#ace discourse //

[a-polite-melody]

Oh actually.

Many of the tumblr queer “discourses” have centred around identities which are erased or invisible.

A common tactic of people trying to deny others language in these “discourses” has been to look at the people describing their less visible experiences with oppression, and then scream at them, “oh my god you just want to be oppressed SO badly!!”

It’s a direct weaponization of the invisibility of the experience to further erase that experience.

Basically an, “obviously, if this was a real problem we would have heard about it before now and so you’re making this up to seem oppressed, even though you’re telling us the reason we don’t see it is because of lack of visibility, we don’t believe you and are further going to erase your experiences.”

[knifearo]

"asexual discourse" is so funny cause dude that's not discourse and it's never been discourse. it's not an argument and it's not a conversation bitches are just yelling at us unprompted and then making up people to get mad at 😭

[resdayn]

whats wild to me is i blocked thousands of people during the peak years of ace discourse. now that its ramping up again (against transmascs this time) when i go to block shitheads they are already on the list. way to say you are still licking TERF (conservative) boots in 2024. embarrassing!

[lovelydisgusting]

no more infighting over identity labels. i just saw a post where op listed various queer identity microlabels, sorted into two categories under "support" and "don't support". It was super silly, but also made me frustrated and sad. so here's my message to my fellow severely online queers: other queer people are not your enemy. you might think their labels are nonsense, or contradictory, or even offensive - learn to accept this. remember what you are fighting for: freedom of identity, freedom of expression, bodily autonomy, liberation from binary-hetero-patriarchy. FOR ALL! playing identity cop is utterly counterproductive to the cause.

[queerum]

aromantics are way too comfortable implying friendship is the most valuable part of life to bitch about alloros doing the same thing with romance

[certifiablyinsanez]

Mammon is great ace representation: an essay on aphobia in the Hellaverse fandom

I’m seeing a lot of people be mad about Mammon having a thing for Leviathan. And I’m going to need the fandom to step back and examine these issues, because they are 100% rooted in aphobia. I have been out as an oriented aroace person for over 10 years if you want to doubt my credentials, rather than listen to my analysis, lived experience and reflect.

So. Tell me Hellaverse fandom; why, when it comes to Alastor, who is a character who very clearly has zero interest in others, it is always a chorus of people saying “aces can have sex”, “aces can enjoy sex”, “it’s not harmful to the ace community to use Alastor for shipping material, he isn’t real and asexuality and aromanticism is a huge spectrum”, “Aroace people can still date and have sex”?

But when it comes to Mammon, he is “bad asexual representation”, he “clearly experiences sexual attraction”, “he can’t be demisexual”, etc.

No genuinely, why is this? I want you to examine this, think on it from a place of neutral examination and come to your own conclusions. Because this is a worrisome double standard. This can for starters, be an instance of fat phobia. Because out of the two of them, Alastor is thin, and therefore closer to the beauty standard, which is hysterical considering that Alastor canonically has horrible hygiene, and I don’t think I know a single person who thinks that stank ass body and breath is attractive. Mammon, as seen from the slovenly way he eats, can potentially be assumed to have poor hygiene as well, but it has a very different connotation because of his weight. [Research the connection between thin privilege and body odor/hygiene. It’s very real].

I can spend a lot of time and energy going into the shipping dynamics between the shows, as well as how Alastor is a more “shippable” character in comparison to Mammon, but I honestly don’t find this as interesting or as compelling as to what I’m about to say next.

Because aphobia in the real world is still very alive and well today. In my 10+ years of being in the ace community, I have genuinely spent a lot of emotional energy, time, knowledge, experience, and compassion, just fighting for the right to even be acknowledged as queer. I have vivid memories from when I was first out of the closet at the age of 16, telling ace people across apps and forums that they were valid, that they weren’t broken, that they were deserving of love, respect, and a place in the queer community. I was telling people, younger, my age, and older that they shouldn’t kill themselves, that they had worth beyond what they could do in the bedroom for others. I had to convince people that they didn’t owe anyone sex, and that they were in fact being sexually abused by their partners. I was on the phone with people in tears. I spent HOURS of my life in these DMs at an age where I was a suffering, mentally ill queer child that was also being victimized by aphobia. Still to this day people think the “A” stands for ally. And still to this day people have discord about our community as a whole. I have had to sit and watch as people went from loudly proclaiming with their whole chest that asexual people didn’t exist, or at the very least weren’t queer. Then years went by and it became less and less okay to say things like that, because asexual people finally had fought long enough and had supported each other enough that we discovered our voices and began to use them. So people were finally facing the consequences of saying bigoted shit.

And now that they can’t say that asexuals aren’t queer, they moved on to another group. Demisexuals. Demisexuals by far have it roughest, because while there are many micro labels in our community to explain our diverse range of experiences, demisexual is probably the most well known one. And every handful of months or so I have to use my voice once again to stand up for my people, because an attack on one of us is an attack on all of us, and people on the internet have made it clear that they have no qualms of attacking us. The asexual and aromantic community have made extremely valuable contributions to the queer community that are entirely overlooked because we are not valued in it.

And this is why I have been an outspoken proponent of my displeasure over Alastor being a character that is the most shipped with others, and my disdain for the fanbase has grown even wider after Mammons appearance in Mastermind. It is a painful reminder of all the discrimination I’ve faced over the years, that my community still goes through. Because people are contrarians. Alastor is canonically asexual, and other aspects of his character are reflective of aromanticism as well. Well, the fanbase doesn’t like this so much. If you genuinely pay attention, you’ll notice this is a trend with a lot of other aroace characters. My favorite example is Peridot from Steven Universe, a canonical aroace character. In the show, Peridot goes through a lot of unlearning and growth. The scene where she tries to fuse with Garnet has massive implications for a few reasons. Because one, she is genuine in her desire to understand Garnet, and fusion better. And two, fusion while forbidden on Homeworld, is commonplace and normal in the Crystal Gems. As a Crystal Gem, she feels this is what is now expected of her. This is a major experience in the aspec community, as living in a cis heteronormative society means that sex, marriage and children are all things expected of each individual, which is dangerous and harmful ideology to everyone, asexual/aromantic people as well. Peridot couldn’t go through with the fusion, but that didn’t stop the fandom salivating, and foaming at the mouth over a potential Lapis/Peridot fusion. People were genuinely mad at Rebecca Sugar for never making that pairing canon, when they had absolutely no right to behave the way they did. Let’s not forget how the fans also misgendered Rebecca Sugar constantly. It was absolutely bigoted.

This is happening with Alastor. Fans feel entitled to ship him with whomever, an entitlement that is not seen with other characters. When people ship Vaggie with Angel, there is backlash, and for good reason. Because people understand that despite the fact that Vivienne Medrano said people can ship whatever, shipping a gay man with a woman and a gay woman with a man is…gross. It is wrong, it is disrespectful of their identities, and is forcing heteronormativity onto characters that are strict in their sexualities. Most people are able to recognize the thinly veiled homophobia. But Alastor does not receive the same treatment, and in fact receives the opposite treatment. I don’t know what I could say to convince you that the aroace coded character in a show being the #1 most shipped is thinly veiled aphobia the same way Vaggie x Angel is thinly veiled homophobia.

Now what does that have to do with Mammon? Mammon seems to not be aroace coded like Alastor, and for some reason, that has thoroughly pissed people off. Because Mammon is not the “acceptable” caricature of an asexual person. Most allosexual (non-asexual and/or aromantic people) view being asexual as being synonymous with being aromantic, which shows a painful lack of understanding and at times respect for the diversity of our community. Alastor fits this category, so he’s an “acceptable asexual”, while also essentially being a toy for shippers. But Mammon, with his clear attraction to Leviathan, is a “bastardization” of the asexual image. When we aren’t being viewed as broken, we’re often being viewed as chaste, virginal, and innocent with attachments to infantilization. But Mammon, with his aggressive and even icky approach to flirting with Leviathan, is seen as a subversion of this, which for people who don’t understand our community, hate. And these people are blaming Vivienne for having “terrible ace rep” when in actuality, having multiple ace characters having very little in common is actually fantastic rep. Because there are many labels in our community that Mammon can fit into as an asexual. To me, he looks like a sex-positive, high libido, demisexual. He’s known Leviathan for thousands of years, of course it makes sense that he would be into her, but not into anyone else which would explain why his “posse” are just female robots. This could also be because of his classism, but I genuinely think that he’s just demisexual. And you already know how people feel about demisexuals.

If you’ve read this far and have genuinely set aside your biases and personal feelings like I requested in the beginning, I appreciate that. Because from my own lived experience, the double standard between Alastor and Mammon doesn’t annoy me; it frightens me.

Because what the fandom is actually saying when they do these things is this:

“We see you as a homogenous group. Your voices go in one ear and out the other. If you don’t conform to our values and standards, we won’t give you the respect or recognition you deserve. If you don’t conform to my view of your group, you lose my “allyship”. We do not see your identity as a sexuality in its own right, but rather a literary device we can play with. I do not care to learn more about your community, your culture, or your struggles. I barely (if at all) acknowledge you as your own sexual minority and marginalized group. I barely acknowledge (if at all) that you are queer at all. I do not care about your feelings about societal biases that I might carry, I don’t care about how you’ve lived it, because it takes away my fun and fantasies. Because I devalue your group as a whole, your voices mean little. Your narrative is mine to do with as I please.”

I really hope you can see my perspective and understand the sincere place this comes from. Thanks for reading.

[xx-slug-xx]

“Your fantasies equal your real life desires”

I’m fucking asexual? I have no desire to do anything I fantasize about irl. Same with a shit ton of other people who are aspec?

Tbh, I think it’s just queerphobic, specifically aphobic but other shit too, to say “your fantasies are what you want irl.

It’s not just aspecs either. I know a fuck ton of lesbians who fantasize about fictional men. They are not any less lesbians because of their fantasies though.

I could go on with more about how it’s a stupid argument, and even how it’s ableist in certain contexts, but I’ll save that for other posts lmao

[aroace-ventplace]

…can’t believe i need to say this in 2024, but if you see a tumblr blog that’s an obvious sockpuppet, just block them. don’t give them any attention.

for those who weren’t aware, a sockpuppet is an account that someone uses to pretend to be someone they aren't, usually for the sake of accomplishing a particular goal. "asexual" sockpuppets were used extensively in tumblr's ace discourse years (which reached their peak in 2016-2019). aphobes and exclusionists made blogs where they roleplayed as exaggerated aspec caricatures, trying to paint asexuals as childish, ignorant, bigoted, etc - in a word, "cringey." crazey-acey-in-spacey was an especially notorious example of a sockpuppet that a lot of people took at face value, since their deliberately outrageous behavior (falsely) confirmed a lot of the biases tumblr users already had about aspecs. it's NEVER worth engaging with any of these accounts - don't feed the trolls, as they used to say.

ways to spot an "asexual" sockpuppet:

makes a lot of statements that are intentionally tone-deaf and offensive. especially look out for sudden mentions of race/analogies to racism ("ace genocide," "ace reparations") - a common tactic in the acecourse days was to paint asexuality as a "white" orientation, and to suggest asexuals were racist.

references other infamous sockpuppets like crazy-acey and the "warm milk aceggot" post.

makes claims about famous people being aspec, especially people who are known for bigoted beliefs. it was very common for aphobes to make asexual moodboards of people like thatcher or trump; they did this to paint aspecs as out of touch with reality and the wider queer community, and to strengthen the association between asexuality and bigotry.

use of the words "acey" or "asexy." some people do use these words in a positive sense now, but anti-aspec shit-stirrers used them a lot back in the day to imply asexuals were stupid and childish. (and if we're being honest? autistic, too. the aphobic parts of tumblr had a VERY strong undercurrent of ableism.)

this one's a bit less common, but watch out for references to christianity. one widespread aphobic talking point is calling asexuals "puritans" and suggesting that they're aligned more with conservative christianity than the rest of the queer community. aspec christians certainly exist, but given the history of this site, it's just better to double-check aspec accounts that bring up christianity out of the blue when they're engaging with other blogs.

it can be hard to tell the difference between a sockpuppet and a genuine aspec account if you don't have the exact same amount of 2016 tumblr brainrot as me, so feel free to message me and ask about anything you're not sure about - my dms are always open 👍

[heartless-aro]

There’s no tumblr experience more aspec than having to go to the search bar on someone’s blog and search “asexual” or “aromantic” before following to make sure they weren’t Like That about aspecs back in 2016

[imsoglitter]

Apparently there's people trying to justify the (ongoing) exclusion era of this website by saying that the ace community is the source of no kink at pride discourse. Now I realize that my experiences aren't necessarily universal, but given that every acespec person I've met irl is super into kink, and most of the ones I've encountered online are as well, I think that perhaps they are just making up bullshit again

[chisecco]

tbh i miss when ace discourse didnt exist and being lgbt or queer wasnt a competition on how oppressed and miserable you could be in the eyes of internet strangers

like when you could just say "i am not cis and/or straight therefore i am one of you" and people would receive you with open arms instead of saying that your identity that goes beyond the acronym is invalid and harassing you with death threats and sending you gore and snuff just because you dont exactly fit under The Big Four Letters

[a-polite-melody]

Imagine seeing an oppressed group of people saying, “hey we’re oppressed in ways that you’re unaware of for A Reason—erasure,”

and responding by going, “actually it’s because that oppression doesn’t exist,” like you’re So Obviously Correct and not directly contributing to The Problem.

[anarcho-catboyism]

If you were someone who was anti-Ace during Ace Discourse and anti-Neopronouns/Xenogenders during Neo/Xeno Discourse and anti-Nonbinary during Nonbinary Discourse, but you've now accepted those things, except now you're Anti-Bi Lesbian, then you never learned why what you were doing was wrong and simply followed the crowd.

You still have internalized phobias that you never addressed, you still have issues regarding controlling other people's queer experiences, and until you actually and genuinely sit back and realize WHY being Anti-Ace, Anti-Neos/Xenos, Anti-Nonbinary etc. Was wrong, you are always going to be the bigot in the community. Learn self introspection, learn why you continued to be against queer identities you didn't understand, or you will always find yourself on the wrong side of the goalpost, and you will never grow.

Take a second to think about an argumentative sentence you've used and replace "bi lesbian" with any other queer identity you used to hate and you'll realize that at the root of it all, it's the same queerphobia but with a new subject to target.

[resdayn]

yet another parallel between ace discourse and transmasc discourse:

2017: "aces arent nearly as oppressed as lesbians so they dont need to be in the community! nobody is hatecrimed for being ace."

"2024: "trans men arent nearly as oppressed as trans women so they dont belong in the community! nobody gets mad at someone becoming more masculine."

Meanwhile, aces face the highest rates of conversion therapy among ALL queer people. Transmascs have the highest rates of suicide and sexual assault among all trans people. This will be true whether exclusionists like it or not. Oppression is not a competition. Anyone who acts like it is reveals their own fundamental misunderstanding of intersectionality and queer solidarity.

[hiriamcdaniels]

Don't make me tap the sign

[a-frog-in-a-bog]

I keep seeing posts about how damaging ace discourse was to aces and while I’m glad we’re talking about tumblr’s bullying problem I think some of you have selective amnesia bc the war was DEFINITELY being fought from both sides. For every post calling asexuals cringe or lonely turbo virgins there was at least one reply or comment or post saying shit like “ok have fun dying of aids” or “I’m a bi ace which is exactly the same as being bisexual except I’m not a slut” or “ace culture is not having to worry about spreading STDs”.

Nearly every post made by a trans woman discussing transphobia was derailed by someone making it about asexuality instead (unfortunately this is still common on tumblr) and posts about gay sex or attraction were flooded with comments about those nasty dirty allos. Lesbians who expressed frustration about not being able to talk about their sexual attraction to women without aces “fixing” their posts to make them pure and wholesome were characterized as mean dykes and aphobic. And the shit that people posted after the pulse shooting was thinly veiled homophobia— do you know how many posts I saw that were along the lines of “well maybe if you gays were nicer to aces we’d donate blood” or “ace culture is hearing about the pulse shooting and wondering who would want to go dancing at a sweaty club when you could be home reading”.

And idk if people realize this but kink at pride discourse was born from ace discourse. The sheer amount of posts that were like “stop sucking face at pride I’m ace and it grosses me out get a room” or “pride is supposed to be a safe space for aces too nobody cares that you like to get tied up and fucked in the ass” or “as an aroace it makes me uncomfortable to see people wear nothing but leather harnesses stop making pride sexual”.

We absolutely should be calling out the people who posted graphic porn in the ace tag or harassed aces by calling them broken and unloveable bc that’s fucking horrendous and unacceptable but don’t act like every asexual on tumblr was an innocent smol bean posting garlic bread memes and minding their business bc the shit thrown at lgbt people in the name of ace discourse was awful and damaging to see, especially as a teen coming to terms with my sexuality