#SU critical

[sophieabigail2021]

"How fandom react to criticism" wheel

[saiscribbles]

Lily Orchard STILL Doesn't Understand Steven Universe

I decided to round out the year by ending Lily Orchard's whole career.

Fair warning: I swear. Alot. Alot alot.

About a month ago I decided to react to Lily's two most recent Steven Universe videos from 2023 on my weekly art stream. The reacts ended up going so well I have now edited them down into one comprehensive video with visual aids and gags along the way.

So if you ever wanted to hear me clown on an SU hater for 2 hours while giggling incessantly, making gremlin noises, explaining SU and info dumping all of my own headcanons... well now you have that!

Here's to me becoming more of an unleashed gremlin in the new year.

[hoaxghost]

Which SU defense videos were you watching? I could use some positivity tbh

Two videos made by Hiding in Private break down notorious SU-criticism videos

First one is taking down the arguments of EzPz and E;R, two really bigoted content creators that gained WAAY too much traction considering they're just repackaging racism/homophobia/misogyny as 'funny memes'

Next is critiquing the SU analysis by Lily Orchid whose video was full of bad-faith interpretations, misunderstanding of how cartoon plots work and poisoned the discourse on the show for a good while.

There are a few minor gripes I have with how HidinginPrivate handles some critiques in the latter video but they overall summarize a lot of my issues with SU-discourse. It's a good show!! I'm tired of pretending that it's cringe!!!

[funhouse-mirror-barbie]

I really don’t mean this to sound rude at all but like…

What is the point of having celebrity voice actors or guest-stars if it means you either:

1. Can never have another episode or plot line with that character

Or

2. Have to replace the celebrity voice actor with an actual voice actor for all future appearances???

It’s one thing if it’s like. A one time character or cameo. That sort of thing works for shows like Bob’s Burgers, which is extremely episodic, or if it’s for a character that is only relevant for one episode, and isn’t going to make future appearances.

But for characters that have plot-relevance, or that you want to showcase a lot…well…what’s the point?? It’s maybe ONE thing if you do have a really huge budget, but indie shows doing this seems really counter-intuitive.

What was really the point of having Norman Reedus voice Striker if they couldn’t afford to bring him back? Especially when Edward Bosco who has taken over the roll could have done an absolutely wonderful job with striker from the beginning?

I’m not asking this to say that Norman Reedus did a bad job. He’s a very talented actor, but the only reason to have him come on the show seems to be for clout? Which is really bizarre to me.

It reminds me of when Steven Universe had Nicki Minaj on the show as Sugilite. I LOVE Sugilite, and I think Nicki did a fantastic job voicing her, but I can’t help but wonder if we’d have gotten more of her if a voice actress had been hired to play her.

I’d like to see more of Bee, but the likelihood of her ever showing up again is very little, unless they get someone else to voice her.

Same thing with the new celebrity VAs they have slated for future HB episodes. And yes, it is very cool to have John Waters voice a character for you. But I wonder if he’ll ever be a part of the story or main cast, or if he’ll come in and we’ll just never see his character again.

It makes me think of when an animated movie comes out and all the trailers have long lists of A list celebrities who are in the movie, but don’t really showcase the story or animation.

HB having celebrity voice actors never feels like they chose the VA because they were the best person for the job. It comes off as getting celebrities to drum up hype and pull in more viewers. Which I mean. You can do! That’s fine.

But it may mean that we’ll either never see those characters in speaking rolls again, or that they’ll have to bring in a less expensive VA after the fact for all future appearances.

And if that’s the case then. Again, what’s the real point???

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

i really desperately need someone to teach writers that redemption doesn’t require forgiveness. you can redeem a villain without making their victims forgive them for all their horrible crimes. it’s completely possible, i promise you.

[autistic-ben-tennyson]

Steven Universe: A Complicated Relationship

I’m starting to fall out of love with this show. I used to be obsessed with it and it was important to me as a way of figuring out my gender and sexuality. Yet, my relationship to it has become more complicated as of late. I’ve defended it myself and have been passionate about it, yet seeing the way a lot of stans have acted has kind of ruined it for me especially due to dismissing any criticism. This is not me saying I hate it or think it’s irredeemable Nazi propaganda but not everyone who dislikes it watches Lily Orchard and there are valid things to criticize about it.

There’s definitely bad faith criticism of the show such as flanderizing Steven into a crybaby with those Jack Horner/Hitler memes or claiming it was made to attack Christians but some people do have valid points. The episodes Bismuth and Gem Harvest may have not intended to come off as racist but one could interpret them as forcing people to forgive their abusers or bigoted relatives. As someone who’s Asian and knows about the way we’re represented, the way Priyanka and Doug were portrayed in the early seasons as tiger parents has not aged well.

One other criticism I’ve seen is that the show copies a lot of old sci fi or anime tropes without recognizing the issues with them or removing them from their original context. I and others have compared the show’s ending to the Highbreed arc from Ben 10 Alien Force. The difference is that the Highbreed were treated as supremacists who needed to be stopped, not as abusive family. People can debate over whether they should have gotten more consequences but they were not treated as dorky relatives. The only one Ben befriends was a low ranking officer who became the new leader and convinced the high council to accept having their DNA changed. There’s also the human zoo, another sci fi trope that’s aged badly with the racist implications.

The series is also compared to a lot of anime. There’s references to Ghibli, NGE, Sailor Moon and Dragon Ball and many have compared the show’s idealism to that of magical girl shows like Madoka Magica. The difference is that those shows didn’t use subjects like colonialism as a backdrop for family drama. SW suffers from that as well especially with the rebels only wanting to restore the old liberal system while taking imagery from the Viet Cong. People who wanted a revolution story weren’t necessarily wrong as that’s what the early seasons did set up.

Some will accuse me of fandomizing the war but I’ve noticed a lot of the hardcore stans are white queers who support Israel or demand complete support for democrats. Not saying every SU fan is a bad person btw. There are a lot of decent people who are anti Zionist and like the show but a lot of these pop progressive cartoons as well as SW, Disney and Marvel/DC are used by people with gross beliefs to infantilize themselves and dismiss any criticism from POC fans. If mainstream kids media is where you’re getting your all political takes from then maybe you do need to branch out and watch more mature stuff. Watching NGE helped me grow up a lot and learn nuance.

As a recap, I’m not saying SU is a bad show or that people are bad for liking it. It was important for my own development as well as a lot of lgbt youth and was a jumping point for a lot of my current interests such as classic anime or Lisa Hannigan, who’s an amazing musician and is pro Palestine btw. Future did help me a bit with mental health yet people are allowed to dislike it or find that even if it wasn’t intentional, there are some implications that should be addressed. I don’t hate it and there’s some stuff worth defending in it but it’s not the greatest show ever and people who get all their politics from it need to grow up. Between it, TOH, Dead End and She-Ra, I think a lot of the pop progressive media that we have today will not age well and that’s something we need to accept.

[blackfilmmakers]

Imagine creating the Ghana flag in order to replace the UK flag and rid of it's colonization influence over your country, only for Ian Jones and Rebecca Sugar to be your grandchildren

I'd haunt them!!!

THEY WENT OUT OF THEIR WAY TO MAKE US FEEL BAD FOR THE COLONIZERS I CAN’T STAND IT-

[almacambiondaughterofsaleos]

Greg Universe Is A Better Dad Than Stolas, But His Actions Are Treated With More Scrutiny Than That Bird Brain

It's funny how the Steven Universe narrative treats Greg harshly for his decisions regarding Steve while Stolas is given "he's doing his best" treatment each time it's apparent he's a shitty dad. Again what really threw of Steven Universe Future is when they rag him for not wanting to bring up his issues with his families for a good reason. The guys were control freaks and he didn't want that for his son. And again he did everything he can to help his kid despite not fully understanding his half Gem status. And funny enough he owns up to his mistakes when his son almost crashes their truck because at least he feels his son was secure enough to stand up to him.

However, that is with contrast with Stolas which the narrative tries it's hardest to absolve him of any wrongdoing even when it's apparent he's neglecting his daughter because of it. The narrative tries to hammer in the idea of how much of a good father he's shilled up as but never shows it in actions. He frequently thinks more of his boy toy than her and often gets distracted by his own petty slights against Stella and obsession with Blitzo. He makes a big deal about how much she means to him but in priorities he's push her aside to fulfill what he thinks is entitled to be happy. If he really loved her then the narrative would give him excuses on him cheating and why it was justified because she was hurt by it and still is. The narrative unlike Steven Universe doesn't seem to care how badly his actions affected her while Greg's actions are put under a microscope in contrast where the Gems seem to get a pass.

I am going to be honest I do think the narrative treats Greg harsher than the Gems who were doing more of the lionshare of baggage but get coddled in a way similar to Stolas. However, Greg is bashed for not taking him to the doctor even who knows what could happen along with proper school. I feel it same with Stolas whose issues are brushed off as just being a result of Stella instead of admitting directly he's the main cause despite the retconning. Stolas is kind of like a worse version of the Gems where their baggage they foist on their child isn't treated as that big but narrative but they project onto another character to keep them from scrutiny. And in so many ways it makes Greg and Stella the scrapegoat of the narrative so that their favored characters have the heap of issues pushed on them.

[afriendlyirin]

SU fans: "Steven Universe was so culturally important and life-changing in how it taught kids about love and acceptance and LGBT representation!"

Also SU fans: "People who criticize SU are stupid, don't they know it's just a dumb baby show for babies that doesn't mean anything?"

[gartenofbanny]

Helluva Boss and Steven Universe honestly share the problem (more specifically Steven Universe after Season 1), that being both shows set up plot points but don't even mention those plot points for a long time until certain episodes are released.

Both series waste the audience's time with pointless filler episodes without even mentioning or hinting at what happened beforehand. Though Helluva Boss is a bit worse because not only does Helluva Boss ignore the antagonists within the show, the writers instead add more antagonists within the show only for those antagonists to be ignored for pointless filler episodes.

While Steven Universe managed to actually conclude (with a pretty rushed conclusion) and only had one major threat The Diamonds, Helluva Boss just keeps adding major threats and doesn't even have a clear end goal.

What's gonna happen after every single one of Helluva Boss's antagonist gets defeated? Are all of the characters just gonna have a fucking orgy? Actually..this is Helluva Boss we're talking about I'm pretty sure Vivziepop will make that into a joke since she liked fucking Sausage Party.

But will this show even end? Less and less people are viewing the episodes (Unhappy Campers doesn't even have 10 mil views as of posting this), less and less people are buying the merch, and more and more people are leaving Spindlehorse entirely. Not to mention the new anonymous reviews about Spindlehorse that have been shared to the public.

The strike that's going on is possibly affecting the release of both Hazbin Hotel and Helluva Boss and considering that people are starting to become more and more critical of Helluva Boss imagine what the overall public will think of Hazbin Hotel once that show releases.

A24 has done fuck all to actually advertise it and for possibly good reason, I mean they were working with Vivziepop of all people.

So at worst Helluva Boss will be cancelled or will still go on with albeit very long episode releases which doesn't go well especially with poorly written shows. Since the audience will just lose interest overtime and watch the next big thing (most likely Lackadaisy).

How did I go from comparing two poorly written shows to predicting how Helluva Boss would fall off even deeper? I don't know, it's 11 pm in Texas and I just had a thought that turned into like 4.

Anyway, goodnight everyone ❤️

[vinization]

Random thought, but I think people would've been a lot happier with Steven Universe's ending if the Diamonds (or even just White Diamond) had a fate similar to that of King Andrias from Amphibia. Like, sure, he was redeemed too, but he also got at least SOME kind of punishment for his crimes, as opposed to getting away with them completely scot-free.

[sophieabigail2021]

[weaselbeaselpants]

Hold it, hold it- HOLD ON.

So SaiScribbles is bringing to light the fact that, on top of everything else alleged about her, Lily's most popular video has a lot of pieces ripped from two articles written by Jaimie Kingston (WuhWack, need link) and Riley H (Medium) complaining about SU's racial problems.

Other than being a bit on that 2016-2019"your fav thing is bad and you should feel bad"-spectrum of criticism that would later fuel our dumb anti v proship discourse we have today, I think the arguments made by Jaimie and Riley against SU are solid. Sai and her commenters are kind of otherwise treating the criticisms themselves like they're the problem and that they ought to be 'debunked'.

As I've stated a few times now, I'm a fan of Steven Universe and even I don't think they handled all the discussions of race and conflicts well. I like the Diamonds as villains and liked them being 'redeemed' -yes, SU truthers, I too have read Rebecca's explanation and how Steven doesn't really forgive the Diamonds. I know that's the intent, mine and other people's counter is that wasn't very well communicated or done particularly well, and yeah no matter how you spin it or put it in the context of fiction; the Diamonds were interspace war and overlords and the series and Steven himself made peace with them- Also, I thought the Garnet anti-racism psa was kind of in bad taste and talking-down to it's audience.

As far as complaints I'm not able to speak for because I'm white as fucc: if Sugalite's design, the human zoo plot, the way the crewniverse drew lips and people of color (AS people of color themselves) is uncomfortable or offensive to you- you're within your right to be offended about it and dislike Steven Universe on that basis. Don't let anyone tell you otherwise. Just because an LGBTQ or BIPOC person had a hand in making something does not mean it can't still be offensive: Velma, The Nutshack, Hazbin Hotel and Netflix's Good Times, though shows for adults, were written with/by/for bipoc folks-- that DOES NOT mean there aren't any problems with those series. I can personally think SU beats all those shows into the ground but that doesn't mean it can't be racist just cuz I don't want it to be.

I kinda feel like Sai is missing some of the point of the og articles, dunking on them for ever making these complaints and being upset, when the real focus should be on how Lily pulled an honest to god James Somerton.

What Lily did with Jaimie Kingston and Riley's is proof of her greatest flaw as a critic and activist: she uses (or 'steals') other people's criticisms to fuel her own hatred of something. Moreover, she phrases these criticisms made about the thing she hates as being an inherent moral failing on people who defend it and so her takes are the correct way to feel and think. That was not the point of either article, regardless of how I think they were written. These articles were written as a potential call-out at worst*, Lily's vid was a straight up attack on the Steven Universe fanbase as a whole.

Lily can try to say otherwise, but what she's really angry about is that Steven Universe wasn't written exactly like how she wanted and she's pissy because the fanbase was and is still really toxic. Both these reasons are valid enough to be all 'ick, I hate SU and I hate how god damn in love the fans are with every aspect of it'. You can fill up an entire video with just rants about the fanbase and the writing quality. If you don't know how/don't CARE TO articulate, add upon, link, or source another perspective that's not your own, DON'T TOUCH UPON THOSE TOPICS.

This is why I otherwise leave out the criticisms to be had against Star vs the Forces of Evil's diversity activism fails. I have 'thoughts' on it, as a white fan watching a show by a white creator about a white girl trying to be an ally, but my point in omitting them from this discussion is not to say these problems aren't there and worth talking about. I don't have faith in my own social awareness to talk about these issues I don't have a perspective on. I can talk of them, but not about them.

Even if Lily is native, which she could be (not what this post is about), she is not black. She sat here talking for black people using black people's words as if they were her own -> blocked these writers for stealing from her. And then she[Lily] went and made a couple dozen Nazi-references to the whole issue of genocide in the show -> when Jewish fans and listeners told Lily to maybe not do that (especially cuz Rebecca Sugar is Jewish), Lily dismissed, blasted or blocked them outright.

Lily only cares about social justice when she can use it to benefit herself and her own selfish ideas, feelings and wants.

Allies (of any kind, speaking for a group they aren't a part of) may be misinformed, apologetic, ignorant, rude or abrasive in how they go about their activism. There's no exact right way to do any of this. But, there is always a wrong way.

[sprucedarkstache]

how the fuck can you call Connie Maheswaran a bad/abusive girlfriend and then turn around and ship Catradora???

There were no instances ever where Connie performed any semblance of abuse on Steven. She may have snapped a few times, but she never did it to harm Steven. She constantly supported him for who he truly was instead of the image of Rose he was forced into. And before you go “oh, but look how she reacted to his proposal!”

She and Steven WERENT EVEN LEGAL ADULTS. She stated that, and set a boundary. Setting boundaries IS NOT ABUSE.

Meanwhile, you have Catradora. The ship where Catra constantly scratched and verbally berated Adora, even through her supposed redemption arc, and all of it is forgiven by fans and the narrative because she has a tragic backstory and kissed Adora in the last episode. (And not to mention, they were stated to be sisters MANY TIMES)

I get that Steven Universe has a multitude of flaws. I also don’t HATE She-Ra as a piece of media. Both of these shows are shows I was raised on. I just refuse to allow hypocrisy go on. I’m an old man shaking my fist but I’ve seen this argument a little too much for my liking. Thank you and good night.

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

their crimes and problems with their redemption arcs under the cut!

catra:

crimes:

War crimes

Abuse of power

Corruption

Reckless endangerment

Psychological abuse

Assault

Terrorism

Attempted regicide

Attempted mass murder

Attempted world domination

Attempted cataclysm

Conspiracy

Mass destruction

Abduction & kidnapping

Unlawful imprisonment

Brainwashing

Theft

Torture

Treason

Usurpation

Coercion

Stalking

Mutilation

Aiding and abetting

Illegal use of weapons

Espionage

Crimes against peace

Crimes against Etheria

Altering reality

how was her redemption arc carried out?

she was only redeemed in the final season and her arc wasn't as drawn out as it should have been.

she never faces any consequences of her actions and is forgiven by her victims almost immediately, either after a vague apology or no apology at all.

she continues torturing and abusing people around her, especially her love interest, adora. her redemption arc doesn't mean anything since she never actually changes.

the diamonds:

crimes:

Multiple planetary conquests

Mass invasion

Mass terraformation

Attempted omnicide

Crimes against the universe

Cruel and unusual punishments

Unlawful executions

Slavery

Oppression

Propaganda

Abuse of power

Mass murder

Terrorism

Ecocide

Genocide

War crimes

Hate crimes

Corruption

Psychological abuse

Brainwashing

Unethical experimentation

Mass forced confinement

Mass destruction

Mass forced transmutations

how was their redemption arc carried out?

same as catra, their redemption was done during the final few episodes of steven universe, and it was way too sudden to be realistic.

they never face any consequences of their actions and still gets to retain their positions as cosmic rulers.

they do, however, seem to put in some effort to change, although it's not clear if this is helpful. steven also does not seem to forgive them.

lilith clawthorne:

crimes:

Malediction

Attempted murder

Child endangerment

Hostage-taking

Kidnapping

Coercion

Malefic

Treason

Cheating

Torture

Abuse

Assault

Aiding and abetting

how was her redemption arc carried out?

she only had to make one sacrifice and that was the extent of her redemption arc.

she is also forgiven too quickly by the people she had hurt.

she does change for the better, and proves to be an ally to the heroes (albeit being an underutilized character).

sasha waybright:

crimes:

Abuse of power

Psychological abuse

Attempted murder

Treason

Terrorism

Harassment

Vandalism

Theft

Usurpation

Animal cruelty

Conspiracy

Kidnapping

Incrimination

Sabotage

Child endangerment

how was her redemption arc carried out?

we only see the beginning of her redemption, the rest of it happens almost entirely off-screen. this was a lazy choice, as we never see an actual “arc”, only the beginning and the end of it.

she is almost immediately forgiven by her friends. there is some lingering suspicion in some episodes, but not enough for everything she had done prior to that season.

however, she also seems to have turned into a better person and doesn't repeat any of her past toxic behaviour.

[emma-o-yt]

The Diamond Authority is not a metaphor for abusive family.

I don't understand why Steven Universe fans are so pretentious, do they think a basic figure of speech makes Steven Universe deep or something? So metaphors are a comparison of two separate things or concepts by calling one thing another, example: "She was a lion, roaring at the crowd". The woman's shouts at the crowd are compared to the roars of a lion in order to exaggerate, create interesting prose and imagery and also give depth to her action.

SU fans argue that the Diamonds are just a metaphor for abusive family. But, that's not what a metaphor is since they quite literally are just an abusive family. They aren't exactly like a human family but they are the gem equivalent.

But what about them being a fascist dictatorship? That's not a "metaphor" for abusive parents (and it would be a terrible one anyways). Remember, the other gems are not treated as family but as subjects, so they are automatically left out. They're like Ozai, abusive parents and dictators.

The "abusive family" thing isn't even a thing until like season 5. Before that, they are the manifestation of society's ills (eugenics, homophobia, genocide), and the impact they have is mostly on the other gems, not Steven. They are two separate thing (and neither are done well https://www.reddit.com/r/CharacterRant/comments/1aupslu/steven_universe_the_victim_blaming_of_rose/).

Also, Steven Universe has the racist relative already in the form of Andy Demayo, the fact that they addressed this archetype already leads me to believe the Diamonds are more than that.

You can't complain about "media literacy" when you don't have any yourself. It's a kids' show for fuck's sake.

Side note: So glad Encanto and Turning Red came out and blew SU out of the water with their stories on abusive family and interpersonal relationships.