#SNW Meta

[i-dont-know-nor-care-go-away]

St:SNW rant

I just saw the most amazing gifset of that moment in momento mori where chapel tells una "it's like giving birth through your mouth" (edit : it was @startrekuniverse who made the dope gif set, I love you btw)

Una and Christine are the MOST UNDERRATED dynamic. Genuinely I need to see them interact more. I've said before I don't think that T'pring is Christine's character mirror foil or whatever bc she isn't really. Una is the opposite of Christine.

Una is so put together. She is the literal poster person of first officers. She is always put together and just radiates dignity. (Somehow she gives like. Teacher vibes but I can't see her teaching a specific subject?? Maybe she just authority-s so hard I'm getting confused idk) She has been trying to be the picture perfect officer for years. She said it her self, she worries how people would see her (as an illiyern(fuck spelling I'm tired)) if she wasn't Ms. "She's beauty she's grace she's gonna punch you in the face" Because she hasn't ever had the chance to exist in starfleet without that threat of being discovered, she holds her self to this impossible standard that she some how achieves. Outside of that, she is a silly little workaholic who loves her job a little too much at times. (I mean. Tbf it's STARFLEET I'd also love it)

Compare that polished, put together-Ness of a first officer to someone who didn't even technically join starfleet, Chrsitine is part of an exchange program. (I'm only considering snw, sorry) Christine is bouncy and open as soon as we meet her, she sasses back at La'an and jokingly flirts with spock. She has the worst bedside manner and loves to chase people down hallways. Her reaction to Una bring Illiriyan was basically "I'm not a cop, I'm cool with it" She radiates weird girl in the best way possible. We see her be messy in relationships and goof off here and there. (Can you tell I hyperfixate on her all the time?) Uhura is "unburdened by conversational boundaries" and will say things on accident, Christine will say the weird thing and she will say it with her chest.

Christine is so unabashedly herself while Una is always on duty as the first officer, so professional. Una ties a lot of herself to her job and Christine loves science to the point she will chase it to other planets, she isn't tied to the ship.

There is so much space for tension and conflict between them. I can see Christine making a joke during a hard time and Una snaps. Maybe Una makes a tough call command wise that Christine disagrees with because they could've done something, the head vs the heart. They would also make an excellent team, Una with her tactical experience while Christine has science and leaps of faith.

You know those videos where the magnets are on a track and they collide really hard and the thing in the middle gets fucked up? That's what I want with them. I know im seeing the shrimp dynamics but I swear something there is worth exploring I SWEAR

[mai-komagata]

so i rewatched arena last night

takeaways:

they say they don't recognize the ship -- that is fine, they can get different ships in like 8 years, the federation probably doesn't have a catalog of all their vessels.

they don't seem particularly confused as to what the gorn are -- you can read it as "they have never heard of it before" but they don't actually say that. Uhura seems pretty horrified to hear about the gorn. Which tracks.

Colony being destroyed and colonists being in melty face mode tracks with gorn doing what they do to colonies.

This being a weird territorial dispute is not a bad angle -- federation thinks they are to blame, but maybe those are there ritual breeding grounds and we are impinging.

Kirk feels revulsion at the gorn, which tracks our experience of them so far.

Juveniles being super fast and agile and old gorn being lumbering but super strong tracks with a lot of lizard species.

I liked the "these are incomprehensible evil creatures" angle in arena, and I think that meshes with xenomorph experience, in a way simply lizard suit + alien language wouldn't for modern audiences.

Kirk (and Spock) showing compassion for the gorn angle is def interesting. And def more hearfelt if you have all this gorn history, which would make compassion difficult. You'd hope Kirk would generally have compassion for a random alien species. But it makes a more compelling narrative if they have thus far been presented as incomprehensible monsters until Arena, because then the compassion is more radical, and the encounter with the Metrons made them realize otherwise.

[wwillywonka]

rewatching where no man has gone before and it's wild how different spock's characterisation is in this versus the rest of the series. like i know logically (haha) that the episode was so early that the show and nimoy didn't really have a grasp on the character yet (made evident by the "one of my ancestors married a human woman" line), but it also strikes me that this is technically kirk's first episode in timeline (production) order, meaning jim and spock have barely started to get to know each other. it's obvious from the chess game that they're already very close and likely have been joined at the hip since their very first meeting, so i like to think that spock is almost, ya know, giddy at this point, adjusting to the comforting warmth and joy and security he feels just by being around jim all the time because it's all so new, because he's never had anything like this before. spock likes jim so much and so immediately and wants to get to know him better and feels safe enough around him to let jim get to know him better, too. the interaction at the end, "i felt for him, too" and "there might be some hope for you yet, mr. spock." followed by a very not-subtle, fond smile from our dear vulcan first officer, just stands out so much against the rest of the series. young spock and his brand new blossoming crush for his captain and he hasn't gotten to the point where he's afraid of those feelings yet, just basking in how nice it feels to have a proper friend. so damn cute. it fills me with butterflies.

[lostyesterday]

I was curious about which Star Trek shows had the most human vs non-human characters, so I made this graph. I counted all major characters plus characters who were in at least 10 episodes of each respective show (with a few exceptions for incredibly minor characters who are technically in more than ten episodes but have barely any/no lines). A full list of characters included is below the cut.

TOS:

Part/Non-Human: Spock

Human: Kirk, Mccoy, Scotty, Uhura, Sulu, Chekov, Chapel

TNG:

Part/Non-Human: Data, Troi, Worf, Guinan

Human: Picard, Riker, La Forge, Crusher, Wesley, Yar, Pulaski, O’Brien, Ogawa

DS9:

Part/Non-Human: Kira, Odo, Quark, Jadzia, Rom, Nog, Garak, Dukat, Worf, Weyoun, Martok, Leeta, Ezri, Damar, Female Changeling, Winn

Human: Sisko, Bashir, Jake, O’Brien, Keiko, Kasidy, Ross

VOY:

Part/Non-Human: Torres, Neelix, EMH, Tuvok, Kes, Seven (part Borg counts as not entirely human to me), Seska, Naomi, Icheb

Human: Janeway, Chakotay, Paris, Kim

ENT:

Part/Non-Human: T’Pol, Phlox, Soval, Shran

Human: Archer, Reed, Tucker, Sato, Mayweather, Forrest

DIS:

Part/Non-Human: Saru, Tyler (debatable but I’m counting him as partly non-human), L’Rell, Book, T’Rina, Nhan, Rillak, Linus, Zora, Adira (again, debatable, but they’ve got a symbiont so they’re not entirely human to me), Gray

Human: Burnham, Stamets (complicated case but I counted him as still human), Tilly, Culber, Lorca (mirror universe characters are still human, I think), Georgiou, Detmer, Owosekun, Rhys, Bryce, Cornwell, Airiam (she’s still human), Pike, Jett, Nilsson, Pollard, Vance

PIC:

Part/Non-Human: Picard (for part of the show at least), Elnor, Soji, Narek, Seven, Laris/Talinn (I am just pretending they’re the same character for simplicity), Jack (I guess???)

Human: Musiker, Jurati, Rios, Adam, Riker, Crusher, Shaw, Sidney

LWD:

Part/Non-Human: Tendi, Shaxs, T’Ana, Barnes, Kayshon

Human: Mariner, Boimler, Rutherford, Freeman, Ransom, Billups

PRO:

Part/Non-Human: Dal, Gwyn, Zero, Rok-Tahk, Jankom, Murf, Hologram Janeway, Diviner, Drednok

SNW:

Part/Non-Human: Spock, Una, Hemmer

Human: Pike, La’an, Uhura, Chapel, M’Benga, Ortegas

[tinderbox210]

Personally, I don't think it would be so easy for La'an to drop the name, because even with all of the bad history attached to it, it's still like the only connection she has left of her dead family.

Sure she could take a different random name or the maiden name if possible, but then she would still loose at least a part of that connection. I'm sure there's also psychological factors coming into play that makes her hold on to the name despite the stigma attached to it, like survivor's guilt making her feel like maybe she would betray her parents and brother's memory if she dropped the name.

As for why her parents or ancestors never changed the name... who knows if they were even allowed to drop the name under the anti-augmentation laws. I think after what happened with Khan, it's not far fetched to assume people wanted to keep an eye on and track the remaining augments and their offsprings, so changing names/identities might not have been a real possibility, and then 200 years passed in which the name became their own.

I wish the show would explore that part of La'an's history and explain it more instead of only mentioning it on the sideline.

La'an Noonien-Singh: "I was relentlessly bullied for having the surname of one of Earth's worst dictators."

Ortegas: "Did you ever think about, I don't know, using a different surname? Like, what was your mother's maiden name?"

La'an Noonien-Singh: "My mother was named Sa'an Hitler-Mussolini."

Ortegas: "Well, fuck."

[discoonthegrass]

Kirk-drift is so prominent. I have a friend who is a SNW fan and she refuses to watch TOS since she heard Kirk is a sexist, racist, narcissistic asshole who only cares about himself. She says that she likes SNW for attempting to redeem his character.... meanwhile TOS Kirk is none of those things and is arguably very similar to his SNW characterization.

I literally don't understand 😭

[onwhatcaptain]

To Star Trek TOS fans that say "TOS was so bad, but I love it."

One thing I noticed is that Star Trek TOS fans really will throw their own show under the bus out of pure self-consciousness. Star Trek TOS fans hate themselves a bit and will immediately make it known so others won't attack them for liking it, as if pre-emptively admitting TOS was bad will protect them from any criticism of it. They'll be like "yeah I know it's garbage YEAH everything sucks the plots the costumes the effects the acting blah blah BUT I LOVE IT!"

I mean, not really. Actually, I don't think it's bad. I think plenty of it is fantastic and has some misses and moments that warrant criticism... like everything does.

But frankly, it's no worse than shows they make today. I mean, Riverdale exists. Even Star Trek today can be garbage, like the SNW episode where they said Spock's bowl cut and every single Vulcan behavior is genetic.

You're allowed to like TOS, people. It's really not that bad and tbh the insistence that it was just awful totally contributes to the popular culture image of the whole womanizing rash captain in space concept. Star Trek TOS was great. The costumes and the effects and yes, the acting. Star Trek would not have survived without every single aspect you insist is really bad. I have no idea why we insist on being embarrassed. The effects and costumes were actually fantastic given what they were working with. Let's not be so quick to admit that TOS was shit but we love it. We love the fun, the characters like our lovely and amazing Uhura, Chekov, Scotty, the plots, we love the intense chemistry between the leads and if you're in the same circles as me then, especially K/S, and there's a lot to love—and plenty that was good.

It was good and we love it.

[woman-of-many-fandoms]

Here what I'm leaning from reading Spock's World

Sarek: Master of 10+ computer languages. Spent decades on Earth and spoke many of the languages

Amanda: Worked on the universal translator

Spock: What is this slang you speak of??? I only know literal meanings.

[technoturian]

Pike’s showing his love through food is spot on and I didn’t really register her not eating his pancakes because at the time I was taking everything in (I really should do a full rewatch) but yeah, it’s pretty much shown to be a failing/warning when someone doesn’t like/eat his food. So it’s not hard to imagine this is an intentional sign that they’re not supposed to be together, along with all of the scenes with them basically not being on the same page.

The issue I’m having with them is not that they so obviously are mismatched and doomed as a couple. It’s that I don’t buy them as a couple to begin with. Opposites can attract but I just don’t buy that Batel and Pike even have a deep affection for each other. That bit from the episode earlier this season where her gift brought him back to himself felt so off from what I’ve seen of their relationship, where he seems to be holding her at arms’ length.

Batel is by far the least fleshed out of any of the love interests, with Kirk being a recurring character and future Important Character, T’Pring getting a lot of spotlight in season one, and Spock/Chapel both being regulars. Considering every romance they’ve done thus far has this same theme of “they don’t belong together and they’re not going to work out”, of course Batel/Pike is going to come off the worst of the lot being the least invested in of the bunch. I’ve never liked romantic interests that exist to orbit around their SO, completely unrelated to other characters and dynamics. Her motivations are completely opaque to me because whether she breaks up with him or dies horribly is up to how it will impact Pike’s arc, for which she solely exists.

And also, how many times can we see the same kind of scene of two people we know aren’t going to work out trying to make it work anyway? If done well it can be a quiet tragedy, but when they’re already this mismatched and it’s happening over and over again, it feels like an exercise in futility. I get it, he’s “dying” supposedly but we also know he ends up living a long life with someone else. They can’t indulge in the tragedy of her being his soulmate because it will undercut his future. They can’t make the relationship TOO bad because he will have wasted his “last” precious moments. Because of this she has to be someone good for him, but whom he can live without.

I think he keeps pushing and pulling because he’s fighting between wanting to protect her from his future and not wanting to give up on his present, and that makes sense and I get why they’re doing it, but to be honest I’m just not enjoying watching it.

In the snw pilot, Batel left before she finished eating the pancakes Pike made for her while she slept.

I don’t want to fall into the trap of disliking a female character just because, and I don’t particularly ship Pike with anyone else, but…

She’s left without eating his food since then, and I feel like cooking is how he expresses his love for people. For me there’s significance in her turning that down.

I’m uncomfortable, and I think Pike is subconsciously too, about him deepening a relationship when he knows and has been willing to talk about his future with others on the crew. Even if he probably shouldn’t have according to what I understand from discovery. I wonder if that’s behind his repeated pulling back then feeling guilty.

But aside from that, they just don’t seem to match. Him wanting to camp, her wanting room service. Yes, she understands what being a Captain is, but I would hope most people in the fleet understand that a captain can’t put them first.

I think I could like Batel as a character. But I don’t think she and Pike are right for each other.

I’m kind of anxious that they’re building up to killing her off in the gory war or something so I wanted to ramble about this first

[anewstartrekfan]

People make fun of snw for having tarsus iv survivor on Jim’s Starfleet bio but honestly all of this was public information in conscience of the king. There are two scenes dedicated to Jim and Spock separately finding out Kevin Riley was one of the other survivors. It’s public information but the public doesn’t care.

Yes it’s fun for fanfiction to have the tarsus 9’s names redacted from the survivors lists and to have Jim go out of his way to keep that shit private but the reality is that the massacre is regarded by the galaxy at large as a horrible thing that happened, but that it was one of many horrible things and the case is closed.

Bones trying to brush Spock off when Spock is explaining everything he’s learned, and Bones’ response to Spock bringing up Kodos had his own theories of eugenics, are the most telling here.

“Unfortunately he wasn’t the first.”

The general public know the basic details of what happened, and the person who orchestrated the crimes seemingly died. And despite no positive ID on the body, Starfleet stopped looking into it. Everyone wanted it to go away. They choose not to bring it up. I’d argue that’s part of the point. All of this is public data but almost everyone involved wanted it to die. Even some of the victims. (Jim). But the thing about an untreated wound is that it can fester, and get worse until it’s impossible to ignore. And now you’re in a situation where 7 out of 9 survivors of a massacre are dead, all around the same time a company of actors performed in the area they lived.

Conscience of the King stands as a greater lesson on why willfully ignoring uncomfortable history will lead to people not learning from their parents’/ancestors’ mistakes and/or worse, make the same mistakes/commit the same crimes.

[sleepynegress]

A COMPREHENSIVE & AUTHENTIC UHURA LOVE/HISTORY POST

The above is where Roddenberry 1st employed Nichelle Nichols [click to watch the full clip]. It was a military show based on Roddenberry's own experiences, the episode is called To Set it Right (I highly suggest reading the wiki article about it).

You should note two other actors, whom he later pegged for Star Trek are in the episode.

They dated briefly and then became good friends way before Trek came about.

Miss Nichols was already an accomplished singer and dancer who performed regularly w/ Billy Eckstine and Duke Ellington

Roddenberry's 1st show, The Lieutenant, was canceled/pulled from the air before these scenes bluntly dealing with racism could air (there's blackface as punishment for the racists at the end of the show, in a case of 'he 'a little confused but got the spirit' for the times, so tw)

He created Star Trek to try to soften the blow of all the social messaging he wanted to insert from his military experience. Star Trek was basically, a submarine drama placed in a sci-fi setting. He made it diverse on purpose because the military helped him travel and serve with all kinds of people. Roddenberry was inspired by that.

Uhura was the first person to read for Spock and in fact, helped to shape the character with her reading and based many of the traits of Uhura (formerly Uhuru) on Spock.

She was basically a glorified secretary. She played the part with poise, joy, and the 60's style womanism she got to play out for those times... Everything from her mini-skirt (which Nichelle herself called very comfortable) to her smile, and teasing lines, and quips were about her playing "big" in a small role. She made every moment, every look, every line, and movement count:

Roddenberry cracked jokes about the fact that the network never figured out that Uhura was fourth in command.

Nichelle was the only main cast member who was not salaried. She was paid by the hour. This attempt at marginalization actually resulted in her being the highest paid at times, because of the long hours.

Nichelle was not let in the front entrance at times, her fan-mail was kept from her, and she grew frustrated with the constant cutting of her scenes, lines and storylines. This is why she justifiably attempted to leave. The bigots in production did not like her being there (and if we're being real, were it not for Janice Rand's actress Grace Lee Whitney having gone through so much and thus losing her job in the 1st season...Uhura might have had even LESS presence)

The lost context in MLK convincing her to stay was that YES she was minimized and could make more money and be more fulfilled on broadway, but her symbolism and presence meant so much at a time when Black women weren't on TV unless as a racist caricature cleaning a house, and even that was rare...that she stayed.

One of her best allies was DeForest Kelly, who threatened to quit if they fired Nichelle. George Takei was her absolute best friend on the show and in life (she served as his Best Woman at his wedding).

There was an unfilmed episode in which Uhura and Deforest would have played reverse roles in "racial dynamics" on a planet they visit

Spock and Uhura were originally supposed to kiss in the alien mind control episode, but Shatner demanded to do so for the publiicity.

Her work to recruit marginalized people as astronauts, as in personally going to colleges and talking to candidates after the show is a staggering achievement that arguably is the most potent of any castmember in any of the Trek series post-show. Sally Ride, Guy Bluford (she personally recruited the 1st woman and 1st black astronaut), Mae Jemison (the 1st black woman credits her for inspiring her to become an astronaut).

Uhura did finally command the ship in the animated series. She would not have gotten to voice the role, but for Leonard Nimoy making it an obligation that all the original actors voice their parts for him to come on.

Scotty and Uhura in the film was definitely a pair the spares situation, in which both were the leftover senior citizens with the writers just going "why not?"

it was beyond insulting and she did protest about the scene where she's bumbling through a giant translation book to speak to klingons for laughs in trek 5 ...but her best moment IMO is her pulling a gun on the young ensign in the transporter room in Trek 3...sadly her ONLY scene in the damn movie.

Miss Saldana got to play to MANY corrections in JJ Abrams rebooted Trek, from being amazing at languages to having an actual life & love, to confidently turning down Kirk at every turn.

FUN FACT!! Both JJ and Bob Orci both expressed disappointed shock that the love story between Spock & Uhura got more hatred from fans than BLOWING UP PLANET VULCAN.

another FUN FACT!! The love story between Spock & Uhura is what grabbed the old school Star Wars fan (JJ Abrams) enough to come aboard to direct. Yep. JJ ships Spock & Uhura.

Zoe's iteration became the 1st version of Uhura to speak confidently in Klingon

Celia Rose Gooding becoming Uhura brings around a lot of Uhura's qualities full circle, IMO. As she is also from theatre (like Nichelle) and has a beautiful singing voice as well as the charm. Zoe's iteration was sharper, and much more protective, professional, & mature, about her life and love.

Celia Rose has the youthful curiousity and stars in her eyes and had vulnerability from her first intro... I loved the eagerness the crew showed to being in her orbit, seeing the glow of her talent and being drawn to that, to have a part in nurturing that.

As I've said... Celia IMO has the most dazzling smile, giant warm brown eyes, fantastic curves, and an energy that feels essentially Uhura, & that is all light, joy, a bit of uncertainty, -from the light singing (!) and the growth to her joy in discovery... I'd love to see her writing move away from serving and be more about her wants needs and growing in friendships/loves.

But Celia is a gift and is perfectly cast.

Essentially Uhura = femininity, graceful carriage, gorgeous smile, excellence in engineering and translation (canon!), ability to sing and play the Vulcan lyre, sharp womanist wit, love for her U.S. of African-Kenyan culture and being beloved by all crew...

When Miss Celia hummed those gorgeous notes to the alien entity on that comet?? That Solidified that she IS Uhura IMO.

I 100% think they fucked up by killing Hemmer, because that mentor-mentee relationship was giving marginalized coming together and bonding over everybody else's bullshit and I was here for it...it was giving me Data and Geordi updated...and since then, IMO they've lost track and given us the same kinda backwards wingwoman role BS, that people who like to pretend to be her fan shoehorn her into.

...but I have high hopes that they'll course-correct.

All this to say ALL OF THE ABOVE is Uhura and anyone calling her ugly, bossy, pushy, annoying, whatever is just sad little hater who doesn't know wtf they are talking about.

[mai-komagata]

more charades meta

i don't think people talk about charades (snw s2e5) being about neurodivergence and masking, and I think that is an interesting angle to think about this episode. I think a lot is made about it being an analogy for culture or race or religion, but I think it fits better as an analogy for neurological difference (and here i mean truly difference without connotation of better or worse). What I see this episode saying is that being vulcan is not just a culture, but it is a different neurology and the culture arose to accommodate different neurological needs. Much like in autism, you react to sensory stimuli differently, you show your emotions differently, you process information differently. Of course there is vulcan culture, but it is a culture that evolved to suit the neurological characteristics of vulcans. they find certain flavors too intense/unpalatable, they tolerate temperature differences (especially heat) more easily, they are more empathetic/emotional thus they see displays of emotional as more uncomfortable/unsettling for social cohesion, and express emotional connections via telepathy. That doesn't mean there isn't individual variation (we get the least cookie cutter vulcan array ever here, from t'pring's mom, t'pring, and her dad, as well as spock), and that people can't be charming or jerks, but that the neurological assumptions are fundamentally different. The thing is, someone with a human neurology can mask and assimilate into vulcan culture. But masking isn't innate. And you don't just "know how to mask" if you have been living in a culture the whole time, because you didn't need to do it if you are neurotypical. I know autistic people that can break down the nuance of a social interaction into a numbered list to explain it to someone (just like an actor can break down an accent they want to affect), while a neurotypical person wouldn't know the first thing about how to express what they do in a social situation -- they just do it. Amanda is the ideal person to teach spock this vs a vulcan because she does this every day. And it is a hard thing for her to do, not because she is a human, but because adapting in this way is draining and painful. There are so many neurodivergent people that live with sensory overload the same way amanda picked up the teapot, without complaint, because yelling in pain from sensory overload was taught to us as rude and punishable. And i love the scenes with Spock and Chapel in this episode (irrespective of the ship) because it shows that "curing" someone's neurology would be undesirable, even if they become more neurotypical to you. They would be a different person. Also that to a certain degree spock is on a spectrum between a human and vulcan neurology. Some things that are vulcan patterns of interaction come naturally to him, but some of his human characteristics he actively has to mask in that society. And same when he is in human society, he affects laughter cues, emotiveness, etc. I do find it interesting with Akiva Goldsman's background (parents being clinical psychologists, him writing A Beautiful mind), this would be a direction he would want to take in looking at characters, and to use storytelling as a way to express their neurology in different ways. I know everyone on tumblr hates this episode, but I do think it is one of the most fascinating ones from a scifi perspective, illustrative of both in universe traits of "what does it mean to be a vulcan", but of real world thought exercises. (also one of the best new aliens in the series, some non-corporeal bureaucratic jerks).

[spockandstars]

I think that a lot of people take issue with the way the Spock/Chapel/T'Pring love triangle is presented in Strange New Worlds, but that sometimes this is dismissed as fans just being bitter spirk shippers. So here are a few reasons why I believe people are iffy on this plotline. (Disregarding the fact that we're disappointed that the showrunners didn't, and most likely won't, take the chance to do something really cool with Spock's legacy as a queer coded character...)

Firstly, it takes time away from other characters to address an element of Spock's story that has already been explored beautifully. (I will get into how this treats Chapel and T'Pring later...) Spock's struggle with his humanity and his anguish over the depth of his feelings for others (particularly Jim) is a focus in TOS and the movies, and if you're going to keep on talking about it, at least do it in a more creative way? This isn't to say that it shouldn't be acknowledged at all, seeing that it is a lifelong struggle for him, but by making it such a focus of the series they're not giving other interesting characters as much of a chance to develop.

Additionally, it has traditionally been understood that Spock coped with his inner turmoil by repressing his feelings. Over the course of his lifetime, he learns to embrace his human side more to become a more balanced and healthy person. SNW takes the approach of "young Spock was more human and horny!" which isn't necessarily bad, but they better be giving us an explanation for how he transforms so dramatically to the extremely repressed character he is in TOS. Maybe this is reaching too far, but this whole approach of young Spock just feels like an excuse to get hot ladies into his bed and to fulfill the fantasies of nerdy men who project onto him. This is the same Spock who scoffed at the idea of going to see dancers at a bar, who was immune to the charms of the sexy ladies in Mudd's Women, who only entertained women when drugged or when he needed to do so for a mission...

Furthermore, I believe it's a disservice to Chapel. On one hand, it does make her love for Spock seem more grounded in reality, which I appreciate. In TOS, it's pretty clear that Spock doesn't share her feelings and her crush is only really ever used as a means of ridiculing her. There goes silly Chapel again, trying to win over her unrequited love! It's not cool. But on the same token, making Spock the focus of her character yet again only further reduces her to nothing but that. Why can't we let the girl breathe and do other stuff? Sure, she does get some of the AOS Uhura treatment where she gets to be a generic cool badass lady, but this is in a way that is lacking in any real depth. Chapel deserves better.

I also don't love the way it treats T'Pring. Was it really necessary for her to be Spock's eye candy wife that he gets to bang and cheat on? In Amok Time, it's heavily implied that this was an arranged thing and that they hadn't seen each other since they were seven. If they really felt the need to include this relationship, it would have been so much cooler if they had explored it from that angle, with neither of them truly wanting to be together but being forced into it by societal expectation. Which of course, results in T'Pring using her intelligence to gain her freedom in Amok Time.

So yeah. Those are my main gripes with this whole thing. Overall, I think it's lazy writing that allows the writers to benefit from the nostalgia of legacy characters without developing them in actually meaningful or revolutionary ways.

[lostyesterday]

There is a certain type of Star Trek character that is extremely and vocally hated by at least some large segments of the fandom. These aren’t just characters that many people dislike – these are characters who are actively hated by a significant number of people, usually ostensibly because they are “annoying” in some way. This isn’t a phenomenon unique to the Star Trek fandom by any means, but I’m interested in examining this phenomenon in relation to Star Trek in particular – including which characters it applies to and the potential reasons why it might exist.

First, I wanted to make a list of Star Trek characters that I believe definitely count as overly hated from the Trek shows whose fandoms I’m most familiar with:

Wesley (TNG)

Pulaski (TNG)

Keiko (DS9/TNG)

Ezri (DS9)

Winn (DS9)

Neelix (Voyager)

Michael (Discovery)

Adira (Discovery)

Then there are the characters who I’ve seen a lot of hate toward, but I’m not sure if it’s from a large enough segment of the fandom or is vitriolic enough to count completely:

Chapel (TOS)

Lwaxana (TNG/DS9)

Julian (DS9)

Kes (Voyager)

Naomi (Voyager)

Gray (Discovery)

La’an (SNW)

Obviously, I think it’s perfectly fine and reasonable to dislike any of the above characters. What I’m talking about here is when people act like there is something fundamentally terrible or irredeemably annoying about these characters in comparison to other similar characters, with a base assumption that most everyone in the world is going to agree that these characters just suck.

So what makes these particular characters such common targets of hate? The most obvious pattern I see in these lists is that female characters are vastly overrepresented, which is hardly surprising. Fandoms disproportionately finding female characters “annoying” and “badly written” is hardly a new thing. Also, in addition to just plain sexism, there’s certainly a racial element to the ways people hate Michael and Keiko, and a lot of people who talk about how much they hate Adira will just straight up admit it’s because they hate trans people. On the other hand, I’ve seen more hate toward Wesley than most of the other characters on these lists, and he’s a white boy. Could there be elements of the hate toward characters like Wesley and Neelix that are also gendered – as in, these characters somehow don’t measure up to cultural standards of masculinity in a way many people find irritating?

Obviously, bigotry plays a large role in why a lot of these characters are hated, but it probably isn’t the whole story either. Fundamentally, the thing that confuses me here is that I don’t personally find any of the characters on the above lists to be more “annoying” than average. I slightly dislike a few of them, but I don’t hate any of them, and I don’t understand what it is about them in particular that makes them prime targets for such vitriolic and widespread hatred.

I’d love to hear other people’s thoughts on this. In particular, what do you think about the above lists of characters that I think definitely count and might count as overly hated in the Star Trek fandom? Are there any characters you’d add to or remove from either list? And do you notice any patterns in the types of characters that end up being overly hated?

[hedonistbyheart]

I've seen some people a bit upset about Saavik in Unification and the implied child of her and Spock, but I always thought that Saavik helping him through Pon Farr on Genesis was an interesting take 2 of Amok Time, in the sense that if T'Pring had in fact been logical and not in love with Stonn, she would have helped him through it amiably and inherited Sarek and T'Pau's legacy.

She wasn't capable of it, but Saavik, half-Romulan and actually friends with Spock, was much more logical about the situation in the end. The Pon Farr was never about love, it's a mating drive, but Saavik approached it with pragmatism and compassion, taking up the duty to Spock's house without being in love with him, like any proper Vulcan wife of his probably would have been expected to. Because of her, Spock was free to stay among the stars with his soulmate and Saavik, who now has a big family in Sarek's house along with her son, is clearly happy for them.

Saavik and Jim were never in competition in the movies and Unification only confirms that to me.

[mai-komagata]

Hey confessionee, if it makes you feel better, I don't think T'Pring's story is *close* to over in SNW. We assume she has been cheated on, but that might not be the case if both parties understood what was up/it was an open relationship/they didn't consider each other engaged anymore. She could be shown happily with Stonn next season, since he works with her. Or some third thing. We also don't know what the state of their relationship will be in future seasons. They could reconcile. Maybe they become each other's emergency pon farr contacts while they pursue other things. Maybe they have this arrangement for some familial/traditional reason. The sad headcanon is not the only headcanon right now, and it likely will be overriden by even more canon developments in season 3+. I like that she is no longer just the "evil ex girlfriend that almost killed spock with no notice", but instead "the relationship was complicated". Because the world needs more interesting female characters.

#321

"I have a love-hate relationship with T'Pring in SNW. On the one hand, I absolutely love her. Her character is amazing, and every episode she was in, her actress knocked it out of the park. She's tries very hard to be attentive to Spock's needs, both Vulcan and Human, and she is very much not your typical Vulcan.

But on the other, the storyline around her completely shifts the dynamics of what happens in the Pon Farr episode and makes me not like Spock as much because now with SNW, he's a cheater who still seems to expect that T'Pring is just going to be waiting for him.

In TOS, T'Pring's decision is kind of a bitch move sprung on Spock with the implication of being more "Vulcans are lowkey racists" but with SNW context, it's honestly completely fair to tell the guy who cheated on you that actually no I'm not marrying you because I deserve better, sorry our laws require you to fight to the death now, I didn't write them.

I want to love T'Pring so much because she's one of the most complicated female characters on the show but God what the show does to Spock in the process of that development makes me so sad."