#Beetlejuice discourse

[the-marshals-wife]

Betelgeuse and Astrid "Death" Parallel

I'm not sure what else to call this observation/rambling, but I've been thinking a lot about the events of Beetlejuice Beetlejuice, and on my most recent viewing, I noticed something super satisfying about this scene. You know, other than the obvious.

We all know Beej is not one to turn down a deal, least of all when it involves his own self-interest. And of course, it's very advantageous for him to rescue the daughter of the woman whose heart he's trying desperately to win. But there's another delicious layer to him being the one to personally dispose of Jeremy Fraizer...

Betelgeuse knows exactly what it's like to be manipulated by love, only to then have your life taken from you.

Delores manipulated him under the guise of love to steal his life (and his soul) to gain immortality, the same way that Jeremy pretended to care for Astrid so that he could ultimately take her life for his own.

It's think pretty accurate to assume that neither Delores nor Jeremy felt anything genuine for their victims. They were a means to an end. But where Betelgeuse had to defend himself on his own, unable to reverse what had been done, Astrid was not alone. While she was preoccupied with running from the afterlife authorities, reuniting with her father, and getting some much-needed family closure, there was someone else looking out for her.

Enter our anti-hero.

We don't get any direct insight into Beej's thoughts on the Jeremy situation, but it probably struck a nerve for him. He would never admit it, but how could it not? We already know he's privy to Rory's manipulation of Lydia and is eager to expose him, but this is not about a toxic, gold-digging relationship. This is literally life and death. It follows that he would be just as if not more upset to learn that a murderous wolf in sheep's clothing was trying to kill Lydia's daughter, especially given the nature of his own death.

(I mean c'mon, he used his one PG-13 ordained f-bomb on the guy. I think it's safe to say he felt pretty strongly about Jeremy's villainy.)

We all know how it plays out in the end, but I think it's rather poetic that Beej is able to avenge his 'would-be stepdaughter' and save her from a devious scheme very similar to the one that he fell prey to.

He couldn't get his own life back from Delores (though arguably he does, at least metaphorically, in the finale), but he was able to give Astrid back hers.

So there you have it. Now that I see the parallels, it's ten times more vindicating that Betelgeuse was the one that got to send that slimeball to hell. And let's be honest: Beej would probably agree.

[evanpeterswifeyyy]

If you ship Beetlejuice and Lydia Deetz, you're disturbed. Idc. I said it

In the first movie she was 16 and Beetlejuice is a 100 million bajillion year old demon forcing her to marry him.

"Well that's the first movie! She's an adult now and he only did it because of blah blah blah!"

And to that I say---he forces her again the second movie, and the whole time she refuses him, is annoyed or terrified by him. The first part of the movie, she is literally having PTSD of seeing visions of Beetlejuice and tries her hardest to keep him from coming back into her life.

She then is forced to work with him to get her daughter back, and he gives her an incentive to be with him and uses that opportunity to force her to be with him again. It's not cute or romantic either that he has a picture of her on his desk, it's weird, obsessive and creepy. Especially because Lydia time and time again, DOES NOT WANT HIM. If you can't see that in the film you're either media illiterate or purposely ignorant.

And don't even do the "Well she didn't want her fiance either!" NEWS FLASH!!!!! The female lead does NOT have choose between either love interest or other characters!

[jackie-gremlin-ghost]

People on TikTok coming into the Beetlejuice fandom since the new movie came out: OMG WHY ARE PEOPLE SHIPPING BEETLEJUICE AND LYDIA NOW?! WHAT A BUNCH OF FREAKS!

Me, who’s been in the fandom since 1999:

[theblackdog552]

Lydia x beetlejuice haters are so funny to me cause people will say “did you even watch the movie” as if Winona ryder wasnt IN THE MOVIE and yet still ships it

[rtfics]

"Perhaps someone can educate me on how the idea of a musical was sold if there was this much vitreol inside of it all. If Burton was so against the idea, then how did it get greenlit in the first place?"

No problem. It's easy not to know how this came about if you don't know the industry.

Tim Burton doesn't own the copyright or any other rights to Beetlejuice, its characters or anything involved with it. Warner Brothers, the studio that made the film, owns all the rights. Therefore, they don't have to involve Tim Burton in anything having to do with Beetlejuice.

Burton was the Executive Producer for the animated series, so he had input and could nix ideas he didn't like. He even had a hand in the writing of some episodes. The animation studio, Nelvana, was very into the whole project, and were happy to get feedback and suggestions from Burton.

2018 was the 30th anniversary of Beetlejuice. Warner Brothers was pushing a big celebration about it. They'd hoped for years that Burton would make a sequel, but that wasn't happening. I can't recall if the musical's creators approached WB first or if WB was fishing for someone to create a musical. Either way, the idea of a musical was launched so it would open on or around the 30th anniversary. Which it did, debuting in D.C. in 2019.

Tim Burton had no involvement in the musical whatsoever. He wasn't consulted, he wasn't invited to participate. Because he wasn't directing or producing it, and because he didn't own the rights, the project went ahead as if he didn't exist.

At first everyone thought it would be just a musical adaptation of the '88 film. But the musical's writers had their own ideas. They drastically rewrote the story, changing personalities and motivations and character relationships. I've heard from friends who worked on Broadway that the Warner Brothers thought this was fine, it would attract a younger generation who were into Beetlejuice wanting to kill people and Lydia actually killing and Beej being gay (the creators called him "pansexual," but everyone knows he's gay. When cast and crew said "This Beetlejuice has a beard" they didn't mean the hair on his face.).

Basically WB and the musical's creators figured they could ignore fans of the original movie and attract the youngsters. Youngsters had made Wicked a smash, so they aimed for that demographic. Basically, Theater Kids.

Alex Brightman begged Michael Keaton to come to the musical. He and Tim Burton refused.

Instead, while making the series Wednesday, Burton realized he had writers who would take his ideas for a sequel and write it the way he wanted. The way it should be. And that's exactly what happened.

As I've said, I have no problem with people enjoying the musical. I grew up with Don't Like Don't Read/Watch and Ship And Let Ship. I can easily ignore the musical's existence. It wasn't until musical fans came after Beetlebabes, many of whom have loved the movie and the Ship since 1988, than I developed a deep loathing toward them. If they leave me alone I'll leave them alone. But they don't.

And I especially won't tolerate their insulting Keaton and Burton, without whom their AU fanfic musical wouldn't exist.

Am I the only person in the Beetlejuice fandom that LIKES the movies, the musical, AND show and don't care that they're different? Can we not appreciate different versions of the same thing? I honestly don't get it. It is possible to appreciate all versions of the Beetlejuice universe. I promise.

The 2nd movie isn't negating the musical or the show because the movies are their own cannon, just like the musical is its own cannon, and so is the cartoon. Do the universes make jabs at each other sometimes? Of course they do. It's Beetlejuice for God's sake. It's meta as fuck which is why it cracks me up that some of y'all take this so seriously. Especially the ship wars. Jeezus. 😒 it's not that serious guys.

The 2nd movie doesn't take anything away from the show or the cartoon because they are all different universes.

And that's OKAY!

It's all fanfiction after the 1st movie anyway so why are y'all so mad? Is it because things aren't going your way? Is it because the creators wrote the fanfiction wrong to you?

There's fanfiction for that, too, ya know.

The cartoon show was created AFTER the movie... so it's literally episodic fanfiction. Good fanfiction. I watched it. Love it.

The musical was created AFTER the movie AND the show..... Fanfiction. I get to see it live for the first time in November and I am SO excited. I already know how the story differs and I'm fine with it being different. I LIKE that they're being creative.

The 2nd movie is literally a FANFICTION. I swear to God they scoured ao3 and said bet. It's fucking ridiculous. Yeah I fucking LOVED how stupid it was. How can anyone take any of these universes seriously?!?!

None of it would have existed without THE ORIGINAL SOURCE MATERIAL. Thank you Keatlejuice. 💚

It's all fanfiction. These creators just got to make money off their bullshit, and I think some of y'all are just mad that others fanfictions got the green light and yours didn't.

And if that's the case then go touch some grass.

I personally love all forms, and I know there has got to be others that do, too.

[aspergirl-2006]

As someone who loves Beetlejuice, and his whole dynamic and relationship with Lydia (in all its forms); I find really distasteful how when I see a beautiful artwork of them together bonding, having fun and such, I'm gonna give it a like because I think it's nice and cute, but then I see a big text at the end in capital letters:

“NOT SHIP ART, BEETLEB*BES DNI” with the name censored and everything, as if it was some kind of slur.

And then I'm like- “Oh, okay then; I don't know why you feel the need to clarify that when there's nothing romantic happening, but alright, I won't bother you” and proceed to block them.

I don't know, but the fact these people are so eager to yell that their work is not ship content, even though no one except them has implied that, and telling anyone who doesn't see BJ and Lyds as anything but platonic to not talk to them, not even to say that the art is good, is really... Funny to me, to say the least.

Anyway, wait until they find out couples have been wearing BJ and Lydia's wedding outfits for Halloween ever since the first movie came out; I really wonder why that might be.

[herefortheships]

What do you think of the Bj and Lydia controversy due to age?

You know, the short answer I have for this is that I do not think it should be an issue that's even brought up anymore. Lydia is now an adult woman in her 50s; plenty of people end up with a partner who is 10+ years older than them, meaning that they would have been a full adult if they would have come across their partner at sixteen. And that's just speaking about the real world; let's not forget Beetlejuice and the characters in that world are all a work of fiction. I don't think the fact that they met when she was a teenager all those years ago should even be an issue to ship it or not. As a matter of fact, people can ship whatever they want. They can even ship it in the first film and it's not an issue... Shipping in itself is inherently innocent. These characters and the situations around them don't even exist, and therefore, whatever you imagine with them, has no effect in the real world. Shipping is no different from a kid grabbing a couple of dolls and making them kiss. It's all in good fun.

Let me tell you, I had written a long freaking essay under this question 😅, but I decided to leave all of that for a separate post. But a few notable points from that essay which I think would be good to include here are the following.

Back in the 90s and early 2000s we had ships with pretty big age gaps on network TV and nobody batted an eye about the age gap (as far as I'm concerned). I'm talking about Buffy the Vampire Slayer specifically in this post. This was before social media, but as far as magazines and fandom spaces go, I'm sure the discussions around Buffy's love interests in BTVS centered around which hot vampire was better for Buffy, Angel or Spike. (Even nowadays we see this kind of article, exhibit A). And you don't see these articles starting with disclaimers and trigger warnings, either.

For those who haven't watched BTVS, Angel was around 240-something when he slept with 17 year old Buffy. He slept with her the night she turned 17, by the way; they were already together while she was 16. At the time he was turned into a vampire, Angel was around 26 years old. Angel met Buffy when she was 16, but he was stalking watching Buffy since she was 15:

Now about Spike. Spike met Buffy when she was 16, but he didn't actually become obsessed with her until she was around 20. Still, they got together and it wasn't ever an issue that he met her when she was a teenager. In Spike's case, he did stick around and interacted with Buffy multiple times before they started dating. In Betelgeuse's case, we know that while he watched Lydia from afar, he never actually managed to interact or even be seen by her during the years they were apart.

A lot of antis throw around the word "grooming" around Beetlebabes; I don't think they understand the meaning of that word. To put it simple, to groom someone is to condition them and emotionally manipulate them for years into a certain behavior, in this context, into falling in love or becoming sexually involved with the groomer. This term, therefore, cannot and will not ever apply to Betelgeuse and Lydia's relationship (it also does not apply to Spuffy, while we're at it). How can it? When they only had a few interactions over 30+ years ago and only met now after all that time.

And about those interactions in the first movie, the fact that Betelgeuse attempted to marry Lydia is attached to an idea of sexual inappropriateness only when that particular idea is projected onto what actually happened in that scene. Objectively, for Betelgeuse, marrying Lydia was a means to an end; there was no sexual or romantic implications in their marriage in that movie.

I believe in the case of Betelgeuse x Lydia versus ships like Buffy x Angel or Buffy x Spike, people are quick to see an issue in one where they never notice an issue in the other for the following reason: While Angel and Spike are hot, young-looking vampires, Betelgeuse is gross and does look like a dead guy. That is literally the difference. Spike and Angel are good-looking hotties; Betelgeuse... I love him lots and he is hot for me, but he is not conventionally attractive. I bet you if Betelgeuse looked like Michael Keaton did playing Bruce Wayne... People wouldn't have an issue that he's lusting after 50-something year old Winona Ryder, (also a hottie herself btw).

Let's add here before I close off this post that both Angel and Spike did objectively horrible things to Buffy when they were soulless (Angel while Buffy was still a minor), and meanwhile Betelgeuse has never harmed Lydia (no, the insta-pregnancy didn't harm her; everything that happened in that scene was an illusion). He didn't even behave inappropriately toward her in the first film when he was wilder and hornier than he is now. And yet shipping Bangel or Spuffy (last I checked lol) isn't widely seen as problematic. I ship Spuffy to the moon and back, and used to ship Bangel as well at some point 🤷��‍♀️ and I haven't seen people attacking shippers nor have I seen discussions of these ships being inappropriate (though I'm sure there must be... it's 2024 and the purity culture fandom infection has spread widely), not in the way I see Beetlebabes fans being harassed.

Anyway, I wrote a separate post about this and will post it eventually. This wasn't meant to be this long, but here we are 😅.

[afterthefuneral]

I realized my fanart output has been sluggish lately. I’m trying to remedy that. I have some funny ideas in the back of my head. I’ve had some health issues and I’m preparing for Halloween. But I have been writing a companion piece to Cradle to Grave revolving around Beetlejuice’s diary called Confessions of a Bio-Exorcist. Cradle to Grave is necessary to read first, because confessions revolves around Beetlejuice’s perspective through the events and some bonus content of chapters in between.

See below for a little bit of tea.

I’m known as “the least confrontational beetlebabe” but I’m approaching my limit. Believe me, I would like to unload regarding the infighting in this fandom and the discourse between pro and anti shippers.

I try to be as kind and polite as possible. I used to have a mean streak but I’m working on it. It confuses and saddens me to see such vitriolic behavior in, let’s be honest, a fandom for a 36 year old Tim Burton movie.

In the meantime I will try to share other peoples art and funny memes to raise other voices, while I work on my own content. I appreciate all that have messaged me and shown support. Thank you, my little juice boxes!

[m-bbert]

just got back from watching beetlejuice beetlejuice and he is so real for sending an asshole that looks exactly like Wilbur soot directly to hell

[wolf-tail]

Being a Beetlejuice fan with OCD is hard bc everytime I click on a cute fan artist's blog I get hit with some of the most triggering DNI criteria I've ever seen that comes this 🤏 close to sending me spiraling for hours.

[sinkwater-rat]

Yeah I don’t like beetlebabes. I think it’s weird that people would ship a 12-14 year old (depending on if you mean cartoon/movie) with a hundreds-of-years-old demon. I think it’s weird if they end up together in bjbj because they knew each other when Lydia was 14. If they fall in love during the course of the movie then maybe that’s okay. That’s not my favorite, but ig it’s fine if you meet someone, don’t see them for 20-30 years, and then come back and fall in love with them over the course of an adventure. They’re both adults. But for the people arguing that he liked her back in 1988, that’s gross IMO.

And for the beetlebabes shipper that said they don’t like the musical because of Creepy Old Guy, because apparently the musical “misses the point of Beetlejuice’s and Lydia’s relationship,” then that’s really funny because I don’t think we watched the same movie! I saw NO indication from either of them that they liked each other.

For the cartoon argument, I’m honestly not sure because I haven’t watched much of it. However, remember that you can be affectionate with someone in a platonic way. Like, how people hug and celebrate with their relatives. People cuddle their friends. The blue curtains are blue.

[yakkety-yak-art]

look I’m not going to say that you’re personally a creep or a bad person if you ship Betelgeuse with an adult Lydia (that sounds sarcastic but I mean that genuinely I truly do not care lol), but I DID feel like I was going insane when I saw people dogpiling someone on the Beetlejuice subreddit for saying “ew” and “it makes me uncomfortable” on a post literally asking people what they would think if Beetlejuice 2 ended with them together.

Like genuinely that’s all they said. They said the ship makes them personally uncomfortable and they wouldn’t have liked it being made official because of the context in which the two of them initially interact in the first movie, and several people showed up to call them a prude, a puritan who hates people who are sexually liberated (??), a “chronically online” person who probably rants about how fiction affects reality so anyone who ships anything is automatically a pedophile, etc etc.

The post was ABOUT PEOPLE’S OPINIONS. ON A SHIP BEING MADE CANON. And when someone said “I don’t want that because of how it personally makes me feel” without even making a judgement call on the people who do like it or accusing anyone of anything suddenly that person was public enemy no.1

In conclusion I hate Reddit.

[beetlebabber]

am I only one that's mad about these kinds of comments on BJ fanart

they took his dad bod noooooooo

source art in question, first of all, bc it's literally the greatest

why are some people so MAD that not everybody wants to draw his "accurate" body type?? aesthetic preferences in art are a crime now??? BOO FUCKING HOO I'LL DRAW BEETLEBUB AS A CONVENTIONALLY ATTRACTIVE SKINNY YAOI ANIME BOI IF I WANT TO... and you should too if you feel like it!!

"BEAUTIFUL ART STYLE BUT--" NONO FUCK YOU

I responded to a post on here (not pinterest) that complained about bj art that's "too pretty," but I ended up deleting it bc I thought "ok maybe I'm out of line and I need to chill" and i decided a day later that I didn't wanna get yelled at bc I'm a pansy and a coward, but I saw this comment section on pinterest and got ULTRA TRIGGERED so I'm talking about it again

Maybe I'm still out of line or an actual discussion is warranted?

Agree or nah? CHANGE MY MIND...

[luciality]

yknow once ur eyes adjust to the dA furry style hazzbin isnt actually a bad show it's pretty funny

[xxx-theartofsuicide-xxx]

Musical wouldn't exist without beetlebabes. Sequel wouldn't exist without beetlebabes. Cartoon wouldn't even be available on DVD if a bunch of beetlebabes hadn't sent out snailmail in the 90's/early 2000's demanding it. Should've gatekept this shit because the number of ungrateful media illiterate ignorant brats with frozen takes and terrible headcanons grows by the day.

Another thing I want to say about Beetlejuice is that I find it so funny when I see a newbie in the fandom think that shipping Beetlejuice and Lydia is a brand new thing and assume that people who ship it have never seen the original.

I don't know who needs to hear this but this ship has existed since 1988 when the original came out, and those of us who ship it have not only seen the original but most can probably quote the script in their sleep from how many times they've watched it.

[xxx-theartofsuicide-xxx]

I just found an interview, where Winona Ryder (Lydia Deetz herself) said that she likes the idea of Beetlejuice x Lydia and that he is her end game!!!! I can not believe it, shes so real. We won omg!!!! 🤯 you can find the k terview in Tim Burton Daily on Twitter!!!

I've deleted the Tumblr and discord apps from my phone to keep the magic alive for Sept. 6th...but I poked back in long enough to see this 👀 I mean color me shocked lol I've been saying this for years. Of course she's Queen Beetlebabe, the Original™ did we honestly expect anything less? She's in the proper demographic, and she got to experience Him in person like. She was doomed from the start, it's really not her fault. Bless all that is sinful and unholy. So embarrassed for antis right now 🫢