#Anti baratheon

[dragonworshippersblog]

I saw a post on tumblr that said rhaenyra's usurpation was her own fault and was also the cause of no woman taking the throne and it is literally the stupidest, most nonsensical thing a person could write. At aegon’s name day in episode three lady Redwyne said to rhaenyra “your dear uncle is the great mind behind this war [..] since you supplanted him as heir” implying that if the heir had remained daemon, a man known for his violence and impulsiveness, the kingdom would not have gone to war. So she is assuming that even such a man is better than a female heir for the kingdom. Later on in the same episode otto said to alicent “it wouldn't matter if she were Jaehaerys himself born again, rhaenyra is a woman” and in this time rhaenyra did nothing of the action she is been blamed in the attempt of justify her usurpation. So in both of these situations, people think that a male born should step over rhaenyra even if daemon proved himself unfit to the throne and aegon is still a child.

When aegon grow up the people who support his claim on the throne did not do it because they were genuinely convinced that he will be a better king than rhaenyra (this part is similar in the book and in the show, aegon is a men who spend his day drinking and visiting brothel so he never gave the chance to anyone to think he is going to be a good ruler) but they support him because he is a male. These are a couple of quote from fire and blood said by lord borros and jasper wylde:

He had nothing against women, Lord Borros went on; he loved his girls, a daughter is a precious commodity... but a son, ahh, should the gods ever wish to grant him one of his own blood, storm’s end would pass to him, not to his sisters. "Why should it be any different for the Iron Throne?"

otto was executed and after him was Iron Rod, who continued to insist to the last that, according to the law, the king's son must nevertheless come before his daughter.

Could rhaenyra have made better choices in her path? Certainly. Would she have been preserved from usurpation? Absolutely not because the war was based solely on sex, not choices. Rhaenyra could have followed her duties and been a good princess but the war would still have taken place because she is a woman. She is not the reason why after the dance no one named a daughter as heir/no queen took the throne, but the reason for this is that no king would have taken responsibility for such a choice in the presence of a living male heir knowing how bloody and ruthless the dance of the dragon was (when there wasn't a male heir, a female can took the throne, as cersei did on got)

[drakaripykiros130ac]

I saw someone asking why Alicent Hightower and Criston Cole seem to be getting more hate than Joffrey Baratheon or Ramsay Bolton ever did.

The answer to that question is very simple.

Joffrey and Ramsay were just cartoonishly evil, so to speak. They were fun to watch and read about sometimes. They made good villains, and they knew that they were villains (never attempting to hide it).

Alicent and Cole (and Otto as well), on the other hand, are the kind of people you meet in real life as well. The kind of people you absolutely can’t stand for their false piety, their hypocrisy, their gold digging, their double-standards, their constant judgmental attitude, and cruel intentions.

In other words:

Joffrey and Ramsay are TV/book villains.

Alicent, Otto and Cole are real life villains.

[spacerockfloater]

Anyways, we stan house Baratheon for going up against the crown not once, but twice in the history of Westeros and winning both times. Borros really said “Fuck these Targaryen inbreds” and Robert was like “Word, lemme finish what you started” and completely wiped them out of this earth, lol. The OG Baratheon boy, Orys, is probably rolling in his grave while miss princess Argella Durrandon is smiling down upon her descendants.

[watcherintheweyr]

'Rhaenyra is a bad mom bc she knowingly gave birth to bastards and she knew how much danger they'd be in!!!!'

1. She had no way of knowing those babies wouldn't pop out looking exactly like her, beforehand. And unfortunately she couldn't stop at Jace. The throne needed an heir. Driftmark needed an heir. And a spare was needed as well, given the sheer rate of Targaryen children dying untimely deaths.

2. She had to provide heirs to the throne, and to Driftmark. If she hadn't, society wouldn't have blamed Laenor, they would have blamed her- which makes her position even more unstable, bc then she 'can't fulfill a woman's duty' so why would men think her 'able' to fill a 'man's role' by ruling the kingdom? And she and Laenor tried. He was either unable (meaning infertile or impotent, or unable to get it up), or unwilling. (And they did try. We dont know what they tried but Rhaenyra is shown to be clever in the show so honestly i have no doubt she attempted what Margaery suggested with Renly.) Laenor was in on the entire thing. He was aware of every part of this. He wasn't duped, he wasn't cuckholded- it was a plan greenlit by him, bc this way he and Rhaenyra would both have their heirs and a family. This cannot in any way shape or form be compared to Cersei cuckholding Robert (fuck Robert Baratheon tho), seeing as Robert was **not** at all aware that his children weren't his, and wouldn't have been OK with that.

Either way- she chose not to maritally r*pe her husband and put him through more trauma after it was clear their attempts weren't working. Yall are always so upset for Alicent (rightfully so, bc show!alicent was maritally raped, even if it wasn't considered as such in that time), but you... WANT Rhaenyra to do that to Laenor? Hello???

[And no. Rhaenyra did NOT rape or coerce Criston Cole. The actors, writers, and directors have all stated their sex was consensual and 'an act of love.' It was Rhaenyra going to someone she felt close to and trusted after feeling abandoned and unwanted and betrayed. In that scene you literally watch, as after Cole tells Rhaenyra to stop undressing herself, she moves aside so she isn't blocking his way to the door. The director states that the moment they show Cole folding and setting down his cloak was him choosing his desire over his oaths. And Criston Cole has known Rhaenyra since she was 14. He knew damn well the sort of person she was- and she was not the person who would have harmed him for saying no. She was an intoxicated and emotionally vulnerable 19 year old- Criston was in his late 20s to early 30s. And it's explicitly stated in ep.9 that the ONLY person a Kingsguard cannot refuse is the king. In ep.7 Criston disobeys a direct order from Alicent when she wants him to mutilate Lucerys. Criston Cole was not assaulted. Stop trying to assign Aegon's sins to Rhaenyra so that you can feel better for supporting him.]

3. In the books, the rumors of their bastardry at large halted when all of Rhaenyra's boys' cradle eggs hatched. The ONLY people who continued to try and raise issue were the core green faction. But the realm at large *did not give a fuck* why? Because every actually relevant party claimed those boys. Repeatedly and without flinching. Laenor claimed and loved those boys even face to face with Alicent's bullshit. Corlys claimed and love those boys- he was proud of them, and it's been stated by the actor in the show that Luke was his favorite- that given the... events of ep.10, Corlys will be out for blood. And Viserys repeatedly insisted upon their legitimacy- because Laenor and Corlys claimed them, because he knew that by forcing Rhaenyra to marry Laenor in order to repair the damage his insults caused House Velaryon, that he had backed her into a corner.

Rhaenyras boys are remembered to history as Velaryon. Even **Green supporters** noted that they were good, capable, intelligent, and **worthy** princes. That their deaths were unfortunate *for the realm.*

Legally, those boys are legitimate. They cannot be proven illegitimate without Laenor renouncing them, and he never did. Furthermore, trying to declare children illegitimate due to their appearance is a stupid, dangerous precedent. The fact that it's people who have no ties to House Velaryon pushing these rumors and pushing for disinheritance makes it even worse, because they're meddling in the succession of a House that *is not theirs.* if that became a standard, imagine the feuds and conflicts that would erupt- lords pushing for the children of rivals to be declared illegitimate all for the sake of trying to grasp and steal land, power, and influence as a norm? The realm would tear itself apart. Not to mention the sheer danger that would place women in, in Westeros.

Furthermore, even whilst usurping her, even while calling her children bastards, the Greens also imply Laenor's homosexuality was inherited by the Velaryon princes- that they would use Rhaenyra's 'promiscuity' and Laenor's 'predilections' to turn the Red Keep into a brothel- ironic, considering that's more what Aegon would've done. So even while claiming that Rhaenyras children are bastards that shouldn't inherit, they try to state that what the boys inherit or learn from Laenor makes them unfit for the throne. They can't keep their own damn story straight- because their usurpation was never about what is moral, what is right, or the greater good. It was about greed. Power. Sexism.

It doesn't matter what those boys looked like, especially seeing as Rhaenys had dark hair in the books. What matters is that Corlys and Laenor and Viserys claimed them and declared them legitimate, and that they **never** deviated from that.

As for Vaemond, he was a second son. And he waited until Corlys and Viserys were dying and too ill to stop him to make a grasp for power. Youre not supposed to look at that and feel hes in the right. Youre supposed to look at that and see a man consumed by greed, and literally trying to bury Corlys' will and intentions before the man is even in a grave. He was NEVER Corlys' heir- he just wanted power. It wasn't about his House, or their legacy, it was about him.

(And before yall start shit about Rhaenyras boys stealing Laena's girls' inheritance... Rhaena and Baela are *TARGARYEN*. Not Velaryon. Their claim was to the throne or to any holdings in Daemon's name. NOT to Driftmark.)

Rhaenyras boys being betrothed to Rhaena and Baela tied up any issue of 'Velaryon blood.' Baela would have been queen consort of the seven kingdoms at Jace's side, and they very clearly adored one another in book and show. Rhaena would have been Lady of the Tides- which she never would have had a chance for, without Rhaenyra (and Laena) making those betrothals. She and Luke were also canonically very close- and in show she's very encouraging of him whenever he looks nervous or uncertain. They had a bond.

Rhaenyra stole nothing. She gave those girls more. And she loved them- they were the only daughters she got to have, seeing as the Greens treachery caused the early death of baby Visenya. If she hadn't loved them, she wouldn't have trusted Rhaena to look after Joffrey or give her Morning's egg from Syrax. She wouldn't have immediately invited both girls to the table when she was queen, which is something her father did not do for her until much, much later. He allowed Rhaenyra's voice to be silenced too often when she was first made heir. Rhaenyra did not repeat that hurt to her girls or her boys.

Anyways, moving on.

You lot do also remember that Rhaenyra herself has Velaryon blood, right? Jaehaerys I's mother was Alyssa Velaryon. Aegon, Rhaenys, and Visenya the Conquerors' mother was Valaena Velaryon. It's not immediate, but there *is* Velaryon blood through *all* of Rhaenyras boys.

Ultimately, Rhaenyras boys were only in danger because of the core Green faction usurping the throne. If they hadnt- no succession crisis or rebellion could have truly threatened Rhaenyras boys- because none of them would have had dragons. All of Rhaenyras children loved one another- her sons by Daemon would not have turned on her sons with Laenor (and Harwin). They were a true, loving family- possibly one of the healthiest and most close knit one House Targaryen ever boasted.

And another thing... 'her having babies with Harwin was stupid, she should have picked someone Valyrian!'

Here's the thing. Rhaenyra had to be careful as hell choosing who would father her and Laenor's heirs. She had to choose someone who was physically close, and who could be trusted. Someone who wouldn't try to publicly claim those boys in boast or jealousy. Someone who would keep their mouth shut and had no ambition of their own in regards to the throne. Do you really think Vaemond Velaryon (as I see him suggested a lot) would've kept his mouth shut? That he wouldn't have tried to use this to blackmail Rhaenyra and Laenor for more power and status? Do you think Rhaenys would have ever fought for or supported Rhaenyra if Rhaenyra had tried to have Corlys sire her children? And flying to see Daemon in Pentos and having a purely Valyrian child 9 months later would have made things look even more suspect.

Furthermore... she chose someone who cared for her deeply. Who clearly had a positive relationship with Laenor. She chose someone so she wouldn't have to traumatize herself- she took power over her body in a way almost no Westerosi woman has ever been able to. They were a family unit- Rhaenyra, Laenor, and Harwin. Those children were loved and cherished by two fathers and their mother. They were raised never doubting their mothers love, nor their father's- either father. They were raised and educated to be true, good princes of the realm.

Rhaenyra fought like hell for her children. She was an incredible mother. Yall just believe everything the Green faction says without looking at it critically, and that's unfortunate as hell.

[imfromthemiddlekingdom]

I don’t understand the fandoms love for Daemon, by all rights he should be as hated as Joffrey was. Not only did he do almost everything Joffrey did, he also did worse. Even Tywin wouldn’t hold a candle to his cruelty. I understand liking a villainous character, I do too with Cersei and Tywin, but I’ve never went out of my way to whitewash their characters. I love them because they are villainous and practically irredeemable, if team black stans liked Daemon for his villainous actions before and during the Dance of Dragons I wouldn’t have any problems with it. But the fact that they go out of their way to defend him killing Rhea Royce because “he was forced into a marriage he didn’t like!!!!” As if she wasn’t too. And the fact that they defend him sending Blood and Cheese to psychologically torture Haelena and kill Jaehaerys due to “a son for a son it’s only right” when they despise Alicents moment of madness when her son was denied justice, makes me want to hurl.

It’s alright to like villainous characters, it doesn’t make you a bad person if you like them. But you know what makes you a moronic person? Whitewashing everything that makes a character compelling because you want to like them without seeming like a ‘bad person’. Your opinion on a character does not determine your own morality, it doesn’t make you better or worse than someone who hates them. But what it does, when you erase their entire identity as a rouge to make them more palatable to you, is make you seem moronic, stupid, and lacking any critical thinking and reading comprehension skills.

Rhaenyra is a compelling character because she is entitled and spoiled and lacks any political experience, she shows how badly Viserys fucked up when he tried to compensate for his guilt of murdering Aemma. Alicent is a compelling character because she is a mother who is trying her best to protect her children from the reality that if Daemon took the throne for Rhaenyra, he would kill all of them because they are a threat. She is even more of a compelling character in the books because of her ambition and cunning and want for her family to rise far above the ‘station’ of being a noble house in the Reach (as if house Hightower aren’t the oldest house in Westeros who could trace their lineage back to both the Garth Greenhand the high king of the first men and the Andal Kings that came afterwards). Daemon, for all that I dislike him as a character, is compelling for his ruthlessness and shortsightedness in his pursuit of the throne. He didn’t raise an army for Viserys because he thought he was a competent leader, he did it because it raised his own standing within Westeros, he groomed Rhaenyra not because he loved her, but because having him in her good graces means that he stood a better chance of being king after she was named heir. His ruthlessness is compelling. Taking it away to make him into a ‘malewife’ or a ‘loving father’ or a man who is lacking any ambition beyond wanting a valyrian wife is taking away his agency. It makes him seem like a Gary Sue who only wants the throne because his brother said Rhaenyra was heir. It makes it so that he is so completely white bread like that not even I, someone who loved the more morally bankrupt characters in ASOIAF can find him agreeable in any way shape or form.

Daemon is a fundamentally morally bankrupt character and he should stay that way. If you like him you should acknowledge and accept that he is one of the ‘bad guys’. Just as Cersei fans acknowledge and accept that she is fundamentally a morally bankrupt person who is selfish to the extreme. We like morally black characters because they are morally black. To make excuses for their actions is to take away their agency which makes them unlikable and very hate-able.

Daemons actions aren’t justifiable, blood and cheese would never be justified. A son for a son is akin to the visceral disgust the fandom had to Alicent when she asked for Lucerys’ eye, yet I bet when season two comes out and Blood and Cheese happens we’d see Daemon fans applauding and trying to justify it as ‘not that bad’ and ‘team green deserved it because of Aemond’s actions’ when little Jaehaerys, a boy of 6, was as far removed from the incident as can be. It would be akin to Team Green saying that due to Jaehaerys’ death, Aegon III or Viserys II deserved to have their head cut off in front of Rhaenyra.

Let morally bankrupt characters be morally bankrupt. You aren’t morally bankrupt because you like said character, it’s a fictional story loosely based on Empress Matilda. It’s not that deep. Like the characters you like without trying to justify their actions. They might be monstrous but you aren’t because you like them. It’s not a measure of your own character because you like said character. But it is a measure of your intelligence when you try to change said character’s entire personality to make it so that they are more digestible to you and everyone else.

[2rats1gogh]

“Jace, Luke and Joffrey weren’t usurpers, Corlys named them his heirs!”

Okay but Robert Baratheon also named Joffrey his heir, because he thought he was his son. But that doesn’t make Joffrey any less of an usurper, does it? Pretty much anyone who has seen the show considers Joffrey an usurper, because everybody fucking knows he has no claim to the throne.

[silverflameataraxia]

Sansa and Jeyne are the only people to call Arya ugly.

Meanwhile Ned, Jon, Gendry, Lady Smallwood, and the kindly man have all commented on her beauty, but this fandom ignores it in favor of two middle-school-aged mean girls who have to put Arya down to feel good about themselves.

[alishaaxo]

the way team black try to shit on stannis because he didnt support her irks me SO much 😭😭

n saying its karma and hes a hypocrite for having shireen as his heir??? NOO

having a daughter as heir is valid in andal law‼️

if viserys and stannis do that for rhaenyra and shireen thats fine! they can still pick their brother over a daughter becuz its murky waters but regardless, a daughter is still acceptable!!

stannis only doesnt support rhaenyra becuz viserys REMARRIED and had sons who by all means should be first in line as heir over any daughter!!

[rise-my-angel]

"Bastards are no different then trueborn children and don't deserve to be looked down on."

Can actually coexist with the following:

"Bastards cannot be legally trueborn, unless by official royal decree of the King himself, and tricking the realm into thinking your children are trueborn when you have never publically declared them as bastards, so they can inherit over their non bastard relatives, is treason."

The fan discussed moral argument about bastards in this universe are not the same as the in universe legal argument. Stop mistaking these two things and realize both discussions can co exist at the same time and both be correct.

[crimsonbastard]

"Criston Cole is an Incel! He called Rhaenyra slurs! He killed Innocent People! He led his men to a fiery death!"

Blah blah blah, I couldn't care less about him calling a White Woman of noble birth slurs, especially when the said woman carelessly endangered him and treated him as a sneaky link (He literally told her to "stop" and tried to walk away. Don't give me a hateful 10 Page essay on how he should've yeeted her or ran to Viserys, when he's her literal employee. I'll just fucking block you).

Calling Women Slurs? who doesn't in that sad medieval world? Women call Women slurs, Men call Women Slurs, it's misogyny battle royale, although it doesn't make it right, I would rather have him have beef with One Woman of higher class who personally wronged him rather than disrespect sex workers (which he doesn't). He in fact treats them respectfully.

He killed Innocent People!

- Nobody cares about Joffrey. Even if they do, they just bring him up to hate Cole and accuse him of homophobia. Honestly speaking, I would rather have Cole kill him in a tourney than a wedding.

- Beesebury, bro killed another Team Black Glazer? So what? Daemon gets brownie points for killing Vaemond who was speaking the truth about Rhaenyra committing treason by putting her bastsrds up for the Throne and Driftmark (the writers are so biased that they made him call her a whore just so that they can distract us from the fact that he was making sense), but Cole killing Beesebury who was accusing Alicent of committing Regicide is a big no?

Led his men to death by dragon fire. The keyword being "led his men". He WAS on the Battlefield, he was fighting alongside his men, he was getting his hands dirty, and he too was prepared to die for the cause.

He didn't sit back and grab a bucket of popcorn as he watched his men die. He fought with them and he would've died too if it weren't for the fluke of him falling.

He doesn't take responsibility for his faults.

- He asks Alicent to give him a merciful death when he willingly confessed his sin of sleeping with Rhaenyra.

- He tries to kill Himself after the wedding, if it weren't for Alicent.

- He's still suicidal and nihilistic, but only keeps going for Alicent.

Now comes the disclaimer that yes he can be hated for his crimes. But I'll say this, overhating his character is no longer funny, it has gone to the point where he's being placed in the same tier list as Joffrey, Ramsey and Daemon. Like people, he's not some psychopath who tortures and mutilates people after hunting them down with hounds, nor is he a rich privileged brat who sees people as playthings to inflict his cruelty on. Or someone who bashes his wife's head with a rock or orders hits on toddler's.

He's a douchebag for sure. But placing him in THAT tier with THOSE characters? Really?

[coffeebooksrain18]

The fact that TB says "the Stong boys are supposed to sit the throne! Bastards can inherit too!" And then say "Joffery is a bastard he can't sit the throne! Are you dumb? Bastards don't inherit anything!"

decide TB can bastards inherit or not!? And don't even bring up how their characters act, we're not talking about that, we're talking about if Bastards can inherit. Both Joffery and the strong boys are not legitimized, so don't say Joffery couldn't sit the throne cause he wasn't legitimized.

[the-witch-of-woods-beyond]

actually despise the take that rhaenyra trying to put her sons on the throne is equivalent to cersei lying about her own children’s parentage to put them on the throne and so both of them are not worthy of the throne because no, no that’s so blatantly wrong. cersei was queen CONSORT, rhaenyra was QUEEN. she was 100% their mother and they were her blood. it doesn’t matter that they might not have been laenor’s (something that isn’t even confirmed in the book) because they were rhaenyra’s and SHE was heir to the throne, so her bloodline would still succeed her. because cersei was queen consort, if people found out joffrey was fully a lannister then he wouldn’t have been able to rightfully claim the throne because robert, a baratheon, was king. and robert’s bastards also had a claim to the throne, which is made evident by tywin having them all killed so joffrey could become king with minimum threats, and by gendry being said to have some claim to the throne in the fandom and later season.

[spacerockfloater]

Honestly, the house Stark (specifically Sansa) stan to house Hightower (specifically Alicent) stan pipeline is so real. It warms my heart that most of the GOT fans who have a soft spot for the Starks sympathise with the Targtowers.

I am genuinely offended that the Team Black folks think they’re one with the Stark fans because Cregan promised Rhaenyra he’d side with her on the war (despite not thinking that she’s important enough to come to her aid immediately, marching down only when the war was over and executing those who poisoned Aegon II). It gives off the same icky energy as when someone who looks entirely different than you calls you ‘twin’: bitch, no the fuck we ain’t! Did you miss Cregan’s first ever voice line in the show? “Duty is sacrifice.” That’s a whole ass parallel to Alicent’s “Where is duty? Where is sacrifice?” that you can’t ignore.

And I can’t help but laugh each time someone says that Ned would do right by Rhaenyra. Like, no the fuck he wouldn’t! One look at her firstborns and he would have marched straight to Dragonstone! We’re just completely overriding show canon for the shake of delusion at this point.

Anyways, stan house Stark and house Baratheon for wiping the Targaryens off the face of the earth forevermore!

[sansahightower]

Sick of these 4

[atopvisenyashill]

when i'm writing something meta-y i like to look at what other people are saying to see if i'm forgetting a detail or something but that's impossible when it comes to joffrey because every single post is like "no he didn't even suspect for one moment that he was a bastard" oh so his clear switch up from "my uncle jaime" to "YOUR BROTHER JAIME" despite him constantly referring to tyrion, stannis, and renly as simply "uncle" means nothing of course "oh he isn't deep at all he's a cartoon villain" so the story cersei tells about robert almost killing him is completely irrelevant than, right right "joffrey isn't capable of love he's nothing but a sociopath" he literally calls out for his mommy every time he needs something my GOD

[drakaripykiros130ac]

Sometimes I get the feeling that people in this fandom don’t understand the meaning of an oath.

The Asoiaf world may be fantasy, but it is still based on real-life medieval setting.

In European medieval times, the values of the Church were held in high regard, and a person’s word actually meant something. When someone made a promise/an oath, especially a noble, it was expected of that person to honor it. Failure to do so resulted in dire consequences.

It’s not like it is now in modern 21st century, when everyone makes promises they end up breaking eventually and it’s like *shrug* “oh well, too bad” and no consequences follow.

So, when the Lords of the Realm swore oaths to uphold the ascension of Rhaenyra Targaryen on the Iron Throne, they were not at all “stale” or “meaningless”, as Otto Hightower tries to argue (that’s modern mentality and kind of poor writing on the part of the showrunners). It’s a pledge made in the name of a House.

And just because some of the Lords who swore those oaths died, that doesn’t mean that those oaths died with them (as the Lannisters, who have no honor whatsoever, try to argue). The oaths were made on behalf of Houses, not individuals, and therefore, the Houses as a whole were expected to respect them.

The reason Rhaenyra Targaryen had most of the Realm on her side is because the majority of Westerosi Houses understand the meaning of an oath. They also acknowledge that with the absence of an actual succession law, Rhaenyra Targaryen is the rightful Queen of the Seven Kingdoms.