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Lingthusiasm Episode 88: No such thing as the oldest language
It's easy to find claims that certain languages are old or even the oldest, but which one is actually true? Fortunately, there's an easy (though unsatisfying) answer: none of them! Like how humans are all descended from other humans, even though some of us may have longer or shorter family trees found in written records, all human languages are shaped by contact with other languages. We don't even know whether the oldest language(s) was/were spoken or signed, or even whether there was a singular common ancestor language or several.
In this episode, your hosts Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne get enthusiastic about what people mean when we talk about a language as being old. We talk about how classifying languages as old or classical is often a political or cultural decision, how the materials that are used to write a language influence whether it gets preserved (from clay to bark), and how people talk about creoles and signed languages in terms of oldness and newness. And finally, how a language doesn't need to be justified in terms of its age for whether it's interesting or worthy of respect.
Click here for a link to this episode in your podcast player of choice or read the transcript here.
Here are the links mentioned in the episode:
Lingthusiasm episode 'Tracing languages back before recorded history'
'My Big Fat Greek Wedding- Give me any word and I show you the Greek root' on YouTube
Glottolog entry for 'classical'
Wikipedia entry for 'Complaint tablet to Ea-nāṣir'
Wikipedia entry for 'Bath curse tablets'
Wikipedia entry for 'Cuneiform'
Wikipedia entry for 'Mesopotamian writing systems'
Wikipedia entry for 'Home Sign'
Lingthusiasm episode 'Villages, gifs, and children: Researching signed languages in real-world contexts with Lynn Hou'
Wikipedia entry for 'Al-Sayyid Bedouin Sign Language'
Wikipedia entry for 'Kata Kolok' (also known as Benkala Sign Language)
True Biz by Sara Nović on Goodreads
Gretchen's thread about reading True Biz
You can listen to this episode via Lingthusiasm.com, Soundcloud, RSS, Apple Podcasts/iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also download an mp3 via the Soundcloud page for offline listening.
To receive an email whenever a new episode drops, sign up for the Lingthusiasm mailing list.
You can help keep Lingthusiasm ad-free, get access to bonus content, and more perks by supporting us on Patreon.
Lingthusiasm is on Bluesky, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Mastodon, and Tumblr. Email us at contact [at] lingthusiasm [dot] com
Gretchen is on Bluesky as @GretchenMcC and blogs at All Things Linguistic.
Lauren is on Bluesky as @superlinguo and blogs at Superlinguo.
Lingthusiasm is created by Gretchen McCulloch and Lauren Gawne. Our senior producer is Claire Gawne, our production editor is Sarah Dopierala, our production assistant is Martha Tsutsui Billins, and our editorial assistant is Jon Kruk. Our music is ‘Ancient City’ by The Triangles.
This episode of Lingthusiasm is made available under a Creative Commons Attribution Non-Commercial Share Alike license (CC 4.0 BY-NC-SA).
#linguistics#language#lingthusiasm#episodes#podcast#podcasts#episode 88#language history#oldest language#classical languages#ancient languages#sign language#home sign#cuneiform#writing technology#writing systems#SoundCloud
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#this is a joke about the “humans saw this and invented <technology>” meme#this isn't a joke about the fibonacci sequence specifically yall are writing fanfic about my meme in the notes
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Google docs is not a word processor and Word is a crappy one that wants you to do everything its way, rather than your way. As a touch typist, I use Word Perfect by preference; all indications are that it was developed by and for touch typists and has never abandoned that demographic. Also, I can look at the damn code and see where I accidentally inserted the invisible box that's messing everything up and delete it with a single stroke, then hide the codes again, with no argument from the program. I'm sure there's other programs that would also suit me, but I've been using Word Perfect for most of my adult life and see no reason to change now. Its document statistics also serve my particular needs very well - I don't know any other program that tells you what your longest sentence is, and I really need to know so I can hunt it down and split it up.
Anyway, copy/paste works across most platforms. For AO3 specifically I open the New Work, change the format to RTF, copy/paste into it, and then do my final final revision while going through and putting in minimal formatting, mostly italicizing things. I can work in html if I have to, but it clutters things up so and detracts from the words, makes my mistakes harder to spot. Other platforms involve similar procedures, adapted to the mechanics of the platform.
Longhand drafting also happens, but that's primarily for noodling around while I'm trying to work things out. Composing directly is so much more efficient than transcribing, and doesn't require that I puzzle out my own handwriting.
Reblog for sample size!
#polls#writing technology#please I beg you stop using inferior programs just 'cause they're free#libre office is also free#non sims
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the computer blade | source
#i do not know enough about pi clusters to write ids for this post. apologies#talos gifs#stim gifs#stim#tech stim#technology#techcore#computers#raspberry pi#circuit boards#wires#cables#blinking lights#glow#plastic#black#gray#purple#pink#blue#green#cyberpunk#robotcore#robot stim
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Columbo and the Knight (1984)
put me in the universe where Columbo ran through the 1980s and had a crossover episode with Knight Rider. I think they deserved it, and I am not just saying that because they're my two favorite Old Shows. @telebeast wrote a little fanfic blurb about it and I HAD to visualize it into a comic (which is also the longest comic I have finished thus far at five pages...), so writing credit goes to them.
Autism W!
#columbo#knight rider#art#michael knight#kitt#comic#highlight reel#crossover#telebeast#there are two small easter eggs here. can you find them. they were somehow not Entirely lost when i resized these for the public#this is what i mean when i say I Draw And It's Everyone Else's Problem. look at my INCREDIBLY niche crossover comic boy#if the knight rider fandom has like 12 people in it. how many of y'all have seen columbo#this comic is for like 4 people and me and phoenix are already two of them#niche is my specialty lets be real. weird niche obscure shit and ships nobody's paid attention to yet#not to suggest this is ship art. columbo has his wife and michael has his car lmfao#stylizing real people is EXTREMELY hard btw sorry for when they get off model. its partly a 'better imperfect than never finished' situatio#cant tell you how much i redrew some of these panels. weeps#this took me 2 weeks but i think i thumbnailed it all in may and the ideas been rollin around in my head since march#is anybody good at editing. please edit michael and columbo into an image together like its a screenshot. NOT generated. edited.#it would be so cool#ive drawn columbo a lot but i haven't drawn a lot of michaels. i was learning things about his outfit AS I WAS DOING THE DAMN#COLORS ON THIS. all the lines done. it was too late to change anything. i did all the lines and colored page by page#i realized my mistakes on like page 3. 1 and 2 were already done. it was Too Late.#imagine it though. them working a case together. switching between the more serious tone of columbo vs the goofier#action antics of michael and kitt. columbo being so impressed by Modern Technology. there's more i could say but phoenix may write#more of this crossover and i don't want to spoil it :'3#there's opportunity here though i swear. there's gold to be dug.#i like how kitt gets shading but columbo's junker peugeot doesn't. kitt looked wrong without any. columbo's car is matte and dirty#i also applied effects to this to make it look a little film-grainy and VHS like. some CRT TV vibes#the only question left is. did they put knight rider into columbo; or columbo into knight rider 🤔
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꒰ 𝐍𝐎 𝐎𝐍𝐄 𝐁𝐔𝐓 𝐘𝐎𝐔 ꒱ 이민형
summary : one thing about your boyfriend, mark, is that he would always take care of you — even if you were annoyingly drunk — and he was embarrassingly in love
genre : fluff, mark x afab!reader, slice of life tws : language, kissing, mentions of alcohol, pet names author notes : oh he’d be a good boyfriend i just know it word count : 1k
it’s a good thing the elevator in your apartment hadn’t gone out yet, otherwise the man on your arm would’ve been upset—though he’d never let you know that.
he just loved you too much for that. and you kept telling him about how much of a good night it was for you; he’d never dream of ruining that.
“baby,” he stated quietly, pulling your arm around his waist higher, as it kept slipping. “hold on, just a little longer… why’d you have to live on the 10th floor? thank god the elevator isn’t out. is the view really worth it though?” he watched the numbers climb, illuminated electronically above the door.
your eyebrows furrowed, and though you were hunched against him, you willed your head up. deadpanning, you replied. “duh.” to which he just laughed at. “you just don’t get it mark! have you seen it? it’s beautiful! not more than you, but you know.”
“many times—actually, i helped you move in, baby.”
you giggled, head falling into his side. “y-yeah, you did… do you remember haechan falling up the stairs? he wasn’t even carrying anything heavy! oh my god, it was so funny i swear i peed my pants!”
mark thought that, for a drunk girl, you were very good at not sounding slurred with your words. however, standing or walking in a straight line were two very different tasks for you to accomplish in this state. but he thought it was cute that you thought of him to pick you up and make sure you got home safely. he loved that you loved him so much; shared so many memories with him and were still willing to make more. and truthfully, he loved you more.
the elevator dinged, the voice telling you that the doors were now opening. mark braced his arm around you tighter, hiking you up to be, at least a little, straighter.
you trudged along, holding him back with his attempts to keep a steady pace. you knew it was difficult to move on your own accord in your current state but, honestly you could’ve just fallen asleep on the floor if you fell.
“work—with—me—here, y/n. please,” he gritted, practically dragging your giggling figure. “do you even want to sleep in your own bed?”
your eyes narrowed soberly. “are you staying?”
“will that make you walk faster?”
as if possessed, the thought alone was enough to make you straighten your back and begin willing your legs to move—clumsily, but you knew your boyfriend was still a crutch to make sure you didn’t hit the floor.
he laughed in disbelief, then relief once you two finally had made it to your numbered door; mark putting in the passcode and it chiming with satisfaction.
“you scare me sometimes, baby.”
you hopped in place, the door swinging open with the length of his arm. you slumped against the wall, unhooking the strap of your heels and kicking them off.
“let’s go to bed!” and when you were about take off down the hall, a hand grabbed yours and stopped you—your feet comically still stomping in place. your eyebrows furrowed, and you looked over your shoulder in confusion.
“first,” he started, leading you down the hall; for a moment you thought he just didn’t want you to run, but he turned off into your bathroom. he hit the switch and illuminated the room, your eyes shutting instinctively. “your makeup.”
you whined, trying to get out of his grip. “no.”
“you’ll kill me in the morning, babe,” he grabbed your waist, hoisting you onto the counter and trapping you with his body. “it won’t take long.”
your pinky swung from the porcelain and into his view, “promise.” you weren’t asking, and that made him laugh.
his pinky connected with yours. “promise.” he replied adamantly, mimicking your movement and kissing the end of his balled fist.
he got to work, grabbing the remover and a couple cotton rounds. he gently swiped your skin, and you swear your head kept drifting to the side with tiredness. you couldn’t help that your boyfriend was the sole reason you could get a good-nights sleep. instead of trying to keep you up, he grabbed it, huffing out another laugh at your antics, but letting you fully fall asleep in his hand.
mark admired you as he tried his best to get the mascara off, smudging it and making you look a little foolish. he thought you were cute; the way your lips were parted, small snores leaving them. the slight crease of your brows as he put your moisturizer and serums on. he swears he could feel his heart swell, knowing you were just that comfortable around him—so adamant to have him by your side—to have him love you.
and he did.
he loved you so fucking much. his future was you. if he was your world, you were his sun. you were his lifeline. you were the one person he knew he could rely on without contest. if he was a producer, you were his muse. everything revolved around you. even if his thoughts weren’t originally for you, they’d eventually make their way back to you. he was excited to talk to you about anything and everything. he was blindsided by a love as strong as this mutual one. he’d die for you, and that’s why he lives.
honestly, he was so embarrassingly emotional right now for you, he could feel the tears welling up.
he swallowed the lump in his throat, grabbing the other side of your head and watching as you blinked blearily.
you smiled sleepily. “when’d you get here, baby?”
he could feel your arms climb to be around his neck, pulling him and simultaneously pushing yourself to get body-to-body. you always craved the warmth (even without thinking) like you were cold-blooded.
“i’m always here.” he kissed the side of your mouth, whispering against your lips. “now, let’s go to bed?”
reblogs, likes and comments are greatly appreciated! thank u!
— perm tag list .ᐟ send an ask to be added c:
#(˚ ༘ 🦕𖦹) soph’s fics ᡣ𐭩#kpop#kpop requests#kpop writing#kpop imagines#kpop oneshots#kpopidol#kpop bg#mark lee#nct ff#nct drabbles#nct fluff#nct fanfic#nct x reader#nct u#nct imagines#nct dream#nct scenarios#nct#nct 127#nct mark#nct mark lee#nct 127 mark#nct dream mark#nct 127 fanfic#nct dream fluff#nct dream fic#nct 127 fic#nct 127 fluff#neo culture technology
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@animangacreators challenge ⟡ spring 2024
↳ WIND BREAKER
You haven't given up on others yet. And you don't need to give up. At the least I'm looking your way, Sakura. So why don't you look this way as well? If you do, I'm sure… you'll become what you want to be.
#wind breaker#wbkedit#windbreakeredit#wbk#animangahive#anime gif#*gifs#usertorichi#fyanimegifs#animangaboys#animeedit#userhanyi#userinahochi#usermoonz#userjenny#usercomfort#userkyaa#userartless#usericybtch#himawaari#user.roy#believe it or not this took 5 hours to make LMAO#not to sound like a grandma but TECHNOLOGY IS CONSPIRING AGAINST MEEEE#my laptop died haha i lost everything. so i had to resurrect an old laptop for this and u would not believe the extent to which ps fought m#also this laptop is so geriatric to the point multiple keys stopped working like#imagine navigating a laptop without the letters n m or v. every single one of those letters u see here had to be copy pasted#tech may b against me BUT MY WILLPOWER IS STRONGER.#and the result is. the most basic ass gifset of all time lmao#btw tried to go for a more muted coloring here which is different from my usual style#ANYWAYS this show is so good i genuinely did not expect to love it as much as i did. insane character writing
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continuing that "maya tries to contact claire" post, i present you the post-Spirit of Justice follow-up
#post that caters to ME specifically#let me first tag#ghost trick spoilers#lost future spoilers#now that that's out of the way. you know who's on that suitcase ;)#also claire is fucked up by time travel shenanigans so it's possible let's just say#also ghost powers grow and change with time sooooo. let's play with canon#layton “i have a dead girlfriend” and yomiel “i had a dead girlfriend” bisexuals#also yes the whole gang traveled to london they're just strolling around#maya had unfinished business and now that she's more powerful she's BACK#this would take place 7-or-so years after lost future/plvspw so layton is in his mid-forties here. i had to look it so correct me if im not#also yes this is a crossover AU i have rotating in my mind i love the source material and layton's and claire whole thing no shade to that#powerful narrative that made me cry#but with aa and gt magic fuckery we have the technology#also about the jail bit. that's a fic i am writing (one sentence every month)#ghost trick#professor layton#ace attorney#my art#ms paint#GOD. that wall of text is surely something
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Red Robin and the Undead Earpiece.
Back again with another prompt! Although, I might start branching out to a couple of different fandoms in the future, idk.
Tim, when he was going on his Lazarus pit destruction crusade, accidentally drops his comm link in said pit. He was able to fish it out, and aside from the slight glowing, still works fine. Yay for durability!
Things are normal, and apparently Lazarus water encrypts his comm, who knew. But then he starts hearing teenagers voices over it, going on about ghosts, avoiding the government, and even their parents hunting them down.
Unfortunately, the Lazarus waters encryption work both ways, so Tim is having difficulty pinning down where the signal is coming from. At least he can give a few friendly tips to these young heroes.
Tl:dr, Tim drops his earpiece into Lazarus waters and can now hear everything team phantom is saying over the radio.
#dp x dc#dpxdc#dc x dp#dp x dc crossover#dp x dc prompt#dc x dp crossover#dc x dp prompt#dcxdp#dp x dc au#dp x dc writing prompt#dc x dp au#Tim Drake discovers ecto-technology#Can Tim hear dead people on his comm link now?#Like on a regular basis?#Can he now get ghost tips from victims???
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Anti-technology people who insist they're not ableist crack me up. What about people who rely on machines to breathe, eat, keep their heart functioning, or otherwise stay alive? "Well not that technology, obviously!" Ok what about AAC users, people who use hearing aids, or otherwise use technology to interact with the world in ways they otherwise couldn't? "Not that technology, obviously." Okay, my mobile phone is my memory, my sense of time, my sense of direction when I get lost, my ability to contact someone when I need help. It is my personal freedom because without it I would need full time care and supervision. But yes, that technology, right?
I hate how technology is made and utilised under capitalism as much as the next guy, but to pretend that technology doesn't greatly improve the lives of countless people, or even allow them to continue being alive, is to be willfully ignorant to the existence of disabled people. A world without technology is a world where a lot of disabled people don't get to survive. Capitalism is the problem, not the technology. Technology can (and should) exist just fine without capitalism.
#cripplepunk#cripple punk#disability#anti tech#actually disabled#don't even get me started on how technology is necessary to synthesise a lot of vital medicines#A whole lot of supposedly left wing ideologies rely on just pretending that disabled people don't exist#Or even outright admitting that we would no longer exist in their 'ideal' future#Apparently eugenics is fine if you put an anti-capitalist badge on it#Anti tech is ecofascism you can't change my mind#(Side note I forgot the word activism for a solid 5 minutes writing this and I'm scared)#eco fascism#1k#2k#3k
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the brainrot is extreme. heres another silly doodle (ノ≧▽≦)ノΞ●~*
+ obligatory close up of the cute little faces lol
#extremely shitty resolution soz#saiki k#the disastrous life of saiki k.#digital art#dirtbag's saiki k vault >:)#this may or may not be a scene from something im writing... youll see.....#and if anyone asks the poor quality is just to prevent ppl from using it to train ai hahaha'''''''#def not.... just because im bad with technology.....#OH MY GOD WHO SAID THAT????
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the shittiest human art will always be leagues better than the best ai "art". a child's finger paintings and macaroni crafts will always be better than a computer's subpar attempt at recreating the starry night. your stick figures and smiley faces will always surpass an algorithm's bastardized boticelli painting. the most mediocre hallmark movie will always be better than whatever bullshit sora churns out. the most cringeworthy "i'm 14 and this is deep" notes app poetry will always be better than whatever chatgpt can come up with. always
#ai art#ai generated#ai image#ai artwork#artificial intelligence#chatgpt#technology#artistic parallels#artwork#art#anti ai#fuck ai#fuck ai art#stop ai#protect your art#anti ai art#writing#creative writing#film#writers strike#sag afra strike#wga strike#feelings#literature#books and literature#dark academia#light academia#chaotic academia
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Not to sound like a boomer on main, because I love my phone- I do. But I really miss the day when I could hang out in public without having to hear everyone else's phones. I don't care if there are babies crying (because babies cry sometimes) or if other people are having conversations (because that's what people come to cafes and such to do) but hearing tinny little phone sounds blasting out loud out of their speakers drives me insane. I'm only in my 30's, why are you making me complain about how things were "back in my day" like I'm 80? Public phone noise is prematurely aging me. Send help.
#Complaining#Like an old lady#I'm not I swear#But also- Back in my day#*shakes fist at sky*#It's giving “Old man screams at cloud”#I am the old man#Only Im not a man Im a woman and instead of screaming at clouds im slowly having my sanity stolen by people watching videos on their phones#out loud in public spaces#Can we normalize not doing this?#Use headphones or something#Please- I beg of you#technology#cafe#coffee shop#writing#im just trying to write a fun little story i don't care whats happening on your phone#keep it to yourself
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#curators on tumblr#tea#teapot#tea cup#tea set#teacup#candle#candlelight#candes#book#books#journal#diary#study#studying#literature#laptop#technology#writing#cozycore
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One thing I noticed talking about Linux and free software is that a lot of people seem afraid of learning things about technology. I constantly read things like "I hate windows, but switching to linux would mean learning a new OS, and you have to be some super-smart programmer-hacker to do that." Or even: "Switching to firefox would mean switching browsers and I don't know how"
And that is precisely the attitude tech companies like Microsoft and Apple try to instill in their users in order to control them. They create these simple and “friendly” user interfaces for their products, but these hide information. From their OS being pre-installed to their settings apps, they keep people from learning things about how their computer works, and letting the companies make the decisions for their users.
I think people are underestimating themselves and overestimating how hard it is to learn new things are. It is like Windows/Macos have taught them some kind of technological learned helplessness. Not knowing how computers work and being afraid to learn how is how companies like Microsoft controls you, and justifies that control.
For example, people hate the forced and automatic system updates on Windows. And Microsoft justifies it as necessary because some people don’t know that their computer needs security updates and therefore don’t update, so they have to force the updates on them. That’s definitely true, and Microsoft’s tech support people is definitely very aware of that but it is a operating system that presumes that the user is incompetent and therefore shouldn’t control their own computer. And of course Microsoft abuses that power to force privacy-invading features on their users. Windows updates are also badly designed in comparison, no Linux distro I’ve used required the update program to hijack the entire computer, preventing the user from doing other things, but Windows does.
This is the dark side of “user-friendly” design. By requiring zero knowledge and zero responsibility for the user, they also take control away from the user. User-friendly graphical user interfaces (GUI) can also hide the inner workings of a system in comparison to the command line, which enables more precise control of your computer and give you more knowledge about what it is doing.
Even GUIs are not all made equal in regards to this, as the comparison between the Windows Control panel and their newer Settings app demonstrates. As I complained about before, Windows have hidden away the powerful, but complex Control Panel in favor of the slicker-looking but simplified and less powerful Settings app for over a decade now.
Of course this is a sliding scale, and there is a sensible middle-ground between using the command line for everything and user-friendly design masking taking control away from the end user.
There are Linux distros like Linux Mint and MX Linux who have created their own GUI apps for tasks that would otherwise use the command line, without taking control away from the user. This is mainly because they are open source non-profit community-driven distros, instead of being proprietary OSes made by profit-driven megacorps.
Still, giving that control to the user presumes some knowledge and responsibility on part of the user. To return to the update example, by default both Mint and MX will search and notify you of available updates, but you will have to take the decision to download and install them. Automatic updates are available in both cases, but it’s opt-in, you have to enable that option yourself. And that approach presumes that you know that you should update your system to plug security holes, something not all people do. It gives you control because it presumes you have knowledge and can take responsibility for those decisions.
All this also applies to the underlying fact that practically all pre-built computers nowadays have an operating system pre-installed. Few people install an OS themselves nowadays, instead they use whatever came with the computer. It’s usually either Windows or MacOS for desktops/laptops, and Android/IOS for smartphones (which are also a type of computer).
Now all this is very convenient and user-friendly, since it means you don’t have to learn how to install your own operating system. The OEM takes care of that for you. But again, this is a convenience that takes choice away from you. If you don’t learn how to install your own OS, you are stuck with whatever that is on the computer you bought. It’s probably precisely this step that scares people away from Linux, few people have installed even Windows, and installing your own OS seems impossibly scary. But again, learning is the only way to take back control. If you learn how to install an OS off an USB stick, you now have choices in what OS to use. (Sidenote: the hard part IMO is not the actual install process, but fiddling with the BIOS so it will actually boot from the distro on the USB stick. This old comic strip illustrates this very well).
That’s how life is in general, not just computers. Having control over your life means making decisions based on your own judgment. And to make sensible, rational decisions, you have to learn things, acquire knowledge.
The only other alternative is letting others take those decisions for you. You don’t have to learn anything, but you have no control. And in the tech world, that means big corporations like Microsoft, Google and Apple will make those decisions, and they are motivated by their own profits, not your well-being.
Computers have only become more and more capable and more important in our lives, and that can enable wonderful things. But it also means more power to the tech companies, more power over our lives. And the only way to resist that is to learn about computers, to enable us to make our own decisions about how we use technology.
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Why would you—That's not—I just wanted to ask for help, why did you have to go and make it awkward???
[First] Prev <–-> Next
#poorly drawn mdzs#mdzs#wei wuxian#xue yang#Its such a relief to not have to draw so many characters once again.#Redrawing the specific font from the English translated mdzs books was surprisingly fun!#Maybe I'm alone in this...but I think characters switching to a different font of speech for *emphasis* is peak comedy#you can't communicate voice changes of sound very well in non audio forms so this is the best I can do.#Anyways...rip Xue Yang. You finally meet your idol and he brushes you off#Rather— he doesn't live up to the expectations you built in your head#Kind of an on going issue there Jester (I refuse to call him king or sir)#XY is constantly making people out to be the versions he needed them to be to feel justified in his actions#but struggles to pivot when confronted with the fact that these ppl are *more* than just one surface reading!#wwx doesn't actually think xy is flirting. He's just tired of all the fake fans + wants to get out of this convo.#button mashing the A button to skip the unskippable cutscene#Lan Wangji is in the next comic btw. I've missed him dearly. I'm sorry he's been gone so long </3#edit: poorly spelt MDZS strikes again. This is why I need more time to write my comics. So I can actually proofread B*(#edit2: I cast 'Power of Technology' and fixed my error. Everyone reblog this version instead please
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