#tulpas are invalid

[bloodonvalentine]

i wish i wasn't a system. i wish i could be normal. live a normal life. remember things i need to remember and forget the things i should forget. i wish i wasn't a system.

[bloodonvalentine]

hey @sophieinwonderland you should totally read this and learn what an awful excuse for a human you are

actually, since i already commented on your post about tulpas and how they pissed me off; im gonna do it again. in detail.

note: i am a former buddhist, i live in a buddhist country. (95% of thais are buddhists) and pretty much been surrounded by it. im asian. saying it before people jump at me because im terrified as shit

as i mentioned, tulpas are stolen and bastardized completely from a tribe of tibetan buddhists, and the practice itself isn't even a system thing. while thai buddhism and tibetan buddhism are different in their own way, i am very fucking pissed off that they just saw the concept of a thoughtform spirit that helps you meditate, overcome your fear and guide you to nirvana (because that's the main purpose of buddhism) and turn them into "oh! we make alters because we can due to our meditation and we're spiritual so that totally excuses using a generally closed practice! we're not harming anyone!" total bullshit.

i don't want (and sorry if i'm a bit mean) those bigoted fucks stealing basically my culture since im attached to buddhism in general, i grew up with it. and "tulpa systems" slapping it on themselves for the sake of being "unique". i have seen countless comments and posts about how its always the white/non asian people that say "no its not a closed practice, its not cultural appropriation :) actually you should be glad we're appreciating your culture in the first place" fuck off! appreciating culture is fine, but you bastardize it so much and dumb it down to just "making alters/imaginary friends" are you just hearing yourself? are you stupid? are you braindead? god, im getting so angry again.

i have also seen "tulpamancers" insulting actual asians like me who speak against tulpas, saying that we're just "asian token of a character" or that we're "closed minded" and should accept these assholes who dont know what theyre doing into my culture and blatantly disrespecting it, spitting on it and just taking one practice that fits their narrative. wow, talk about being appreciative while half of your community does shit like this to actual buddhists, huh? real nice of you. way to go, you cultural appropriating fucks. /vneg

i cannot count how many times asian culture is so whitewashed on the internet, people that just take our tradition and do whatever the hell they want with it, including making a system out of thoughtforms, which is not possible whatsoever. and for what? FOR WHAT? for your own sick entertainment and enjoyment of having a imaginary friend in your head? try dissociating so hard you cry yourself to sleep you absolute pillock. this is a very angry submission, but it just frustrates me so much. all of the insulting "yous" are directed towards "tulpamancers" that they proudly call themselves. by the way. sorry if it sounded like it was directed at you, im just so angry at the moment.

one last thing. Stop. Using. The Term. Tulpa. For your system. Please!!!!. tulpa systems are not a thing and will never be. End of story. Nothing will change that. Endos fuck off. im sick of your shit. thanks for reading my angry rant.

-azriel for the majority of this, rox/virus proofreading some of the parts, thanks for letting us vent ^^

i dont have much to add, please read this ^^

[bupsafr3ak]

"Real Systems cant have 100 headmates or more w bodily minor"

"Ou cant have (fictive of a recent source) because this and that"

Bitch, do you know how a system works?? We don’t choose and if the headmate will appear or not, we have no control over the number of headmates, and yes, fictitious they take time to form but tulpas exist, stop looking for reasons to invalidate other systems just because you insecure, Stop projecting your insecurities on others 😭😭

[sysmedsaresexist]

Hello there!

Im coming from a place of genuine curiosity; I have a genuine interest in Psychology but im still very new to the topic. At the same time I have multiple friends who are Plural, ranging from DID to Endogenic and I have been trying to learn to better understand em but also myself.

I am a bit confused with regards to certain stances or understanding what you are trying to imply, I apologize if this is something you've made obvious in the past.

You've done a 180 from your old Anti-Endo stance yet looking through some posts I feel like a lot of evidence you share would be against Endogenic Plurality no? Mind ya I know your focus is still mainly CDD systems so there wouldn't be much opportunities to share research on that, but im regardless confused at what appears to me like a back and forth on the validity of Endogenic and the stance the Plural community has on including multiple systems under its umbrella... or am I misunderstanding some things? (I do struggle with sarcasm so apologies).

Apologies should this come off as confrontational, im just a bit confused reading through the various posts.

You're not coming off as confrontational! Though I'm not completely sure I understand the question. I'm going to try my best!

The beliefs of the mods on this blog vary. We all have different ideas about how CDDs work and what's possible in and outside of them. This makes us a really great team for tackling some of the more complicated questions where we can showcase a few different opinions.

I think, generally, we're in agreement about a few core things.

CDDs are childhood trauma disorders. That won't change. That's just a fact. This is in the DSM.

In my opinion, CDDs are not plural and should NOT be included under the plural umbrella. I think lumping a traumatized and disordered group of individuals under an umbrella specifically meant for non disordered experiences is a bad idea. TPA, I'm looking at you telling CDD systems they're not allowed to have personhood for benefitting from a medical view.

Some of this shit hurts. Like not just hurts the CDD community, but it's a punch to the gut.

Also, in my opinion, and living comfortably alongside that, plural and CDD experiences overlap for some people, but this isn't universal and shouldn't be treated as such. It does happen, though, and those experiences are valid and should be respected. I don't go into conversations looking to change minds or prove someone is traumagenic, I'm genuinely interested in hearing about people's experiences and trying to reconcile my own beliefs and ideas with new information. Occasionally, this is a mutual exchange of ideas, and minds DO change. Sometimes mine, sometimes theirs. This isn't a case of turning pros to antis or vice versa with gotchas, though. I've shifted my mindset from arguing to simply sharing as much information as I possibly can. Everyone should be armed with all the accessible information. These arguments would be a lot less volatile if we all had access to the same base articles and info.

In my opinion, there's still a lot of rampant misinformation in pro/endo communities. TPA makes me want to tear my hair out.

My belief in this needed separation does nothing to invalidate endogenic systems, and doesn't say they can't exist. The misinformation I'm talking about isn't their existence.

I think I'm actually the only blog to have a post dedicated to links about the Stanford tulpa studies. I could be wrong, but I don't think anyone else compiled them for easy access and linking.

My blog is still focused on CDD research and correcting some of the myths and misinformation, but I don't think this invalidates endogenic plurality in any way.

I do, on occasion, post research into endogenic systems, but that isn't my focus. I would actually say my focus has shifted to interacting with anti endos to introduce them to some of the ideas that helped open my mind.

I am NOT the most pro endo system on this platform, but I am pro endo--

And I am trying to act as that bridge between communities with the best intentions possible. I know, I know, the road to hell is paved with good intentions, but I... ultimately hope that in the end, I help both communities, in my own unique way.

At the very least, I don't want to cause more harm for either community.

My unique way, though, does not discount the existence of plurality, it's just not my focus, and I'm still battling basic misinformation in the process, which can get... messy. At times.

I hope this answers the question, genuinely, feel free to come back to talk more!

[sirenium]

Greetings and salutations to trans men who are lesbians. You aren't straight if you don't identify as such, and you're certainly not invalidating other experiences! There's no one way to experience being a trans man, nor is there a wrong way to express being a lesbian.

Hello and welcome to people who otherwise identify as lesboys for whatever reason! Are you multigender? Cool! butch who also considers themself a man? Tubular! Genderfluid? Rad! Man adjacent regardless of gender? Wicked! Keep being you!

Guten Tag, Guten Abend (good day, good evening) to gaybians! Don't let nobody tell you your identity is invalid. You're allowed to use all the labels that feel comfortable to you!

Make some noise for the people who use/identify with xenogenders! It's your gender, so do whatever you want with it! This includes those of us who are xenic adults, as well.

Can we get a warm welcome for endo systems? How about tulpas? You're not racist or ableist for having a different system origin! Mixed origin? Quoigenic? Any other type of origin? Y'all are rad, too. Keep being you.

Keep vibing, everyone I mentioned here, as well as those with any other good faith identities I missed!

[bloodonvalentine]

Mixed origin isn't possible. There may be ALTERS who formed of other causes, but the system is ultimately formed from trauma. "Mixed origins" is a mislabelling of traumagenic or "endogenic" depending on the person. The only valid and POSSIBLE way to form a system is through trauma.

Also I find saying traumagenic systems excluding people who are very likely faking "ableist" very funny. Traumagenic systems are REAL systems, none of your "mixed origin" or "endo" bs.

Hope this helped.

"Endos dni, mixed origins included" just feels kind of ableist to me. Oh, you utilized the same set of skills/mindset that one would use to memorize a skill or language to make a headmate/you have (a) headmate(s) that didn't originate from trauma? I don't care if you're otherwise traumagenic, don't talk to me! You must be PURELY TRAUMAGENIC to deserve my support!

[corinescorner]

Why did you include “created systems” with Endogenics. Those fakers aren’t part of our community.

I believe I already answered why I believe and accept created systems, but I will explain it again.

Created systems belong in the plural community. If they have successfully created a system, or tulpa, they should be accepted and cherished just like any other plural or system.

Just because you don't understand the skill, hard work, and mental strength it takes to do that, doesn't mean they're not real, or that they're faking. There's currently studies being conducted on created systems, tulpas, and endogenics. Which means these experiences have enough significance to warrant academic attention.

I may not understand it myself fully, but that doesn't mean I can't learn. Instead of shutting down their voices and dismissing them, I encourage you to reflect on why you're so quick to invalidate others. Growth comes from learning and understanding, not gatekeeping and ignorance.

[ratinacoat]

This is a question I wanted to ask you, since I saw a specific poll and another post and that made me wonder. What do you think about traumaendo systems with a CDD being in CDD-only spaces? There are some people who insist that they shouldn't be in those spaces, enough so that they tell those systems directly.

I think they should be allowed in CDD spaces, but that’s because of why most people I see use the traumaendo label. Those reasons for using it being: They have trauma but not enough to cause DID, they have DID but some of their alters formed without trauma, or they have a CDD but hold some sort of spiritual belief/believe in tulpamancy.

Starting plain and simple, if someone with a CDD holds a spiritual belief that’s okay. It doesn’t make their disorder fake just because they believe they share a body with a spirit/soul/person or something. That only becomes a problem if they start comparing their belief to the disorder, acting as though it’s a part of the disorder, or pushing it onto other people/forcing the belief onto others. Even if someone with a CDD believes in tulpamancy, a tulpa is entirely different from an alter. Alters are dissociated states, a tulpa is basically an imaginary friend turned sentient, according to that belief. Same goes for someone who thinks they share a body with a spirit/soul/person. That wouldn’t be a dissociative state, so it wouldn’t be an alter.

Moving on to the other two reasons, a lot of people seem to invalidate their experiences/trauma with this label. I always see people saying they’re traumaendo/mixed origin because their trauma wasn’t bad enough to cause DID. They were just neglected so it doesn’t count. Their parents weren’t abusive so it doesn’t count. The thing is though.. If the only reason you’re traumaendo is because your trauma “wasn’t bad enough”, you’re not traumaendo. You’re just traumagenic, as much as I don’t like using that term on CDD systems. You don’t need to go through horrific trauma to form DID. Everyone handles things differently. Trauma is the aftermath, not the event itself.  After someone develops DID trauma isn't the only thing needed to split either. Stress can cause splits. You don't have to know why you split to still have split. It doesn't make newer alters endogenic just because you don't know what caused them, they weren't caused by trauma, you "didn't go through enough" to split, etc. The brain doesn't create new dissociative barriers for no reason. Sometimes you don't remember the reason, sometimes the reason doesn't seem as bad as others. It doesn't make you traumaendo, that's just how your brain learned to handle distress.

So yes, I do think they should be allowed in CDD spaces. No one should be excluded from their own community for personal beliefs, labels, or having trouble accepting that what they went through was bad.

[starscatteredsky]

Can I get a tips and tricks post for jackalope or rabbitkin? I've been feeling very invalid lately

tips for a jackalope or rabbit!

pt: tips for a jackalope or rabbit!

make/commision a therian mask!

make/buy some other gear!

practice some hopping and walking quadrobics!

wear clothes the colour of your fur!

snack on some lettuce or other “rabbit food”!

make a little blanket and pillow den!

collect antlers or horns!

wear soft or fuzzy clothes

make some rabbit or jackalope friends

learn to voice act or mimic, jackalopes are known for mimicking human voices!

have a good day/night! -🩸

[image description:

a DNI banner with the background being the promotional image for Little Nightmares 2. The writing reads:

"DNI: radqueers, proshippers, radfems/TERFs, antikin/antitherian, homophobic/ ableist/ anti ACAB/ transphobic/ rasist/ antisemitic/ xenophobic/ antitheist/ anti athiest/ bigoted in any fashion, NSFW/sh/ed/cringe centered blog, fakeclaimer

Before you interact: We are pro mspec gays/lesbians, anti endo/tulpa "systems", enjoy MCYT/DSMP, pro self diagnoses with extensive research, multiple alters are punks/ anarchists"

end description]

[bloodonvalentine]

yappa yappa yappa your mouth is moving much like a rat's

Anti-Endos Don't Deserve a Safe Space!

Alright, if you saw this it in the tags, you can guess what I'm responding to.

Anti-endos and neutrals need to learn that anti-endos are just bigots and bullies looking for an outgroup to dehumanize and send hate to. They don't care about science. They don't care if anything they say is true. They only care about hurting people for being different!

Since when is Tibetan Buddhism a closed culture? Let alone a "VERY" closed culture?

In reality, Tibetan Buddhism is an open religion and a proselytizing on that encourages people around the globe to join! And the Dalai Lama, the highest spiritual authority in Tibetan Buddhism, has even encouraged Christians and the West to use Tibetan Buddhist meditations.

“Many Christians tell me they believe in Buddhist meditation, which can be learned by Christians. We teach right attitude. We teach meditation, which can be quite deep. These would be things that the West can take, and I think it is clear that Buddhists should practice certain Western methods, too.”

These are the words of the religions' highest authority figure!

Stop trying to declare the Tibetan Buddhist religion closed just so you can use them as a talking point to spread hate!!!

Since this is invading inclusive and pro-endo tags, as always, my response is going into anti-endo tags. If anyone takes issue with this, please hold your own community accountable for invading our spaces and take it up with @the-helside-sys.

I don't believe anti-endos deserve a safe space to spread hate but I'm willing to allot them one so long as they aren't breaching into inclusive and pro-endo spaces and aren't tagging hate posts like this:

But I'm actually not done yet!

I want to respond to another one of their posts!

First, this isn't true. A scientific theory has to be testable, and has to be tested and supported by evidence. But it's not necessarily "generally accepted as truth."

And with soft sciences, what constitutes a theory can be a bit questionable. See many of Freud's psychoanalytical theories.

This isn't really relevant. It's just an important point I want to bring up for people putting too much stock into psychological theories as if they're accepted facts.

Structural dissociation is meant to cover a very specific form of multiplicity.

Endogenic systems aren't ignoring the theory of structural dissociation because the theory of structural dissociation does NOT support anti-endo claims.

The author of the theory have stated that it may be possible for self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality to exist through other means, citing hypnosis and mediumship as examples:

The theory of structural dissociation's own creators are, at worst, neutral on endogenic systems acknowledging that trauma may not be the only way for self-conscious "dissociative parts" to form.

And you will not find a single paper saying the only way to be plural is through trauma. It doesn't exist!

Anti-endo views are not backed or supported by science or experts in any way!

...

Now, back to the title... Like I said... anti-endos don't deserve a safe space. But this isn't about what anyone deserves to me. It's about escalation.

I'm willing to let anti-endos keep to their bigotry in their own spaces for the time being so long as they behave and keep it there.

But continuing to post hate in our tags is unacceptable. Currently, I avoid posting in anti-endo tags to keep the peace except for posts like this. And even in posts like this, I don't post in DID or OSDD tags out of respect even when discussing those topics.

But it's certainly something I could do. Were anti-endos to continue to erode boundaries between spaces and encourage their followers to invade inclusive and pro-endo tags, I would have no problem appropriately tagging my posts that are about DID with "#DID" and similar tags. It wouldn't be against the rules of the site because my posts are about the topic I tag it with. And why maintain a boundary if it's only going to be respected by one side?

So to people who feel it's important to maintain separation between communities... I'd highly advise you do better at policing your own community's crosstagging so that we can all maintain our safe spaces, whether you feel we deserve to or not. Thank you! 😊

(This applies to both the explicitly endogenic and pro endo tags, as well as the plural and plurality tags given that "plural" was a term coined by non-disordered systems and is inherently inclusive.)

[bloodonvalentine]

real punks aren't ableist fakers

[hedgehogkiss]

No, because I'm looking in the endogenic / tulpa / tulpagenic tag to find posts for my friend (he's going to create a system) and there's ALWAYS an anti endo being annoying on OUR tags, why are you posting on #tulpas if you're going to invalidate tulpas ???

[polyfrag-kero]

why are you so heavily against endogenic systems? /genq (using endogenic as a catch-all for any non-traumagenic system, DID as a catch-all for DID/OSDD/PDID/etc) endogenic systems don't (or almost never) try to claim they have DID, alters/being a system is one of the symptoms of DID. there's many many articles on how plurality can form without DID, and that yes, trauma is needed for DID to form. but endos don't have that.

just generally wondering what your reasoning is + why you seem so hostile about it ("endos fuck off" seeming highly hostile) (not trying to come off as rude, attacking, etc etc, just genuinely trying to understand.)

(TW for grooming, manipulation)

first off, thanks for genuinely asking and not attacking. and honestly, we mainly don't like endos since we were groomed by so many when we were just starting to begin discovering our system again. we were told our trauma "wasn't enough" to be DID (even though we had been diagnosed with it), and that we had to be a tulpa system instead. as a result, we denied all our trauma, even the stuff we were actively going through, and it did so much damage to us. many of the endos around us were also very anti-recovery; they didn't believe the trauma was bad enough, so they encouraged spiritual shit instead of therapy and healing. multiple endos even tried to purposefully make us split a sexual alter so they could sleep with us one day

when we did finally realize that, yes, the trauma was bad enough, and that, yes, the DID diagnosis was correct, and that endos were just harming our mental health, we were basically shunned from the system spaces we were in. i personally don't remember much from this time, but i remember that once we started saying we didn't want to interact with endos for our own mental health, we were sent threats and called ableist and slurs and other shit. we weren't even considered "anti endo" at the time, we were just trying to separate ourselves from these people that were causing us harm

this isnt the only horrible experience we had with endos, but some of the other stuff gets a bit personal. but basically, endos did more harm than good to us, and we don't want to associate with them as a result

we're not the only system that's had horrible experiences with endos. they're notorious for sending threats to anti endos, calling them horrible names, etc. we don't support harassment. endos have also told trauma victims that their trauma "wasn't enough" to be DID, and they had to be endo, completely invalidating what that person has gone through and possibly putting them in danger of being re-traumatized/abused again. personally, we didn't even realize we were actively being abused since endos downplayed everything we talked about

so yeah, it's mainly personal to us, but we have a lot of reasons for not supporting endos. we don't interact with their stuff (never on purpose), so we don't want them interacting with our stuff. that's it

- 🐀

[sophieinwonderland]

"There's no scientific backing for endogenic systems and tulpas" says the Lemur Therian

I'm sorry, I didn't realize Mr. Lemur that you needed scientific evidence to support people's identities and experiences.

So um, just for the rest of the class, @that-lemur, can you show us the proof that you are, in fact, a lemur internally?

Because without scientific backing, I just don't know why anyone should believe you, by your standards... 🤷‍♀️

Oh wait.

When it's your identity, your position is...

Got it!

Anyway, reminder that the Alterhuman community is inclusive. It has always been inclusive since the term was coined, including plural and walk-in identities. (Walk-ins generally referring to a type of spiritual headmate who walk in to a system.)

So yeah, if you're routinely posting in inclusive spaces, people will probably assume you're inclusive and safe to interact with.

Now, I find it pretty ridiculous that someone in the alterhuman community is using a lack of scientific basis to argue someone's identity is invalid.

But I also need to say that this factually incorrect!

Practically every source, including dissociative experts, have confirmed that endogenic and non-disordered plurality exists or at least may be possible. Anti-endos have yet to produce even a single doctor who has said otherwise.

And more recently, there was an AMA with psychiatrists researching tulpas in an fMRI study for Stanford University. One of their big findings was changes in the brains of tulpa systems during possession of limbs.

This is actual, neurological data.

Beyond that, here's a big document of other research and studies related to endogenic systems.

I could go all day with pro-endo sources. But here's the bigger thing you need to understand.

Bigotry like this has no place in the alterhuman community. Because if you decide that someone's identity isn't valid because they don't have "scientific backing," others will see that as permission to say the same about you.

The system medicalist ideology of requiring scientific validation is harmful to all alterhumans, not just endogenic systems.

[clover-cdd-confessions]

Here's a link, by the way. The document is current, the post itself isn't.

https://www.tumblr.com/guardianssystem/732772365744979968/tumblr-post-of-our-endogenic-and-non-traumagenic?source=share

Actually look at the links instead of complaining about it being a Tumblr post. There was even a study done by professionals on reddit regarding tulpas.

Real professionals, by the way. And Dr. Jamie Marich supports other causes of plurality besides trauma. You can make a space for CDDs without invalidating other types of plurality. Again, plural includes ALL systems not just traumagenic ones so if you say endos dni, please stop using plural tags.

I've read the document multiple times. I don't remember the specifics, but I know that each time I read it, I remember why I wasn't convinced by it.

Send me the specific notes/studies that prove systems can form from things other than trauma, but I'm not willing to expend the emotional energy to reread this entire thing seeing as I already have, and I have too much brainfog to spend my spoons on reading the entire document again. For the last time, don't just send a study ABOUT them, send me one that actually proves they're real. It's easier for me to look at things when you have something more specific that you're referring to.

Only engaging with the study part of this. Do not debate me on systems using plural terms. The only systems are traumagenic ones, sooo...your issue with me using "plural" is moot.

[skullytrickybonez]

Everyone i am very sorry and apologize about the mistake that i make on Bluesky and being an ableist and i know what i did is wrong because

Endogenic plurality is a term used to describe non-traumagenic plurality, which refers to the state of having more than one identity within a single body in a way that is not caused by traumatic experiences. This contrasts with traumagenic plurality, such as that seen in dissociative identity disorder (DID), which is typically linked to trauma. The term "endogenic" comes from the prefix "endo-" meaning "internal/within," combined with the suffix "-genic" meaning "produced or caused by." The label was coined by The Lunastus Collective as an alternative to using the word "multiplicity" to describe such experiences. Initially, it was defined as multiplicity with no known cause but not since birth; however, the definition has since expanded to serve as an umbrella term within the community.

"Endogenic" in the context of plurality refers to a system in which mean's the members did not form as a result of trauma or where the formation is not primarily trauma-based. When used in its plural form, "Endogenic" encompasses a range of experiences within plural systems. Here are key points related to the term "Endogenic (plural)":

Non-Traumagenic Origins: Endogenic systems are characterized by the presence of multiple identities or selves that are not the result of traumatic experiences. This distinguishes them from traumagenic systems, where the plurality is directly linked to trauma. The term "Endogenic" is used to describe plural systems that formed without the presence of trauma as a primary factor. This means that the plurality within the system did not arise as a response to traumatic experiences.

Lack of Scientific Backing: Currently, endogenic systems lack scientific validation. The predominant explanation for complex dissociative disorders is the Structural Dissociation Theory, which focuses on trauma as the root cause. Because endogenic systems are not based on trauma, they remain outside the scope of this theory and have not been extensively studied or supported by scientific research. However, there has been studies on non-disordered plurality in general[1].

Types of Endogenic Systems: Several specific types of systems may identify as endogenic, including:

Natural Systems: Systems that naturally occur without a known external cause.

Tulpa Systems: Systems involving tulpas, which are sentient beings created through mental focus and meditation.

Soulbond Systems: Systems that include soulbonds, or deep connections to fictional characters or entities.

Gateway Systems: Systems that act as a gateway to other realities or realms, allowing different identities to come through.

Debate and Controversy: The existence and validity of endogenic systems are highly debated within the community of complex dissociative disorders (CDD). Some argue that the idea of systems appearing without trauma undermines the legitimacy of traumagenic systems and can lead to the invalidation or "fake-claiming" of those who have experienced trauma. Others believe that endogenic systems may simply have trauma that is not remembered, or that they may be experiencing other psychological phenomena such as delusional or dissociative disorders. And i promise that I'll never ever do that again and i will not make mistakes ever again and i will own up to my mistakes and moving on. And to all Endo's please do not interact with my account's ever.