#tim drake's kill count

[cosmic-dust-poltergeist]

Idk, just a thought.

Bruce: WE DON'T KILL PEOPLE, JASON

Dick: Pfft okay

Bruce: What do you mean by that?

Dick: Just saying, for a family that "doesn't kill", we have a pretty high kill count

Jason: Whaaaa?

Dick: Yeah, all things considered, Cass has the lowest count. You'd know this if you talked to us

Bruce: Dick, what are you talking about?

Jason: Wait! Replacement has a kill count???

Dick: He holds the record for most kills currently

Bruce and Jason: WHAT?

Dick, a little too proud: He's going to be so scary when he embraces being a supervillain

Tim, appearing with a pout: Still not a supervillain. Stop saying that.

Dick, beaming: No

Jason: wait, wait, wait, how does he-?? When-?? But I'm a crimelord and Demon Brat was an assassin???? Just how many have you killed???

Tim, ignoring Bruce having a mental breakdown: I lost count after I blow up all of Ra's bases. But a couple thousand?

Jason, shocked: For real?

Dick: See! Baby supervillain!

Tim: I'm not a baby anything, asshole. I'm 19!

Jason: Damn, baby bird. Wait! Does this mean Bruce and you (Dick) have kills counts?

Dick, shrugs: Yeah, Slade still tries to recruit me occasionally because of it.

Tim: Yeah, and Bruce likes to pretend he doesn't, but he does. If we want to add all the people he put in states worse than death while you were dead, who later killed themselves because of it, it's an even bigger list.

Dick, guiltily frowns: I'm not sure I want to add those. My list would get a hell of a lot longer too.

Tim, shrugs: Not all kills are to be proud of.

Jason, flabbergasted: I think I need to process this... my life is a lie

Tim: Talk to Alfred, it'll help

Jason, gestures to the despairing Bruce: What about him?

Dick: We've actually discussed this several times in front of him before, if we set him up at the bat computer, the med bay, or in his room, he pretends the whole conversation was a hallucination or something

Jason: Seriously?

Tim, nodding: Damian is so salty about it

Dick, strong arming Bruce to the bat computer and opening Bruce's latest case: Dami'll understand eventually.

Jason: Man, I need to hang out with you fuckers more often

Dick: I've been telling you!

Tim: There's a lot you don't know that we won't be discussing here, come to my safe house in southend on Thursday. We're having a sibling hangout at 4pm

[arrowheadedbitch]

Barbara: Okay, I have made an infallible algorithm that will settle this debate of who has the highest kill count once and for all so you guys can stop arguing all the time.

Jason: It's definitely gonna be me

Damian: No, it shall be me!

Tim:

Tim: I hope it's not me.

Narrator: It was him.

[thebat-musicman]

AU where Jason was dead for 2 years longer than he was in canon

Leslie: The results are back. Jason, you’re physically two years younger than you should be.

Jason: You mean…

Tim, jumping out of his chair: YES!!!

Leslie: I’m sorry, Jason. Tim is physically older than you now.

Tim: THIS IS THE BEST DAY OF MY LIFE!!!!

Jason: This cannot be happening.

Tim, hugging him: Don’t worry, Jason. I’ll be the best big brother ever.

Jason, haunted: I’m going to ask the Joker to try again.

[erinwantstowrite]

What do you think about Jason and Tim relationship? I know that fans are split between hatred for each other or the best brothers. But what do you think?

i fully believe that the writers dropped the ball on what to do with them.

i disagree with what they did with Jason coming back- they didn't have any direction for his character besides that they wanted a huge dramatic twist and Jason has stagnated because of it. him coming back as pretty much nothing like himself but then having zero good writing to convince me of his tragedy?? it's why a lot of people just ignore canon. if they were gonna bring him back, they should have gone in another direction.

if i HAD to keep jason as an anti hero, i would have written him to have a compulsion to protect Robin. a deep rooted fear where he projects his own time, experience, and feelings as Robin onto Tim (and even Stephanie!!) because of the damage that was done to him mentally. jason had long lasting brain damage. he was in a coma for months after he was suddenly revived, he was catatonic when Talia was taking care of him. the Lazarus pit might have healed that, but there would still be residual affects. Jason would feel younger than he is, he'd feel like a stranger in his own body. add on to that with severe cpstd, and you have a recipe for a kid (he was what, 18? 19? physically? when he got to Gotham?) who has a warped perception of his life and relationships. he would have memories that were forgotten to him, not just in his recovery stage but in the time before he died. he would have the feelings of a kid who wanted his dad to save him, who was angry at his mom for hurting him, who now has to struggle with why he ever came back at all. i'm sure he would be angry at everyone. he'd be confused and hurt and he wouldn't have a means to understanding his own feelings. but at his heart, jason was always a good kid, and he protected people, especially people who couldn't protect themselves

it makes no sense that jason came back wanting to hurt robin

so yeah, i'd have written him to be angry and volatile like a teen lashing out at a safe parent to be angry with, but when Tim or Steph were there, he'd dial it back immediately. at first it would be about not wanting to scare them, wanting to keep them safe as a way to help the kid that did die in that costume, somehow and someway. but eventually it would be about Jason seeing them, seeing how capable they are, and feeling protective over them, not just Robin.

but that isn't what happened, because the writers couldn't care less about how trauma actually effects people. they had him attack tim and become basically a sociopath and it felt like a cheap "gotcha!" twist that no one asked for

that being said, their canon relationship isn't terrible. in the beginning they didn't get along at all, obviously. but now, they have a respect for each other. they act like siblings. Tim has said multiple times that he doesn't hate Jason nor holds a grudge. Jason said that he should, but Tim didn't care. sometimes when I read them, I think about how well they might have gotten along if Jason never died. because let's be real, Tim was always headed for the Batfam with or without Jason's death. that's why fics where he's adopted earlier and Jason doesn't die are pretty popular. though in my opinion, they often overshadow that Dick and Tim are also brothers

i think they have a complicated history and relationship but they are siblings. they aren't texting each other everything (Dick and Tim, i fear) or having emotional conversations more than once every seven months but they'll play video games with each other, drop by unannounced to the other's house to eat their food and complain about something, and they work together well. they have a lot in common and they're both previously only children who became second children and eventually middle children. they both experienced neglect though it was very different versions.

in one universe where Tim had died, Jason mourned him. i think that says a lot about how they care about each other

if only the writers would let it STAY that way and not have Jason regress over and over just because they're terrified of character development

[secrettreestuffidk]

enough "Tim gets visited by his supervillain future-self" I want to see "Tim goes back in time and has to deal with his younger-self calling him a supervillain"

[pidgeony]

what genuinely drives me ever-so-slightly insane every time i see people being like "why doesn't x batfam character kill, that's so hypocritical/ selfish/ whatever reason of them" is when did we ever need a reason *not* to kill??

everyone is justified in not killing. yes, some characters (bruce and cass for example) have very clear reasons (parents died in front of him, killed a man and saw what he felt), and some are less fleshed out or seemingly don't have a reason at all, but that doesn't mean that they are like, obligated to kill (or like/ forgive characters who kill)??? is this not obvious????

they chose this. they are vigilantes held by their own standards and codes and they choose not to kill. they've seen terrible things, tragedy befalls their everyday lives and they wake up and decide: no, life is precious, no, i am going to save lives, not end them, no, i will not be judge, jury, and executioner. if that's not important and significant about the batfam (excluding jason for obv reasons) then i don't know what is.

no, you don't have to agree with their code, but please for the love of all that's holy stop acting like bruce wayne is the worst man to grace the planet because he won't murder criminals or twist tim/ dick/ cass/ anyone basically into some morally gray anti-hero because you don't like their no-kill moral code.

[puppetmaster13u]

Prompt 88

  In a world where every human starts with blood that’s a very bright red, only darkening by one taking another’s life, Tim is very careful. Apparently even using explosions in warehouses and wherever else the league of assassins had set up counted as killing, to his slight horror. He couldn’t let his team know of course, even if they joked about joining him if he turned villain. 

  It was one thing to joke, but if they saw his blood, pitch black and dark enough to nearly swallow the light around it? He really doesn’t want to see the horror or disgust. He isn’t going to let anyone know if he can help it. 

  So it’s a really shitty situation when one of the henchmen of one of the rogues decides to break his nose and about fifty-something people are suddenly very aware of his very high kill count. He has a choice here. And he isn’t entirely sure if he wants to deal with the consequences of either of them. 

[were-wolverine]

guys. GUYS. tim has not canonically killed anyone. when he blew up those LoA bases, nobody died. tim drake has never canonically killed someone.

if he had, it would take away from his character! it would trivialize his complicated morals and take away from his desire to do good! and honestly, it would make him less interesting!

if you want a batkid that kills people, jason is right there. tim can be morally grey without killing, and it makes him a much more compelling character!

this is not to say that jason isn’t an interesting or compelling character, he is! it’s just that tim doesn’t have the reasons jason does for killing, among other things

plus, just because he won’t kill doesn’t mean he hasn’t thought about it or wanted to (re: the people that killed his close friends/family)

[maglarks]

I made a graph about batfam crashouts

Bruce does all of the above simultaneously

(my apple pencil died so i had to write w my finger mb guys)

[arrowheadedbitch]

I wanna see something were Tim keeps finding worse and worse excuses to commit atrocities. Like at first it's like, "I must kill this man, it is my only option for survival " and then by the end he's like,

Well, Batman didn't make the Geneva convention....

There's 80s music playing! I can't not go on a murder rampage! It'd ruin a perfect gag!

I can't let perfectly good hard drugs go to waste in an evidence locker!

And it just keeps getting more and more unhinged until Batman finally finds out and he has NO IDEA what to do about it

[ravenpureforever]

Tim Drake Compendium 1 is truly unparalleled reading experience because we’ll have Batman #480 where Tim reflects on and grapples with his complicated, complex relationship with father as he has changed in ways his father can never understand and he both loves his father and resents him a little as he is torn between child and caretaker while also having a vigilante double life that is about to get a lot more messy for him.

And then the next 2 issues he’s teaming up with Jimmy Olsen and Superman to fight vampires in Metropolis.

The tonal whiplash is one of the fucking funniest I’ve ever seen with one of the most unhinged stories I’ve read so far. Absolutely bonkers.

[ghost-bxrd]

Prompt:

Medieval Dragon Rider Au!

Jason is presumed dead after an assassination attempt on the king goes awry, leaving the young prince’s chambers a burnt a ruin.

The only thing that survives the fire is the prince’s dragon egg, passed on to the king’s newest charge, Tim Drake, after a mourning period. To the surprise of everyone, the egg hatches shortly after. “A sign of the dead prince’s approval”, it is declared.

But when Jason returns to attack Tim in revenge for taking his place, it’s on the back of one of the largest dragons the realm has ever seen.

And Tim’s dragon has only just become big enough to saddle a rider two months ago.

[pipliekit]

I know canonically Tim doesn't have a kill count (but seriously he keeps blowing up assassins so I'm not so sure about that one buddy).

However I keep thinking about a scenario where Tim gets time traveled back into the past, like full timeline wipe. He obviously goes back to vigilantism because he just can't stop at this point.

Having to retrain again sucks but on the plus side he is missing a buuuunch of ongoing physical issues from old wounds and he's basically got a fresh start to all of it.

Except he gets hit with a spell that reveals your kill count. And thirteen year old, barely a vigilante, still an unknown to the bats, Timothy Drake has a ridiculous number. Truly concerning.

And Tim is pissed, not just because that's private info but also because those people aren't even dead anymore??? What the fuck???? Surely it doesn't count if they haven't died in the first place???????

[nana-mizu-shiki]

Like the little shit he is, he continues to lay little breadcrumbs of life changing realizations at his brothers' feet.

"I don't know if those of the Batman and Nightwing fics are worse."

[necrotic-nephilim]

Hello! New to comics and I don't really feel like the New-52 comics are for me and would really like to read and understand Pre-flashpoint and all the dark and good stuff there. Is there an order or starting point you would recommend? Thanks for your time, and I hope you have a great day!

hi! i'm so glad you want to get into comics! i'd love to help with some recs! since you're here, i'm going to assume you're a Batfamily fan and most of my recs will cater to that, but i will try to encompass a bit of everything to help you just understand some big moments and all this mess that is DC canon. adding a cut bc jesus this got long.

so your starting point for pre-Flashpoint is going to be Crisis on Infinite Earths. the TLDR of this event is: DC had a big multiverse in the 70s and early 80s that wasn't friendly to new readers. to try to push their titles more and become a proper competitor to Marvel, they created an in-universe storyline that nuked the multiverse and gave a solid entry point for new fans going forward. this is why you hear terms like Pre-Crisis and Post-Crisis. it refers to the comics canon before and after this event, in 1985. some characters had some big changes (for example: pre-Crisis Jason Todd was a circus kid whose parents were killed by Killer Croc) but most remained largely the same, just simplified. you don't *have* to start with Crisis on Infinite Earths if you don't want to. it's a *good* storyline, but it's a big one and a lot of big multiverse-scale stuff happens. so as long as you understand it as "big event that nuked DC's multiverse and gave the world a clean slate in 1985", then you've basically got the gist. also Barry Allen dies during it, but he comes back so don't worry about it.

in general, if DC has some big timeline/canon-altering event, they're going to call it a Crisis Event. the only Crisis Events that will matter to you, trying to get into pre-Flashpoint are

Crisis On Infinite Earths - the above, starts the Post-Crisis/pre-Flashpoint timeline

Zero Hour: Crisis In Time - an event in the 90s that sought to fix some of the kinks that the above Crisis caused, like fixing the origins of the Legion of Superheroes and other Golden/Silver Age characters, not *super* important tbh

Infinite Crisis - this was a big event that brought back some characters who got nuked by Crisis on Infinite Earths, unfucked Power Girl's backstory, and set the groundwork to bring back the multiverse. if you've heard "Superboy Prime punched a hole in reality and it brought back Jason Todd" yeah, this is the story where it happened

Final Crisis - a big event that was partly meta commentary but heroes fought Darkseid, Batman died for a hot second, it was all a big deal about evil winning and all that

Flashpoint - the event that nuked this timeline, a big storyline to do with Flash and the timeline that would result in the New-52 in 2011

are you confused yet? good embrace the confusion it's going to become second nature of a comic fan. you don't need to read these events as a beginner. you really don't i promise. they'll sound big and important, but besides Crisis On Infinite Earths and Flashpoint, the start and end of this era, the rest you can just kind of breeze by so long as you understand the big plot points like Batman dying or Superboy Prime punching reality. unless you really care about a character central to these stories, skip 'em for now.

now for any character, if they have a Year One comic? that is a very safe bet as a place to start. it is what it sounds like. Batman: Year One is going to be Bruce's first year as Batman. same as Green Arrow: Year One, Batgirl: Year One, etc. when in doubt, if there's a Year One, start with Year One. (note: for Superman, his "year one" type story is called Superman: Birthright and it is worth reading if you like Superman)

for Batman, i am holding you by the shoulders when i say this: people will tell you to read The Killing Joke. they're liars. do not listen to them. it's a bad story. you don't need it. do not let the Joker fanboys lie to you. people will also say Dark Knight Returns. don't listen to *them* either. i *like* DKR, i talk about it a lot here. it's not a good intro to Batman. it's an AU story, it's not canon, ignore it for now.

now where you *should* start with Batman, imo, is as followed

Batman: Year One - as said above, Year Ones are good, this is solid to start with

Batman: The Long Halloween - this is an iconic story and it's a followup to year One

Batman: Dark Legacy - the followup to Long Halloween, also a very good story

Batman: Hush - this story is a solid starter if you want to understand the general vibe of Gotham, the typical characters you see in the Batfamily, and a good Batman villain

once you've got the basics down, you *can* get into the big boy storylines like Batman: Knightfall and Batman: No Man's Land, but don't worry about those right now. they're long and complicated and shouldn't really be your starting point no matter how good they are.

other very good pre-Flashpoint comics that are easy to pick up and iconic storylines

Death of Superman - this is a long arc in the Superman run that if you collect in trades, goes Death of Superman, Funeral For A Friend, Reign of the Supermen, Return of Superman, Doomsday. it's long, but a very iconic storyline

Wonder Woman by George Perez - this the run that helped define modern Wonder Woman within the pre-Flashpoint era

JLA: Year One - if you want a good Justice League story where you get characters besides Batman, Wonder Woman, and Superman taking the shine, this is a great place to start

Green Arrow by Mike Grell - start with Green Arrow: The Longbow Hunters and then go into Green Arrow (1988). this has the darker, very 80s vibes that gets a bit gritty and very realistic with the issues it faces bc Green Arrow comics tend to be more rooted

The New Teen Titans by Marv Wolfman - this technically starts before pre-Flashpoint, don't worry about it it's fine. a good run for all of these characters, can get a little confusing, it is okay to be confused do not be afraid to google shit

so, some big stories out of the way i'm just. honestly going to run down the line of the major pre-Flashpoint Batfamily members and give you comic recs for them that you can start with. (besides Bruce obviously, bc well. see above)

Dick Grayson

NIghtwing: Year One

Robin: Year One

Nightwing (1995)

Tim Drake

Batman: A Lonely Place of Dying

Robin (1990)

Robin II: Joker's Wild

Robin III: Cry of the Huntress

Robin (1993)

Barbara Gordon

Batgirl: Year One

Birds of Prey (1999)

Jason Todd

Batman: The Cult (as Robin)

Batman: Death in the Family (as Robin)

Batman: Under The Red Hood

Red Hood: Lost Days

Cassandra Cain

Batgirl (2000)

Batman: No Man's Land

Jean-Paul Valley

Batman: Sword of Azrael

Batman: Knightfall

Stephanie Brown

Huntress/Spoiler: Blunt Trauma

Batgirl (2009)

Selina Kyle

Catwoman by Ed Brubaker

Helena Bertinelli

Batman/Huntress: Cry For Blood

Huntress: Year One

Birds of Prey: Manhunt

Damian Wayne

Batman & Robin (2009)

there are other very important pre-Flashpoint stories for all of these characters, but these are starting points more than anything. figure out what characters you're interested and go from there. understanding the universe at large helps, do not get me wrong. but at the end of the day, comics are a choose your own adventure of who you want to give a shit about. you're *never* going to read everything "important" and you're probably not going to understand everything. that's okay. don't treat it like a media you need to "complete" like a tv show or a movie, but more like an open world game where you decide what characters/teams/stories you like the most.

pre-Flashpoint covers a lot of ground. some stuff will be darker and grittier, some stuff will be more light-hearted. it will all be about what titles you pick up and what characters you decide you want to read about. you're obviously going to get a much more grounded storyline out of Green Arrow than you are say, a JLA comic. i prefer the more grounded, "street level" sorts of characters. (if you like gritty detective stories, i will be biased and highly recommend the Question (1987) just because. i love him okay.) but you might find you like sometimes more worldly and big scale. at the end of the day: don't force yourself to love a comic you're not enjoying, even if you like that character. you can put that shit down. sometimes, "important stories" are by shitty writers that you won't enjoy reading and you shouldn't make this hobby a chore. i don't care how "critically acclaimed" it is, you don't have to like it if it doesn't click for you. and on the flipside, a comic might be considered "bad" but you may enjoy it (a personal example: Robin III: Cry of the Huntress is considered a very weak comic. don't care. i love it anyway.) accept the cringe, have fun, and enjoy yourself at the end of the day. none of it will make sense anyway so just read what sounds cool to you.

this was all over the place and rambly, but i hope it helps at least a little! welcome to comics anon! if you or anyone else would like more character-specific recs, feel free to ask! if i don't know, i can at the very least hopefully point you in the right direction <3

[based-bobcat]

Remember when Headcanon used to mean 'Stuff I think could happen or could have happened off-screen that stays in the spirit of the narrative' and not 'making shit up so these two characters act out shitty coffeeshop AU scenarios'