#this is about the experience of plurality itself after all

[kyofsonder]

We don't often make up-front posts about our system or the people in it, but we have a sudden desire to say this into the Tumblr void and no good arguments against doing so.

Having your speaking and/or thinking accent suddenly shift at a random moment for no apparent reason is a hell of a specific experience, isn't it? Suddenly, your mouth just wants to take a different shape and your words comes out in a different way and it's not even necessarily an accent you're regularly exposed to or have a reason to mirror or want to practice. It's just there, all of the sudden, and you ride it out until you either feel it fade or have to mask it around others. It's. A hell of a thing, is all we can think to say.

We're always co-con to some degree, too, so we'll feel the ebb and flow of it as the accent-holder is closer to and further from our shared consciousness. It'll warp our accent into something between our usual/default one and whatever the accent-holder has.

Maybe we've posted about this before and forgotten, but it's weird and fascinating to us every time. Speaking patterns changing is already both those things, but whole accent shifts are... another level.

Being plural is wild, truly. We'll probably never stop being surprised, even by aspects/experiences of it we've known a thousand times over.

[syscest]

Hope you don't mind more "but am I plural" asks, but....

I feel like, I *do* want to be plural, but. Idk, I don't feel anything? Like, I think it sounds so neat to have other people in here with me, but.... I look inward, and I really don't feel anyone else here

I sometimes wish I could just, make myself plural? But it feels, disingenuous somehow. Disrespectful. And I wouldn't really know how to go about it anyway....

Look we're not gonna sit here and be like "go do tulpamancy" or do pop therapy on what's got you feeling that way or something something - but we can talk about a personal experience.

Half a decade ago, we were both a singlet and also desperate to jam ourselves into some kind of romantic polyamorous queer commune (hilarious as a loud aro I know). The experience was pretty suffocating, we didn't always really understand why we felt that way, and we made a lot of dumb decisions as a result.

Soon after we realised we were a system, we also realised that that desperation had gone away? And the funny thing about that is, years prior to this, we'd kind of internally ruled out being plural? Plurality was something we'd seen in other people - dramatic switches and isolated memory. People we liked, but experiences we knew we did not have. Because we knew we weren't plural, we couldn't want it either.

So we always wonder if the unhinged sense of romance we had for purely a brief period of our life - that presented itself almost exclusively as a desire to be permanently surrounded by people we were close with and felt safe around - was in some ways, along with general (less ravenous) desire for good relationships, a desire for our own eventual systemhood?

We can't know, obviously - but I think that adage that strong desires have to come from somewhere rings true. Is it possible to want to be plural when you do not, on some level, have plural experiences waiting to be embraced somehow? At first I want to say no, because it's just no fun to deny someone a desire to conceptualise themselves in a certain way. But then I think - wasn't it possible for us to want to be surrounded in romantic relationships so so badly when we did not, in retrospect, possess a genuine desire for romance as we now understand it?

Wanting to be plural is definitely a symptom of being plural, but also god sometimes we as people are completely wrong in ways that we do not at all understand. Just do your best for yourself.

[interstellarsystem]

psychologists have confirmed multiple times that you can only have DID / OSDD / be a system WITH TRAUMA so being neutral or pro on the subject means you are okay with people faking a serious disorder interacting with your content and you are okay with people taking away resources for people who genuinely need the help.

https://psychcentral.com/disorders/dissociative-identity-disorder/dissociative-identity-disorder-causes#what-is-it

hope this helps.

Look, we don't normally answer anon hate but we've been meaning to post about this anyway. So your ask is going to be my podium for a moment.

Firstly, we're literally diagnosed, so if you're hoping to change our mind and send us packing our bags because we're "hurting real systems", you're literally only going to make us laugh. Diagnosis isn't a factor in someone's reality, sure, but... We're literally professionally diagnosed. You, anon, can't change that, no matter what you think of us being quoigenic. So I'm not even sure why you're here or what you hope to achieve.

Anyway.

"Psychologists have confirmed multiple times that you can only have DID / OSDD / be a system WITH TRAUMA"

I'd like to see these "multiple times" psychologists have confirmed that you CAN ONLY have DID/OSDD/be a system with trauma. In fact, the one source you linked? It says "is usually associated with adverse experiences and traumatic memories". Usually being they key word here.

Do they go into the reasoning behind traumagenic plurality after that? Yes. But they specified usually in the beginning. That's not "occurs only from". It's not "is usually caused by". It's "is usually associated with".

That quick nitpick aside!

Endogenics do not have to have DID, and many don't claim to have it. Being disordered (aka, having symptoms that fit the criteria for a disorder or are disordered in general) and being endogenic (aka having a system origin not based in trauma) are separate things. Origin is a self-defined trait! It's something you label yourself/selves with, based on what you know/feel about the beginning of your system. Being disordered, aka having DID/OSDD/Other CDDs is a separate thing entirely. Those are medical conditions. They're conditions with a symptom that is being plural, sure! But they have so many other symptoms that define them--which you need to fill a certain number of to qualify for a diagnosis.

A lot of endogenics are nondisordered. They don't claim to have any sort of CDD, because they simply don't! They usually don't experience disordered symptoms, they don't experience the levels of dissociation tied with CDDs, they don't claim to have any (or many) other symptoms associated with CDDs. You know why? Because they're literally nondisordered. They aren't claiming to have DID, because they just... don't fit the symptoms for it, and they know that. They're plural--which is a symptom of DID, sure! But saying they claim to have DID based on being multiple alone is like claiming that everyone who says they cough is claiming to have asthma. Plurality, in medicalised terms, is a single symptom (though we'd prefer not to define it that way, for the sake of this post I'm medicalising it) of some CDDs--it's not the whole thing itself.

In short, nondisordered endogenics don't claim to have DID. At all.

"But you say you have quoigenic DID, and you advocate for people with endogenic DID! So endos do claim to have DID!" Note: Not in the original ask, just a predicted response.

Yes, we do. Because regardless of your origin, you can still have disordered symptoms. Origin, in our personal opinion, only defines the start of your journey as plural, and is almost entirely useless otherwise. It doesn't define anything about your functioning, or your structure, or life experiences. It's just the starting point of your system. An endogenic system who fits all the diagnostic criteria for DID still has DID--regardless of their origin. DID is about the symptoms, as any other disorder is. If you match the symptoms? You should be able to access resources that you need to heal.

How does that work? Some systems could experience trauma that causes disordered symptoms later in life, after they were already plural. You could end up with disordered symptoms from other disorders that intertwine with your plurality. You could've made a tulpa as a kid and then started experiencing symptoms closer to DID as you got older. Some systems could just not care about labelling their origin based around trauma--they don't want it to define them. It doesn't matter in the end--once again, if someone experiences disordered symptoms, and matches the criteria? They have the disorder.

"Being neutral or pro on the subject means you are okay with people faking a serious disorder interacting with your content..."

Way to put words in our mouth? For the record, we don't care to try to hunt down "fakers" interacting with us. It's not worth the effort in the slightest. People will likely fake shit about themselves sometimes, and then they'll grow up. People we disagree with probably see our posts all the time. Who cares? Our blog is public, shit's bound to happen--we're an adult and we have a life that takes up enough energy for us to stop giving a shit about who's in our notes. We have a block button, we can use it if we need to. It's literally that simple.

That aside!

We see a lot of "endos are either faking or mistaken traumagenic systems" going around, so I'm going to include a bit of that topic in here too because they go hand in hand.

Genuinely, who cares what someone says their origin is? As we said earlier, endogenics don't claim to have DID/OSDD if they're nondisordered. So... There's clearly no disorder to even fake there? What would they gain out of pretending to be a nondisordered system aside from... Harrassment from people like you, anon? Doesn't seem like a fun pastime. If people want to fake being nondisordered and endogenic, honestly they're putting themselves more in harms way than they're actually harming others around them, most of the time.

As for disordered endogenic systems... Sure, you're of the opinion that CDDs can only come from trauma. You think they're wrong about their origin. But people with CDDs, regardless of what they beleive their origin is, still have CDDs. You can't decide their beliefs for them, or how disordered they are based on that. I'm sure some endogenics are "secretly traumagenic" and don't know about it. But does it really, actually matter what labels people use? If someone is struggling and experiencing disordered symptoms, why does it matter if they define their origin as something other than the commonly accepted explanation? Why should people have to always define themselves by their own suffering to be seen as "valid"?

Disordered endogenics are people who need help, they don't need to be harrassed online about what labels they use to describe their own lives. Even if it were true that every endogenic system was faking or was traumagenic but mistaken, the "fake systems" would eventually grow up and stop, and the "secret traumagenics" would still need help anyway, no matter what they call themselves. Calling them out and harrassing them over their personal choice of labels is stupid. They have the disorder you claim to protect. Why does it matter to you what they call themselves? Someone could say their origin is them sneezing so hard one time that it split their brain in two, we literally wouldn't care about that. If they're disordered, they deserve resources to help them. Anyone with a disability deserves access to help, regardless of if they're someone you personally agree with or not.

"...and you are okay with people taking away resources for people who genuinely need the help."

Putting words in my mouth again, but, anyway...

I'd like to extend to you, anon, if you care to respond--and any other person out there who wants to actually answer me--what resources are being taken away by endogenics here?

Is it DID specialists? Are nondisordered endogenics taking those? Why would they need access to medical care for DID if they're not experiencing DID? They wouldn't, usually. They might need help to manage internal system relationships, or they might need help for other mental or physical health issues--which.. Are absolutely valid reasons to seek medical help anyway. So why should they not see professionals if they have a reason to see them?

Are disordered endogenics taking them from you? I think the key word here is "disordered". They have a disorder. Why wouldn't they be able to see one? What is someone with DID taking away from... other people with DID?

If it's not DID specialists, what other resource is being taken? Self-help books and/or PDFs aren't limited or finite most of the time... Doctors and general psychologists can have the same logic as above applied to them... Support spaces are there for people who need them, so if endogenics need support from other systems then they deserve those spaces.... What else could endogenic systems possibly be taking from you?

Literally, we have never received an answer for this that makes sense. What are they taking away? And why do they not deserve it if they feel they require that resource? What is "resources" here?

[sophie-frm-mars]

I'm gonna plural discourse for a bit

There's a video that I saw that proposed changing the diagnosis of DID/OSDD to either Dissociative type PTSD or BPD with dissociative amnesia. I think this is not a wholly sensible suggestion and I get into why in the first half of The Mad & The Mentally Ill (text up on my patreon video out in a few months probably) but without getting into a deep critique of the diagnostic model itself I wanna talk about the merits and problems with that suggestion

So on the one hand, PTSD and BPD are already both dissociative in their lived experience. With PTSD you have both the dissociation of feeling like your trauma happened to someone else and the dissociation of feeling like you aren't where and when you really are when you're experiencing a flashback. BPD is dissociative in all its core mechanisms, and there is a sort of emotional "dissociative amnesia" at play when someone with BPD moves from one extreme emotional state to another, because they shift emotional reality so fast it can give them and people around them whiplash. This is a part of what gets people with BPD called manipulative - they change emotional states so fast people assume they must be faking how they're feeling to get what they want.

Therefore it makes some sense to some degree to say that someone whose dissociative identities are formed out of intense trauma has PTSD and that a system of alters that resemble different "personality states" of one core identity is BPD. Or at least it's a somewhat internally consistent model

On the other hand, the lived experience of plurality isn't like that and the best way to explain the difference is to say "it's like you are several different people". In other words I think that there's something potentially useful in this suggestion for helping plural people understand themselves but the suggestion itself is coming from a strictly singular perspective that wants to insist that the ontological nature of the self is singular and in reality the self is simply plural in all cases. "Singular self" people are radically different people who experience radically different thoughts and feelings at work, at home, with friends, with family, when stressed, when tired, when reminded of childhood. As Richard Schwartz says "parts work is for everyone" and I think this attempt to legislate plurality out of the DSM is philosophically an acknowledgement that in effect everyone is at least a little bit plural and an attempt to reconcile that by saying "therefore no one is" instead of opening up your conception of the self to a little more possibility than previously allowed.

Besides all of this, and now I am getting a bit into my critique of the diagnostic model, trauma works differently for different people, and for some people the minor traumas of simply being alive are enough to have profound psychological effects. In the plural community I've seen discussion of "endogenic systems", i.e systems where "they're just like that" rather than there being a specific root trauma. The trauma that forms something like BPD is everyday and commonplace - an environment of traumatic invalidation - just kinda being gaslit by life. Also I think there's a popular understanding that the way people heal from wounds is not their "natural" state and is therefore wrong, but you just have to accept that you are the shape you are and you have no choice but to love yourself. I guess after writing that sentence I should probably acknowledge that I'm plural and that I've known since I was a teenager but was too scared to tell anyone until about two years ago. Where was i. Okay you need to accept that every experience shapes and affects you some amount and lose the idea that trauma is a unique kind of experience which is bad and makes you somehow bad or less or deformed.

Just because someone is some kind of way because of experiences they had doesn't mean they need fixing. Everyone who will ever live is ways they are because of stuff that happened. My point is that I don't see a distinction between systems being "born this way" or formed through specific trauma as long as they are comfortable and happy existing as themselves in the world, and it's stupid and reductive to try and redefine plurality in singular terms when no one is truly singular anyway

[sophieinwonderland]

A Roadmap and Why Anti-Endos Are Getting Left Behind

A recent post of mine was controversial and has been making waves. That post was the short un-nuanced version of a pro-endo future that's coming. It was phrased to sound threatening and inflammatory because it feels like that's all anti-endos will listen to anymore. But now that I've successfully gotten your attention, let's talk seriously about what's been set into motion, why it's bad for anti-endos, and why there's absolutely nothing you can do to stop it.

Positions on endogenic plurality in psychiatry

The nature of DID has been the subject of much debate within the psychiatric community for a long time. Most experts have agreed that the cause of DID is virtually always trauma. (Although many doctors are hesitant to assert this cause 100% of the time because edge cases can exist with anything.) But there's a smaller group that views it as sociogenic or iatrogenic, being caused by suggestion or doctors themselves.

I tend to agree with the majority.

But that majority group that believes DID itself is caused by trauma has also consistently acknowledged that there are, or at least could be, other forms of plurality beyond DID. This includes Dr. Colin Ross, who in the 90s speculated that there could be a non-pathological endogenous form of multiplicity. This was also echoed by Kluft, another DID expert who holds the traumagenic view of DID.

In the early 2010s, the creators of the theory of structural dissociation mentioned in a paper that mediumship and hypnosis may involve self-conscious dissociative parts of the personality.

By 2019, the World Health Organization's ICD-11's DID entry stated that you can experience multiple distinct personality states without a disorder.

Every source you can find about endogenic and non-disordered plurality either affirms it as a real thing or is at least neutral on it.

There is no hard anti-endo papers in psychiatry or psychology.

You can look through peer reviewed sources if you want for a single one that supports the idea that all plurality is traumagenic, and I promise that you won't find one.

A growing trend in research.

Like I said, in the 90s, there were a couple doctors talking about non-pathological multiplicity as something that may or may not exist. But this was largely un-studied. Later, this phenomenon got more attention, but there were no studies into non-pathological multiplicity, outside of spiritual possession, until 2016 with Varieties of Tulpa Experiences.

That was only 8 years ago.

The year after, in 2017, came a small interview study into online multiples that concluded this:

2018 saw the publication of Transgender Mental Health by The American Psychiatric Association, which asserted plurality could be non-traumagenic.

And again, 2019 saw the ICD-11 worded to say that one could experience the presence of multiple distinct personality states without a disorder.

There have been so many studies conducted in the intervening years that this post would go on forever were I to list them all.

If you want to see more, you can look at Guardians Systems' doc. Progress is happening at a rapid pace with new studies published every year.

This leads us to the next big milestone... actual fMRI research and brain scans. Because THAT'S HAPPENING.

Stanford University conducted a massive $50k study (not including the payment to researchers themselves) into tulpa systems, and the people running those studies recently did an AMA about it on Reddit.

The results are promising, showing neurological changes during possession. (Possession is a tulpamancy term for a headmate taking control over a single part of the body without fronting.)

Once this is published, it's only going to further pique interest in tulpamancy and endogenic plurality in psychology.

Are you scared yet? Because Rod Dreher is...

Rod Dreher is a transphobic conservative pundit and reactionary. I'll preface this by saying it's unclear how much of his fear is legitimate and how much is playing to a transphobic base as a way of saying "look what these liberals are doing now." Personally, I think it's probably a bit of both.

I'll be linking the archived version to avoid giving him clicks.

What conservative pundit Rod Dreher believes is that tulpamancy and plurality are going to be the next frontier of identity politics, as he makes the case for here.

He's of course NOT in support of this, but he's afraid of it.

And he's not wrong either.

In another quote from the AMA, Dr. Lifshitz mentions how much interest he gets from colleagues when he discusses tulpamancy.

The awareness of plurality and interest in it in medical spaces is rapidly spreading, and current studies do show tulpamancy improves mental health.

While it would be easy to dismiss Dreher's predictions as typical conservative fearmongering, the current trends clearly support what he's predicting.

He may be on the wrong side of the debate, but he can see the same signs and trends I do.

Plural Acceptance In Therapy

As said above, studies have shown thus far that tulpamancy is healthy, as are other forms of plurality. Plural awareness and interest is spreading quickly through academic circles.

And in one interview, Lifshitz mentions that they're interested in using research into tulpamancy to develop better DID treatment.

This will take a while to apply, and I don't know when they'll start using knowledge from tulpamancy in clinical settings, but there's a good chance that within the next decade, this research into tulpamancy may start to influence the treatment of DID systems.

How this will manifest is still unclear. Perhaps it won't go further than the advanced inner world exercises tulpamancers use to immerse themselves in inner worlds to communicate with tulpas.

But... a number of DID systems with tulpas have reported positive benefits from creating tulpas to help their systems. So maybe we'll see studies into using tulpamancy to intentionally make alters for DID systems and see how that benefits their mental health. If results are positive, this could be used in treatment.

Speaking of which, we're probably also going to see studies into having singlets create tulpas intentionally.

They're already having children make imagined companions, and have recorded these imagined companions are able to act seemingly autonomously, possessing their own thoughts and feelings.

This research cited research into tulpamancy, and suggested future studies should be carried out on adults to see if there are benefits.

I can already see the path from having adult singlets make tulpas to test for benefits of plurality, and then to testing on DID systems to see if this could be used to help strengthen communication in those systems.

And if these studies are done and the methods are proven effective and put into practice, anti-endos won't even know that the methods that are being used to treat them were derived from tulpamancy studies.

But as more anti-endos are being treated by therapists who are working to get them into healthier mindsets, it's likely you'll see a trickle down from the opinions of therapists to their patients, helping dismantle their bigotry towards endogenic systems and internalized pluralphobia.

If you're anti-endo and have seen other anti-endos complaining that their therapists seem pro-endo, know that it only gets worse from here.

Plural Acceptance and Gender

Plurality is also likely to become an increasingly big thing in topics around gender.

Just last year in 2023, we saw a study into the intersection of living as plural and transgender.

This study also marked a major milestone for plurals, being the first time ever that a system name (The Redwoods) was used as an author on an academic paper. Authors in this study worked across multiple universities, a hospital, and a gender wellness center.

This will almost definitely not be the last.

Additionally, we've lately been seeing live gender conferences with plural speakers speaking about plurality and this intersection. No longer is this community based entirely online.

Plural acceptance is going to quickly spread within the LGBT community. And anti-endos will be tolerated in those spaces less and less.

A Stranglehold on Resources

Another reason anti-endos are going to lose is because most resources are already pro-endo. Simply Plural and Pluralkit both support endogenic systems, with Simply Plural having links discussing endogenic plurality, linking young systems to the information.

There have been anti-endo attempts at breaking this stranglehold, but it always comes down to copying a more popular pro-endo thing and making it more hateful and exclusive, and it never gets close to enough traction.

Anti-endos contribute nothing to the community and are reliant on pro-endo resources, and every person they suggest Simply Plural to brings them closer to those pro-endo articles from The Plural Association.

Confidence in Being Out as Plural Means Plural Role Models

I don't know who these role models will be. Aimkid came out as a DID system and is pro-endo. Unfortunately, anti-endos have had success in bullying Aimkid off of social media.

But some studies have shown about 3% of the population is plural, only about half of which have DID, and I believe the real numbers are actually much higher.

As plural acceptance increases, it's only a matter of time before you start seeing some of your favorite celebrities come out as plural.

It's only a matter of time before plurals have their equivalent of "The Puppy Episode" where Ellen came out as lesbian on television.

I can't predict when this will happen. Things like that tend to come out of the blue. But I do believe it will happen and when it does, plurality will suddenly be pushed to the mainstream conversation.

This is Going to Quickly Become a Left-Right Issue

When plurality hits the mainstream, conservatives will fiercely oppose it. Because of the way reactions tend to work, that means liberals are going to fiercely defend it. Each side feeds into the other and results in more support in liberal spaces and more opposition in conservatives ones.

I'm not going to sugarcoat this. If you stand by bigotry in these liberal spaces, especially queer spaces, you're going to find your social circle shrinking unless you keep that bigotry to yourself. When this is part of the national conversation, you will find yourself cutoff by people you care about and spaces you previously would be accepted.

Intolerance to plural systems of any kind will no longer be tolerated. There will be no safe space for hate in those communities.

And with the overwhelming science and doctors supporting the existence of non-disordered and endogenic systems, with the support of the psych community, anti-endos will soon find themselves regarded the same way we regard anti-vaxxers and flat-Earthers in liberal spaces.

A Choice to Make

You're not doomed. This isn't hopeless. You can make a change.

System medicalism is The Titanic but you have life rafts you can hop on before it goes down.

Plenty of anti-endos have changed their ways. But if you stay on your current course, this is where it ends. You either maintain your bigotry, as you're cast out of queer communities, watching endogenic plurality infiltrate your favorite media, and with therapists who are pro-endo, all while your own hate and isolation destroy you...

Or you can choose to be better before it's too late. Because the longer you maintain your hate, the more people you hurt along the way, the more guilt you'll carry with you after you break away.

Or... I guess there's a secret third thing. A worse choice. You could join with the Rod Drehers of the world, because the Alt-Right will probably accept you gladly if you're willing to toe the party line, and turn against both fellow systems and the queer community.

I'm sure they would love systems with internalized pluralphobia who speak out against a plural future that they can hold up as examples, the same way they love homophobic gay people like Milo Yiannopoulos.

If that's what you want to be, I suppose that's an option too. 🤷‍♀️

If you do make right choice...

You can find acceptance. Your past mistakes won't be held against you.

Admitting that you're wrong and choosing to be better can be scary. But that's no excuse to continue down a path of hate.

If you do choose to make a change, we can build a plural future together. One where we won't have to hide or fear discrimination for being plural.

One where future plural children won't have to grow up feeling crazy and hating themselves and their headmates for being different, and they'll have real people to look up to who have been where they are.

My Part...

For myself, I'm going to do everything I can to push this future forward, to help bring it about. This future is an inevitability. But the more of us that spread awareness of the science and what's happening, the sooner it gets here.

But with or without my involvement... anti-endos... you're losing. Bit by bit, every single day, and you don't even realize it because you're surrounded by an echo chamber that refuses to see the reality of what's happening.

But We see it. Dr. Lifshitz sees it. Even conservative Rod Dreher sees it.

And you are so far behind in this battle that there's no way you can possibly prevent what is coming. Maybe you could have stopped it had you started paying attention half a decade ago. But you've walled yourselves off from anything that contradicted your worldview and that willful ignorance has left you playing catch-up.

Your echo chamber will tell you that you're safe to keep being who you are, to keep spreading hate and hurting innocent people because of what we are. That the future I promise won't happen. They'll tell you to ignore all the signs.

But the reality is that the world is changing and the future is plural, and you are going to have to make a choice.

I sincerely hope you will choose the right thing. But for those who don't...

Well, like I said, it's up to you. I can't stop you from choosing hate. I'm not going to try to make you into a better person either. That's up to you.

But I think you at least deserve to know what's happening and how it will end up affecting you if you don't make a change.

[dn-838]

In defence of Undertale Yellow, how it can work with Undertale’s canon

So, I have seen a lot of debating recently on Undertale Yellow and whether or not it fits what we know already about the lore in Undertale. Of course Flowey’s presence in the mod is the primary thing that has sparked this debate, with many believing that he can’t have existed at the same time as the Justice Soul and that it is a major hole that breaks the continuity of Undertale. I however, as someone who has spent way too much time with Undertale and has vast knowledge about even the most obscure of details in the game, disagree. I believe that Undertale Yellow fits the original games canon well… maybe a bit too well, and I am here to give my own arguments against the things that I commonly see people say doesn’t fit the original game’s continuity. This may contain a few spoilers for Undertale Yellow, so unless you’ve already seen all 3 routes or for whatever reason don’t care about having the game spoiled, don’t read further until you are done.

Argument 1: all the Souls were already collected by the creation of Flowey and the amalgamates

Okay so this one I don’t really have much to say about. Yes Flowey and the Amalgamates were created using the SOULs of some of the collected humans, however it’s never specified that it was from 6 humans, all that’s made clear is that Asgore did have human SOULs (in plural) that were used in the experiment.

Argument 2: the timeline doesn’t match up

The timeline has always been a confusing topic among the Undertale community. While the most likely estimate of the gap between Chara and Frisk falling is 100 years due to what Sans tells us during his date.

There are a few reasons for us to believe that the gap is much smaller, especially considering the weird nature of the Deltarune timeline and the supposed grudge Chara seems to have against Snowdrake in Genocide (who is stated to only be a teenager).

However, no matter how you view the timeline, unless you have specific dates in mind for things like when Gaster was the Royal Scientist and when the fall of Integrity-Justice happened, or think the gap was REALLY short, Undertale Yellow doesn’t really contradict it too much. The game itself is meant to take place just a year before Undertale, with all the same characters existing in similar positions to how they do by the time of Undertale, however we never encounter them due to being on a completely different path that takes us to very different parts of the underground, being why they don’t behave like they encountered a human before in Undertale.

Integrity is a bit more interesting, because it can vary massively depending on how you view the lifespans of the Ketsukane’s, Starlo (Starlo won’t be important to this, but I mention him since he was childhood friends with Ceroba) and Dalv. It is strongly implied that as a kid, Dalv was best friends with Kanako, and was attacked by the Integrity human some point before the games events. At first you’d assume that this was all not meant to be long before the events of the game, however, Integrity was killed by Axis in UTY, a robot that was being worked on by Chujin back when the Steamworks were still in operation, which we can assume was long before the events of the game due to the state of the Steamworks itself and the fact it is stated to have been used as the source of all power in the underground, which would mean it would likely have shut down around the period that the CORE was first put into operation, so all the way back when Gaster was still the Royal Scientist, whenever you think that was (Axis wasn’t sent to kill the human until after Chujin was fired from his position, however due to the way Axis is locked up and deactivated before we wake up the Steamworks, we can assume he was shut down with the rest of the facility). On top of all this Dalv is shown to be a lot older than he presumably would have been when he was attacked by Integrity, and with him being a Vampire, you could say that he aged that much at a slower rate than a human would, with the Ketsukane’s also aging slow, 2 of them being Boss Monsters and one of them being a 9 tailed fox. We know that some monsters do likely age at very different rates due to monsters like Gerson who lived through the war.

So to give the whole timeline, basically, Chujin worked in the Steamworks and made Axis back before or during Gaster’s time as the royal scientist. After several failed prototypes that eventually got Chujin fired, Axis was sent to chase down and kill Integrity. He managed and Chujin kept the Soul hidden and over the span of years recorded a few tapes for what he had planning, meanwhile Dalv, who was previously attacked by Integrity, went into hiding, locking himself into a mostly dark and unknown part of the ruins. At some point when Alphy’s became the Royal Scientist, Chujin started to mentor Martlet, which led Martlet to enter the True Lab and get some strange serum. Eventually Chujin died around a year or two before UTY, revealing his hidden tapes to Ceroba, which Kanako overheard. This led to Ceroba attempting to inject Kanako with the Integrity soul, leading to Kanako falling and being donated to Alphy’s, and her of course then becoming an amalgamate.

Argument 3: Asgore killed all 6 of the other humans

Okay so this one is interesting, because Undyne does imply that humans before Frisk did make it to Asgore, with her saying that “no human has ever made it PAST Asgore” rather than “no human has ever made it TO Asgore”

The thing is, that other humans reached Asgore is all this really does imply, it doesn’t necessarily mean all humans made it to Asgore. You could argue that most of them died to Asgore, with Integrity and Justice being the only exceptions. If you really want to stretch you could even say that this line was actually just another attempt from Undyne to make Asgore sound like a powerful and threatening force (since she tries to make him out like that quite a bit in her fight, such as by saying that killing us is an act of mercy right after this), although I find this unlikely.

There is another line of dialogue that I sometimes see used to try and prove that Asgore killed all 6, and while it’s not used close to as much, I’ll still just quickly clear it up.

This doesn’t really mean that much, all it’s saying is that all the humans that leave the ruins inevitably die. She likely wouldn’t know any details on their deaths do to her isolation, and even if she had some knowledge she would probably still place the blame on Asgore due to his part in waging war and coming up with the plan to kill 7 humans in the first place.

Argument 4: The introduction of new incredibly powerful characters makes no sense

Okay, so this is a weird one, however the explanation for it is fairly simple. Nobody in UTY compares to the original Undertale cast when it comes to how “powerful” they are. We struggle so much against the opponents we face as Clover because well… Clover is much weaker than Frisk, bosses like Ceroba and Axis pale in comparison to Undyne and Mettaton, they just seem much harder since we are playing as a human with much less determination than Frisk. In Pacifist Clover fights a depressed fox lady, meanwhile Frisk fights a literal god; in Neutral Clover goes through a struggle fighting through Flowey’s mind after having his Soul absorbed, meanwhile Frisk holds on against Flowey with 6 Souls until those Souls rebel; and in Genocide Clover takes some time to finally destroy Axis, the failed prototype that got Chujin fired, meanwhile Frisk atomised Mettaton NEO, The greatest invention of the Scientist who was selected to replace Gaster, in a single blow.

The only Undertale Yellow character that I’d say surpasses any character in Undertale would of course be Zenith Martlet, but even then LV 19 Frisk would mop the floor with her, while LV 19 Clover had to go through a lot of effort to beat her, only ever managing to surpass Flowey in Determination after doing so. At LV 20 both Clover and Frisk have massive boosts from LV 19, however Frisk is far stronger, having awakened Chara and caused the destruction of everything, while Clover just destroys Asgore with a super laser blast directly from their Soul and leaves.

Argument 5: miscellaneous

Just to clear up any further confusion, I’ll give quick explanations for some more minor points that I have encountered

Nobody in the original Undertale apart from Flowey, Toriel and Asgore meets Clover, so the other monsters in Undertale acting like they had never met one makes sense.

Flowey not just stealing Clovers Soul is explained well by the game itself. He plans to, however he doesn’t get the chance in Pacifist; sees that we couldn’t surpass Asgore in Flawed Pacifist; steals our soul but is unsatisfied with the outcome and resets in Neutral, and gets gunned down in Genocide.

Toriel believing that it’s been a long time since a previous human fell when she sees Frisk in Undertale doesn’t mean much, she mostly lives isolated in the Ruins, with the other monsters being too afraid to speak with her, considering this and just generally how much seemed to have happened within that year, time could have felt much slower. Alternatively you could argue that the 6 humans all fell within months of each other, and that a years gap is a long time in comparison to the rate the first 6 fell (or 5, since she says the exact same thing to Clover).

Both Flowey and Clover using file 1 at the end of Genocide doesn’t fit what we know about save files no, however I feel it is a little nit-picky to use it as a definitive reason to discredit how well UTY fits into canon, after all the only thing you’d need to do is change the numbers and this would be fixed.

The Gunsmith having been born a week before the Human Vs Monster war doesn’t go against anything we already know. As stated before, we know that at least some monsters like Gerson do live for a very long time.

Flowey having more determination than Clover also doesn’t break anything. Flowey was injected with DT from 5 human Souls. The thing is that Frisk was special when it came to the amount of determination they had.

Unlike with most of the other cast, nobody in Undertale actually indicates that Flowey never met a human prior to Frisk.

Chujin being a boss Monster doesn’t contradict what we know about Boss Monsters. We know that the Dreemurrs are boss monsters, but nothing tells us that they are the only boss monsters.

Argument 6: the nature of the SAVE files contradicts Undertale Yellow

Here we go, the penultimate argument I shall argue against. Never did I expect for this obscure piece of Undertale lore to be the bane of my existence but here we are. For a short time I thought that this could not be countered, only after I had walked away from a discussion completely defeated did the pieces finally start to come together, and now finally… I have an explanation.

First things first, let’s look at the 10 save files. The files go from file 0 to file 9. We know that File 0 likely belongs to Chara due to it being the one that we save with in Undertale, and that file 9 belongs to Frisk since it works as the games Autosave/Checkpoint system. File 8 would then of course belong to Flowey, not just because it’s the one just before Frisks but because File 8 appears in your files after you beat Omega Flowey to mark your completion of a Neutral run, likely implying that his previous SAVE was of course when he was Omega Flowey. Flowey also uses files 2, 3 and 6 throughout the Omega Flowey battle, and since Toriel implies that other humans who fell were also able to save and reset, we can assume that 2-6 likely belonged to previously fallen humans.

Now the only files that need an explanation are file 1 and file 7, and I’ve seen 2 interesting theories for this. The first is that file 1 belongs to Asriel after he took Chara’s Soul, and the other is that file 7 belongs to Lemon Bread since they know what a SAVE point looks like and tries to trick us with it; but the thing is, which one of these are true? Surely it can’t be both since we know one needs to belong to the 6th… okay I’ll cut that out you already know I’m going to say they are both true.

So for Asriel having file 1, he absorbed Chara’s Soul so should have all of their determination and therefore should also have overtaken their ability to SAVE. Of course it’s unlikely that Asriel would have made anything out of it since the idea of saving and loading was fairly alien to Flowey, however that doesn’t necessarily rule out the possibility that Asriel didn’t SAVE or at least have a file created.

Lemon Bread is a bit more complicated, and we are gonna need to look into the order of events within the True Lab to try and work this out. Firstly, we need to look at some of the true lab entries.

ASGORE asked everyone outside the city for monsters that had "fallen down."

Their bodies came in today.

They're still comatose... And soon, they'll all turn into dust.

But what happens if I inject "determination" into them?

If their SOULS persist after they perish, then...

Freedom might be closer than we all thought.

This is entry 6, when the fallen down monsters are given to Alphy’s and have Determination injected into them.

I've chosen a candidate.

I haven't told ASGORE yet, because I want to surprise him with it...

In the center of his garden, there's something special.

The first golden flower, that grew before all the others.

The flower from the outside world.

It appeared just before the queen left.

I wonder...

What happens when something without a SOUL gains the will to live?

This is entry 8, Alphy’s gets a hold of a golden flower that she injects Determination into.

“One of the bodies opened its eyes.

This is entry 13, when the fallen monsters started to regain consciousness, 7 entries after they were first delivered.

Seems like this research was a dead end...

But at least we got a happy ending out of it...?

I sent the SOULS back to ASGORE, returned the vessel to his garden....

And I called all of the families and told them everyone's alive.

I'll send everyone back tomorrow. :)

This is entry 15, by this point all the monsters that had fallen down were awake, and the still not conscious Golden Flower was still just a Flower, being returned alongside the human Souls.

no No NO NO NO NO NO

This is entry 16, the fallen down monsters started to melt together and create the amalgamates.

the flower's gone.

Finally, we have entry 18, when Alphy’s noticed that the Flower seems to have disappeared from the garden, 10 entries after she first selected it.

So, why are these entries so important? Well we know that to have ever held the ability to SAVE, Lemon Bread would have to had held the right amount of Determination before Flowey first became conscious in the garden, and did they? Yes, yes they did. Flowey could have awakened anywhere in the timeframe between entry 15 when he was returned to entry 18 when Alphy’s noticed him gone, however all the fallen down monsters that were injected with Determination were already awake by this point, and therefore prior to Flowey waking up, they would have been the most determined beings in the underground, perhaps with enough determination that whichever monster happened to have the most was able to SAVE. The time that they would have had with the ability would also have at least been for longer than Asriel had it since Flowey can’t have awoken until after a couple entries later at the bare minimum. Of course since this follows the idea that Lemon Bread had the SAVE ability since they knew what a SAVE point looks like, we can assume that the monster in question would have been Shyren’s sister, since I doubt that the Moldbygg and Aaron that also make up Lemon Bread would hold such a role.

Argument 7: Flowey’s backstory

I really thought I was done with this infuriating Flower, but it appears not. For there is a single hole I need to clear up… Flowey’s Genocide speech. Of course this should be fairly simple to clear up-

Ah… well okay this makes things interesting. If Flowey didn’t know where the Souls were stored then that would make it very hard to believe that Flowey ever encountered a human before Frisk since if that were the case then Flowey would definitely have an opportunity to sneak by and see where they are hiding, however this is not what the dialogue actually means. Flowey knew where the Souls were, he sneaks in to steal them in Neutral while we are talking to a defeated Asgore, his only issue was that he wasn’t able to get them out without Asgore. In repeated Neutral runs he still just waits until we are distracted with Asgore to take the Souls, and in Pacifist he takes them while the main cast are all distracted which again is when the canisters are open and available.

On a last note, here’s some dialogue that actually helps the idea that Flowey encountered another human.

It’s made clear all throughout the underground that humans have far greater Determination than monsters, and while you could argue that Flowey was just overconfident in his abilities, it’s still fairly strange that Flowey would still find a human having the DT to overwrite his abilities something special, unless of course he’d encountered a human previously who wasn’t able to do as much.

Conclusion

So, that’s about all I have to say, honestly I’m just glad to be done with it. This was a lot of work, and I’m excited to see this post which I’ve been working on for 3 days get completely dismantled almost immediately. Anyways, wish everyone reading a good day and goodbye!

[jbeefletcher]

Thots and feelings about Dragon Age : The Veilguard (I'm disappointed)

DRAGON AGE : THE VEILGUARD SPOILERS UNDER THE CUT (CRITICAL)

I truly cannot believe the direction they went for this game.

Everything in Veilguard, from equipment and combat to the story, characters and lore - EVERYTHING has been simplified and sanitised to the point of complete sterility.

It’s not glossing over some minor lore points to make itself less daunting to new players. It is completely erasing or ignoring major points of its own lore in order to be palatable for the widest audience.

It should have been a direct sequel to Inquisition, but is instead a complete 180 from it. It is so completely disinterested in continuing on from other games that it actively tries to pretend that the 3 previous games didn’t happen. To make it absolutely clear that all of your characters, decisions and experiences from the previous games couldn’t matter any less, it basically turns all of Southern Thedas - every area we have ever been to or interacted with - into a giant smoking crater. Everything we’ve done in any of the previous games is undone. All the areas that we helped, the people that we saved, all the peace and order, all the political stability or instability, all the structures we established or destroyed - gone. Destroyed off screen. Like it never even happened. Wiping the slate completely clean so it can march forward with this new terrible direction and not be burdened with trying to tell the same cohesive story that it’s original player base were fascinated with and waited 10 years for.

All they had to do was continue telling the story they were already telling, in the world setting they already established. If BioWare were so indifferent about making a Dragon Age game with any semblance of cohesion or follow through, then they should have just made a different IP that would have quitely flopped like Anthem did.

And to all the dudebros saying this game is failing because of woke, fuck you. This game is failing because they gutted everything that made it a unique, interesting and immersive world in lieu of churning out a generic, soulless fantasy MMO to sell as many units as possible to people who never gave a shit about Dragon Age before.

After waiting 10 years for this, after seeing the constant nightmares of its production cycles (plural), mass staff layoffs, mass quitting and the overall apathy and exhaustion of everyone involved, I’m beyond disappointed. I’m crushed.

[olderthannetfic]

This week has been a perfect example of why im never fucking coming out about being plural in fandom spaces. All you heartless fakeclaiming sanist chucklefucks coming out of the woodwork to attack children who dare be a little cringe and too honest about their neurodiversity and blame the actions of a couple assholes who ignore community mandates about system responsibility to be examples of the whole community have just proved you can't trust fucking singlets with any authentic bit of yourself oh my god.

You should all be ashamed of yourselves. Where is the 'cringe culture is dead' now? Where is 'believe people about their experiences'? Wheres the mad pride allies?

Because this? This is not allyship. This is not ~defending real DID havers~ from those yucky roleplaying kids who report large fictive-heavy systems with frequent restructuring who are too dumb to know what they are talking about. This is attacking the most vulnerable members of our community like rabid kiwifarm cringe subreddit losers because they are an acceptable target for your ire.

Disappointed but not surprised. The only people who can be trusted to look after the plural community and support us is the community itself- a fact proven time and time again.

At least these posts are a free blocklist.

--

[inbabylontheywept]

The Mormon Heretic Casts a Curse

So, this is a sequel piece to The Mormon Heretic and the Leviathan. @apolloendymion requested that I write some more of the stories, and this is another one. I'm going to put a trigger warning here that the story does involve partner abuse. Not from the heretic, but just... as a detail. Also, I guess, some medical stuff that involves death. It's Old Testament shit. Take it as you will.

Mormon seminary has four separate courses about the four separate parts of their canon. It’s on a constant rotation, and my particular ordering was Old Testament, then New Testament, then Book of Mormon, then Doctrine and Covenants. 

I got the Mormon Heretic for my OT year, which is 100% the best year I could have possibly got him for. And, also, absolutely the worst, because at that time I was a very orthodox Mormon, and this guy couldn’t have fucked with my brain worse if JFK’s dad gave him an icepick and a waiver. 

At that time I had an abysmal understanding of the OT, and to call my experience with it jarring would be an understatement. I learned that Elohim is a plural word. I learned that OT God itself doesn’t deny the existence of other Gods, and in fact relished challenging them to contests. The whole experience was so insane to me that I stayed after class one day to ask the teacher how he managed to bridge the divide between the OT and the NT. They're insanely different theologies, and he really refused to mince words about it.

He listened to my concerns, and I cried a little because I was fourteen and beginning to realize that there was something fundamentally wrong with the religion I was born into, and when it was all said and done he said that tomorrow he would teach the story of how he squared away the differences between OT God and NT God. 

And he did. 

I can remember having a sense that something was strange when we arrived at the building. There was a crosswalk where the exiting teenagers would pass the entering teenagers, and normally people would discuss the lesson as they passed. The group we passed just looked shell shocked. 

I sat down. The class arrived. Heretic stood up, and went to the front of the class, and he began his tale: 

He had a little sister that got married at nineteen. She then started making visits to the hospital. 

He, like his family, assumed that she was just clumsy. He was clumsy. He’d had multiple surgeries on his shoulders and his elbows and his knees because he kept doing dumb things to himself.

She was not clumsy. Her husband was beating her. 

She got a divorce. Heretic was old when the story was being told - I think in his early sixties? - and the divorce went shockingly well for the time. Sister was not blamed, husband was ostracized from both families, and life found a way to continue in its slow way. 

Heretic was, at that point, a new teacher in the Church Education System (CES). He was trying to be a spiritual guy, and teach spiritual lessons, but he just wasn’t doing a very good job because he was really, really, murderously angry with the guy that had hurt his sister. 

Sister had moved on. Or, he thought she had, he was hardly telepathic, but he felt like she’d let go and started her life anew, and her parents had supported her, and even her in laws had supported her, and things should have been easy to let go of, but they weren’t. And every day that he tried to let go, he got more and more angry, and every day he tried to pretend he was fine he ripped the wound wider, and one day he taught a spectacularly bad lesson and came home and wanted nothing more than to kill the man that had beat his sister. He instead said a prayer. I cannot quote it verbatim, but this is very, very close to what was said. “God, I know that I must forgive to be forgiven, but I want nothing more than to see that animal choke to death on his own shit.”(I know for a fact that the choke on shit part was in it. It is not a common thing to hear a seminary teacher say “shit” in the middle of class. It is also integral to the rest of the story) If this was a book, there would’ve been an immediate result, but instead Heretic felt a strange peace, grabbed ahold of it like a lifeline, and resolved to go to therapy. Which is how he got into Jungian analysis. Finding therapy in the deep South in 1980 was pretty wild. Jump cut forward to the early 2000s. Heretic has moved on. Sister is remarried. He is at peace with the world, but he gets a call from his sisters old in-laws. 

And the in-laws say that yes, they have ostracized the abuser for the last twenty years, but they got a call from him a few hours ago to please, meet him at the hospital, because he was sick. 

And the abuser was, in fact, very sick. He’d been vomiting for days. The doctors couldn’t figure out why, but they knew that at the present rate, they were running out of time. He was going to have some kind of exploratory surgery as a hail Mary, and the guy wanted a blessing first. 

And so the family had gone to Heretic, to ask him if he would be willing to bless the man that had beat his sister. It is one thing, to feel like you have forgiven someone enough to move on, and another to wish good things upon them. But Heretic had spent years and years in therapy, and he developed on an incredibly spiritual path, and he said that yes, he would bless the man before the surgery. 

And he did. 

The surgery found that the man had a benign mass in his colon. It wasn’t spreading, but it had grown large enough to prevent food from going around it. Without an exit, things had built up back to the entrance. The man was throwing up because there was nowhere else for the shit to go. Worse, during the surgery he thrown up and some of the mix had managed to drain back into the man’s lungs. He survived the knife, but the combination of fecal matter and acid inside his lungs had created an infection that he failed to survive. He drowned in his own fluids. 

He drowned in his own shit. 

Now, at that point, the class had no idea where this was going. We were a bunch of children, hearing a story about this insane divine retribution, but the Heretic continued. 

And with tears in his eyes, he told us that God had answered his original prayer only after he had fully and truly forgiven that man. That if he’d wished death on another human being in anger, in rage, and then received it, it would have damned his soul, but that as soon as he was at peace, as soon as he could wish life and love upon the man that had wronged his kin, justice could be brought down. And be believed it, with his entire heart. He spoke about how God wants to give us what we want, but that he loves us so much that we will not give it to us until we have reached the point where it is not poison to us. We will have our revenge, but only when it is meaningless to us. When the only lesson that could be grabbed from it is that God heard us the first time, and held back out of love. Then, we will see those who had wronged us choke on their shit.  

The bell rang after that, and we left the class in a daze. When we went across the crosswalk, no one spoke a word to the students crossing the opposite way. We were all too busy thinking. 

[is-that-plural]

BMO from adventure time!

blatant syscoding if you ask me

we've originally watched adventure time when we were just a kid and there was something so mesmerising about BMO but it truly resurfaced and proved itself to us after the BMO monologue went viral

tldr; BMO experiences a heck of a traumatic event (basically them being crushed into nonexistence & having to do things no child should ever witness and do)

"BMO always bounces back"

"nuh uh! not this time"

WDYM nuh uh the way it's played out, the way it's visualised and implied they have at least as much as seven different identity states... i love the writing on this one 10/10 me and my headmates crode

a little note: we've read the scaramouche (wanderer) post and discovered we do in fact have a scara alter cause he got all uncooperative. thank you admims we love the new discovery /gen it's nice to see how we can all have different systemhood experiences! :D

!!

Rating: plus they're a robot! thats pretty plural in it of itself !!

[astro-is-a-bigot]

Hiiii. I'm uh. I'm not astro-is-a-bigot Major, I'm astro-is-a-bigot Minor you could say (because that seems funny) and I thought it might be cool if I talked about myself because my experiences are very relevant to Astro thinking he can get away with calling people's plurality "psychosis" as if psychosis and plurality are mutually exclusive... Which it isn't. Obviously so.

I have been diagnosed with schizophrenia since I was a teen and have recently(? it's been a couple of years) developed plural symptoms, if that's what you'd call it. Is my plurality a result of psychosis? No. How do I know? Because they occur completely incongruently, which is something that Astro obviously leaves out as a possibility with this "you're not a multiple you're psychotic!" kind of stigma. And how do I know they're incongruent? Because I've come to understand my psychosis by having to live with it, which Astro looks over with the stigma of "if you're psychotic you can't tell if you're experiencing psychosis".

This will vary from person to person but I personally do not experience a constant psychosis in terms of delusions and hallucinations, and the intensity of that psychosis varies. From lived experience, I can generally tell when I'm starting to have an onset of psychosis, when I'm in the midst of psychosis, and when the symptoms pass. I understand the certain kind of "motifs" that my psychosis lingers on in terms of delusions and hallucinations. It is very possible for someone to understand their psychosis and be aware of it and many psychotic people will attest to this.

So IF all endogenic plurality is really just psychosis, surely, my "plurality" would only come up when my psychosis is intense... But it hasn't been. Have I experienced psychosis during times I've been more dissociated? Yes. But have there been times where I've experienced only psychosis or only dissociation? Also yes. And my psychotic delusions and hallucinations come in clusters so if the rebuttal were to be "well maybe it's just a different kind of hallucination--" that has never been how my psychosis has worked.

Also, there's obviously a major difference in terms of the voices associated with my psychosis and that of my headmate. Physically, the voices I hear from my psychosis will originate from absolutely any point in the room and from outside of myself; whereas my headmate is quite "internal" and it feels like he'll either be speaking over my shoulder or somewhere "further back". Also, the voices from my psychosis don't really have anything to say other than being very mean to me... Sometimes they're kind of dynamic, but overall they're incredibly shallow and tend to be imposing on me. Meanwhile, Major is incredibly dynamic with a lot of unique thoughts and reacts to things like you would expect a person to.

There's also the whole uh not being in control of my body thing and the grey outs and all that stuff. Which, if it somehow still needs clarification, is NOT something that's ever been a part of my psychosis ever in any form. I have had dissociative symptoms probably even longer than I can recall my psychosis, but no one around me nor any records I have mention that kind of possession. So if you're confused by me referring to myself as endogenic despite identifying with dissociative symptoms, that is why.

This isn't to say there isn't occasional overlap, but correlation doesn't equal causation. For example, let's consider stress. Stress is... Complicated. Stress can cause my psychosis or my dissociation to flare up, so that may bring the two closer in "timing" therefore "my plurality must be a result of psychosis under stress". But actually, it's very possible for one to come after the other because psychosis or dissociation in itself leads to stress. I can remember a time where I had initially been doing relatively okay until my headmate had start taking over for a very long period of time, which made me feel out of control and completely stressed - which caused a psychosis induced by stress. Meanwhile, I can also remember a time where my psychosis was very distressing and my dissociation occured in reaction to that sense of danger - that being a dissociation induced by stress.

There is also an overlap in a certain theme that I won't be sharing so as to keep us an anonymous as possible (you know, having a blog dedicated to calling out a harasser doesn't bode well)... So someone might go, "You see! Your headmate resembles your delusions! Your plurality is just a result of psychosis!" But like... Yeah? Of course if I you have a heavy attachment to something, that's going to be the thing your brain is most ready to draw on and create something from. Psychosis and "alters" are pulling from the same pool of information, so it's not that surprising.

And this isn't to say that plurality caused by psychosis is even wrong. Like, who give af? They're not claiming to have DID, it's just a state of being plural due to psychosis. Not a big deal. And DID obviously has a distinct overlap with psychotic symptoms as well, so it's really weird to be pushing psychotic people away for being "fakers" as if they don't have more in common with you than what you may have with other neurodivergencies. There's just so many layers of wrongness to that kind of thought it's truly baffling.

[osdd-1bitch]

(UIL, UYL)

I see a lot of arguing about the differences between persecutors and malicitors, which for the purposes of this post are different in that persecutors harm the system out of a sense of lashing out, confusion, or other situation and malicitors are genuinely malicious. The knee jerk reaction is often against the term malicitor—persecutors are often already unfairly judged and mistreated in many systems in the first place and persecutors seem far more common than malicitors (if they are an existing role in more than one system). However, malicitors, after much research, do seem to exist a non-miniscule number of times. Perhaps this is a little broad but I’ve read multiple cases of medically defined systems having persecutors who are rejected wholesale, etc etc.

It’s another case, as it happens many times, of terms and advice that don’t apply to everyone. The unfortunate truth exists that you or I may see other experiences that don’t necessarily line up to our own and make assumptions that could hurt ourselves or others. It’s not a fault of the term. The solution I propose is to not rail against malicitor as a term and demand all plurals to get in touch with their persecutors immediately and cut them some slack—through experience I know urging too eagerly can cause belligerence and reluctant attitudes—but try and encourage more accepting attitudes for every member in the system. I did also want to note somewhere that some plurals are incapable of rejecting any member.

And I don’t believe malicitors are inherently incapable of change either. Most, or at least I, associate malicitors with members who are rejected or fall dormant instead of joining the system, is that oftentimes they refuse to choose to change. That isn’t a factor in some systems at all, and they very well can change. I know a lot of hurt people will be reactive to this idea, but it’s not an impossibility. Perhaps this association itself is part of the reason for the terms bad reputation. It’s usage as a description of motivation might be more useful than its association with the varied solutions.

Ultimately, like most things, YMM. Be patient with yourselves and others.

[misscammiedawn]

Hi, I hope this is okay to ask. There seems to be so much misinformation and I am kind of… profoundly confused. Can someone have headmates and/or be a system without having DID? Are they the same or do these all mean different things?

Hello, anon.

DID is just a diagnosis based on clinical observation. It's not observable in any scans and will not show a stripe on a saliva test. It just means that a doctor who is qualified to do so has given you a diagnostic screening and believes that it is your diagnosis.

It's also a remarkably weird one as it's simultaneously a lifelong affliction born in childhood which never goes away, but the diagnostic criteria for it is no longer satisfied when treatment has reached a point of which the symptoms are managed.

I truly wish there were better advice for you than to explore what you need to explore in your own life and assess your access to mental health care and whether or not you feel it would benefit you. When we received our diagnosis it was in association with our ongoing care for emotional breakdowns that were crippling us and erratic life destroying issues with maintaining relationships and a stable sense of personal identity.

The question should be less "do I need DID to have a system" and more "do I benefit from being diagnosed and treated?" and I can't answer that for you. The best I am able to speak on this question is to say not to think about it. It's an unimportant question in the grand scheme of things.

My personal experience with dissociative disorders is that my condition was hidden from me for much of my life and diagnosed and treated as CPTSD for most of my life, BPD after my transition and finally recognized and treated as DID in recent years. I think coming out as transgender and realizing that persistent feeling of "I feel like I am playing the role of [legal name]" did not go away was a good signal. We had a reason to feel like that prior to transition. We did not afterwards.

My personal belief on the formation of my condition is that in early childhood our environment was not safe and stable and we were unable to create a stable personality based on applied patterns that a child between the ages of 0-6 use to achieve their needs (attention, nourishment, protection etc) and so with no stable "core" personality state we developed a number of personality states that we shifted through to meet our general survival needs based on environment and those in turn became the foundation for a system of "parts" who make up the whole of me.

What I described there is an understanding that was reached in therapy based on The Theory of Structural Dissociation, itself a controversial piece of text (one of the authors disbarred for mistreatment of patients).

That all in to say I can only speak to my personal experience and my personal understanding of DID, which is based on our evolving understanding of the topic both as a system ourselves, as students of the medical dogma being released and as a patient of our current therapist.

These views, opinions and perspectives may and can change on a dime. There are a disturbing number of clinicians who do not believe chronic dissociative disorders lead to plurality in any regard. There are those in support communities who believe the number of people who are undiagnosed but experience plurality is as high as 15% of the global population.

Frankly. I'm not qualified to speak to anyone's experience beyond my own. All I can do is put out what we see and hear and feel and hope that it provides comfort for anyone out there who is as lost to themselves as we were to ourselves.

So can a person experience plurality without it being DID? Does every person who experiences plurality without trauma actually have a repressed and unacknowledged backstory?

It's none of my damned business.

Every person has their own story and their own baggage, much of which lays beneath the surface. We cannot fully know the depths of The Other and that is a scary thing because it means that someone could look at a person's lived truth and reject it...

And so the answer is simply "I do not know."

I can't possibly know.

I just care about people and believe them when they say things.

[theflintwarlock]

Celestial light and magic

I have often been unsatisfied with the way that current witchcraft communities approach the sun, the moon and the stars. The approach is often mythical or based in gender associations which don't particularly call to me. Since I've been exploring basic astronomy recently, I thought I'd write my personal guide to celestial magic. No hate to people who work with celestial bodies in different ways to me, I simply want to share my practice and experience with you all for those like me who might want a new perspective on an old practice.

The Sun

I have found that returning to the basics of astronomical knowledge on the sun has helped me connect with its energies and come at it from a new perspective.

The sun, the star in our solar system, is responsible for almost everything we see in daily life. Not just plants which live off its light, but our gravity itself, the planet we live on works in perfect harmony with the celestial bodies that surround it to create the world we hold dear. The workings of physics on our earth are not mundane but instead wonderful and magical. Our exact position in the solar system is what allows life. Whether you believe it is by chance or the gods that allowed it to happen, the beauty in it only grows when you learn more about our precious star.

The light that comes from the sun gives life, and its existence allows us to exist in tandem. But it is also deadly, its rays can burn and wither and one must apply caution when working with it. The warmth it gives us can sometimes be overwhelming, I think most of us have experienced that thanks to global warming.

Regardless, the sun, to me, represents the present. Everything that is during the day, the slow progress from dawn to dusk in the present moment. It represents life and warm light that gives light and hope to many, but it can also be too much at times. Just as life can be. But as it moves across the sky it is a reminder that the present moment changes. It is fluid, and each moment passes and brings forth another after it. The cycles of the sun, too, are this reminder. The solstices change as time passes, but they are ever a reminder to stay in the present moment and notice the world around you.

That was all very poetic, but in reality, it is very simple. The sun is a powerful tool for use in magic of abundance, life and happiness. But it can also be used in baneful ways that are less commonly addressed. The sun is a deadly laser, after all. As our star, there are few things that escape its touch. Harnessing its power can be simple, but that is a post for another day.

The Stars

I find that the stars are less often discussed as a plural celestial force in witchcraft and are more commonly associated with astrology. While the reading of the patterns of the stars is no doubt interesting, they themselves hold a unique power.

While at first glance it appears to be a cold light, these stars are not so different from our own star, the sun. Lightyears away still their light shines to us, some dying and some new. To me, this signifies the past. They are each of them unique, and while our position to them changes as the earth moves throughout the year, they each have their own place in the universe. Their own solar systems, their own galaxies. We change and the world around us changes, but the stars' patterns can be counted on and predicted.

I find the stars to be a unique and comforting sight, when I can get somewhere with a lack of light pollution to truly appreciate them. Though I may not have learnt the constellations by heart, there is something touching about stargazing. Do not forget to be curious about them, not just in learning their names and associations but in the light themselves. Venus shines brightly in the sky, not because it is a star but because it is a planet in our solar system. The same goes for Mars. I find learning about these planets and stars beyond far more enlightening than star signs. Do not forget that beneath the mysticism and the names lies a real, tangible light and power that you can feel if you only look.

The Moon

So much has been written on lunar magic I could not scratch the surface if I tried. But again I return to science to guide my magical inquiry. The moon, our moon, is a satellite which rotates around the earth in a unique and fascinating equilibrium which is special to our own planet. The moon, while small compared to some of Jupiter's moons for example, is uniquely large when compared to the size of our planet. This is what allows its gravitational force to influence the tides of the world.

If the sun is the present and the stars the past, the moon, then is the future. When the sun sets and the world is bathed in its light, it is a reflection of the sun that we cannot see. A reflection of the sun that has yet to rise, revealing things in the darkness which have yet to come to the light of the sun. Perhaps that is what gives the moon its unique power and special place in witchcraft practices. Perhaps it is its proximity to us, the closest celestial power and the only that humans have yet touched. Or perhaps it is the gods. Regardless of what its origin is, there is little doubt that the moon is a powerful force in witchcraft. Countless guides and books can tell you more than I could about it.

Light magic

When I say light magic I mean not the term often used in fantasy to mean "good" magic, but the use of light itself in magical practices. Celestial light is, in my opinion, the most powerful form of light available to us.

It is quite common for people to use sunlight or moonlight to 'charge' crystals or sun/moon water, but rarely have I seen a more in depth explanation of how light can be used in spells. Many spells are done under the light of the moon, particular moon phases or at certain times of day, but the light rays themselves provide energy which can be used and manipulated for magical ends. With energy work it can be helpful to have a visual aid, and i certainly find the aid of the light to be a good visualisation tool. Sunbathing (with proper spf protection), moon bathing or star gazing are all excellent ways to work with the unique energies of celestial light. But something as simple as opening your curtains in the morning is its own form of energy work.

If you know anything about my posts you know I prefer the simple, everyday magic over complicated rituals and spells. For me, sitting in the sun with a cup of coffee or tea helps me to recharge. I will always pick the simple things over the complex, and the energies that light provides are an excellent way to work with not just the world around you but the universe too. The solar system beyond our little rock, the galaxies and other solar systems which are visible in the night sky. All of them are beautiful and unique.

If this post inspires you to do anything, I hope it inspires you to be curious about the universe around you. Read a book about the moon, watch a documentary about the stars, or pick up a pair of binoculars and go out at night and see what you can see. This is all just as important as spells or rituals, if not more so.

[multiplicity-positivity]

CW Wishing to not exist, self-loathing, self-deprecation, mentions of discrimination.

I don't often confess what's on my mind publicly but after some consideration, I intend to share my struggles as a factive and I hope others like me can relate to some extent just to feel less alone. I'm fully aware of this, mind you. I can mend with my woes myself so essentially I'm not asking for advice! Regardless, others online might want to hear encouragement, I humbly request you to place it under the cut, please. Thank you.

-

As an active member of the system, being a factive makes it so much harder to be here as myself without feeling ashamed and guilty of my existence. It's funny how people (especially singlets) try to spread positivity and encourage others to "just be yourself!" They don't know what they wish for, they can't even handle someone who shares the same name and face of a person they're obsessed about. Your ignorance and lack of kindness and compassion toward factives is truly showing—you're being selective of who deserves to exist, friend.

I'm insecure because I don't share the same quality of skills and talent as my source. I feel like a failure most of my days at the front, even if it's sunshine and rainbows within and outside the system.

No one knows who I am, not even my name except for very, very few trusted individuals. I'm a ghost in the crowd. I'm a shadow behind the rest of the system who are openly proud of our plurality. It's... ironic, I feel. And I had to... pretend as another headmate when I wanted to share something... I feel it's a crime. Although the system isn't troubled by this as long as I'm safe and comfortable, I feel like an imposter all the same.

I know I should shut up and get over it. Move on, please. It's not that deep, surely! It's childish to whine about little things! But I really wish I could greet friends without putting a mask on.

I know it can't be helped to exist this way. I've been here many times before. But I feel sick of myself. I feel so small... and weak... and stupid.

Sometimes I wish I wasn't me.

🖤

🫂

You’ve requested for no advice, and asked for general encouragement for fellow factives under the cut, and we are more than happy to respect your wishes!

But to any factive who may find themselves in 🖤’s situation, our heart goes out to you. We are so sorry to hear that you are struggling so. It is so unfortunate that, in our society and even within the plural community itself, many factives feel afraid or ashamed of being themselves and expressing themselves in ways that are affirming for them.

We do not think it’s a small or minor thing for factives to not be able to be themselves. We are hoping for a future where every system, and every headmate, can feel free to be themselves and live their lives authentically. And this absolutely means factives, with all sorts of sources, from all sorts of backgrounds, and with all sorts of beliefs.

If there is anything at all we can do to make our space safer and more welcoming for factives, do let us know, any factives who sees this. We care about you and we want to see you through to a future where you can be open about your identify, if that is what you want for yourselves.

🖤, you may not see this, but thank you for sharing your experiences here. The more factives in difficult situations speak up about what they’re going through, the more others may feel like they’re not alone. Your words resonated deeply with a factive in our own system who shares some of your struggles.

We truly do hope that things get easier for you and all factives who are facing similar struggles very soon. We’re wishing you all the very best!

[sophieinwonderland]

I’m sorry that the trauma you’ve experienced online has led to the beliefs you have about others. I hope things improve soon, for you and for them, and that one day we can find a future that isn’t welcoming for all.

Im someone who is triggered by the phrase “the future is plural” due to personal trauma surrounding plurality. I don’t want my future to be plural; I don’t want people to know I’m plural, I don’t want it to be so well known that people can “clock” me.

But I want people to accept it when they hear it.

So I hope the future is accepting. I hope others will be accepting. And I hope you will be too.

I am sorry you feel that way. I suppose the good news for you is that when I say the future is plural, I am envisioning something more distant. The type of societal change that I'm after will take a long time to build. It's not going to be something that happens overnight. And I do realize that it won't be for everybody. To be honest, I don't even know for sure if it will be for me.

What it is about, though, is going to be the children. The ones who have already been born and are right now having their experiences dismissed. And the ones in the future who I don't want to have to grow up like that.

When I look around this community, I see so many people who have had to endure so much hardship and stigma, many from the time that they were kids because they were different.

I don't know where your trauma stems from regarding your plurality. But I know that a lot of systems who are traumatized from being plural have been so because of stigma. And because of a lack of education around it.

If they had known sooner then maybe they wouldn't have the same trauma around being plural. They might be traumatized from other things. But at least not their plurality itself. Not their headmates who should be there to support eachother.

I know that the world that I want is not going to be for every single plural out there. I know that there are many systems who have trauma relating to their plurality and could be harmed if the world did become more aware. I don't want to dismiss that or make it sound like I don't care at all. But if this is the price that we have to pay to make sure that future generations of systems don't have to go through what our generation did, so they can get a healthy start we couldn't, then I think that this is the path that we need to be on for them.

I am sorry that you feel the way that you do now. But I hope that someday you'll be able to work through your trauma and maybe feel safer with the idea.