#these also indicate what happen to all of them post canon. some are very apparent some are implied

[sallytwo]

wanted to showcase some of the major differences between parousia characters first appearance vs. designs later in the story. these are reflective of their season 3 or post canon appearances !

i’ve put a lot of thought into all of these, down to the littlest details, so please take a closer look :)

[fangirleaconmigo]

for 'I can't believe it's canon', what about Jaskier/Dandelion's youthful looks? I know it's common fanon to make him at least part elf or fae or some other type of creature to explain the longevity, but i think in canon he's just like that? Babyfaced?

Hello dear! Ok, so,

Dandelion's looks and longevity/(and potential elven lineage) in the books, now with English and original Polish versions.

Alright, in order to answer this ask, I conferred with the wonderful and helpful @cherrypoison1889, who is Polish and has the books and is willing to indulge my obsessive absurdity.

(In my post about Geralt and Religion, I put out a request for any Polish fan of the books who wouldn't mind me bothering them with silly and ridiculous questions occasionally to get in touch. Cherry was kind enough to dm me.)

Basically, my meta has powered up. XD I now have a partner in crime. I am going to include our conversations about the words used in the original Polish and in the English translation to describe Dandelion.

We are just having very silly fun here, this isn't academic or anything pls my god, if you want academic or authoritative consult a doctor (phd in languages and whatnot). This is just fun, that's all.

Ok, so we know Dandelion looks young for his age.

In The Blood of Elves, which takes place AFTER the first two short story collections, Djikstra says that Dandelion looks like he is in his late twenties, even though he is in his late thirties. Here is what he says.

"...I know you're almost forty, look almost thirty, think you're just over twenty, and act as though you're barely ten."

So he looks a good ten years younger than he is and This is in Blood of Elves, which for TWN fans is around S2.

We also know he is a 'pretty boy'.

Dandelion is called pretty, by the narrative and other characters.

When Angoulême is being interrogated in The Tower of Swallows, and she is asked who Geralt is traveling with, she describes Dandelion like this....

"...a comely fellow called Dandelion, who's a troubadour, and carries a lute."

So she uses the term comely, which in English is typically usually used to describe women. I think that's the first time I've heard that word used to describe an adult man. Here's how Oxford dictionary defines it:

Comely: pleasant to look at; attractive (typically used of a woman).

So to me, this implies a pretty boy and yes the baby face.

I asked Cherry about what the Polish word is, and here is their answer:

Angouleme calls Jaskier "Przystojniak" in Polish, which is colloquial of Handsome Fellow (see also the word Przystojny, which means Handsome). This word is generally used only to describe men, but has been, in the past, also applied to women

So, there is some subtle gender-y stuff going on in that translation, but either way, he is considered good looking.

Then I asked Cherry about whether Dandelion is really often mistaken for an elf. There is a passage in the English translation that suggests that he is, but the wording in English is a bit ambiguous and slightly awkward.

In the process, Cherry and I found that there is a word in that section that changes pretty significantly in translation, suggesting again that he is very pretty.

Dandelion and longevity or elven lineage:

As far as his longevity, there is never at indication that he is part elf except that sometimes he is mistaken for an elf. The English translation implies that this is because of his style, but the original Polish implies it is his pretty face as well.

In Baptism of Fire, Geralt and Dandelion are in a forest, caught in a thunderstorm. They happen near a group of men who are waiting to meet elves and the men call to them:

"Over here, Master Elves!"

Geralt is not surprised by this mistake, as visibility is low, and they are both wrapped in grey elven mantels. Also, apparently, this is a regular occurrence for Dandelion. The book says:

"As far as the foppish Dandelion was concerned, he was regularly mistaken for an elf or a half-elf, particularly since he had begun wearing his hair shoulder-length and taken up the habit of occasionally curling it with tongs."

Ok, so, the English translation uses the phrase 'as far as...Dandelion was concerned', which could mean two different things. It could mean "regarding Dandelion," or "according to Dandelion." So I asked Cherry what it says in Polish.

fangirleaconmigo

So that phrase in english could basically say that dandelion WAS regularly mistaken for an elf

OR OR OR

it could mean that he CLAIMS he is regularly mistaken for an elf

cherrypoison1889

So, in Polish it is that Dandelion is often mistaken for an elf or half-elf.

fangirleaconmigo

ok, so it isn't that he claims it, but that he IS mistaken for an elf.

ok perfect. thank you.

cherrypoison1889

As in, it's other's opinion that he looks like an elf

Then, Cherry asked me about the word foppish, and we realized that the original word in Polish has quite different connotations!

Foppish, in English, generally refers to a man who is "concerned with one's clothes and appearance in an affected and excessive way." (Oxford dictionary)

So, an English speaker sees this word as a commentary on Dandelion's vanity and clothing. But actually the Polish word is different. Here is what Cherry said:

cherrypoison1889

In Polish it's "Gładysz", which means someone with a smooth, unblemished visage (see also the word Gładki, which means smooth)

fangirleaconmigo

the word they translated to foppish?

cherrypoison1889

Yep, that's the word. So, 1 count for Dandy being called a pretty pretty boy <3

fangirleaconmigo

haha that's awesome thank you

cherrypoison1889

So in english, you could say he's described slightly more pejoratively?

fangirleaconmigo

foppish it's less about his attractiveness and more about his own vanity or obsession with appearance.

just stylish and vain basically

you could see that negatively, as interest in appearance is often looked down upon in men, (eta: unfairly of course, in macho cultures, not by me obviously) but not everyone does see it as negative. but yes, it has more potential for negative implications

cherrypoison1889

Just looked it up in a dictionary, apparently Gładysz also means someone who is nice, i.e. kind

So in Polish it's just he's a sweet pretty boy uwu

fangirleaconmigo

ah interesting! so the original word has better implications all around

that's so cute

cherrypoison1889

Baby boy baby

So, there is no conclusive evidence for Dandelion being part elven, other than just the fact that he is mistaken for one. He is a pretty pretty boy who looks young for his age.

But since he looks like an elf, there's a bit of fertile ground to headcanon it. It's not canon but it's a reasonable use or extrapolation of canon! Would he even know if he were like a quarter elf? Who knows? We don't even know where Lettenhove is. Go crazy!

So, TWN accidentally not aging him turned out to be not too 'off canon'. And it is no surprise that he is often head-canoned as part elf.

Actually I think Hexer actually makes him part elf as well. Hell, I make him part elf in most of my fics.

So there's no canon evidence? But it's not an outrageous thing to headcanon or anything.

THANK YOU CHERRY FOR DOING THIS WITH ME. IT'S SO FUN BEING A NERD WITH YOU ABOUT TRANSLATIONS.

[logicheartsoul]

This meta has been a few years coming, but recently inspired due to: 1) Sian (@siancore) mentioning and incorporating into her amazing fic End of the World the moment that this meta is about, and 2) talking to Mexi (@thatmexisaurusrex) about this and then when she made that "share your fave sambucky moments that are canon" post, I knew this needed to finally been written and have its own proper post.

(Also, to @elektraking who wanted to be pinged when I finally wrote this, I finally did it!)

This post is long and image heavy but I didn't want to put it all under a read more.

We all know this scene from Infinity War, it's been all over people's dashes and giffed and etc etc. We also know it's a pretty quick scene, not necessarily a blink and you miss it one, but because it moves pretty quickly. If you're not paying too much attention to everyone else in the background, things will slip by.

However, watching things in 4K can really make things interesting because 1) you can zoom in and 2) you can zoom in and see some pretty clear detail, like the fact Sam and Bucky are looking at each other during this entire scene.

You can see here that everyone present except Sam isn't really watching Steve and Bucky interact -- either they're blocked from of the camera (Rhodey, Ayo, Bruce) or they're not looking at them (Nat has her eyes closed, T'Challa is looking at the side).

Sam is clearly in Bucky's line of sight, even if Bucky is looking at Steve (because we know Steve is moving closer to him and is about to talk to him)

On zoom in, we can see Sam is not zoned out, this is a very focused look at what is happening in front of him.

The next moment is where Steve goes in for the hug, but during this hug, a couple of things happen: 1) Sam moves closer towards them a bit, 2) he and Bucky actually DO stare at each other over Steve's shoulder

And for more than a few moments. Sort of significant if you think about the fact that Sam and Bucky seem to communicate a lot with nonverbal looks between each other. (We see this a few times in Civil War, and then later in this movie, but that will be even more apparent as fact in Endgame and, of course, TFATWS.)

And perhaps this could be passed off as "looking at each other coz we're looking in the same direction" except for the fact that Bucky makes a deliberate look at Sam when we get the pan over to his face.

When Steve backs away from the hug, we see Sam is still looking at Bucky, so we can assume during the entire exchange when the camera goes towards Bucky, Sam is still doing that.

Which leads us to when the camera pans over to Bucky.

(Yeah, yeah the cropping on this is kinda weird for me, but I wanted to make sure you could see his face.)

Steve proceeds to ask Bucky how he's doing. And of course, Bucky gives some kind of cutesy quip that fills space and time before going to the next big plot thing.

It's very interesting that Bucky pauses right after saying "uh, not bad", but as indicated by the arrow I put in the gif, he's staring in the exact direction where Sam would be. Because if you notice in the screenshots before this moment, above, when Bucky and Steve break away from the hug, Sam is in Bucky's line of sight but somewhat to the side, the same direction as the glance in the gif.

Now, as we know, the others are barely watching Steve and Bucky's interaction except Sam, who's still watching with focused attention.

If you were standing where Sam is standing, watching all of this, hearing Steve asking Bucky, "how's it going" and he responds "uh, not bad," and pauses WHILE looking at a glance in your direction, most people would consider that a moment.

And why wouldn't it be a moment? No one else is paying attention to Bucky or Steve except Sam. Bucky and Sam have before this comment were looking at each other when Steve brings in Bucky to a hug. Hell, Bucky could have just said "for the end of the world" without looking sideways and the scene would've worked as intended.

Yet, he gives that glance, and has a smile as he says, "not bad". While looking at Sam. It's so quick, yet it says so much. And considering how we know it's canon for them to be able to speak volumes by just sharing glances at each other (hello Sam looking at Bucky during Endgame), why wouldn't that apply here too? Because the glance wasn't really needed if you think about it.

And of course, Bucky deflects with his "for the end of the world" coz 1) he doesn't want Steve to try to make more small talk and 2) world ending shit is happening, they do NOT have time to stand around, they need to coordinate and they're on a time table. Because we all know Steve, he would want to know the reason why Bucky is actually smiling probably one of the first genuine smiles he's given on screen since TWS.

Anyway, we all know the rest: the plot moves forward, Sam and Bucky end up standing close to each other to witness Thanos' forces trying to get through Wakanda's shields, and then they end up being blipped.

Still, while a short, quick moment, on closer inspection, a lot can be said. Another in a line of Sam and Bucky's "saying things with a look" moments, but an underappreciated one.

[spiderqueenpc]

The case for Kris Dreemurr's monsterhood

Last year, I made a reskin mod for Deltarune called Kris is the GOAT that "makes Kris a goat monster", as the summary states. Today, however, I want to show you why I believe that the canonical version of Kris is already a monster- just a human-bodied one.

Part 1: A crash course on otherkinity

(If you already have a decent understanding of real-life nonhuman identity, feel free to skip this part. This is for those who are new to the topic.)

Otherkin are individuals whose species identity is incongruent with their physical body. In real life, this definition is simplified to "identifying as nonhuman", but the broader definition is more helpful for talking about the Deltarune universe. Like, Toriel also identifies as nonhuman, but that's obviously not the same situation.

Some otherkin are fine with their bodies as they are, while others experience species dysphoria and desire to species transition. I believe Kris fits into the second category.

Different people ascribe different origins to their otherkin identities, some spiritual and some secular. There's a lot, but all you need to know for this post is that imprinting is a very common one.

Part 2: The evidence

Kris was literally raised by monsters, which is the prime condition for imprinting to occur. As I established in part 1, imprinting is a common cause of othekinity.

So we've established that it wouldn't be surprising for Kris to be otherkin. Now for the evidence that they are:

First, the horns headband dialogue. We've all seen it, but let's talk about it. Here's a refresher on exactly what Toriel says:

So, when Kris was a child, they asked when their horns would grow in. After that, their parents bought them a headband with horns on it so they wouldn't feel bad about not being able to grow horns. Kris apparently wore it for months, and the wording here implies that the reason they stopped wearing it was because it got lost, not because they actively chose to. It's likely that had it not gotten lost, they would have continued to wear it until it didn't physically fit on their head anymore.

That does not sound like the behavior of a child who sees themself as completely human. I also wear horns and trust me, even small ones can be surprisingly inconvenient. You would have to really care about having them to be willing to wear them all the time.

But that was when they were a child, you could argue. People change as they grow up. Is there any evidence that Kris doesn't see themself as a human now?

Well yes, yes there is! Here's the second big piece of evidence: the "How to Care for a Human" flavor text.

Some people have interpreted this text as Kris hating humans, but nothing in the flavor text actually suggests that. Kris doesn't slam the book shut violently, they don't throw it, nothing like that. Nothing that indicates anger. They just close it quickly. That indicates discomfort, but not anger. (Borrowed observation from JaruJaruJ on YouTube.)

Instead, what I believe is happening here is that Kris is uncomfortable with the reminder that they look like a human, that the body they're in makes others perceive them as a human. And perhaps worst of all, that their own mother perceives them as one.

In real life, nonhuman folks are pretty used to constant reminders that "this is what a human body looks like". But for Kris, who lives in a small town full of monsters, who possibly hasn't seen another human-bodied individual in person in years, that's not the case. It'd feel a whole lot worse for them, hence the reaction.

Before I move on to anticipating counterarguments, I would also like to address one more piece of evidence that is less direct: this flavor text for the mirror.

The primary meaning of this is pretty clear: It's about how Kris' body is, at the moment, really just a puppet for the player. However, I think this line of flavor text could potentially have a double meaning, with the second meaning being "this body's appearance doesn't represent you". It makes sense both ways and it certainly wouldn't be out of line with Toby's writing for a line to have an extra layer to it.

Part 3: "But what about..."

"...the fact that they don't react when the other characters call them human?"

If they are a monster they're obviously not out about it, so they're not going to correct anyone. Additionally, it's possible that they haven't fully realized why they feel the way they do, or that they don't have the words to articulate it.

And it's worth remembering that we rarely get to see how Kris feels about anything unless whoever we're talking to actively comments on their tone or expression. Nobody has ever commented on their reaction to being called a human. It wouldn't be surprising if they're hiding their discomfort.

"...the Prophecy?"

Alright, this is basically a whole 'nother theory. I'll try to make it quick.

I believe that the human in the prophecy is not Kris, but is instead the player soul. The major points of evidence for this are:

-We originally weren't meant to be controlling Kris at all.

-The world is only said to be covered in darkness when we hit quit instead of retry, not when Kris dies.

-Despite the fact that Kris is said to be the only one who can seal the fountains, when they get sealed Kris just kinda... stands there while the soul does a thing.

This isn't the only way to explain how the Prophecy and Kris' monsterhood can co-exist, but it's (imo) the most elegant and plausible, so I won't make this post longer than it already is.

//

In conclusion: Kris clearly has some complex feelings about their species and I believe that otherkinity is the most straightforward explanation. Thank you very much for reading. Please feel free to share your thoughts about this theory, just keep it respectful.

[shipcestuous]

*eyes Lucifer/Charlie posts with interest* You know what a really interesting thing about their dynamic is? It technically has two songs dedicated to it, though they don't sing both of them together. More Than Anything is beautiful and full of feels... but there's also Hell's Greatest Dad, which I think could be read as rather suggestive, considering the context around it.

Lucifer and Charlie start out the series as pretty much estranged, and the original pilot posted online seemed to indicate the last time they'd spoken in person had gone very badly, with Lucifer perhaps belittling Charlie's idea of rehabilitating sinners, or at least her ability to do it... something Charlie's VERY keen on, as Hell is overpopulated and, to keep down their numbers and prevent them from rebelling, every year Heaven sends an army to exterminate as many demons as possible, and she's had to helplessly witness this massacre over and over, suffering deeply for it and eventually concluding she'd solve the overpopulation problem by redeeming as many sinners as she could and sending them to Heaven. So, yeah, not exactly a case of a child going through some silly phase and their parent being unimpressed with it. Some even started fearing Lucifer would turn out to be a crappy father, or even an abusive one, because of that.

However, the series on Prime confirmed that Lucifer actually loves Charlie a lot AND loves being around her. It's just that he, too, used to be an idealist who wanted to change things for the better, and Heaven punished him and his wife, Lilith, by confining them in Hell. Lilith apparently didn't give up and tried to empower demons, but Lucifer, who had his ability to see the good in mankind taken from him as well, fell into a deep depression, which seems to have made him unable to be the present, active parent he wanted to be for Charlie, leading to a growing distance between father and daughter. Lilith mysteriously disappearing seven years before the start of the series probably didn't help either character's mental state or their relationship, too. But if Lucifer doesn't believe in Charlie's hotel, it's really because he's terrified that something terrible will happen to her if she keeps fighting for her ideals, and wants to protect her from that, having gone through it himself. When Charlie's girlfriend, Vaggie, convinces her to try and get him onboard again because they REALLY need help, the call when she invites him over is awkward on both sides, but Lucifer accepts right away because he's just overjoyed that Charlie's speaking to him again... to the point he even overthinks something as simple as how to answer the phone!

Anyway, that's how Lucifer comes to the Hazbin Hotel and meets the rest of the gang... including Alastor. Alastor is an Overlord, a powerful demon most people know better than to cross, and actually rose through the ranks by getting rid of other Overlords, showing just how dangerous he is. But Overlords are still much lower in Hell's hierarchy than Lucifer, the literal King of Hell, so he's initially pretty dismissive of Alastor, who... does NOT take it well, to put it mildly. Cue some very fun passive-aggressive bickering, which turns into a musical duel.

Now, one fun thing about this is that the online pilot had led many people to ship Alastor and Charlie, as it had Alastor charm his way into letting Charlie help him with the hotel in a rather pushy way and despite her initial distrust, all while a certain animosity built up between him and Vaggie, who is, again, Charlie's canon gf. To me the Alastor VS Vaggie seems to have been toned down a lot in the series, and Alastor's VA sees him as asexual, with some Valentine's Day merch suggesting he might be aromantic as well, but ofc the Chalastor ship is still a thing. Except... in Hell's Greatest Dad, Alastor doesn't deliberately piss off Lucifer by hitting on his daughter, but by trying to position herself as her new dad! He uses the way HE has been supporting Charlie and her goal from the beginning to try and make Lucifer look either uncaring or weak, looks right at Lucifer while suggesting to Charlie that she could call him dad, and, when Lucifer emphasizes that he and Charlie actually ARE family, argues that sometimes your biological family is a disappointment and you should rely on the family you chose for yourself.

The duel keeps escalating, with Lucifer becoming increasingly flustered and angry, until they're forcibly interrupted by a new arrival. After that, during More Than Anything, Charlie opens her heart to Lucifer, explaining that it's the stories Lucifer told her as a child that gave her the courage to do what's right and pursue her dreams against all odds. Lucifer understands that he can't protect Charlie to the point of suffocating her goodness and bravery, and that wouldn't work anyway because she's a rebellious dreamer just like he used to be, but he must support her and defend her against those wishing to destroy her and her goal, and finally, they reconcile.

... not before Lucifer meets Vaggie and goes "Oh, you like girls?! Me, too! We have so much in common!" Which is such a fun little moment and can be interpreted in so many ways. Is he awkwardly trying to show Charlie that ofc he accepts her sexuality? Is he relieved that she is NOT with Alastor, this shady guy he really doesn't like AND who could have been trying to steal Charlie from him by being both a bf AND a new father figure for her? Is he trying to signal that he and Charlie could share their common interest by having a threesome with Vaggie? ... okay, probably NOT that last one, but it could a fun idea. XD Not one very likely to go anywhere, as Vaggie has been stated to be a lesbian, but still.

Oh, another musical thing! Before a big battle against Heaven's army in the last episode (where Lucifer appears at the last moment to help his daughter against her enemies!), Charlie and Vaggie sing a brief romantic duet together, where they reaffirm their love for each other and Vaggie reassures Charlie that, no matter how things will turn out in the end, she's already done so much for her people and changed lives... but it's actually their own reprise of More Than Anything! Which actually fits rather well, as Vaggie is another character who decided to dedicate herself to protecting Charlie and helping her make her dreams come true. (And also, she's an angel who was beaten up, mutilated, and left bleeding and in pain in Hell when she realized she felt pity for the sinners and couldn't keep killing them. Kinda like Lucifer, the angel who wanted to change things and paid for that... I may be going overboard with these parallels, but they're so much fun!)

Hi! I'm the same anon who wrote about Charlie, Lucifer, and Lucifer getting extremely jealous at the thought of someone stealing his baby girl away from him... I mean, Hell's Greatest Dad. One, I actually just remembered that Lucifer and Charlie have a third song that explains their changing dynamic very well, Finale. It's an ensemble number, but it's kicked off by Charlie feeling dejected and guilty and Lucifer, who knows a few things about feeling like that, telling her not to lose hope but keep fighting, because she's already done something incredible and now she just needs to keep believing in herself and trusting in her family and friends to help her. It's so sweet and moving and I have NO IDEA how it slipped my mind! Two, I remembered that by watching this video about Lucifer by Georgia Dow. It's mainly about how his depression is portrayed and how he deals with it, with explanations and advice for viewers who might going through or witnessing loved ones going through something similar, but it also says some things about Lucifer's relatuonship wih Charlie and how it evolves that I think really illuminate just how good and rewarding to watch their dynamic is:

I feel like I know so much more about Charlie and Lucifer's relationship now. I'm glad Lucifer turned out to be a better dad than it seemed at first as if he might be, and I love his jealousy!

Thank you so much for sharing all of these thoughts with us!

[aikoiya]

Ancient Vlad actually calls Canon Vlad a ‘Fruitloop’… Canon Danny + Dark Dan + Dani are all laughing hysterically!… How would Canon Vlad react? 🥣

Dude, thank you for the enthusiasm, but just because I don't answer within an hour doesn't mean that I missed it.

I see you.

But, I could only see this happening after extended exposure to Danny & his friends.

Otherwise, he'd likely call him something like a ghoulish old fream. (A fream being a 1950-60s expression basically refering to social outsiders, misfits, or losers. Restricted to males.)

But, otherwise? Yeah, I can see it.

Also, something very interesting that I recently learned about the Salem Witch Trials of 1692. Apparently out of the over 200 people accused of witchcraft only about 20 were executed over the course of a single month. I think that what got people to wonder about the morality of it was that all these people were killed at around the same time so it felt like a lot more people than it actually was. Though many did die in jail while awaiting trial.

Also, America didn't really burn those accused of witchcraft, as that was more of a European thing & even there, the bodies were typically only burned after the accused were either hanged or beheaded in order to prevent post-humous sorcery. I say most because there were some who were still very much alive when they were burned. Rather most in America were just hanged at the gallows, while others, were committed to swim. Which means that they were dunked into a body of water to see whether they would sink or float. Evidently, sinking to the bottom indicated innocence while floating indicated being a witch. Which is just total & complete superstitious balderdash!

Then, there's Giles Corey, who was pressed to death via large stones.

The worst of the witch trials actually happened in Europe where around 50,000 people were executed for crimes of witchcraft between the 15-18 centuries.

I just thought that was interesting. Grim & horrible, but interesting to know.

There was, of course, a different & much more benign way to do this that, evidently, no one seemed to think of at the time. And that was simply having the witch eat of the bread of the sacrament, which I'd seen somewhere will kill the witch.

This is based on 1 Corinthians 11:27-32, "Whoever, therefore, eats the bread or drinks the cup of the Lord in an unworthy manner will be guilty concerning the body and blood of the Lord." Which, in this situation, I'm taking creative liberty with & saying that, within this fantasy world, it means that by eating of the body (the bread) while dispising the body (the church or Christ Himself), God will discipline them, quite painfully in fact.

And, in fact, that could well be how Vlad manages to get the townspeople to turn on whoever killed him, whether it be the pastor or some other figure we're going with.

After all, if this were true, then why wouldn't they be going this route since the only real victims in the use of such would be those who actively hate God. Unless, the entire Salem Witch Trials hysteria was orchestrated by actual, legit, human-sacrificing, God-hating witches who wanted to get as many people killed as absolutely possible without having to lift a real finger.

Which... in & of itself would be an extremely interesting twist. Horrific, but interesting.

DP Ask AU Masterlist

[relaxxattack]

hi im asking u this bc u seem to be bee duo enthusiast so

ive been calling c! beeduos relationship platonic because i thought that was what their cc’s said, and i thought they had said that they were uncomfortable with ppl shipping the characters. But ive seen a lot of posts that say their relationship is canonically romantic? and i absolutely do not want to come across as homophobic by watering down a mlm relationship to just friends because that happens so much in media so.

what is the canon state of their relationship / ur opinions on the platonic thibg

dont worry abt answering if u dont want to!! i see a lot of differing opinions and i trust yours :)

aw it’s totally fine, im flattered you asked me about this!

let me put it simply: it’s a whole mess, lol.

first im going to talk about what’s happened fandom-wide that caused differing opinions, and then i’ll explain my own opinion/interpretation. :]

(this got really fucking long im so sorry)

ranboo and tubbo initially proclaimed the relationship was romantic, specifically in argument with the wiki editors who had set it as platonic by default. (you can see this in the vod where they decide they’re canonically married— it’s very funny. chat tells them the marriage is already on the wiki, they check, tubbo is jokingly offended that it says platonic and asks if he needs to up the romance).

tubbo also makes jokes about adultry, which sort of implies the relationship is not necessarily a platonic one.

(theres definetly more in that stream alone but it’s been a long time since i watched it so i don’t remember a lot of it.)

the wiki, because of this, suffers from going back and forth on platonic and romantic, seemingly unsure where the joke ends and the canon begins, or if its canonically a joke! a mess, as you can already tell.

this gets more complicated as the marriage bit goes on: outsiders, such as phil and scott, both at one point say “platonic marriage”, which then ranboo and tubbo agree with. however, when chat asks them if they’re platonic, they say the opposite. so there is a lot of confusion there.

there’s also the difficulty of being able to tell streamers and characters apart. ranboo and tubbo both don’t like being shipped irl, and that’s their boundaries that shouldn’t be crossed. (they’re also minors, but tbh when they’re 18 in a year i will still be following their boundaries regardless of their legal age).

due to people not wanting to be accused of minor shipping, they started adding the platonic tone indicator to most of their drawings— basically a way of saying “no homo”. meanwhile, tubbo frequently on stream flirts with ranboo and makes quite a bit of nsfw comments towards him that are frankly hilarious.

this goes on for a while with nobody really sure what’s canon, but a lot of people assuming it’s probably platonic, until: the drama of the mods night. a few mods dmed all the wiki editors telling them ranboo wanted his canon character relationship officially set to platonic.

unfortunately for those mods; the very same day, a few hours later, ranboo on stream makes fun of puffy delivering him and tubbo “friendship flowers”. because, and i quote, “bruh. we’re literally married. this must be how the ancient greeks felt.”

in case you don’t know, the internet often jokes about how historians will call ancient greeks ‘very good friends’ when they are quite obviously gay. so in this context, ranboo is joking that people will call him and c!tubbo, who are married, “close friends”, when he doesn’t think they are.

basically, ranboo canonized romantic bee duo, the very same day the mods told everyone he’d wanted a platonic one.

chaos and drama immediately erupted everywhere. on tumblr, we were talking about how weird it was of his mods to do something like that without asking him first. we ALSO talked about how weird it was of them to assume that ranboo can’t make his own decisions, or assume teenagers cannot be in relationships without it being sexual. twitter did the same thing but in the opposite direction: called ranboo mods homophobic, or said they were mad ranboo felt pressured into making a romantic relationship canon ‘just so people could have mlm rep.’

i dont want to go into detail about the drama that happened that night because apparently official people follow me and i dont want to stir it up or have them come “clarify” things. im just saying what we talked about.

ranboo in typical ranboo fashion apologized quickly and seriously. he was deeply sorry for possibly offending anyone with how he’d portrayed his rp relationship with tubbo, and he also assured everyone the mod thing was just a miscommunication.

he said he would talk to tubbo and they’d decide once and for all whether it was platonic or romantic, and then announce so everyone would know.

it’s now been a few months and we've had no word from them on that development. we still have no clue.

-

now, here’s my opinion:

i want to take ranboos word for it that it was a miscommunication with his mods, but... we had it on good authority from people on the wiki team and people in the discord with the mods that (while it was happening) they were really going after the wiki admins, and also made some weird comments about it. that combined with the way ranboo seemingly had no clue (considering he canonized their romance that very same day).... it’s very. sus of the mods.

then there’s the canon we’ve got since then. although occasionally adults in the room have called it a “platonic marriage” and tubbo once (back when it first started) called it a “plankton tectonic” marriage, in roleplay it’s been... kind of not that. tubbo and ranboo make nsfw jokes about each other in character, and their characters also share a master bedroom and bed in the mansion. there's also the way c!tommy really thinks it’s a romance between them as well, and they agree with and play off that— for instance confirming that they “fell in love” when he asked, or ranboo confirming that they “make out on occasion”.

people will still put platonic on their art and posts, imo, because they’re worried about breaking ranboo and tubbo’s irl boundaries by looking like they ship them. or even just being accused of shipping real life minors. and that’s a valid fear to have.

the thing is though: c!bee duo are not cc!bee duo. they’re roleplay characters. cc!bee duo are not okay with being shipped, but they made their characters get canonically married, and call each other “husbands”. so it’s okay to write the word “husband” in your comic without adding “platonic” to it, i promise.

telling the ccs that their characters have to be platonic is... weird. it comes off as not only babying them, but also as saying teens can’t date without it being gross. which isn’t true.

(this is why seeing people overuse “platonic husband” so much bothers me. like, they ARE husbands. you can just say it. what are you trying to hide...?)

-

do i think they’re canonically romantic? ehh, its likely. it’s still okay to interpret them as platonic, because again, it’s hard to tell where jokes end and roleplay begins. like, maybe it’s jokes in the rp too, and c!bee duo are just friends. friends can and should be allowed to make jokes like that with each other! aro & ace marriages exist!

or, maybe it’s actually part of the rp, and they’re very much romantic. we don’t know!

some people say they could be a qpr (queerplatonic romance), which i could see. (a qpr is a relationship that fluctuates between, or can’t quite be sorted into, “romantic” and “platonic”. people in a qpr can do romantic things while having platonic feelings for each other). in my opinion this is a very valid interpretation as well!

-

CONCLUSION (sorry this got so long omfg):

are c!bee duo romantic?

its likely, but you can still interpret them however you like!

should i put /p on bee duo content?

ehhh? i find it annoying when it’s overused (as do others), but if you’re worried you can. its up to preference. putting it too much is weird though

should i put /p on things cc! bee duo do?

no. you’re not the one saying it so you can’t decide the tone tags for that. imagine you said something to your friend and a random stranger came up and was like “haha but that was /p right...?”

can i ship c!bee duo?

mmm. i’m not sure on this one. they are canonically married and very flirtatious, but the ccs don’t like being shipped and they’re close enough to being the ccs that actively shipping might be against boundaries.

can i treat c!bee duo as romantic?

yes. literally just don’t be weird about it. it’s not that hard! you can understand that two characters are husbands without making it weird

here’s the most important thing: boundaries. cc bee duo still haven’t told us what their preferences and canon is about this whole thing.

right now, i am assuming based on what they already show us they’re comfortable with, but! the second they give us any more info! all these opinions will change!

i am only going off what they do. i would never want to cross boundaries at all. i just wish they would make theirs a little more clear.

..... i hope that helped anon, i went way off the rails... i need to go to sleep.

[utilitycaster]

I find it interesting that people see Ashton and Laudna and are like "They must be in pain all the time and are suffering" because Ashton and Laudna have the physical scars of their suffering. They are sympathetic to them. But they do not afford the same sympathy to Imogen, who is also suffering. It's not visible with her, so therefore, even though she has to actively repress other peoples thoughts and doesn't really get much sleep, she be fine Fine and therefore is OK. When she is very much Not Fine and Not Ok, just practiced at having to deal with it every damn day (at least, that's how I have interpreted Laura's RP. Please correct me if I am wrong).

I think you are correct about Laura's RP - it's quite obvious that Imogen struggles a lot with her powers. While I haven't seen it as much lately, there was also a lot of focus early on about Ashton, with a lot of headcanons regarding disability that I haven't seen as much lately - possibly because there's been nothing confirmed in canon - and it's true that the character design probably contributed to that.

Here's the thing though: early on? People loved focusing on poor Imogen and her headaches and how tiring it is for her to be around people and oh won't Laudna kiss it better...until Imogen got mad at Laudna. (And, to a lesser extent, when Imogen got mad at FCG, because that set off an alarm that Imogen was going to be played as a person with feelings and thoughts who might deviate from the set plan they had in their head for her).

I think a lot of people have decided who their favorite character is, and they pick that for all kinds of reasons. The problem is many of those people then say "my favorite character is correct, all the time, and here's the character who should be their romantic partner, and whether or not I have any scrap of sympathy for other characters is entirely conditional on whether they are worshiping the ground on which my favorite character walks and only serving my favorite character's story." Design doesn't enter into it. Backstory gets thrown out the window. In the end, that is their only motivator.

I realize how incredibly cynical this sounds but I have, on some level, done the math. I've spent all day saying "ok, so you're saying a warlock who has undergone severe trauma may have made made a pact under circumstances in which they could not freely give consent, and they have complicated feelings about this, and you are citing that as your reasoning for why they are the most sympathetic person here. Cool. So where's your meta about how hard things were for Fjord?" And notably, no one has taken me up on it, because they don't have it, because the facts don't matter. And it's not limited to that; I've been using Fjord as an example both because he often got a very raw deal from the fandom and because of the very obvious warlock parallels, but like, people were mad that time was spent on Keyleth's Aramente (because they didn't like Keyleth), or that the Mighty Nein didn't drop everything to take Caleb to Duasad Keef (a person only revealed at the time in the Explorer's Guide to Wildemount).

If it the reason were that Imogen doesn't have physical markers of her pain (which...in and of itself is not a great way to be given the sheer number of not-readily-apparent mental and chronic illnesses that do not have clear visible indicators), then you'd think the response to Imogen, you know, literally waking up gasping and crying from nightmares would serve the same purpose as a physical scar, and that would be taken into account. But it's not. Because it's not about who's experienced pain or trauma, visible or no. It's barely connected to what's happening onscreen after the first few episodes when they imprint on this character like a baby chick who sends dumb anon messages. It's "she is disagreeing with Laudna and pulling focus from Laudna and therefore she is bad."

Here is the thing in the end: the post I made that kicked this all off ended with a follows: "these [Imogen and Laudna] are two fully realized people with feelings and priorities of their own." And people found that inherently invalidating, because they are threatened by the idea that Imogen is a fully realized character with feelings and priorities of her own, because then she can be a fully realized character with priorities separate from Laudna's. She can be a character with feelings that are not positive towards Laudna. She can be a character who gets angry at Laudna. And they hate that, and it's that simple.

[kryptoniancape]

This is probably as good a day as any for me to finally materialize these thoughts that have been gnawing at me since the end of April. This is going to be messy because I’m writing it in between innings of my softball game.

What is the likelihood we get some form of canon by the end of the series?

When this all started, the crackhead in me really had to wonder, what if this is all a sick ruse to cover up a fake out?

As much as I regard that notion as the chaotic timeline, I think those theories were actually fair considering the very odd incompetence that we’re observing in marketing surrounding the final season, and just, franchise direction in general. Of course, the idea that this is all some conspiracy for next gen clout becomes more favourable than the less spectacular reality, which is just, people in the positions of creative authority at AMC not valuing their characters and stories as vehicles for great art, as much as their fans.

I do think it’s possible we could see some form of fake out death in the final act. It could be Carol, or Daryl (since tracking indicates a potential rescue mission) as an easy means for propelling their development. It could also be Judith, based on the set photos where she is apparently injured. Either way, I’m almost certain there are going to be a lot of major and minor character deaths to clean up the inflated cast, and go for basic shock value in classic TWD fashion, so at least one fake out for a major character could balance all that tragedy.

I feel certain evidence says Carol won’t die. However, I have a feeling we could be looking at Rosita, Aaron, and/or Gabriel biting the bullet. These would be the characters that need to go imo, in order to justify any narrative where Carol becomes leader of Alexandria and stays behind, which is what I assume they will try and do. Daryl and Carol would be next in line for leadership in the absence of these figures in AZ. At the very least, I like the idea of everybody finally looking up to and appreciating Carol’s contributions.

I actually believe they are going to give us canon in some capacity. If they don’t, several chunks of several seasons of storytelling will have amounted to a complete waste, including the bizarre separation of their two leads for two whole blocks. Since s7 I haven’t underestimated this show’s capacity for wasted potential, in fact, I routinely bank on it. But to me, fully wasting Caryl will be next level failure for AMC. They really should have gone canon in s10, to give time for the relationship to materialize, but I always suspected they would procrastinate out of fear of writing mediocrity after so many years of anticipation. I think losing their planned season 12 probably played into why the current season is so unhinged.

There are frankly too many cues pointing to a Daryl and Carol romance to just ignore. Their last scene with the lunch date in particular seems to be spelling it out. Even the 11C sneak peek they gave us juxtaposes Daryl and Carol relative to their relationship to the Grimes kids. I think we’ll see lots of solo Caryl moments that allow them to emotionally unpack, and just maybe, bring them together before the battle with Commonwealth peaks, with the meat and potatoes of the relationship happening during the time jump—a lacklustre consolation to a post-war honeymoon road trip any way you slice it. This is why I’m inclined to think they will get the lead on Rick post time jump. It could at least open the floor for some emotion heavy scenes between Caryl as they have to very suddenly deal with this news that is both magnificent and damning to their present situation. This is how I presume they will attempt to string their fans further—not with no canon (as we’ve long worn that out) but with their first “reunion” as an actual item. I don’t want to comment on the infamous wedding theory at all tbh, but where I brushed it off before as being kind of corny, maybe it will prove to be the only thread they can utilize to tie Caryl together in a way that is unmoved by whatever life has to say about it.

The thing I hate most of all about this whole situation is how it’s only made me anticipate 11C more. Lmfao. The cruel irony, and inevitable emotional damage to my person is palpable. Once I’ve pledged my love for the characters, I have to see through the whole shitty shebang to the end. Though there will continue to be no orthodox viewership from me until season 11 proves it can entertain me. Their perception of what constitutes thrilling storytelling these days is just sad. These bold claims they’re making about the “humanity” of the ending are either going to have to smack their viewers like lightning, or be gaffed at by reviewers like typical TWD self flagellation. It’s depressing to think that they’ve already shit the bed, so for now I still find it plausible to follow the motions, with my cynicism in my back pocket. But I genuinely think there may be something of substance that can still surprise us beneath the horizon.

[veliseraptor]

Okay I'm new to this fandom and I'm a bit confused. Did Xue Yang and Meng Yao know each other? Did Meng Yao free him?👀Do xue yang know he has a parentage that dabbled in demonic cultivation?

congratulations, anon! you have hit the nail on the head of one of my perennial aggravations about cql-canon specific details, which is to say ‘what the hell is the deal supposed to be with meng yao and xue yang in qinghe?’

there is no real indication that they might have known each other except some meaningful side-eyes going on that don’t make a lot of sense in context other than, maybe, pre-flagging the idea that meng yao is ~problematic~ and ~untrustworthy~ I guess? (which, ask me how I feel about the idea that everything jin guangyao does forever is bad and sinister, regardless of timeline, effect, or motivation). but there’s no real, substantive indication (up until the empathy flashback in ep 41, I’ll get there) that they are familiar with each other, or that they actually do any collaborating at that point.

you could definitely headcanon them as knowing each other previously based on the fact that they both grew up in less than ideal circumstances, shall we say, but I don’t think there’s any evidence for it in-text other than aforementioned meaningful side-eyes. in fact, canonically we know where they both grew up locationwise and it wasn’t in the same place. but like, seriously.

(and holy shit this got long, I’ll spare you all with a read more. also: I have broken my usual ‘referring to jin guangyao as jin guangyao always’ rule for the sake of this post given that it is specifically about the era where he is going by meng yao, but it did feel really weird.)

speaking specifically with what we see in text (in episode 10), we see meng yao argue against executing xue yang, but only after wei wuxian has done so first. the next explicit link between them is when meng yao leaves the fight between wen zhuliu and nie mingjue saying that he’s going to go check on xue yang; following that, we’re told that xue yang has escaped and meng yao claims he saw the captain free him.

which is, considering the fact that he’s killing the captain at the time, a highly suspect statement to make.

there’s no reason for meng yao to be working with xue yang at this point! there’s just not! it doesn’t make sense for him even from a purely self-interested standpoint and, again, at this point in canon there’s no actual reason to believe that they have any prior familiarity.

(’but lise what about the flashback-’ yes I’ll get there.)

if you want my personal reading, which I think is compatible with the text as we see it, it goes like this:

1. xue yang quickly notices meng yao as a potentially interesting person. I don’t think it’s about seeing him as an ally or knowing him from anything beforehand - I think it’s about seeing him as interesting and kind of funny.

2. meng yao registers that there’s a distinct possibility of nie mingjue dying and/or the wen sect attacking the nie in force and decides to short-circuit that by just freeing xue yang himself, because he knows nie mingjue won’t do it but if xue yang’s gone then that (at least temporarily) solves their wen problem.

my evidence for this is based around the timing of when meng yao leaves to “check on” xue yang (mid-fight, specifically after wen zhuliu, inarguably a greater threat, takes over from wen chao), the fact that he looks definitely concerned when he does so, and the fact that, given where he is at this point, letting xue yang out otherwise makes no sense.

this does not strike me as the face of a person who is a-plottin some sinister business, and this isn’t a face he’s making at anyone, either; this is pure ‘ah fuck this ain’t good’ expression.

(yes, yes, I know, episode 41 flashback, I told you that we’d get there.)

3. meng yao frees xue yang, probably hoping he can make it as bloodless as possible; xue yang, in xue yang fashion, makes it as bloody as possible; meng yao sees his chance to do something about the guy he has always hated and who has repeatedly undermined him, and who probably also caught him in the middle of an incriminating action that nie mingjue would absolutely not accept as justifiable.

4. xue yang bounces, leaving jin guangyao caught holding the sword and surrounded by several dead bodies.

and then they don’t see each other again until xue yang ends up at jinlintai at some unspecified point down the timeline.

regarding the episode 41 flashback (see? I promised!), the view we get of meng yao talking with an unspecified person heavily implied to be xue yang doesn’t make sense in some very critical ways that also align with the selective editing that nie mingjue’s memories seem to have done on incidents we previously saw from a (presumably) omniscient perspective. many people other than me (see here, here, and here for some examples) have written eloquently about the disparities between the scenes as we see them in earlier episodes compared to what we see in the flashback, and how that suggests at least some unreliability of nie mingjue’s memories despite their presentation, since they are visually coeval with the rest of canon, as equally reliable. 

(what would be different if the empathy flashbacks were in some way visually demarcated, I wonder? it’s a thought. I like that they’re not because unreliability of narrative/narrator is such a theme, but.)

ANYWAY, regarding the section where we see that conversation between the captain and meng yao, now with bonus mysterious feet (implied to be xue yang) - a few things stand out to me.

one: nie mingjue has no way of having seen this - no personal access to what he’s supposedly seeing in his own memory. this suggests the possibility, at least, that this is a fabricated assumption of a memory. (”I believe this happened, and this is how I would reconstruct it happening.”)

two: possibly more significantly: the scene as played here doesn’t fit with canon as we see it in episode 10 itself. the scene with the captain and meng yao, as we see it earlier, includes here several additional lines of dialogue. considering the other discrepancies within the empathy flashback with previously seen canon, episode ten’s version, by virtue of not taking place within a (flashback of a) flashback and within the pov of an extremely biased character, could be read as more reliable.

see also: the flashback with the captain seeing meng yao talking to someone (implied to be xue yang) is placed directly after nie mingjue accuses meng yao of plotting with xue yang - an accusation he doesn’t make in the scene as it originally plays in episode 10. this is another place where there are several lines of dialogue that weren’t present in the earlier version of the scene, inserted apparently seamlessly into the record.

taken together, with the above where it does not make sense to me that meng yao was ~plotting~ with xue yang prior to freeing him as a way of getting the wens off nie mingjue’s back, I’m inclined to think that moment in the episode 41 flashback is a nie mingjue-generated presumption of what must have happened, rather than a factual account of what did.

meng yao’s choices in episode 10 make much more sense - as someone who, if nothing else, is definitely interested in preserving his position as part of the nie sect, but who also values nie mingjue’s life at that point enough to take a sword to the chest for him - if you don’t take that at face value.

regarding the second part of your question about the xue yang/xue chonghai connection - cql seems to indicate that he has some awareness maybe, based on his conversation with wei wuxian in episode 37? at least, he has access to Lore involving the yin iron that others were unaware of

and had one piece in his possession apparently pre-canon.

but honestly that’s a bit of cql canon that I pretty much ignore completely and sometimes forget about, though there are certainly interesting things that can be done with it.

[milenadaniels]

Hi! I saw your tag on your informal buddie lap makeout poll (Which, exceptional scientific inquiry. Cannot wait to see the results. Especially if it leads you to write something...)

Anyway, what is your thinking on lonestar and a potential buck +e ddie sex scene? (FWIW, I don't watch LS. I tried, but just could not. Not yucking anyone's yum, just didn't work for me.)

Curious what you think?

Thank you! The study is going well, I look forward to analyzing the results in depth!

(Please note: after three hours of writing out this response, I realize I may have misunderstood your question 😂 If you meant "what do you think a buddie sex scene would look like given tarlos", please let me know and it would be my genuine pleasure to describe that in great detail. What follows is not that.....)

I have been thinking about the potential of a buddie sex scene more than I ought to, I'm sure. You could say I've been a smidge preoccupied since realizing all the legit sex scenes in the show happened in season 1/early season 2. In seasons 3/4, the closest I think we've gotten to textual sex is Madney having sex to induce labour and that consisted of Maddie throwing her shirt at Chimney from off-screen.

Someone on that post (can't find it now of course) said that 911 Lone Star took over the original 911 later time slot and thus took over the ability to have sexier content.

As someone who hasn't watched a television show live in like 5 years, your ask has prompted me to do actual research to confirm this 🤓 According to pogdesign, 911 currently plays Mondays at 8pm and 911LS plays at 9pm which supports the theory.

That said, it kind of strikes me as weird that 8pm is considered too early for sexy content? But maybe I'm just out of touch with cable television??

So I did more research! So much research omfg this took 3 hours of my life. 😅

First we define the issue at hand

I'm defining a "sex scene" as a scene that involves two or more people mackin' on each other with any of the following:

the beginning of clothing removal onscreen

the movement towards a bedroom or bed

getting into someone's lap as a sign of escalation

post-coital pillow talk or cuddling

actual shots of naked skin and writhing (softcore porn essentially)

So 911 got moved to 8pm. Do any other 8pm shows have sex scenes?

CW - The 100 🔥 (I know there was a minimum of 2 wlw sex scenes, though they may have been post-coital)

CW - Riverdale 🔥🔥 is another teen show that I don't watch so I youtubed "Riverdale sex scenes" and I'm led to believe at least one couple is banging semi-onscreen well into season 4 (it has 4 seasons???)

NBC - Chicago Med 🔥, a procedural show not about teenagers and seems to have a least 1 couple with sexy scenes (the other Chicagos air at 9pm and 10pm) and I saw lap sitting for a hardcore makeout for the other couple!!!!! TIM TAKE NOTES!

NBC - Superstore 🔥, a half-hour comedy that played at 8pm on NBC, did have at least this one cut-away sex scene

So 2 teen shows, 1 procedural and 1 comedy all had something in the way of "sex scenes" while airing at 8pm.

But what if Fox the network is the sex-scene-killers??

Apparently Fox literally has only 5 scripted dramas of which the 911 is one and the others are:

The Resident 🔥🔥, a medical drama that plays at 8pm as of season 2 (9pm for season 1) and the main couple seem to have several sex scenes, but interestingly from what I can glean from YT, they may have stopped after s2 (though the couple stays together until at least s4 from what I can tell)

LA's Finest 🚫, a rebroadcast through Fox, it airs at 9pm and YT didn't show me any sexy scenes

Fantasy Island 🔥🔥 which plays at 9pm and looks to have sexier content based on the trailer

911: Lone Star 🔥🔥🔥 which plays at 9pm. Tarlos have had like 2 heavy makeouts/implied sex scenes plus a pretty hardcore-for-tv sex scene in the s2 finale

So it seems like even for Fox, the 8pm timeslot isn't necessarily what's vetoing the sex scenes in 911. But just to hammer that home, I did even more researching into the watershed hours, which is apparently the designated time broadcasters can show sexiness, but in the US that's 10pm to 6am so if the restrictions were such that they couldn't show any sex scenes before 10pm, Tarlos wouldn't have gotten that finale action (thank you, IRL bff who watched 911LS so I didn't have to!)

TL;DR - a summation of our findings

The 8pm timeslot is not the sex-scene-killer I once thought it was (see: all them filthy shows)

911 being a cop show is not a sex-scene-killer (see: dramas, procedurals and comedies all had sex scenes)

Fox is not anti-sex in their 8pm scripted dramas in general (see: The Resident)

Fox is not anti-sex homophobically (see: Tarlos, Hen/Eva)

However!! There seems to be a somewhat weird, somewhat isolated trend of Fox shows either cutting off or tapering off sex scenes (see: 911, The Resident) after 2 seasons or specifically after 2019.

So what are the theories (from least to most favourite)?

Theory #1 (Buddie loses 🚫): "Something" happened at Fox in 2019. The Resident is the only true analogue to 911 as it's also on Fox, also premiered in January 2018, also started at 9pm but was moved to 8pm (in season 2, not season 3 like 911). If my very brief googling can be trusted, The Resident saw a lot of sex scenes in season 2 (at 8pm) but after 2019 there isn't much to write home about. That lines up with what we've seen in 911. If something happened internally at Fox that changed broadcasting guidelines for 8pm, then canon Buddie will not get sex scenes unless the timeslot changes back.

Pros: It would be a hell of a coincidence wouldn't it?? Both shows airing around the same time, both stop showing sex scenes around the same time???

Cons: It's pretty weak, I can't find anything that supports "something" happening in 2019 that would affect an 8pm timeslot but not the 9pm one.

Theory #2 (Buddie loses 🚫): Sex as a short-term sales tactic. Fox uses sex in the first two seasons of shows to boost ratings and get people hooked because sex sells. But then, for whatever reason, they taper it off. If so, Buddie being canonized would not produce any sex scenes as we're far removed from season 2.

Pros: The Resident and 911 both stopped showing sex scenes after season 2 from what I can gather

Cons: If sex sells, why wouldn't it keep selling all the way to the bank?? There's no reason to stop something that's working.

Theory #3 (Buddie wins 🔥): Actors are the roadblock. Fox is fine with sex scenes at 8pm but the actors aren't comfortable! If so, Buddie sex scenes could be in the cards as both actors have had on-screen sex scenes previously.

Pros: Angela Bassett, Peter Krause and JLH are bigger names and they presumably get to not get naked on screen or simulate sex scenes if they don't want to. Aisha Hinds as a (criminally) smaller name wouldn't have had that kind of leverage in season 1, nor would Ryan Guzman in season 2? And Oliver Stark knew what he was signing up to to play a self-diagnosed "sex addict" so.

Cons: This is absolute, complete conjecture. I have zero idea what each of their comfort levels with sex scenes are or how that might relate to the writing/direction of their characters.

Theory #4 (Buddie wins 🔥): Stable canon relationships kill sex. Fox dramas use sex only pre-maritally to build relationships and the network or the showrunners/writers decide it's not as important once characters are in stable relationships/married. If so, we will get Buddie sex scenes as their canon relationship develops.

Pros: The Resident couple did get married post-season 2 I think? Athena stopped having onscreen sex after she married Bobby. Hen had sex but out of her marriage.

Cons: That's dumb, let married people bone. And we technically do have a Madney sex scene, tame as it was (but maybe they straddle of the line of stable but pre-marital???). Also if sex = building relationship, EddieAna have been excluded from that formula oops 😌

Theory #5 (Buddie wins 🔥): We're overthinking all of this. There hasn't been sex scenes past season 2 because the stories haven't called for it but when it does, such as the start of a new relationship, then we'll get some!

Pros: We haven't had any "new" relationships other than EddieAna since season 2 and their lack of intimacy is a glaring reminder they aren't well suited - they're not boning for plot reasons. While not strictly meeting the aforementioned definition of a "sex scene", we could use Albert coming out of Veronica's shower as a use of sex-as-relationship-building.

Cons: That's dumb, let married people bone, the sequel. Especially since HenRen is criminally neglected in terms of development and could use a fun playful sex scene.

So what have we learned?

Should Buddie go canon, 3 theories indicate we'd get some sex scenes for them, and only 2 say we wouldn't. The odds are in our favour. 🤡

I will do literally anything to procrastinate writing this damn fic that's been tormenting me for weeks. Please someone, anybody...send help...

[scintillatingshortgirl19]

Loki’s Line About Betraying Everyone

I need to talk about this line (spoiler: I’m not happy about it). I was going to just include this in the full episode response post I’m working on, but it got long enough that I decided to make it its own.

First of all, here’s the full quote: "I betrayed everyone who ever loved me. I betrayed my father, my brother, my home. I know what I did. And I know why I did it. And that's not who I am anymore."

Y'all, I'm less emotional about it now but this line fucked me up when I first heard it. It hit me like a ton of bricks while watching the episode for the first time because I was actually doing fine and wasn't significantly bothered by anything up until that point, and then came that line and I suddenly almost felt physically ill. I actually wrote up a post about it that night but never posted it because it was essentially just a lot of screaming, so I've now taken pieces of that and formed a hopefully more coherent post (though it still contains a good amount of screaming). So, I get that the idea that Loki’s betrayed Thor over and over is a Commonly Accepted Thing. It's really a lot more complicated than that, and there are a lot of gray areas involved, but fine, I'll give them that one. But - when did Loki betray his father? When did Loki betray his home?? I’m not just mad about it, this is...a legitimate question. I mean with the father thing, I guess the only thing could be the nursing home in Ragnarok/taking the throne from him? Which is irrelevant anyway because this Loki didn’t do that and doesn't even know it happened in the main timeline?? And besides, it PALES, like, hilariously, in comparison to any one of multiple things Odin did to him before that (not counting any fanon here - just the canon things that we know of!) I am just so confused, especially about the betraying Asgard thing. WHEN? LITERALLY WHEN? Guys, there is no film in which that took place.

If I trusted the narrative, I would say the most logical thing to conclude - at least about the betraying Asgard part - is that this is a setup for Loki to later realize he actually saved Asgard by causing Ragnarok (because that's the closest thing I can think of to "betraying his home"), which could even tie into something about, idk, helping him realize he’s capable of being a hero? (or something) and it would be a good follow-up to the moment he found out about Ragnarok in episode 2, but...fuck, the way these lines were framed it really doesn't feel like anything like that is going to happen. I could be wrong, but these just didn't strike me as lines that are at any point going to be contradicted or even revisited.

And moving onto another part of the quote - "I know why I did it." Uh, I guess good for Loki for apparently knowing that...but the audience sure doesn't?? This is something we're just now being told and have not been shown at all?? I have a feeling Loki thinks he knows why but it unfortunately doesn't have anything to do with some of the biggest actual reasons, which are the abuses done to him that helped make him who he is. Even more unfortunately, I also have a feeling the creators are on roughly the same page as Loki here. So yeah, that's a real shame.

The core problem here seems to be where the writers are coming from, and @iamanartichoke worded it really well here, so I’m just going to quote her: “either the writing is being lazy by oversimplifying Loki’s motives, or it’s being deliberately misleading in order to retcon the character, or the writers genuinely believe that’s what happened, which implies a misunderstanding of Loki’s character kinda from the get-go - at least on what drives his villainy and what fuels his anger, which are pretty significant things.” I do think there’s a slight chance they were using Loki as an unreliable narrator here and the audience was supposed to pick up on the subtext (more on that at the end of this post), but I doubt it, and I think it’s very likely one or more of the options listed in the quote. 

Honestly, I can explain Loki's line about betrayal (and his general lack of acknowledgement of his own trauma/legit grievances against his family) pretty easily in-universe. It makes sense that Loki himself would frame things as him betraying everyone who's ever loved him as if they never did anything to wrong him first, or that he would try to ignore what Thanos did to him in favor of putting all the blame on himself (coping with his trauma and loss of control by denying it). Or hell, maybe he would even straight up subconsciously invent a betrayal that never even happened, like the one about his home. I can totally understand Loki seeing the events of his life that way! That all lines up with his complete lack of self-worth, and to have him 1) recognize his mistakes and take responsibility for them (which has happened at this point in the show), but then progress on to 2) realize he isn't solely to blame for literally everything, and 3) recognize the role of his family and others in understanding why he is the way he is - that would be a very satisfying arc and is the natural direction that the story should take in episode 6. The problem is, I don't think the show is going that way. I think we're either supposed to take it at face value that Loki did in fact betray everybody who ever loved him (as if Loki is a reliable narrator when he's most certainly an unreliable one), or the audience is supposed to figure out that Loki's an unreliable narrator here - but the latter won't work, because the creators have to follow through on that subtext at some point and actually do something to indicate that what Loki said wasn't 100% true, and it doesn't feel like they're going to. You can't expect your audience to put any weight on subtext or even pick up on it in the first place if you never actually confirm anything, and your audience won't know your narrator is unreliable unless you tell them. If Loki being an unreliable narrator in that specific moment was their intention, only a small subset of fans are going to pick up on it. So the way they're framing it so far, the audience is simply going to see it the same way Loki does and not realize it's incorrect. 

Unfortunately, as stated earlier, I think the most likely explanation is that the writers either don’t understand Loki, are being lazy, or are deliberately retconning. So while I take a degree of comfort in the in-universe explanation, it’s pretty damn infuriating to consider where the writer’s minds were probably at in reality, and how this set of lines is presenting Loki to the casual audience. 

Tagging @iamanartichoke and @delyth88 if you guys have any thoughts?

[ranboo5]

whats 'the clip' and knifetrick?

Augh. Under the cut for shipping discourse and p/dophilia ment (nothing graphic or specific). Gets long bc I discuss my thoughts on DSMP shipping in general. You are setting me up fr anon

Some quick vocab -

intimacy here is used to refer to. Well. Any kind of intimacy between characters, of any sort, as an umbrella term /r, /p, and /qp here are used as shorteners to denote "romantic," "platonic," and "queerplatonic," both as adjectives And as verbs ("to /r" = "to portray romantically") shipping here is used to refer to any focused examination of intimacy between characters

And some clarity that Should follow from the essay next but may not - """anti-antis"""" and RPF writers delete forever

The Clip is from one of if not the? most recent Discord stage(s) Mr Live has done (which I missed when it was live RIP) wherein he issues a hard ban on shipping him ("do not ship me, in any way, with anyone!") which would less influence c!beeduo (which has been portrayed/stated to be romantic AND nonromantic both conflictingly for a while until being confirmed unconfirmed several months ago, that being the last was heard) without its direct invocation if he hadn't also cited for the reason as being underage ("'Cause, one, it's straight up pedophilia") which is! a) immediately applicable to At Least his DSMP character, Partially and b) while not Strictly True (should b obvious that portraying a relationship within the bounds of what it is in canon and in a nonsexual way is not That, and /r-ing c!beeduo etc was possible to do Appropriately again by remaining w/in the bounds of canon) is Clearly Indicative of the fact that baggage-wise it IS associated with people being fucking creeps

This Really complicates things bc like okay the apparent solution is "lol just don't /r it" but it's really like. A Worse issue than that bc like.

Okay the reason shipping in terms of fictional characters is a Different Bar is bc it's an examination of Intimacy and certain lines exist in certain dynamics of intimacy that Isn't Shown (which is the whole Within The Bounds Of Canon thing) which is important in a medium like DSMP because of the smaller gap + more personal relationship b/w character and streamer. Examining intimacy beyond th bounds of the consent that has been established in that regard is Weird at best and Violating And Creepy more often and, As Mentioned In Ranb's Stage, Literally Evil at worst

Which is why writing abt like. QPR or platonically intimate Techno and Philza (characters) is smth that is fine because that's smth that has been shown and repeatedly stated onscreen; it's in the bounds of canon n thus within th bounds of what the streamers've consented 2 be done with their characters. But writing T3chza making out or whatever is fucked up because it's smth that's beyond those consent barriers

And the thing is right

Slapping a /p on T3chza makeout doesn't. Make it less violating

Like what you CALL romantic is not the measure or whether it's past those barriers yk? And if it's indistinguishable, if it's in extrapolative territory that is Past The Bounds, it Does Not Matter how much you /p it EVEN IF IT IS TECHNICALLY PLATONIC y feel? Like at the end of the day placing a moratorium on some/all forms of shipping is placing a moratorium on certain examinings of intimacy

And okay 2 go back to Mr Live and his character. What it implies taken in context w/ older portrayals of c!beeduo and said by invoking smth that both evokes Really fucked up baggage (that does unfortunately exist btw I'm sorry if you didn't know that but People Really Do B Fucked Up Abt Beeduo) AND applies to his character is a revocation of consent to examining deep intimacies:tm: with his character, which is gonna apply regardless of the nature of that intimacy (even if nonromantic)

Like I don't /r c!beeduo myself, do not, never have, but I talk to people who have and have consumed content where they r background /r; I also don't think it matters. Like I don't Actively /r it and I don't Actively Not /r it because imho w/ the intimacy regarding c!beeduo that is plot relevant and character important whether that intimacy is /p /qp or /r doesn't really matter. I don't consider myself Less of a c!beeduo shipper than someone who /rs them because that would be dumb as hell and while none of the content I've made* is Intrinsically or Intentionally /r it certainly can be read tht way as much as it can be read /qp or /p. It's be dumb and hypocritical of me to like, dunk on ppl for /r-ing c!beeduo when I'm also invested in these two and my tonetags r not gonna suddenly Delete the picking apart I've done of the dynamic @ hand

Which Has Been. Within Bounds Of Canon. It's been what's been shown (sometimes to my great distress. There is a reason that the :canon_beeduo: emote looks the way it does) Directly Onscreen and in general keeping with the tone n intensity/directions of what they've Done With The Characters

HOWEVER

As mentioned up there. Revocation of consent

It makes. Full sense 2 me that Mr Live wants to place a moratorium or fullon ban on shipping his characters perhaps where he wouldn't have before because of the Unfortunately Very Extant trends of people being Fucking Weird about shipping his characters AND of using them as a Thinly Veiled Excuse to ship HIM, which. I should not have to explain why shipping real people is fucking abhorrent

THIS creates a problem which is a. Bit of a vacuum in interacting with what is a facet of c!Ranboo's arc, decision making, and character. Like you CAN have c!Ranboo w/o cbeeduo but you Can't Really have his plotline without examining c!beeduo. And as I mentioned earlier: even if your examination of c!beeduo is fully platonic, the significance of it To the plotline means that any examination of it and its relevance to the plotline and characters IS gonna be an examination of intimacy, which. Regardless of it's platonic, Is Still Shipping

Unless some HARD retconning happens it leaves this like. Hole in an aspect of c!Ranboo's arc and decisionmaking and it's very. Uncertain? God. Fucking months ago I was already kind of :huh. Does he know what the fuck he's doing: irt c!beeduo and desperately wishing for things to be cleared up and now it's only That Much Stronger

NOW. KNIFETRICK, FINALLY

Knifetrick (or, as it’s actually listed, Bishop’s Knife Trick) is a fic about "Ran and Jackie from The Pit TFTSMP" in a "canon-typical ambiguously romantic relationship." As you can tell from the scare quotes, especially if you've seen me vague, both of these are, to put it politely, Doubtful. I've read the fic; I will not be sharing my opinions because that would be neither productive nor responsible (I will just say I can't recommend it and leave it at that) but I WILL say the following that Is relevant to the conversation:

Ran's and Jackie's characterizations respectively have very little to do with characterizations from The Pit, and bear a dollar-store-version resemblance to tropes and personality motifs found in ESPECIALLY fanon c!beeduo, especially later in the fic. I would not go so far as to say they are Intentionally Literally Ranboo and Tubbo but they are transparent expies and were clearly written at LEAST unintentionally w/ c!beeduo in mind (esp since. Ran and Jackie barely interacted in The Pit), and for a readerbase that, as far as I can tell, is HUGELY dominated by /r c!beeduo shippers. Like. Sorry. This is off-brand c!beeduo.

The dynamic between the two is pretty unambiguously romantic, also; despite what the fic's white knights claim, romantic tropes and implications/motifs/imagery from at LEAST chapter two, and is very much explicitly romantic by the most recent chapter.

FROM CH1:

"And now, with raised eyebrows and a pursed lip, the newly named General Jackie observes Ran in such a way that makes the enderman’s skin crawl. Ran reminds himself that this kid, as short and harmless as he may look, is trained to kill. [...] Jackie narrows his eyes and tilts his head a little, as if he’s trying to read in between every one of Ran’s imperfect scales."

FROM CH2:

"It makes Ran’s skin itch with discomfort. [...] 'That actually doesn’t explain much of anything at all,' complains Jackie, and he pops a few croutons into his mouth with one hand. 'Tell me what you’re thinking, pretty-boy.'

"Ran feels his face flush, no doubt mildly glowing green.

"Yes, that was the other thing. The unnecessary compliments to his physical appearance.

"They don’t happen very often, and don’t seem to have very much meaning or intention behind them— Jackie often speaks like an unthinking kid— but when they do happen… they’re embarrassing. [...] It’s annoying how the rug is pulled out from under his feet in these moments when he’s 'embarrassed'. Like the conversation see-saw has temporarily shifted weight in the general’s favor."

I am not going to include excerpts from Chapter 6 because it's just the entire chapter.

I WILL SAY, HOWEVER, STEPPING ON THIS SCORPION BEFORE IT STINGS: they are not written in an RPFy manner and I don't think there's any grounds, including Vibes, of accusing Knifetrick of being like. Closet truthing or whatever. Also, while I think there's certainly Some Weirdness ESPECIALLY around the reaction, the romance itself is Not written in any way I'd call weird or problematic pre-clip; it's nothing inappropriate or like Weirdly Fetishy or whatever. Knifetrick is not #problematic or anything and I don't have beef with like the concept of liking it intrinsically; if I thought it was like. Abhorrent I wouldn't be sharing excerpts lmao dhjfnhdsbvdnfjh. Hence: if anyone uses this post or anyth like it to send harassment or bad faith ANYTHING to anyone involved with Knifetrick I will hunt you down in the fucking night even if it WAS #problematic that'd be the LITERAL OPPOSITE of productive and as it stands it's Literally Not. Essentially: Knifetrick is a (questionably-written /mean) fic using Ran and Jackie from The Pit as a vessel for a large chunk of the dynamics and headcanons of fanon /r c!beeduo in particular

And again, I would not call it problematic in any way (aside from the disingenuity of the insistence that it's TOTALLY UNRELATED TO BEEDUO and TOOOTALLY WASN'T INTENDED TO BE ROMANTIC GUYS like own your shit please)... IF it weren't for the advent of The Clip, which is calling in2 question the Entirety of the problem of /r-ing any variant of c!beeduo or any of Ranboo's characters at all

I really do not have an answer for this tbh. I genuinely wanna hear from the streamer on this more specifically because I like,,, I got no clue where 2 go from here? Do I just consider an arc retconned? Was it an issue of speaking abt a troubling subject kneejerk wise and I'm reading too much in2 it?

I just. I dunno

Tl;dr (AT LONG LAST)

- The Clip is a clip of a Discord stage where Ranboo (streamer) loudly explicitly decried shipping in a way that implicitly applies to characters he plays - This would be all well and good but is rendered complicated by the plot relevance of c!beeduo, which does not stop being shipping if it's /p'd due to it still necessarily being an examination of a particular intimacy in a way that is in canon hard to distinguish the /p, /qp, or /r nature of - Bishop's Knife Trick is an AO3 fic centered around using TFTSMP characters as /r c!beeduo expies which is not a bad thing in and of itself unless it also is covered under this moratorium - Things remain unclear until and unless we get clearer word from streamer, but considering Mr Live seems to be allergic to clarifying anything abt c!beeduo this is doubtful

*very little if any of the content I personally have made 4 c!beeduo has been posted publicly, for related reasons. You May have seen it if you're in servers w/ me, depending on Which Ones

[stellocchia]

Here’s an analysis of the “Tommy’s Plan To Kill Dream” stream (part 1)

I noticed that my “overly long” analysis always tend to be about extremely depressing streams, so here’s me trying to change that and failing miserably because I can find angst literally everywhere!

As usual I’ll be talking about the characters only unless stated otherwise from here on out. 

The whole thing is under the cut because, as the name of this “series” suggest, I’m phisycally incapable of keeping things short

Before we proceed with the analysis we need a quick overview of Tommy’s relationship with the people he interacts with this stream so that we can all start with the same mindset: 

Tommy & Tubbo: They have obviously been very close friends since the beginning but recently Tommy has developed a sort of dependence on Tubbo which really isn’t healthy. This of course is a direct result of his second exile and his mindset moving forward after that. While with Dream and then Techno Tommy was extremely isolated and made to depend entirely on the one person providing for him. He continued this even after Doomsday, this time developing an extreme dependence on Tubbo that culminated with the line “What am I without you?” (basing your entire identity around someone else is not healthy, who’d have thought?). With the developing of the hotel post-finale he expands his system of support to include Sam and Sam Nook, but this is of course ruined with the prison arc. Tommy doesn’t trust Sam any longer and, while he still cares deeply about Sam Nook, he’s not someone that can give him emotional support. So he went back to rely soley on Tubbo (though it’s obvious throughout the stream that he’s tentatively doing so with Ranboo as well)

Tommy & Ranboo: The two of them used to be sort of close before Doomsday, Ranboo still very much admiring Tommy and considering him a friend. Thet said Ranboo is not in the very small circle of people who Tommy trusts and finding him married to his best friend and moving in together with a child didn’t help his perception of him. He feels replaced by Ranboo and sort of feels like he “stole” the only system of support he had that he could count on. Though there is a beginning of change throughout the stream. 

Tommy & Ghostbur: Their relationship is really interesting. Tommy is pretty obviously one of Ghostbur’s unfinished businesses (possibly the only one now that L’Manburg is gone) and most definitely his priority. He was the only one who offered to go with Tommy during exile and he tried to be there for him constantly. Even his return this time was Tommy-motivated as we know from what he said in Ranboo’s stream. Meanwhile Tommy’s feelings on him are very complicated. He swings between recognizing that Alivebur and Ghostbur are different entities to conflating them together any time he has a strong reminder of Alivebur (at the beginning of exile and after spending time with Void!Wilbur for example). He also has only very recently come to the full realisation that Wilbur was awful to him and that their relationship was definitely not healthy (something we can infer from him finally taking a stance on not wanting him back and him admitting that Wilbur is good at manipulating him).

Now that that’s done, let’s get into the analysis!

“Oh I forgot I died, didn’t I?” So, Tommy is in a very peculiar situation where he has to somehow process his own death and, at the moment, he’s still in a state of denial about it. He knows he died but he acts like he didn’t in the sense that he hates how it affects his life. He doesn’t want people to treat him any different (even though he IS different), he doesn’t want to acknowledge the changesto the world nor to his relationships, which is the reason why he dislikes the statues of himself so much (that and the fact that he simply never liked to have statues of him). They act as a constant phisycal reminder of what happened to him and, more importantly, how much things changed in his absence. 

One other reason why change scares him so much it’s because of how often he’s alienated from the world around him. He spent more time in exile/prison then in his own home since L’Manburg got it’s independence. He is constantly forced to live in an isolated bubble while the world around him moves forward and then, when he gets thrown back in he is never really given much time to adapt and catch up before he is thrown once more into the role of the hero/villain that he despises (after the 16th for example he was painted as a liability at his first mistake and put on trial etc despite how much he did for the country. Again after Doomsday he had the Dream fight to think about and, after that, Sam Nook asked him again to be the hero against the Egg and he, once again, was villanized by the Team Rocket. Now again he finds himself in the position where he has to take action against Dream once more).

So the stream really starts with Tommy deciding to contact Tubbo to get some help in his plan to kill Dream. He heads to Snowchester to do so (stopping before that to build Sam Nook a little wooden platform to keep him out of the rain).

On the way to Snowchester he gets trapped in the tunnel and almost drowns, making him break the glass of the tunnel. This is triggering for him for a couple of reasons (aside from drowning generally being not pog): exile reminder of his waking up drowning every day and taking damage in general seems to be a reminder of his death (he also seems to be hypersensitive in general in regard to phisycal sensations) 

The whole mansion scene is a further indicator of this new dynamic between Tubbo, Ranboo and Tommy. Tubbo and Ranboo grew extremely close as we know (got married for tax benefits, adopted a child together and, apparently, canonically fell in love after) and they are planning to move in together with their son in the mansion. This, once again, all happened while Tommy was locked in prison. The feelings of alienation for him in the situation are prevalent together with his jealousy at Ranboo as he perceives him as his replacement. 

“You married someone without me- without my permission?” “Okay, can I have your permission?” “Does he make you happy?” “Yes” “then ye- okay” Just... I’m a softie and I think that it’s very sweet that his only requirement to give his blessing is Ranboo making Tubbo happy. We stan a unconditionally supportive friend! 

“Ranboo listen, let me open up to you pal! I- I’ve been through a pretty rough time recently and- (”Yeah I can tell”) and I know that we were kind of close before I went into prison, but then you ki- Tubbo would you mind looking at that flower a bit more? You kinda stole my best friend, and that’s kinda- you know now I feel kind of very lonely- actually feel very lonely” “I didn’t steal...” “And my other friend who then turned out to be my enemy is actually dead. So I’m kinda feeling a little bit left out here, and considering I was locked in a prison for 4 weeks...” “Yeah, no, I mean... I didn’t- I didn’t steal...” “No no no no, you did, you did, didn’t you? You did!” That was a big piece of dialogue there to transcribe! Regardless Tommy doing my job for me here by literally spelling out for us how he feels about Ranboo. One thing to be noted though is that Ranboo remains calm and keeps an understanding attitude in all his interactions with Tommy. He constantly tries to be reasonable (trying to explain that he didn’t “steal” Tubbo as, you know, he has his own free will and can have more then one friend) and generally just doesn’t get mad. Keeping a non-confrontational attitude is probably the best thing he could have done here.

So after that exchange Tommy opens up to them a bit about Dream, explaining what he’s planning.

“The revive book is too much and he (Dream) is too powerful and he’s only gonna use it for evil now! He is an evil man and he used it- he used ME to prove a point and to experiment on me” “Oh my God, like a lab rat!” “Like a- like a- worse then a lab rat! A lab- a lab sock!” “A lab sock?! No!” “Oh God!” “Oh my God” This is the first time in the conversation where Tommy’s gone more in depth about his traumatic experience (though he did mention before that “Dream asked him about it” in reference to his revival). It’s honestly a really big positive that he’s opening up to someone, even if it is other two teenagers who can’t do much but be sympathetic to him. 

“I think it’s good. You don’t actually know this but I’ve been- I’ve been collecting some data, but, honestly... I’m not sure is a too good of an idea” “You said it was good” “No no  no, I didn’t mean it was good in the sense of we should-” “Ranboo’s changed you, Ranboo’s changed you! He’s manipulating you! He’s manipulative and controlling” So 2 things to unpack here:

1) Tubbo hesitance comes from both him being on his last life and how things went during the season 2 finale. He isn’t too optimistic about their chances of killing Dream (even with Dream being completely unarmed in the prison) and he’s also less passively suicidal then he was during the finale, probably because he managed to build a life for himself now. He has a home, a family and Snowchester, he doesn’t wanna loose those.

2) Because of very obvious reasons (Wilbur being abusive, Dream being abusive, Techno isolating and manipulating him and then siding with his abuser and Sam betraying his trust) Tommy views all relationships aside from his with Tubbo in a negative lense. Basically he has HUGE trust issues and he’s so used to his relationships having usually some degree of manipulation (exept for Sam, who still entirely broke his trust. Also recently found out Jack had been lying and trying to kill him as well, which probably didn’t help the issue) that he just assumes that must be the case for Tubbo and Ranboo as well. Both of them of course are fast to correct him on this as that’s really not the case. 

“So why don’t you want him to bring Wilbur back now? What suddenly changed?” “I spent months in the death... area- let’s call it ‘the death zone’, with Wilbur alright?” “The death zone?” “I spent months there. I spent months and months and months there and I was only there for a few days, Wilbur’s been there for real months. He is so different and he is fucking powerful and you know how he molds me like a piece of clay, Tubbo. (hushed) I don’t want him to come back” So here we have Tommy’s admission to Wilbur’s manipulation and how effective it is on him (most probably because of how close they used to be). We also have another hint about how dangerous Wilbur is now because of the knowledge he acquired. 

“In the mean time we also... unless we don’t kill Dream... we gonna have to stop Technoblade, ‘cause Technoblade owes him a favour” “Stop Technoblade?” “Technoblade owes him a favour and we can’t let him redeem it” When Tommy mention’s Techno, Tubbo immediately becomes even MORE hesitant about this whole thing (probably a mix of his death-related trauma, Techno exploding his nation twice and his most recent inquisition venture in Snowchester). 

“So why don’t we try to block Dream’s communication with Technoblade? ‘Cause then Technoblade would have no idea how to... redeem... the favour” “He can bring back the dead Tubbo, we need him DEAD! He’s too powerful for this server’s good and he’s a bad man and he won’t use his powers for good. And it’s not even-” “Mmmmh” “What do you mean ‘Mmmh’ Man?!” “I don’t know this really- this didn’t go too well for us last time we got all hyped up and tried to do this” Tubbo once again is mostly apprehensive because of how things went last time they were up against Dream. He also tried proposing an alternative solution to fighting that Tommy shoots down because he doesn’t think anyone should have the power that Dream has. Also, may I add that Ranboo is actually on Tommy’s side on this whole thing? Possibly because he knows as well how dangerous Dream still is. 

“Just because he’s locked up doesn’t mean his strenght is, allright?” This basically perfectly sums up the crux of the issue. Of course thanks to Quackity’s lore we know that Dream’s power now is mostly a facade, but they don’t know this. To them Dream is just as powerful now as he was before. To them the image of powerlessness that the prison gives him is the facade.

That said the conversation in the electric chair tower ends here and, as this is already so incredibly long, I’ll also end part one of the analysis here. This was also the most lore-heavy part as the rest is more light-hearted so it’ll probably be faster to cover.

[alirhi]

Loki ranting

Okay. I had this thought in my head of like just compiling links of all the Loki shit I've posted/reblogged so far so that when I get into a conversation about the show and how it fucking disgusted me, I can just be like "here. here's this masterlist post, go read all this shit. This is my entire argument, and not only mine, but a lot of stuff posted by people far more intelligent and level-headed and eloquent than I am, whom I happen to agree with." Because the alternative is constantly getting fired up all over again, and that is exhausting.

BUT! I'm stupid and don't know how tumblr works. Apparently I can't just be like "give me all the Loki-tagged shit I've got" I can only search all the Loki-tagged shit on all of tumblr. And I'm not scrolling back through all of my posts. I talk too fucking much for that shit 😂

So, I'll try to remember all of my grievances with how the MCU has treated Loki, and all of the excellent posts made by other, equally upset fans, and put it all together here under this nice, neat little cut for everyone else's sanity and scrolling convenience...

For people who actually read my shit fairly regularly - bless you, you crazy, patient people. I love you! - this is going to be a lot of repetition of shit you've already read. Probably at least twice. I'm passionate and I have a terrible memory lol. Sorry.

Anyway, first, for those who don't know me and haven't been following my explosions of rage for the past couple of months, some quick background: I do not read comic books, so Loki's Marvel comic canon means nothing to me. I know almost nothing about it. The reason I'm so in love with the character in the MCU is because I am an eclectic witch and the deity I've actively loved and worshiped the longest in my life (literally for as long as I can remember) is Loki. So when he was mentioned in The Mask, I squeed. When they named Matt Damon's character after him in Dogma, I cheered.

When Thor came out in 2011, I just about died from happiness. I was hungry for any representation of this underappreciated god, no matter what it was. I didn't even bitch about how underpowered he was, because at least he was there. But I'm getting slightly ahead of myself.

I can hear anyone reading this going "Why Loki? Isn't he, like, evil? Like basically the Norse version of The Devil?" Because I heard all this shit irl all the fucking time. And no. So let me give you a quick rundown of who Loki actually is.

Loki is a Trickster God. He's often referred to as the God of Mischief. He is not and never was evil, simply chaotic and hedonistic. Loki Laufeyjarson was the son of Laufey (that's mama; they changed her to a man for some reason in the movie) and Fárbauti. Right from the start, from his name, we get a sign of how Loki goes against traditional norms of the time, because in Norse culture, families were patrilineal, and surnames were "son/daughter of father" (which would have made him Loki Fárbautitason), not the mother. But Loki's surname is matrilineal. Feminist icon woo! lol

Though he's a Jotunn, Loki is counted among the Gods (Aesir) in Norse tradition. Depending on his mood, he is alternately helpful or disruptive to the other Gods. I'm not gonna sit and teach a whole text class on him lol but I'll use my favorite example of Misunderstood Loki - the conception of Sleipnir!

So, get this shit. This is also part of why I DO NOT follow Odin and never fucking will (a very small part, but still part of the reason). So, the other Norse Gods are petty motherfuckers, and they wanted some shit built but didn't want to pay the dude doing the building. So they were like "okay, if you can get it done in X amount of time, we'll pay you, but if you can't manage it NO MATTER WHAT, this whole thing is free." And they made sure he had NO help, nothing but him, his materials, and his Very Good Horsey. And this guy and his horse were fucking BAMFs. So it was looking like he was definitely gonna get it done in time, and Odin was like "nah, fuck that shit. I'm cheap." and so he sent Loki to distract the work horse. Loki transformed into a mare and lured the horse away, got fucked, got pregnant, gave birth to the 8-legged (for some reason) horse Sleipnir. Odin rides Loki's son into battle. Um. Kay.

So Loki helped Odin be a petty mf, and Odin got himself a new pet out of the deal.

Oh, also, because he's smart af and a shapeshifter and a master magician and genderfluid, Loki "fails" to fit the super fucking toxic and narrow Norse/Aesir view of "a real man". He prefers intelligence and manipulation to solve problems rather than violence, he's not afraid to behave like a clown if it gets shit done, and that grosses the Aesir out, so they constantly ridicule him for being "less than a man".

Loki is the God of the outcast and the misunderstood. The marginalized people from all walks of life. He is the God of the LGBT community. In modern terms, he's pansexual, polyamorous (married to Sigyn and they are deeply in love, but boy gets around and I've never seen any indication that Sigyn gives a shit) and genderfluid.

Okay. Focus, Ali. This is part of why I usually post multiple rants instead of one big long one XD The longer I ramble, the more I get sidetracked and forget the original point.

So. Loki's awesome, and being a Trickster, is powerful as all fucking hell. There's not much he can't do.

And now we come to Thor (the movie, not the deity). Loki's there! 24-year-old Ali is spazzing! All is right with the world!

Oh lord, they've actually done him justice?! Amazing! He's complex and nuanced and emotional, just like the real Loki! I loved this movie. Loved. It. The climactic thing with trying to blow up Jotunheim never really made much sense to me until someone made an excellent point the other day about Loki being raised in a racist society that was racist against his own race, he just didn't know it yet, poor child. Baby Thor was never corrected when he pledged to commit mass genocide, so Baby Loki probably absorbed the lesson then that Jotunns=evil and killing them all will win his father's love. Anyway, 2011 Loki was a beautiful, heartbreaking portrayal of the God I've loved all my life and spent 24 years longing to see depicted on the big screen.

Then The Avengers happened. And I saw another Loki very close to Norse mythology - mainly, how he's treated. In the beginning of the movie, he's sick, exhausted, and in pain. He can hardly stand, he stumbles and needs help when he walks. He was very obviously tortured, and the sickly blue light of the scepter's control is in his eyes. That gets less and less pronounced as the movie goes on, showing Loki working his way free of it, but in the beginning, he's a mess. Because he was tortured and used by Thanos. Marvel directly confirmed this, and that he was under the scepter's/Mind Stone's control. Loki's actions are not his own in The Avengers. He's under both threat and Thanos' direct control. The movie actually shows The Other directly threatening him to keep him on task, because this is not Loki's plan. It is not what he wants. He's being used and villainized... Just like in real life. It hurt to see this done to him, but the accuracy was too beautiful to ignore.

Thor: The Dark World comes out. I've heard people complain that this movie is the weak link in the Thor trilogy. I disagree. I think that's Ragnarok, for a bunch of reasons, but we'll get there. (And for the record, I loved Ragnarok, too. It was a funny movie. Infinity War and the Disney+ series are the only portrayals of Loki in the MCU that I truly fucking hated.) Anyway, good, fun movie. Had its faults, as all movies do, but it still followed Loki's real-life arc in a way. How? By having Loki dragged back to Asgard in chains and imprisoned underground. Again, not super happy that this happened to my love, and having to see it on screen was painful, but at least in the MCU he's not chained to a rock with venom dripping on his face for eternity, so there's that. (poor Sigyn. how tired do her arms get, holding up that bowl? best wife ever, amirite?)

In TDW, we're shown Loki's love for Frigga, who favored him and taught him magic as a child. We see his bravado; his attempts to mask his true feelings, especially grief. We see him slowly coming back to himself after the events of The Avengers, and slowly mending his relationship with his brother. He accepts that Odin will likely never love him, but Thor just might, because they were close when they were young. "I didn't do it for him." No, no my sweet, you did it for your brother, and a little out of guilt for what happened to your mother.

At the end, Loki fakes his death and escapes, taking the throne, and I have mixed feelings about this. Not the writer's choices here; I love that completely! A natural progression in Loki's story. But my joy is tainted by how closely they're following the Eddas now. Because Loki's escape from his prison heralds the beginning of Ragnarok. And Loki will die in Ragnarok. I don't want to see that play out in front of my face. I won't be able to handle the grief (spoiler alert! IW broke me. I almost walked out of the theater. Loki's death was legitimately fucking traumatic for me. I don't even care how pathetic that is. That grief was real, it was intense, and I still shake and cry when I think about it.)

Marvel announces that Thor 3 will be called Ragnarok. The internet treats this as a shocking revelation. I roll my eyes and mumble "duh" to myself and move on XD

Then they say Ragnarok will be a buddy comedy. I throw up a little in my mouth and no longer want to live on this planet. If they're going to make something called Ragnarok, could they at least treat it with even a fraction of the respect they've shown these characters thusfar? Jfc. I mean, I'll see it anyway, because I'm a whore for Tom Hiddleston lol. But come on, people!

I hated that they made Hel the long-lost older sister and Fenrir her fucking pet/attack dog. Those are my favorites of Loki's children! Hel is such an incredible badass that the early Christians named their dimension of eternal torture after her! They were terrified of her, to the point of naming the place that terrified them most after her. That's awesome! And Fenrir's just the best. I love wolves. Those two details, and Odin's retcon of "we're not Gods! ...lol, except your sister. she's totally a Goddess. and def gonna kill literally everything, so... good luck! byyyeeeee" pissed me off royally.

The rest was great. I genuinely liked this movie. Still do. And they finally used The Immigrant Song! That was pretty cool. If they'd thrown in Bring the Hammer Down and Thunderstruck, I might've called this movie perfect. XD

I wasn't totally in love with their portrayal of Loki in Ragnarok. Yes, the falling for 30 minutes line was funny, as was "I have to get off this planet" and "YES! That's how it feels!" And "Get Help" was funny as hell. But also, like... There is no way Loki would have been the dumb one in that first encounter with Hela. Also, he can teleport and project copies of himself and shit, so... He would not have been that desperate to go straight back to Asgard and bring her right along with them. Loki's not stupid. But whatever. Movie's gotta movie.

What I did love was seeing the slow mending of his relationship with Thor continuing, and the badass fighting on the bridge. I also loved that, like Real Loki, Movie Loki helped when help was needed, was quick and clever, and while he was carrying out the main plan, he was also planning ahead and grabbing the Tesseract. Yes, that drew Thanos right to them, but that's a whole other thing. Loki never would have left that thing on Asgard to be destroyed or lost.

And now Infinity War. Hooooly fucking shit. You know what? No. I'm not going into this. He was killed, years of character growth were erased forever, my heart fucking shattered. The end.

Endgame. IW hurt me so bad I didn't see Endgame until this year. I actually watched Civil War first (for context: I had actively avoided all Cap movies until this year because I fucking hate Steve Rogers. I find him insufferable. Did not realize what I was denying myself until I watched CW and finally saw the charms of Bucky. When he appeared in IW, I was so lost. XD I was like "...who dis? Murder Jesus?" also I just... didn't care. I was numb by then from crying through most of the movie over Loki)

So, anyway. Endgame. Loki picks up the Tesseract in alternate 2012, escapes, fans go "yay! he didn't actually die!" I go "yes he fucking did. Five years of his life, gone. Five years of growth and change, erased. Loki is dead. This will not be the same."

I was more right than I could have predicted. Now we come to the point of this rant. Sorry it took so long, but you were warned lol.

The Loki series makes me so angry I actually get sick to my stomach. It was fucking TRASH. When I praised Marvel for following Norse mythology so faithfully earlier? Yeah. I DID NOT MEAN TREAT HIM THE WAY THE OTHER GODS DID. I did not mean paint him as a pitiful clown, a joke, a caricature of who he truly was, with his pain and suffering played for LAUGHS.

This is supposed to be 2012 Loki, newly freed from Thanos' control. The Loki we saw in the beginning of TDW - snarky, exhausted, nihilistic. The Loki who rolled his eyes and said "get on with it" expecting to be killed.

The bumbling clown flipping on a dime from posturing to calling himself weak is not 2012 Loki. That is not ANY Loki. That is Tom Hiddleston in a black wig doing what he's told by a shitty writer who had no fucking idea what he was doing and was salty about his (bad) original script (for something totally fucking unrelated) getting killed.

In Episode 1, Loki is mocked, imprisoned, stripped against his will, tormented, belittled, and given a flippant summary of all the trauma Actual MCU Loki suffered that this one skipped out on, with no context, no acknowledgement of the trauma he's already lived quite fucking recently, and with the narrative twisted to not only erase all the abuse he's suffered, but to make it all his fault. And this is supposed to make him want to help these people?

And worse, IT FUCKING WORKS. WHAT?! I CAN'T- FUCKING WHAT?! Remember when I said LOKI IS NOT FUCKING STUPID?! So why is he STUPID?

Episode 2, he's a child. Mentally, this Loki is a fucking child. Now we've erased all the growth and development of his entire adult life. He's dopey, impatient, impulsive, desperate for a pat on the back and actually shows it. Yes, abused and neglected children crave the positive attention we never received, and we often grow up to be a bit emotionally stunted. But not all of us, and not Loki. Not as we've seen him EVER in the rest of the MCU. Playful and a bit callous at times? Absolutely! But not a big dumb fucking puppy.

Episode 3, a ray of hope, despite Sylvie! (I hate Sylvie) Loki casually admits he's pan/bi; labels never come up, but he admits to being with both men and women! He sings! Not really relevant to whether I approve of his portrayal or not lol but Tom has a beautiful voice, Norwegian ("Asgardian" lol) is a gorgeous, entrancing language, and I could watch that one bit on loop for eternity and never get bored. And then, finally, we see a glimpse - a glimpse - of Loki's power! He stops a falling building and pushes it right back up! Are we finally getting to see what he can really do? Will the next episode bring us Loki in all his glory?

Nope. 4 and 5 we see him mocked and pushed around and utterly irrelevant. Again. We see tiny reflections of what he could maybe theoretically do in other random Loki variants, but the "main" (lawl. main. it was the Sylvie and Mobius show. Loki was never the main anything.) Loki? Nothing. He wears his heart on his sleeve for no reason, bonds with the man who imprisoned, taunted, and gaslit him, is killed, and continues to be a moron and a joke. Always the clown. Always the dumb one. The one with the bad ideas. The inferior Loki.

Don't even get me started on that finale. I can't. This already took so much out of me. Fuck Marvel. Fuck this fucking show. I just... I'm done.

[hello-nichya-here]

Why Ozula Makes Sense & Why It Should Be Canonized

Note: Massive Trigger Warning

Note: Yes, I already know's Nichya's opinion on Ozula. But I want to see her specific thoughts in regards to my post.

In a fan base filled with split opinions, two of the few universally held truths are that Ozai is a horrible parent and that Azula has a lot of issues. But there is a lack of consensus on whether Ozai even abused Azula and even more of a lack of consensus on the nature of his abuse if he did abuse her.

  And for the record, I personally believe that at bare minimum Ozai did emotionally abuse Azula (“Trust is for fools, fear is the only reliable way” did not come out of nowhere). Not to mention turning Azula into a child soldier is obviously abuse.

  But is what we see, or what is heavily implied, enough to explain everything about the Ozai-Azula relationship? 

  In other words, does the abuse we see, or is heavily implied, enough to explain why Azula was utterly loyal to Ozai to the point she would gleefully risk her life for him while he sat in a bunk, despite Azula being utterly pragmatic in the other aspects of her life? 

  Does it truly explain why Azula utterly broke after he left to burn the Earth Kingdom despite being made Fire Lord and becoming the presumptive heir to the Phoenix throne?

  Moreover, where did Azula learn to flirt and/or why does she come off as sexually charged with nearly everyone she encounters (ex. Ty Lee, Sokka, Zuko) when it is canon that she has no life experience outside of being a soldier or a princess in court?

  Other people have come up with headcanons and theories involving, among other things, historical context and meta-textual evidence to explain the questions that I brought up, but what if there was a more sinister answer to all of them?

  What if Ozula was a thing?

  Yes, I know, there is very little evidence or subtext to support this but I think that if it did occur in canon, it would not only explain a lot about Azula’s character and/or issues, but also shed some much needed light on the Ozai-Azula relationship and even Ozai himself. Especially since, despite all the extended universe material we have gotten in the decade plus since ATLA the show ended, we still don’t know that much about their relationship, or Ozai himself.

  So, what is my personal take on how a canon version of Ozula? 

  I think that Ozai sexually abused Azula in part to replace Ursa once he “had” to banish Ursa and also in part to prepare her to produce super powerful heirs like herself in addition to using as a tool to keep her under his thumb by making her more attached to him than before he started coming on to her.

  In regards to the first reason, Azula is a dead ringer for Ursa and most people would agree Ursa is one of the attractive women in the ATLA-verse. Thus, considering Ozai’s canonical entitlement issues, it must have been hard to no longer rape have sex with Ursa...that is unless he copulates with Ursa’s mini-me. 

  This ties into the second reason, which is the desire to produce more superpowered heirs. 

  Thanks to The Search, we know that Ozai married Ursa in order to fulfill a prophecy that said would have produced exceptionally powerful benders. And that prophecy was mostly proven right since Azula is the GOAT Firebender as of current canon and Zuko has surpassed, or is close to surpassing, his father while still in his late teens or very early twenties.   

  For most people, being the father to such prodigies would make them content in life, proud that they could call themselves father to such talented people. 

  But Ozai isn’t like most people for, as Ursa aptly put it, Ozai is a small man trying to appear bigger than he is, which is obviously proven by Ozai’s ambitions and desires over the years.

  It was not enough that he was a prince of the most powerful nation in the world, so he must become Fire Lord at all costs. And once he achieves that by ripping his family apart and traumatizing the remaining members was enough that he was Firelord? 

  No! He must become the Phoenix King and build his new empire on the ashes of The Earth Kingdom despite already having it under his rule. 

  And it was not enough that he had a cult of personality, for Ozai commissioned larger than life statues with his package being accentuated to the point of absurdity. 

  So is it crazy to believe that he believes that not only is he entitled to the most beautiful woman he knows of (and if he can’t have her then he’ll have the closest thing to her even if it is his own daughter) but the most powerful heirs he could possibly have? Especially considering Ozai is a narcissist who made Azula his golden child because of his daddy issues caused by being the unfavored son of Azulon. 

  In other words, would it have been out of character for Ozai to fuck "himself" aka the person he thinks he would have been if Azulon recognized his “superiority” over Iroh? Especially when he can make more prodigies like himself Azula?

  And in regards to the third reason, did you see how needy Azula was in regards to Ozai when they had their short little talk before Ozai crowned him as the Phoenix King?

  I think Ozai, more than anyone, realized that Azula would soon quickly surpass everyone who was not a fully realized Avatar and wanted to ensure that Azula wouldn’t do the pragmatic thing and off him once she realized that she didn’t need daddy anymore. Especially after he offered his own father and betrayed his brother to take the throne. 

  For if he was paranoid enough to banish Ursa for her ability to make that OP poison, what makes you think he never had similar paranoid thoughts about either of his children? Especially Azula considering how strongly she takes after him and how he has been molding her in his image and ideologies ever since it was apparent she was a prodigy?

  So by sleeping with her, and therefore bonding with her, he would ensure that Azula would have no motive to ever overthrow him. 

  And how would this work in practice? 

  The same way he praised her for her firebending and ruthlessness. He would likely tell that he needed her; that she was a much better (pseudo) Fire Lady than Ursa could ever be (the old nick site said Azula was renowned in court and it is plausible that she did the duties that Ursa would have done as Fire Lady); that it was one more thing that Zuko could never do better than Azula and more proof that she deserved to be his perfect tool by his side; etc.

  And for the most part I think that Azula “responded” really well to Ozai’s false praise by further latching on to him, convinced more than ever that Ozai does love her and would never leave her. Especially since Ursa is gone, Iroh and Zuko are both gone at this point due to Zuko’s banishment, and Mai and Ty Lee are also already gone, or going to leave soon, leaving Azula with only Ozai as the only family and/or friend who hasn’t “abandoned” her.

  Ok, so I know what you guys are going to ask next; “cool theory but how does it explain anything other than your sick fetish?”

  Well, I think canon Ozula would explain a lot of things about Azula’s and Ozai’s behavior that really isn’t explained by canon or is, currently, only lightly implied. 

  For example, why did Ozai never remarry or produce more heirs in the five years he ruled despite putting his real heir, Azula, in constant mortal danger and spending most of that time either disowning Zuko or hunting him down as a traitor? Especially considering that he was only able to ascend since his brother was a dumbass and only had one kid himself? Not to mention the fact that Ozai is likely has a very high sex drive (have you seen his body?) yet we never see any concubines in the palace.

  Well because he wanted to produce heirs with Azula and so waited until she was of age to marry her and then have his new heirs.  

  Why did Azula collapsed after being told to say behind despite getting the title she always desired, Ozai having a logical reason to leave her behind (people would try to invade the Fire Nation..which is what happened with Zuko and Katara), and Azula eventually getting to inherit the Phoenix Empire? 

  Well, Ozai leaving her behind shows that Ozai thinks all Azula is worth after her numerous failures is producing heirs, making Azula realize that his bedroom talk was all lies and that he never loved her, only saw her as a tool. Moreover, all his words about her being a better Fire Lady than Ursa are lies since they both ended up in the same spot in life; only existing as Ozai’s (unwilling) broodmares. 

  Why does Azula hate and hallucinate Ursa despite Ursa being by all accounts a loving mother? And why does Azula avoid and hate reflective surfaces? 

  Well, because Azula’s subconscious wishes that Ursa was there to protect her from the abuse and also subconsciously reckoning with the long buried knowledge that part of the reason why Ozai came onto her is because she looks like a clone of her very beautiful mother. 

  Moreover, it would explain why Azula thinks Ursa thought of Azula as a monster when Ursa never said anything like that or gave any indications of seeing Azula like that. 

  For Azula would likely think, subconsciously, why would my mother leave me with a monster unless I am a monster?

  It would also explain, partially, why Azula goes from someone who is a bully, but loves & plays with her bro at 8, to someone who smiles when Zuko is burned at 13. 

  This is because Azula would think that all Zuko has to do to be in Ozai’s good graces is be a good firebender, a ruthless leader, and follow Ozai commands perfectly & without any hesitation. 

  Yet Zuko can’t even do any of that while she, in addition to previous requirements, has to give her mind, body, and soul to Ozai.

  It would also explain why Azula is so frantically loyal to Ozai (and even loves him) even when it is obvious to everyone that Ozai only cares for himself (he literally groomed her); why someone could be so fucked up and go insane at the age of 14 (victims of child sex abuse end up suffering from mental illness thanks to their trauma; and also explain why Azula has such sexual mannerisms (ex. her interaction with Sokka on DoBs) and voice acting while also being the only main female character to constantly wear makeup that is quite similar to her mother’s (she is trying to appear much older than she is while also trying to “replace” her mother for her father’s sake and maybe even for her own sake as well).

  Finally, it would contextualize that infamous bedroom scene, or more generally the subtle incest vibe between her and Zuko, by explaining her behavior towards him as attempt to unnerve him and/or an attempt to pass on her abuse to another person (which is very common).

  So the next thing you guys are likely going to say,” Ok then. Maybe Ozula might explain a lot of things but how would you explain the fact that Azula has never shown any indication that her father touched her like that? Moreover, what would be the benefit of introducing such a dark topic into the franchise.”

  Well to the first question, Azula would never bring it up because of some combo of: it is shameful as hell, she doesn't think it is wrong because it is all she knows, she still loves Ozai deep down, and/or thinks it her fault just like it was Zuko's fault for getting burned by Ozai and banished for talking out in the war council and/or not fighting back at the Agni Kai.

  And as to the second question, well there would be a lot of benefits. 

  For example, imagine the lore/story potential we could get out of a canon Ozula, as outlined in the headcanon down below?

One of the reasons why the places like Yu Duo became quickly filled with mixed families was due to a mix of sex slaves and families selling their daughters to their wealthy colonziers. 

  Also the Fire Nation had an extensive sex trackiffing network to service wealthy nobles and the Firelord; Ozai was in charge of this network and was able to blackmail people like Mai's father into supporting him in court and eventually his regime, especially in the early days when it looked like Iroh might challenge Ozai. 

  The reason why Zhao kept getting promotions despite his incompetence was because he was the best at capturing girls/women to keep the supply running high and Ozai had to keep him happy or else Zhao would spill the beans. 

  The reason why Ukano supported the NOS despite Zuko offering him a job and most likely becoming his father-in-law is because he was part of the network and it was a matter of time before Zuko found out and exposed him. 

  Azula helped procure women for Ozai during the 3 years Zuko/Iroh were away and this is part of the reason why Ty Lee and Mai distanced themselves from her (they thought they were next even though Azula would never do that to them) & why they followed her despite loathing her until someone they cared about was going to die (they thought Azula would punish them by making them into sex slaves though Azula “cares” about them too much to ever do that to them). 

  Azula was also abused by Ozai in those 3 years as raping women and girls weren't enough for him anymore and needed a new kink, incest, especially since Azula looks like her mom, who is one of the most attractive women in ATLA and Ursa was long gone.

And even disregarding the lore potential, there is the potential (positive) real world impact a seriously written Ozula could have.

  For it one of the best things about the Avatar franchise is its ability to deal with complex & sensitive topics such as child & spousal abuse (The Fire Nation Royal Family; Yakone’s family; Toph’s family), abusive/toxic friendships (The Dangerous Ladies), sexism (S1 Sokka & Pakku), PTSD (Korra), genocide (Airbender genocide & Southern Water Bender Genocide), propaganda/brainwashing (The Fire Nation schools & the Dai Li), and imperialism (Post-Sozin to the start of FL Zuko’s reign Fire Nation) with the respect they deserve while making it palpable to kids. 

  And considering the post-MeToo world we live in, what better dark and taboo topic to tackle than sexual abuse?

  Especially considering that most people aren’t really aware that most victims of sexual abuse where abused by someone close to them, that most people don’t seem to recognize when such grooming occurs or that it is a bad thing until it is too late (ex. Drake Bell, Kyle Massey, Drake (The Rapper), R. Kelly, etc.), and most victims don’t react to their abuse the way most people think they should (ex. Fight back or tell others). 

  Thus, couldn’t Ozula be used to educate people on the signs of such grooming and/or abuse and how to properly help such victims?

  I also think that seeing Azula overcome the effects of a canon Ozula could also provide healing for someone who played a pivotal role in bringing Azula to life: Grey DeLise.

  It was a shock for me to find out, but Grey DeLise has repeatedly said that she got abused by people her mother let into their home and that her mother did nothing despite obviously knowing what was going on. 

  Considering that DeLise heavily projects onto Azula (including Azula’s relationship with Ursa), has a history of sexualizing Azula (she explicitly said she voiced the bedroom scene with Zucest in mind), and went to really dark place to record Azula’s breakdown, is it crazy to say that DeLise had Ozula as her one of personal headcanons and that it affected her Azula performance?

  That is why, in combination with everything else I have said, I think Ozula has the potential to have a real impact how sexual abuse victims are treated and viewed.

  Imagine Ozai plotting to remove Ursa, Azulon, Iroh, and Zuko from the palace so he could "play" with Azula unimpeded after almost being caught several different times while also taking things to the next “level”? 

  Imagine the goading of Azulon/Ursa's banishment and Zuko's burning/banishment all part of this plot?

  Imagine Azula making inappropriate jokes about fathers breaking in their daughters to Mai & Ty Lee, causing them to be unnerved while Azula wonders what was wrong with her apt description of father-daughter relationships?

  Imagine Ozai spending the next three years molding Azula to not only be his perfect pet weapon but also his future consort once she is of age.?

  Imagine his anger when Azula comes home with her childhood friends and Zuko, cutting down on their alone time?

  Imagine his horror when he finds out that Azula non-ironically enjoys her time with them more than him despite the fact Ozai had groomed her from a young age to only love him? 

  Imagine his happiness when Zuko leaves and Mai and Ty Lee are later jailed, allowing him unlimited time with Azula again, despite the hardships Azula’s lapses in judgment regarding her friends & brother. Not to mention Ozai thinking that he once again gets to be the sole attention of Azula's affections? 

  Imagine Ozai finding out Azula non-ironically misses her brother and friends and so he leaves her behind during Sozin's Comet as punishment for her conflicted emotions & past failures?

  Imagine Ozai defeated coming home to see Azula chained, physically and mentally broken, screaming for her bitch of a mother. Only then realizing, for a fleeting moment, the damage he did to his daughter, only to go back to feeling rage at her humiliating loss & even more humiliating loss of sanity?

  Imagine Ozai patiently waiting to be reunited with his pet heir and once they meet in his jail cell, convincing Azula that they can be together again if Azula can get a hold of that accursed letter and kill Ursa, the only person who could possibly refute it?

  Imagine Ozai hearing that Azula failed in her mission due to being unable to kill her mother despite having Ursa literally in her hands, marking the first time Azula ever disobeyed him? Moreover, imagine his rage once he hears how she disowned him and basically dismantled from within an organization trying to reinstate him on the throne?

  Imagine Ozai confronting Ursa, Iroh, and Zuko once they find out about his abuse of Azula, thinking he has once again found a way to manipulate them? Only to find out that they are through with him for good and that they will help Azula heal from his abuse.

  Imagine Azula finally going through a healing arc, where with the help of well-trained healers and her mother (who she bonds with over both being victims of Ozai), she learns that what Ozai did to her was wrong, how healthy relationships actually work, & how her abuse never justified her abuse of others?

  Imagine Azula then undergoing an atonement arc, where, among other things, she becomes a leading advocate for mental health issues and sexual abuse victims, eventually working with Zuko & Aang to to create shelters & a proto-CPS in addition to radically changing the Fire Nations views on sex & consent?

  Imagine Azula eventually finding a loving partner and engaging in a mutually loving relationship, eventually having her own child who she raises in the exact opposite fashion that Ozai raised her while also being a loving aunt to Izumi?

  Imagine Ozai thinking that Azula will one day return to him, thinking that he has irreversibly molded her to need him the same way a baby needs its pacifier. Only for him to die never being visited by Azula again, who has long stopped caring for Ozai and hasn’t spared him a thought for a long time & will never do so again?

  Therefore, in sum, Ozula has the potential to do to victims of sexual abuse what the depiction of the Ozai-Zuko relationship, and Zuko eventually realizing his father is abusive & disowning, did for victims of abuse while also maybe giving DeLise some form of catharsis.

Thus, in the long list of bad things Ozai did (abuse his wife/son/daughter, kill his father/ruler, illegally urusp his bro, attempt a genocide of a continent, attempt to kill a 12 year old, turn Azula into a child solider/general, etc.) is molesting Azula the worst thing he could have done? 

  Or I am crazy with a need to go to a therapist for my many unresolved issues?

More Notes:

https://youtu.be/UjLzX1xPW1U?t=316

Grey: they're like 'why are you sexualizing everything?" because i do that in my whole life, my whole life is sexualized Olivia: same. that’s why Grey and I get along Grey: we've... got... abusive childhoods Olivia: uhhh Grey: uh... well I do Olivia: I don't, I just like sex! Grey: depending on who i'm doing it with... then yeah. Olivia: visibly uncomfortable Grey: I've not liked it a lot as much as I've liked it. Olivia: 0_0 Brad is like what... the hell.. is happening

Grey also talks about her abuse in an interview with Mental Illness Happy Hour where she details how her mother abandoned her to people she knew were raping her. And Grey has repeated her story in multiple interviews over the years.

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Looooong-ass post ahead! You're not crazy, and there is subtext for Ozula... just like there is for Maizula, something I actually like but that I personally believe didn't happen - and if anyone reading this has not yet seen my first answer to why I don't think Ozai sexually abused Azula, I recommend you do so: https://hello-nichya-here.tumblr.com/post/650918965929000960/trigger-warning-i-know-you-talk-a-lot-about-how

While I see the merit of any good story, and I have read good stories that interpret Ozai and Azula's relationship as having involved sexual assault at some point, it is far more likely that in the actual canon (be it just in the show or also taking into account the comics) that simply neved happened, and I'll explain why.

About Ozai never remarrying

It would be very strange for Ozai to never try to have more heirs, and constantly endanger the ones he does have... until we remember that the only noble family in Avatar that has more than two kids is Ty Lee's, and that there are people like Kyoshi who literally over two centuries old when she died. Avatar is a very mature kid's show, but it is still a kid's show, with characters who control the elements and don't get a single scratch on them in situations that would severely injure or kill a normal human being, and the writers likely didn't want to add more characters to an already complicated, political plot like the Fire Nation Royal Family - which is why Iroh never remarried, Azulon's wife was already dead, there were no Lu Ten flashbacks, etc. If they went to such lengths to avoid creating too many characters, it makes sense that Zuko and Azula have no step-mother and no half-siblings in the show. Furthermore, the show clearly wanted to push Azula and Zuko's rivalry - adding another sibling would force their attention (and ours) to shift to said sibling, which is why Kiyi only was created in the comics that were focusing on the royal family, after Zuko became Fire Lord, and even then she is Ursa's daughter but not Ozai's, meaning Azula is still the only real "rival" Zuko has.

Ozai's supposed obsession with Ursa

Despite the radical change in the story of their marriage, I'd say that Ozai was NOT obsessed with Ursa, be it in the show where she consented to marry him, or in the comics where she kidnapped and raped. Princes were expected to marry and have heirs, and the war meant they'd need to have powerful heirs. He married Ursa (against her will or otherwise depending on the version of the story), had two kids with her (the standard in their universe), and encouraged said kids to be ruthless, punishing them when didn't meet his expectations (the Agni Kai and Zuko's banishment were cruel, but they were the type of behavior the Fire Nation rewarded). We need to remember that Ozai's only real problem with the hierarchy and expectations of his nation was when he had to see his brother be Fire Lord instead of him, because Ozai's only real obsession was the crown.

Yet he didn't kill his father until Ursa came up with a plan to do it so she could save Zuko, didn't kill Iroh, smiled in disdain when Zuko said he would help the Avatar defeat him, and constantly endangered Zuko and Azula despite having no other heirs. That behavior might seem strange, until you realize Ozai did truly respect the autority of Fire Lord at one point, but after he managed to steal the crown, he felt like he won absolutely everything - and to prove that he became the Phoenix King, showing he was above even that. He didn't need Ursa, Azula, or any other woman to give strong heirs, because Azula was already filling that role. There is no evidence he was obsessed with Ursa because he only married her because it was the norm (same logic applies to the possible sexual abuse she suffered - she was supposed to give her husband heirs, so Ozai forcing himself on her could easily just be him doing what was expected of him), and then once she was no longer needed and he would actually be in a more favorable position if she disappeared he CHOSE to banish her - the law said he had to punish her for killing Azulon, but the law also said he shouldn't have let her kill his father in the first place. And in the comics he threated to kill both their kids if she came back. If he was obsessed with her, he would have used their kid's lives to force her to stay and never say a word about what happened to his father. But didn't do that, because he didn't want Ursa around.

Could he be obsessed with Azula herself instead of thinking of her as a replacement for Ursa?

I personally don't think so, mostly because of his actions towards both his kids and because of the intentions the writers had. During The Beach, Ozai sends Azula away for a little while with Zuko, Mai and Ty Lee. On the meeting before the eclipse, he had Zuko at his right hand. On their last scene together, Ozai looks annoyed that Azula is around, stabs her in the back, lies to her face, and then leaves her. Finally, when he is last seen on screen, he doesn't ask Zuko what happened to her, if she is in prison, if she lost her bending too, if she is dead... nothing.

Ozai's behavior towards Azula is much more similar to his treatment of Zuko than most people realize. He shuts them both down when try to be anything other useful weapons - be it when they are showing "weakness", failing on their missions, trying to betray him, or trying to be equals to him. His reaction to Zuko's "All I ever wanted was for you to love me" was basically the same he had to Azula's "I thought we were going to do this together/This was my idea/I deserve to be by your side/You can't treat me like Zuko". He instantly told them both to shut the fuck up. He has no affection for them - for Azula - be it a normal one or a twisted one. They might as well not exist when they're not winning him battles.

On top of all that, comics!Ozai full on said he'd kill Zuko and Azula if Ursa didn't stay away, and considering how little regard he showed to anyone and how easy it would be for him to find a new wife if he had to, it is very clear he meant it. And a plot-line that was originally going to happen in book 3 but was cut (likely due to there not being enough time to explore it) had Ozai planning an arranged marriage for Azula - if he wanted her for himself, why was he more than ready to give her away to some rando the second she was old enough to marry?

Intention of the writers VS Intention of the actors

Assuming Grey did want there to have, at the very least, subtext for Ozula, we still run into a different problem: her intention goes against what is presented in canon. With something like Zucest or Tyzula, it is easier to make it work despite the pairings not being canon - they are meant to be complicated, unhealthy dynamics in which the characters involved have both negative and positive feelings for each other. So you could say Zuko and Azula were attracted to each other AND were still rivals. You could say Azula was in love with Ty Lee, and the feeling was mutual, but Ty Lee still chose to save Mai at the boiling rock regardless because it was the right thing to do for her friend.

With Ozula, however, it'd lead to a Zutara-esque situation (again, assuming Grey really did want that subtext to exist, since she didn't specify if that was what she meant when she said she went into a dark place while acting Azula's scenes in the finale). Dante Basco, aka Zuko, is the capitain of the Zutara ship, so any scene between Zuko and Katara gets at least a bit of subtext (and Zutara actually had full on ship-bait moments)... but the show also made it clear that the characters were NOT interested in each other like that, and they both ended up with different people. That means Zutara has some base for it, but it is still NOT CANON. Ozula is on even less solid ground since the overwhelming majority of the text activelly goes against it - again, Ozai seemed uniterested in both his wife and his daugheter, and activelly tried to distance himself from them.

How Azula flirts VS how she acts around Ozai

If we assume all of Azula's behaviors towards people like Zuko and Sokka was indeed intentional, we need to ask ourselves: was it really flirting or an attempt to unnerve them?

With that assumption in mind, I mostly see her actions towards Sokka as having been based on a display of power instead of flirting, but I can understand if people disagree. I fully believe she was attracted to Zuko and wanted both to intimidate him and flirt with him, and even discussed it at length on the link bellow (and offered another possible explanation of why she might not have been interested in Sokka after all) https://hello-nichya-here.tumblr.com/post/654197363889635328/zucest-is-it-really-flirting

When we take that behavior into account, regardless of motivation, and then compare it to her actually trying to flirt with Chan, we see that Azula has different styles of flirting, both of which are based on warpped perceptions of how normal interactions work - one having a predator/prey vibe with open ridicule, and the other with awkward/false flattery that is accidentally insulting and/or scary.

However, if we look at how she acts with Ozai, we see that she acts like a completely different person. She is very respectful and very distant - sort of how servants and guards act around her. That shows that despite her love for her father being actual canon (unlike any attraction she possibly felt for any character) their relationship is VERY formal. Azula doesn't take any liberties with her father, making it very unlikely that she learned her more "inapropriate" behaviors from him.

Azula's trauma

Azula was neglected by her mother and turned into a child soldier by her father. In Zuko Alone, we see Ursa spending a lot of time with Zuko but not with Azula, harshly reprimanding her without trying to understand her motives (like when she asked Zuko why he hurt the turtle-ducks), and even asking "What is wrong with that child?". Add in the over the top neglect she faced in the comics, the obvious guilt Azula was starting to feel for her actions in book 3, as well as the fact that a parent suddenly leaving like Ursa did can severely affect their child's mental health (which was likely to have been fragile in the first place considering Azula's more distressing behavior as a kid, as well as the psychological torment and hallucinations she dealt with in the finale) it makes perfect sense for Azula to believe her mother saw her as monster. Her claim that their mother liked Zuko more and her reaction to Mai's "I love Zuko more than I fear you" shows that her problems with her mother come believing she was not loved while her brother was - could she have also wanted Ursa to be there to protect her from sexual abuse? Sure. She could have simply wanted her mother to procted her from literally anything, or just be by her side and be proud of her.

This trauma also explains her freaking out as Ozai left her in the finale. She had recently lost Zuko, Ty Lee and Mai - the later of the three having accidentally touched an old, open wound of hers. Ozai was all she had left, and he turned his back on her after all she did for him. That was the last straw, and finally broke. You can add sexual assault or literally any kind of abuse to the story to explore a new theme/possibility, but it not existing in canon is not a plot-hole because the story works perfectly without it.

Imagine...

"Imagine Ozai killed Azulon and banished Ursa and Zuko so he could have Azula to himself, abused her, and then was mad when she brought Zuko home, with Mai and Ty Lee coming along"

I can imagine it. What I cannot is remember it. It can be a good, important, cathartic story, but is not the story we saw in the show. In the show we saw Ursa planning Azulon's death, not Ozai. We saw how his abuse was 99% purely psychological. We saw Ozai banish Zuko years after he supposedly got rid of the other two impediments of his abuse to Azula. We saw him not giving a damn about Mai and Ty Lee being around, welcoming Zuko home and rewarding him for "killing the Avatar", and then making Azula leave with them. And above all, we saw him shut Azula down the second she tried to have any kind of relationship with him that involved being anything more than a killing-machine.

Ozula can be an interesting plot, but said plot exists solely in theory and fanfics, not in the actual canon.