#tdp discourse

[thatartiststudios]

Okay so, mini rant here

So, I've been able to spend some time recently rewatching TDP with my family, mostly in prep for season 6.

And because we're really on time we just started season 2 (sarcasm), but anyway. We just finished episode 3, and while we were watching it, my dad had a theory, and me being the nerd that I am asked what it was. The regret was immediate.

He was saying that it's a possibility that they could come back around to Callum/Claudia, if perhaps, he went too far into dark magic, driving everyone else away.

Now look, I'm a huge fan of ship and let ship, (I'm a fan of the canon crack quartet, I know) but like, as someone who's shipped Rayllum pretty early on, and doesn't ship either them with anybody else, I will admit I was kind of offended (Read: repulsed).

And especially during Rayllum month, like, dude

Anyway, and he was really passionate about it too, not that I don't like sharing the fandom with my family and we all enjoy it together, it was just a curve ball I was not expecting.

Like I said, ship whoever you want to ship, but in my personal opinion his idea is blasphemous.

So... yeah, that's how my evening went

[hikaaa-bi]

probably a hot take but i don't really like ezran. i don't dislike him, he just feels like such a 2d character. maybe it's his voice acting (i'm sorry but it's so.. soulless?) or maybe it's the fact that his personality has no depth. like i get it, he's a child but i've seen a lot more interesting characters who were around the same age as him.

[thatartiststudios]

Possibly controversial rant below

Yeah... It is a little odd for sure but, like the people in the notes said, it is an American thing, I think. There is that point where they're 18+ and I go like "okay they can do what they want" to some degree. But, I personally have a unique perspective, coming from my religion.

Said perspective being that, yeah, they're gonna be attracted to each other, and that's not wrong by any means. It's natural. But, we, meaning me and my faith, believe in the law of chastity, committing only to one, and saving intimacy of that kind only for after marriage.

Now, this is all my personal beliefs, but through this lens, this is how I see it: Is it ok for there to be something beyond physical and emotional attraction between them? Of course. Will I choose to read or write sandwiches? No, but, hey, that's what the "don't like, don't read" tag is for after all.

And when it comes to my own writing, I obviously do write them sharing a bed several times, before and after the engagement and marriage milestones, but I do it as respectful, non-sexual intimacy. Because that's what I'm comfortable with. And that's what I like to read.

And I also have fully jumped on the "Rayla and Callum get nightmares often and need to be close to each other for comfort" bandwagon.

And I do see where everyone else's opinion is coming from, but this is just mine.

(No one kill me lol)

I'm gonna talk later about this but I can't believe Rayla and Callum being sexually attracted to each other is a controversial take for some people

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

if you want a mutually toxic and messed up relationship that isn't romanticized by the narrative:

if you want a relationship where both people make mistakes, but they actually work through their issues together:

if you want an actually good enemies to lovers sapphic ship (with actual fighting and almost killing each other and everything):

you don't have to settle for cat/radora :)

[hoothalcyon]

for the record, as a HUGE fan of Runaan, I am very excited to finally see the consequences of his actions shine through and for him to be the sole breaking point for an otherwise very forgiving and peaceful character!

[venice-1987]

An annoying phenomenon I've noticed

Alternatively: Whatever you do, don't go onto the TDP reddit

(Alternatively, let people ship things)

[self-spaghettification]

hmmm. you dooo make a good point, it is a very twisted definition of love that pertains more to ideals than people.

but im defense of him 💀 i think aaravos perceives everything on a more cosmic scale, and that certain things are justified be of what happened in the past (that we don’t fully know so this is just my faith in the show talking here). like possessing callum was a power play and a show of anger due to being brought back to the same place he had a view of for 300 years— he wanted to show them he wasn't in their power anymore, and show callum that despite how callum perceives dark magic as morally wrong, in the end it makes no difference, because he’s still reliant on dark magic in key moments just like other humans who see it as a good thing sometimes and not totally denouncible—basically pointing out their hypocrisy. like rayla would be hurt/dead twice without it. and to say aaravos is evil for helping humans and helping them discover dark magic and building a better world in their eyes is just a slap in the face to aaravos’s efforts (in his eyes). also there's a prevalent theme in the show that love is saying i would do anything for you. We will probably learn more about his s6 backstory to maybe justify this behavior and his lost love specifically (which i hope is humans) because something definitely broke him with how he was ugly sobbing in 6x01. I think Aaravos will be the top example of that theme

I am sorry, but I have a few problems trying to wrap my head around ‘Let’s conquer Xadia and kill everyone in our way’, ‘No problem with possessing Callums body and taunting his friends’,’fate worse than death’ ‘I swallowed her’ - Aaravos testing anyones ability to love. 

I mean with everything about him being a mystery we have yet to see a genuine comment on how he views his own actions but isn’t he supposed to be the xadian equivalent of the devil?

[moondustgleam]

Everytime Karim comes on screen I legit say "not this bitch baby again". Not even kidding. I have witnesses.

No hate to Karim stans or whatever but I hate him as much as I think he's hot.

[luniviravosshipper]

The most frustrating thing about liking complex and morally grey—maybe leaning a bit more towards morally black—characters is that you have to deal with both sides of people who try to simplify and reduce that character to a few superficial traits that either absolutely detest that character with all their being or worship them wholeheartedly as a result.

You can’t say you like a character because of their flaws or wrongdoings or else the side that hates that character will take your appreciation of those things as you trying to endorse them and will go out of their way to even suggest that those same flaws or wrongdoings must be reflected within your own life. Because how else could you endorse the actions or beliefs of such a terrible character? But the other side will also mistakenly perceive your appreciation of those imperfections in that character as you trying to justify them and will therefore use it to prove their own viewpoint. The viewpoint that the character wasn’t wrong in the first place and shouldn’t be seen as so complicated of a person because, in their mind, they never actually were. Anyone who sees them as complicated is “misunderstanding” or “misinterpreting” them and their intentions since their motivations were quite simple all along.

I, for whatever reason, am not allowed to like a character in media simply because they’re ambiguous. Because their nuance makes them feel more fleshed out, more real.

I must like them only because I see them as good, and I need to be able to argue why I see them as good.

That seems to be the overarching dispute between those who do and those who don’t like those types of characters. At least from what I’ve noticed.

The thing is, this isn’t even a case of whether or not a character is actually good. I mean, you can write one of the most vile, unarguably evil characters ever and they can still be seen as complex. And one character’s complexity shouldn’t undermine how “good” they might actually be.

I feel like people just hate characters that are written to be multi-dimensional because they themselves can’t as easily fit them into their black and white worldview of morality. It’s not so much of a matter of whether or not that character is actually right or good, it’s more about the fact that people can’t seem to be able to distinguish the difference between what makes a character complex and what ideals they uphold.

And, of course, the fact that people seem to think that you can only like things as long as they can fit within their own sense of morals and ethics. You can’t like something or someone that doesn’t reflect your own values according to them. And if you do, well… Apparently that must certainly say something about you.

Though, again, this is all just stuff I’ve picked up on overtime.

[thatartiststudios]

I need to settle a debate between my friends (my co-hosts today). We were discussing fallen angel!Callum, and I was saying that one of the main traits of fallen angels is that their wings turned from white to red, and that his wings are red. They clearly disagreed and now I need to settle this. Like, in the art book it shows it as brown but I swear it's red everywhere else. Anyway, don't mind me ranting.

[self-spaghettification]

‼️‼️📢 SAY IT LOUDER FOR THE PEOPLE IN THE BACK 🗣️🔥🔥

Callum/Viren parallels...Callum/Amaya parallels. There shouldn't be arguments on which we should take seriously and which are just coincidence. They can (and do) exist simultaneously for a purpose. It shows us that Callum can take after either of them. He is going to get to a point where he has to make a choice.

A) Follow in Viren's footsteps down that easy, but slippery, slope where the ends always justify the means, no matter how vile.

B) Follow Amaya's much more difficult path where he does what's necessary within the bounds of his morals.

[jelzorz]

I for one can't wait to see Ezran lose his shit

[snail-speed]

Looking back on TDP, it's weird that they frame /pol/ Regem as the one singular Xadian that's let their bigotry consume them.

His supremacist beliefs weren't any less extreme before the incident that left him blind, he's not the only Xadian that has strongarmed humans into submission, and he's definitely not the only Xadian that thinks of humans as inherently lesser. If anything, the only thing that separates him from the rest of Xadia's problem with bigotry is that he's saying (and doing) the quiet part out loud.

The show could've pointed this out. How Regem gets frequently regarded as an "extremist" when his views and actions are near identical to that of other powerful elves and dragons. That could've led to really interesting scenes on-screen and served as a decent commentary of how bigotry is talked about IRL. But nope. /pol/ Regem is somehow the worst Xadia has to offer, even though other dragons have been shown mass murdering humans on-screen, and even though elves orchestrate assassination attempts and regularly torture human POWs.

[its-leethee]

back to the garden

for my fellow claudiez enjoyers *blows a kiss*

[self-spaghettification]

1. I am aware the second chance was referring to s4–perhaps it wasn’t apt to highlight that then. The main thing there is how it’s a bump on his inner journey which, paired with the rest seems to be continuing over the next season too.

2. While it’s Viren’s thoughts as an unreliable narrator, Aaron still pointed that out and it just seemed pertinent to the rest of the arc they’re hinting at.

3. For the last one, the main piece of evidence, we know it’s not about the short story between them because that story primarily delves into the introspection behind the scene that was “not a very satisfying moment.” Aaron even says yes, Soren and Viren will get a chance to straight up confront each other outside of that moment in the reflections, and that the most meaningful interactions are yet to come.

All of this is obvious if you read through the whole pictures instead of just the highlighted bits but I suppose I could have highlighted it a bit better, so I’ll go back to edit that. Thanks!

@generouscomputernacho Addressing this:

1. While that's true, I think it'd be a dissatisfying ending and there's more potential to his arc, especially reconciling his mistakes/failures with his children rather than escape through death as a martyr of sorts, and l'd be glad if Wonderstorm chose to explore that.

3. It says most meaningful interactions, plural, so I don't think it's possible that's the only one.

We also have the whole redemption themes, picking a third option instead of believing you “have no choice” or are at “a horrifying crossroads” like, no. You have “two cakes” so I believe they will deliver on that.

Aaron and Devon also been very clear on how Viren and Soren will have more interactions plus at the very least, mysterious/open ended on whether he will survive, while in comparison, after S1 they were straightforward and shot down theories that Harrow would survive (re: Pip the bird)

Meanwhile, there are like 10 different ways Viren could survive/be revived. (Claudia, in one way or another. Sir Sparklepuff. Kim’dael blood pact. A storm. The sun not rising. Some other dark or star magic. Some loophole in what was said. Maybe him even changing his mind. Who knows. Point is, it’s still possible.

Lastly, the whole villain martyr thing has already been done plenty a time (looks at Shadow Weaver and Darth Vader immediately)

And a redemption arc would just be cooler to see, and I feel like if any show can pull it off, it’s TDP. Give me all of the awkward moments of reconciliation. All the pain and crying together. All the attempts to prove yourself that aren’t immediately accepted because you’ve still done terrible things in the past. All the distrust and vitriol. All the guilt being confronted. It’s going to be delicious and I am so here for it.

I don’t think Aaravos will have much use for Viren anymore (or for the time being at least!), but I believe that Viren’s not going to die.

This is due to the Discord S4 Q&As:

The creators hint multiple times at more things in store for Viren: having a redemption arc (him using dark magic being a “bump on his inner journey”) and arc with Soren, with “their most meaningful interaction yet to come” over the last few seasons.

From the Discord Hiatus Q&As, answered by Aaron Ehasz and Devon Giehl

[spop-romanticizes-abuse]

“catra is a complex poc” fuck that. here are some ACTUAL poc animated characters who are just as, if not more complex than catra. (pt. 2)

mako (the legend of korra) • mixed (japanese and chinese)

min-gi park (infinity train) • korean-canadian

zuko (avatar the last airbender) • japanese

caitlyn kiramman (arcane) • bi-racial (east asian and presumably scottish)

miles morales (spiderverse) • puerto rican, afro-latino

amaya (the dragon prince) • east asian (ambiguous)

marshal lee (fionna and cake) • half-black (technically, marceline is black too but i figured marshal would be considered better representation)

carmen sandiego (carmen sandiego) • hispanic (argentinean-mexican)

toph (avatar the last airbender) • chinese

callum (the dragon prince) • half asian (ambiguous)