#TDP fandom critical

[venice-1987]

An annoying phenomenon I've noticed

Alternatively: Whatever you do, don't go onto the TDP reddit

(Alternatively, let people ship things)

[ladyandherbooks]

I think that the idea that TDP has to have a singular main character has really negatively impacted the fandom. It's an ensemble cast with multiple main characters, it doesn't need or require this debate, and in fact, sometimes shows don't need 1 main character.

And since this started, we've seen a very vocal part of the fandom decide that Callum is the main character we've seen this view change how people engage with the show and within the fandom.

The most infamous victim of this is Rayla who gets relegated to MC's love interest who bounces between being the worst when she makes mistakes that hurt Callum or is a timid wallflower who needs Callum to be her Knight who saves her or stands up to her family for her because she can't (she can and has). It's such a deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of who Rayla actually is and shows that people don't actually see her a complicated person, they see her as a prop or a prize.

And it also probably explains why some fans also hate Rayla's family and the idea of them getting anymore screen time. If they don't see Rayla as her own character then they don't see the point of Rayla having important relationships outside of Callum. Because having those relationships will detract from her romantic relationship with Callum because she's only truly Callum's love interest to them.

I keep to my nicely curated Ruthari/Moon fam bubble so I don't see or hear about much of this for other characters or story arcs but I wouldn't be surprised if it has or is happening to other parts of the fandom too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was or had.

[luniviravosshipper]

You know what? I know that The Dragon Prince has a lot of flaws, (trust me, I complain a lot about them myself,) but it is genuinely so annoying to see people complain about the supposed lack of nuance and underlying messages in the show when they deliberately try to ignore them. People will literally take things completely at face value and only examine the details in this series on a surface level and then say dumb shit like “thEy MaKE eVErYthIng OUt tO Be BlaCk aNd wHiTE”. Like, of course it’s going to seem that way to you when you’re going out of your way to only try to see everything in the series as being black and white.

As much as I believe that many of the criticisms and critiques TDP receives are absolutely valid, the amount of discourse in this fandom over the same recycled rhetoric used against TDP is astonishingly ridiculous. Like, we should have already gone over this a thousand times. I don’t know how you guys are still so set in your misguided views of this show after 6 to 7 years and 6 seasons. I’m nearly 100% convinced that you guys are just purposely trying to misinterpret the themes of this series to fit your own narrative of how this series has apparently misrepresented the ideas that you personally wish it could portray. Even if those ideas aren’t actually good or make sense for the real focus points and intended takeaways. (Ahem. I’m looking at you guys on the TDP subreddit who somehow use the fact that TDP has trouble depicting the implied historical prejudice the elves have shown towards the humans and how unjust that is as a justification for how dark magic is actually “good” and totally “valid” for the humans to use against the elves in retaliation.)

I’m sorry that this might seem rather harsh. Again, I think a lot of the complaints that have been made already have plenty of value and reasoning behind them. But it is still frustrating to see just so many of the same complaints being made over and over again and not having anyone question their own takes and how there’s a chance that they might be inherently biased.

[sarasade]

Since I've been complaining about YouTube criticism a lot lately here is some positivity for a change: Here are some of my fave TDP YouTube videos. These creators would probably appreciate getting more eyeballs on their work. (listed from newest to oldest):

The Genius of the Dragon Prince

by wordswith dragons

A GREAT analysis of the the over all themes of TDP with an unique and well thought out perspective.

Viren’s Dream Analyzed: Claudia Witnessed Viren Seal Kapp’Ar - The Dragon Prince Theory

by Angeles Lunamoth

a really fun & cute theory channel. I'm not a lore person so I don't know if the theories are correct per se but speculation is fun anyway. (Also it's funny to me that this person didn't know what Twin Peaks is. Like yeah it's not the most relevant thing to reference.)

The Dragon Prince Is an Amazing Mess.

by XeroLmao

Don't let the title fool you it's mostly a very positive and humorous video. This is the most genuinely funny long-form TDP commentary video I've seen so far.

The Music of The Dragon Prince - Season 1 (themes & analysis) &

The Dragon Prince Music Analysis - S2 and S3

by Spelonberry

As someone who doesn't get music at all I didn't expect to like these videos this much! It's rare to see someone analyse a non-musical show's OST in such detail. it made me appreciate TDP's music even more. I can't believe I didn't notice that the Mirror theme/Aaravos' theme sounded so diffenrent because it's the only song in the OST that has piano in it.

The Dragon Prince: Why Fans Love Aaravos But Hate Viren

by Cartoon Junkies

the title made me giggle :)

How The Dragon Prince Captures the Spirit of ATLA

by Mother's Basement

A great video essay about the themes of grief and death in TDP. Once again a very unique perspective to analyse the show from. It's just so satisfying when someone puts together a really good argument, you know? I'm kind of tired of the ATLA comparisons after hearing them for over 5 years though. TDP itself really leans into them so what can you do.

----

I love VogJam too but he's VERY critical so his channel might not be for everyone. I'll gladly listen to any negative crit as long as the person doing it is funny and he's pretty damn hilarious. I don't mind hearing harsh critique of TDP at all like people do make good points.

[fujosh1dreamer]

If I have to look at one more crappy tier list on tdp twitter I'm gonna lose my mind.

Then they have the audacity to complain when someone doesn't agree with them. Like hello you're expressing your opinion on the internet.

If you're gonna cry about people not agreeing then don't post about it.

This Fandom worsens by the day.

[shadelorde]

it’s actually really fascinating watching the difference in reactions I get to certain posts in the ATLA fandom vs other fandoms.

Like, it feels like people are actively hunting you down in the ATLA fandom. Criticism of something in the show or the fandom either blows up among people who agree with you or gets immediately reactionary defensiveness.

But in other fandoms I’m in (I’m thinking specifically portal and f&c and tdp)? No one cares. No one does anything. I say something 90% of the fandom disagrees with and I get a few likes and maybe a reblog and that’s it.

It really feels like the ATLA fandom loves to circulate critical or angry posts while my other fandoms love to circulate things I enjoy or metas I make.

[t-n-c]

@saraptor

"Yeah I remember getting this vibe (as in it hit me like a truck) when Aaravos made that move on the Sunfire Queen, and then again with his comment to Zubeia. He's slimy in a way that's deeply uncomfortable. I always thought I was just looking into it too much tho (or being overly sensitive.) Like, i was making a load of jokes about sparklepuff but the "our child" comments kind of drive it home ajdhwhsjfhs"

I don't think you were looking too much into it or being overly sensitive. Further, I agree with you, Aaravos is slimy in those scenes--and that's one of the problems I have with him.

To be clear, him being slimy it's necessarily an issue for me by itself (there are plenty of good villains who're depicted as creeps, after all). My problem lies with the impression that we as the audience were supposed to see those scenes as him being "Cool, Powerful, and Sexy" and not anything negative--something that doesn't really fit if the writers' goal is to tell a complex and progressive story.

Another issue I have is that it feels like his sleaziness makes up his whole personality at this point. I can think of only two instances in the show where he seemed to express genuine, non-schemey emotions (i.e. the confusion he had when he admitted to Viren he didn't know where he was imprisoned and the rage he showed when he recounted to Viren how Avizandum/Thunder helped imprison him). Every other time he's present he's depicted as a Smirking Seductor (TM) or The Great Evil (TM)--neither of which are bad if you're writing a simple good vs evil story, but tdp keeps trying to be nuanced so having that kind of villain doesn't really work.

More tdp s5 spoilers under the cut

(TW: acts of coercion/violation will be mentioned)

With how imbalanced their relationship is and my prior concerns regarding Aaravos' history of coercive/violating behavior towards Viren, Sir Sparklepuff being established as Viren and Aaravos's child makes me reeeeeally uncomfortable.

[thrandilf]

#genuinely i think abt how dragon prince would have reigned surpreme over tumblr had this come out like 5 years ago idk like#there is no reason for dragon prince to have a comparatively small fandom when looking at the media it often gets compared to#and that it has canon whatever you wanna call This in it LMAO LIKE. WE HAVE SO MUCH QUEER REP FUN EXCELLENT WRITING AND YET lmao you're so right. truly a distortion in the fabric of the universe

LIKE LITERALLY IT'S SO?????

I feel like any time someone talks about wanting media with grey morality, nuance, explicit LGBT rep, disabled characters, fantasy that isn't White People Central- like all of that is found in The Dragon Prince and it knocks it out of the park. We have 5 seasons, it's confirmed to finish its run of 7 seasons and we're getting some spinoff media too like the video game and who knows what else, and I'm like. There are so many people I feel who would go WILD for this but

Even its connection with ATLA (which doesn't define TDP at all but I recognize it's some of what gets some people's foot in the door) doesn't seem to have pulled Big Fandom back in

The tumblr exodus really did damage plus the production hiatus seemed to land at such a time that the show is SUPERB better than it ever was before and it's always been good but fandom seems so much smaller than it used to be

I know TDP gets critical acclaim and we reach global Top 10 when new stuff drops but

As far as online fandom presence goes

Man. It's gotta be timing or something because it's so weird to me that there's like. Not even 1k fics on AO3 tagged Aaravos. The most popular TDP posts made nowadays peak at 4k MAX while sometimes I see art from 2019 that managed 30k notes like where is everyone -sobs-

I do love this fandom but I can't believe it isn't THE big thing I genuinely don't know why except timing and online spaces being hostile to fandom? Idk

[raayllum]

It's hard to tell because it's only been some posts but you sound somewhat frustrated with pre-season discussions happening elsewhere for The Dragon Prince? In any case, I thought you might appreciate the note that some people certifiably do like Rayla and Callum as characters perfectly well (I know I do at least and have since the start)?

I'm sure you're aware of it already but it felt somewhat like it'd help you not feel like you're typing into a void of dissent for enjoying them and the show concurrently? Even if I'd disliked the time skip in some capacities (I didn't particularly, I thought Rayla had good instincts wanting proof of death etc she just perhaps should have taken more backup for higher success chances if at all possible) Stella's introduction would have won me over entirely anyway.

There's no shame in being easily charmed by adorable animal characters, after all! She really is cute and also useful in limited capacities, like Bait.

If you wanted an actual ask with the above I suppose that I'm intrigued how similarly you thought Bait and Stella functioned as extended powers/company of their respective people and in the group?

Mostly on twitter (which is a reason to stay off twitter) but, in all honesty, it's mostly because it's annoying to see people use ship names or main tags for their complaining (I have "tdp critical" blacklisted or whatever for a reason y'know). Like as someone who truly deeply loves every character and every part of the show, when Claudia or Terry or Aaravos or anyone else gets promo I'm thrilled and intrigued and theorizing. And there's a minimal but loud portion(s) of the fandom who are either currently expressing (or have a track record) of annoyance when Callum and Rayla, as main characters and as the show's consistently most developed dynamic (which, I want to stress, has been the case even in s1 and s2) dare to be main characters and have marketing, there's an uproar of complaining. (Again, not the majority, but still baffles me that it exists at all.)

It'd be like if I complained about ATLA being primarily about Aang, its main character, for the majority of the show's run because I thought Toph needed more of a character arc (she's the least developed of the gaang bc she comes in s2 and has a general self-acceptance arc that doesn't need a ton of steps, for ex).

Sometimes favourite characters are there to have minimal screentime, execute their story purpose, and highlight other characters' arcs. The divide between characters where that's generally understood (Gren, Lain, Tiadrin, Opeli) vs characters where it's not (Aaravos in S4/S5, Runaan) again irks me because of the inconsistency, and therefore bias accordingly affecting judgement. Which maybe isn't fair - most people, myself included, are in fandom as a hobby, and for some people that means not evaluating their biases and not wanting to adjust their expectations; I just can't imagine doing anything else

I think Bait mostly serves as emotional support to Ezran and a lil guy to Talk to for Callum (2x05, 4x02) when a human character wouldn't quite make sense or is gone (Rayla is his usual confidant, for example). Stella is more interesting to me from a structure standpoint as 1) a character connected to the Star arcanum who thus far doesn't really need to be, so I'm curious there and 2) a juxtaposition to post-timeskip Rayla's "we can't save everyone" that her big heart and soft insides is still there, and still something worth listening to.

[tdp-fandom]

TDP SHIPPING POLL!

🔴CLICK HERE TO VOTE🔴 (Please share for more accurate results)

Hello and welcome to the second TDP Shipping Poll! It’s an online survey that will help us understand the shipping preferences of our fandom. I ran the first poll in 2020 after season 3 and now that season 5 is approaching, I decided it was time to run a new one. Two new ones, actually, as I would like to run one poll before and one - after the upcoming and later compare the results. 

So let’s start with this one. The poll will run from June 1st to July 1st. I’m leaving the exact hours vague because I might need an extra hour or two to finish things up. I also leave myself the right to extend the poll if such need arises (e.g. I am physically unable to close the poll or the number of votes is very low)

More information is on the poll itself and under cut

How does this work?

The poll consists of three main parts: general questions, opinions about specific ships and the final wrap up. The general section covers basic demographic information as well as your shipping preferences. The questions about specific ships are divided into 6 categories to make the lists more manageable. Please note that the 6th category is dedicated to controversial ships - adult/minor, incest and ships with animals. This category will be hidden and you will be able to see it if you choose to.

Which ships are included?

Basically, all ships I've encountered online as well as the ships that people asked me to add, with the only exception being ships with the characters from Tales of Xadia (at least for now). If a ship you like wasn't included, you can submit it manually at the end of the poll and I will include it in the next poll.

Why were problematic ships included?

They are part of our fandom's shipping preferences and without them the picture would be incomplete. As mentioned before, they are hidden and you won't accidentally see them.

However, it is worth pointing out that I only consider adult/minor, incest and animal ships to be problematic. The following may not be everyone's cup of tea, but they're perfectly normal ships: - young adult x late teen ships where the age difference between the young adult and the teen is 5 years or less;

- older adult x young adult ships no matter the age gap. Both characters are adults;

- human/dragon or elf/dragon ships when both characters are adults.

Please remember that just because something squicks you out, doesn't mean it's inherently problematic.

Where will the results be posted?

The results will be published on twitter, tumblr, TDP subreddit and dreamwidth. I will publish the results bit by bit, because there are a lot of different categories to work through.

Have any questions?

Feel free to DM me on the mentioned platforms. I also accept constructive criticism!

[an-actual-attack-helicopter]

Uncivil fandom controversy is real common. But some in the TDP fandom regarding Aaravos’s role in the story has caught my critical eye. I’ve seen some, frankly, quite poorly delivered takes on it. But it’s not an isolated incident. It’s even worse in the Vivziepop fandoms or a few particular gaming communities. So here are some guidelines for those looking to debate or discuss divisive topics productively, especially online. This can apply to any discussion and is for EVERYONE. I’m not targeting anyone in particular (at least not in this post). Alright, now that that’s over with…

1. Ad hominem (Google it)

Throwing personal insults around does not make you sound more convincing. It actually makes you sound less like you are trying to persuade, and more like you are insecure. It’s fine to have emotions but remember: DO NOT ATTACK THE PERSON, ATTACK THE POSITION THEY ARE MAINTAINING. If you’re too angry maybe take a walk, punch a pillow, I’m no therapist lol. Moving on.

2. Don’t be vague, be direct

That’s right, no sneak-dissing. Address the opposing party DIRECTLY and clearly. If you actually believe what you’re saying, you should have the balls to be direct. And if you don’t, you should do some self-reflection broski. Passive aggression and ambiguity in discussions only causes misunderstandings. And those can lead to broken friendships over something that wasn’t even about them. Or worse.

3. Understand, then respond

Often times people assume they are being attacked when they aren’t. It’s a common and understandable mistake. Perhaps someone made a statement that was vague enough for you to misinterpret due to your own personal demons (see number 2). But what’s the point in fighting an enemy that might not even be there? You can understand someone’s position better by asking them questions; kind of like a cross-examination but without the witness. It is VITAL for a worthwhile discussion and the crafting of effective, hard-hitting arguments.

[theredhairedmonkey]

Maybe it's just me, but it annoys me a lot when someone says that Rayla should own up and be held accountable for her actions, especially if those actions hurt people, and the fandom automatically jumps to the conclusion that they believe she should be punished and that she doesn't deserve anything good.

Nah, not just you fam.

Thankfully, I think what you’re describing is solely in TDP Tumblr, and only in one small part of it. Everywhere else I’ve seen in the TDP fandom—Twitter, YouTube, Reddit, Discord—people seem to have a fairly balanced and fair view of Rayla, where she’s not seen as a bad person but nevertheless did royally mess up and needs to own up to that. And that happens to be the view the show holds, given how many times what she did comes up (even in s5), and the fact that one of the showrunners stated she might apologize “more than once.”

I think the overreaction you’re describing comes from the fact that there’s quite a few fans out there who project onto Rayla and see her as an idealized version of themselves, and thus get really angry when she’s criticized, since it feels like it’s a criticism geared towards them.

I would have considered that maybe this reaction was due to some fans wanting to extend more grace and forgiveness to all the characters, but considering how gleeful and enthusiastic this same cohort is on punishing Callum for his (modest and justified) use of Dark Magic, I really don’t think that’s the case. It’s just yet another circumstance where it’s one standard for Rayla and another for everyone else.

[thetrapperstrap]

Thank you @violets-and-books for tagging me

1) 3 Ships— Ethari/Runaan (TDP), Eda/Raine (TOH), Caleb/Essek (Critical Role)

2) First Ever Ship— Dagur/Hiccup (HTTYD)

3) Last Song— I, Carrion by Hozier

4) Last Movie— Rio (2011) by Blue Sky

5) Currently Reading— Book 1: Moon by Aaron Ehasz & Melanie McGanney Ehasz[

6) Currently Watching— Helluva Boss

7) Currently Consuming— Nothing

8) Currently Craving— A Strawberry Smoothie

Tagging: @legend-of-the-fandoms @the-floral-skeleton @entropysoup @biblicallyaccuratecanine

[pumpkin-mush-and-seeds]

Fanfiction Recommendations: Camp Wildemount by cashewvesh

A very cute summer camp AU where the mighty nien are the teenage camp counselors and the bells hells are the campers! So far it only has one chapter but I think it's really cute so I think it is still worth checking out even if it's never updates.

There's also some small shipping even in this first chapter and it stays very sweet about it. The only Trigger Warning (Spoilers ahead) I would put is that there's some small transphobia that's mentioned and that Trent Ikithon is mentioned in one line. After that it's all fluff really.

Of course there's only one chapter as of the time of posting, so that's all this post covers.

Tags and summary from the fic below!

Chapters: 1/? Fandom: Critical Role (Web Series) Rating: Mature Warnings: No Archive Warnings Apply Relationships: Essek Thelyss/Caleb Widogast, Beauregard Lionett/Yasha, Yeza Brenatto/Nott | Veth Brenatto Characters: Caleb Widogast, Jester Lavorre, Beauregard Lionett, Mollymauk Tealeaf, Caduceus Clay, Fjord (Critical Role), Nott | Veth Brenatto, Yasha (Critical Role), Imogen Temult, Laudna (Critical Role), Fresh Cut Grass (Critical Role), Ashton Greymoore, Fearne Calloway, Orym (Critical Role), Dorian Storm, Chetney Pock O'Pea, Cyrus Wyvernwind, Ariks Eshteross, Essek Thelyss, Verin Thelyss, Percival "Percy" Fredrickstein Von Musel Klossowski de Rolo III, Vex'ahlia (Critical Role), Keyleth (Critical Role), Vax'ildan (Critical Role), Pike Trickfoot, Scanlan Shorthalt, Grog Strongjaw, Vesper Elaina de Rolo | Percy and Vex'ahlia's Child, Leona Pike de Rolo, Wolfe Kristoff de Rolo, Vax'ildan Frederick de Rolo, Gwendolyn Zahra Melanie Von Musel de Rolo, Wilhand'ildan Shorthalt, Juniper Shorthalt, Kaylie Shorthalt Additional Tags: Alternate Universe - Summer Camp, Modern Era, Alternate Universe - Modern with Magic, Bells Hells as kids, I got inspired by a TDP art piece and wrote… this, Internalized Transphobia, because Dorian’s parents suck Summary:

The fic is exactly as the title and tags say: a summer camp in Wildemount! The Mighty Nein are teenagers and camp counselors, while Bells Hells are kids attending the camp. Chetney is just the grumpy old man in the woods — don’t worry about it!

[fujosh1dreamer]

All the people posting spoilers for tdp s7 are fr fake fans.

This Fandom really fell to shit after season 3, gotta say I'm disappointed.

Also it doesn't matter how small of a spoiler it is I know yall remember all the crap that went down with toh and amphibia.

Do better.

[self-spaghettification]

This is very well written and made me sick upon realization.

i will say the arc was well written but it was unfair to the people who expected to see more from his character. but they accomplished what they intended clearly. the only real other blaring writing issue is how leola was handled — the last 15 minutes of the penultimate season? really? and there could have been so much more buildup and hints on the whole thing, as caprinae has also pointed out. hence, as reel james said… a near perfect season.

anyway there are a lot of connected red flags here and i may write more on this later— on how s6 was and how it connects to the writer behavior, show decisions, and fandom behavior. and if i end up writing/posting it, ofc, it will be tagged #tdp-critical and such so dont like dont read as per usual.

Okay, I have to get it out of my system. The thoughts I had on what The Dragon Prince did and why, deep down, it repulses me on a profound level. (I’ve shared these thoughts elsewhere but here’s my analysis on Viren’s arc and ending in season 6.)

The season begins with Viren waking from what was teased to be death (and viewers were left thinking he died for a year). He feels free and unburdened and has hope. Maybe things can be better, maybe he can change, maybe he can fix what he has broken.

Spoiler alert: He doesn’t even get off the starting block. From there it is a descent towards despair and his self-inflicted death.

After he wakes, he encounters his bloodied daughter Claudia. This shock smacks back to reality and he sees what he has caused. He realizes the cold truth: his daughter is better off without him so he leaves her despite her cries for him to stay. It is worth noting as he leaves, he openly acknowledges it may kill him—and he doesn’t much care if it does.

He goes back home to Katolis searching for anyone to talk to. He begs to speak to King Ezran and is denied and told he deserves “no mercy.” He reaches out to his son Soren in an attempt to reconcile, to apologize, and Soren accuses Viren of trying to manipulate him. Viren realizes he will receive no help or solace here as he’d hoped, and despairs.

His feeling of hopelessness is symbolized by the show panning to a fly trapped in a spider’s web about to be consumed. The abject image of being trapped with nowhere to go except death.

Next we see him, he is alone in his cell, penning a letter of his regrets, which is not that dissimilar to one's final thoughts in a suicide note. But he reconsiders. After all, this is self-indulgent pain to burden the living, so he burns it. His last thoughts and words gone.

It isn’t much after this moment Soren tells Viren the only thing he has of value to offer is his ability to do Dark Magic—the thing Viren has been running from, the thing he now hates, the thing that ruined his life. Throughout the show, dark magic can be allegorically read as a form of self-harm, done out of fear and trauma while causing lasting scars to the user. And Viren succumbs to it. He agrees. With the biggest expression of it: offering his own body to feed the spell. He stabs a knife into his own chest (reminiscent of Shakespearean suicide). And he dies.

What happened here wasn’t just a blaring example of a heel-face door slam where a character vying to change their life around and be better is coldly denied. It was also a suicide—a glorified one at that.

For a show supposedly about hope and forgiveness and breaking cycles, having a character who for three seasons is striving to walk a different path take his own life in an act of despair when he has nowhere else to go is... well. Sure is something. Nothing good in my world.