#TDP fandom critical

[tategaminu]

"Rayla is disguted at the thought of having 10 babies with Callum" Rayla is acting as any 18 yo girl would act if someone just said in front of her parents that her boyfriend wants to impregnate her 10 times. She's not disgusted about having kids at all, she's just surprised and cringing with Ethari's reaction. Shut the fck up twitter.

[venice-1987]

An annoying phenomenon I've noticed

Alternatively: Whatever you do, don't go onto the TDP reddit

(Alternatively, let people ship things)

[ladyandherbooks]

I think that the idea that TDP has to have a singular main character has really negatively impacted the fandom. It's an ensemble cast with multiple main characters, it doesn't need or require this debate, and in fact, sometimes shows don't need 1 main character.

And since this started, we've seen a very vocal part of the fandom decide that Callum is the main character we've seen this view change how people engage with the show and within the fandom.

The most infamous victim of this is Rayla who gets relegated to MC's love interest who bounces between being the worst when she makes mistakes that hurt Callum or is a timid wallflower who needs Callum to be her Knight who saves her or stands up to her family for her because she can't (she can and has). It's such a deliberate misunderstanding and misrepresentation of who Rayla actually is and shows that people don't actually see her a complicated person, they see her as a prop or a prize.

And it also probably explains why some fans also hate Rayla's family and the idea of them getting anymore screen time. If they don't see Rayla as her own character then they don't see the point of Rayla having important relationships outside of Callum. Because having those relationships will detract from her romantic relationship with Callum because she's only truly Callum's love interest to them.

I keep to my nicely curated Ruthari/Moon fam bubble so I don't see or hear about much of this for other characters or story arcs but I wouldn't be surprised if it has or is happening to other parts of the fandom too, but I wouldn't be surprised if it was or had.

[otter-and-terrier]

well said, i agree with every single word 👏👏👏

I keep reading takes from so many fans that Callum is just a "Rayla simp" that he's moping over Rayla or that he is just obsessed with her. I obviously don't think that's true, but I'm a little confused - I remember during Arc 1 the fandom LOVED that Callum wasn't as capable as Rayla for long stretches of time, there were tons of fanfiction centered on Rayla doing everything and Callum just sitting and drawing. So why did all of a sudden NOW people don't like him relying on her and call him a "simp" for doing that?

I think it boils down to he seems to challenge some viewers' expectations of what a male protagonist "should" be.

Basically it boils down to expectations rooted in toxic masculinity that create an artificial binary for male characters:

An awkward "beta" who lacks power, strength, or any ability to effect the plot in any meaningful way, but is endearing because of it, and who needs a strong female character for basic life functions.

A completely independent "alpha" who uses his powers for himself and makes the narrative bend to his will. He stands alone, he has no need for other people, who are there to just aid his purpose or oppose it.

Callum obviously never fell into either category (because TDP is still written far too well to fall into patriarchal BS), but that didn't stop many fans during Arc 1 from seeing Callum as "completely dependent" or "beta" coded - awkward, limited to two spells, relying on Rayla for protection and guidance through Xadia. This perception was flimsy but sturdy enough for viewers with traditional expectations.

But following the timeskip, Callum had become a person who defies these categories: powerful and confident yet compassionate and supportive. He demonstrates strength without domination, agency without selfishness, and love without abandoning his principles. And some fans HATED that.

On the one hand, like what you're describing, some fans are angry that a powerful Callum uses his abilities to support Rayla rather than just whatever he wants. Rayla "wronged" him, you see. Compassion and forgiveness? That's for lesser beings, he should force Rayla to "supplicate herself" or else be labeled a "simp." It's just impossible that Callum would love her regardless and support her.

But of course, on the other hand, there's the Snake Bois - the people who want Callum to be completely defined by his devotion to Rayla, to have his sense of right and wrong completely subjugated to their relationship, where he would no longer represent any independent perspective or values that might conflict with Rayla's.

Basically, this is the other end of the spectrum - whereas the first group see Callum as a failed alpha, this other group sees him as a failed beta. He HAS to be entirely devoted to her, and the best way to prove that is by having him sacrifice the entire world, and his own morality, for her. And people got Big Mad about that too (here and here, for example) for much of the same reason - if Callum is his own person but still compassionate and loving, then Rayllum is a relationship between two strong, independent characters who both maintain their own agency and moral frameworks.

Both groups worry about the same thing: a relationship between two strong, independent characters who maintain their own agency and moral frameworks while still deeply caring for each other.  Snake Bois worry about this because it might put him at odds with Rayla in certain situations, but the group you're talking about might be upset because it means power isn't just a means to dominate others. It's not just a tool for advancing yourself.

Instead, it's a means of recognizing your own humanity.

[a-very-sparkly-nerd]

People are taking ONE THING they were disappointed about in tdp s7 and using it to criticize the ENTIRE season- the entire show, really, and it's bonkers.

Fine, yes, it was an unsatisfying ending. But even from the very first concept, it's an OUTSTANDING show in every aspect of the word, and being upset with one part does not mean you can take it outside and shit on it. People worked hard on this, and it was still GOOD. Think of all the shows with more time and money that still managed to do worse.

Tdp is always fantastic and one bad thing is not reason to do a complete 180 and suddenly be a hater. Grow up.

[tategaminu]

Posting this here because Eugene liked it on twitter and Reddit is probably already plotting to take me down

[tategaminu]

"Familial Bonds are nothing compared to Romantic Bonds"

Except that TDP has never held that message, at all. In fact, all forms of love are treated as important in TDP. Romantic bonds overlap with familial bonds; Rayla and Callum are family, just as Janai and Amaya are family.

I honestly have no idea and can't understand why Amaya's scene is used to prove this point at all. It isn't meant to show that familial bonds are as important as opposed to in S7; it was meant to show Amaya's struggles after her sister died, how she was suffering alone like Rayla. Right after that, she explains how Janai, her romantic partner, helped her. She didn’t have to do everything alone, just like Rayla doesn’t have to. This scene is showing that you should trust and share your burdens with your loved ones, with your closest companion in this case.

"To be fair, the problem started in season 6, where Callum's 'One Truth' isn't a deep love, or protectiveness, of loved ones; it's just Rayla"

It's amazing how this is still controversial to some people. Yes, overall love could have been Callum's one truth, but we are talking about the ONE truth, which is, in fact, deep love—deep love for a specific person, but still love. Why would it be protectiveness? His one truth being about… protection? He loves his family, but he mostly loves Ezran and Rayla. Rayla is just special to him, so…

Let's check Callum's character and why Rayla being his one truth makes total sense:

Callum started as a solitary boy who lost both of his biological parents at a young age and was living as a step-prince in a castle. He had a strained relationship with his stepdad, struggled with being a prince, and had only two friends in his life, with whom he barely had any relationship—Soren even bullying him. He was a very lonely person, with his closest bond being with his little brother. And while that may be cute, there’s only so much bond or common ground we can have with a 5-year-younger brother.

What changed this exactly? Rayla. The day Rayla came into his life was the day his life changed forever. Rayla was the first one to call him a mage; she was always there, listening to him, not caring at all about his prince status. They both bonded and became best friends quickly, something neither of them had in their lives before meeting each other. They went through a lot together in a short period of time. Rayla never doubted him or his abilities. Rayla showed him real courage and inspired him to get better. She was the indirect reason he could master the air arcanum.

Rayla must have been the first person who spoke so highly of Callum, the first one to call him her best friend.

They both grew attached to each other so quickly because they finally found someone who had unconditional love for the other. Before meeting Rayla, absolutely nobody had the confidence in him that she did. Neither of them had someone who was so loyal to them before meeting each other.

Callum became miserable in those two years without her, and once she returned, his feelings for her were complicated. But when he found his one truth, his feelings finally became clear, allowing him to take the next step.

Why wouldn’t his feelings for her be his one truth? He was dealing with a major imposter syndrome throughout the entire arc, but you know who never had doubts about him? Her.

Callum used to think he was nothing, but Rayla thinks he's everything. They are both people with self-worth issues who found someone who loved the other unconditionally.

Also, to add, Janai and Amaya are each other's one truths, just like Callum and Rayla, but apparently, this is only Rayllum's problem for some reason, even though they have had more development as individuals and as a couple than Janai and Amaya.

"There's a difference between sharing all of yourself with the one you love, and giving up yourself for the one you love."

Callum hasn’t given himself up for her—like, where exactly? In fact, it’s the complete opposite. By finding his one truth (his love for her), he was able to embrace his own identity as well, because dark magic was consuming his spirit and spiraling his mind into self-doubt and hatred. They both have the goal of protecting each other to the point of sacrificing their happiness or lives, as long as the other is okay, but it’s equal.

"You are you; a young man who happens to be in love with a young elf named Rayla. You are not vessel of love specifically made for Rayla."

Once again, where is it stated or shown that he's a vessel specifically made for Rayla? Rayla doesn’t even treat him that way; she doesn’t see him as her love vessel, she sees him as his own person. He is his own person, and the narrative never reduces him (or Rayla) to just love interests.

The core of Callum's character is that he cares more about his loved ones than the kingdom or himself. In fact, he chooses to sacrifice himself to save them all, and if it had meant sacrificing himself to save her, he would have done it too—because he loves her, not because he's her love vessel (what a way to describe something).

"You can live with her happiness in mind, you can adjust your goals for the sake of your lives together, but you still need to have an identity outside of her."

Once again, when does he not have an identity outside of her? Callum is a young man who loves doing magic; he has his own personality and arc, just like her. It just so happens that their developments are intertwined. In fact, this season and previous seasons have been linked to the theme of identity (as shown, for example, by Callum choosing his own destiny, which she respects even if it means sacrificing her own heart).

"If you like Rayllum, awesome! Enjoy, just don’t use it as a model for your own relationships"

I mean… that's the point?? I don't think you should overall use a fictional couple as a model for your own relationships; fictional stuff is fictional stuff. Of course, some couples out there are good enough to take as an example. But we’re talking about a magical boy who threw himself off a cliff for his girl — that can’t happen in real life. And honestly, Rayllum is actually a very healthy couple. Codependent? Yes, but we’re talking about two people with abandonment issues who have survived a ton of stuff together; they mostly have each other.

And Rayllum is actually a very good model, if you know what to take out of them. They both support each other, listen to each other, save each other, respect each other's decisions, and enjoy spending time together. You know what toxic couples do? None of these things. You have to be equal with your partner, and Rayllum is. In a world full of Edwards and Bellas, why wouldn't you take Rayla and Callum as an example? In fact, a lot of people could learn from them. A lot of men could learn from Callum about how to treat a girl. He's a great example of a good partner and healthy masculinity.

The goal for fictional couples is also to be entertaining; their being codependent makes it even more interesting for a lot of us, and it makes a lot of sense in their narrative. Shouldn't a fictional couple be more fun and interesting than a real-life one? That's what fiction is for.

"it’s not healthy to be so hyper fixated on your partner that you burn other loving healthy relationships without serious consideration."

Except that Callum hasn't burned his relationship with Ezran or any other person.

Callum did betray Ezran, yes, but that doesn't mean he did it without serious consideration. As he stated, Ezran will always be his brother; there's a difference between his status as high mage and being Ezran's brother. Callum wasn't cutting ties with him or renouncing their bond. Callum never showed any special interest in being a high mage, while he showed great love for Ezran.

Why did he betray Ezran then? Easy: just because he was his brother doesn’t mean he had to agree with him. Ezran had every right to be mad, but he was holding Runaan hostage (the father of their best friend) when he forgave Zubeia, the main reason their father died. Callum had a point about the cycle of violence, something the show is very clear about: choosing forgiveness and stopping hate.

Like Callum makes his point here, things are complicated.

Then Callum goes to help Rayla because what was he supposed to do? Let her get hurt or worse, killed? (Ezran wouldn’t have killed her, but he could have killed Runaan, her father—the one they both fought so hard to bring back).

Now, Callum and Rayla both have abandonment issues. They suffered for two years without each other. While she’s more willing to separate from him because she’s really self-sacrificial, they both hate the thought. Callum has stated he doesn’t want to be separated from her; they are both happy with each other.

And one of the narratives these two hold is that they do things together, as a team, and that's a very good message. You don't have to do everything alone; you can ask for help.

Now, another thing is that in this situation (and overall), Ezran has Soren, Corvus, Opeli, and Zym, but Rayla only had Callum by her side. It wouldn't have made sense for his character and loyalty to side with his brother on this, especially in a situation that hurt Rayla and that he didn’t even agree with.

Callum choosing to go with her and betray Ezran made complete sense for his character.

TDP emphasizes romance a lot, but also doesn't dismiss other kinds of relationships. In fact, it acknowledges all forms of love—familial, platonic, romantic... The reason Aaravos wants to bring pain to the world is because of the death of his daughter, which the series also shows: that love can make you do both good and bad things. This is something they also explore with Rayllum. Love can save you and can doom you (Rayla has both saved and doomed Callum, for example).

Whatever kind of relationship is more important and works better depends on the characters themselves. For Callum, his main relationship is Rayla, a romantic one; for Aaravos, it's a familial one. TDP's message wasn't that romantic relationships are superior, but that love overall is what motivates someone.

TDP Season 5: Familial Bonds are as essential as Romantic Bonds

TDP Season 7: Familial Bonds are nothing compared to Romantic Bonds.

To be fair, the problem started in season 6, where Callum's 'One Truth' isn't a deep love, or protectiveness, of loved ones; it's just Rayla. Which, I just want to bring the boy in close and tell him: "There's a difference between sharing all of yourself with the one you love, and giving up yourself for the one you love. You are you; a young man who happens to be in love with a young elf named Rayla. You are not vessel of love specifically made for Rayla. You can live with her happiness in mind, you can adjust your goals for the sake of your lives together, but you still need to have an identity outside of her."

And this is just another example of them coming up with a really good concept, just to throw it away later. It's not as big as 'it's a circle of violence, but not giving Xadia their fair share of blame', or 'it takes time and effort to get over upprejudice, except when it doesn’t for time constraints and/or would interfere with cute domestic moments', but I still think it needs to be shared.

(If you like Rayllum, awesome! Enjoy, just don’t use it as a model for your own relationships, it’s not healthy to be so hyper fixated on your partner that you burn other loving healthy relationships without serious consideration.)

[venice-1987]

I feel like Ezran would get a lot more grace within the show and the fandom both if they actually leaned into the fact that this is a terrified and angry 12 year old stressed out about how he is going to protect his kingdom that he is simultaneously grieving. Emphasis on terrified.

He could advocate for peace easily from a peaceful throne. That is being tested, and we did get quiet moments between king Ezran and Queen Aanya talking about ruling, but I think he could have also benefitted from quiet moments between kid Ezran and his adult support system (Soren and Corvus).

I also think this would have made the Harrow Bird reveal a bit more impactful. There are two facets to Ezran: him as a king, and him as a kid, which conflict so heavily. Him being tested like this and realizing that Soren was right in saying he was too young for this, and that there is a solution.

[lawchan89]

So y’all are freaking out about Arc 3 Rayllum getting married and having babies at the “tender age” of 24-25, and how “they should be in their 30s before having kids”— and yet I haven’t heard a fucking peep about Karim and Miyana:

— Likely not being 30 years old yet, and

— Not confirmed to be married or engaged

And having twins, and y’all are fine with it!

Fuck y’all and your nasty ass puritanical hypocrisy

[atomic-bomn]

The more and more information we gain about Archdragons and Xadia, makes me hate them more. Whether it be the writing or just something else.

Like, why were we led to believe the complete destruction and attempted genocide of Elarion and humans was completely justified??

"Oh but dark magic" I don't give a fuck "They hunted the unicorn to extinction" I don't give a fuck. "They poached creatures" I. Don't. Give. A. Fuck.

The kicker is most people in the story, human or otherwise would agree it was justified for the single reason of dark magic bad, When in reality humans were just tired of fucking starving. Elves are just whiny bastards who want to be the top dogs and when they realized it was being challenged they got pissy, When the Dragons realized their Pride and Joy elves were pissy they took it out on the humans.

They kept the lush and fertile lands and kicked humans to the barren lands in a full effort to have them die slowly.

ie ethnic cleansing

Humans are the victims all around in the world of the dragon prince. Elves and archdragons started or kicked off most issues. Vent over I will accept no criticism.

Fuck you Sol Regem fuck you choke

[flaming-thing]

!!

If I can share this, ‘cause I know that there’s a lot of feelings going around right now.

I think season 7 was the best season in arc 2. I just don’t think as a finale it warrants it as being considered the best. But if we don’t consider it to be one, I was pretty satisfied with this season overall. And I just don’t think the fact that there was some things left open in the end should deter it from being considered a good season in general.

Really, my biggest complaints about this season were about how it confirms what I already feel negatively in regards to previous seasons (like the handling of Viren’s death for one), some pacing issues that it repeated from previous seasons, the handling of one arc because I thought they could have done more/better then what they gave us (that would be Terry’s), and how it functions as a finale to the series. But even considering all those feelings… It wasn’t all that bad.

I still have mixed feelings about seasons 5 and 6 that I don’t feel like I’m in the majority of the fandom for having. So there’s something funny about seeing people who have largely been very supportive of this series up to this point, a lot of season 4 defenders here included, suddenly start to grow very agitated with the series finale.

I absolutely understand the criticisms it gets, and I definitely feel like a lot of them are well deserved. But I also feel that if we want arc 3 to happen… we should still continue to be supportive of the series and be mindful of why they made the choices they did in season 7. Sure, they could have given the series a more conclusive ending knowing that the possibility of an arc 3 being granted could have been unlikely, but there was also other things that they simply had to leave open if they wanted to continue the story. Please be understanding of that.

This isn’t to say to keep your commentary to yourself, but just to be more understanding when sharing your commentary. If you guys are so afraid that there won’t be an arc 3, then don’t actively tear down the show completely over minor grievances with it when that creates even more of a likelihood of arc 3 not happening.

I’ve already seen several big content creators in the fandom on other social media platforms not only threaten to leave the TDP fandom entirely over this season but also go as far as to suggest that the show no longer deserves a 3rd arc and should no longer be supported in its pursuit to get it simply because of their dislike for this last season.

Regardless of whatever takes on this season you might have, some of the outrage I’m seeing is a little extreme. Again, not saying by any means to avoid critiquing the show till we get confirmation of another arc, but there is definitely ways to go about publicly sharing your criticisms without immediately reacting so strongly against the series and its creators to the point you’re not even offering criticism you’re just being insulting. At that point, it’s no longer fun at all for either the creators or the show’s fandom to deal with, let alone fair to force them to deal with.

[luniviravosshipper]

You all are just trying to find reasons to whine about the Stella plush.

“Guess she was just a merch plug all along.” What? You know how long it’s been since she was first introduced as a character? You think the only real reason they did was to merchandise her? Like they were just secretly plotting and planning this entire time for her to be merchandised 3 years later and that was her entire purpose lol.

Like, I genuinely cannot fathom how people could seriously be so upset over this. I mean, I’ve even heard a lot of people say the complete opposite and how they really wish TDP had more merch. This reaction I’m seeing is so weird and I cannot imagine it being anything other than forced.

“Maybe it’s just me.” No, the problem is that it’s literally not just you. Literally every major TDP artist I’m seeing on Insta except for one is saying stuff like this, and that’s why I feel like this is a forced reaction.

Also why is it weird to get merch directly from the show? Do you think it’s weird… to support a show you like?

[mxxnlightbae08]

Maybe because you guys are hating. Hope this helps! 💕💕💕

[gjsxj0]

the dragon prince's last season was below mediocre, the finale was terrible and the major reveal was the worst thing i have ever witnessed. this post is long and strongly worded and typed up at midnight.

harrow being in pip was predicted since s1. everyone knew because they laid it out clear as day. it was intentionally set up and like all good bits of writing, the audience sees it and knows what is coming up.

why 6+ years into tdp's lifecycle was it made canon. after years of not answering it or just giving "half truths" (aaravos much?) all to just say "screw the audience" and make it confirmed in a scene that has its own issues and it was AFTER A TWO YEAR TIME SKIP.

not only that, it ruins harrow's and viren's relationship to such a degree i can only assume the creators just hated these two in the end. harrow being in pip implies:

viren intentionally did it without harrow's consent, costing harrow his autonomy whilst also making viren never actually caring about harrow in the end (which the canon does not support, i have eyes and reading comprehension). this begs the question: HOW COULD VIREN NOT HAVE UNFINISHED BUSINESS aka show up in the inbetween? harrow was the one relationship he cherished and then they pull this stunt and said "actually no viren is terrible even tho he DIED saving a kingdom that never deserved him."

viren did it and harrow WANTED it to happen which makes harrow look even WORSE than he was already set up to be. a king who struggles with the responsibilities and weight of his crown and is tired of these issues that he... kind of lets happen. it was interesting to see where it goes but wow this makes harrow an asshole if he just flew out of that window and did NOT come back to katolis for over 2 years.

viren... didn't?? do it??? which doesn't make sense because this show never has a mage unless its callum or its for plot convenience (and they die or are a one off character) and we are just back at square one. if they go this route, i will have to applaud the audacity for them thinking their audience is really that stupid.

not to mention the whole "black person spends a good chunk of time in an animal form" trope, which they should have just dealt with early on.

pip theory being canon in a two year time skip... let's pretend i accept this for a second:

they said arc 3 would be another time skip. 7-12 years possible. what the fuck. so harrow is never coming back (he said fuck katolis or he is DEAD EITHER WAY) or its gonna be relegated to a graphic novel or book (if they even complete the draft in time for publication YEAH WE KNOW WHY BOOK 3 NEVER HAPPENED). and even then. the original 2 year time skip. there is not going to be any actual explanation for it just like there was no good reason for rayla to leave callum bc there will be nothing to show for it.

they really couldn't just let this one theory never get addressed. it could have been a poorly done red herring but no. this is a massive fuck you to everyone that watched the show since day 1.

that interview on cartoon universe's youtube page where they just admitted they were tired of being asked where harrow was for so long they just did it. it was intentional and it was to spit in our faces.

their relationship means barely anything now, its too late in the story for them to fix this NOT LIKE THIS SHOW COMMITS TO ANYTHING ANYWAY and i hope aaron ehasz and justin richmond never write another cartoon again.

[otter-and-terrier]

exactlyyyyyyyyyyy ppl are so stupid sometimes 😔

I saw someone say that they ruined Rayla's character in arc 2, one reason being when she ran off from the Keeper and ran to Callum to cry.

...and like...

Do you not go to someone you love (romantically or platonically) when you feel bad and they are around to give you the support you need?

Have you not felt so guilty for something that you would do anything to make it right, even when you feel like you were in the right?

Do you not cry over mistakes you've made?

DO YOU NOT FEEL EMOTIONS?!

[sarasade]

Since I've been complaining about YouTube criticism a lot lately here is some positivity for a change: Here are some of my fave TDP YouTube videos. These creators would probably appreciate getting more eyeballs on their work. (listed from newest to oldest):

The Genius of the Dragon Prince

by wordswith dragons

A GREAT analysis of the the over all themes of TDP with an unique and well thought out perspective.

Viren’s Dream Analyzed: Claudia Witnessed Viren Seal Kapp’Ar - The Dragon Prince Theory

by Angeles Lunamoth

a really fun & cute theory channel. I'm not a lore person so I don't know if the theories are correct per se but speculation is fun anyway. (Also it's funny to me that this person didn't know what Twin Peaks is. Like yeah it's not the most relevant thing to reference.)

The Dragon Prince Is an Amazing Mess.

by XeroLmao

Don't let the title fool you it's mostly a very positive and humorous video. This is the most genuinely funny long-form TDP commentary video I've seen so far.

The Music of The Dragon Prince - Season 1 (themes & analysis) &

The Dragon Prince Music Analysis - S2 and S3

by Spelonberry

As someone who doesn't get music at all I didn't expect to like these videos this much! It's rare to see someone analyse a non-musical show's OST in such detail. it made me appreciate TDP's music even more. I can't believe I didn't notice that the Mirror theme/Aaravos' theme sounded so diffenrent because it's the only song in the OST that has piano in it.

The Dragon Prince: Why Fans Love Aaravos But Hate Viren

by Cartoon Junkies

the title made me giggle :)

How The Dragon Prince Captures the Spirit of ATLA

by Mother's Basement

A great video essay about the themes of grief and death in TDP. Once again a very unique perspective to analyse the show from. It's just so satisfying when someone puts together a really good argument, you know? I'm kind of tired of the ATLA comparisons after hearing them for over 5 years though. TDP itself really leans into them so what can you do.

----

I love VogJam too but he's VERY critical so his channel might not be for everyone. I'll gladly listen to any negative crit as long as the person doing it is funny and he's pretty damn hilarious. I don't mind hearing harsh critique of TDP at all like people do make good points.