#stop throwing the term ableist around

[boneywones]

the infantilisation of papyrus is not his canon self. please watch a video analysis of his character before you start saying stuff like this. and, if im looking at this message correctly, nobody swears in undertale, so why would papyrus? yes papyrus is kind but not “innocent”, you’re literally proving peoples points by saying that he is 😭😭 papyrus is a grown ass man that literally owns a house with his brother and HAS access to weapons.

nobody is trying to make him out to be a super edgy guy, they’re just pointing out that the implications of making sans out to be a parental supervisor for papyrus and he would never swear or be rude is infantilisation and teetering over the edge of ableism.

signed, an autistic person

anyway i agree with op, papyrus would love those images, it reminds me of the skeleton flag he has hanging up in his room

(plus, underfell is more than just everyone being edgy, mean and wanting to kill everyone)

(forgot to add this but yeah, papyrus and the other main cast has technically swore if you add the art book contents to its main contents, which is the game. also, flowey is shown swearing in other pages)

papyrus would definitely fw this genre of images

[vraska-theunseen]

i really really really hate this post it's so personally irritating to me bc like why is this your example why are you defending the sanctity of fucking email. why are you saying it's embarrassing to not be able to write an email. it's a fucking email. i get really anxious and im better about it now but in high school i would get so nervous sending emails i would have to have my teachers coach me tell me exactly what to say because i just had no idea how to phrase things how to ask for what i was trying to ask for and communicate it it was the same with papers i had like a paranoia about being wrong and being misinterpreted and so I just couldn't think of how to structure my sentences in the way i thought they should be that would communicate what i needed to correctly and i would get anxious thinking about how if i said something the teacher would get an idea about how i think and the opinions i have and draw conclusions about me and if what i said wasn't perfectly articulated to mean what i mean they would think something of me that was wrong and that was terrifying so i just wouldn't write papers i wouldn't write emails i would get 0s i would cause complications and i wouodnt be able to explain to people trying to help me why i didn't do it i just couldn't and i don't think i would have ever used chatgpt to write an essay for me if it was an option it wouldn't be my own words and opinion and that's exactly what i was anxious about in the first place but i might've used an email prompt to let me know what is a normal response and help me structure a sentence like what is with this fucking sentiment of "what do you mean you can't do this yourself that's embarassing" why are you people fucking agreeing with something saying that. hating ai ubiquitously no matter what without thinking about why rots your brain

[infiniteglitterfall]

psycho delulu sociopathic narcissist insults

You know, Tumblr is the first place I ever saw people saying:

"Stop using psychotic as an insult. I have psychosis and it just means I have auditory/visual hallucinations.

"I know they're not real. It doesn't mean I know less than you. It doesn't mean I understand less than you. It doesn't make my opinions worth less than yours. It doesn't make me worth less than you."

This was really, really helpful when my bff-since-kindergarten told me about having psychosis. I knew what that was. I could skip right past the whole rack of panicked ableist assumptions.

But it clearly hasn't spread as far as it should.

And lately, I've seen people bringing back the R word, along with calling people "delulu" and "psycho" and all the other shit above.

There's always some level of debate about whether it matters if people use ableist terms. The debate basically boils down to, "I don't care what they call me, I care how they treat me. We need people to stand up for our rights and support us, not to get hung up on vocabulary and ignore our actual lives."

And sure. It's like any slur. If a cis person is really supportive and respectful of me, I'm not that worried about whether they use my pronouns correctly or whether they know all the right trans terms.

But on the flip side: often the only thing I know about someone is whether they're throwing around slurs and ignoring pronouns, or speaking about us respectfully.

If you call me "delulu" because I tell you something you don't want to believe, or "psycho" for disagreeing with you politically, what you're telling me is:

You're so sure you're right about everything, you think disagreeing with you should be a diagnosable mental illness.

You don't believe people with certain disabilities.

(Yes, even if you're disabled. Yes, even if you're mentally ill. Plenty of people with less stigmatized mental illnesses, or other disabilities, still buy into the stigmas around personality disorders, schizophrenia, intellectual disabilities, developmental disorders, cerebral palsy, and communication disorders, and probably others I didn't think of.)

You think of people with certain disabilities as automatically understanding and reasoning less than you, to the point that it's fine to openly dismiss anything they say.

You think of people with certain other disabilities as inherently being Bad People.

You're so comfortable in those assumptions that when anyone disagrees with you on an issue you feel strongly about, you assume they're either incapable of understanding and reasoning, or they're a Bad Person. And you automatically use the diagnostic labels you associate with those things to dismiss them.

I don't think people realize how much they're revealing about themselves when they use these things as insults.

It's like any bias we pick up from the world around us. We have to actually do the work to notice it, unpack it, and unlearn it.

I hope that this post can encourage people to do more of that work around ableism.

[liedownquisition]

Oh boy. You know, I really love how you've cut some of those panels out. Here's a little more context on Oliver very clearly laying a solid chunk of what's wrong with Jason at Bruce's feet:

And you know what, you're right! No one's ever obligated to forgive everyone or anyone ever! But also guess what! You're also ignoring like... a lot of stuff actually. You think the batarang is the only thing people have an issue with.... as if it exists in a vacuum as the only thing Bruce has ever done wrong to Jason ever? Because most people aren't so much mad over a single incident as we are over it happening again and again and again.

RHATO Rebirth v2 #25

Batman and Robin uhhh Issue 6 I think? Going off the omnibus, sorry

Batman #138* *yes I'm aware that Bruce is being influenced by "Zur-En-Arr" in this, but honestly? I've always felt that this & the Batman & Robin one were some of the more in-character examples of Bruce's flaws manifesting in abusive ways

Or maybe some of these are too recent. Let's talk my personal favorite little beef that I like to contrast with Ollie:

Batman #424-425 The Diplomat's Son & Consequences

Ollie, on the other hand, when his charge commits a murder that Ollie thought could be prevented:

Now there's something to be said for how the writers for these stories had very different opinions of the sidekicks that were responsible, Starlin, for example, fucking hated Jason (Well, Robin in general) and wanted him dead, and it's deliberately set up to be a question of whether or not Jason actually did. Regardless, Bruce pretty cleanly absolves himself of any wrongdoing in his upbringing of Jason, whereas Ollie takes responsibility for Mia being in the position that she even could/would make that kind of call. And at this point, Oliver had Mia with him for a lot less time than Bruce had had Jason.

If it was Just the batarang, then, frankly, I think it's be a lot less controversial. This isn't even everything OR the worst panels from those incidents!!! I'm just cherrypicking, just like you were. And you know what, let me add this:

According to Bruce, Ollie's a pretty forgiving guy, it looks like. And if we're taking more Rebirth into account, Oliver was pretty chill about Cheshire hanging out with his family, and she's definitely caused her fair share of problems for the family and world at large on scales Jason has yet to even touch*, regardless of if she's Lian's mom. *some of Jade's crimes are dubiously canon, but with the reality mashing from Convergence in a way all of it is.

Ollie is a lot of hot air. I love the man, and he'll rip anyone and everyone a new one at the drop of a hat for any godsdamned reason. Pretty sure he's called Bruce and Barry and Hal all fascists before, so he has no hesitation in saying the absolute worst about people while... still having a relatively decent relationship with them in the long run, actually. Hal even used to be a villain for a while and Oliver was forced to kill him and now they're buds again. An alternate version of Hal that is STILL that villain continues to torment Oliver and his family.

Would Jason need to actually work to earn forgiveness from the Arrows? Probably. But he's still friends with Roy now (yes, CURRENTLY. AS HE HAS BEEN FOR OVER A DECADE he hasn't even been features in much w/ Roy lately but it has been REFERENCED), and even if it was small that olive branch of helping Roy and Lian reunite (and their general friendship, actually) isn't something that Ollie would just brush off, just as he wouldn't just brush off the events of Seeing Red.

But, in the grand scheme of things, kidnapping her, sending him on a wild goose chase across town, "having a talk" (mia's words) then letting her leave unharmed, and blowing up a building behind her is honestly small potatoes in comparison to the Repeated incidents of textbook abusive relationships that goes on between Bruce and Jason. (And I cannot overemphasize how little Mia was injured by this incident.)

Of course Olie was talking shit about Jason in the interim, Red Hood is incredibly dangerous, and he's scared for her safety. You can SEE how stumped he is by her coming out of this completely unharmed. Plus! This is hot on the heels of her return after the Dr Light Incident, and Ollie has every right to be scared out of his fucking mind.

But when it comes down to it, Mia Was Not Harmed. I will not stop saying that. Because in the world of villains and superheroes and red Hood doing significantly worse shit to other characters, this is NOTHING. Even actually within Arrow comics???? This WAS NOTHING.

And oh my god "He did the same thing Joker did" okay so where do I start with this

a) that was the point, obviously.

b) he didn't, actually.

c) that was the worst description of both incidents I've ever read in my entire life. Joker didn't "take a kid from his father and torture him and make him doubt his place in his family" unless you're talking about the fucking Arkham 'verse!

c2) actually let's break down that description: "took a kid from their father figure" Joker didn't take Jason, he was sold out by his mom. "Beat them up" understatement, but go off. "Tortured them mentally about their place in their family" not really. Joker just beat him nearly to death laughing for the most part, Jason's doubts about it came after he came back to life and saw news that Joker was still alive.

d) hmmm I wonder who said it was just Jason messing with Bruce...

Hm. Yeah. Bruce is definitely the most reliable source for Jason's intentions. I mean, was it generally to spite Bruce? Probably, yeah. But Jason's very good at multitasking and layering his intentions.

e) once again, Mia was not harmed. Jason spent most of their sparring match on the defensive, And only hit Her, physically, like, four times? and all of them in retaliation to her getting in close and hitting him first*? (And, trust me, if Jason can pull the hypercompetent bullshit that is "Seemingly shooting wildly but managing to hit nothing but THE STRING OF MIA'S BOW while also accounting for how she'd dodge" he could do sooooo much worse.) Notably, he briefly had her pinned to the floor with his hands around her throat... and then let up just after he held it long enough to make his point *Note: this is not a justification, she had every reason to fight back with everything she had and what Jason does is very fucked up on like...a normalscale. But it's worth noting he was Very Visibly and outright explicitly "teaching" her throughout it and it's soooo much less than any other villain has done to her.

This doesn't read to me "Making her doubt her place in her family" so much as "Emphasizing their similarities" this is the kind of speech the villain gives when he's trying to recruit the hero. (something which, hilariously, he mocked the idea of in UTH) But you know, all interpretations of canon are valid, although...

Funny enough, this also is very much not what Joker Did, actually. I mean, I don't recall Joker letting Jason have ANY agency at all, really. Just started breaking bones.

Now, I didn't post all of them because if I kept going it'd just be the whole comic, but yeah he does very much air out his daddy issues and compare them to her relationship with Ollie. It's clear that while he does know a lot about Mia... he also doesn't know much about Ollie. At least, not personality wise. Not how much genuinely better he is at this whole parenting gig.

This is so, so much easier to forgive, conceptually, than everything that goes on in the Batfam both from and to Jason and from and to OTHER MEMBERS OF THE BATFAM without involving Jason at all!!! (Birthdays, amirite?)

And, honestly, I'm probably seeing a lot of the posts that you are, and the ones making the Jason & Ollie bonding posts? Aren't really the same ones going on about the Batarang Incident. We've moved on to the rest of the, gestures above, Patterns of Abuse. If we discuss anything past post-crisis at all. (Speaking of post crisis, I actually remember Jason doing a pretty big solid for one of Oliver's close friends... hmmmmmm. Oh, yeah, he helped out when Black Lightning was framed for murder by Slade so good that even HE thought he did it! Granted, that was pre-Mia. So he's not going to stop being wary, but it's not like Jason hasn't done good things that affected people close to Ollie either.)

And if Jason's emotions aren't an excuse, than, well, Bruce's aren't really an excuse either, are they?

Jason's not even the only one who gets abusive treatment from Bruce. And regardless of your personal interpretations of whether or not it's a valid Batman characterization, after multiple writers have written this kind of thing across multiple continuities, there comes a point when you have to accept that this is a genuine flaw that Bruce carries and find a way to reconcile it with everything else.

And if we're going off of canon-gospel, Jason's own behavior has steadily trended towards more and more fangless, more palatable, in a way that given exposure Oliver would probably tolerate, considering all the others that he tends to tolerate. He still seems to regard the Batclan in general as a dumpster fire, "None of my kids would take a shot at me" he says, completely correct, while Batman's kids wouldn't even hesitate. He rolled up with unsolicited advice about Batman's relationships multiple times, all correct, and gotten shot down or ignored as if his significantly fewer incidents of being a shitty parent that he's very self-aware about somehow make him unqualified to speak at all!

Sometimes the reason that people are writing this, is because they like Ollie more than Bruce, because he knows how to actually apologize and actually do better. And trying to ignore canon in favor of making "good dad" Bruce stories, can wear you down when you just keep seeing Bruce depicted worse and worse and worse, and so maybe you want to start seeing the people trapped in Bruce's vortex move away from that.

And among those in that vortex, Jason has it the worst. Like, this isn't a competition. Some of the shitty stuff that Bruce does to him could be argued to be just responses to what he does himself (victim-blamey, but you know what let's pretend it makes things okay) like uth, or RHATOv2#25 But... Batman & Robin? "Oh Bruce was upset about Damian."

What was it you said? Oh, that's right: "Your feelings being valid don't excuse the harm you do, guys."

Gotham War? I'm sure you'll make excuses for Bruce there. I mean, maybe implementing it was Zur, but, frankly, that "Failsafe"? That has "Bruce genuinely thought this" written all over it. Hypocrite. Considering what his response was to the last time someone messed with his mind.

Oliver... kind of is the canon version of fanon's "good dad Bruce" tbh. And sometimes people make that connection, see those parallels, and want to play with that. It's just a what if.

You know that thing about tragedies about how if anything happened any differently it could have been prevented, that someone could have been saved? Ollie fucks up, but, fundamentally, if Ollie had been in Bruce's position, he would have saved Jason, not by doing the impossible of making it there in time, but by putting Jason first and having healthy communication lmao. Because Bruce very explicitly didn't! He didn't want to talk about it because he was scared of the truth! Or, he was scared of what he believed to be the truth, which would be that Jason had killed. And that it wasn't Bruce's fault. Because it's never Bruce's fault if he failed to raise Jason in that way that took that instinct out. It's not his responsibility to have realized, as the adult in the situation, that Jason maybe shouldn't have been exposed to so much rape and murder at an impressionable age. It's not his responsibility to keep better track of his barely teenaged son who's going through severe trauma right in front of him because they failed to enact justice on someone.

And Bruce had a lot to say about what he thought about Jason that varied and, honestly, rang more as projecting his own issues onto Jason than matching up what was actually happening on the page. Better meta-writers than I have discussed how rarely we get Jason's POV in these situations, that we're TOLD a lot about Jason by everyone else who has an agenda to frame Jason in a certain way.

If you hate Jason Todd, or hate jayroy, then block the damn tags & add it to a content filter bcs generally the latter is always marked. if it's someone on your dash reblogging them and it's not tagged/hiding it then ask them to tag it so you can filter it or stop following them idc. Don't pretend your cherry picking of canon and willful out-of-context misinterpretations is any better than anyone else's.

I have seen many posts and fanfics who are going "Oliver works with Jason to annoy Bruce!", "Oliver protecting Jason from Bruce!", "Oliver deciding to annoy Bruce by being like a father figure to Jason!", "Oliver being so happy for Roy and Jason being together!", and etc, but in canon, Oliver HATES his guts.

Here is a compilation of Oliver thinking or talking about Jason from Seeing Red, which is the first Red Hood's story after Under The Red Hood, and the one time Oliver and Jason interracted in canon (if I'm not mistaken, they never did since):

For the last one, he is talking to Bruce and Jason is one of the "every damned manner of sociopathic fruit fly".

And like, Oliver and the Arrowfam are 100% justified in their dislike or hate. He literally pulled the same shit Joker did on them: took a teenager away from her father figure, beat her up, torture her mentally about her place in her new family and her usefulness, make her and her guardian think he was going to kill her, explode the building she was in in front of her father figure to make him believe he was too late... And all of that to get to Batman. He doesn't give a shit about Oliver or Mia, it's about Batman, it's about Bruce. Just like when the Joker killed him, it wasn't about him, it was about Batman.

And it doesn't matter that Jason changed, because others aren't obligated to forgive someone because they redeemed themselves. I do not believe that Oliver is fine with Jason, he is probably not very happy he hangs around Roy, and does NOT want him near Mia ever again, and certainly not his granddaughter, Liam. That's the man that kidnapped his daughter because he was mad at his own father, nope. He knows how it is to be annoyed with the Bat, and it doesn't justify this.

I can hear y'all seeing disregarding canon is fine, and yes, sure. But also, folks, you are such hypocrites if you want to keep in that Bruce threw a batarang at Jason's neck, and erase how it was an accident ("Batman doesn't make mistakes!" Firstly, he does, canonically, make huge mistakes sometimes. Secondly, the man was an emotional wreck, his son had come back to life and had been killing people and his other son, Dick, was maybe dead because his city just exploded. He is human, not a machine! Thirdly, it is simply fucking stupid for a character who is against killing to willingly inflict such a mortal wound.), but Jason being a huge asshole to others is either erased or excusable (your feelings being valid don't excuse the harm you do, guys). Talk about favoritism.

[gonerface]

To the people using 'antisocial' (ASPD) instead of asocial

You realize that you mean asocial right? Probably not since you didn't use it but hey

There is a difference

Googling asocial:

Asociality refers to the lack of motivation to engage in social interaction, or a preference for solitary activities. Asociality may be associated with avolition, but it can, moreover, be a manifestation of limited opportunities for social relations.

What you find googling the meaning of antisocial:

1. : averse to the society of others : unsociable.

2. : hostile or harmful to organized society.

3. psychology : of, relating to, or characteristic of antisocial personality disorder

What does it mean to be an antisocial person:

A person with antisocial personality disorder may: exploit, manipulate or violate the rights of others. lack concern (also about themselves), regret or remorse about other people's distress. behave irresponsibly and show disregard for normal social behaviour. have difficulty sustaining long-term relationships. Also not caring if things end.

Not being sensitive to or respectful of others acts, emotions, behaviors, thoughts. May use charm or wit to manipulate others for personal gain or pleasure. Having a sense of superiority and being extremely opinionated. Having problems with authority, the law, can include criminal behavior. Being hostile, aggressive, violent or threatening to others when they protect themselves.

And also being reckless about your own safety, health (physical, mental, emotional), not caring about their own education or job.

Difficulty with planning ahead. Impulsive thoughts.

Issues with splitting (just like BPD, HPD and NPD)

Homicidal ideation (can be intrusive, yes even for someone with ASPD)

So... After reading all of that... Which one do you wanna be associated with now?

Stop using words as if they mean nothing.

Especially when people suffer from the thing you throw around like it's nothing.

You're not cool for using 'antisocial' when you don't have ASPD. You're just another annoying edge lord being ignorant and ableist.

[the-blue-fairie]

Hot take but Elsa the Disney character isn't a sociopath.

I made a post recently venting about (what I felt to be) a deeply odd comment someone made to me in the past, and that got making me thinking about an accumulation of posts over the years that have made me uncomfortable:

This post calls Elsa “a bit of a sociopath.” Its use of the term “sociopath” is both frivolous and ableist.

A while ago, @greatqueenanna and I were discussing this mentality (because it had emerged in more people than the individual I am currently citing) regarding Elsa and she reached out to a friend who, for the sake of his privacy, I shall call BG. He’s diagnosed ASPD (Sociopathy) and works as Clinical Psychologist, specifically with patients who have severe divergences (ASPD, Narcissistic Personality, Histrionic, Bipolar, Schizophrenia, etc.)

I will now share portions of his email response:

"I want to point something out that is very important to the idea of Elsa being a sociopath. Elsa’s entire persona revolves around her guilt. Elsa feels responsible for the accident that happened to Anna. She is burdened with guilt for her parents’ efforts to accommodate her powers, and then their deaths. The eternal winter and the spirit invasion left her with a heavy load of guilt. Elsa feels guilty that she wants to follow the voice and discover more about her powers.

Guilt, guilt, guilt. If you’re tired of the word guilt by this point, then I’ve made my point. Elsa is not a sociopath, foremost, because she feels guilt. This is important because empathy is the key between sociopaths and empaths, and that’s why I wanted to focus on this first. Sociopaths don’t feel guilt.

Next, Elsa’s key problem is her lack of self-worth; the complete disassociation from her own needs and desires. This is not an issue with sociopaths. With this in mind, Elsa shows a bit of recklessness in Frozen 2, but it’s not from a place of boredom or a need for power. It is from a place of trying to defend those she cares about. There was a fire, she tried to stop it from hurting others. She needed to find answers about the forest to save everyone, so she jumped into the hole. Elsa gets no real benefit from these actions; meaning it doesn’t qualify as the same recklessness a sociopath would do. Her lack of self-worth makes her able to just throw herself in danger and push others away from it. Her recklessness comes from a place of martyrdom.

So, we’ve ruled out three key features of ASPD – no empathy or guilt, a grandiose sense of self, and recklessness out of boredom or desire for power. Now let’s talk manipulation; especially since it seems like no one understands what that means. From good ole’ WedMD, we see that Manipulation in the clinical sense is the - ‘exercise of harmful influence over others. People who manipulate others attack their mental and emotional sides to get what they want. The person doing the manipulating, called the manipulator, seeks to create an imbalance of power.’

Does Elsa ever try to make someone feel inferior, try to induce self-hatred, reinforce self-damaging behaviors, or get them to mistrust others? No, Elsa does none of this. She does it to herself."

Outside of F2, the claim that "Elsa doesn't care about anyone other than Elsa" is nonsense. In F1, Elsa isolates herself because she wants to protect others. She wants to protect her family, the sister whom she loves. She wants to protect the people around her. Many of Elsa’s worst traits actually emerge from caring for others at the expense of caring for herself - and those traits are only present because of her trauma and because of the way she was raised. In Frozen Fever, Elsa devotes herself to Anna because she loves her and wants to give her a perfect birthday, even though Elsa herself is sick. She puts Anna first. In OFA, she reaches out to apologize to Anna after closing the door again, she is shown to be a loving sister, a loving queen, protective of Olaf, etc.

The statement that “nobody [was] ever thinking of her (except for Kristoff in the last 3 years of her life)” is misguided because it disregards not only Elsa but Olaf. I’m all for loving Anna’s and Kristoff’s connection (I’m a Kristanna shipper myself, after all) but to say she had no one else is untrue.

This person also made statements like this:

And this:

Even hotter take from me, but Elsa the Disney character is not reflective of real-life cases of domestic abuse and incestuous violence. I realize you dislike her, but she's just not. She is a character in an animated film for children.

This mentality wasn't just her either. There was another blog that described itself thusly...

...which openly admitted that:

If your Anna fanblog never was much of an Anna fanblog but instead an Elsa hateblog, that says something about you and how negatively you approach the media you consume.

You cared more about hating Elsa than loving Anna - so much so that you put your original intent of loving Anna to the wayside. There’s something sad about that.

If you had a whole blog dedicated to screaming that you wished a fictional cartoon character had died, that isn’t healthy.

And it wasn't just those two blogs:

I saw various posts like these over the years, but held my tongue because I didn't want to be branded an "Elsa stan" or get yelled at. I did get yelled at by verannaca in 2023, however, because she rudely came onto one of my posts about Elsa to say that "Elsa was the villain." I replied with the definition of villain from the Oxford English Dictionary and told her to chill, then she got angry at me for writing an "unnecessary essay" when like... SHE came onto MY post. If she hated Elsa so much, why did she seek out MY Elsa-centric post?

It was just... an ugly miasma of negativity and I hope that, when Frozen 3 and 4 come out, blatant misreadings of the text don't become popular again. I understand Anna fans' frustrations with Elsa's popularity and I myself have expressed issues with the writing of especially Frozen 2, but...

I really don't think I'm an "Elsa stan" for saying statements like "Elsa isn't a sociopath" and "Elsa isn't reflective of incestuous violence."

Still, I love Elsa just as much as I love Anna, just as much as I love Kristoff, just as much as I love Kristanna and Frohana and the Northuldra and everything else. We're united by love, first and foremost.

[listenheresweaty]

more on the Shubble situation

Tw: ableism, terrible writing I didn’t have time to proofread sorry :((

I want to be clear: I will never ever ever EVER support Cc!Wilbur. What he did was abuse, plain and simple. If any of this stuff on Shubble is true, my stance on him won’t change. Abuse is abuse.

So, apparently some people are saying that Shubble has made ableist remarks or something? Does anyone have any sources?

I have noticed a very ableist approach to the Shubble situation in general. People saying stuff like “of course Wilbur would always pick the psychotic characters to roleplay 😝” or “he’s so narcissistic omgg” are EVERYWHERE on twitter/youtube and surprisingly common on tumblr. I don’t think I have to explain how relating people with psychosis or NPD with abuse is ableist. However, as far as I know, this behavior has been from FANS, not from Shubble. It would be cool if she addressed this (since they’ve already told people to stop sending death threats/harassing others), but I understand if she’d want to take her time after… everything.

If SHE has been throwing around terms such as “psychotic” or “narcissistic” in a derogatory manner.. please let me know. I’m currently looking for sources.

****I know that some people were offput by how she criticized Wilbur for “living in filth” and having an “ant infestation” in her original VOD. And yes, shaming someone who likely struggles with mental illness for subpar living conditions is ableist, regardless of who they are—- HOWEVER,,,,,,,, I do not think Shubble was pointing this out to criticize the living conditions, but rather to give her audiences hints as to who her abuser was. Remember, Wilbur was known to have had ant infestations in the past. So I do not consider this sufficient evidence of ableism.

I want to be clear: I will never ever ever EVER support Cc!Wilbur. What he did was abuse, plain and simple. If any of this stuff on Shubble is true, my stance on him won’t change. Abuse is abuse.

[cherrypicked-sys]

hey btw!!! calling people you don't agree with "attention seekers" is in fact ableist. I have HPD. seeing people throw around the term "attention seeker" and applying it to anyone they don't understand is actively harmful.

even if people ARE doing it for attention, STOP calling people attention seekers. it's fucking ableist and dismissive.

[buddiebeginz]

Uhm you all are the ones who came up with b*mmy that's where I even saw the ship name floating around when your fandom was trying to figure out what to call your ship. Which you still haven't agreed on a consensus on btw since some parts call it one thing some another.

Also am I missing something here? How is the name b*mmy close to being a slur? It'd really be nice if your fandom would stop resorting to things like calling people homophobic because we don't like your ship or a scene your ship was in. Calling us ableist because some of you see T*mmy as neurodivergent (yes I've seen posts like this) and now apparently I'm using some kind of slur for using one your own ship names.

You realize homophobia is a huge deal and problem therefore calling someone out for being homophobic should be taken seriously. The more you throw out these kinds of terms just because you disagree with someone or don't like something they said the more you trivialize the importance of them. As a queer person myself I'm begging you all to stop talking like this.

[that-1-url]

hey something i think people (especially NT but a lot of ND people too) need to understand is that when people are like "hey please don't use [nonverbal/hyperfixiation/meltdown/shutdown/etc.] like that, it's actually meant to describe [x]" it isn't "gatekeeping" it isn't "excluding" it isn't anything like that, it's correcting ableist behavior. "well i know a professional and THEY said-" shush. professionals are not always going to be aware of the language and culture of the disabled and neurodivergent communities. they barely move past the dsm-IV, they don't always listen to their patients/clients/whoever. I've had to correct multiple ableist comments and outdated language in my education class, and they're pretty up to date in comparison to a lot of the stories i've heard and professionals i've talked to myself.

historically, words have been used to oppress just about every marginalized group you can think of. words have much more power than you think. by saying shit like "yeah i went non-verbal because i couldn't think of how to continue the conversation" or "i've been hyperfixiated on this new coffee, i've bought it twice." or "i misread, im so dyslexic haha" invalidates people's real lived experiences. i've hyperfixiated for hours, and when i came out of it my back hurt, my legs hurt, i was dizzy and really had to use the bathroom. it was painful and disorienting. i've hyperfixiated on a tv show so much before that i couldn't focus in class, fell behind on my homework and tanked my grades. it isn't just "oh i like this new thing its my hyperfixiation haha". i am not nonverbal so i cannot speak for the struggles nonverbal people personally feel but i have read many posts about their exasperation with people throwing the term around like it isn't their everyday reality.

tldr: if someone tells you you are appropriating a term and asks you to stop, please listen.

please feel free to add

[plenuline-pearls]

my biggest syscourse hot take is that people take this all way too seriously. why can't we just respectfully debate? why are we all at each others' throats over something that is only ever relevant online?

i reckon we all stop to smell the flowers, and chill out before trying to maul each other over something of so little importance.

i'm not saying we should all agree, because that just won't happen.

i am saying, however, that we should be able to talk about this maturely. i won't change my mind, and lots of others won't change theirs, but insulting each other and throwing around terms like "hate group" or "ableist" is only driving the two sides further apart.

[rjalker]

Yet another fandom themed bingo card. This time for some of the inane and useless responses you get when you criticize something in the media.

[ID: a light orange bingo card labeled in cursive, "Media analysis bingo". The boxes read, in order from left to right and top to bottom along each row: "All interpretations are valid uwu" "Vibes are just as valid as actual analysis and evidence :)" "Yes, I will straight up lie about what happens in the books. This proves I'm right." "You have no reading comprehension if you think these books have any bigotry in them" "If you think these books have problems, you need to touch grass. Because I hate media analysis and disabled people!" "Summarizes the problem, acts like this somehow disproves it" "refuses to provide any evidence to back up their argument *provides evidence…that literally proves them wrong. (and then doesn't even notice)". "Well, the story has an unreliable narrator, so anything you're criticizing is actually not a problem!!!" *repeats the definition of an unreliable narrator as though that has anything to do with the topic at hand* "The narrator is unreliable so this resolves all problems!!!" and then the narrator isn't actually unreliable because the entire rest of the narrative agrees with them on everything. blatant sealioning Free space "But the author said on Twitter—" "Can you give me some examples of this problem?" sees the evidence immeidately starts throwing around ableist insults because they have no way out now except personal attacks "I see the 3k word essay you wrote complete with direct quotes and paragraphs from each book and I raise you: I'm not reading all that lol. You're still wrong though. That didn't happen." thinks in-universe explanations justify real world bigotry "Well, I headcanon that the problem doesn't exist, so if you think it's a problem in canon, you just need to touch grass! It's all fake anyways!!!" "OMG, why are you even interacting with this media if you hate it so much???" "For the sake of my mental health, I need you to stop criticizing the bigotry in this media I worship." "Instead of googling the media analysis term you used, or asking what it means, I'll just completely derail the post!" "Books are actually cosmic horrors beyond our comprehension. No one can Ever say what theme a book Really has, it's all unknowable mysterious mysteries of mystery. BTW what does the word 'theme' mean?" blatant anti-intellectualism "I'm going to ignore everything you actually said and argue about this completley separate thing instead" "Critical thinking is bad for your mental health and you shouldn't do it!!!" End ID.]

[sonicattos]

Ok I apologize for how long this is but I read your post about npd and I have some thoughts I want to share. First, yeah that screenshot is gross and ableist. With ya on that. Making fun of someone for having a disorder is wrong, full stop. Also, I agree that it's wrong to call someone narcissistic just because they're abusive. Not all abusers are narcissists and vice versa.

HOWEVER. Many of the symptoms of clinical narcissism relate to how people interact with others. And the reason they are regarded as "symptoms" is because truly narcissistic folks relate to others in an abusive way. If people with narcissism did not typically display abusive and/or manipulative behavior they would have nothing to be diagnosed with.

I'm a victim of abuse by a narcissistic person. (Notice I don't say they have NPD. I'm not "armchair diagnosing for sympathy" here.) That person was not simply abusive for no reason. They were abusive BECAUSE they had narcissistic traits such as having little regard for others. I genuinely fail to see how saying this would be hateful or ableist. I can tell that you feel very passionate about this, but as someone who has been on the receiving end of abuse by a narcissistic person, I feel that your post is implying that this kind of abuse doesn't exist, or worse, that people who say they have suffered it are making it up. I know there are a LOT of people who throw around the term narcissist and don't know what they're talking about. But there are also people who truly have been abused by narcissists. And they're not lying for attention.

Don't feel pressured to respond and I apologize for the wall of text. I just have strong feelings about the subject and wanted to share.

1) please don’t take words from my mouth. i never. EVER. said that the abused are making up being abused. i come from a very abusive household that i STILL live in. my mom and my sister used to fucking beat me. i was starved. i was denied any medical help for illness. im isolated. i was groomed into believing that i was more mature than i was and wasn’t treated with the care a child could have. i was and still am constantly told how useless i am and how my mental/physical issues are my fault. my parents never cared and only did things that benefit themselves. i would never deny that someone could hurt someone and i never had. jesus fucking christ.

2) i study psychology. i know i can’t just prove that by saying it but you have to take my word for it i genuinely look deep into this stuff, as it’s a special interest of mine. you come from a place of ignorance of the situation as a whole. never call someone with “narcissistic traits” (aka abusive traits) a narcissist. it’s a medical term. again. call it what it is: abuse. there are other ways to describe that abuse than labeling it as such. narcissism is supposed to be a neutral term to describe traits of npd, not how someone is acting.

3) no. you don’t have to be abusive to be diagnosed with npd. there are many symptoms and tendencies that come with the disorder and it’s also a spectrum just like any other disorder.

npd describes a disorder of someone who has an inflated self-importance. besides putting others down to lift themselves up, they can also try to lift themselves up in a way that’s unrealistic or may seem “prideful”, try getting other’s attention by doing something good or dramatic. narcissism comes from a place of abuse from their elders, either emotional neglect or lack of teaching of responsibility. it affects those who lack empathy or even other mental illness’, which again, doesn’t mean you are an abuser or a bad person.

how would they get diagnosed? perhaps they’re hurting themselves. maybe they have constant breakdowns for not getting attention. etc. a dramatic event of abuse doesn’t have to happen for a psychologist to figure out someone has npd.

4) the entire point of the post is to tell fucking people to stop using a word that they learned on the internet and didn’t look up what it meant maybe besides the fucking saneist articles vilifying narcissistic people instead of educating one what the disorder actually is.

people with npd deserve sympathy as much as any other person. they deserve help and awareness as well. narcissism isn’t a word to pass around like table salt. it’s a real thing that people suffer with. they’re hurt. they believe if they don’t do something that they’re not worth anything. yes a lot of them become abusers because people who are abusive have most likely been abused. but not every person who’s been abused is abusive.

[strawberry-graveyard]

being mentally ill is not a prerequisite to being bad or abusive. yes there will always be mentally ill people who are bad, but not every abuser has a mental illness and not everyone with a mental illness will be an abuser.

hurting someone is a choice, and it has nothing to do with how your brain is wired, how high or low your empathy is, none of it. especially on the empathy front. plenty of people who have high empathy are complete assholes. plenty of people who feel a lot of guilt after hurting someone will wake up the next day and choose to do it again. meanwhile pretty much everyone i’ve met with low/no empathy has been the kindest person alive, because lacking empathy doesn’t mean you don’t know right from wrong.

you are taught what hurts people nearly every day of your life. some you learn when you’re little and some you learn as an adult. but you are taught right from wrong, and what makes you a bad person has nothing to do with things you can’t control. it entirely has to do with waking up in the morning and choosing whether you’re going to do things that hurt people or not.

and more often than not the people choosing to hurt others are entirely neurotypical. so stop trying to explain away other people’s horrible decisions with mental illnesses you know nothing about. you are not a therapist, and your therapist knows nothing about people they do not counsel. you and the people in your life have no say in whether your abusive ex is a narcissist. no say in whether your racist qanon uncle is delusional. no say in whether your transphobic aunt is paranoid.

because when you claim these things with no knowledge of what you’re talking about you deflect from the real issues at hand. you continue to push away the term emotional abuse when you call your abuser a narcissist. you continue to push away systemic bigotry. you continue to push away weaponized loneliness. weaponized incompetence. the lack of critical thinking skills, or the decline of media literacy.

none of these have any link to mental illness, you just want an excuse to hurt others. in fact you’re the perfect example of the choice to be bad, because you choose to be ableist every time you throw mental illness around as an insult, as something inherently tied to being horrible. so i implore you to choose to be a little bit better today. at least choose to try.

[lethalblow]

you literally don't know if i'm black or not, but whether i am or not it doesn't change the fact that you throwing a word around

like. okay. let me be specific. you don't care about intellectually disabled black people either, because you wouldn't be throwing around a word that was used as a medical diagnosis to dehumanize people with brain damage + other brain issues. especially people of colour, and ESPECIALLY black people with these issues.

calling racists a slur does nothing. being there for your black and brown friends and fucking listening to poc when they tell you things is literally step one of being an ally and you failed because vitriol is more fun than stopping and thinking.

i hope andréa sees reason and leaves you, actually. you're putting yourself at the forefront and acting like some authority on racism when you're nothing more than a white poser who wants mentally abled poc to look at you and say “oh my god my hero!!!!” while the mentally disabled poc are left wondering why you think we're nothing more than an insult interchangeable with subhuman.

your wife's physical disability has no stake in this, either. stop weaponizing someone else's disability that is not relevant. the r slur is a term specifically for those with brain damage and other intellectual disabilities.

Allyship is violent. Allyship is uncomfortable and aggressive. You are not exempt from misogynoir even if you ARE black, but you didnt even introduce yourself as black, and like i said BEFORE i would rather listen to a random black stranger i just met than a fucking tumblr anon!!!?

I know damn well youre not having motherfucking slur discourse with me right now also!!!! Andréa is fucking autistic but people see her physical disability FIRST! Nobody gives a fuck! if they're ableist they'll call her a retard on the street. TELLING A FUCKING DISABLED BLACK WOMAN TO SEE REASON IS INSANE. HONESTLY KILL YOURSELF. Why the FUCK would i ever try to have some civil conversation with you it took you 2 seconds to be misogynoiristic and here you are, AGAIN!!!! FUCKING DOUBLING DOWN. Get the fuck out of my inbox

[your-friendly-neighbourh00d-fag]

i don’t want to be rude but please stop making robin’s coming out about anybody but her. it’s borderline lesbophobic.

anon… i have truly no idea how to tell you this but.

i am a lesbian

trust me, i have done my freaking out over robin’s arc and am excited to see rockie in s5. i love robin. but i think i need to take some terms like lesbophobic away from tumblr and put them on a very high shelf because all i did was predict a parallel in a television show.

it isn’t a bad thing that since we’ve not been getting content for a while people go on deeper dives into earlier seasons and look for more cinematography tricks and interesting things the duffers have done.

i didn’t try to make robin coming out ALL ABOUT BYLER i simply made a connection to another queer character’s arc. sorry if that bothers you, but (coming from someone who has to deal with it DAILY) that isn’t lesbophobic. and it kind of lessens actual struggles we have to go through when you throw around terms like that carelessly.

edit: im tagging shit because this fandom especially needs to remember this. terms like ableist, racist and biphobic have serious weight and you can't just chuck them around for no good reason.