#something something cassandra of troy

[rythyme]

"please tell me the omegaverse show is another joke like the thai goncharov remake" my brother in christ the "goncharov remake" was real too

[ironspdr6700]

WHY IS CLYTEMNESTRA JUST AND GUILTY AT THE SAME TIME (ACCORDING TO AESCHYLUS)?

Medical school, unfortunately, has been taking up more of my reading time than I'd like. But since we're on 14-HOURS blackouts now, it gives me time to at least read my favorite Greek tragedies in more detail. And of the big 3… My favorite by far is Aeschylus.

I recently read some passages from Gilbert Murray's book "Aeschylus: Creator of Greek Tragedy" and I can't recommend it enough for anyone who is a fan of the Oresteia, because you read Murray first and then you re-read Aeschylus in a totally different way and all the parts that seemed incomprehensible at first make sense. I've read a lot of posts here on Tumblr that defend or demonize Agamemnon or Clytemnestra or Electra, defending one, condemning the other or claiming that they are all equally bad, but I think the problem is that we read the saga of the house of Atreus from our modern perspective. And I think that shows that we don't know how to read Greek tragedies. Tragedy… AUTHENTIC GREEK TRAGEDY AS AN ARTISTIC CREATION, according to Aristotle, should provoke TERROR and COMPASSION in the viewer at the same time. Tragic heroes are different from the rest of traditional heroes because they are not worthy of being imitated, but are trapped in a situation that none of us would want to be in. And we regret that because if we were in their place we wouldn't know how to make a better decision.

Precisely because we are a modern audience, we feel more comfortable with Euripides' theatre, his criticism of mythology and the lack of ethics of the gods (don't get me wrong, I love his Medea and the Trojan Women, which is, in my opinion, one of the greatest treasures of universal literature), but we find it difficult to get into the thought of Aeschylus.

Because Aeschylus belongs to the last link of Archaic Greece, which was transformed into the Classical and rationalist Greece of Euripides, Socrates and Thucydices. Aeschylus was a deeply religious man who lived through decades of transformation: the passage from tyranny in Athens to aristocracy and then to democracy, the battles of Marathon and Salamis between the small Greek city-states against the "excessive" Persian empire and the beginning of the golden age of Athens marked his vision of the world that Divine Justice had an active participation in the world to always balance the scales.

And this also involves a transformation in the conception of Law and Justice in that period of Greek thought. Like the archaic idea that justice is only a synonym for revenge, it becomes a state-mediated process to maintain social peace. According to the archaic conception EVERY MURDER OF ANY MEMBER OF THE FAMILY MUST BE AVENGEANCE, it is not an option, it is an OBLIGATION. From that point of view, Clytemnestra has every right in the world to take revenge on Agamemnon for the sacrifice of Iphigenia, not even the Furies have anything against her because she is not Agamemnon's blood relative, which, superficially, would seem to close the cycle. The only problem is that this is a cycle of violence, and the more violence you add, the more times the cycle keeps repeating itself and the more the wheel of Ananke, the Need to satisfy the spilled violence, keeps turning.

Clytemnestra calls for help from Zeus, "Zeus, through whom all things come to an end", so that she can succeed in her plan. If Clytemnestra kills Agamemnon, it is because ZEUS HAS ALLOWED HER TO DO SO. In Aeschylus, no event ever happens that was not the will of Zeus. Zeus is the guarantor of destiny, the protector of supplicants, the guardian of hospitality… And he is also Zeus the Avenger, in charge of making sure that everyone pays for their crimes in due time. And Agamemnon has a long list of crimes to carry out, not just Iphigenia; as leader of the expedition against Troy, he has allowed the army to destroy everything during the siege, including the altars of the gods… the refuge for the supplicants.

"The altars and temples of their gods have disappeared; the entire race of a people has been annihilated."

Zeus, as guardian of hospitality, sent Agamemnon and Menelaus against Troy for the abduction of Helen:

"Paris, who, having been welcomed into the home of the Atreids, dishonoured the table of hospitality by the abduction of a wife."

But Agamemnon allows his army to GO TO OVER THE TOP IN REVENGE

"Paris will never boast, nor the city that was his accomplice, that the deed outweighed the punishment… he lost the stolen garment, and ruined the house of his parents along with his own country. WITH DOUBLE PUNISHMENT the sons of Priam PAID FOR THEIR GUILT."

So now it is Zeus, Suppliant and Avenger, who must again balance the scales.

"Now those who conquered my country are in turn sentenced by the gods."

As a second point in favor, Clytemnestra, at least in the first work of the trilogy, is more than just a woman, she seems more like she is possessed by a divinity:

"…say not that I am the wife of Agamemnon. That ancient and fierce spirit of vengeance that garnished the cruel feast of Atreus, that is he who, taking the appearance of the wife of him who lies there, avenged on a man the sacrifice of two children."

This was part of archaic thought, the idea of ​​demons or minor divinities that influence the thought or behavior or actions of human beings and also that the crimes of parents must be paid for by their children if they are not avenged. One of the most interesting posts I read is one that commented that, in archaic literature, one never knows exactly where human freedom begins and where divine will ends. BUT THIS DOES NOT MEAN THAT FREE WILL DOES NOT EXIST AND THEREFORE THAT HUMAN BEINGS ARE EXEMPT FROM RESPONSIBILITY FOR THEIR ACTIONS.

And this is where Clytemnestra also becomes guilty. First, because she murders Cassandra, a Trojan princess, a priestess, a slave who has no say.

"I am forced to suffer the yoke of slavery"

She treats her as if she were Agamemnon's lover, which highlights 1) Clytemnestra's hypocrisy, because she had also taken Aegisthus as a lover, and 2) this is more important, THE LACK OF COMPASSION. Greek tragedy must generate terror and compassion because they are the two emotions that make us human. Only the person who is authentically compassionate, that is, literally feels the suffering of others as their own, as a shared experience and inheritance, can be called an authentic human being in the highest spiritual sense of the word. Clytemnestra HAS NO PITY, on the contrary, she delights in the very violence she commits:

"She, after singing her funeral dirges like a swan, fell too, and lies there beside her lover. Delicious contentment that satisfies the pleasures of my loves!"

Clytemnestra triumphs as Iphigenia's mother, but fails as a queen, just as Agamemnon triumphs as a king but fails as Iphigenia's father. Clytemnestra does not care about the opinion of the chorus of elders, she does not care that Aegisthus establishes a tyranny and that the respect for majesty that Agamemnon did have for his subjects is transformed into fear, into threats of hunger and deprivation for those who oppose her.

It is true that Clytemnestra is justified (Justice in the most archaic sense of the word) in her revenge in the first act, but that does not give her the right to laugh, or even to feel proud of what she has just done. "For my own part, I boast of my work. If it were lawful to pour libations on a corpse, they would be just, most just on this occasion." Not even Odysseus, who murdered 108 people in his own house despite having received the approval of Zeus and Athena, takes delight in the slaughter, because "it is not godly to rejoice over the death of these men."

In the end, Clytemnestra does not seem to die for killing Agamemnon (that is Aegisthus). She dies for having killed Cassandra, as she herself prophesies:

"… when a woman pays for my life with her life, and a man atones with his blood for the blood of the unhappy husband of a bad wife… I ask you that my hateful murderers receive from my avengers the payment for the easy death of a defenseless slave."

And that is what leads Orestes to be one step closer to absolution than Clytemnestra will ever be. Orestes obeys Apollo's orders, but against his will, forced by fate, he finds neither pleasure nor satisfaction in matricide. It is the first step that will later lead him to be absolved by Athena. While Clytemnestra, even in death, has no compassion, she cannot forgive even her own son when he sees himself subjected to an unwanted fate.

[streets-in-paradise]

Wait … I'm going to full ramble about this topic because now that someone made me think about it i believe it fucking deserves more attention.

Troy (2004) was written by the same guy who later worked in Game of Thrones. GOT, the piece of media that skyrocketed popularity of the " we brutalize women for the sake of gritty realism and give every fem character a 'rape made you stronger' arc " trend.

However, in Troy every woman whose canonical fate in the source material was being raped was saved from this. Even if the scene where Achilles saves Briseis it's a bit unconfortable to watch, those men don't get to rape her. Hector uses the power of self awareness to warn Andromache and get her ready to fight the fate she had on the original story. During the sacking of Troy, Briseis kills Agamemnon on a scene that clearly reverse mirrors what happened with Cassandra and the lesser Ajax.

This movie had few female characters, but the few it kept they respected. Despite being older than GOT, it treated its lead ladies with kindness.

I freaking love Troy and you all can suck my left one.

[so-very-small]

just had a dream and in it a distant cousin discovered the secret of shrinking but he had to do it isolated in the woods. i had to be far away from him but i saw it happen! he was tiny! but before i could go pick him up as planned, a bunch of other drama (nightmare goth church; exploding sheep; impromptu babysitting; centuries old dogs; etc) happened. like an hour later i was walking by the woods and saw a coyote fuckin bolting in the direction of my tiny cousin who was sprinting through the grass and screaming. i had entirely forgotten about him. i went “oh fuck” and the shame of being such an awful giant prompted me to keep walking like i didnt see shit. hope he escaped that coyote tho. sorry and godspeed soldier

[daughterofzeus-the-novel]

I know some of classicsblr dislikes the way Madeline Miller modernized the Illiad for Song of Achilles but I loved Circe and I'm really liking this one so far

[secretceremonials]

As much as it would ruin what matters about her as a tragic character, a small part of me wants a Troy au where cassandra escapes Mycenae and lives happily (as much as she possibly could, ofc she’s traumatised) with Helenus and Andromache

[stephaniesays06]

I USED TO TELL THE FUTURE BUT NOW I SEE NOTHING THEY CUT OUT MY EYES ANS SENT ME HOME PACKING TO PACE AROUND THE KITCHEN FOR SCRAPS OF INSPIRATION CRYING LIKE CASSANDRA!!

[a-very-smooth-boltzmann-brain]

Not oedipus. Not Elektra. It's a Parisian complex and I'm getting my whole family killed.

[arte3misss2317]

the thing is.. i have a 50% accuracy rate. so like i have no idea if i'm just being dramatic or suddenly have been given the gift of prophecy.

being paranoid is funny bc like well what if i'm right

[anumberofcatschilling]

Stranded in a building that is not where I was wanting to go (it was about to rain) (did not bring an umbrella), and rather than think about creative ideas for class, brain think of a conversation between a being for whom the past is the present is the future is the past and a human that explained the concept of free will enough times seeing the words on subway walls and tenement halls.

[potatoesandsunshine]

max hates cassandra so much and she fully believes they are friends. this actually makes me pretty sad

[yappacadaver]

first time anyone ever meets raymond

"seriously wtf is this guy talking abt.... when will he stop...."

[filmnoirsbian]

Incomplete list of recommendations if you want greek myth retellings that are actually interesting and do something new with the concept:

Hadestown by Anaïs Mitchell (& friends)

O Brother, Where Art Thou (2000)

Cassandra by Christa Wolf

The King Must Die by Mary Renault

Los Reyes by Julio Cortázar

Lavinia by Ursula K. Le Guin

The Trojan Women: A Comic by Anne Carson and Rosanna Bruno (let's be honest, Ms. Carson could easily dominate this whole list but I'm trying to limit myself to one and I think this one is the most interesting.)

Girl on an Altar by Marina Carr

Oresteia by Robert Icke

An Iliad by Denis O'Hare and Lisa Peterson

Till We Have Faces by C. S. Lewis

Helen in Egypt by Hilda Doolittle (H.D.)

Norma Jean Baker of Troy by Anne Carson (ok I lied, what are you gonna do about it?)

Weight by Jeanette Winterson

The Penelopiad by Margaret Atwood

Averno by Louise Glück

[saturdaynightfrightclub]

DC’s penchant for creating characters with black hair and blue eyes presents a really funny opportunity. Especially when so many of said characters being of similar ages to Bruce’s children.

I think a lot of them have been mistaken as actually being Bruce’s kids by tabloids.

I like to think it started with Donna Troy. Who would hang out around a young Dick Grayson-Wayne. Would hang out with young Dickie Wayne a lot. To the point that the paparazzi took notice, and started to speculate on the nature of their relationship.

Which abruptly ended when an overzealous reporter confronted the pair as they left a movie demanding info on the nature of their relationship and when they had started dating.

To which Donna had laughed and waved them off saying: “Dick is my brother!”

English was not Donna Troy’s first language. She didn’t realize that by omitting the word like (as in: Dick is like my brother) she had caused a media uproar. Because everyone knew that Dick Grayson was Brucie Wayne’s son, his little boy. But the insinuation that he had two children?

They take one look at this tall, gorgeous young woman with black hair and blue eyes. And then look at the young boy beside her, also with black hair and blue eyes. It wouldn’t be too much of a stretch to believe that Bruce had adopted two children who bore passing resemblance to him, if not fathered the pair himself.

It was Outrageous. It was Insane. It was Deliciously juicy gossip.

(Dick could have corrected them. But he actually thought Bruce trying to explain away another kid to be really, really funny.)

The papers go crazy for the idea of Bruce Wayne: Family man and suddenly all anyone wants to interview him about is his two kids! Donna and Dick!

Bruce had expected this, having been aware of Donna’s slip-up. But he didn’t refute it, because it really was a bit funny. Instead he spouts off proudly about his two kids, relaying stories of Donna growing up (which he had originally heard from Diana). It’s harmless, something to feed the papers and expand upon his Brucie Wayne persona.

After all, it’s not like he actually intends to adopt any children besides Dick.

But. . . Then there’s Jason. With his dark curls and big blue eyes who talk at length about how cool his “big sister” is. And never mentions his “big brother” except to pout at the mention of Dick Grayson’s name.

And for a while Bruce is believed to have three children.

Except after Jason, there’s Tim Drake.

Tim, who (having sustained a serious concussion) one day panicked and proclaimed a confused Conner Kent as his brother. Upping Bruce’s supposed children count to five.

Later he offhandedly mentions a Billy and Freddie. The media goes nuts with the notion that Bruce has two more sons hidden away somewhere. Seven children, six boys and one girl.

The papers sympathize with Donna’s apparent status as eldest and only daughter of Bruce Wayne.

This doesn’t last long, as soon afterwards Bruce is introducing his daughter Cassandra to the public. Shes often seen with a blonde young woman who goes by Stephanie, and the pair have tabloids speculating that Bruce has branched away from his obsession with adopting blue eyed, black haired children.

Years after that, there’s yet another young boy. With browned skin and green eyes, he looks exactly like a young Bruce Wayne with different colors. Another child to Bruce’s family. And after that, there’s Duke Thomas joining the fray.

And then one day a reporter stops a pair of boys outside of school one day and asks Damian Wayne about his friend, one Jon Kent. Wanting a story about how the children of the elite differ in terms of making friends from “normal” children. Damian scoffs at the question and asks the reporter if he’s so incompetent he can’t recognize both of Bruce Wayne’s sons.

The media goes nuts for this.

Bruce Wayne; single father to twelve kids.

Lois laughs so hard she cries that Christmas, when she opens a card from the Waynes that prominently features Bruce surrounded by not just his own children, but her brother-in-law, Connor, and her son Jon. Clark complains that Bruce is stealing his kids.

Diana frames the card. It really is a good picture, and Donna looks amazing.

[gingermintpepper]

Why did Apollo favor the trojans in the Illiad?

So, dear Anon, I've been thinking about how to answer this question since I got it a couple days ago and I think I kind of want to make something clear before I get into it.

The Iliad by itself as a poem only covers some of the events that occur in the final year of a long protracted conflict that had been brewing for at least two decades and was an active war for ten. Within the space of the Iliad itself, the motivations and affairs of the major players are often referenced but there are many, many parts of the story that are not there because they belong to a different story cycle that has been since lost or was never recorded with words. In the space of the Iliad Apollo's motivations are questioned a lot - his pride is questioned by Poseidon who thinks Apollo should be just as angry at the Trojans as he considering Apollo was treated equally as poorly by Laomedon while they worked together. His honour is questioned by Hera who chastises him for taking the Trojans' side when he'd proclaimed that Achilles would live a long life and prosper at Thetis and Peleus' wedding. His own sister calls him a coward for refusing to fight when Zeus gives permission for the gods to go wild on the battlefield. For all that there's this image of Apollo in the Iliad as some staunch and unwavering protector of the Trojans, believe it or not, I largely think of Apollo as neutral in the war.

Which, I suppose, comes back to the question - why did Apollo favour the Trojans? The truthful answer is that I don't know. The Iliad and all its connected stories isn't something I've done enough research on to have an answer or a reference to an answer off the top of my head. The reasoning I'm aware of is that Apollo was a Patron God of Troy and really a god doesn't need any reason besides that to protect his people but it's not like Apollo abandoned the Greeks either. Calchas is the biggest example of that I can point to - descended directly from a priest of Apollo and one who attributed his mantic power to the god, Calchas was pivotal in ensuring the Greeks even got to Troy in the first place.

From a personal perspective however, I think Apollo was more dedicated to the house of Priam than he was the city of Troy itself. Apollo's affection for that house and all its members ran deep - from his admiration of Hecuba and Hector to his love and attempted courtship of Cassandra to his blessings given to Helenus, Deiphobos, Cassandra, Troilus and even his partnership with Paris - Apollo loved the house of Priam. When you think about the times Apollo lashes out against the Greeks, it's generally because they've done some nonsense to earn his ire. The plague was caused by Agamemnon disrespecting his priest, his aid in the slaughter of Patroclus was because he didn't respect him, his minor grudge against Diomedes too was because he tried to test Apollo's mettle and well, the less said about Achilles the better. Apart from his obvious favouring of Hector in the skirmishes, Apollo doesn't really oppose the Greeks. He has a ton of reasons to by the time the Iliad rolls around, including avenging the death of two of his sons, but he remains mostly satisfied with conducting his father's business and overseeing the war from a somewhat professional perspective. To me, it's always been less about Apollo caring about the fate of Troy as a city itself and more about him just really wanting to protect the people in the city that he's come to love and respect.

Of course, I encourage you to take my words with a big tablespoon of salt - like I said, I don't really know enough about the facts in particular to give a solid, confident answer but I can give you my interpretation of it. Maybe consult someone like @littlesparklight for a more comprehensive and grounded response 🤔

[sarahreesbrennan]

LONG LIVE EVIL IN LOCUS

I was delighted LONG LIVE EVIL was reviewed in @locusmagazine’s July print issue, described as ‘a wholehearted embrace of, and a commentary on, the high-fantasy high-angst high-romance end of the fantasy genre … It’s very entertaining.’ I do not share the whole review, but I did really appreciate and want to highlight the love for Emer, one of my POV characters, wicked maid to a wicked mistress, but… as you can see, it’s complex! Part of why I wanted to write a villain ensemble is that I wanted to write several ladies in a fantasy pressure cooker, with real connections that are being tested in real ways. I feel sometimes because people are (understandably) tired of ‘ladies being catty to each other’ there’s pressure to portray friendships, romances between women and literal sisterhood as all hearts and flowers or you’re doing something wrong. And I love me some sisterhood, but once more I choose villainy. I’d rather be wicked and write wickedly if I and the women I write can be wrong, and hurtful, and complicated people who have to navigate complicated situations.

In LONG LIVE EVIL I wanted to show how relationships between women can also be fraught, tangled, tested, heartbreaking—and hilarious when your previously cunning mistress starts yelling ‘I SEE THE FUTURE!’ (Which is what I’d consider doing if I got isekai’d, but I’d never seen it ((and when you don’t see something, time to go write it…)) and then of course, what is a false prophet but a storyteller, what is an ill fortune teller but a witch, and what did Cassandra get even though her predictions for Troy all came true in the end…) We get a lot of aristocratic PoVs in fantasy and those are extremely fun, but with Emer I did want to take a deep dive into what it means to, essentially, be assigned evil minion at birth. What if your job is to help create the sexy (& therefore evil) & somewhat artificial (& therefore evil) beauty but that’s not at all how you present yourself? Might living the belowstairs Downton Abbey life at Skullcrusher Mountain not drive you to become fantasy Lizzie Borden? So happy to see a spotlight for Emer—I love her and I hope you all will too. Sooooon.