#sith discourse

[kateeorg]

Between the gods discourse from Critical Role and the Force/Jedi/Sith discourse from The Acolyte, I'm just like... even fictional religion is stressful to talk about, man. Really interesting, sure, but the implications and different factions and multitude of things to consider just make my head hurt and I need to stop looking at it and take a break.

[asteroids-and-tractorbeams]

Everyone saying “boo hoo if only Anakin had a therapist” sure is forgetting that scene with Yoda where he was trying to figure out if Anakin was okay and he completely denied that there was anything wrong at all

[underwaterspiderbird]

you know it, i know it, your pet rock knows it, your kyber crystal knows it, we all know it.

[the-far-bright-center]

In my view, ‘Star Wars’ is the Prequels and Original Trilogy—aka, the story of Anakin’s rise, fall, and redemption. In other words, the Skywalker saga. I simply cannot relate to the (imo, fanon) idea that the Jedi are the MAIN protagonists of the story. This was never the case, not in the Lucas saga, at least. It’s not that the Jedi are the ‘bad guys’, either—it’s just that the Skywalker family is what the saga is actually about. The Sith vs. Jedi struggle is simply the *backdrop* against which the story is set. The fact that so many fans seem to insist otherwise is one of the many reasons I struggle to engage with current SW fandom.

[dathomirdumpsterfire]

(credits to @matt-murdvck and @former-ly-darth for orig gifs)

[vigilskeep]

sorry for that post i watched the start of a new star wars show with my brother and i briefly went into the tags to see what people are saying and i couldn’t quite believe how much it sucks in there. wow. the memories

[redstuffs-ig]

star wars fans when a show doesn't lick the jedi's boots a new shine: 🤯

star wars fans when a show doesn't beat the shit out of the jedi with lead pipes: 🤯

[bluntblade]

Every time someone utters a "Palpatine would have protected his people from the Vong or the Gryssk" kind of take in my presence, they very nearly get bludgeoned to death by the historian in me and the Warhammer 40K fan in me.

The historian is clubbing then with a copy of Barbarossa: History's Bloodiest War, while the 40K fan dual-wields Wrath of Iron and a lore book on Tyranid invasions.

[marveltaughtmetoread]

So I just saw a post which was an AU of what if the clones didn't have a chip but we're just trained to be undercover so knew they were out to destroy the Jedi from the start because the Jedi were bad, but they slowly started to realise maybe the Jedi weren't bad

And there are three main issues with that

First, the clones wouldn't realise the Jedi are good guys and come around to them cause they're not

Second, you think Palpatine is gonna leave destroying the Jedi up to free will

Thirdly, why would being exposed to the outside world, with free will, not lead all clones to abandon both Palpatine and the Jedi

The Jedi were not good to the clones

There is a point to be made about how the Jedi weren't good to the subjects of the Republic but these aren't the subjects of the Republic, these are clone troopers, purpose made for war, essentially slaves

I have already gone on a rant about the flaws with using slaves in general

But I can also go on one about how there are clear signs that the Jedi, specifically when it comes to the clones, do not care about them

Obi Wan is his own post, which I haven't made yet but intend to, so we are not talking about him

You can see from the clones interactions with Plo that they aren't treated well, there is a reason they favour him and you can tell from the fact that Anakin is the outlier that they really aren't treated well

In his interactions with the clones, Plo is the typical level of reserved that all Jedi are also its own separate rant but what's unusual to the clones about Plo is that he tries to save them

In one of the first episodes we get with Plo, he and his clones are stranded in space, waiting for death, and the clones are surprised at the efforts he does to save them

You can tell from the way they respond, the resignation clear in it, that they were expecting him to abandon them because that's what they were used to, that's what happens to clones

And I am sure people are already going to point to the episode where the clones are used as canon fodder and the consequences the Jedi who treats them as such faces for it, as proof that well clearly the Jedi wouldn't abandon their clones, clearly the clones are treated well because a Jedi using them as canon fodder was called out so doesn't this prove that Plo's actions weren't unusual and the clones had no basis to believe they would be abandoned

Which first of all, there is a world of difference between canon fodder and being resigned to being abandoned, it's one thing to send people to their deaths (wasting resources) and abandoning someone once they have fulfilled their mission

Which is proved by the fact that there was consequences for using them as canon fodder but none for abandoning the clones

The clones had every reason to be resigned to being abandoned because they would have been had Plo not stuck with them and Anakin not disobeyed orders to save them

Let's remember Anakin disobeyed orders to save Plo and the small contingency of clones left

Which yes, it might have been dangerous to go and save them and Plo was also left to die with them, but do you seriously think that makes it better, do you seriously think the clones wouldn't have come to resent the Jedi who sent them to die in a war and then abandoned them when the cost to save an entire fleets lives was seen as too high

Secondly, the only reason the Jedi who used clones as canon fodder and was a terrible leader was ever called out was because he did it to Anakin's clones, he had already done it before, this wasn't his first time treating clones this way, it was just the first time the clones resisted and fought back

And it is significant that it happened with Anakin's clones, Anakin who is a bad Jedi, an outlier, who is always meant to be read as going against what a Jedi should do

Yet it is he who saw his clones as people, interacted with them, joked with them, had their trust

It is significant that he is the one who ended up with clones that resisted Jedi orders, who outright disobeyed them, and who overthrow the Jedi

All things clones aren't meant to do (because their slaves trained to only obey and fight), all things Anakin would have done, which rather obviously implies the corrupted Jedi would never have faced consequences if he hadn't been given command of a force as rebellious as their true general

And there were likely more Jedi like this, ones that we don't see and likely wouldn't have been called out

So, even ignoring the clones status as slaves, the Jedi seem uncaring and oblivious to the plight of their clone army, abandoning them when it no longer suits the Jedi to save them, and oblivious to the abuse of their clones, because there is no system to check the power of the Jedi with a slave army

In what world would the small acts of kindness, such as acknowledging their individuality, be enough to undue the resentment built up by being treated as disposable war machines

Especially when desertion is punished, so they have literally no choice but to fight in a war they didn't want to

The Jedi would not have been the good guys in their eyes, there is just no way leaders who treat their army like that, would have been liked if the clones had a choice

Palpatine ain't allowing free will

This is a man who groomed Anakin for the dark side, who even knowing he was already falling, decided to manipulate him into finally becoming a Sith, who then punished him for falling to defeat Obi Wan by giving him a suit which didn't restore him to the full strength he could have gotten

A man who so meticulously planned the fall of the Republic and the Jedi for over a decade, even before the Prequels began

And you think he is leaving his final triumph up to the free will of a disposable army

Hell no, they are being implanted with chips no matter what for Palpatine to stay in character

The Clones aren't choosing to get into a fight if they have a choice

If the clones had free will, why would they choose to continue fighting for an Order that barely cares for them and a leader who is actually evil

Why wouldn't they all, with their own individuality, choose different paths

We have an example of a clone deserting and starting a family, even with the indoctrination of being raised as a clone and the chip in his brain so why wouldn't more clones, in a world without the chip, follow his lead

Why would they stick with the Jedi who lead them to their deaths for a cause that has genuinely nothing to do with them

[mandalora]

It’s probably an inevitability of a franchise being this far reaching and this popular and this long lasting but it is so baffling how much of the wider star wars fanbase tries to “fix” star wars

[bereft-of-frogs]

…

To the person with the villain manifesto in the acolyte tag this morning, I’m not going to pretend I don’t understand where your point is coming from and I understand it’s reactionary, and I’ve certainly been on the villain-stan side plenty of times before…

But also I have not been fighting for my life on Reddit for weeks defending Vernestra’s character and having to see people call her a bitch, and challenging everyone accusing Indara of being a secret Sith Lord because I suspect audiences just don’t know what to do with reserved female characters and are looking for a more comfortable explanation for her demeanor, to have someone imply that I’m upholding the conservative patriarchy for favoring them over the male villain now.

I’m sorry to wade into the discourse. I also love Manny Jacinto. But…my Jedi ladies 😭

UPDATE: I’m getting downvoted for calling out the sexism in Darth Plagueis and agreeing with someone that I hope Osha ends up being Plagueis (fairly obviously joking as well lol, I know it’s not going to happen but it would be hilarious), yup, there I go upholding the patriarchy for favoring the heroes

[christensen]

there is truly no moderation in the star wars fandom, it's either "here's how the jedi were acktchually evil and the real villains of the series" or "protecc my baby space wizards who have never done anything wrong and are the perfect unflawed heroes and have absolutely no depth whatsoever uwu"

[maloosh-baloosh64]

lowkey very happy im not the only one who dislike the jedi in star wars holy shit i thought i was losing my mind

[underwaterspiderbird]

there’s no such thing as “light” or “dark” sides of the force, there never was. its all just different expressions & experiences of the same energy field. “falling to the dark side” is but a religious scare tactic akin to “you’re good and are going to heaven if you believe what we believe but if you don’t you’re gonna burn in hell for all eternity”, no amount of palpatine’s generation of fuckery, the psychos within the sith that could also be found within any group of ppl, or jedi worship will ever convince me otherwise.

suck it bitches

[the-far-bright-center]

In discussions of TCW-Anakin vs. film-Anakin, I understand why some people see them as being incompatible or entirely different portrayals. But whatever problems I personally have with TCW are more to do with certain OOC dialogue lines that I don't agree with, or the overly-contrived situations that TCW tends to force him into just so an episode or scene can function as a 'meta-commentary' on his character or storyline. Believe me, I have issues with specific aspects of TCW's writing for Anakin, but the fact he's more outwardly 'suave' or 'dashing' than some people expected is not one of them. If anything, I see the 'Skyguy' persona as perfectly in keeping with Anakin as portrayed at the beginning of RotS, and I would argue that a great deal of the TCW characterisation is pulled directly from those Battle of Coruscant scenes. TCW Anakin is also heavily inspired by Jake Lloyd's Little Ani in TPM, which, lest anyone forget, counts as FILM-Anakin. Seriously, do people not recall how much swagger and self-confidence little Ani has at the beginning of TPM? (🎵Do you see him hitting on the queen, though he’s just nine and she’s fourteen.’ 🎶 😅) He's a hotshot little ace podracing pilot and he knows it! And in AotC, the only reasons Anakin comes across as more 'awkward' at the beginning is that he's nervous about seeing Padme again after so long. Once he knows for sure she reciprocates his feelings at the battle of Geonosis, the suave, confident Anakin is back! And thus by the time of the Clone Wars, it makes sense that after being a general in the war in charge of many men, he'd have to have a certain level of outward charisma no matter how much inner doubt or turmoil he might be feeling. So, in my opinion, the actual baseline 'persona' for both versions of the character isn't as different as some seem to think. I'm tired of the idea that film-Anakin ISN’T supposed to be seen as ‘cool’ in-universe, just as much as I’m tired of the idea that TCW-Anakin ISN’T supposed to be viewed as a figure of pathos by the audience, either.

Imo, they’re both takes on the same character coming from different angles, set at different stages in his life, and portrayed through different mediums — an animated series heavy on self-aware, darkly ironic humour in a more contemporary style intended to entertain and increase enjoyment of the Prequels-era and its characters. vs. a more serious Greek tragedy with Shakespearean overtones made with old-Hollywood-style sensibilities as part of a mythic six-film saga.

While there are plenty of things that TCW gets wrong about Anakin (see my 'TCW discourse' tag for more on that), dismissing him because he is ‘too macho’ seems to miss the mark a bit. Just because TCW Ani doesn’t shed literal tears on-screen doesn’t mean he’s not emotional or emotionally vulnerable. As far as I remember, there's even a scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss the fact that Anakin has trouble keeping his emotions hidden, especially when it comes to his feelings for his loved ones, which is the opposite of the stereotypical stoic, self-reliant 'macho' ideal. And the amount of times we're constantly bashed over the head with dramatic irony about his fate as Vader in that series surely drives home the point that his trajectory is a decidedly tragic one. (The way he cries out in agony in the Mortis arc, 'I will do such terrible things!' gets to me, every time.) Despite his powers and prowess, TCW Anakin is even shown as being physically vulnerable at times, as well — see the Jedi Crash storyline which he spends mostly knocked-out unconscious, the nod to his mechanical arm as a liability in the Zillo Beast and Citadel arcs, and the scene of him futilely struggling like a wild beast before being captured with ropes in the Zyggerian arc, or the fact he gets captured and tortured by Dooku in 'Shadow Warrior'. I see endless jokes about TCW Ani getting electrocuted every other episode, but then fandom uses this to fuel the dismissive view of him as just some dumb himbo instead of understanding that this, too, is supposed to add to the character's pathos.

Likewise, fandom claims that Prequels-Anakin is 'uncool' and 'cries all the time', which is simply not true. As noted above, film-Anakin banters, jokes, laughs, makes daring jumps out of speeders, does bold piloting moves, is in fact an imposing duellist, and so on. Sure, his character is not supposed to be seen as aspirational (obviously!) and the most memorable and dramatic moments of the latter two Prequels films feature him in the midst of extremely intense emotions. But the oft-repeated view of him as 'uncool' completely ignores the fact that by the time that RotS starts, film-Anakin is supposed to be a well-known and widely-admired charismatic general, aka the Hero With No Fear, who is viewed as almost singlehandedly saving the Republic. The audience may be privy to Anakin's inner struggles with his fear of loss, but in-story he is supposed to be seen as THE golden boy of the Jedi Order and the Republic. The RotS novelization frequently mentions that Anakin has 'dash', 'boldness', and a 'presence' 'like the Holo-Net hero that he is'. It literally says he's the best at what he does and he KNOWS it. He's not just supposed to be an awkward idiot in the way some people seem to perceive him solely based on certain scenes in AotC. Rather, he's supposed to be shown as falling from a 'great height'. By the time of RotS, film Anakin has just as much swagger and self-confidence in his role as General Skywalker as he does in TCW. Just because that side of him is not the main focus of the film doesn't mean it's not supposed to be there.

[garaviel]

Being a legends mando fan and a legends mando critic at the same time feels like holding my hand in the garbage disposal for funsies