#tcw discourse

[the-far-bright-center]

Re: Obitine and Anidala

I originally wrote this in response to @marvelstars' excellent post on the subject, but I wanted to share it again because it's one of many topics in which I have a differing view from the prevailing fandom perspective.

Above all, it truly drives me nuts how the fandom pits these two relationships against each other. I'm a die-hard Anidala shipper and when I first watched TCW, I was DELIGHTED by the Obitine ship. I saw nothing about it that made me think it was supposed to be viewed as somehow 'better' or more 'ideal' than Anidala. I only ever saw it as a relationship that was more suited to Obi-Wan's character and personality. Not to mention that Padme and Satine are presented as friends who get along well and go on adventures together to right political wrongs, much in the same vein that Anakin and Obi-Wan go on their many military exploits together. The story sets them up as two couples who, in an a more ideal timeline, would be besties who go on double dates together. In my opinion, fandom's insistence on viewing them through the lens of 'which one is a 'morally better couple' is completely missing the point. Personally, I see them as two sides of the same coin.

Since @marvelstars' post was specifically about these two couples as they relate to the idea of commitment to the Jedi Order, I also focused on that angle. Imo, the way Obitine's relationship panned out made sense for their characters and context. Just like Anidala's makes sense for theirs. Obi-Wan and Satine met each other as young adults and had a whole year 'on the run' together before having to say their farewells, whereas Anakin and Padme first meet as children, then re-meet and fall in love over a short span of time, and then suddenly their world is at war and they are facing imminent, possibly indefinite, separation. That's why they marry while still remaining in their respective Jedi and Senator roles, because they feel it might be their only chance to have anything resembling the family they both long for. They understand that they might not survive the war. Whereas Obi-Wan and Satine had first met when Satine's world was already enmeshed in civil war, and then they parted once peace was reestablished and their lives were no longer in immediate danger. And when they meet again during the Clone Wars, it's a wholly different scenario and things have drastically changed (she is the head of a neutral system, he is already established as a general in a war she is opposed to). They are also older, in their 30s, while Anakin and Padme embody the headstrong impetuosity and passion of young love. So it's not as though Obi-Wan and Satine are going to drop everything and enter a committed relationship/marriage in that context in the same way Anakin and Padme do in theirs (when, notably, Anakin is still a padawan and about to be sent to the frontlines to fight in a war for the first time).

As mentioned above, when I was watching TCW I never thought that the purpose of showing both of these relationships in contrasting-parallel to one another was somehow to demonstrate that one was more 'sacrificial' for remaining in the Order and giving up the relationship while the other was more 'selfish' for trying to have both at the same time. Rather, what I feel the story is actually saying is something completely different. It's important to remember that both of these relationships involve a Jedi and the political leader to whom he had originally been assigned as a bodyguard. What is the significance of that? Well, I would argue it's more than just a romantic trope. When I watch Lucas-era Star Wars, I'm always aware that the characters have both an immediate role in-story as well as a symbolic function. Satine, a pacifist, can be seen to represent Peace. Padme, as a Senator, stands for Justice and the rights of the people. And what is it that Obi-Wan says to Luke all those years later? That the Jedi were 'the guardians of Peace and Justice in the old Republic'. This strikes me as hugely significant. Especially if we understand that the Jedi Order had lost its way as of the Prequels-era. While the fandom focuses on which couple is 'better' because of how their relationship affects each Jedi's respective commitment to the Order, I see it from a completely different angle. My understanding is that the Jedi's TRUE purpose (in relation to their role within the Republic) was actually to dedicate their lives to protecting Peace and Justice and those who truly upheld these ideals in the galaxy. Obi-Wan and Anakin's actual callings in life should have been to protect Satine and Padme, whom they loved. Whether this manifested in a more chivalric, courtly love scenario or an outright marriage is immaterial. Rather, what matters is that being a Jedi and dedicating their lives to these women due to their love for them was not incompatible with their role as protectors and defenders of the galaxy, but was in fact the truest expression of it. The so-called 'commitment' to the Order itself was never truly the point, and that's the tragedy of the Prequels-era. Because it was the Order that had by this point forbidden love and family, and which had embroiled Obi-Wan and Anakin and the rest of the Jedi in a war that went against their own principles. A war that, it could be argued, ultimately lead to the deaths of both Satine and Padme, and with them Peace and Justice—the very values that the Jedi were supposed to protect and serve.

[the-far-bright-center]

#seriously... this episode bridged the clone wars gap for me in a way that i didn't think would ever happen! #looks JUST like tcw!anakin... and i have always thought that tcw!anakin looks absolutely nothing like actual anakin! #so to see hayden dress in this clone wars outfit - and looking AMAZING in that outfit - just really strengthens the oneness of the story #they ARE the same character and hayden is standing next to ahsoka with his hair short and his early-clone wars armor on #iconic (via @secondearthling)

Maybe everyone will finally understand what I've been trying to say all this time, that Prequels-Anakin and TCW-Anakin aren't totally irreconcilable, they're just different facets of the same character seen from different angles and at different stages of his life. (And obviously portrayed via different mediums/genres.) TCW Anakin is 'General Skywalker', the Hero With No Fear, in his prime. He's poised between youthfully awkward padawan Anakin in AotC and 'pushed-to-the-brink-of-falling-to-the-Dark Side' Anakin in RotS. The difference may have confounded some viewers, but Clone Wars-era Anakin is SUPPOSED to have more swagger and confidence than he did in AotC. Also, while TCW Anakin's animated appearance doesn’t really resemble Hayden, he was nonetheless very obviously designed to look like TPM's 'little Ani'. So I never thought of TCW Anakin as 'not' Anakin, just as an AU version that grew up to look more like Jake Lloyd Ani than Hayden Ani. But of course, it IS neat to see Hayden embody that version of Anakin as well. I've done my own artistic interpretations of 'realistic' TCW Anakin over the years, so it's nice that others are seeing the potential I've always seen at long last.

GENERAL ANAKIN SKYWALKER in his The Clone Wars glory

[the-far-bright-center]

It's baffling to me that a certain subset of the SW fandom is willing to accept some of TCW’s most ridiculous story arcs and blatantly OOC characterisations as literal canon, but then pretend that they 'can't believe' that Padme could possibly fall for Anakin in the actual Prequels films.

Really? You can believe that space-godzilla goes on a rampage and destroys a sector of Coruscant, that several of the main characters are kept as slaves by an evil cat-queen, that Obi-Wan fakes his own death (complete with a pretend funeral) and callously traumatises everyone who cares about him in the process, and that Maul somehow survives TPM and is at one point a ROBOTIC SPIDER ...

... but you can't believe that two child prodigies who formed a bond while mutually aiding one another can meet again years later under intensely emotional circumstances during the outbreak of a galactic war and legitimately fall in love with each other and get married?

Really???

[the-far-bright-center]

In discussions of TCW-Anakin vs. film-Anakin, I understand why some people see them as being incompatible or entirely different portrayals. But whatever problems I personally have with TCW are more to do with certain OOC dialogue lines that I don't agree with, or the overly-contrived situations that TCW tends to force him into just so an episode or scene can function as a 'meta-commentary' on his character or storyline. Believe me, I have issues with specific aspects of TCW's writing for Anakin, but the fact he's more outwardly 'suave' or 'dashing' than some people expected is not one of them. If anything, I see the 'Skyguy' persona as perfectly in keeping with Anakin as portrayed at the beginning of RotS, and I would argue that a great deal of the TCW characterisation is pulled directly from those Battle of Coruscant scenes. TCW Anakin is also heavily inspired by Jake Lloyd's Little Ani in TPM, which, lest anyone forget, counts as FILM-Anakin. Seriously, do people not recall how much swagger and self-confidence little Ani has at the beginning of TPM? (🎵Do you see him hitting on the queen, though he’s just nine and she’s fourteen.’ 🎶 😅) He's a hotshot little ace podracing pilot and he knows it! And in AotC, the only reasons Anakin comes across as more 'awkward' at the beginning is that he's nervous about seeing Padme again after so long. Once he knows for sure she reciprocates his feelings at the battle of Geonosis, the suave, confident Anakin is back! And thus by the time of the Clone Wars, it makes sense that after being a general in the war in charge of many men, he'd have to have a certain level of outward charisma no matter how much inner doubt or turmoil he might be feeling. So, in my opinion, the actual baseline 'persona' for both versions of the character isn't as different as some seem to think. I'm tired of the idea that film-Anakin ISN’T supposed to be seen as ‘cool’ in-universe, just as much as I’m tired of the idea that TCW-Anakin ISN’T supposed to be viewed as a figure of pathos by the audience, either.

Imo, they’re both takes on the same character coming from different angles, set at different stages in his life, and portrayed through different mediums — an animated series heavy on self-aware, darkly ironic humour in a more contemporary style intended to entertain and increase enjoyment of the Prequels-era and its characters. vs. a more serious Greek tragedy with Shakespearean overtones made with old-Hollywood-style sensibilities as part of a mythic six-film saga.

While there are plenty of things that TCW gets wrong about Anakin (see my 'TCW discourse' tag for more on that), dismissing him because he is ‘too macho’ seems to miss the mark a bit. Just because TCW Ani doesn’t shed literal tears on-screen doesn’t mean he’s not emotional or emotionally vulnerable. As far as I remember, there's even a scene where Obi-Wan and Anakin discuss the fact that Anakin has trouble keeping his emotions hidden, especially when it comes to his feelings for his loved ones, which is the opposite of the stereotypical stoic, self-reliant 'macho' ideal. And the amount of times we're constantly bashed over the head with dramatic irony about his fate as Vader in that series surely drives home the point that his trajectory is a decidedly tragic one. (The way he cries out in agony in the Mortis arc, 'I will do such terrible things!' gets to me, every time.) Despite his powers and prowess, TCW Anakin is even shown as being physically vulnerable at times, as well — see the Jedi Crash storyline which he spends mostly knocked-out unconscious, the nod to his mechanical arm as a liability in the Zillo Beast and Citadel arcs, and the scene of him futilely struggling like a wild beast before being captured with ropes in the Zyggerian arc, or the fact he gets captured and tortured by Dooku in 'Shadow Warrior'. I see endless jokes about TCW Ani getting electrocuted every other episode, but then fandom uses this to fuel the dismissive view of him as just some dumb himbo instead of understanding that this, too, is supposed to add to the character's pathos.

Likewise, fandom claims that Prequels-Anakin is 'uncool' and 'cries all the time', which is simply not true. As noted above, film-Anakin banters, jokes, laughs, makes daring jumps out of speeders, does bold piloting moves, is in fact an imposing duellist, and so on. Sure, his character is not supposed to be seen as aspirational (obviously!) and the most memorable and dramatic moments of the latter two Prequels films feature him in the midst of extremely intense emotions. But the oft-repeated view of him as 'uncool' completely ignores the fact that by the time that RotS starts, film-Anakin is supposed to be a well-known and widely-admired charismatic general, aka the Hero With No Fear, who is viewed as almost singlehandedly saving the Republic. The audience may be privy to Anakin's inner struggles with his fear of loss, but in-story he is supposed to be seen as THE golden boy of the Jedi Order and the Republic. The RotS novelization frequently mentions that Anakin has 'dash', 'boldness', and a 'presence' 'like the Holo-Net hero that he is'. It literally says he's the best at what he does and he KNOWS it. He's not just supposed to be an awkward idiot in the way some people seem to perceive him solely based on certain scenes in AotC. Rather, he's supposed to be shown as falling from a 'great height'. By the time of RotS, film Anakin has just as much swagger and self-confidence in his role as General Skywalker as he does in TCW. Just because that side of him is not the main focus of the film doesn't mean it's not supposed to be there.

[mearchy]

Characters from + during TCW alignment chart pt 2 (":

[peregrine-ing]

People are always up in a fuss about the Jedi's strict rules, as if they weren't and order of essentially monks? Their rules aren't even that difficult to follow, even the attachment rule boils down to "remember your vows to the overall good of the galaxy. Duty comes first. Don't be a possessive jerk to people". to me this is just having a healthy relationship.

I've also heard alot of people saying that the jedi want you to bottle up your emotions. No? have a healthy emotional control and response. Don't let them control your actions. Understand your emotions, examine them and where they come from and let them go. All pretty standard mediation stuff tbh

[xplore-the-unknwn]

Ive been laughing for almost an hour at this. Im thinking that OP was right. The entire casting team and production team was in on it too. 🤣🤣

I mean tbh 👀👀

They saw Ewan McGregor and then George Lucas just went and said… 👀👀

✨Let us make him a slut.✨

like it was some Bible verse and thus the Sluttiest and Sassiest Jedi was born.

[katsmtmsdoodles]

Reblog for bigger sample size! Based on this post by @rigorwhoring

Part 2 | Part 3 | Part 4

[marveltaughtmetoread]

Masterlist of all my anti-Jedi posts

The Meta:

The divide between Prequels era fans Here

The way you take the story depends on how you look at it Here

The Jedi's downfall is a tragedy and this inevitable and that doesn't mean I support genocide wtf??? Here

The Clone Wars both wants the Jedi to be unquestionably good and be three dimensional and these things conflict Here

The Republic and the Jedi are shown to have fallen in the canon but the audience overlooks it cause the Separatists are the bad guys Here

Why are we treating the massacre of the Tusken Raiders so lightly???? Here

The Jedi being the issue:

The Jedi Order is itself flawed Here

The Jedi's actions are the issue, it doesn't actually matter how they internally handle their emotions in the face of those actions Here

The Jedi encourage emotional repression, thanks Here

My issue with the Jedi's attitude towards attachment Here

The Jedi aren't impartial they just don't care Here

The Jedi having all the force sensitive kids is weird actually Here

The Clone issue:

The clones are slaves and we need to acknowledge that Here

On a similar note, there is no AU where the clones have free will that is consistent with the canon Here

Anakin:

Anakin's fears are valid actually Here

How can Anakin be too old to become a Jedi, how is this not alarming to you Here

[the-far-bright-center]

a gentle reminder: on this blog, TCW =/= Disney Star Wars

While I understand that some of my fellow Anidala fans may dislike The Clone Wars, please keep in mind that I am not a TCW hater. In fact, I have a great deal of nostalgia and fondness for the first five seasons of the show (2008-2013) which were created during the Lucas era. While I have criticisms of certain aspects of the series and don't consider it to be 'canon' on the same level as the films, I certainly don't hate it and would prefer not to see constant negative remarks about it on my otherwise unrelated posts. (If anyone wishes to know my thoughts on TCW in more detail, check out my 'tcw discourse' tag.)

Likewise, for my fellow anti-Disney followers, please note that when I write my anti-Disney posts, I'm not including the original seasons of TCW in that. If I tag something 'anti-disney', I'm referring to what has been released since TFA, because it was the Disney sequels that tried to negate and destroy everything I love about Star Wars. My issues with Disney canon do not stem from TCW, they originate entirely from the supposed premise of TFA/the sequels. The whole reason I don't watch Disney SW anymore is because I completely disagree with the cynical, destructive, out-of-character, and decidedly anti-Skywalker version of events in Disney's post-RotJ storyline. This has nothing to do with the original seasons of TCW, which were created solely with the PT x OT saga in mind. So even though I am vehemently anti-Disney, and despite the fact that Disney has absorbed the TCW storyline and characters into its so-called canon, I consider all of the Lucas-era Clone Wars material (TCW 2008, Clone Wars 2003, EU comics and novels, etc), to be its own separate thing. So please, I would ask people not to conflate my anti-disney posts with whatever issues they may have with TCW—in my personal view, these are two separate entities and the criticisms I have of each are coming from totally different places.

[azurecanary]

Hey remember that one time Ahsoka Tano was ready to kill her former master out of revenge for Order 66 but stopped at the last minute so she could ensure the last of the Jedi could escape, thereby sacrificing herself?

Hey remember when Ahsoka experienced constant survivor's guilt for being the last survivor the Order, and even felt like she didn't deserve it because she walked away?

Hey remember in Siege of Mandalore where she said she eventually would want to return to the Order?

Ahsoka hates the Jedi, my ass

[the-far-bright-center]

#it's his proudest moment!!! #he made his mom proud! #he helped Qui-Gon! #he helped Padme! #he also gave some of his winnings to his slave friends to help them out #it's the day he won his freedom #but it's also so bittersweet in the context #(he left his mother behind... and then later lost her) #and now he's this big time war hero #but his proudest moment is still from when he was a child #before he even joined the Order (via @the-far-bright-center)

Anakin keeps a poster of the Boonta Eve Classic he won in his bedroom in the Jedi Temple.

[bereft-of-frogs]

I'm wondering if my longstanding refusal to watch the 2008 Clone Wars is contributing to my utter inability to comprehend all the 'star wars is RUINED' complaints.

if I can contentedly exist refusing to acknowledge the thing that 99% of the fandom considers to be essential canon, that makes up the majority of the fanworks, art, and posts, I think you can handle disregarding one self-contained, 8 episode series that takes place a hundred years before anything else if you really want to. I really think you're going to live.

[mustafar-far-away]

Anakin could have been balanced, equal in the Force. Maybe not emotionally, yet. maybe not physically, yet (he may be too strong) but in the Force, he understands that love is the Force. But the force is not only love. it is power. Anakin has both. He does not understand that they can exist together, in harmony, when he has been taught that they are a strange polarization he is forced to exist in. He would have been an amazing teacher. But he *felt* like he was forced to choose, and he fell. He knew he fell, but how can you climb out of a hole that was made for you, dug by the people you love? Impulsively has always helped, so how could he know this compulsion would shatter life as he knew it? How could he trust himself again? How could you face yourself? you fucked up, and nobody who could love you and hold you accountable exists anymore. You did this.

Anakin is dead. long live Vader, Palpatine thinks as his very burned and irritatingly weakened apprentice is placed into a suit, hopefully a suit that accompanies the punishment of attachment. but soon, Vader stirs. And it is musical to his rotten Sith brain.

Vader howls

NO!

and Palpatine smiles. He may be able to use this pathetic boy after all.

[hastalavistabyebye]

So you know this AI cover of Somewhere only we know ?

Well, I find it absolutely hilarious BUT I'm also completely frustrated that they didn't change the lyrics to match.

I've fixed it :D

I didn't change much of the original song and kept the good number of syllabes to match the rhythm. I also made sure it kept rhyming. It's not the absolute best but heh who said that B1 droids and clones were good lyricists ?

Somewhere on Kamino :

I walked across an empty land

I knew the pathway like the back of my hand

I felt the earth beneath my feet

Sat by the river and I thought of my fleet

Past enemy, where have you gone?

I'm getting old, and I need something to remind on

So, tell me when you’re gonna cease fire

I'm getting tired, and I would like to retire

I came across a fallen tree

I felt the branches of it looking at me

Is this the place we used to fight ?

Is this the place that I have feared at night ?

Past enemy, where have you gone?

I'm getting old, and I need something to remind on

So, tell me when you’re gonna cease fire

I'm getting tired, and I would like to retire

And if you have a minute, why don't we go

Talk about peace somewhere on Kamino ?

This could be the end of everything

So, why don't we go somewhere on Kamino ?

Somewhere on Kamino

Past enemy, where have you gone?

I'm getting old, and I need something to remind on

So, tell me when you’re gonna cease fire

I'm getting tired, and I would like to retire

And if you have a minute, why don't we go

Talk about it somewhere on Kamino ?

This could be the end of everything

So, why don't we go?

So, why don't we go?

Ooh, oh-oh

Ah, oh

This could be the end of everything

So, why don't we go somewhere on Kamino ?

Somewhere on Kamino

Somewhere on Kamino

[voidartisan]

y'know. the other thing that bothers me about the hate for satine when justified by the "she committed cultural genocide" argument (which is, of course, completely unsupported by any canon material) is that Anakin has committed multiple unambiguous genocides on-screen. complete with cold-blooded child murder. but he still gets to be a beloved character in the vast majority of the fandom with some people going so far as to try to excuse him for them. and I'm just. trying to comprehend the logic here