#she will always be between babs and dick's age to me

[bisupergirl]

i saw your post saying about how she supergirl only cares about barbara and just tolerates bruce & dick & doesn't care about any of the other batfamm and you're soo right. but i feel like i remember reading a comic where she was close friends with steph??? am i making that up cause for some reason i thought they were sometimes friends

no you're right! they teamed up during post-crisis in steph's batgirl run and in world's finest (2009). i don't remember the exact issues, but yeah, her and steph were starting to become close towards the tail-end of post-crisis.

when it comes to kara's relationships with certain batfam members, my main priority is kara and what i find to be her ideal characterization. that mainly comes from her pre-crisis comics with some bits and pieces (and sometimes large chunks) mixed in from other continuities, so ideally for me, kara is an adult woman who is close with babs and doesn't really have a reason to be that close with the younger members of the batfam. i don't find the friendships she's had with characters like tim, steph, damian, or kate to be all that special or meaningful for her, so really i just ignore them.

[toulousewayne]

Batfam and Batsis Headcannon: Ages 17-21

Tim:

Timothy Jackson Drake, was a little menace. Y/n knew that from the Time she found him on her doorstep. Tim was the first person Y/n felt like she had to really be careful of her actions in front of. Not because Tim would copy her but because she felt like she was supposed to set an example something she never had to do.

Tim becoming Robin was a bit of a blur for her, she just remembers them patrolling a lot and Tim asking her a lot questions in the beginning.

Tim didn’t live at the manor right away in fact it was a bit into his career before he fully moved in after his parents respected passings.

Tim felt guilty for not saving his father and Y/n spend a lot of time with him to help resolve this feelings because it wasn’t Tim’s fault.

Tim was the little brother she always wanted, he steal her eyeliner and she storm into his room and pick with him while Kon,Bart and Cassie would come over. They loved Tim’s cool older sister and she liked them.

Tim had trouble with words, especially with his feelings. It was no surprise to anyone that Tim walked into his sister’s room on a random Thrusday Night with blush on his face.

“What is it Little Bird?” She inquired while still having her face shoved in a Physics textbook.

Scratching the back of his neck and breathed out a strangled sign,” How do you know when you like someone?”

Y/n turned her gaze to him,”Like or Like Like?”

“Like like.”

“Boy or Girl?”

His blush grew even darker,”Well uhh..”

“Doesn’t matter to me, but just be your normal dorky self. Just don’t word vomit. You tend to do that Little Bird.”

Tim came out to his older sister first years later because she made Tim feel seen but not like it wasn’t a big deal.

Tim and Y/n formed a a very fun bond, it even rivaled his bond with Dick which made the older man a little jealous but it made him become more active with his younger brother which was something Y/n wanted him to do.

Patrol with Batgirl, Robin and Nightwing were the most comical nights Gotham had seen. You had a detective smartass Robin, a chatty hot headed older Bird, and the sassy and mysterious Batgirl. Riddler still has nightmares.

But things began to change and soon other additions became known.

Cassandra:

Y/n had made it clear to Bruce that she wanted a sister, not that she didn’t enjoy her time with Tim and Dick and even Jason. But she wanted someone who could relate to her.

One night after patrol Y/n returned to the Clock Tower and was introduced to Cass. She didn’t talk and once Barbara told her about what happened to her it only made Y/n more protective of her.

Between her and Babs Cass began to think for herself and not like how she was programmed by her father. Barbara taught Cass more about personal and emotional development, but Y/n showed Cass how to be a teenage girl.

She took her to the mall with Tim and let her pick out clothes she felt comfortable with, she let Cass take clothes from her closet in the end because it made her feel connected to people.

Y/n was training and Cass enter the room,”Sorry didn’t realize I was taking so long, I’ll clear out if you like.”

“No,your fine.” Cass responses. Cass takes a stance in front of her. Y/n gets in stance and they too spar. Cass can quickly match Y/n’s attacks and defenses.

The two sparred for a few hours before calling it. “Not bad Sis, how about a Root Beer Float on me?”

“Okie.”

Y/n wraps her arm around Cass and the pair walk out the gym. They two Wayne Sisters scare Bruce. And most men except Alfred.

Y/n was getting ready to graduate Gotham Academy with Honors and she felt kinda sad and Cass appeared before her and engulfed her in a hug.

“She would be proud.” She knew Cass was referring to Y/n’s Mom. “Thank you Sissy.”

Everyone attended,Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara, Tim, and Cass. She was so happy and Bruce threw a party at Wayne Manor for the graduation class.

Y/n took Cass from a group of kids she met at school and took her to her room.

“Cass I your aware that I’m leaving in a few weeks for college in Metropolis.” Cass nodded.

“As much fun as it would be to tag along with Uncle Clark, I just won’t have to time or really need to patrol. Which is why I talked to Babs a few days ago and I’m stepping down as Batgirl.”

Cass understood what she was saying but she also knew how hard Y/n worked to become the new Batgirl.

Y/n took a black box and handed it to Cass. “Me and Babs think your ready and I couldn’t ask for someone else to carry on the mantle.” Cass tore open the box to find her own Batgirl suit.

Tears formed in Cass’s eyes and she hugged Y/n

“I won’t let you down.”

“I know sis, your gonna rock.” Y/n smiled and hugged her back.

Stephanie:

Y/n had taken a step down from being Batgirl full time meaning for a short time Robin patrolled alone. She felt guilty but soon she learned that her little bird had a friend.

Y/n meet Stephanie when Tim and her became official, this was only a few months before she totally resigned from the mantle but she did get to work with Steph a hand full of times.

One of the last times was when ClueMaster escaped from Blackgate and threaten Stephanie’s Mom.

Spoiler spring into action and Batgirl responded to Oracle’s request to assist her. The two formed a plan of action to enter Stephanie’s Mom job and save the hostages.

“You take the left side and I’ll go right. Take the goons out swiftly and hard.”

“Rodger that Batgirl.”

The pair made quick work of the goons, and finally found ClueMaster who had Steph’s mom hostage.

Once they save her she was anything but thankful and resented her daughter for re-prisoning her father.

Batgirl called her own and made the woman feel bad but the damage was done as Stephanie told Batgirl on a rooftop later that night, she learned that she wasn’t to blame for her parents choices nor should she have to atone for her father’s sins.

“Your Steph, never let anyone tell you stop being who you are and never stop being a light for others.”

Even once Stephanie and Tim relationship became more friendly and less romantic Y/n loved the blonde just as much.

Steph would drive up on the weekends with Cass and visit her in college. They would go shopping, try new restaurants and go fun amusement parks.

Stephanie and Y/n become really good friends and if Y/n needed to talk someone who was her siblings or Dad Steph was always willing to listen.

Jason Pt 2:

When Red Hood first emerged Y/n was away in school and no one told her. She had a long weekend and came home to surprise her family. Alfred was the most surprised to find her at the door but by the look on his face it didn’t seem like she was the first surprise this week.

She soon found out about Dick’s bruised ribs and broken leg, and Tim being attacked at Titan’s tower. Even Bruce had token a beaten from his last encounter with Red Hood and Y/n was furious.

“HOW DARE YOU NOT TELL YOU GOT HURT!” She scolded her father.

“y/n, please we didn’t want to worry you, we have everything under—“

She scoffed,”Like Hell you do! Your hurt Dick is black and blue,and Tim looks like he just did three tours in World War Two.”

She bit her tongue,”Who is he Father?”

Bruce sighed,”Y/n..”

“I won’t ask twice.”

Bruce didn’t answer her but instead pressed the button on the computer that light up with the DNA test he just got the results back minutes before her arrival.

Over the course of a minute several different emotions washed over her face and it landed on stoic. She turned on her heels and left the cave with Bruce calling for her to wait.

In a hours time she stood in front of a door in an abandoned apartment complex and knocked on the door. When no once answered she kicked the door down. And in the center of the room was a man laughing with a sack on his head as he was tied and chained to a folding chair.

She marched to him and ripped off the sack and there was bloody and bruised Joker.

“Ooh hello your the beautiful Wayne Daughter that left. Welcome back cupcake.” He chuckled. The sound of the gun clicking filled the room with Joker’s blooded laughing.

“Turn around.” The deep voice ordered. Smirking to herself, “if you were gonna shot me you’d pull the trigger already big brother.”

The room is silent and before Red Hood screams in pain, when Y/n turns around his hand is bloody and a Batarang is on the ground.

“Stand down Jason, he’s not worth it.” Batman brooded.

“You never understood me Old man, I never wanted to kill innocent people. Not Harvey,not Bane just him. He took me away from you..from her. From everything.”

The two had a heated argument and fight that ended with Bruce shielding Y/n from the explosion of the building.

Y/n returned to Jason’s grave and laid flowers. Sighing to herself she stood up and turned to the tree adjacent to his grave.

“You could have found me, I would have helped you Jay. I still can.” Jason appeared in a hoodie and refused to look her in the eyes.

“You always saw the best in me, even when I didn’t deserve it.”

“Bullshit Todd, you can play that song all you want but it doesn’t work on me.” She snapped.

He finally met her gaze, it was the first time since prior to his death did she see his face. His blue eyes now a deep green, a white tuff of hair at the base of his hair, a scare on his left cheek, his eyes look tired as well.

“I’m not who I used to be, I’ve changed, I’ve killed and I can’t change that. They don’t see it but what I do is stop the murders, rapistst the monsters from hurting people.”

She signed,”I won’t lie and say Dad’s ways have flaws but so do yours,” she glanced at the tombstone and dusted it off.

“I remember you taking to me, you visted me all the time.” He grinned .

“And now your back.” She smiled

He didn’t meet her gaze,” it’s not gonna be happy in the Manor, maybe never again.”

“You could try to find out what you want Jay, not many get a second chance at life.”

He nodded and with that he sighed with a grin,”I make no promises, I’ll see you around sis.” And he left the graveyard and she sighed to herself knowing that it was possible but it would take sometime for them to get Jason back.

When she returned to the manor she heard shouting and screaming. She rushed into the living room where Bruce and Dick were trying to keep Tim and and a young boy from killing each other.

“That fucking Demon cut me!” Tim shrieked.

“And I’ll draw more of your pathetic blood imposter.” The boy hissed being held in a tight grip by Dick.

“I can’t leave you idiots alone for five minutes!” Y/n snapped and all the eyes turned to her.

The boy with the deep copper skin and jade eyes was the first to speak,”Is she another one of your bastards you plucked off the sidewalk.” He hissed at Bruce.

Y/n eyed the boy before she turned back to her father,”And who might he be.”

“Damian, he’s your little Brother Y/n.” A tired Bruce clarified.

“Brother!”

“SHE’S MY SISTER!”

[silverwhittlingknife]

the reason why nu52 Dick is so simultaneously messy and yet boring is because they don't let him be bitchy enough whilst simultaneously making him a little bitch

sdfsdfdsfs I don't totally understand what this means and yet I feel like I agree with the spirit, anon <3

Outsiders 21 - preboot Dick yelling at Bruce my beloved

Yeah, caveat that there's plenty of nu52 Dick stuff that I haven't read and I don't think it's all bad, but also... man, he is not for me. As far I'm concerned, the main good thing that came out of n52/Rebirth is some setups for sad!Dick fanfic. And yeah, "Dick is not bitchy enough" is actually a pretty good summary of my complaints sdfdsfs

The thing is, nu52 Dick has some similarities to preboot Tim, in that he'll sometimes be insincerely fake-cheerful even when actually upset, plus he periodically seems uncomfortable with direct confrontation so instead he lies to avoid confrontation. And mmm I mean, I like these qualities in preboot Tim, so it's not like I think these are terrible traits to have!!

BUT :

1) Preboot Tim has no authority. But preboot Dick does, and it's frustrating to take it away from him in nu52.

There's some post-2011 panel where Dick lies to Batman and is cheery about it, a la Tim bragging to his friends about lying to Batman in Teen Titans, and I had to stare at it for ages trying to figure out why it felt like such a record scratch moment to me.

But it's because there is a huge difference between a presumably independent superhero lying to another superhero vs. a sidekick and his sidekick friends secretly joyriding in Batman's car.

Like, Tim lies to authority figures more-or-less constantly, because he doesn't want to be told what to do, but also because - importantly!! - those authority figures reasonably assume they have authority over him that he has to evade. Of course he tries to avoid direct confrontation with the JLA / Batman / Red Tornado / Starfire - they're not his equals and a direct confrontation would end badly!

Whereas Nightwing lying to Batman feels like putting him in a subordinate position in a way that preboot Dick never is. Preboot Dick always tells Batman off to his face, because preboot Dick cares about being equals and refuses to accept being subordinate. He doesn't sneak around behind Bruce's back - he fights back! If he doesn't agree with Bruce's position, he tries to argue Bruce into his own. He'll do stuff without asking Bruce's permission, but he won't conceal it; he'll make a point of making sure Bruce knows what he did and also that he isn't sorry.

2) Preboot Tim's lying / tendency to be fake with people is a consistent personality trait that's also consistently problematized. nu52 Dick's characterization is wildly all over the map.

In preboot, Tim is a liar and obsessive compartmentalizer, which is both a strength (disguises, sneaking around authority) and a problem (loved ones who are hurt by it). He's self-aware about his lies, periodically resolves to lie less, and generally fails at it.

Tim's consistent enough that you can track this character trait in all his relationships: he lies to his dad. He lies to Batman. He lies to his girlfriends. He refuses to tell Babs his real name for ages for basically no reason. He stalks Dick and then tries to run away from him in his origin story and then tries to avoid telling Dick his name. And this evasiveness consistently causes him problems!! Dick's suspicious of him. Ariana's suspicious of him. His dad is suspicious of him. Young Justice and Steph get annoyed with his secret-keeping. Young Justice want him to take off the mask. Steph wants to know his real name. When she finds out and calls him by his real name, he has a panic attack and literally runs away. When upset, he insists he's fine and fake-smiles at people. In Teen Titans, when Tim's busy being fake-cheerful and Conner is startled to see him there right after his dad died, Tim gets upset and angry at Conner and demands that he not tell anyone about Jack. Fine, Conner says, I guess it's another secret. In AC 3, he's lying to Conner again and Conner accuses him of having an insincere "Starfire voice," which is a hilarious callback to Tim being fake-agreeable-yet-secretly-bitchy at Kory when he first meets her. I feel like I get that the lying is a Tim Character Trait which is sometimes endearing and sometimes less so and which all the people who love him are gonna have different feelings about.

By contrast, nu52 Dick spends a ton of time lying but it's hard for me to model his characterization in the same way? He's sometimes fake and ... sometimes that's totally cool and sometimes people punch him! also, does it say something about him? ehhhhh maybe? no? who can say!! At the end of nu52 Nightwing, he doesn't want to go undercover and Bruce beats him up, but then in Grayson he seems totally on board with his mission and willing to actively lie to everyone, and then in Batman and Robin Eternal he carries out a whole secret mission behind nuTim's back because he thinks nuTim is maybe a spy and is scared (?) of confronting him directly, but also he's so sloppy about it that he gets followed and the bad guys find nuTim's parents. Oopsie! He represents The Heart and is super-caring but also somewhat ditzy with a tendency to leap before he looks, and also he's very very very goodlooking and Grayson would really like you to know that.

You can try to make sense of this character's internal motivations and I have read various enjoyable fanfics that do, but in the comics I don't feel like he's clearly characterized.

3) Dick should be a convincing team leader

I know I kind of talked about this earlier but it bothers me SO MUCH that I have to talk about it again dsfdsfds

Preboot Dick is a natural leader: he seizes control of the feuding personalities in the Fab Five; he does the same thing in the NTT; he stands up to Bruce. He can overrule strong personalities like Pantha and Roy; he can hold his ground against the Outsiders. He doesn't back down and he doesn't quit. He's got instinctive authority, and he's a forceful and aggressive enough leader that he can lead teams even when his teammates are feuding or difficult or arguing with each other. Sometimes he's a little too forceful and it backfires on him, but for the most part, it works!

By contrast, nu52 Dick often comes off as kinda... hapless? He's definitely not a force to be reckoned with.

Like, just to take one small example, in post-Crisis's Red Robin 14, Tim and Damian are fighting and Dick wants them to cut it out, so he throws a batarang at Tim's staff and snaps at him, and the fight stops immediately. By contrast, in nu52's Batman and Robin 10, Tim and Damian are arguing and Dick wants them to cut it out, but nuDick is incapable of confronting anyone over anything so he just sighs about it, passive-aggressive and ineffectual.

And "ineffectual" is too often the vibe I get from n52 Dick in general. You put that man with Pantha, and he'll probably be bemused, but he won't be able to make Pantha do anything, and he wouldn't be able to make Danny Chase do anything, and he can't or won't stand up to Bruce so he has to lie the way Tim does, and he would never have a fistfight with Roy over the proper way to lead a team.

And in a lot of ways this makes sense, because n52 Dick isn't a team leader, because they've deleted the Titans. He's just a guy. He's nice, I guess.

But even though he gets all kinds of excellent woobie plotlines that I'd normally enjoy (an evil organization is stalking him personally! his dad is beating him up and forcing him into becoming a spy! he's losing his memory!) his personality is usually so far off from the character I like that I struggle to get invested.

Because the thing is, Dick's leadership instincts aren't incidental to what I like about him. They're all wrapped up in his outsized sense of personal responsibility and instinctive belief that if anything is going wrong anywhere near him then it is his obligation to handle it and if anything goes wrong then it's his fault if he was involved and also his fault if he wasn't involved and actually if you have ever gotten within five feet of him and unrelatedly something bad happened to you then it's probably his fault and he FAILED. This belief gives Dick a lot of control issues and makes him bitchy sometimes and is not great for his mental health, but it's also very endearing and an outgrowth of how much Dick cares!

Anyway, re:bitchiness, I have similar feelings about various choices in Batgirls and in Tim Drake: Robin and in current Nightwing; like, I don't think any of these stories are bad ipso facto, I don't begrudge anyone who likes them, and I certainly enjoy fluffy fanfic sometimes - I don't always want the same things in transformative fandom that I want in canon.

But in comics, I often want the characters to have a bit of edge, to be cranky and difficult and just... y'know, clearly the kind of people who would choose to be vigilantes. I want them to care enough to be bitchy about it. And I often feel like I'm missing that, post-2011.

[dibs4ever]

High school aged Dick and Barbara hanging out after school at the Manor

Barbara:you've been off all week, what’s bothering you?

Dick: nothing

Barbara: spill

Dick: *sigh* Abby-

Barbara: your girlfriend of 3 months?

Dick: Yeah…..she’s been on my case about spending too much time….with you.

Barbara: Oh…I- did I over step a boundry at some point? I'm sorry if I did anything to make her uncomfortable

Dick: no you didn't- she just. She thinks you're pretty and didn't like that I was such good friends with you. Doesn't like that I text and call you. Doesn't like that I'm friends and was saying if I wanted to continue dating her I couldn't hang out with you

Barbara: Oh

Dick: So I broke up with her

Barbara: Dick—-why? Because of me, I ruined your relationship

Dick: No! Of course not!! Babs you are the answer! Given the choice between you and anyone the answer will always be you. I can live without Abby in my life I can't live without you in my life

Barbara: Awe Dick…..wait you didn't tell Abby that did you?

Dick: of course not! I told her that I couldn't date someone who didn't trust me

[not-a-matopoeia]

HEAD CANNON HILLS I PERSONALLY CHOOSE TO DIE ON:

Fight me (lol)

Bruce Wayne

Gray Hairs are mostly in and around his temples and beard- also he won’t dye it

Asexual but not sex repulsed (it just feels right)

Definitely experienced with makeup, sure to cover bruises and stuff but also he definitely had a phase where he wore eyeliner cause why not

Autistic

Dick Grayson

Crooked nose

Speaks some Roma still but has forgotten most of it, which makes him upset

People deffo thought he was gay all through school, and they weren’t wrong…or right (he’s some form of queer)

Gymnastics teacher as a side job

ADHD

Oldest Daughter SyndromeTM

Jason Todd

I think that Jason runs a book club with a bunch of middle aged women, and they talk about classic lit

Theater Kid (gay)

Good with kids, reluctantly

Has freckles

Hair is caused by Marie Antoinette syndrome

Struggled with body dysmorphia after being revived

Keeps all his receipts (they’re in a box in the kitchen) and is stingy with money

Tim Drake

Wears a Medical Identification bracelet for the spleen thing (it’s recommended guys I looked it up cause I’m normal)

Has acne

Chased Batman and Robin around with that damn camera (I fucking love this)

Has anxiety

Bisexual (not a HC but I thought I’d mention it)

Would eat the coffee grounds

Listens to video game osts

(Bring the skateboard back)

Damian

Strong nose

Just very strong features generally

Giggles, or full on cackles but there’s no In between

I think it’s be cute if he became an art therapist or a vet

Autistic

Cass

Cuts her own bangs, they look horrible<3

Lesbian

Tired to dye her hair once (with Steph and Babs)never again

Steph

Grew up in crime ally (idk where she lived so I choose to believe this- this could also be the truth, again I cannot remember rn)

Freckles

Butterfly Clips

Bisexual

Curly hair

Alfred

Had chased multiple people off of Wayne Manors premises with his shotgun ‘

Got second place in a chili cook off one time and still hasn’t recovered

Extra:

Dick and Jason are big into Taylor Swift, Jason because I think he’d like ballads/the lyrics in songs and Dick because he’s Dick

Selina Kyle actually likes the Robins, and her and Steph got along well

Jason and Steph have really thick Gotham accents, which I like to think is like a Jersey accent, Jason’s shows up more when he’s upset in any capacity, Steph’s is always there and was never trained out of her

Dick has this weird accent where it’s very clearly not anything American, but it’s not not American, and it’s because he moved so much and was around people woth so many different accents that his voice never settled on one

Damian talks to himself in Arabic- Jason knows a bit of it

Cass is a messy eater (this isn’t cannon is it?)

I think it’s be funny to imagine Tim, Cass and Steph going to High School together

Steph was that one girl in the Cookie Monster pjs in high school, and Tim was like this weird goth/skater kid

[sliipppy]

Because I am insane and sleep deprived, here is my attempt to make sense of the batfamily ages and what I believe they are currently at, with full explanations. Fair warning, although I have done like, legit research and have reasonings, some of these still fit into headcanons.

Bruce - 45

Dick - 28

Babs - 30

Jason - 23

Tim - 21

Steph - 22

Cass - 23

Damian - 14

Duke - 17

Bruce is the oldest, obviously. However, when he first adopts Dick he is still young himself. Hence why along with their father-son relationship, they sorta have a brotherly relationship. (Specfically in classic comics, Bruce would often refer to him as a brother. ) I like how it complicates their relationship and how it shows he wasn't really ready to nessicarily handle a child. I like to hc that he got adopted at 8, which would make Bruce 25 when he adopted him.

It was difficult to settle on this age because the age in which Dick became Robin has been changed so many times. Originally, he was 7. New Teen Titans says he was 8. Other comics say he was 10, 12, and even 15. I feel like most people say 8, and for the sake of my own agenda, I'm saying 8, and you can not stop me.

I think 28 is a good age for Dick. Babs similarly should be around his age as they grew up together (at least in newer canon since she used to be quite a bit older.), but she's always been portrayed as older even when around her age, and to kinda account for the weirdness surrounding her age I put her as 30. She becomes Batgirl at 18, and likely becomes Oracle when she's in her 20s, probably around 23.

Batman tells Cass multiple times in Batgirl 2000 that she and Jason were the same age, so that makes it easier to rule the two together. Addiontally, Cass, Steph, and Tim are all around the same age range, Cass being the oldest, so that makes things easier too. Cass starts operating as Batgirl at 18 which would make Tim around 16 when she takes the cowl. This works since Tim became Robin at around 13 and he had been Robin for a good amount of time before Cass became Batgirl. I think it's a litttle longer than I'd like. But whatever. I was considering ignoring canon and saying he becomes Robin at 14, because I think 2 years as Robin before Cass rather than 3 is more fitting but whatever. It does fit since Tim was introduced way earlier than Cass, however real time doesn't really affect these ages. Anyways, big sister Cass supremacy I think people forget she's one of the oldest. I think she might have been de-aged to be around Tim's age but FUCK that she was originally Jason's age and this is my headcanon and I like to thing N52 didn't fuck everything up in my happy Tumblr space.

We know Steph is 1 year older than Tim because she's a freshman in college during Batgirl 2009, and he's a high-school dropout in Red Robin 2009 as he searches for Bruce. Stephanie becomes Spoiler at 15, and Robin at 16. She comes back when she's around 17-18. This lands our 2000s trio with ages at 23(Cass), 22(Steph), and 21(Tim).

Jason is a mess. At least I thought he would be, but it actually turned out kinda perfect. We know Jason and Cass are the same age, so he's at 23 with her. He becomes Robin at 12, and dies at 15. He comes back as Red Hood at 18 and was dead for around 3 years. Jason Todd is 18 when he comes back to life because right before War Games, Bruce takes Cass to Jason's grave, on his 18th birthday!!! and of course the event that acts as a sort of aftermath to War Games is Under the Red Hood so Jason is 18 when he first becomes Red Hood. Cass is still a fairly new character when UTRH happens, so i think her being 18-19 when he comes back fits well. Tim being around 16 kinda fits nice too as hes around the same age as Jason when he died. I think Steph being so close in age also helps since so many parallels are drawn between the two.

Detective Comics #790

Duke is still a teenager, and he is regarded to be one of the youngest bats, but still quite a bit older than Damian. In We are Robin, Duke is 16, as shown in the who are the robins bonus art. He is still a newer character and hasn't been Signal for long. I assume that by the time Batman and the Signal rolls around, he's 17 and is still currently 17.

We are Robin #4

I'm pretty sure Damian was 14 in Robin (2021) but I could be wrong it's been a while since I've read it and I never finished it so idk if he ever aged since then. He became Robin at 10, so in those 4 years, he's obviously grown and matured a lot, but I mean, who doesn't those are formative years. I was gonna bump him up to 15. However, this doesn't work. He is supposed to be 10 while Tim is 17. (Babs says he's ten during Batgirl 2009, and we established Tim is 17 during this.) To keep it consistent with the others, I'm keeping Damian at 14.

Batgirl 2009 #17

Feel free to correct anything I said here if it's incorrect. I am not perfect nor all-knowing. Also I'm horrible with math and numbers so I probably fucked something up here so feel free to make fun of me for that. Or you can make fun of the issues I have below.

Issues :

Dick can't be Robin at 8 if I stick with these ages because that would mean at the time Tim is 1 which means he wouldn't even be able to remember the show which means he would never be Robin.

I would've liked Bruce to be a little younger when first taking Dick in, but also I think Bruce is at his best when he's a middle aged man and I didn't want him to be below 45 because I wanted him to be on his late 40's.

It's hard to characterized Duke after We Are Robin because he's supposed to he a teenager, however he was 16 in We Are Robin and it feels like he should have been Signal for a bit longer than that. This isn't as big of a deal, because I still think it's believable for him to have only been signal for about a year, and it's mainly just DC inconsistency, but it still bugs me.

Damian's entire age is sorta messy and there's definitely issues with it lol.

I think Cass' age is around the same as Tim's post 52 to fit with him since their the same generation. But i chose to ignore that, and you can't stop me I choose what canon I want.

ヽ(o´3`o)ﾉ

Anyways, if you've read all of this, I fear you might be a little crazy. However, thank you!!!!!! Feel free to like leave your own opinion/headcanons. I LOVE hearing them. Thank you! Bye!

[missbluesunflowersstuff]

Some Tim Drake headcanon

I did some headcanon based in canon stuff and also random things, this is more around the batkids and Tim. Please respect

Tim likes to think of himself as a street smarth, but he's not. He is academically smarth, but not a street smart kid (he grew up in a mansion with several servants, even though he is hella neglected, he wouldn't know how to survive on the streets of Gotham in the same way that Jason, Duke, Dick)

(ok I noticed some confusion with my worlds here, then Tim Drake is a child from Gotham, his way of surviving there is a little different from his brother but he still would figure it out. That's what I was saying, thanks for the comprehension)

whenever Tim needs someone to talk to he looks for Dick, he knows that Dick will listening to him and his older brother will also give him useful advice/ help him solve the problem

He's afraid of having redhead fever from his older brothers (Dick being friend with Babs, Wally, Kor'i and Roy and Jason being friend with Artemis, Roy and Kor'i), not in a romantic way or anything, he just doesn't know how to explain how Dick and Jason attract so many redheaded friends

He fears info dumping someone when he talks; Duke once commented that he liked the smell of rain when it rained on very hot days, and Tim began to explain that this was due to a fungus. Duke just listened silently and then shy smiled. And only later did Tim think he had ruined the peaceful moment, as he noticed how Duke and Cass lay quietly enjoying the rain...

His relationship with Steph isn't that complicated, they dated in the past, but nowadays they both try their best to remain good friends

He tries to plan several cute dates with Bernard, but he always ends up overthinking so he chooses the simplest route, cinema and burgers (Kon and Bart helped him choose this as perfect date)

When Tim is having problems with Bruce, he always turns to Dick, knowing that his older brother will help him with whatever he needs

Tim regrets the beginning between him and Damian, not just the assassination attempts, but Tim didn't try to trust Damian and always accused Damian's people of being bad and had an offense towards Damian's origins (both were wrong, Damian in his trauma stuff and I dislike how "his people are evil" that DC wrote at that time)

He is secretly afraid of someone discovering the bomb in Nanda Parbat, yes there were murderers there, but it was a city that also had civilians there and as a hero he shouldn't put the lives of innocent people at risk (why does DC keep writing him like that???)

There are actually several theories in Gotham about why he doesn't age, some say he's a vampire and others say he bathes in the blood of innocents, no one knows who start these theories (Dick blames Jason, Jason blames Damian, Damian blames Steph, Steph blames Bernard and Kon and Bart blames each others)

his worst nightmare is being the only survivor of his entire family (again)

Loneliness can hurt him in ways no villain could, being alone can drive him crazy. Therefore, unlike his brothers (who can work alone), Tim tries his best to work in teams

Because Bruce and Tim were born into a rich house, they are out of touch with normal stuff sometimes

he really enjoys listening to Bernard's theories and sometimes encourages him with something stupid

Tim likes to think that If his mother were alive she would like Bernard

Tim is the only one in the family who shows concern about Damian's addiction to adopting animals, afraid that it will turn into something similar to Bruce

Tim learned a lot about motorcycles because he thought it would be a good topic to talk about with Jason

Tim has and listens to his emo playlist

Even when he hates loneliness, he can disappear for a while, either because he wants someone to look for him or because of something Bruce said. When this happend, he usually comes back when he is tired of being alone or someone go look for him (man this is pretty sad...let me write something...)

There was a time when he disappeared for a while, he hid in a safehouse outside the country and when he started to wonder if anyone would miss him the door was shut down, Damian, Jon and a girl in a white mask that he didn't recognize entered

"tt if I knew you weren't in danger I would have feared more" "what?" "come on, get on the Goliath, we have to go home" "did something happen?" "Batcow. Cows have a circle of friends and they can get depressed if a friend disappears

Ok Tim knew about cows due to Kon living on a farm, but he was extremely confused about being kidnapped rescued by Damian, Jon and Nobody just because the kids were worried about the Batcow mental health

Coming back was strange, since Bruce didn't even notice he was gone, but soon he felt Alfred the cat rubbing against him, Titus licking his hand and the cow mooing at him, Tim was a little happier to come back (I'm not good to write fluffly you guys are struck with this)

Nowadays Tim is very smug because he was the first of the brothers to fly in Goliath

Some batkid headcanon: Damian || Duke || Cassandra || Stephanie || Tim || Jason || Dick

[celaenaeiln]

Batgirl/Nightwing Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson is literally the worst. Even worse that there are people who ship both Oracle/Nightwing and Batgirl/Nightwing when like their personalities are completely different, it feels like people are willing to ship them together just because they are Dick and Babs.

Honestly I feel like it’s unfair to talk about Batgirl/Nightwing because I feel like the majority of people agree that Oracle/Nightwing is better but I wouldn’t say I like it much either. There are some good panels between them but honestly it always felt more friendly like the thing that always irked me about them is that there will we or won’t we is so tiring, especially when you have so many other couples who have valid reasons for being star crossed, their arguments and fears always felt juvenile and annoying and then when they are together there is something that just feels off in their dialogue or tone of the ways things are written for both characters. There’s also this thing that shippers do where they make both characters finding a home in each other or being each others safety net which doesn’t really feel true to their characters because their are so many other characters that played a bigger role in Dick’s and Barbara’s life compared to what role Dick and Barbara had in each others lives (this is why I also hate the retcon that they were childhood friends because they weren’t! They didn’t grow up together!) And I don’t care about the age gap, like people can meet as adults and develop feelings for each other but like it makes no sense to me what they would see in each other that makes those feelings go from friendship to romance other then it just does. Like all the skills they can do other characters can also do and a lot of their character traits that they have other characters have as well, like what makes these two characters look at each other and desire the other. That chemistry and desire has always been lacking for me when they are together. Like it feels like just two Barbie dolls being smashed together with writing telling me I have to like them together meanwhile I’m just scratching my head.

You talked a lot about Dick but honestly there are many things that he has done that makes me wonder why Babs would want him.

It’s sad because Dick and Babs are such cool characters but when they are together I’m so bored!!!! Barbara deserves an interesting love interest and a love interest that can be just as complicated and messy as she!

"it feels like just two Barbie dolls being smashed together with writing telling me I have to like them together meanwhile I’m just scratching my head."

OMG LITERALLY I'VE SAID THE EXACT THING ALMOST WORD FOR WORD IN ANOTHER POST.

Honestly everything you said is so true.

There's physically no possible way to like both Oracle and Batgirl and still respect the Dick and Barbara. I'm not a big fan of Oracle/Nightwing either but I like them much, much more than Batgirl/Nighwing.

The safety net thing is the biggest crutch for Dickbabs. DC is trying to push them as if they'll always catch each other but that's only true in the physical sense like literally grab the other out of mid-air. Emotionally the wishy-washy behavior is tiring and emotionally draining and neither of them come out of it happy.

It makes me mad when DC has Dick claim that Barbara is Dick's best friend

Wally's stewing moodily on Dick's couch when he heard. He'll probably be like "I made you best man at my wedding and you calling her your best friend?"

The Flash (1987) Issue #142

Dick'll be like "W

Wally...I swear-"

Wally: "I made you best man! TWICE!!"

Not to mention, Dick and Barbara before the retcon didn't even know each other's superhero identities! I think it might've been the Legends of the Dark Knight comic but Dick's hanging out with his friends when he runs away to the bathroom with Congresswoman Gordon enters the place because "Robin and Dick Grayson can't be seen in the same place!" Barbara also says something in her point of view when they're fighting crime.

EXACTLY!! They do their best work separately. But together their personalities are an awful combo and it really makes me mad.

Yeah, I know I'm biased towards Dick but the reason I took Dick's side is because while Dick may have done things to Barbara, the majority of the transgressions are against him in their relationship. I don't know DC writers constantly nerf him when they're together or why they write Barbara so awful in a relationship when she's fine otherwise. The only thing I know that was wrong from her perspective is during that Devin Grayson scene. But that's just one of the worst writings of his character that I've seen (post).

Barbara deserves someone like Jason Bard

Batgirl (2016) Issue #42

Someone she can save and whose skillset won't be overlapping. Someone she can be strong with and will let themselves be commanded without it weakening them. Someone she doesn't have to feel like she's fighting the world over to call hers.

Jason Bard was perfect, sweet, good-looking, and smart for her. He even described him as complicated as a trait she loves about him.

Barbara definitely needs someone who isn't Dick and Dick needs someone who isn't Barbara so that way both their skills and personalities can shine.

[dailycass-cain]

Birds of Prey #7-8 is a neat little two-issue arc that had a lot of cute Cass stuff sprinkled throughout. So here are my thoughts (at last for #7) on the two issues.

I gotta say one surprising improvement is well, everyone gets more moments sprinkled throughout the two issues.

Then say one per issue. That and we get the members who came back with this issue bonding/training Sin/Megaera. That's where Cass comes in...

I love that the introduction for Cass is side by side with Barda (since their growing bond has been a major fun selling point of the series).

This is the (outside of Batman: Wayne Family Adventures and Batgirls) that Cass does normal things like going laser questing.

It's obvious everyone is having fun here, but also trying to gauge Sin's skills both as a combatant and in her new powerset.

I do like that writer Kelly Thompson brings back Cass being a fighting teacher.

It's something Batgirls gave us (though not the first with Cass teaching Steph), but then the little Nightwing backup again gave us it with Cass training with Dick.

I always love this aspect of Cass helping her comrades get better and her being a teacher. Just makes that moment in Scott Snyder/James Tynion IV JL run all the sweeter. That folks SHOULD come to Cass for help in their fighting prowess.

If there's any nitpick, I kind of want for Thompson to bring up Sin being raised to be the next Shiva. Like, technically it's an aspect somewhat overlooked in the run so far surprisingly (save in Cass joining the cause).

But I get "the why" Thompson hasn't dug into it yet. This is a two-issue arc, and it's gotta introduce our newest members, Vixen and Babs. And it's just that a "nit-pick".

I just hope Thompson is given the chance to eventually dig into that aspect.

Though in a way, she already is as all three ladies were born to be weapons but chose a different path. The fact they're just having fun but also being mentors to Sin is neat.

But yeah the other section for Cass this issue leads us to the moment me and others have been using and gushing over the last month. Mari gives Cass choices on wearing lingerie (if you're very very quiet you can hear Stephanie Brown still crying not appearing here and instead in another book.).

This moment really feels like Thompson course-correcting an aged badly moment from Batgirl Vol. 1 #39 with Babs accidentally making Cass wear a one-piece and she feels bad.

I think the fault isn't on Horrocks more per se the "product of the time" and WHO was slowly coming into power at DC around then.

Plus the actual end message in Batgirl #41 works quite well. With Cass figuring things out thanks to Kon (and aliens).

The moment over in BoP is just a page but artist Javier Pina captures SOOO much in the exchanges between Mari and Cass.

Just between the glances, you can tell Mari fully understands more and is more open to figuring out the common ground link that'll work for Cass.

I mean just look at these reactions. They say so many things and are just perfect moments for Cass (which is why I will be using these like crazy).

And of course, the piece Mari picks for Cass is just absolutely stunning and yeah perfectly works for the character.

I would love a creator's commentary on this how they chose each look for each Bird.

So yeah #7 was a great continuation of the plot with #8 wrapping the arc up, but setting it up for the next big thing for our Birds.

#8 began with bringing back someone I thought we'd never see with Batgirls ending last June, Detective Brooks.

I mean he isn't fully name-dropped but those who read Batgirls are in "the know" and it's nice continuity by Thompson in Brooks continuing his partnership with Oracle.

Even though I didn't notice him really doing much after the intro.

So let's get to the crux of this issue with it pertains to Cass.

Cass somehow flying around throwing batarangs (I'm not even gonna wanna answer where she was storing those) and fighting in high heels (just again doing a better job of it than in Batgirl #45).

I know everyone's eyes were on Barda in the fight, but you know where mine were. So yeah it was an interesting detail of Cass doing that, along with being the only Bird keeping her mask on.

Again this is a nice little touch because it shows Cass maturing and actually keeping a dual identity. Something that was quite a problem for her in Batgirl Vol. 1 at times (and some can say Tynion's Tec Knights run too).

If there's any negative (but I digress again minor nitpick) is how quickly Babs is ensnared by the mysterious force trying to end her (but #7 did showcase how easily Mari was swayed).

Anyhoot this was a fun little two-part arc and I'm really curious where the comic goes from here. Each Bird got a good moment and really the only downside was my minor nitpicks.

Birds of Prey continues to be a REAL fun series and I really do enjoy Thompson's Cass. I'm really curious given what we'll get with the character in the upcoming issues given the premise seems to be in the mind of each Bird.

[weekend-conspiracy-theorist]

ngl though, my personal ideal reverse robins scenario (circa bruce in the timestream era) is batman cass with robin dick--if you want to mirror the initial "bruce isn't thrilled about the new child in his house" dynamic on damian's arrival, cass is the one at the circus that night. but she doesn't watch the graysons die--she watches their son watch them die, sees and feels his grief as viscerally as her own, and swoops into action as black bat... and brings a child home with her. she's always been his batman 🥺 ANYWAY the two of them together as a batman-robin duo is insane. two extreme prodigies with preternatural control and understanding of their bodies, their team up moves would be bonkers. I think dick would idolize cass to extremes but struggle with how she just shuts him down regarding his desire for vengeance on his parents' killer rather than really talking him through it.

damian is and stays nightwing when bruce dies, obviously, although while not quite "battle of the cowl" levels he and cass definitely have a knock down drag out verbal argument about it. so he spends a lot of this era sulking in blüdhaven and working with the titans, who include jon kent, yara flor, and irey west. (how is irey here when her dad is a little baby like dick? idk, speedster timestream shenanigans. bart's furious at her for stealing his future time traveller schtick. or maybe the speedster for damian's era could be avery or ace instead? actually yeah, reversing age on the two wallaces makes much more sense lol. anyway.)

duke upgrades from robin to signal and goes haring off across the globe to track bruce through the timestream (possibly taking spoiler!jason with him?). he (and the rest of the robin gang) had taken up the cause in the wake of steph's (and tim's, more on that later) death, when bruce is spiralling and gotham still needs a light ✨ they're so determined that even getting on batman's badside can't stop them, and finally they wear him down. duke (who knows bruce wayne is batman) is the one bruce thinks of as robin, but riko izzy and the gang are still around. (then jason shows up in purple, and he's inducted into the gang for months before bruce finds out there's ANOTHER teenage vigilante running around.)

tim is an oracle equivalent, but this is the one identity I would actually change the name of; I don't know what I would make it, but oracle specifically is deeply connected to babs for me and I'd like to leave it open for her to take up later. (robin IS deeply connected to dick but it's also been given connections to some of the other robins over the years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to keep it in an au like this, especially for how iconic it is. dick of course still gets a really heartbreaking scene connecting this new hero name back to his mother's nickname for him.) (batgirl is open at this point in and time and babs does hit the streets first on her own and then taken under cass's wing while bruce is dead, obviously.) tim doesn't have babs's talent and ability for being a living information nexus but he does have the tech knowledge and the tactical knowledge to still take on a ~big brother~ style hero persona and run a team a la the birds of prey (I would also not actually make them BoP; I would pull the rest of core four young justice + others he pulls in for various jobs); tim's number one advantage as a hero has always been network building and so I would play off that as much as his tech skill. a la steph's faked death in canon, tim's civilian persona is fake dead in this au, and I lean towards making tim an amputee rather than parapalegic, to facilitate interesting conversations between him and babs down the line after she's paralyzed, about what it means to be a disabled hero and how their situations compare and differ.

when steph gets resurrected and eventually takes on the red hood persona, she doesn't know tim is actually alive, because that's juicy. and extra fodder in her vendetta against bruce. tim starts working with the red hood before either him or steph knows who the other is. yes, they have a weird agressive flirtation going on. yes, it only gets worse once they find out. (yes, tim blows up at bruce when he finds out bruce has known/suspected the red hood's identity for a while.) yes, duke, jason, and dick fucking hate working with the two of them because it's super embarassing to listen to their older brother flirt with a mass murderer.

oh, and I'd make charlie gage-radcliffe the bette kane bat-girl equivalent who's like, relatively removed from all of this but also knew and worked with damian when he was a baby robin and has all of the good dirt and they lowkey hate each other but in a, like, frenemies way

[jellyfishjuliet]

I’m not a BruceBabs shipper but people who get so scandalized by it or any other non-DickBabs ships are so annoying. And it’s usually Oracle fans who think the only people only like something else is because they are anti Babs. Babs used to be married to Bruce in the Superman universe and has even dated Clark Kent. They were literally only 3-4 years apart compared to Barbara and Dick who are 6-7 years apart and Barbara was literally older than Talia al Ghul at one point. DickBabs always is held to like this moral standard but honestly to me it’s like the writers settled for the the most boring and safest option which sucks because I wish that the one canonically disabled wheelchair user that DC has would have had a grand romance but yet… like it grates on me that when fans talk about reasons to like DickBabs it is because it’s a disabled woman in a relationship but like she would be a disabled woman in a relationship in whatever relationship she was in because she is a disabled woman. I don’t care for DickBabs and I honestly don’t even care for the age gap like let Babs have a younger guy and have fun, but the ship itself is just boring to me. Anybody else but that please.

i think the biggest mistake was to downgrade babs down to a dick’s contemporary when there were a hundred other ways (albeit none of them even slightly appropriate 😂) to get to the dickbabs agenda, but like, none of it was leveraged…. it’s always irked me, personally, bc there was nothing cookie cutter about their romance to begin with, and there were multiple layers of complexity that didn’t directly involve bruce getting between them, but i feel like in the current era, most of what made them dickbabs even remotely complex was straight up eliminated and or sterilized…. For what? for dick and barbara to be each other’s halal soulmate? forgive my language, but their relarionship’s entire conception was haram 😂 erasing and downplaying what made their relationship ‘theirs’ does nothing but diminish their personal histories and the fact that they each literally brought out the worst in each other at times.

and it’s not to say either are or were perfect. they are not. they are so fucked up i have to actually laugh bc they are both my mentally ill babus and i truly wish dc creative slt could SEE that they can be their best weirdo selves WITHOUT falling into the trap of reducing them to the kind of couple conservatives love to tout as “true love” when we know the only true love in dc comics is kon el and bart allen. also, break dickbabs up 5ever!

and ur absolutely right that babs deserves her fun! personally, i think brubabs is the answer to freeing selina kyle from all the straight woman allegations (i would like her to peacefully fuck other men abd women for at least ten years without hearing a single word about broose) and barbara from the dick-is-your-soulmate garbage. reality is that dickbabs has been as bust as dickkory for the last nine million years (as much as i love dickkory muah muah). one of my biggest critiques of dc comics writing is that motherfuckers cant commit to a character development point for their life. we were over both dickkory and dickbabs in 2010. not bc people didn’t enjoy their ships, but bc the writing staffs went out of their way to slander every single character. i recently saw a post that dickkory only looks good in elseworlds stories cuz the main comic runs fucked his ass UP. and i agree! the same should be applied to dickbabs, bc they lost their appeal eons ago as well. they want nightwing’s ass ate so damn bad, they need to get him a new girlfriend. a boyfriend, even! but leave babs and kory out of it 😭😭😭

Inshallah, hopefully dc creative SLT will understand the great fuckup they’re committing these days. if i cant get brubabs, i would like to see barbara go on a lil date with one of the many beautiful men and women in gotham. if she slept with selina, i would support it.

[geekthefreakout]

What are some of your favorite characters that are considered part of the Batfamily?

I agree with everything you have said. Jason and Babs have an interesting chemistry that I’ll admit they have when they are written together. Batman Eternal really made them an official romantic thing in canon and the writers then weren’t trying to even do it, they just happened to write them together and realized they actually really enjoyed writing their interactions and saw the possibilities there and left it open for other writers to explore if they choose to.

If I remember correctly in the Arkham verse wasn’t Babs only married to Tim. There really wasn’t anything romantic between them but in title only, right? That’s what made it really forced and random.

With Bruce yeah it was icky but Timm’s love of that ship probably came from how older comics did try to make Bruce and Barbara a thing but it not catching on. Barbara was originally created to be a love interest for Bruce but audience didn’t care much for it and then it just changed to a partnership. But back then Bruce and Clark were closer in age with Babs than her and the first Robin.

My top Batfam members are Cass, Tim and Jason, I connect with them the most (that's my daddy issues showing smh). Dick and Dami aren't as personal to me, but I still love them. Steph is another gem, but I feel like she lost some of her heart post-Flashpoint and is still recovering from it. Then of course there's Alfred who I miss dearly. But I love everyone.

I am not really attached to Luke, Helena, or Bette, but I don't dislike them. I just don't miss them when they aren't around.

For Jason and Babs, I agree. There's something interesting there. A crush on his part, developing and conflicting feelings on her part. The way that they might both acknowledge the feelings on some level but one of them always pulls away because they know it's not a good idea... With the right writer, it's quite compelling... Though I do prefer Babs with Dick. I'm a dirty JayRoy shipper because I read RHATO very early on in my comic booking career.

Arkham verse made some weird choices with times, ages, and relationships. And Bruce Timm... Has a Thing. But all of these verses are fun in their ways and have great stuff going for them even with the weirdness.

[zorilleerrant]

people always say Dick is an eldest daughter, but like... he's just an adult child. the relationship adult children have with their younger (especially much younger siblings) just tends to be like that if they have high contact. that's not the same thing as expecting a child to raise the other children while the parents swan off.

Harper's definitely an eldest daughter. Babs you can argue is an eldest daughter, altho that depends on the age difference between her and JJ. you could convince me Cass was an eldest daughter, and she was in charge of her training group, just because that makes more sense logistically than what canon shows, but it seems more likely some of the older cadets would take care of her. Steph's got the right personality for it but you'd have to give her neighborhood children to be responsible for, so it would involve constructing a lot of side characters. Duke has a similar disposition, but the responsibility would presumably go to girls in his neighborhood instead. Jason, with less community support, could definitely be in that situation. Mara's story also suggests she's an eldest daughter, not only to Damian but to the other children in the League.

Dickie's just an adult. with responsibilities he might not choose to have, sure - altho let's not forget how fast he tried to adopt those same kids, let's not kid ourselves - but he's just acting as an adult member of a large family, not a parentized child.

[zahri-melitor]

Okay, here’s one for you: given the emergence of ‘special’ weapons for individual Bat characters really largely started in 1991 with Tim’s bo staff, does every character need to have an iconic weapon?

What is Babs’? You and I would say escrima sticks, and she’s arguably had them longer than Dick (she’s USED them on page longer than he has), but there are plenty of people who would see that as tedious copying of Dick.

What is Cass’? Is the lack of any weapon definable as an iconic special weapon? But she she still uses a grapple (if not batarangs much at all even).

Kate Kane? Bette? Is Kate’s a gun? But she doesn’t always carry one and she very rarely USES it if even if she’s carrying one.

Jean-Paul? Is the flaming sword specifically different enough to Damian’s sword, especially given the crossover in swords where Dick gave a LOA special sword to Michael Lane even though Ra’s gave it to Dick in particular to be a pain while Damian first had his sword?

Steph and Barbara are the only ones who’ve really used those trick batarangs and while I don’t particularly like the gooperang (it’s a bit too Arrow for me) it’s got resonance with some of the Bronze Age makeup weapons Barbara had. (Ugh)

Heck, what is BRUCE’S iconic weapon? Everything in his toolbelt is generalised and used by everyone else. He created the set of what a Bat weapon is but that’s only noticeably exclusive for him if he’s in a team book with multiple families.

While I don’t disagree that iconic weapons exist, I think there’s a fair argument most of them are shared between a few people, not exclusives.

One one hand like yes I do think for iconography purposes Steph should have her own weapon (I know the three sectioned staff is the common answer) but on the other hand I think it does fit her character more to not have a particular weapon, or at least one that doesn't require such specific training, but on the other other hand is that in-narrative justification for the real-world mistreatment of Stephanie's character, but on the other other other hand...

[impyssadobsessions]

Raising Phantom chpt 2

AO3 Link DP x DC 

Danny angrily colored a page that Jazz had set in front of him as he watched a video from his phone. Stupid page. It wasn't the page's fault, but Danny had to blame something. He still felt frustrated from the mugging. He was tired of hiding, and tired of playing defenseless kid. He wanted to scare the pants off them disgusting jerks. Well, he could always haunt them later. But Jazz could tell when he didn't get enough sleep. Call him cranky. He has a right to be! Danny stared down and sighed, the page just had ugly streaks of red in it. Looked like it was colored by a smaller child than he already was. He grabbed the paged and crumpled it up into a ball, getting what last bit of frustration he could out on the paper before tossing it in the trash. Even making it in the bin first try didn't help much.

“Feel any better?” Jazz asked as she sorted the returned books so they were easier to put back on the shelves. “No.” Danny grumbled, sinking in his seat. Danny glanced around and then spoke in a whisper. “Should have let me at them.” “You know why that was a bad idea, Danny. Besides, if I did, Red Hood would have seen you.” Jazz whispered back, never stopping what she was doing. Danny just huffed more as he sunk deeper in the chair. He hated being little. He should be in college, with his friends! …As if he even would have been able to. Danny glanced down, watching his fingers as he rolled the red crayon. He was barely passing any of his classes before being aged down. He was constantly asleep in class and most of the time he was absent chasing ghosts. And then, topic of major. He had no idea what he wanted to do with his life anymore. He never thought about it much after the accident. The one that turned him into a ghost. Half-ghost. He was still alive. “Jazz? Can I have another page?” “Sure thing, Danny.” Jazz handed him another page from the stack on the check out counter. The color page was just a dinosaur with a book, nothing interesting, but Jazz had said coloring is a relaxing activity. Which he was hoping was true. Mostly, Danny just needed to do something with his hands before he started accidentally using his powers... or go to the bathroom to fly out to mess with those muggers. That was very tempting option. He wonder how long it would take him before Jazz finds out.

The door to the library chimed open. “Hey Babs, sorry I was running late. Jaybird needed my help. So how things with the new girl going-?” A man walked in with a t-shirt and sweats, leaning over the counter looking at Jazz's back. His hair loose, but brushed out of his face, eyes blue and hair black. “Well, considering you already mistaken  me for a season veteran in the library, I would say good.” Jazz turned around to smile at the man, taking off her reading glasses. The man did a double take, eyes widening, before running his hand through his hair embarrassed. “Man, and I get onto Timmy for not sleeping enough. Please don't tell Babs.” “No need, I saw the whole thing.” Barbara smiled, as she rolled her wheel chair next to the rolling chair Jazz was in. They look very similar, one might think Jazz was her younger sister. Didn't help they dressed about the same too. Jazz's face just was more round and her body was skinnier framed.

“Ah... No hope this isn't going on family chat.. huh?” the man jolted and then lowered his shoulders as if the answer was already given to him. “Are you guys related?” Jazz asked tilting her head, glancing between them. “Oh no, we've known each other since we were young.” Barbara clarified. “Making it sound like we're old.” The man grinned. “I'm Dick Grayson, Babs didn't tell me she hired her doppelganger. “ Dick held out his hand to shake Jazz's, giving a playful wink. Jazz reached out and shook it. “Maybe that's because she's off limits.” Babs smiled, as she leaned forward on the desk that sat behind the counter. “Is this because she has red-hair?” Dick taking back his hand, frowning at Babs. Babs leaned into Jazz with a nudge and a wink, “Don't fall for his charm. He doesn't know he's doing it.” Dick sighed, as he leaned on the counter, propping his head up with his hand. Jazz chuckled. “I'm not the one that needs to be charmed, if anyone has a chance with me.” Jazz smiled then looked back at Danny, who had been watching them this whole time from the little area he sat at. “This is my son, Danny.” Danny glared at Dick, bringing the point in. “And I'm Jasmine Nightingale, please call me Jazz.” Jazz smiled back at Dick. Dick blinked for a moment, looking between Jazz and Danny. They knew it was jarring with how young Jazz looked, but it was plausible. Dick then smiled at them, whatever thought he had, he kept it to himself. “Its nice to meet you, Jazz. Really, I am sorry for the mistake, but you two could pass off as sisters.” Dick then glanced back at Danny, giving him a brighter grin. “Its nice to meet you too Danny.” Danny glanced at Jazz, who was looking at Danny expectantly. Danny frowned, then idea popped as he grinned, “MOM says I'm not allowed to say curse words. Mr. Bleep.” Dick put a hand over his mouth as a snort come out. Babs turned her head. “Danny.” Jazz whispered harshly. Danny put on his best innocent face, which looked heavily mischievous instead. “Oh, so I can say it?” Jazz narrowed her eyes at him, trying to calculate how she should phrase it. “Only when you're referring to Mr. Grayson, or calling him.” Danny raised a brow, staring at his “mom” for a good long moment, then grinned cheekily. “Hey dick!” The tone was obvious. He wasn't using the name version of it. “Hey Danny!” Unfortunately it didn't have the effect he wanted as Dick was grinning ear to ear. Barbara shoulders were shaking a bit. Jazz turned back to Dick with a sigh. “Sorry. Danny doesn't really like to meet people.” “No need. I thought it was funny. The kids in my gymnastics class always get a kick out of my name.” Dick smiled. “Parents keep trying to force them to call him, Mr. Grayson. It doesn't work out too well.” Babs smiled. Danny stuck his tongue out. Of course someone who actively goes by Dick would be unbothered. He turned back to coloring, though pressing the crayon on the paper a bit too hard. “Oh, you teach gymnastics?!” Jazz asked curiously. “On the side. In Summer, I do it more. Especially with kids.” Dick explained. “I'll have to remember that for next year.” Jazz hummed with the thought. “I'm not going to dumb gymnastics class.” “It might help perfect your landing.” Jazz smiled with a wink. Danny narrowed his eyes at Jazz and huffed with a grumble back to his coloring pages. Groaning when he ripped the page with the crayon, before face planting into the table. “Landing?” Dick asked, giving a sympathetic smile Danny's way. “Oh, yeah. He likes to jump off of walls and tables and counters.” Jazz not looking at Dick as she said this, but up at the sky. Then she met him with eye contact again. “He scares me half to death.” A snort was heard from where Danny laid face down into the table. “He thinks its funny.” Jazz smiled. Dick raised a brow and then glanced at Babs. Barbara was gathering papers and stacking them, but gave a smile and shift of the brow in response. Danny stared at them, peaking above his arms where they laid. Danny liked Barbara okay. She did remind her of his sister, but more laid back. Jazz didn't know the meaning of chill. This Dick. Danny snorted to himself. He wasn't sure of. He didn't seem interested in his sister, but you never know. All he knew, that his head hurts now. He folded down his phone, that had stopped playing minutes ago. He flipped over the torn color page, lazily. Laying his head back down and started doodling on the back with a crayon. Snap. He hated crayons. --owo-- “So she was the one Jay saved.” Dick and Babs had separated themselves from Jazz and Danny to talk. Needing the privacy. “Yeah. She told me after she came in a few minutes late. She looked like she ran the rest of the way. Danny flopped face first into the floor.” Babs smiled. “Jaybird did say the kid reminded him of Damian. I think I see it, besides flopping onto the floor.” Dick chuckled. “I wonder if him and Damian would get along.” “If Damian doesn't try to kill him first.” Barbara chuckled. Dick sighed with a nod, then raised his head to look out the window of the back break room. “She so young though. She doesn't seem like the type to have one... that early.” “I was surprised to, but that's the joy of people right?” “If only it was always joy.” Dick shook his head, hating to know what happen to Jazz that left her that young with a kid.  “And she goes to college?” “Yep. All on her own. She does have an uncle that she rely on from time to time, but prefers to make it on her own. All her paperwork checks out. Even had a name change. It seems she disowned her parents.” “That doesn't bode well.” Dick crossed his arms as he leaned against the wall. “There isn't any police reports, so I say it was a falling out. Or at least hope. But she's a nice girl and she handles her son surprisingly well.” “Can't help, but do a thorough background check, can we?” “I blame Bruce.” Babs and Dick chuckled. Barbara cleared her throat and continued, “I didn't dig too far. She's a psychology major and has been in the city for a few years now. Had jobs here and there. Lives near the narrows. Not pleasant area, but better than other places she's lived.” “Huh, I'll text Jay to let him know later. Kind of crazy she chose to move here though, has she lived here before?” Dick asked curiously. Barbara shook her head as she pointed for a bag of chips closer to where Dick stood. Dick took a moment then grabbed it, tossing the small bag to her. She caught it, and opened it. “No. They lived in a place called Amity Park all their life. I asked her the first day she was here, she said its not that different. Amity just smaller. So take that as you will, I couldn't find much about Amity Park, but the government has a place there. So if I had to place a bet, is they're the reason its strange.” Babs took a chip and popped it into her mouth. “I thought you said you didn't dig too far?” Dick smiled. Babs just shrugged. “Didn't. That was just all easy access.” “Huh. So she just trying to get away from it then.” “My guess, and the reason I stopped. Some people deserve to live free of their past.” Barbara took her turn to glance out the window. “Yeah.” Dick looking up at the ceiling. He couldn't help, but think of his brother. Of mistakes made in the past. Mistakes Dick has done. Bruce has done. “Well,  I just dropped by to give you the files B wanted you to check out. I'll let you go back to work. Can't leave the new girl hanging.” “She's doing fine. Honestly glad to have her here.” Barbara sounded like she wasn't in a hurry but she stuffed her face with a few more chips, before folding the bag and placing it on the table. She dusted herself off ready to go back into the fold. “I'll send you more things Danny does too. He does keep things entertaining. Yesterday after he came in from school, he just took a dictionary and spent the whole day finding out different ways to call his teacher out while answering his homework correctly.” Barbara chuckled. Dick whistled, “Jazz get upset?” “No, she helped him come up with the idea.” Dick got a laugh out of that. People really were surprising.

[a-reader-and-a-writer]

One Bad Day.... (Part Two 1/2: The Dream)

Fandom: Batman, Batfam, Batmom

Word Count: 1795

TW: some language, ANGST so much angst (I'm really sorry)

Tag List: @hjgdhghoe, @dazaisleftballsack, @simp027, @mysticchopshop, @animefan3223, @eternalharry, @edgycatx, @lanatheawesome, @yandere-batfamfan, @zsalvatore-mikaelson, @constantshitposter, @lauramb7

Note: This is the dream the reader is having when she wakes up in Part 2 (should be read after Part 2 for context)

Based on a request from @animefan3223

Series Masterlist

You’ve had basically the same dream every night for the past five years. Ever since the night you were first arrested. Some of the details shift, people age, and the end can go in different directions, but the basic points are always the same. Half memory, half dream, this experience can shift between ending gut-clenchingly horribly to blissfully wonderful depending on those everchanging details.

But tonight, tonight you are having the best possible version of the dream. It is the one where every single moment is perfect and the only pain comes from knowing it will end and you will have to wake up from it. But while you are in it, it is your version of Heaven.

You are half-asleep in front of the Batcomputer, curled up under your favorite blanket. Just as you begin fully drifting off, you feel a set of fingers lightly brush against the side of your face. Smiling, but still keeping your eyes closed, you murmur, “You’re home early.”

“Honey, it’s 4:30 in the morning.”

“Exactly. You’re normally out much later.”

“I couldn’t wait to see you.” His lips press firmly into yours as you smile through the kiss.

When he pulls away, you finally open your sleep-heavy eyes. Rubbing your face, you grumble, “You know I hate when you kiss me with that thing on. It always pokes my nose.”

Bruce chuckles as he pulls off the cowl. Leaning over he gives you a small peck on the tip of your nose then a real kiss on your lips. “Better?”

“Much. Now where are the boys? Don’t tell me you came home early and made them stay out?”

“Now, what kind of father do you think I am?”

“A terrible one!” You look over your shoulder to see your sons walking into the Batcave, each with a bag of food and drinks. Dick is in the front, but you can’t take your eyes off of Jason.

“Uh oh, what did he do this time?” you say with a grin.

“He sent us on a food run then didn’t give us any way to pay. We had to get it….with our own money!”

“Oh no! The horror!”

“Nuh-uh, Jay. There was no ‘us’ or ‘we’. You didn’t pay for anything. I did!” Dick playfully shoves his younger brother.

“Fine, but the point is still valid. Who asks someone to pick up food for them without giving them a way to pay for it. That’s just rude.”

“If you recall, you said the two of you were stopping for food and you asked if I wanted anything. I said no. So how is that me asking you to pick up food? Or how does it become my responsibility to pay?” Bruce grumbles, but you could see a slight twinkle in his eyes.

“Well, because we brought Ma this.” Jason holds out a pink milkshake.

Your eyes light up. “Oh, gimmie, gimmie, gimmie! “

Jason chuckles as he hands it over. “God, you’re worse than a damn 6-year-old.”

“Hey, you watch your fucking mouth, mister!” You bark out between a mouthful of milkshake.

“Sorry, Ma.” Jason smiles as he bends down and kisses your head. The moment he touches you, a bolt of electricity floods through your system. You know he’s gone. He shouldn’t be here. But a small voice in the back of your head whispers, It’s okay… just give yourself this moment. For now, he is here and that’s all that matters. So, you let yourself fall back into the illusion, you let Jason be alive for the time being.

You stare into his eyes, and he gives you a sad, knowing smile. He pulls you into a tight hug and whispers in your ear, “Thank you, Ma. I know what you did, and it means everything to me.”

Before you can respond, he straightens up and starts to leave the cave. But you can’t let him leave like that, not without one last glance at your baby boy.

“Jay…” – he turns to look at you – “…Don’t stay up too late, okay?”

He smiles one last time and says, “As you wish, Ma.” And he disappears into the darkness.

You lean your head back in the chair, trying to stay in the fantasy where Jason is just heading up to his room. Where he is still alive and back as a part of your family. But the truth tickles at the back of your brain.

A hand on your shoulder pulls you from these thoughts. You smile up at your eldest son. “Hey, Dickie. Thanks again for the milkshake. It really hit the spot.”

“Anytime, Mom.” Dick smiles back. He intertwines his fingers with yours and you realize it is the first time you have touched him in a really long time without voices yelling about maintaining a distance barrier. You squeeze his hand tighter as you begin rubbing small circles with your thumb.

“Dick…. I hope you know that whatever I did… it wasn’t because I loved him more. I never meant to lose you too.”

Dick nods understandingly. “I know, Mom. I never thought any differently. You did what you had to do to deal with his loss. I’m just sorry about how things turned out.”

“I’m so proud of you and the man you’ve become. And I don’t know if I’ve ever told you that. Why did I never tell you that?” Tears start to form at the corners of your eyes, but Dick gently wipes them away.

“You didn’t have to. I already know.” He pulls you into a tight hug just like Jason had. Just another one of your boys who had essentially been taken from you.

As he walks away, you call after him, “Dick…keep an eye on Bruce. He needs someone like you to keep him grounded. And he’s always listened to you.”

Dick stares at you sadly. “Not always. Not when it mattered most.” And he too disappears into the dark.

You stare up at the ceiling high above you, trying to control the storm raging within you. You feel Bruce approach and stand next to your shoulder.

“Are you thinking about it again?”

“When am I not?”

Bruce crouches down to your level and takes your hand. “Hey, look at me.” You hesitate for a moment, then turn your eyes to meet his. They are full of a love and devotion you haven’t seen in a long time. “It’s okay. I know we had a rough time right after it happened, but we’ve both moved on since then. I get why you did what you did. I might not like it, but I understand why you thought you had to kill him. And it’s over now. Jay’s back, the Joker’s gone, and our life is about to get a whole lot better.” He kisses your temple firmly before standing. “Now it’s time for you to get some sleep. It’s not good to be up this late.”

He gently helps hoist you out of the chair. Your blanket falls to the floor as you teeter slightly, adjusting to your new equilibrium caused by your protruding stomach. You smile brightly as you feel a flurry of movement just beneath your skin. Taking Bruce’s hand, you place it just above your belly button. “She wants to say hello.”

“I think you mean he wants to say good night.”

“What makes you so certain it’s a boy?”

“Well, what makes you so certain it’s a girl? If you just let the doctor tell us, we wouldn’t have to keep playing this guessing game.”

You shrug. “I like the mystery. And regardless, I love this little one so much already, it doesn’t really matter. It’s part you and part me. What more could I ask for?” You loved both of your sons as if they were your own, but the thought of you and Bruce raising a baby that was your own….it had always been your deepest desire. And at one time, it was almost a reality until…..No! You slam down the barrier blocking those memories from slipping in. Not now, not in this moment. This is all that matters. And it works. You are left with just the thought of the here and now. And you take Bruce’s hand in yours.

But then you feel it. Starting from far off in the distance, you could sense the rumbling, shimmering, shakiness of the dream failing as consciousness struggled to gain control once more. Panic floods through you and you throw yourself into Bruce’s open arms.

“No, not this time. Not this one. Please, please Bruce, let me stay. This, this is everything I have ever wanted. You, Dick, Jason,….our baby. Happy and together just like it was supposed to be. I can’t lose it all again. I can’t wake up empty and alone again, trapped in that cell with no way out. Please, I don’t care what it means, just let me stay here, with you. Let us be a family again.”

Bruce cups your cheek in his hand. “My heart, you know that can’t happen. This isn’t real. This is just the life that could have been, should have been. And maybe it is, in some other world, in some other time, but not for us. And I’m so sorry for that. I’m so sorry I wasn’t the man you needed, the man I should have been. And I’m so sorry for the pain and loss you’ve had to endure because of that. And I’m so sorry that you have to go through this again, and again every night. If I knew how, I would make it so you never had to come back and experience it again.”

You shake your head. “Oh, Bruce. Even if that were an option, I wouldn’t choose it. I would take the pain of losing you a million times just to spend one moment back in your arms. Even if I know it’s not real. Because it was once. And because being loved by you….. it was the greatest experience of my life.” The world around you shakes and cracks apart. Everything blurs except for you and the man you loved. You trace your fingers down his face, trying to hold on to this feeling for as long as possible. “The night we met, you told me that you didn’t believe in happily ever after, but I said we would be the proof that it was real. I guess you were right after all.”

Bruce pulls you close, arms wrapping around you in a tight embrace. Your eyes flutter closed as his lips brush up against your ear and he whispers, “It’s never too late.”

The prison security alarm wakes you from your restless slumber.

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