#she will always be between babs and dick's age to me

[roipecheur]

While the reverse robins trope does not usually Compel™ me (sorry), I was thinking today about keeping the rest the same but reversing Tim and Steph. To be clear, I think this would be 10x worse for Steph and probably at least slightly worse for Tim.

(Warning: this does get a little Bruce critical. I do like Bruce as a character, but part of me liking him is putting him under a magnifying glass and examining his Bastard tendencies.)

So. If Bruce met Steph/Spoiler first. She'd be about 12/13, same age as Tim. Bruce is mourning Jason, out of his mind with grief, and then he meets this bright, fierce kid who reminds him a little of Jason but quips and laughs in the face of death like he hasn't seen since Dick. Since Steph is doing this to fight Cluemaster (her dad) and doesn't want him to figure out who she is, she's pretending to be a boy. This unintentionally goes a long way in getting Bruce to accept her.

Because Bruce was really fucking sexist in the '90s and '00s. I don't know if this was a deliberate character choice or the sexism of the writers/DC at the time or a mixture of both since Bruce of course would've had a bunch of different writers during that time. You only have to look at the difference in how he extended endless compassion and second chances to Jean-Paul Valley and Bane, two men who attacked him and broke his big no-killing taboo, and how he treated Helena and Steph--like loose canon liabilities despite how they were generally doing the vigilante thing and not getting dead. And, to a lesser extent, how Bruce treated Babs especially during War Games, and how he treated Cass.

In Cass, Bruce really wanted a kindred spirit. He wanted someone who lived and breathed the mission like he did, for Batgirl to be who she was in the way Batman is who Bruce is. Bruce Wayne is the mask, and one it seems at times (Fugitive arc) that he'd happily discard. I've only read a few issues of Cass' Batgirl run, mostly while following Tim's appearances, but I've gathered that Bruce gets into a snit whenever she goes off script and does her own thing. It threatens him.

Back to little 12-13 year old Spoiler, who Bruce at this point thinks is a boy. They team up and defeat Cluemaster, and during the fight, Arthur unmasks Steph and realizes he was about to kill his own daughter, which is what allows Bruce to get the drop on him and send him away. Bruce's assumptions have been rocked a bit, but Steph's dad is now in prison (again) and for plot and convenience reasons, let's say Steph's mom is having drug problems and is about to lose custody to the system. Bruce has always solved his emotional problems by taking in wayward children, so he scoops Steph up.

Alfred, Dick, Babs, Clark, and little Tim Drake watching through his camera lens: "What the fuck."

This prompts Tim to track Dick down, which he was about to do anyway, except instead of "hey I think Batman is going to get himself killed" it's "hey I think Batman is gonna get another kid killed because he's got a new Robin already" and Dick, who is hearing about this for the first time, goes home to yell at Bruce. Meanwhile, Steph and Tim have intense rivalry/tension at first sight. Tim's Robin material and a Real Boy, and Steph accuses him of wanting to be Robin in her place. Tim claims he doesn't want to be Robin (but deep down, he kinda does, and he also thinks he could do a better job).

Also. Bruce is extremely hard on Steph because he subconsciously or semi-consciously needs her to make up for the fact that she's 1) not Dick and 2) the Robin after Jason. Part of it is justified because he doesn't want another kid to die on him, and part of it is Bruce forcing her to choose between normal middle school activities and friends and being Robin. He isolates her in a way he didn't with Dick or Jason in the name of protecting her--definitely doesn't let her go off with the Titans or meet the Justice League or anything like that. Steph, desperate for approval and someone willing to spend the time on her, tries to live up to his expectations while chafing under them.

Fun bonus: Bruce makes Steph hide her blonde hair under a short, black wig on patrol in a call-back to making Jason in the pre-Crisis timeline dye his red hair black. He says it's to help protect her identity (and pretending to be a boy was Steph's idea first), but it almost seems like it lets Bruce forget she isn't a boy when they're out as Batman and Robin.

Bruce also keeps letting Tim hang around. He says it's because Tim knows their secrets and has some useful computer skills, so it's better to keep him where he can see him. Privately, he also thinks Tim pushes Steph to become better and work harder. Steph resents Tim heavily because she sees him as a threat--someone to replace her as Robin if she steps out of line--and their relationship improves once Tim starts working more closely with Babs instead. While Babs wasn't willing to take on Steph's training in her Spoiler days in the pre-Flashpoint timeline, Tim's already good with computers. He can provide support on that front and fill in for her in a way that Steph couldn't, so he finds a niche with Oracle.

When Cass shows up, Bruce pits her and Steph against each other and sets Cass up as an 'example' for Steph. It pisses Steph off because she was here first, and maybe she can't fight like Cass and never will, but she can do stuff like talk to people they need information from and pretend to be a Normal Teenager to blend in when the situation calls for it. Despite that, she tries to be friends with Cass...and it works a little too well for Bruce's liking. Steph does something like take Cass on a girls' night to a skating rink and a movie where they wear dresses and do their hair and nails and makeup, and Bruce is furious because they disappeared and weren't answering comms. He benches only Steph for that, which is shitty to Steph and infantilizing to Cass.

Steph could still get pregnant at 15-16--without meaning to, Bruce set her up very well for that. Living with Bruce and being Robin for a few years in those conditions would make Steph want someone to see her as a girl, as the person she was and wanted to be, and not as how well she could fit the mission. Essentially, an easy target for an older guy who told her all the right things. Bruce is angry with her when he finds out....and tells her that she has to choose between Robin and the baby. Steph chooses to carry the pregnancy to term. This happens to correspond with her mom getting better and wanting custody back, so Steph goes back to her mom's house, and Bruce more or less lets her. (Alfred side-eyes him, but we all know that's all the enabler-in-chief will do.)

It's very easy after that for Tim to step into Robin. Bruce was preparing him for this possibility all along. At this point, Tim just started dating Steph--as in the comics, right before Steph found out she was pregnant--and he wants to at least talk to her about it first. But the call comes in an emergency situation, and Tim goes out in the suit, and Steph finds out via rumors or the news. She's upset with Tim, but he shows up later to apologize, and Steph's starting to realize she should be more angry with Bruce.

Steph carries the pregnancy to term, gives her baby up for adoption, and dusts off her old Spoiler suit because she doesn't think she'll get Robin back and isn't sure she wants it. She fills in for Tim when he's at Brentwood and when his dad finds out he's Robin and makes him quit, but it's never the same, and the mantle is never really hers again. As in the comics...Bruce uses Steph when Tim's not around, and he uses her to try and get Tim back.

I don't like the whole War Games arc and I fuckin hate how it treated Steph, so. Since I'm sitting here spinning yarns, rather than Steph stealing Bruce's plans and starting a citywide gang war in a misguided attempt to impress him, she steals information on everyone who trained Bruce in her quest to Find a Mentor Who Gives a Damn. It's the last straw after Bruce fires her--again--for saving his life. Steph skips town, has adventures and misadventures on her training world tour, and eventually comes back to Gotham and becomes Batgirl after Cass gives it up.

As I said. It's Worse.

[dibs4ever]

High school aged Dick and Barbara hanging out after school at the Manor

Barbara:you've been off all week, what’s bothering you?

Dick: nothing

Barbara: spill

Dick: *sigh* Abby-

Barbara: your girlfriend of 3 months?

Dick: Yeah…..she’s been on my case about spending too much time….with you.

Barbara: Oh…I- did I over step a boundry at some point? I'm sorry if I did anything to make her uncomfortable

Dick: no you didn't- she just. She thinks you're pretty and didn't like that I was such good friends with you. Doesn't like that I text and call you. Doesn't like that I'm friends and was saying if I wanted to continue dating her I couldn't hang out with you

Barbara: Oh

Dick: So I broke up with her

Barbara: Dick—-why? Because of me, I ruined your relationship

Dick: No! Of course not!! Babs you are the answer! Given the choice between you and anyone the answer will always be you. I can live without Abby in my life I can't live without you in my life

Barbara: Awe Dick…..wait you didn't tell Abby that did you?

Dick: of course not! I told her that I couldn't date someone who didn't trust me

[toulousewayne]

Batfam and Batsis Headcannon: Ages 17-21

Tim:

Timothy Jackson Drake, was a little menace. Y/n knew that from the Time she found him on her doorstep. Tim was the first person Y/n felt like she had to really be careful of her actions in front of. Not because Tim would copy her but because she felt like she was supposed to set an example something she never had to do.

Tim becoming Robin was a bit of a blur for her, she just remembers them patrolling a lot and Tim asking her a lot questions in the beginning.

Tim didn’t live at the manor right away in fact it was a bit into his career before he fully moved in after his parents respected passings.

Tim felt guilty for not saving his father and Y/n spend a lot of time with him to help resolve this feelings because it wasn’t Tim’s fault.

Tim was the little brother she always wanted, he steal her eyeliner and she storm into his room and pick with him while Kon,Bart and Cassie would come over. They loved Tim’s cool older sister and she liked them.

Tim had trouble with words, especially with his feelings. It was no surprise to anyone that Tim walked into his sister’s room on a random Thrusday Night with blush on his face.

“What is it Little Bird?” She inquired while still having her face shoved in a Physics textbook.

Scratching the back of his neck and breathed out a strangled sign,” How do you know when you like someone?”

Y/n turned her gaze to him,”Like or Like Like?”

“Like like.”

“Boy or Girl?”

His blush grew even darker,”Well uhh..”

“Doesn’t matter to me, but just be your normal dorky self. Just don’t word vomit. You tend to do that Little Bird.”

Tim came out to his older sister first years later because she made Tim feel seen but not like it wasn’t a big deal.

Tim and Y/n formed a a very fun bond, it even rivaled his bond with Dick which made the older man a little jealous but it made him become more active with his younger brother which was something Y/n wanted him to do.

Patrol with Batgirl, Robin and Nightwing were the most comical nights Gotham had seen. You had a detective smartass Robin, a chatty hot headed older Bird, and the sassy and mysterious Batgirl. Riddler still has nightmares.

But things began to change and soon other additions became known.

Cassandra:

Y/n had made it clear to Bruce that she wanted a sister, not that she didn’t enjoy her time with Tim and Dick and even Jason. But she wanted someone who could relate to her.

One night after patrol Y/n returned to the Clock Tower and was introduced to Cass. She didn’t talk and once Barbara told her about what happened to her it only made Y/n more protective of her.

Between her and Babs Cass began to think for herself and not like how she was programmed by her father. Barbara taught Cass more about personal and emotional development, but Y/n showed Cass how to be a teenage girl.

She took her to the mall with Tim and let her pick out clothes she felt comfortable with, she let Cass take clothes from her closet in the end because it made her feel connected to people.

Y/n was training and Cass enter the room,”Sorry didn’t realize I was taking so long, I’ll clear out if you like.”

“No,your fine.” Cass responses. Cass takes a stance in front of her. Y/n gets in stance and they too spar. Cass can quickly match Y/n’s attacks and defenses.

The two sparred for a few hours before calling it. “Not bad Sis, how about a Root Beer Float on me?”

“Okie.”

Y/n wraps her arm around Cass and the pair walk out the gym. They two Wayne Sisters scare Bruce. And most men except Alfred.

Y/n was getting ready to graduate Gotham Academy with Honors and she felt kinda sad and Cass appeared before her and engulfed her in a hug.

“She would be proud.” She knew Cass was referring to Y/n’s Mom. “Thank you Sissy.”

Everyone attended,Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Barbara, Tim, and Cass. She was so happy and Bruce threw a party at Wayne Manor for the graduation class.

Y/n took Cass from a group of kids she met at school and took her to her room.

“Cass I your aware that I’m leaving in a few weeks for college in Metropolis.” Cass nodded.

“As much fun as it would be to tag along with Uncle Clark, I just won’t have to time or really need to patrol. Which is why I talked to Babs a few days ago and I’m stepping down as Batgirl.”

Cass understood what she was saying but she also knew how hard Y/n worked to become the new Batgirl.

Y/n took a black box and handed it to Cass. “Me and Babs think your ready and I couldn’t ask for someone else to carry on the mantle.” Cass tore open the box to find her own Batgirl suit.

Tears formed in Cass’s eyes and she hugged Y/n

“I won’t let you down.”

“I know sis, your gonna rock.” Y/n smiled and hugged her back.

Stephanie:

Y/n had taken a step down from being Batgirl full time meaning for a short time Robin patrolled alone. She felt guilty but soon she learned that her little bird had a friend.

Y/n meet Stephanie when Tim and her became official, this was only a few months before she totally resigned from the mantle but she did get to work with Steph a hand full of times.

One of the last times was when ClueMaster escaped from Blackgate and threaten Stephanie’s Mom.

Spoiler spring into action and Batgirl responded to Oracle’s request to assist her. The two formed a plan of action to enter Stephanie’s Mom job and save the hostages.

“You take the left side and I’ll go right. Take the goons out swiftly and hard.”

“Rodger that Batgirl.”

The pair made quick work of the goons, and finally found ClueMaster who had Steph’s mom hostage.

Once they save her she was anything but thankful and resented her daughter for re-prisoning her father.

Batgirl called her own and made the woman feel bad but the damage was done as Stephanie told Batgirl on a rooftop later that night, she learned that she wasn’t to blame for her parents choices nor should she have to atone for her father’s sins.

“Your Steph, never let anyone tell you stop being who you are and never stop being a light for others.”

Even once Stephanie and Tim relationship became more friendly and less romantic Y/n loved the blonde just as much.

Steph would drive up on the weekends with Cass and visit her in college. They would go shopping, try new restaurants and go fun amusement parks.

Stephanie and Y/n become really good friends and if Y/n needed to talk someone who was her siblings or Dad Steph was always willing to listen.

Jason Pt 2:

When Red Hood first emerged Y/n was away in school and no one told her. She had a long weekend and came home to surprise her family. Alfred was the most surprised to find her at the door but by the look on his face it didn’t seem like she was the first surprise this week.

She soon found out about Dick’s bruised ribs and broken leg, and Tim being attacked at Titan’s tower. Even Bruce had token a beaten from his last encounter with Red Hood and Y/n was furious.

“HOW DARE YOU NOT TELL YOU GOT HURT!” She scolded her father.

“y/n, please we didn’t want to worry you, we have everything under—“

She scoffed,”Like Hell you do! Your hurt Dick is black and blue,and Tim looks like he just did three tours in World War Two.”

She bit her tongue,”Who is he Father?”

Bruce sighed,”Y/n..”

“I won’t ask twice.”

Bruce didn’t answer her but instead pressed the button on the computer that light up with the DNA test he just got the results back minutes before her arrival.

Over the course of a minute several different emotions washed over her face and it landed on stoic. She turned on her heels and left the cave with Bruce calling for her to wait.

In a hours time she stood in front of a door in an abandoned apartment complex and knocked on the door. When no once answered she kicked the door down. And in the center of the room was a man laughing with a sack on his head as he was tied and chained to a folding chair.

She marched to him and ripped off the sack and there was bloody and bruised Joker.

“Ooh hello your the beautiful Wayne Daughter that left. Welcome back cupcake.” He chuckled. The sound of the gun clicking filled the room with Joker’s blooded laughing.

“Turn around.” The deep voice ordered. Smirking to herself, “if you were gonna shot me you’d pull the trigger already big brother.”

The room is silent and before Red Hood screams in pain, when Y/n turns around his hand is bloody and a Batarang is on the ground.

“Stand down Jason, he’s not worth it.” Batman brooded.

“You never understood me Old man, I never wanted to kill innocent people. Not Harvey,not Bane just him. He took me away from you..from her. From everything.”

The two had a heated argument and fight that ended with Bruce shielding Y/n from the explosion of the building.

Y/n returned to Jason’s grave and laid flowers. Sighing to herself she stood up and turned to the tree adjacent to his grave.

“You could have found me, I would have helped you Jay. I still can.” Jason appeared in a hoodie and refused to look her in the eyes.

“You always saw the best in me, even when I didn’t deserve it.”

“Bullshit Todd, you can play that song all you want but it doesn’t work on me.” She snapped.

He finally met her gaze, it was the first time since prior to his death did she see his face. His blue eyes now a deep green, a white tuff of hair at the base of his hair, a scare on his left cheek, his eyes look tired as well.

“I’m not who I used to be, I’ve changed, I’ve killed and I can’t change that. They don’t see it but what I do is stop the murders, rapistst the monsters from hurting people.”

She signed,”I won’t lie and say Dad’s ways have flaws but so do yours,” she glanced at the tombstone and dusted it off.

“I remember you taking to me, you visted me all the time.” He grinned .

“And now your back.” She smiled

He didn’t meet her gaze,” it’s not gonna be happy in the Manor, maybe never again.”

“You could try to find out what you want Jay, not many get a second chance at life.”

He nodded and with that he sighed with a grin,”I make no promises, I’ll see you around sis.” And he left the graveyard and she sighed to herself knowing that it was possible but it would take sometime for them to get Jason back.

When she returned to the manor she heard shouting and screaming. She rushed into the living room where Bruce and Dick were trying to keep Tim and and a young boy from killing each other.

“That fucking Demon cut me!” Tim shrieked.

“And I’ll draw more of your pathetic blood imposter.” The boy hissed being held in a tight grip by Dick.

“I can’t leave you idiots alone for five minutes!” Y/n snapped and all the eyes turned to her.

The boy with the deep copper skin and jade eyes was the first to speak,”Is she another one of your bastards you plucked off the sidewalk.” He hissed at Bruce.

Y/n eyed the boy before she turned back to her father,”And who might he be.”

“Damian, he’s your little Brother Y/n.” A tired Bruce clarified.

“Brother!”

“SHE’S MY SISTER!”

[silverwhittlingknife]

the reason why nu52 Dick is so simultaneously messy and yet boring is because they don't let him be bitchy enough whilst simultaneously making him a little bitch

sdfsdfdsfs I don't totally understand what this means and yet I feel like I agree with the spirit, anon <3

Outsiders 21 - preboot Dick yelling at Bruce my beloved

Yeah, caveat that there's plenty of nu52 Dick stuff that I haven't read and I don't think it's all bad, but also... man, he is not for me. As far I'm concerned, the main good thing that came out of n52/Rebirth is some setups for sad!Dick fanfic. And yeah, "Dick is not bitchy enough" is actually a pretty good summary of my complaints sdfdsfs

The thing is, nu52 Dick has some similarities to preboot Tim, in that he'll sometimes be insincerely fake-cheerful even when actually upset, plus he periodically seems uncomfortable with direct confrontation so instead he lies to avoid confrontation. And mmm I mean, I like these qualities in preboot Tim, so it's not like I think these are terrible traits to have!!

BUT :

1) Preboot Tim has no authority. But preboot Dick does, and it's frustrating to take it away from him in nu52.

There's some post-2011 panel where Dick lies to Batman and is cheery about it, a la Tim bragging to his friends about lying to Batman in Teen Titans, and I had to stare at it for ages trying to figure out why it felt like such a record scratch moment to me.

But it's because there is a huge difference between a presumably independent superhero lying to another superhero vs. a sidekick and his sidekick friends secretly joyriding in Batman's car.

Like, Tim lies to authority figures more-or-less constantly, because he doesn't want to be told what to do, but also because - importantly!! - those authority figures reasonably assume they have authority over him that he has to evade. Of course he tries to avoid direct confrontation with the JLA / Batman / Red Tornado / Starfire - they're not his equals and a direct confrontation would end badly!

Whereas Nightwing lying to Batman feels like putting him in a subordinate position in a way that preboot Dick never is. Preboot Dick always tells Batman off to his face, because preboot Dick cares about being equals and refuses to accept being subordinate. He doesn't sneak around behind Bruce's back - he fights back! If he doesn't agree with Bruce's position, he tries to argue Bruce into his own. He'll do stuff without asking Bruce's permission, but he won't conceal it; he'll make a point of making sure Bruce knows what he did and also that he isn't sorry.

2) Preboot Tim's lying / tendency to be fake with people is a consistent personality trait that's also consistently problematized. nu52 Dick's characterization is wildly all over the map.

In preboot, Tim is a liar and obsessive compartmentalizer, which is both a strength (disguises, sneaking around authority) and a problem (loved ones who are hurt by it). He's self-aware about his lies, periodically resolves to lie less, and generally fails at it.

Tim's consistent enough that you can track this character trait in all his relationships: he lies to his dad. He lies to Batman. He lies to his girlfriends. He refuses to tell Babs his real name for ages for basically no reason. He stalks Dick and then tries to run away from him in his origin story and then tries to avoid telling Dick his name. And this evasiveness consistently causes him problems!! Dick's suspicious of him. Ariana's suspicious of him. His dad is suspicious of him. Young Justice and Steph get annoyed with his secret-keeping. Young Justice want him to take off the mask. Steph wants to know his real name. When she finds out and calls him by his real name, he has a panic attack and literally runs away. When upset, he insists he's fine and fake-smiles at people. In Teen Titans, when Tim's busy being fake-cheerful and Conner is startled to see him there right after his dad died, Tim gets upset and angry at Conner and demands that he not tell anyone about Jack. Fine, Conner says, I guess it's another secret. In AC 3, he's lying to Conner again and Conner accuses him of having an insincere "Starfire voice," which is a hilarious callback to Tim being fake-agreeable-yet-secretly-bitchy at Kory when he first meets her. I feel like I get that the lying is a Tim Character Trait which is sometimes endearing and sometimes less so and which all the people who love him are gonna have different feelings about.

By contrast, nu52 Dick spends a ton of time lying but it's hard for me to model his characterization in the same way? He's sometimes fake and ... sometimes that's totally cool and sometimes people punch him! also, does it say something about him? ehhhhh maybe? no? who can say!! At the end of nu52 Nightwing, he doesn't want to go undercover and Bruce beats him up, but then in Grayson he seems totally on board with his mission and willing to actively lie to everyone, and then in Batman and Robin Eternal he carries out a whole secret mission behind nuTim's back because he thinks nuTim is maybe a spy and is scared (?) of confronting him directly, but also he's so sloppy about it that he gets followed and the bad guys find nuTim's parents. Oopsie! He represents The Heart and is super-caring but also somewhat ditzy with a tendency to leap before he looks, and also he's very very very goodlooking and Grayson would really like you to know that.

You can try to make sense of this character's internal motivations and I have read various enjoyable fanfics that do, but in the comics I don't feel like he's clearly characterized.

3) Dick should be a convincing team leader

I know I kind of talked about this earlier but it bothers me SO MUCH that I have to talk about it again dsfdsfds

Preboot Dick is a natural leader: he seizes control of the feuding personalities in the Fab Five; he does the same thing in the NTT; he stands up to Bruce. He can overrule strong personalities like Pantha and Roy; he can hold his ground against the Outsiders. He doesn't back down and he doesn't quit. He's got instinctive authority, and he's a forceful and aggressive enough leader that he can lead teams even when his teammates are feuding or difficult or arguing with each other. Sometimes he's a little too forceful and it backfires on him, but for the most part, it works!

By contrast, nu52 Dick often comes off as kinda... hapless? He's definitely not a force to be reckoned with.

Like, just to take one small example, in post-Crisis's Red Robin 14, Tim and Damian are fighting and Dick wants them to cut it out, so he throws a batarang at Tim's staff and snaps at him, and the fight stops immediately. By contrast, in nu52's Batman and Robin 10, Tim and Damian are arguing and Dick wants them to cut it out, but nuDick is incapable of confronting anyone over anything so he just sighs about it, passive-aggressive and ineffectual.

And "ineffectual" is too often the vibe I get from n52 Dick in general. You put that man with Pantha, and he'll probably be bemused, but he won't be able to make Pantha do anything, and he wouldn't be able to make Danny Chase do anything, and he can't or won't stand up to Bruce so he has to lie the way Tim does, and he would never have a fistfight with Roy over the proper way to lead a team.

And in a lot of ways this makes sense, because n52 Dick isn't a team leader, because they've deleted the Titans. He's just a guy. He's nice, I guess.

But even though he gets all kinds of excellent woobie plotlines that I'd normally enjoy (an evil organization is stalking him personally! his dad is beating him up and forcing him into becoming a spy! he's losing his memory!) his personality is usually so far off from the character I like that I struggle to get invested.

Because the thing is, Dick's leadership instincts aren't incidental to what I like about him. They're all wrapped up in his outsized sense of personal responsibility and instinctive belief that if anything is going wrong anywhere near him then it is his obligation to handle it and if anything goes wrong then it's his fault if he was involved and also his fault if he wasn't involved and actually if you have ever gotten within five feet of him and unrelatedly something bad happened to you then it's probably his fault and he FAILED. This belief gives Dick a lot of control issues and makes him bitchy sometimes and is not great for his mental health, but it's also very endearing and an outgrowth of how much Dick cares!

Anyway, re:bitchiness, I have similar feelings about various choices in Batgirls and in Tim Drake: Robin and in current Nightwing; like, I don't think any of these stories are bad ipso facto, I don't begrudge anyone who likes them, and I certainly enjoy fluffy fanfic sometimes - I don't always want the same things in transformative fandom that I want in canon.

But in comics, I often want the characters to have a bit of edge, to be cranky and difficult and just... y'know, clearly the kind of people who would choose to be vigilantes. I want them to care enough to be bitchy about it. And I often feel like I'm missing that, post-2011.

[pluckyredhead]

please talk to me abt dinah & roy 🥺 i want all your thoughts (especially because i also do not enjoy her being called his mom, like im sorry but. no.)

Lol okay so the bait worked. Someone ask about Clark and Kon next! (That one will probably take me the weekend to write.)

I want to be clear here: Dinah and Roy's relationship is so important to me, and they love each other very deeply. When I say she isn't his mom, I don't mean that to downplay their importance to each other in any way. Dinah is one of the people Roy loves and trusts the most - like, top 5 in the world - and vice versa. It's just an oversimplification to call their dynamic maternal/filial, though that is part of their dynamic.

Anyway I have three primary arguments here. The first is based on...I'm gonna say 2.5 canon moments that DO exist.

Arsenal #1. Dinah shows up at Roy's apartment and they IMMEDIATELY start flirting.

I mean. That is not how mothers and sons interact outside of ancient Greek plays. They're joking about having sex! Come on!

On the very next page, Roy literally tells Dinah she's not his mom:

And sure, a lot of times an attitude of "You're not my real mom!" is used to reinforce the idea that yes, she absolutely is his real mom...but like, she was joking about his dick 30 seconds ago. So no.

There's also this body language, which again is very sexual:

And among the many nicknames she gives him in this issue is "cutie," which doesn't really read as paternal when you're talking to a fellow adult.

Now again, this is an absolutely wonderful issue that really dives deep into how close Roy and Dinah are and how much they love each other. But what it doesn't do is depict them as mother and son.

2. Birds of Prey #68. Dinah finds out that Helena slept with Roy and is (weirdly) upset, so Helena makes a crack about how it wasn't even that good ("Archers - they pull a mighty bow, but they're too quick to let fly, if you know what I...").

I have some problems with this scene - Babs and Dinah welcoming Helena to the team by slutshaming her is not a good look - but Babs's line in the second panel is really telling to me. "He's like a kid brother to her. Maybe almost like a son." Babs is Dinah's closest friend, and even she describes Dinah's relationship with Roy in these ambivalent, not-easily-categorized terms. Ollie is Roy's dad. But Dinah is Roy's...friend-sister-mother-colleague???

2.5. Secret Origins #50. This one is less clear-cut, but it's another of my favorite Dinah and Roy moments. Dinah gets a call in the middle of the night telling her that her mother is dying. Ollie calls Hal, who flies Ollie and Dinah across the country to the hospital, and then says "There's someone else I think should be here" and leaves. He comes back with Roy.

Now, Roy is an adult, and I'm not saying that adult children can't comfort their parents, which is why I listed it as 2.5 and not 3. But this scene has always struck me as very much an interaction between peers and not a son reaching up to a mother - especially since even Hal recognized that Roy would be a comfort to Dinah. (And hey, good job being emotionally intuitive for once in your life, Hal! It will never happen again.)

My second argument is canon moments that DON'T exist. Specifically, Roy and Dinah do not refer to each other as mother and son, and neither does anyone else, except in the two examples above which are denials of that relationship. Roy and Ollie refer to each other as father and son on a regular basis, but even though Roy and Dinah are close, they don't use those words. Because they don't apply.

And my final argument is age gap, or the lack thereof. I'm putting this at the end because I think it's the weakest argument due to comic book character ages being so inconsistent, but I do think it's worth noting that they are often much closer in age than you might assume.

Now, when Roy and Dinah first met in 1971, this was the original pre-Crisis Dinah Drake Lance, who had canonically been active during WWII. Even if we make her about as young as we can possibly get away with and say she was 18 when the war ended in 1945, that makes her 44 at the youngest in 1971, and probably a little older. If we figure Roy was about 17 during Snowbirds Don't Fly (it's hard to pin down his exact age; it's not stated in the comic, and Dick was in college by then but Wally wouldn't graduate high school until the 80s, so his peers aren't a good guide), Dinah would be 27 years older than him - definitely old enough to be his mother.

However, after the retcon that made Dinah her own mother (it's a thing) and she became Dinah Laurel Lance, I think we can safely halve her age. Which makes her more like 5 years older than Roy - not a gap that feels at all maternal.

Post-Crisis, Dinah was explicitly 19 when she became a founding member of the Justice League and first met Ollie, which makes her...maybe 7 years older than an approximately 12 years old brand-new-Speedy!Roy? Again, not a parental age gap.

I doubt anyone working at DC today could tell you at gunpoint how old either of these characters are now, but the point is, for much of continuity, Dinah and Roy are actually the same generation. That is not how parents work!

IN CONCLUSION: While there is occasionally a maternal element to Dinah's relationship with Roy, and while she is certainly the closest thing to a mother he has ever had (mother figures have been so absent in his life it was an actual plot point in an issue of Titans), she is not his mother, and neither of them view her that way. And diminishing their relationship to a simplistic mother-son dynamic in a simplistic nuclear family structure is dismissive of both the fascinating, complex, wonderful relationship they actually do have, and the nuances of the unique relationship dynamics that can exist within found families.

[karaspal]

could drop a list of some of your hc for Kara Zor-El? What makes you love the character so much? If you could reintroduce someone or something for a new story for Supergirl!Kara

i feel like i have a lot of kara hcs but for some reason i can't think of that many at the top of my head. here are some i can think of:

sexuality hcs first - arrowverse!kara is ace and bi, moive!kara is a lesbian (and her brainy is a woman) and so is maws!kara, pre-crisis!kara is bi, and current kara is also a lesbian (and her brainy should be a woman);

here i talked about the movies i'd think she'd have fun starring in + i think she'd love to do a play on broadway;

kara is the photographer of the family. she's always taking pictures of her loved ones;

kara and damian are actually really good friends and hang out together. they have an older sister / younger brother type of dynamic;

i know it was canon at one point, but to me, kara is still the same age as dick and babs;

the older kara gets, the more she looks like her mother;

as time passed by, and because of the yellow sun on earth, her eye color changed to a deeper shade of blue;

kara, lois and lana have regular girls' nights out;

kara and lucy were in love in the supergirl movie;

at one point in the show, kara liked nia romantically, but decided a friendship between them is also good when she relaised nia doesn't like her like that;

one summer, kara and nat were camp counselors (while dating) at a steelworks summer camp. kara was stressing out because she wanted to make sure the kids had fun. nat was stealing kisses whenever the kids weren't looking which pissed kara off, but also made her smile every time;

during the future house of el stuff, kara wasn't the only one leading the house of el. thao-la was too, and they were married;

as to what makes me love the character... everything, to be honest. i've been a fan of kara ever since i was 13 years old. my first introduction to her was the tv show, and it was the first time i saw someone so kindhearted and compassionate and just good. and a few years after, i started reading her comics too.

i’ve always been fascinated by aliens, journalists, and superheroes (i was a weird kid), so seeing someone who checked all three boxes really stuck with me lol. not that i want her to be a journalist in the comics -- i don’t -- but i love that she is one in the show.

besides her altruistic nature, she's just a great person all around. i love her sense of humor and her love for musicals. i love how artistic she is. i love her style (minus a few eras). i love how hard she fights for what she believes in. i love the gentleness in her voice when she's comforting a loved one, and the soft kisses she presses to their temple whenever words aren’t enough.

i love the way she loves her family and friends, and how ride-or-die she is for them. i love the leader she is, and how she always makes sure the people on her team are okay. i love how gentle she is with kids, especially kids she sees her younger self in. kara is the most older sister i've ever seen, which is funny because she doesn't actually have a younger sibling. that's just the vibe she brings to the table.

i love kara’s flaws too. i love how hot-headed and stubborn she can be sometimes. i love her self-righteousness and the arrogance that comes from wanting to protect everyone. everything she does, she does because she wants to help. and that’s what i love most about her.

as for characters i'd like them to bring, i'd say her pre-crisis supporting cast. bring back lena, dick and nasty. and bring back some of her old villains too. the gang is the first that comes to mind. xenon too. but i'm fine with whatever, as long as kara gets to expand her rouge gallery. and as for something, i'd like her to be an actress again. or something artistic. and i'd like for her to move back to new york. i don't know how i feel about her going back to midvale as opposed to a big city yet.

anyways, sorry for the long ramblings and thanks for the ask! :)

[not-a-matopoeia]

HEAD CANNON HILLS I PERSONALLY CHOOSE TO DIE ON:

Fight me (lol)

Bruce Wayne

Gray Hairs are mostly in and around his temples and beard- also he won’t dye it

Asexual but not sex repulsed (it just feels right)

Definitely experienced with makeup, sure to cover bruises and stuff but also he definitely had a phase where he wore eyeliner cause why not

Autistic

Dick Grayson

Crooked nose

Speaks some Roma still but has forgotten most of it, which makes him upset

People deffo thought he was gay all through school, and they weren’t wrong…or right (he’s some form of queer)

Gymnastics teacher as a side job

ADHD

Oldest Daughter SyndromeTM

Jason Todd

I think that Jason runs a book club with a bunch of middle aged women, and they talk about classic lit

Theater Kid (gay)

Good with kids, reluctantly

Has freckles

Hair is caused by Marie Antoinette syndrome

Struggled with body dysmorphia after being revived

Keeps all his receipts (they’re in a box in the kitchen) and is stingy with money

Tim Drake

Wears a Medical Identification bracelet for the spleen thing (it’s recommended guys I looked it up cause I’m normal)

Has acne

Chased Batman and Robin around with that damn camera (I fucking love this)

Has anxiety

Bisexual (not a HC but I thought I’d mention it)

Would eat the coffee grounds

Listens to video game osts

(Bring the skateboard back)

Damian

Strong nose

Just very strong features generally

Giggles, or full on cackles but there’s no In between

I think it’s be cute if he became an art therapist or a vet

Autistic

Cass

Cuts her own bangs, they look horrible<3

Lesbian

Tired to dye her hair once (with Steph and Babs)never again

Steph

Grew up in crime ally (idk where she lived so I choose to believe this- this could also be the truth, again I cannot remember rn)

Freckles

Butterfly Clips

Bisexual

Curly hair

Alfred

Had chased multiple people off of Wayne Manors premises with his shotgun ‘

Got second place in a chili cook off one time and still hasn’t recovered

Extra:

Dick and Jason are big into Taylor Swift, Jason because I think he’d like ballads/the lyrics in songs and Dick because he’s Dick

Selina Kyle actually likes the Robins, and her and Steph got along well

Jason and Steph have really thick Gotham accents, which I like to think is like a Jersey accent, Jason’s shows up more when he’s upset in any capacity, Steph’s is always there and was never trained out of her

Dick has this weird accent where it’s very clearly not anything American, but it’s not not American, and it’s because he moved so much and was around people woth so many different accents that his voice never settled on one

Damian talks to himself in Arabic- Jason knows a bit of it

Cass is a messy eater (this isn’t cannon is it?)

I think it’s be funny to imagine Tim, Cass and Steph going to High School together

Steph was that one girl in the Cookie Monster pjs in high school, and Tim was like this weird goth/skater kid

[sliipppy]

Because I am insane and sleep deprived, here is my attempt to make sense of the batfamily ages and what I believe they are currently at, with full explanations. Fair warning, although I have done like, legit research and have reasonings, some of these still fit into headcanons.

Bruce - 45

Dick - 28

Babs - 30

Jason - 23

Tim - 21

Steph - 22

Cass - 23

Damian - 14

Duke - 17

Bruce is the oldest, obviously. However, when he first adopts Dick he is still young himself. Hence why along with their father-son relationship, they sorta have a brotherly relationship. (Specfically in classic comics, Bruce would often refer to him as a brother. ) I like how it complicates their relationship and how it shows he wasn't really ready to nessicarily handle a child. I like to hc that he got adopted at 8, which would make Bruce 25 when he adopted him.

It was difficult to settle on this age because the age in which Dick became Robin has been changed so many times. Originally, he was 7. New Teen Titans says he was 8. Other comics say he was 10, 12, and even 15. I feel like most people say 8, and for the sake of my own agenda, I'm saying 8, and you can not stop me.

I think 28 is a good age for Dick. Babs similarly should be around his age as they grew up together (at least in newer canon since she used to be quite a bit older.), but she's always been portrayed as older even when around her age, and to kinda account for the weirdness surrounding her age I put her as 30. She becomes Batgirl at 18, and likely becomes Oracle when she's in her 20s, probably around 23.

Batman tells Cass multiple times in Batgirl 2000 that she and Jason were the same age, so that makes it easier to rule the two together. Addiontally, Cass, Steph, and Tim are all around the same age range, Cass being the oldest, so that makes things easier too. Cass starts operating as Batgirl at 18 which would make Tim around 16 when she takes the cowl. This works since Tim became Robin at around 13 and he had been Robin for a good amount of time before Cass became Batgirl. I think it's a litttle longer than I'd like. But whatever. I was considering ignoring canon and saying he becomes Robin at 14, because I think 2 years as Robin before Cass rather than 3 is more fitting but whatever. It does fit since Tim was introduced way earlier than Cass, however real time doesn't really affect these ages. Anyways, big sister Cass supremacy I think people forget she's one of the oldest. I think she might have been de-aged to be around Tim's age but FUCK that she was originally Jason's age and this is my headcanon and I like to thing N52 didn't fuck everything up in my happy Tumblr space.

We know Steph is 1 year older than Tim because she's a freshman in college during Batgirl 2009, and he's a high-school dropout in Red Robin 2009 as he searches for Bruce. Stephanie becomes Spoiler at 15, and Robin at 16. She comes back when she's around 17-18. This lands our 2000s trio with ages at 23(Cass), 22(Steph), and 21(Tim).

Jason is a mess. At least I thought he would be, but it actually turned out kinda perfect. We know Jason and Cass are the same age, so he's at 23 with her. He becomes Robin at 12, and dies at 15. He comes back as Red Hood at 18 and was dead for around 3 years. Jason Todd is 18 when he comes back to life because right before War Games, Bruce takes Cass to Jason's grave, on his 18th birthday!!! and of course the event that acts as a sort of aftermath to War Games is Under the Red Hood so Jason is 18 when he first becomes Red Hood. Cass is still a fairly new character when UTRH happens, so i think her being 18-19 when he comes back fits well. Tim being around 16 kinda fits nice too as hes around the same age as Jason when he died. I think Steph being so close in age also helps since so many parallels are drawn between the two.

Detective Comics #790

Duke is still a teenager, and he is regarded to be one of the youngest bats, but still quite a bit older than Damian. In We are Robin, Duke is 16, as shown in the who are the robins bonus art. He is still a newer character and hasn't been Signal for long. I assume that by the time Batman and the Signal rolls around, he's 17 and is still currently 17.

We are Robin #4

I'm pretty sure Damian was 14 in Robin (2021) but I could be wrong it's been a while since I've read it and I never finished it so idk if he ever aged since then. He became Robin at 10, so in those 4 years, he's obviously grown and matured a lot, but I mean, who doesn't those are formative years. I was gonna bump him up to 15. However, this doesn't work. He is supposed to be 10 while Tim is 17. (Babs says he's ten during Batgirl 2009, and we established Tim is 17 during this.) To keep it consistent with the others, I'm keeping Damian at 14.

Batgirl 2009 #17

Feel free to correct anything I said here if it's incorrect. I am not perfect nor all-knowing. Also I'm horrible with math and numbers so I probably fucked something up here so feel free to make fun of me for that. Or you can make fun of the issues I have below.

Issues :

Dick can't be Robin at 8 if I stick with these ages because that would mean at the time Tim is 1 which means he wouldn't even be able to remember the show which means he would never be Robin.

I would've liked Bruce to be a little younger when first taking Dick in, but also I think Bruce is at his best when he's a middle aged man and I didn't want him to be below 45 because I wanted him to be on his late 40's.

It's hard to characterized Duke after We Are Robin because he's supposed to he a teenager, however he was 16 in We Are Robin and it feels like he should have been Signal for a bit longer than that. This isn't as big of a deal, because I still think it's believable for him to have only been signal for about a year, and it's mainly just DC inconsistency, but it still bugs me.

Damian's entire age is sorta messy and there's definitely issues with it lol.

I think Cass' age is around the same as Tim's post 52 to fit with him since their the same generation. But i chose to ignore that, and you can't stop me I choose what canon I want.

ヽ(o´3`o)ﾉ

Anyways, if you've read all of this, I fear you might be a little crazy. However, thank you!!!!!! Feel free to like leave your own opinion/headcanons. I LOVE hearing them. Thank you! Bye!

[celaenaeiln]

Batgirl/Nightwing Barbara Gordon and Dick Grayson is literally the worst. Even worse that there are people who ship both Oracle/Nightwing and Batgirl/Nightwing when like their personalities are completely different, it feels like people are willing to ship them together just because they are Dick and Babs.

Honestly I feel like it’s unfair to talk about Batgirl/Nightwing because I feel like the majority of people agree that Oracle/Nightwing is better but I wouldn’t say I like it much either. There are some good panels between them but honestly it always felt more friendly like the thing that always irked me about them is that there will we or won’t we is so tiring, especially when you have so many other couples who have valid reasons for being star crossed, their arguments and fears always felt juvenile and annoying and then when they are together there is something that just feels off in their dialogue or tone of the ways things are written for both characters. There’s also this thing that shippers do where they make both characters finding a home in each other or being each others safety net which doesn’t really feel true to their characters because their are so many other characters that played a bigger role in Dick’s and Barbara’s life compared to what role Dick and Barbara had in each others lives (this is why I also hate the retcon that they were childhood friends because they weren’t! They didn’t grow up together!) And I don’t care about the age gap, like people can meet as adults and develop feelings for each other but like it makes no sense to me what they would see in each other that makes those feelings go from friendship to romance other then it just does. Like all the skills they can do other characters can also do and a lot of their character traits that they have other characters have as well, like what makes these two characters look at each other and desire the other. That chemistry and desire has always been lacking for me when they are together. Like it feels like just two Barbie dolls being smashed together with writing telling me I have to like them together meanwhile I’m just scratching my head.

You talked a lot about Dick but honestly there are many things that he has done that makes me wonder why Babs would want him.

It’s sad because Dick and Babs are such cool characters but when they are together I’m so bored!!!! Barbara deserves an interesting love interest and a love interest that can be just as complicated and messy as she!

"it feels like just two Barbie dolls being smashed together with writing telling me I have to like them together meanwhile I’m just scratching my head."

OMG LITERALLY I'VE SAID THE EXACT THING ALMOST WORD FOR WORD IN ANOTHER POST.

Honestly everything you said is so true.

There's physically no possible way to like both Oracle and Batgirl and still respect the Dick and Barbara. I'm not a big fan of Oracle/Nightwing either but I like them much, much more than Batgirl/Nighwing.

The safety net thing is the biggest crutch for Dickbabs. DC is trying to push them as if they'll always catch each other but that's only true in the physical sense like literally grab the other out of mid-air. Emotionally the wishy-washy behavior is tiring and emotionally draining and neither of them come out of it happy.

It makes me mad when DC has Dick claim that Barbara is Dick's best friend

Wally's stewing moodily on Dick's couch when he heard. He'll probably be like "I made you best man at my wedding and you calling her your best friend?"

The Flash (1987) Issue #142

Dick'll be like "W

Wally...I swear-"

Wally: "I made you best man! TWICE!!"

Not to mention, Dick and Barbara before the retcon didn't even know each other's superhero identities! I think it might've been the Legends of the Dark Knight comic but Dick's hanging out with his friends when he runs away to the bathroom with Congresswoman Gordon enters the place because "Robin and Dick Grayson can't be seen in the same place!" Barbara also says something in her point of view when they're fighting crime.

EXACTLY!! They do their best work separately. But together their personalities are an awful combo and it really makes me mad.

Yeah, I know I'm biased towards Dick but the reason I took Dick's side is because while Dick may have done things to Barbara, the majority of the transgressions are against him in their relationship. I don't know DC writers constantly nerf him when they're together or why they write Barbara so awful in a relationship when she's fine otherwise. The only thing I know that was wrong from her perspective is during that Devin Grayson scene. But that's just one of the worst writings of his character that I've seen (post).

Barbara deserves someone like Jason Bard

Batgirl (2016) Issue #42

Someone she can save and whose skillset won't be overlapping. Someone she can be strong with and will let themselves be commanded without it weakening them. Someone she doesn't have to feel like she's fighting the world over to call hers.

Jason Bard was perfect, sweet, good-looking, and smart for her. He even described him as complicated as a trait she loves about him.

Barbara definitely needs someone who isn't Dick and Dick needs someone who isn't Barbara so that way both their skills and personalities can shine.

[dailycass-cain]

Birds of Prey #7-8 is a neat little two-issue arc that had a lot of cute Cass stuff sprinkled throughout. So here are my thoughts (at last for #7) on the two issues.

I gotta say one surprising improvement is well, everyone gets more moments sprinkled throughout the two issues.

Then say one per issue. That and we get the members who came back with this issue bonding/training Sin/Megaera. That's where Cass comes in...

I love that the introduction for Cass is side by side with Barda (since their growing bond has been a major fun selling point of the series).

This is the (outside of Batman: Wayne Family Adventures and Batgirls) that Cass does normal things like going laser questing.

It's obvious everyone is having fun here, but also trying to gauge Sin's skills both as a combatant and in her new powerset.

I do like that writer Kelly Thompson brings back Cass being a fighting teacher.

It's something Batgirls gave us (though not the first with Cass teaching Steph), but then the little Nightwing backup again gave us it with Cass training with Dick.

I always love this aspect of Cass helping her comrades get better and her being a teacher. Just makes that moment in Scott Snyder/James Tynion IV JL run all the sweeter. That folks SHOULD come to Cass for help in their fighting prowess.

If there's any nitpick, I kind of want for Thompson to bring up Sin being raised to be the next Shiva. Like, technically it's an aspect somewhat overlooked in the run so far surprisingly (save in Cass joining the cause).

But I get "the why" Thompson hasn't dug into it yet. This is a two-issue arc, and it's gotta introduce our newest members, Vixen and Babs. And it's just that a "nit-pick".

I just hope Thompson is given the chance to eventually dig into that aspect.

Though in a way, she already is as all three ladies were born to be weapons but chose a different path. The fact they're just having fun but also being mentors to Sin is neat.

But yeah the other section for Cass this issue leads us to the moment me and others have been using and gushing over the last month. Mari gives Cass choices on wearing lingerie (if you're very very quiet you can hear Stephanie Brown still crying not appearing here and instead in another book.).

This moment really feels like Thompson course-correcting an aged badly moment from Batgirl Vol. 1 #39 with Babs accidentally making Cass wear a one-piece and she feels bad.

I think the fault isn't on Horrocks more per se the "product of the time" and WHO was slowly coming into power at DC around then.

Plus the actual end message in Batgirl #41 works quite well. With Cass figuring things out thanks to Kon (and aliens).

The moment over in BoP is just a page but artist Javier Pina captures SOOO much in the exchanges between Mari and Cass.

Just between the glances, you can tell Mari fully understands more and is more open to figuring out the common ground link that'll work for Cass.

I mean just look at these reactions. They say so many things and are just perfect moments for Cass (which is why I will be using these like crazy).

And of course, the piece Mari picks for Cass is just absolutely stunning and yeah perfectly works for the character.

I would love a creator's commentary on this how they chose each look for each Bird.

So yeah #7 was a great continuation of the plot with #8 wrapping the arc up, but setting it up for the next big thing for our Birds.

#8 began with bringing back someone I thought we'd never see with Batgirls ending last June, Detective Brooks.

I mean he isn't fully name-dropped but those who read Batgirls are in "the know" and it's nice continuity by Thompson in Brooks continuing his partnership with Oracle.

Even though I didn't notice him really doing much after the intro.

So let's get to the crux of this issue with it pertains to Cass.

Cass somehow flying around throwing batarangs (I'm not even gonna wanna answer where she was storing those) and fighting in high heels (just again doing a better job of it than in Batgirl #45).

I know everyone's eyes were on Barda in the fight, but you know where mine were. So yeah it was an interesting detail of Cass doing that, along with being the only Bird keeping her mask on.

Again this is a nice little touch because it shows Cass maturing and actually keeping a dual identity. Something that was quite a problem for her in Batgirl Vol. 1 at times (and some can say Tynion's Tec Knights run too).

If there's any negative (but I digress again minor nitpick) is how quickly Babs is ensnared by the mysterious force trying to end her (but #7 did showcase how easily Mari was swayed).

Anyhoot this was a fun little two-part arc and I'm really curious where the comic goes from here. Each Bird got a good moment and really the only downside was my minor nitpicks.

Birds of Prey continues to be a REAL fun series and I really do enjoy Thompson's Cass. I'm really curious given what we'll get with the character in the upcoming issues given the premise seems to be in the mind of each Bird.

[rpking99]

Why do people not like Bruce X Babs?

Okay so there are a few reasons

One- the age difference

Two- he is "like a father" to her

Three- he and Jim are best friends, she's his best friends daughter

Four- the power imbalance

Five- she dates Dick

Those are the main reasons people dislike the ship.... Now let me break this down

One:

When Babs was introduced, she was closer to Bruce's age than Dick's. She was an adult, she even became a senitor. And Dick was still around 12 or so, she baby sat for him

Over the years Babs has been deaged each reboot, slash whenever they feel like, which has pushed her and Dick closer in age range and broadened the gap between her and Bruce.

So the age thing was never an issue for me because... She was supposed to be closer to Bruce's age. An adult

Two:

No. No he is not.

Again, the age thing. Second, just because it's the BatFamily does not mean she held a daughter stance. She was basically the neighbours friend.

Also, Babs is always more than willing to call Bruce out on his bs

Three;

The is one I kinda get.

Like bit of a dick move. Although that does not stop Babeabda from having a CRUSH on him. Liking Bruce.

Jim is the only other character who was there form issue one, during Batman's first appearance ever in Detective Comics.

But Jim's age constantly flips. And he was old enough to have a daughter near Bruce's age.

Not THAT bad, imo

Four:

Again, kinda see this one.

Batman is the centre of Gotham's stories. He's the boss. So on and so forth

But at the same time.... Batgirl is her own thing

It's always been the case

Robin is Batman's partner and side kick. His lightly shadow

But the mantle of Batgirl has been that of an independent held who shares the mask. Not Batman's equal, but not working for him either

Five:

Again, look at the age thing. And Babs only started being into Dick in the late 90's/early 2000's

[weekend-conspiracy-theorist]

ngl though, my personal ideal reverse robins scenario (circa bruce in the timestream era) is batman cass with robin dick--if you want to mirror the initial "bruce isn't thrilled about the new child in his house" dynamic on damian's arrival, cass is the one at the circus that night. but she doesn't watch the graysons die--she watches their son watch them die, sees and feels his grief as viscerally as her own, and swoops into action as black bat... and brings a child home with her. she's always been his batman 🥺 ANYWAY the two of them together as a batman-robin duo is insane. two extreme prodigies with preternatural control and understanding of their bodies, their team up moves would be bonkers. I think dick would idolize cass to extremes but struggle with how she just shuts him down regarding his desire for vengeance on his parents' killer rather than really talking him through it.

damian is and stays nightwing when bruce dies, obviously, although while not quite "battle of the cowl" levels he and cass definitely have a knock down drag out verbal argument about it. so he spends a lot of this era sulking in blüdhaven and working with the titans, who include jon kent, yara flor, and irey west. (how is irey here when her dad is a little baby like dick? idk, speedster timestream shenanigans. bart's furious at her for stealing his future time traveller schtick. or maybe the speedster for damian's era could be avery or ace instead? actually yeah, reversing age on the two wallaces makes much more sense lol. anyway.)

duke upgrades from robin to signal and goes haring off across the globe to track bruce through the timestream (possibly taking spoiler!jason with him?). he (and the rest of the robin gang) had taken up the cause in the wake of steph's (and tim's, more on that later) death, when bruce is spiralling and gotham still needs a light ✨ they're so determined that even getting on batman's badside can't stop them, and finally they wear him down. duke (who knows bruce wayne is batman) is the one bruce thinks of as robin, but riko izzy and the gang are still around. (then jason shows up in purple, and he's inducted into the gang for months before bruce finds out there's ANOTHER teenage vigilante running around.)

tim is an oracle equivalent, but this is the one identity I would actually change the name of; I don't know what I would make it, but oracle specifically is deeply connected to babs for me and I'd like to leave it open for her to take up later. (robin IS deeply connected to dick but it's also been given connections to some of the other robins over the years, so I don't think it's unreasonable to keep it in an au like this, especially for how iconic it is. dick of course still gets a really heartbreaking scene connecting this new hero name back to his mother's nickname for him.) (batgirl is open at this point in and time and babs does hit the streets first on her own and then taken under cass's wing while bruce is dead, obviously.) tim doesn't have babs's talent and ability for being a living information nexus but he does have the tech knowledge and the tactical knowledge to still take on a ~big brother~ style hero persona and run a team a la the birds of prey (I would also not actually make them BoP; I would pull the rest of core four young justice + others he pulls in for various jobs); tim's number one advantage as a hero has always been network building and so I would play off that as much as his tech skill. a la steph's faked death in canon, tim's civilian persona is fake dead in this au, and I lean towards making tim an amputee rather than parapalegic, to facilitate interesting conversations between him and babs down the line after she's paralyzed, about what it means to be a disabled hero and how their situations compare and differ.

when steph gets resurrected and eventually takes on the red hood persona, she doesn't know tim is actually alive, because that's juicy. and extra fodder in her vendetta against bruce. tim starts working with the red hood before either him or steph knows who the other is. yes, they have a weird agressive flirtation going on. yes, it only gets worse once they find out. (yes, tim blows up at bruce when he finds out bruce has known/suspected the red hood's identity for a while.) yes, duke, jason, and dick fucking hate working with the two of them because it's super embarassing to listen to their older brother flirt with a mass murderer.

oh, and I'd make charlie gage-radcliffe the bette kane bat-girl equivalent who's like, relatively removed from all of this but also knew and worked with damian when he was a baby robin and has all of the good dirt and they lowkey hate each other but in a, like, frenemies way

[technarchussy]

I’m not a BruceBabs shipper but people who get so scandalized by it or any other non-DickBabs ships are so annoying. And it’s usually Oracle fans who think the only people only like something else is because they are anti Babs. Babs used to be married to Bruce in the Superman universe and has even dated Clark Kent. They were literally only 3-4 years apart compared to Barbara and Dick who are 6-7 years apart and Barbara was literally older than Talia al Ghul at one point. DickBabs always is held to like this moral standard but honestly to me it’s like the writers settled for the the most boring and safest option which sucks because I wish that the one canonically disabled wheelchair user that DC has would have had a grand romance but yet… like it grates on me that when fans talk about reasons to like DickBabs it is because it’s a disabled woman in a relationship but like she would be a disabled woman in a relationship in whatever relationship she was in because she is a disabled woman. I don’t care for DickBabs and I honestly don’t even care for the age gap like let Babs have a younger guy and have fun, but the ship itself is just boring to me. Anybody else but that please.

i think the biggest mistake was to downgrade babs down to a dick’s contemporary when there were a hundred other ways (albeit none of them even slightly appropriate 😂) to get to the dickbabs agenda, but like, none of it was leveraged…. it’s always irked me, personally, bc there was nothing cookie cutter about their romance to begin with, and there were multiple layers of complexity that didn’t directly involve bruce getting between them, but i feel like in the current era, most of what made them dickbabs even remotely complex was straight up eliminated and or sterilized…. For what? for dick and barbara to be each other’s halal soulmate? forgive my language, but their relarionship’s entire conception was haram 😂 erasing and downplaying what made their relationship ‘theirs’ does nothing but diminish their personal histories and the fact that they each literally brought out the worst in each other at times.

and it’s not to say either are or were perfect. they are not. they are so fucked up i have to actually laugh bc they are both my mentally ill babus and i truly wish dc creative slt could SEE that they can be their best weirdo selves WITHOUT falling into the trap of reducing them to the kind of couple conservatives love to tout as “true love” when we know the only true love in dc comics is kon el and bart allen. also, break dickbabs up 5ever!

and ur absolutely right that babs deserves her fun! personally, i think brubabs is the answer to freeing selina kyle from all the straight woman allegations (i would like her to peacefully fuck other men abd women for at least ten years without hearing a single word about broose) and barbara from the dick-is-your-soulmate garbage. reality is that dickbabs has been as bust as dickkory for the last nine million years (as much as i love dickkory muah muah). one of my biggest critiques of dc comics writing is that motherfuckers cant commit to a character development point for their life. we were over both dickkory and dickbabs in 2010. not bc people didn’t enjoy their ships, but bc the writing staffs went out of their way to slander every single character. i recently saw a post that dickkory only looks good in elseworlds stories cuz the main comic runs fucked his ass UP. and i agree! the same should be applied to dickbabs, bc they lost their appeal eons ago as well. they want nightwing’s ass ate so damn bad, they need to get him a new girlfriend. a boyfriend, even! but leave babs and kory out of it 😭😭😭

Inshallah, hopefully dc creative SLT will understand the great fuckup they’re committing these days. if i cant get brubabs, i would like to see barbara go on a lil date with one of the many beautiful men and women in gotham. if she slept with selina, i would support it.

[geekthefreakout]

What are some of your favorite characters that are considered part of the Batfamily?

I agree with everything you have said. Jason and Babs have an interesting chemistry that I’ll admit they have when they are written together. Batman Eternal really made them an official romantic thing in canon and the writers then weren’t trying to even do it, they just happened to write them together and realized they actually really enjoyed writing their interactions and saw the possibilities there and left it open for other writers to explore if they choose to.

If I remember correctly in the Arkham verse wasn’t Babs only married to Tim. There really wasn’t anything romantic between them but in title only, right? That’s what made it really forced and random.

With Bruce yeah it was icky but Timm’s love of that ship probably came from how older comics did try to make Bruce and Barbara a thing but it not catching on. Barbara was originally created to be a love interest for Bruce but audience didn’t care much for it and then it just changed to a partnership. But back then Bruce and Clark were closer in age with Babs than her and the first Robin.

My top Batfam members are Cass, Tim and Jason, I connect with them the most (that's my daddy issues showing smh). Dick and Dami aren't as personal to me, but I still love them. Steph is another gem, but I feel like she lost some of her heart post-Flashpoint and is still recovering from it. Then of course there's Alfred who I miss dearly. But I love everyone.

I am not really attached to Luke, Helena, or Bette, but I don't dislike them. I just don't miss them when they aren't around.

For Jason and Babs, I agree. There's something interesting there. A crush on his part, developing and conflicting feelings on her part. The way that they might both acknowledge the feelings on some level but one of them always pulls away because they know it's not a good idea... With the right writer, it's quite compelling... Though I do prefer Babs with Dick. I'm a dirty JayRoy shipper because I read RHATO very early on in my comic booking career.

Arkham verse made some weird choices with times, ages, and relationships. And Bruce Timm... Has a Thing. But all of these verses are fun in their ways and have great stuff going for them even with the weirdness.

[zorilleerrant]

people always say Dick is an eldest daughter, but like... he's just an adult child. the relationship adult children have with their younger (especially much younger siblings) just tends to be like that if they have high contact. that's not the same thing as expecting a child to raise the other children while the parents swan off.

Harper's definitely an eldest daughter. Babs you can argue is an eldest daughter, altho that depends on the age difference between her and JJ. you could convince me Cass was an eldest daughter, and she was in charge of her training group, just because that makes more sense logistically than what canon shows, but it seems more likely some of the older cadets would take care of her. Steph's got the right personality for it but you'd have to give her neighborhood children to be responsible for, so it would involve constructing a lot of side characters. Duke has a similar disposition, but the responsibility would presumably go to girls in his neighborhood instead. Jason, with less community support, could definitely be in that situation. Mara's story also suggests she's an eldest daughter, not only to Damian but to the other children in the League.

Dickie's just an adult. with responsibilities he might not choose to have, sure - altho let's not forget how fast he tried to adopt those same kids, let's not kid ourselves - but he's just acting as an adult member of a large family, not a parentized child.

[psychemochanight]

Okay!

First of all, this is going to be different from the Robins, because I didn't analyze them in general as characters, but only in their role as Robin.

This is mainly due to the habit of labeling them in very close roles, something that even DC did, and I will never forgive. These comparisons of "he's the smart one, he's the cool one, etc... but who am I?"... This was stupid af.

Whatever... Let's start with this.

Obviously these characters don't need a "label" to separate them, but I'll give a little description anyway about how I see each one... More or less.

Alfred: the character that the fandom never forgets, but never fully remembers.

Alfred is a key character in Bruce's story, and consequently, he also has a great impact on the lives of the other members of the family.

However, the fandom, and often the writers, forget that Alfred was never and never will be a purely good character.

People forget that Alfred was also cold, distant, and even capable of abandoning his family.

However, this doesn't make him a bad character, I don't even think it makes him a bad person. It just makes him... a human.

Alfred helped Bruce, but he could never guide him to healing. He helped him survive, even live, but always bleeding.

It was with the children that he himself became softer and learned to heal himself in order to heal others.

A great character, with many shades of gray in his existence, some darker than everyone remembers, but still, one of the most iconic to all the times.

You can't just think about Batman without think about Alfred.

Barbara: one of DC's biggest fails, all because of a romance.

Before anyone jumps on me, I'm not saying Babs' existence is a flaw at all.

Barbara, Batgirl, and then Oracle, was probably one of the best introduced characters in the Batman fray. Barbara didn't exactly feel like an out-of-place character, even though she seemed to simply come in as a character who was meant to be a counterpart to the dynamic duo.

To begin with, Barbara wasn't even close to Dick's age at the time, she was more in between Bruce and Dick's age, which gave him an air of maturity that Dick had not yet fully developed, but a youthful air that Bruce had already lost.

As Oracle, this seemed like the role the character was always meant to be created for. She was just in the right place (in my opinion). And if she had been even more independent like Oracle, she would probably be one of the most dangerous characters out there. In our digital age, anyone would notice the true power behind Oracle.

What happened? She was increasingly reduced to simply being Dick's partner.

And before anyone tells me about her solo moments, I know, I know, don't worry.

I don't mean that she only appears as a character in Dick's life, but how the fandom tends to reduce her. If you learn about Barbara through fandom (as many people are introduced to this universe), you wouldn't think of her as a character in her own right. Most of this people don't even know, for example, about her relationship with Cass.

And I still think that if they hadn't changed her age, if they hadn't forced her to be a partner for Dick, the character herself would be much more defined in her own role. If she was just Oracle, and she wasn't returned to her role within the Bat-Family and she expanded her abilities further, it would be much better and complete.

Cassandra: the only heir to the mantle of Batman.

One of the most forgotten characters by the fandom, but who deserves as much recognition as any other member of the family... Although some of her fans need to stop deifying her.

Cass is one of the most interesting characters. Not only is she one of the most skilled in DC, but she is also one of the characters who, in terms of sense of justice and morality, she is probably one of the most consistent. She probably surpasses Batman in her sense of justice, or she will if they continue to develop her in a good way. The fact that she voluntarily rejected her "destiny" is a clear sign of that.

She is not moved by revenge, but by justice. And honestly, I think she's the only one who should truly take the place that Bruce will leave at some point. Dick doesn't want it, and while some may think about Tim, I feel like he should go his own way, just like Damian. And even if Dick were willing, the place has to be Cass's, I have no doubts about that.

I can't say too much about Cass because she's not one of the characters I know the most, but from what I've seen of her, I feel like she's both underrated and overrated, depending on which side of the fandom you look at. If you really want to know her well, you don't have to look at the fandom, not even at her fans, because most of them distort the character.

Duke: the fresh air of the batfamily.

I'm just getting to know Duke, but I swear this is how he feels: a breath of fresh air.

Not only because he's different as the first daytime hero, or one of the few meta-humans who get involved with the batfamily... But in itself the fact that he, although he "took Robin's place"... He never wanted to be Robin.

The fandom also mischaracterizes him at times, making him out to be the "normal" one in the family... (No one in this business can be normal), but still, so far, he is one of the characters that I like the most because of the way his personality is developing. It has a good balance in my opinion, neither all tragedy, nor all pink colored.

If I knew him better I would like to say more about him, but I don't want to come here and make things up and end up giving a false opinion about him... So that's it.

I'm going to be honest, I don't know if you're talking about Selina or Helena-

If you're talking about Selina, I don't have much to say other than DC seriously needs to improve their consistency when it comes to character writing... Seriously.

If you're talking about Helena, I honestly don't remember practically anything about her, I knew her when I was a child, but I haven't seen anything about her since and anything I would be saying is an awful lie.

Harley: one of the few times DC did something nice for a female character.

I'm not going to go into too much detail about her, honestly.

But, one of the best decisions DC could have made was to keep her away from the Joker. Like, they just do the right thing.

I love the moments where she collaborates with any of the bats, although her writing isn't always the best... (I will forever ignore the scene between her and Nightwing in that animation.)

I like seeing her behave more like an antihero than a villain much more than seeing her sticking to the Joker.

And I love her relationship with Ivy.

Talia: victim of circumstances and writers.

I never really tried to get into Talia's story, I know it, but not well enough.

Still, even just knowing things here and there, one can realize that there are writers who genuinely seem to hate her.

I'm not going to give opinions on whether I think she's a good person or not, nor am I going to say whether I like her or not. I prefer to keep that to myself because I feel that my opinion remains incomplete.

Sorry, I know I didn't really respond, like, about all the characters, but I really didn't want to say something that could be wrong just because I don't know the character... Even now I think I could have done that-

But, that's all, I think-

I know you hate labels on them, but if you HAD to label the Robins, how would you do it?

The first one, the second one, the third one...

Ok, out of jokes-

Dick: The first one.

With all that this implies: Dick being the one who founded the bases to follow, the one who made the mistakes that he later taught to correct, the one who saw the empty spaces that others later filled. The first one who had to be everything and learn on his own.

Jason: the DC experiment.

DC DIDN'T know how to deal with Dick's exit as Robin, it's like they never really planned on letting him out, but it happened. Jason became a character of trial and error.

At first he was an exact copy of Grayson, since the first one was successful... But obviously the fans didn't want a Dick Grayson with another name. So what did they do? They gave it a twist and did the opposite... It doesn't work well either.

And instead of continuing to try (even though Jason already had a fan base by that point), they chose to "get rid of" the character and then revive him as a "blank canvas."

A character who had a lot of potential, but they didn't know how to handle him and now the most relevant thing about him is his death because DC doesn't know how to give him continuity.

Tim: the robin of the fans for the fans.

Tim is often referred to as a fandom self-insert, and honestly, it's understandable why.

It's the Robin that gave off vibes similar to the original that was the most loved at the time, but at the same time, had real characteristics that fans could identify with.

Tim is the one with the most "normal" story, he is the one who could be any civilian, the one who seems like he wasn't meant to be, but he was.

In my opinion, the one who best balanced his personality as Robin and as a civilian.

(And that the fandom decides to totally ignore haha </3)

Although DC needs to learn to let go of Tim and let him grow. At this point I think half of the fandom doesn't even know how old he is or what hero he is.

Steph: the Robin who deserves better.

I don't just mean story-wise, obviously none of the characters deserved the shit they suffered and deserve a better life... I mean in general.

The real forgotten Robin is Steph, not Tim, and I'm not going to discuss it with anyone.

They (DC) keep writing the same story over and over again, rewriting the other Robins' history (especially Dick), but never giving us more about Steph.

Give my girl her story. Just like Jason, she has so much potential, give her her moment to shine!

(although, here I have to open parentheses for this: Steph has a much more consistent story than Jason, her role is more defined, but it feels outdated at this point. And, in any case, I feel like Steph shouldn't even really be a "bat", but rather someone independent... Or similar to Nightwing at least, who doesn't wear a bat on his suit).

Damian: the one who deserves not to be Robin.

Let me clarify: "the one who deserves not to be Robin", not "the one who does not deserve to be Robin".

Damian needed to be Robin, it was the key point in his development and I think Dick did the right thing by giving him the role of Robin...

But I feel that he deserves to stop being Robin too.

I think he's going to stop being Robin? No, not with DC writing him. DC has a history of resetting their characters to a certain point, they always bring them back. I don't think they're going to release Damian soon.

But while every character deserves to have a life outside of being heroes, I feel like Damian deserves it the most out of all of them.

The others are adults who have already chosen this, but Damian is a child, a teenager by now... And letting him be something more than the one who was created to be in the underworld, I feel that is the best for him.

I think he should stop being a vigilante? I'm not that sure, but that his life should definitely NOT revolve around that.

"The mission" should not be HIS mission.

So... Yeah, that.

I'm not sure if this makes sense to you tho-