#see: 90s nightwing for example

[kara-zor-els]

I feel like a lot of older comic book fans underestimate how bad art can turn people away from a comic, and not just in the "that's not how a human woman looks like" way

[celaenaeiln]

Random question: what are your thoughts on Dick's and Wally's friendship?

They're one of the greatest friendships in DC and that's canon

Flash Plus

Idk about you, but I believe that if you do annual roadtrips with your best friend just because you love spending time with them, then you can't possibly be closer than them.

Actually their friendship is so special that they have an entire comic just dedicated to the two of them being friends. That's how close they are - "Flash Plus".

Wally always covers for Dick

Nightwing (1996) Issue #73

"Go over to best friend's apartment and pretend to hurl."

For sure they're childhood best friends. The ones that grow up together and probably took baths together but still sitting in a hot tub not even six feet apart because they're just that close.

What they call themselves:

Nightwing (1996)

They tell each other everything going on in their lives.

They're so close that Dick actually snuck Wally into the Batcave

The Flash (1987) Issue #210

And then Wally shit talks Batman just to make Dick feel better and gets caught

'LOOK AT THE WAY BRUCE LOOKS SO MAD. HE FULL ON HAS HIS HANDS ON HIS HIPS 😂😂😂 LOVE THAT

"*growl* *growl* keep talking. I dare you. *GROWL*"

Because while Dick acts as the world's emotional support human being, Wally acts as Dick's personal one. He always watches out for his best friend's emotional wellbeing.

For example, when Dick didn't want to reform the Titans, Wally explains why he brought it up. And why he's insisting on it.

"You need this."

The Titans (1999) Issue #1

"My mission is to keep you from turning into your guardian. Batman may be a loner, but you need a family around you." "You'd really join another team just so I could have a social life?"

Wally's personal mission in life is making sure Dick is happy, safe, and healthy.

He tells Dick secrets he NEVER tells anyone else

The Flash (1987) Issue #210

"I only told that story to one person. Dick Grayson...my best friend."

His greatest regret and sorrow is that he doesn't get to see Dick more often

If Wally had his way, Dick would be living with him and Linda since the day they got married.

The only times they fight is when Dick is being too self-destructive and won't listen to reason so Wally ends up getting mad.

When Barbara can't get through to Dick, she sends her failsafe to pick him up and knock some sense into him

Dick is literally depressed and wants to give up after he killed the Joker. He won't listen and so what does Barbara do?

Nightwing (1996) Issue #63

And thank god it works. Even if Dick won't listen to anyone, he'll listen to Wally.

Wally loves Dick an extreme amount.

"The Flash is disassembling an entire collapsed, burning building. He doesn't have super-strength. He's just working as fast as he can. He'll do whatever it takes to get to me."

"He heals fast, but he's probably broken his fingers several times..."

And Dick loves Wally just as much.

Nightwing (2016) Issue #90

"My best friend."

[7weaslesinacoat]

i keep seeing this and i saw another post saying something similar but it genuinely icks me so much when i see something like-

“insert character is actually a horrible person!” or “insert character is actually a good person!”

especially in comics, because first off-

these are fictional characters, i know we all love them- but they’re just placeholders with a name and personality that we tell made up stories about. they can’t be a piece of shit, because they aren’t anything, so don’t get so worked up.

second off when they DO come across that way, especially if the character is a protagonist or a “good guy”-

and then in one specific story or one timeline there is a dickhead version of them (batman is a great example, nightwing, talia al ghul- it happens so much in comics chat 😭) then i see so many fans or members of the community jump on the hate train for not just that characterization, but the character as a whole.

this also happens when said characters are given flaws to make them more realistic, talia al ghul is a huge victim of this (and usually MORE SO than most dc characters because she is subconsciously profiled all the time).

anywho, i see all these people dogpiling on a character even though 90% of the time that characterization is just a choice by the writer.

comic writers aren’t looking at protagonists and long standing characters and deciding “yeah they’ve actually been racist this whole time”, no, a couple writer made a stupid decision that got published. and the great thing about comics is that not everything you have to imagine as canon! not every iteration of batman is the batman that you love! and that’s ok, that doesn’t make a character bad.

and it definitely doesn’t excuse hating on fans of that character because your canon of that character doesn’t fit another’s.

(i feel like what we should be doing when discussing characterization is be aware that it is all taking place in comic books- like “oh my god i hate all star batman” or “in canon deathstrokes done some weird shit” instead of saying “i hate batman.” “deathstroke is a pedo”—even though he kinda is—

because what about media where he’s an anti hero? and what about the millions of media where batman’s *not* a dick? if your evidence for your claim is specific, make a claim about the specific evidence, and not the masses of unrelated data)

[incorrectbatfam]

I h3ad cannon athat all the batfam members have had/are still in their emo/goth phases.

Example:

Bruce dressed as a bat and punches criminals at night (I also head cannon that he listens to the rolling stones and MCR)

Anyways thoughts?

Also what were the other batfam members emo/goth phases like?

Dick: He was hella neurotic in his late Robin/early Nightwing days. That plus his mullet and guitar tells me he probably tried to live out of a used van he bought for $700 after a fight with Bruce only to come home a week later when someone knocked on his window.

Jason: He's the theater/classic lit goth. When he was younger he would read by the glow of a candelabra even though the lights work perfectly fine. Post-resurrection, he graduates to the biker anarchist who has no problem launching a molotov at a CEO's mansion.

Tim: He's from the 90s. He's sitting in that Y2K grunge-emo-punk gray area where his playlist is a mix of the Clash, Nirvana, and Green Day. He's coloring his hair with Kool-Aid, playing with makeup, ripping his own clothes, and talking about new songs on AOL.

Damian: He's aiming for dark academia, but that's hard to pull off if you know what American schools look like. He annotates the margins of his books with notes he thinks are insightful but are actually just basic observations. Also he listens to Imagine Dragons.

Duke: This kid isn't emo or goth, he is a punk through and through. Sassing the cops? Jumping off a bridge? Leading a ragtag vigilante team? If he wanted to, I bet he can pull off a leather jacket with some homemade spikes while blasting Bad Brains and Death.

Cullen: Canonically, he watches anime and Supernatural, and I've made a lot of Tumblr references with him. He's definitely your quintessential 2010s emo nerd—Black Parade, fandoms, the whole shabang. He also definitely followed Dan and Phil.

Stephanie: She strikes me as the early 2000s pop-punker—think MySpace and Avril Lavigne. She probably had a Not Like Other Girls phase that she quickly grew out of. I can see her cutting posters out of magazines and sneaking her MP3 under an oversized hoodie.

Cassandra: She canonically listens to Killswitch Engage, so I like to imagine what she was like as a baby metalhead. Maybe she thrifted a Pantera shirt and chopped her hair with safety scissors. And at concerts she's absolutely up front when the wall of death happens.

Barbara: I think she dabbled in a little bit of everything without ever outwardly expressing it. Her playlist is all over the board, from softer rock to screamo. She also experimented with makeup a little, like black lipstick, and is more involved in the activism side of things.

Harper: She's definitely industrial punk with a huge emphasis on the DIY aspect of the subculture. She strings soda tabs into chains, turns old screws into boot spikes, and even learned to give herself tattoos. She also absolutely has a drawer full of patch pants.

Carrie: She's a TikTok e-girl, leaning into the pinks and purples along with black and white. She turns fishnet leggings into gloves and has a bunch of animal ear headbands. She also listens to Melanie Martinez and Tame Impala regardless of if they count as alternative.

Kate: Queer people play a huge role in the punk scene and vice versa. I can absolutely see Kate jamming out to an early Pansy Division track or searching places like Bandcamp to support smaller indie artists. Also she has a jacket that says "Nazi punks fuck off."

Alfred: Before punk and its subgenres, Alfred was canonically a delinquent and in that day, delinquency meant gelled-up hair and moving like Elvis. The hair didn't work out for him, but he was able to catch one of the first shows Buddy Holly played in London.

Selina: Alt cultures are based on not having much and working with what you got. Selina would use the five-finger discount at big-box stores and save her money to support small businesses. She also went around listening to free local rock shows on Fridays.

Bruce: He listened to the Rolling Stones before, but his first real intro to the scene was a handmade zine he found on the floor at school. From there, he explored more underground artists and took up journaling as a way to vent his feelings. And then: Batman.

[melodyatlas]

6, 9, 12 for the ask game

and bonus if you want, for the NSFW Alphabet, J, R, and W for Tim and maybe Slade? ❤️

6. Show us a bit of a WIP!

Each step Slade takes closer to the pair shows just how much Dick thinks he's going to free them when he gets close enough. Too bad, pretty bird. His fingers thread through Dick's shiny locks when he's within reach, first softly, a sweet reassurance that everything's going to be okay. Then he tightens his grip, tugging back a few inches, just to watch as it jerks Tim along with him. The matching yelps it pulls from the Bats is music to his ears, and he's sure they're both glaring at him from behind their white-out lenses. His lips curl up in a mean grin, “Hey, pretty bird. Looks like someone clipped your wings here.”

9. Write a recommendation of someone else's fic you enjoyed!

cut me open, take my heart - by Sandrine

of course my rec is gonna be a jaytim fic lmao, its so gooooooood, one of my faves! it's jason finding out that tim has some Feelings about him and knives and them playing around with that. the characterization of both of them is so good, and i rly like the authors voice and how they portray jason and tims dynamic

12. What's the funniest or craziest AU idea you've ever come up with?

oooh i actually dont rly come up with a lot of crazy aus? my birds of passage series has an alternate dimension where the bats are all genderswapped and a couple of them end up crossing into the main verse? but i dont think thats very far out there 😂

J) Jack off (masturbation headcanon)

Tim - i think tim is like, weirdly clinical about it, but also does it all the time lmao. need to fall asleep? jack off. stuck on a case? jack off. overwhelmed by all the WE work that he shouldn't actually have to deal with but does? jack off. he swears by it as a means to clear his head

Slade - tbh i don't have any headcanons for slade about this and when i tried to think on it more all that popped into my head was him pulling out creepy stalker photos of the titans from back when he was in that fued that he's just held onto for this specific purpose gsjgdkdbdkdn like just imagine a shot of dick in his nightwing suit taken from 4 blocks away with a shitty red target drawn over him, that's what slades using to get off and it works

R) Risk (are they game to experiment? do they take risks? etc)

Tim - yeah, so tim canonically made out with lynx on a rooftop and seeing as how he was still unsure if she was an undercover cop or actually running a gang, i definitely think he's up for risks. i also know that like openly sexual core four is highly fanon but cmon. they were a bunch of hormonal teenagers in stressful situations with little and then no adult supervision. they definitely blew off steam together. and you don't mess around with an Amazonian, a speedster, and an alien and NOT be game for experimentation lmao

Slade - slade is nothing but risk in bed babeeyyy, his wife shot him in the face and you can't tell me that he doesn't regularly have what they call hatesex with dick on the regular (it's not hatesex, it just makes them feel better to call it that), im just saying that kind of taste does not lend well to vanilla sex with no experimentation lmao

W) Wild card (a random headcanon for the character)

Tim - i think bc tim knows he can lie to bruce and get away with it and also got away with embezzling an entire batmobile so young he realized he could do Anything and get away with it, so i think he uses that for purposes that others might find questionable but he literally always has a reason, like for example "tim, why did you buy a chuck e cheese and hide it in the batarang budget?" "oh, we realized a bunch of members of the titans didnt ever get to experience having a birthday party there so i bought one, had it redesigned back to the old 90s aesthetic and then we marathoned parties for everyone so they could get it"

Numbered Ask Game

NSFW Alphabet Ask Game

[sing-me-under]

I love the way Marcus To draws Tim Drake in Red Robin. So iconic. But also, DCAU Timmy Todd’s hair is fun too.

I’ve been thinking about the idea of the Robins and identities, and I thought it would be funny if Gothamites wouldn’t know how many Robins there are because they change their hairstyles.

For example: everyone knows that the first Robin grew up to be Nightwing because he had the same side part for forever and also people saw him grow up.

But then Jason shows up, clearly a different, much smaller Robin. Then he dyed his (dark brownish red) hair black and has a growth spurt, and suddenly there’s probably another Robin, and that’s the Robin Joker brags about killing.

But there’s still Robin with a slightly similar middle-part hair style and countenance, and Two Face is so certain that Joker was just bullshitting. But Batman also looks at Tim in the mask and green shorts and can only see Jason, so Tim parts his hair to the side, opposite where Dick normally parts it, and slicks it so it stays put. Tim looks in the mirror and thinks that his parents would scold him for looking anything less than clean cut. Tim goes overseas to train with Shiva and comes back with an updated costume and hair style (and he’s taller than Jason was at 15) and that’s how people recognize Robin 4 (?).

Then Tim starts to fill into his own identity beyond that of being Jason’s replacement, and he gets to be himself with YJ and the Titans, so he stops slicking his hair to the side and lets it fall naturally. And that’s a new Robin right there. Or maybe he spikes his hair up 90s skateboard style, and that’s another Robin entirely.

There’s also a funny little thing where Cass wears the Robin suit for a few nights, and not a single person realizes that that’s a different person wearing the R even though her hair is down. (They think Robin just didn’t want to style his hair those days.)

And of course, there’s girl Robin. Everyone recognizes blonde girl Robin. She sounds exactly like Spoiler.

Then Robin (4 or 5???) comes back or maybe this is an entirely different Robin. Gothamites can’t seem to agree or disagree.

And of course, everyone knows when Stabby Robin comes onto the scene.

And then.

And then there’s like forty Robins and no one has any idea who is an official Robin as recognized by Batman or just some teenager starting their vigilante career.

I’m just saying though. No one knows for sure how many Robins there were. Sometimes, changing hairstyles is enough to pass as a different person, especially if there is no frame of reference.

[dceuheadcanons]

I've been asked to talk more about my "Bruce Wayne has OSDD-1B" post, so I will be doing just that!! I will elaborate on further details about each headmate in the future. Feel free to see my last post on this if you have not already.

So far I've noticed that there are at least five headmates. Batman, B, Brucie, Bruce Wayne, and Mr Wayne.

Batman started forming the night his parents were shot, and his memory also starts there. He cannot remember his childhood pre-ten. He's a protector of sorts, but he also holds the rage. He's the most intelligent of the bunch, what with being the "World's Greatest Detective" and all. He is slow to trust people, but he believes that there is good in everyone. That is why he does not kill. Though that wasn't originally the case, he saw the worst in everyone for a decade or so, his viewpoint changed when he took in Nightwing. Every part of him has patrolled as Batman, the cowl belonging to them all partially because of his obliviousness towards his disorder, but he is the one made to be Batman.

B is the father. He formed for the singular purpose of being a parent. None of the others were prepared for such a task. He has great care for his children, despite failing in places due to the awful example his own father set. He would kill for any one of them. He was the one that endeavoured to kill The Joker when Red Hood was murdered. He doesn't take kindly to anyone he loves being harmed.

Brucie is the playboy. Everyone knows that. He doesn't take much seriously, he flirts with everyone (of appropriate age) that he meets, he does drugs, and he's an alcoholic. But he's the one that's been around the "longest". He remembers his entire childhood. He deals with his grief and trauma with hypersexuality and substance abuse. He's the least honest of the bunch and absolutely hates people seeing him as sad or weak. But he commonly accompanies Batman on patrols. He's good with words and good with people, able to manipulate and redirect effortlessly. He's the one that goes on out-of-costume intel missions. He's the one fucking all his rogues! He has the lowest iq of the bunch, but he's still considered a genius by his score.

Bruce Wayne is the child. The child that "died in the alleyway with his parents". In systems, these are commonly called littles. They're used to cope with high stress situations, but he is never usually left alone. If left alone he's quiet, flinches at loud noises, distrusts adults, and will be willing to beat the shit out of anyone that disrespects his father's name. If you do manage to get him to trust you, he will talk about things that he liked in childhood. Pokémon, Sonic Underground, classical literature, etc. He was born in the 90s in my AU, similar to the newest movie. I will roughly outline my timeline in another post.

Mr Wayne is the business man. He does not respond to Bruce, as he both sees himself as above others and ISN'T Bruce. He's the only introject, and he's an introject of Thomas Wayne. He isn't mean or entirely self centered. He makes sure the employees of his company and all of the companies he owns are treated well. He pays for employees' family's education, rent, food, whatever they need. He has a LOT of money and he knows that as long as he keeps his businessess going and his employees happy, he won't ever go bankrupt. He uses that to help whoever he can, he donates large sums to charities, etc. He's commonly around at the same time Brucie is. He isn't allowed to be around at the same time Bruce Wayne (the little/child) is, though, due to the fact that their real father was abusive. He'd scare the kid.

[mzminola]

Trying to figure out why the fandom meme that Tim is misogynistic bothers me so much, beyond my usual kneejerk response to perceived inaccuracy, and I think the key is that it feels like fandom is lying to me.

Specifically, lying about nearly all the other characters.

That I am being taunted with some theoretical Less Sexist 90′s Comics that don’t actually exist.

Sexism is one of the reasons that I never bothered to seek out superhero comics when younger. Our town didn’t have a comics shop, which sure put a damper on it, but I didn’t bother looking for collected volumes when venturing into regular bookstores, or the occasional trip out of town to places with huge bookstores. I flipped through enough and heard enough chatter to know I didn’t want to put up with the sexism. Scans Daily on Livejournal sure had plenty of supporting examples.

Reading 1990′s & early 2000′s comics now, I can confirm this was the right choice on younger me’s part. There is a lot of sexism in that era, and unlike with prose books by a singular author, it’s much harder to ditch wholesale. I’ve got a lot more analytical reading under my belt now, so it’s easier to roll my eyes at the bullshit and focus on what is enjoyable than it used to be. From the later 2010′s comics I found at the library, things are improving, though still stumbling.

So yeah, Tim does sometimes say sexist crap. But as I devour comic after comic, so far, he isn’t saying or doing anything more sexist, more frequently, than any other character, including the gals. It’s almost like it’s a writing problem, not a character problem.

As far as I can tell, from what I’ve read, which includes all of Batgirl 2000, Young Justice 1998, and nearly half of Robin 1993, Tim is less sexist than the adult men he’s surrounded by, and no few of his fellow teenage boy heroes.

Maybe I’m missing something! But gender doesn’t seem to come into his treatment of Gotham vigilantes and YJ teammates? The most it comes up with his civilian peers is that, typical for the time period, girls are treated by the narrative & characters as potential romantic options and boys aren’t? Tim talks to Callie the same way he talks to Ives & Hudman? He and Ariana both make relationship mistakes, but in ways that are pretty normal for a 13-14 year old’s first romance?

So when the fandom keeps making ‘misogyny’ Tim’s distinguishing traits from the other Bats, or other YJ members or Titans, it implies that reading comics focused on other characters would have less sexism, but when I do read other comics, that’s not fucking TRUE.

Where are these magical less sexist Bat comics?

Who are these heroes fandom claims are less misogynistic?

Because it’s not Nightwing. It’s not anything Bruce takes center stage in. Barbara is fine in Batgirl 2000, but in other comics she’s written as cattily jealous and tears into other women. It’s not Stephanie, as we saw with Batgirl 2009′s treatment of Jordanna Spence.

Batgirl 2000 does pretty good, but that’s the only one I can think of, and fandom singling out Tim makes it sound like it should be all of the others.

Fandom likes to say Jason drinks his Respect Women Juice, but when I read Under the Red Hood and Lost Days, they felt about the same level as Tim’s comics. And I keep seeing examples from Jason’s Robin days of him admiring women or learning from them or teaming up, but I also get that from Tim’s comics.

Before he even had a long running solo, Tim’s Robin mini’s got a crossover with Huntress, in which he respects both her skills and her secrets, and argues with her about as much as he does with Bruce. Tim supports Cassie winning leadership of Young Justice, he supports Cissie’s decision to do what she felt was most responsible. He apologizes for avoiding Cass after finding her intimidating and goes on to work well with her.

I like Tim. I’m mostly enjoying his comics. They’ve got less sexism than I expected of the era they’re written in.

And I hate that fandom’s running meme about him makes it feel like everyone else is making a joke at my expense.

[cricketsintheaudience]

I'm getting married in less than a month and also need a distraction can you expound upon long hair dick greyson and what's up with that particular sartorial choice bc I keep seeing him on my dash and I'm obsessed with the concept

yes of COURSE I would love to. I’ve also seen that look getting popular again so I decided to dig up some sources, but frankly the history of it boils down to 90s edge (see also: superman) and a shift in character design to represent his burgeoning independence as nightwing.

also, congratulations!! best wishes!

firstly, I found this great post by northoftheroad with examples of all his hairstyles + valuable context:

secondly, a Watchtower Database video also combing through his hair history:

thirdly, a CBR article about a more specific arc and even more specifically, his ponytail:

lastly, I just want to take the time to appreciate some of the more memorable images I’ve collected of his long hair. I personally think the resurgence of the style is in part due to TNBA’s look since that’s the general design I’ve seen that hair paired with lately, though whether that’s the case I’m not sure.

I’m a glutton for punishment so I paired that with TTG’s future episode nightwing. like a fine wine and moldy cheese, these two. but it’s a testament to TNBA’s potential and lasting influence.

look at that. that ponytail is dangerous. it’s violated the no-kill rule on its own. also loving the founding fathers look of the second panel in this batch. it curls at the end. how quaint. I am, however, going to be sick

comics also make fun of dick on a relatively consistent basis, which has also done its part in keeping the look alive. Nightwing #98 (the above panels) is from a little less than a year ago, so pretty recent! but times have changed and the luscious locks haven’t made the cut in recent comics.

me personally, I’m a fan of the curtain fringe/soft mullet look that’s become sort of the default in the past few years, but the long hair will forever be famous. how many times did he get yanked by that ponytail in a fight. how many times did it get stuck on something which in turn lost him crucial reaction time. it really was his coming of age haircut and I’ll split hairs about its history anytime. every hair pun in this cost me one year of my life

anyways. this ask brought me so much joy thank you!!!! I didn’t have as much stored knowledge about this as I’d like but hopefully the links give you some good info and also maybe a good laugh. thanks again! <3

[starfiretruther]

i feel like ever since comics left the silver age there has been this bizarre nearly fetishistic desire to associate robins with this stripping of innocence that has to do with you fundamentally still seeing them as the child robin figure for it to be shocking. like killing robins, having them be in these toxic relationships, showing them being sexualized (often by notably older chars) is all part of this really uncomfortable still ongoing trend. and i’m not saying that as robins grow up they can’t experience sex and sexual exploration or dark themes, i actually think ntt’s take on this was really honoring of dick and explored what it would be like to grow up under the robin mantle and also what it would take to come into one’s own identity afterwards, but usually this trend makes me really uncomfortable, like how dick has been written to be sexually assaulted multiple times (ive never seen it done tactfully), or how more than one adaptation has harley make a comment about how much dick has grown up (ew), or how they wanted to kill tim drake with aids in the 90s (they instead went with extrano). i guess while there is nothing technically wrong with making an adult male character a little sexy, the modern obsession with dick’s ass feels like an extension of this to me still. like dc and it’s fans don’t know how to be normal about robins. idk if that makes sense or maybe i project too much but i just really wish there was more skill and intention with writing robins and less schlock and awe

hm while i don’t disagree i feel like the general ‘stripping of innocence’ happened to most child or at least happy go lucky characters (e.g. bucky barnes), not just robin. Robin stands out cuz they’ve been the most recognisable child/sidekick hero in media. Comics in general took a turn to darker (less fun) “serious” stories in the 80s. Robin in particular has been a target for hate since the 60s because fans thought he made batman campy and gay (there was the whole seduction of the innocent thing where they said batman and robin were coded queer messaging trying to indoctrinate the children). I think rather than Dick, Jason got hit with the most ire of the editorial and fans and when stories kept getting darker and darker, he became an unfortunate victim. Dick (at least in this time period) had a lot of dignity, getting a well-thought out coming of age narrative through nightwing and being firmly cemented as a respectable, reliable adult hero (thanks to the titans and his romance with kory). While comics always had a touch of fanservice, his sexualization really started around the late 90s and had a resurgence during the n52-rebirth era. I think any of his prior sexualization was standard male fantasy stuff (this guy gets all the ladies type thing). I think in Tim’s case they weren’t going for a “let’s destroy his innocence “ thing and more of a way to both modernise him for a contemporary (90s) audience and also distance him far away from the gay allegations (how ironic lol). They still wanted the kid watson to Batman’s brooding sherlock but also just more “normal” so the kids relate. Which is why they made him a cheater etc and i know how tf is that better but they really didn’t want him to be gay fhdjfj. I don’t know much abt the aids story pitch though. Steph and Damian are also better examples of “stripping the innocence” storylines for Robin than Dick and Tim. Steph also had a tragic death, and Damian’s first introduction is as a child assassin (antithesis to innocence). I agree that it’s weird people are so weird abt robins (and child characters in general) but imo it reflects more on an audience’s (and editorial’s) insecurity regarding childish, campy things because why are you mad at the camp medium for being camp? Learn to have some fun LEWSER.

I feel like most dick grayson fans feel so strongly abt this is because they like his prudish and insecure ntt characterisation (and so do i tbh it’s very interesting) and also the multiple SA storylines that a) never got resolved or b) were handled poorly. BUT that dick grayson hasn’t been in comics for a while now. We haven’t seen any acknowledgment from dc’s editorial that dick is a rape survivor, he’s been consistently characterized as a confident metrosexual (eww hate that word) guy both in his civilian and superhero persona (and that agent 37 grayson thing is the biggest culprit here). He’s also retroactively being portrayed as a smooth talking flirt in his robin days now so clearly that’s what they’re going for (imo i think they’re doing what they did with tim to dick's robin just to make him look more “normal” and relatable and straight).

Dick’s robin era is still treated as peak batman&robin era and he’s still a symbol for innocent, “simpler” times. He’s gotten the most grace when transitioning from child to teen to adult hero. On the topic of his sexualization aka the butt issue, it’s only cuz he’s one of the most popular male hero they can sexualize. I genuinely don’t think there’s any malice from the editorial since Dick has been an adult for 40 years now and there’s nothing wrong with sexing up his stories BUT ALSO i get why fans are upset cuz they’re deliberately ignoring his past characterization and sexual history to make him into a more palatable, marketable character. And tbh it’s been going on for long enough that it might as well be his defining character trait now :/ .

[roxy-morinaka]

I don''t mean to intrude in your ask box but this is actually an interesting conversation and one that doesn't appear often so forgive me fo this super long ask.

Do you think it's a bad thing to have characters that are created to be love interests? I think its worse when you have characters who are popular and have a fanbase and then get reduced to playing second fiddle in a relationship.

A love interest that I'm thinking of that became beloved is Lois but she may be the exception. I think it works better when characters are created to be love interests because then they fit within that world and can be developed from there. Dick and Barbara are more of examples of heroes who have their own fanbases. If you are a Dick Grayson fan you can choose from a number of ships. Barbara Gordon fan? You only have one ship and if you don't like it too bad. In Pre-crisis she dated so many different civilian men but that all stopped and no writer has ever invested in trying to let her date again or if they did a little you knew it wouldn't last because you knew who she was going to go back to.

From 2016-2023 the Nightwing title and Batgirl title were about their romance. There were very few issues where they weren't together or thinking about each other. And its been reinvented over and over again. N52 Dick is older than her and written like a cool older guy. Rebirth they share their first kiss as kids together. Currently they were best friends with each other. Young Justice they were schoolmates. Okay, in the 90s if you shipped Dickbabs there was content for you, and if you didn't ship DickBabs you could easily find something to read that didn't have it and ignore it while still enjoying the characters. You could ship Dinahbabs, or TedBabs, or some rarepair because there was content and flirting between characters to do so. Returning Barbara to Oracle doesn't solve the problem that these two have been at the hip for several years now. You can make that writing better but still doesn't solve the problem. Barbara Gordon was not created to be a love interest. She should have love interests in the same way you can list all of Dick Grayson's. Or Tim's. Or Bruce's. Heck, even Jason Todd has a list and he has the closet gap out of the batfamily in creation to Barbara and he was created after. And this goes for all the Batgirls too.

Not everyone likes romance and that's okay, but it is a part of these heroes lives but it shouldn't be the only part. Comic writers have abandoned the civilians they are supposed to care about. The supporting cast and people they are supposed to help. It's all Batfamily this and Batfamily that. And that's another thing, Dick has soooooo much lore and history. He doesn't get hurt by any changes to his history he just keeps growing. Barbara Gordon almost got her own movie. She's a symbol and considered her own hero but she doesn't feel like it. She gets replaced on the Birds of Prey and didn't even star in the movie. They would never replace Dick on the Titans. Batgirl comic was bad? So was Nightwing's but that didn't get cancelled.

And look, people can ship what they want but there is such an unfairness that has been happening here and been happening for a very long time.

I have always thought the best way to write relationships in comics is with time and growth. You create a whole array of characters that can have non romantic roles in multiple stories and see where the chemistry and story lead you. The relationships feel more organic and the characters less two dimensional.

Then when the romantic relationships end they rarely rekindle and are not forced back together again and again because certain writers or editors shipped it when they read comics.

I hated that N52 thought they could reduce and cheapen backstory to refresh everything but then just tried to force the same familial and romantic relationships in a less interesting way. I am not sure for me that the comics ever really recovered.

While I am not a particular fan of Barbara Gordon I am very frustrated with the dilution of her character over the years to the point where she has been reduced to a love interest and member of the 'bat family'.

I think individual character titles should build thier own characters and only feature cameos from other established characters as a small part of a story. Not move them in as regulars and further reduce thier chances of having thier own runs.

[bigandtalltales]

Hunter Black Page 198 - Religious Intolerance

What I Said Then: "Am I the only one who sees shades of Scott McDaniel’s work in this? The first time I saw this page, I thought I was reading an issue of Nightwing from the 90s. Nightwing from the 90s remains one of my favorite mainstream comics ever, so that’s high praise coming from me. This is another example of Will going in a different direction from what I wrote, and making it a little better. My script would have had this image mid-punch, but I think we would have lost Vaj in his maniacally flexing glory. (And I love that dead eye.) Vaj is named for a character that a buddy of mine played…also in the 90s, now that I think about it. This was 2nd Edition D&D in full effect. There’s a reason I chose this name, a reason I’ll illuminate later."

What I'm Saying Now: Little did I know that the dead eye was prophetic. Diabetes is a bitch. (My wife. We're controlling her blood sugar better now -- but we still have a long ways to go.)

[natpetersoncore]

i love bitching about things this is just me bitching scroll if you don’t wanna see me dislike smth

reverse robins au just doesn’t do it for me 90% of the time cause

1. any of them being called robin aside from dick doesn’t work bc dick is the whole reason robin became the name

2. most aus i see keep the “role” each robin had in order but just gives it to someone else. example: damian leaves and becomes nightwing, tim dies and becomes red hood, jason becomes red robin, dick stays perpetually as the newest little robin. where’s the fun in that?? maybe that’s the appeal for most people but if their age is changed i don’t wanna see them just take the role the normal au person would have

[zahri-melitor]

And those initial reactions to the story coming out can also curiously set the narrative on a story, particularly if the take was 'this is bad', even if 90% of the fandom now discussing it did not read it contemporaneously while it came out.

My best guess as to how this occurs is because of the monthly speculation cycle if you're reading contemporaneously can build and set a narrative before a long story arc completes, particularly if there is a delayed payoff. And if at the time all the fandom is doing is complaining about how much they don't like this narrative, and they hold onto that attitude, when people later on ask if they should read that story they get told 'no, it sucks', because people are less likely to go back and read a story straight through if they didn't enjoy it, then that gets transmitted as the narrative about that story, over and over, down what can be literal decades.

Contemporaneous reading gets obsessed with specific details in single issues that may or may not get played out over the narrative. Retrospective reading allows more looking at how themes develop, as you've got the whole storyline in front of you. Both are good! But they can see the same story very differently.

Let's use a personal example. I clearly remember disliking Red Robin as it came out in 2009-2010 and thinking it had severely damaged a character I loved, to the point I left the fandom not long after.

I also read Red Robin straight through for the first time last year and I really enjoyed it that time, particularly in terms of getting to ferret out all the references and easter eggs hidden throughout it. It is very much a story that reads better in trade, with some emotional distance from having events shaken up around you.

Conversely, despite the way DC pushes it, I think Hush is actually designed to be best read as it was coming out, in a serial format, rather than as a single trade. (Heretical, I know). But it's very much a mystery if you read it serially - it shifts focus on hero and villain every issue, and is designed for rampant speculation during the month between issues and people adding up who has and has not been featured yet, in the quest for 'who is the villain?', down to specifically skipping using a few famous villains so as to keep the speculation possible, and all of that context tends to be lost if you read it straight through as a trade, because the focus then goes onto Tommy Elliot and Bruce's relationship as the main thread throughout.

My biggest examples for 'the narrative about this story is still set by the people who read it contemporaneously, not by anyone who read it later on' are the Evil!Cass arc and Devin Grayson's Nightwing run.

Evil!Cass in particular is something that, if you sit down and read the 15 or so issues involved back to back - Robin #148-#151, TT03 #43-46, Supergirl05 #14 and Batgirl08 #1-6 - your response is likely to be 'is that it?'. Story set up in 4 issues, story resolved in next 4 issues, and then elaborate repetitions of how Cass is still Cass for 6 issues.

The pain was largely in the wait back in 2006. It's not actually in the story on page; they did a pretty solid repair and retcon asap.

On the other hand, Devin Grayson's Nightwing still has the reputation that Devin 'never addressed Nightwing #93', despite its actual biggest flaw as a story being that due to War Games and Nightwing Year One, her story got stuck on hold for a YEAR right at its lowest point, and so the fan narrative about how depressing it was got stuck...because the story didn't progress. And even though once she got the title back to start the upswing and resolution, a combination of fans being set against the narrative (because their views had crystallised over that delay) and then Infinite Crisis cutting ALL stories off in mid-plot, meant she never really got to write whatever the original plot envisioned. Grayson's run is a study in what-might-have-been and editorial interference (and also in how you probably shouldn't draft 30+ issue plotlines without regular inset lifelines over time that you can pull to resolve the story should you get cut short).

And this is fascinating! Because even decades later, when most of the people in the fandom HAVE only encountered these storylines reading in retrospect (and do remember, at any time, the majority of people talking about a story read it in retrospect, due to sheer attrition of readers over time) some people are still parroting opinions developed by the people who read them contemporaneously, while others have formed a completely separate view on the story that is violently in opposition to those contemporaneous reads, affected by reading it in total and influenced by later narratives, leading to a lot of conflict.

okay. i do think part of the problem of comics as a medium sometimes is that because it comes out on a month by month basis, the tone people take about a story as it's currently coming out tends to dictate how people should respond to the full story in retrospect. and then you end up with a disconnect with the predominant read coming from the fans who experienced it as it was happening & were unhappy with how things happened in it, and the fans who come in much later who have the benefit of being able to experience the story as the writer envisioned the entire thing and there's usually a fundamental disconnect of the people who enjoyed the story for what it is and the people who hated the story as it was coming out. and it's hard to tell someone who had such a front seat, visceral reaction to how much they didn't like the story as it was being told to change their mind on that & the people with the benefit of the full story are going to defend the story as it was fully envisioned.

[redrobin-detective]

I realized I’ve talked big game about Billy and Jason coexisting as a young Captain Marvel and Robin Jason but never really explained it. I swear it’s not just because I think Jay and Bill would be the absolute best friends ever and deserve each other. So! Captain Marvel started off with Fawcett Comics in 1939 and was eventually absorbed by DC comics sometime in the mid 70s before becoming more prevalent in the 80-90s. Jason was introduced in 1983 so Jason and Billy’s introductions to the DCU are much closer together than the other Robins. So on that front I like the continuity but it’s also deeper than that.

Despite being created alongside the Golden heroes like Superman, Batman and Wonder Woman, I really like the idea of Captain Marvel coming into play after that first wave and with the second. It’s kind of mentioned in First Thunder that the Wizard saw that a great era of heroes was dawning and wanted his champion to be there to help with any threats, magical or otherwise, that may result. By the time Billy is granted his powers, the Justice League is well established and its main heroes considered to be the shining example of heroics. Hell, in this timeline Billy was probably born around the time these heroes first became active. 

The JLA is in many ways considered and run like a business, especially as it expanded beyond the original seven and required more care and coordination. The League is in this weird time where it’s starting to expand but doesn’t quite have all the kinks worked out like they will later and thus it’s the perfect time for Cap to be able to keep his identity under wraps. But also the idea of people looking up to the original heroes who paved the way, there’s some metaphors there not only of Billy growing and coming into himself through their example but in many ways exemplifying the ideal they may stray from. I really like the idea of initial tension between Supes and Marvel because, for all his kindness and goodness, Clark can be flawed. I can see him being nervous around a magical version of himself with seemingly no weaknesses. As the League gets bigger, gets involved more on social/political issues, having Billy/Marvel to serve as a reminder of what they stand for, it’s something I like. 

This period of transition extends also to Robin Jay. We had the first wave of superheroes and their sidekicks but now those sidekicks are growing up. Nightwing is with the Titans and then his own solo, Wally has assumed the mantle of the Flash from Barry, Speedy was struggling with addiction. Jason (to my mind don’t jump down my throat) was one of the first times a legacy character was properly replaced by a new character (Dick Robin -> Jason Robin). There’s a realization there that there will be heroes beyond the originals and their first set of sidekicks, that time is moving on and change in inevitable. To me and their respective origins and places in the larger DCU, Jason and Billy are symbols of change. 

This rant is getting away from me so I’ll wrap it up. Basically I think the second wave of heroes is the perfect era to slot in Billy Batson with him eventually becoming friends with newly inducted Robin Jason Todd. This, of course, later leads to tragedy with Jason’s death which poor Bill doesn’t deserve but also opens avenues on how Bill would interact with the League as it, and himself, grew up. I like most have trouble imagining Billy past 13 but imagine him giving advice and reminiscing with Tim Drake about Jay when they’re about the same age. Imagine Bill as an older teen on the cusp of adulthood when he learns his best friend has come back from the dead as a criminal. Imagine young adult Billy, trying to make his way in the world now as a proper adult having to deal with Damian’s attitude and arrogance. 

We all love perpetually baby Billy but there is a certain poetry in slotting him in a young, still getting itself together, Justice League. A Justice League that is, in itself, in its awkward preteens and trying to find it’s footing and place in the world. It puts him elbow to elbow with Superman who is struggling to find himself in his new role as the Man of Steel and is now confronted with a godlike being who absolutely could kill him and also with Jason, a street rat like him working to make a difference for the little people. I will always feel its the best place for Billy to find himself alongside a heroics organization which is looking to do the same.

[forestlingincorporated]

Re: comics, familial love, and abusive parents

Occasionally I still see the back and forth arguments over if Jack Drake is abusive or not, and I am not here to create an itemized list of all the times Jack Drake is a piece of shit. However, arguments against Jack Drake being a piece of shit usually boil down to: but he loves Tim. 

And I am not even here to talk about how loving your child does not excuse you from abusing them nor is it a defense against being an abusive parent. 

Rather what I wanted to do was demonstrate that complex parental relationships were a theme of comics aimed at teens during the 90s and early 2000s. Particularly involving parental love from child abusers. 

The most extreme example of this is David Cain. 

[Batgirl 59] 

I don’t think there’s anyone out here ready to throw down defending David Cain. He literally coerced a woman into having his child and then horribly abused that child to turn her into his “perfect assassin.” Mental abuse, physical abuse, denying her basic skills like speech... this man is the whole Abusive Dad package. 

[Batman 567]

Despite this, David is routinely depicted as deeply loving his daughter, even as early as No Man’s Land when Cassandra was first being introduced. This would be the depiction of the two one would look back on when asking “is this in character?” 

[Batgirl 22]  They’re shown to have genuinely sweet moments together back when Cassandra was a child and it’s plenty clear David loves her despite being a complete and utter fucking bastard who treated her like she was less than subhuman. 

[Robin 107] 

[Robin 111]

This is part of why Cassandra and Stephanie Brown are such close friends. Stephanie’s father is ALSO an abusive asshole who left behind a complicated jumble of emotions for Stephanie who, while she states she never loved him, is uncertain if he ever loved her, given that she isn’t sure she really ever knew what kind of man Arthur Brown really was. 

In the example above, Steph tells Tim a story in which her father is heavily implied to have murdered his friend, Jim Murray, who had attempted to molest Stephanie when she was 11. Arthur Brown is irrevocably a shit bag, but the story intentionally leaves the audience questioning whether or not he killed Murray out of love for Stephanie or out of pride for himself. 

[Young Justice 18]

[Young Justice 25]

I think another example people maybe won’t remember is Cissie King-Jones and her mother Bonnie. This is a much less extreme example more in line with Tim’s experience with his father. It’s played straight and to the point, typical of the more grounded down-to-earth problems you find in the early Young Justice run alongside the fantastical elements. Bonnie is basically a stage mom, and her abusive behavior towards Cissie is often fueled by a desire to do what she thinks is best for her daughter, a fairly typical way average parents fall into patterns of abuse, particularly Bonnie’s brand of vicariously living through her child. “I love you, I’m doing this for your own good” ends up masking the very selfish intentions. 

And then there’s Jack Drake. 

[Nightwing 20] 

Jack Drake loves his son. Jack Drake worries about Tim, cares about Tim, and wants Tim to be happy. 

He’s also an abusive shit bag, and the comics know it. 

[Batman 480] 

[Robin III: Cry of the Huntress 4]

From basically the inception of these two characters having a tangible dynamic in the comics, Tim is clear that Jack is neglectful.

[Robin 45] 

He also has a giant volatile temper, leading to emotional abusive and even strays into pre-battery physical abuse territory.

[Robin 72] 

It’s clear Jack loves Tim. But it’s also clear David Cain loves Cassandra, and Bonnie King-Jones loves Cissie. And they are aaaaaaaaaaaaall selfish and abusive in their own way.

The running theme of this era of comics aimed at a younger demographic is that parental relationships can be messy, and sometimes love isn’t enough. Sometimes the people who love us, and the people we love, are also the people hurting us. 

I think it’s important to remember that.