#reality vs fiction

[ohhhmio]

chapter 58.

i love the mystery between real and fiction in this manhwa. because the world of fiction have merged, the question whether characters are real people, and if real people are characters continuously pop up. i thought I've figured out the answers to that, but now that a real person became a character, I'm at a hault.

[technicallywrite]

Wherein, I discovered that Kate’s lunch spot bench is in fact facing the other way, and it’s zip-tied to the fence (too many people trying to recreate the scene?).

Was really happy to replicate the view though, and I had fun walking around imagining various scenes.

Most of the ravens were in an enclosure (because of avian flu apparently) but there was one hopping around free, I guess that was one of the robotic ones.

[suicidalgamergirl]

Thank you, you unprofessional hack cunt. This is why I fear going to see Neil Newbon in person because my aniexty/paranoia of admiring a fictional vampire is considered bad.

Yes, I have a fiancé, he knows I been assaulted as a tween, and so making me like relationships that are fictional, helps me express my feelings to real people too.

Goddamn.

-V

[psychronia]

Just to throw my take out there, I firmly believe in fiction's right to portray and explore bad things or bad people. But also, the main problem is when people start treating real people like they do fictional people.

And the funny thing is, you could see the reason they do this from either angle.

If they see characters as objects, then their problem is that they start getting comfortable seeing real people as objects as well. They lack the empathy to see real people as living, breathing, feeling beings. After all, it's okay when they do it to "other objects". They can't tell fiction from reality.

If they instead see characters as people instead of objects, then their problem is that they internalize things that happen to fictional characters as something that's acceptable to do with real people. They lack the empathy to believe living, breathing, feeling beings inherently deserve respect. After all, it's already happening to "people". They can't tell reality from fiction.

I really think everyone needs to truly internalize this:

Fictional characters are objects.

They are not people. You cannot "objectify" them, because they have no personhood to be deprived of. They have no humanity to be erased. You cannot "disrespect" them, because they are not real.

[junespriince]

Fictional vs reality au

Wally, reading chat: ask your boyfriend too get you the limited edition Nightwing merch the game is releasing soon? Guys, I already did, you think I didn't see that? Puh-lease.

Chat: the Nightwing tax!!

Wally: the Nightwing tax indeed.

Batfam watching his subathon.

Jason: so that's why you needed to know where B's card was.

Dick, glaring at his 2d self, jelly: I wasn't paying for this since it was B's stupid idea.

[asses-to-ashes]

Pedophiles don't belong in the proship community. Zoophiles don't belong in the furry community. Can we stop conflating these communities.

If you're recovering from a paraphilic disorder, great! Can't afford a psychologist but are anti-contact and anti-enabling? Also great! I wish you the best.

My problem comes from the normalization and celebration of paraphilic disorders on this site specifically under the disguise of disability or queer activism. A psychologist will NEVER, EVER recommend that you post about it or engage in an online community of enablers. Paraphilic disorders are not kink. Embracing paraphilic disorders is not disability activism.

You can be anti-contact and anti-enabling without being hateful or making assumptions about people who have a disorder, but people who run Para Blogs are not anti-enabling. The ProPara community has turned into a cesspool of enablers and legitimate pro-contact pedophiles who hide behind the fact that people have empathy for those with disorders they can't control. They've created a space where people brag about being pedophiles and celebrate attraction to children. This is the opposite of how the disorder is treated by professionals.

Stay away from fiction & communities that could cause you to relapse or backslide. Proshippers are not attracted to minors, our stories don't exist for pedophiles to displace their attraction onto.

The reasons paraphilic disorders are different from fetishes is because:

1. They include unwilling people or people who cannot consent, such as voyeurism or pedophilia

2. They cause the participant or others harm that is potentially lifelong

3. They prevent a person from functioning or adjusting in society

I'm going to address a post I saw earlier. EXTREME TW for the defense of pro-contact "big 3" paraphilias

START QUOTE --------------------

END QUOTE --------------------

Being gay harms nobody. It is an attraction between two consenting adults.

PARAPHILIC DISORDERS are not normal attraction. Comparing being a pedophile to being homosexual is not the #WOKE PEDOPHILE WIN that you think it is. It's insanely regressive and harmful.

To reiterate, you are not evil for having a paraphilic disorder.

You are not a bad person. You are a bad person for glorifying it, enabling yourself and others, fighting for your right to harm other people without consent, and engaging in an online community of pedophiles.

[airasilver]

Or anything kind of ‘cest.

people who claim that “you fuck your siblings if you ship wincest“: how’s life as a terrorist since you like action movies so much? how’s life as a serial killer since enjoy crime so much?

exactly. media literacy guys, media literacy.

[wolveria]

I don’t engage with the “fiction affects reality” argument, because it’s a red herring. It’s focusing on the wrong thing.

Fiction doesn’t affect reality, fiction affects people. That’s the point of art. It’s supposed to create an effect, make you feel something. If you're afraid how fiction will make people feel, then you’re not afraid of fiction. You’re afraid of people having the power to possibly cause harm.

It’s a lot more sanitized to say “this fiction is bad because it affects reality” and not the more truer version of “this fiction is bad because it might make people feel things I’m afraid of.”

And we know that can lead to some dark things fairly quickly, the desire to preemptively persecute people based on their potential for harm, rather than any harm they’ve actually done. This reaction is based on fear of the unknown, and you can’t win an argument against the irrationality of fear.

[heyftinally]

Okay, I almost ranted about this on a reblog, but it can (and probably should) be it's own post.

Fiction effects reality and fiction does not effect reality are BOTH true.

Yes, I'm going to elaborate in the most unedited, covid-fueled rant I can, as tumblr intended. Hold on to your butts, grab a soda, and strap in.

First and foremost, I need all of the piss on the poor readers to stop their feral response typing - READ what I'm ACTUALLY SAYING before you start bitching about what you're pretending I said. Got it? Good.

This is going to involve nuance. Yes, I know, this website is allergic to nuance. Pop a Benadryl, you'll be okay.

Now, for real:

Fiction DOES effect reality BUT

Only in subtle ways. Absolutely nobody is going from your average normal Sarah to a cold blooded mass murderer because they played silent hill or something. People who become murderers always have some other motive, usually long term and/or severe (ie years of abuse, victim of trafficking, untreated psychological disorder usually paired with abuse, etc).

When I say fiction influences reality, I mean kids who grew up hearing Disney's Pocahontas say "you think the only people who are people are the people who look and think like you, but if you walk the footsteps of a stranger, you'll learn things you never knew you never knew" are more likely to be accepting of diversity than the kids who exclusively grew up on South Park and Family Guy.

I mean reading stories of real people's struggles with disabilities not being accommodated will make you more likely to notice inaccessibility in your daily life, and make you more likely to be accommodating to those who need it.

I mean reading about how a character was skeptical of or easily misled about something via the media can make you more critical of what you read.

Fiction effects reality because if you only consume one kind of media, we assume that's the only way things are. If we consume a vast array of media, we learn to explore different possibilities.

Fiction does NOT effect reality IN THE WAY THAT

Reading a fanfic (or even a published novel) with dubious themes is inherently going to normalize those themes in your reality.

Millions of people watched Hannibal, but cannibalism didn't surge.

Lolita is a rather famous novel, yet I've never heard of it being the sole reason someone suddenly condoned pedophilia out of nowhere.

Horror movies do not routinely make people murderers.

Fiction is not enough to make someone completely change their morals.

So where is the line?

Exactly where your critical thinking ends.

Because yes, there are people who watch shows like South Park and Family Guy and take the crass, bigoted, and otherwise truly vile jokes at face value, and find the humor in that. There are also people who watch it and see the jokes as hyperbole emphasizing just how terrible the people in the show are. Yes, some of this also has to do with the show writers, but again - your critical thinking is what tells you "is this show promoting being racist, or is it showing this character as racist to drive home what an absolute shitbag they are?"

The other aspect is your personal moral compass and ability to adapt.

Yes, I'm talking about echo chambers.

If you can NEVER accept being wrong, or if you refuse to change your mind on a specific topic (again, like racism), so instead of adapting you seek out people who are more likely to agree with you, you may find yourself starting to agree with other viewpoints that previously you wouldn't have.

And this can be good OR bad - if being friends with someone who agrees with you that racism is wrong, they may influence you to also start believing homophobia is wrong, and that's a good thing! But the reverse can also happen, and that's bad.

But media alone didn't do that - it was one of MANY contributing factors, including race, religion, disability (or lack thereof), income, how you were raised, where you live, and more.

So whenever I see people talking about "pro-ship" and "anti-proship", all I can think is

Shipping is only one tiny thing that media can influence you on - why is shipping your sticking point, but not murder?

You aren't capable or willing of engaging with the media you consume in EITHER direction.

Being anti/proship is irrelevant. If anything you're just telling me whether or not toxic purity culture is part of your specific flavor of media illiteracy. It means nothing of substance.

Instead of worrying about who ships what, worry about how your views and actions shape how you percieve and impact those around you.

[myfandomrealitea]

so do antis ever have an actual argument for why writing noncon, incest, abuse, etc. is bad and condoning those behaviors IRL, but media glorifying graphic violence is fine? bc all the antis I’ve asked tend to deflect or treat it like a bad faith question.

Because that would then force them to acknowledge that they don't actually care about mainstream media and simply find it easier to target and harass individual people with moral flag waving and threats over massive corporations who would either outright ignore them or smash them with the legal hammer.

What's easier; hounding a teenager online with death threats because they write incest fanfic or forcing international censorship of Game of Thrones and prosecuting George R. R. Martin as an incestuous murdering rapist who creates child pornography?

What's easier; needing no argument other than; "I think its gross and immoral" as defence for your virtue signalling or needing very extensive knowledge of the law, sociology and psychology in order to accurately formulate and prove that creating and/or consuming content relative to specific subjects is more harmful than beneficial and has direct action consequences?

And thus, the answer. Option A is indefinitely easier and more manageable, and more outcome-effective. Antis then real like they're "empowering real change" because if they successfully bully someone off of a platform, they were Right All Along and their activism is Working.

(Whereas if they went after Universal Studios, for example, they would probably be sued into oblivion and laughed at for generations to come. Not very empowering or uplifting.)

[fairytailfairiess]

I'm all for pointing out a flaw(s) in a character or a couple but the key of understanding one another with different view points is that you DON'T have to fully on agree with everything but to only listen to yourself is where I draw the line

I know Juvia has some issues I know Juvia takes her love for Gray on a level that no "rational" person can understand I know Natsu can be a bit centric when it comes to boundaries I know there are just small times when Natsu doesn't respect of Lucy's space I know in some reality that Gajeel wouldn't work with Levy cause he tried to kill her and same with Jellal/Erza

I don't mind talking about these things but people are so hung up on the small details to not be able to bypass the fact that they all really have grown in their ways even if it doesn't seem like it and at the end of the day they're fictional most people who get into this series are adults and most adults (should) understand that no decent person would act on these types of behavior so really people need to just stop taking fiction so seriously

[destinygoldenstar]

Regression of one’s redemption in real life: Expected and normal and shows that being a better person is not a switch. You will fail, you will make the same mistakes again and again until the lesson truly sticks. Regression is not good, but it is something to be expected on that journey. A bump in the road, shall we say. Regression of one’s redemption in fiction: “Bad Writing”

(Okay well in SOME cases in fiction that’s true, but you know, context matters, so not EVERY example of regression deserves the label I feel. The fact the character regresses isn’t bad. How the writer handles that regressing is.)

(Zuko & Bojack Horseman are some amazing examples of a character ‘regressing’)

[asses-to-ashes]

Longass post about some problematic aspects of 2000-2010 fandom, and why antis are not the solution for ongoing problems.

When people my age talk about 2000s-2010 fandom, they usually talk about it with rose-colored glasses as if it was the Golden age of fandom. I've done the same thing in some of my posts at times, and I don't necessarily see a problem with it, especially when you're discussing it under the context of the current climate of censorship and community harassment, but it's important to look back at the past objectively. When I say old fandom in this post, just know that I'm referring to 2000 to 2010.

There is a happy medium that needs to be reached between holding people accountable in fandom and avoiding censorship. The "anti" mindset goes way too far and polices how people explore fiction, but Old Fandom had its own problems with extremely poor behavior. In this essay I'm going to be exploring these problems in old fandom, the causes and solutions, why media censorship is never the answer. It's important to recognize and reflect on these things especially for people who weren't around to experience it. History repeats itself when Forgotten.

My point is not, and has never been that old fandom was worse than new fandom. My point is not that old fandom is bad at all. My point here is looking at problems, the solutions that have been made for those problems, and why they don't relate to censoring fiction at all.

I want to reiterate that I know things I'm about to discuss still happen. You do not have to comment. But it's important that we start looking objectively at Old Fandom as a wonderful, accepting but sometimes problematic (real problematic not the way antis nave coopted that word) space.

Keep in mind that this is an opinion piece. While I do provide statistics, I'm not trying to make any objective statements. My experience is probably different than yours. The experiences of my friends and my sources are probably different than yours.

With that in mind, let's get into it. Click read more for the meat of this essay

Cosplay Is Not Consent

Consent and sexual harassment have always been a huge issue within the cosplay community, there have been countless stories of women dealing with unwanted sexual advances such as touching, cat calls, kissing, and groping in convention spaces. At conventions in 2000, consent was never mentioned. With such a severe problem, the Cosplay Is Not Consent movement began.

This has been a notion that has been around for a while, been posted at some small cons as far beck as 2012. but it really only became a popularized sentiment at New York City Comic-Con 2014, where the phrase "Costumes Are Not Consent was posted publicly in the convention apace, along with a clear anti-harassment policy.

Even though research shows that most sexual harassment goes unreported, the amount of sexual harassment reports had more than halved in the first year of the visible anti-harassment signs and movement. The amount of sexual harassment cases at NYCC remained steady at "about a dozen" per year even as the number of attendees has increased from 151,000 in 2014 to more than 200,000 in 2023- A testament to the increased awareness of sexual harassment within fandom, an ongoing movement to protect attendees with anti-harassment policies.

A policy is only as good as the structure set up around that policy. An increasing number of conventions have a policy, display their policy prominently, define harassment, explain consequences, let guests know how to report harassment, and give separate protocols when convention organizers are responsible for abuse.

Now, instead of an unspoken "look the other way" policy, congoers are more likely to notice sexual harassment, come to someone's aid, and speak out. People who harass women are more likely to be kicked out of conventions and sexual harassment is more likely to be reported.

Obviously, sexual harassment and assault is still a huge problem in convention spaces, but with an increase in awareness around the issue, it's not as prominent as before.

Subsection: Yaoi Paddles, Glomping, and dangerous conduct

Reportedly first sold in 2002 at Otakon, yowie paddles are a wooden paddle with the word Yaoi burnt into the paddle end used for spanking people. They were a huge problem at conventions and caused a lot of people to be injured as a result. There were countless stories on forums about people being hit by random passerbys using a yaoi paddle, and people begged for it to be banned.

Glomping Is a running hug action that's a mix between a hug and a pounce. It was very popular in fandom, specifically around 2005 in the anime and furry fandoms. It was mostly younger people doing this and it caused a lot of people to be injured as well. Glopping incidents sometimes even included biting or groping.

Both of these behaviors were considered very poor etiquette, but were still very common in conventions. They were common enough so that even saying the words yaoi paddle or glomp to a cosplayer my age is like activating a sleeper agent. Your life flashes before your very eyes. Obviously I'm being dramatic here but it was very annoying.

Inappropriateness with Actors

In general, poor etiquette around celebrities is still a thing now. I haven't seen etiquette getting any better, so this point is less about a problem with old fandom and more about a current issue that still needs to be addressed. I'm going to be talking about real people, fan fiction and the blurred lines between characters and actors.

I'm not here to debate the ethics of "real people fiction." For those of you who don't know, RPF is a genre of fanfiction that involves real people. These people can be actors, politicians, historical figures, youtubers, really anything like that.

The problem comes from involving real actors in your fiction about them. What I mean by this is sending the actors your explicit fan fiction, or asking them inappropriate sexual questions. This is more of a problem from the early 2000's. While this does still happen now, it was really prolific in the early Lord of the Rings and Harry Potter fandoms.

Actors would frequently be invited to fan sites that had explicit RPF fanfiction. I've seen cases where actors were asked to sign copies of RPF, actors were mailed RPF, and were showed these fanfictions at meetups and conventions.

RPF never died off, and it's still a very popular genre. Between 2016 and 2017, fanfiction about real K-pop stars. Increased 10% on Tumblr. In 2015, Larry Stylinson was the number one ship on Tumblr according to Amanda Brennan, senior content insights manager at Tumblr.

Celebrities have been harassed for not following a fandom script, online shipping has led to the real life harassment of celebrities. For example, Lili Reinhart reported that her castmate was sent death threats because her character was getting in between a popular ship. This happened in 2017 and represents an ongoing problem in fandom.

Nazism and the Anime Boston Incident

I distinctly remember going to conventions when I was younger and seeing Nazi cosplayers walking around sometimes. They could be from Indiana Jones, Captain America, or whatever movie allowed them to wear that.

It wasn't until 2017 when Rose City Comic-Con updated a change to cosplay policy outlawing Nazi cosplayers including satirical or ironic cosplays which use Nazi paraphernalia or gear. Other conventions have also enacted similar cosplay bands in response to incidents such as the hello Kitty SS uniforms (yes, this is real) and cosplays of other fictional Nazis such as old school Hydra and red skull.

The most memorable incident that I distinctly saw on the internet in 2010 was the Hetalia Anime Boston Incident. For those of you who aren't familiar with hetalia, it's a series that came out in 2009 and initially took place in WWII, and each character is the humanization of a country. There is still debate on the characterization, especially regarding the character Germany- Poor guy was the cause of this specific controversy. The Italia fandom had exponential growth since 2009, and at anime Boston 2010, there was an incident regarding a hetalia photo shoot where cosplayers decided to do a Nazi salute as a joke. Even at the time, the sparked controversy on the Hetalia fandom on livejournal which is why I remember this incident so specifically. There were incidents like this beforehand, but this garnered enough attention online so that lots of photographers made it very clear that no Nazi imagery or posing was allowed.

With more restrictive policies and increased awareness, these types of cosplays became a lot less common in the west. The band are usually around Nazi iconography and symbols such as salutes and uniforms. You still see these cosplays today, such as an example from Hong Kong at Ani-com that took place this month, July 2024.

Where do antis fit in here?

I want to make it super clear that none of these major issues that I brought up here have to do with fiction. The points that are related to fiction, such as cosplaying a Nazi character or sending RPF to actors are entirely based on people's conduct in real life.

People never stopped liking characters like Red Skull, people still write about him and draw him. People should be allowed to write about characters like Red Skull and people should be allowed to like him, the issue arises when you wear a Nazi uniform in a public place.

People never stopped liking Yaoi. Little fan girls never stopped reading exactly the same stuff that I was reading at their age. The difference comes from behavior in real life.

Universally, the vast majority of fandom regardless of the time are able to separate fiction from reality. The problems were never caused by fiction, but rather people's behavior.

In order to stop people from cosplaying Nazi characters, the solution was not getting rid of all Nazi characters in media and harassing people who write about them. The solution was, very simply, to ban this kind of iconography at conventions and hold people accountable for their conduct.

Regardless of the space and the fandom, there are always going to be people who can't behave properly. There are always going to be people who don't know how to treat others. That's just the reality of looking at a group of people, some people don't have common sense. It is not the fiction that causes people to behave this way, but rather having a large group of people in a relatively new scene that hasn't established proper regulations and etiquette yet.

Allowing people to create, consume, and appreciate fiction that is not personally tasteful to you, or appropriate for some audiences, is an important part of society. It's extremely valuable to protect these freedoms, as censorship is a slippery slope.

My next essay will be about censorship in the Cold war era, McCarthyist homophobia, and why comic books were censored for having "anti-american" ideas.

Keep an eye out for that.

[horizon-verizon]

Lyanna & Rhaegar "Master Post"

*Will be updated probably many times*

Yes, this is narratively/IN-WORLD a love story and a love pairing. This post gives the reasons why it is meant to be so, and does so from a Watsonian vs a Doylist approach.

A List of Different Posts to Consider

hamliet's Rhaegar as Hubristically Idealistic & Relyin on Prophecy to Carry the Day [reblog]

ozymalek/Phoenix Ashes's Breakdown of How the story of Rhaegar and Lyanna is MEANT to be a Love Story, with Evidence from Text

A Claim that they were similar to Aemond and Alys under the War Prize = R*pe Context

My Reblog of a Thread: The Actual Timeline of Rhaegar, Lyanna, Aerys, etc to show how Aerys and not Rhaegar is Responsible for Elia's being in KL; Elia's Possible Reactions to Lyanna and Rhaegar; Political Marriage; The Dornish's Relationship w/the rest of Westeros

la-pheacienne's Words abt how fallacious it is to expect war from Rhaegar's actions alone....Aerys caused the war, not Rhaegar; The Queen of Love and Beuaty; "Ethical Authenticity" when Rhaegar Ran Off w/Lyanna // MY REBLOG OF IT -- this post

la-pheacienne's Response to my question: "What do you think about Rhaegar and Lyanna?"

Duty vs Love in ASoIaF

Consummation & Age of Majority in Westeros

An ask to ladymorgana91: "Do you think that Lyanna and Rhaegar were seriously in love?" -> ORIG // MY REBLOG

Cersei vs Elia & Fandom's Love for the Dead Ladies

More Reiterations of Certain Textual and Contextual Evidence for it Being a Romance Pair

An ask about how Game of Thrones Muddled People's View of Legitimization vs Acknowledgement, Polygamy, and Jon Snow being Rhaegar's Heir or Named "Aegon"

Elia is not PoC, bc the Dornish are not "PoC" but "spicy whites" even with there being discrimination against Dornish people..."white" people can be racist/ethnically dehumanizing against certain other "white" people; but even with all that, Rhaegar the man himself has never displayed any disfavor towards Elia purely or partly from her being Dornish just because Aerys did...we must remember that these two (Aerys and Rhaegar) had a very strained relationship, possibly and likely abusive, so it's very unlikely that Rhaegar shared his father's complete disregard for others in this way, esp when all his description form both not-so-great to pretty moral characters have thus far described Rhaegar as melancholy do-gooder

an ask to dragonsfromthemoon: "It says a lot about the hypocrisy of fandom when they hate Rhaegar for "abandoning" his wife and kids to fight in war but don't hate Ned for doing the same to his pregnant bride Catelyn. Rhaegar was an able-bodied prince who knew how to fight and ride a horse; to not fight would have branded him a coward. The reason Jaime and the other Kingsguard stayed behind is because they are sworn to protect the royal family which is why Rhaegar tasked them to protect Lyanna and Elia." // MY REBLOG

a reblog about Wuthering Heights and how people tend to approach Love in fiction, by la-pheacienne // MY REBLOG of it

Further Notes

One can argue that there is a power imbalance for every single relationship or relationship-to-be in this world, because women almost never have the same authorities or access to resources that a man automatically can inherit and use to exert authority over women...that's how feudal-monarchial hierarchies work. Rhaegar and Lyanna's age difference reflects a common Westerosi phenomenon that comes form this particular real-world and Westerosi phenomenon. Dany's relationship to Irri doesn't have an age difference nor a gender inequality factor, but many have also cited how Dany's position over Irri (both are former sex slaves but Dany is Irri's queen and Irri is Dany's handmaid) has troubling possible issues for Irri anyway....but this relationship is very clearly written to be 100% consensual, and just bc Irri/people might not be exactly in love or attracted to Dany or other people, doesn't mean she can't consent to sex (as many asexuals are not attracted to their partners but they can def consent).

Obviously, when we are trying to say what actually happens in the story (not from a writer's perspective, but literally what are the characters-as-if-Westeros-were-real), we need to look at the books/the "text" with some degree of remove from out own world to understand what the characters are doing and why they do it. Our own expectations of social context is not going to inform the entire text...bc this is not a text/work/series set in the modern era, thus that characters are not going to have lived under your modern context for them to really think X is this and that. That's not to say predators don't exist in Westeros & Planetos; GRRM gives very clear examples (Robert, Craster, Roose Bolton, Walder Frey, those slave masters who have child slaves, etc.). It's to say do not rush to label some characters as a very specific sort of predator when some textual details tell us both directly and indirectly that some situations show they functionally cannot.

All in all, yes GRRM frequently includes large age differences in romantic relationships as he wrote during a time where he and many others weren't really thinking about how such a power imbalance often spells trouble for the much younger (esp teenaged) partner, esp when its older boy/man and younger woman/girl...

BUT

"I don't think GRRM should have presented a 16 yr old and 22-24 year old as a tragic love story, esp when it resulted in her being physically separated from her family & dying from childbirth at such a young age."

DOES NOT EQUAL

"Rhaegar groomed, raped, & imprisoned her in a tower to force her to have his child or just because he's a pedophile and left her to die. He didn't understand true responsibility and duty. And he hated his wife and kids.

because the latter says that this actually happens in the actual narrative. The first one says GRRM PRESENTS a story that:

they think could have detrimental effects on some readers' perception of real-life relationships

or/and it makes them too uncomfortable with the very notion of such a age difference for what they know would be a power imbalance out of context/the story (esp when people frequently ignore context, which leads to misunderstandings to misunderstand)

Both readings still don't really absorb or consider the textual and ASoIaF/Westerosi social contexts both out and in the specific events before Robert's Rebellion, but they still aren't the same bc the second one is claiming that it is what is actually happening in-world.

What specific details prevent LyannaxRhaegar from being straight up grooming/rape? Because:

Lyanna clearly did not want to marry Robert; she was very likely the Knight of the Laughing Tree, who Aerys was looking for to likely kill; Rhaegar is very much her type, considering how she had a specific outlook on justice compatible with Rhaegar's goal towards refashioning Westeros from its destructive historical actions, including in the hands of his own family -- she more than likely (read "definitely") ran away with Rhaegar

we know intimately abt how power imbalances where there's a teen involved has disastrous effects we take measures against it with laws preventing what we've constructed are "teens" marrying non-teen adults (bc the concept of "teen" didn't exist until very recently in human history) and these people do not have such a concept to even be held accountable for staying away from 16 year olds, who were considered adults [however, even for them and I mean Westeros not real history, certain age differences are not favorable or good]; this is a fantasy series set in a pseudo-medieval feudalistic society whose characters cannot exist in their own world without the author's intent...they literally do not exist in our world]

You can dislike some of the characters & GRRM, but to misinterpret them as searching for teens for the mere sake of searching for teens in the way real pedos and groomers do and thus make Rhaegar the same as someone like Craster is ridiculous. The story is about particular nuances of feudalistic duty vs romantic/platonic/altruistic/self love versus how one approaches "fixing" the world/people but bungling it up bc you left too much up to a grand sense of "purpose".

Rhaegar failed bc he was way too idealistic that he let ideas of heroism carry him away from observing issues with is own acrions or how e implemented a lot of them. So he was both irresponsible in one sense and was obsessed w/fufilling an ultimate level of "responsibility" through a prophecy I think he took as way to justify/redeem te corruption around him. Yes, he wanted to be "authentic", but went about it unfairly & disastrously under that inevitable weight.

[aurynne]

my take on the fiction vs reality debate when it comes to being sexually attracted to young characters, presented with poorly edited pictures. eat my ass out in the replies but before you do, just know that having trauma doesn’t excuse any weird behavior.

[waxingrunes]

But it’s so biased and top Remus is so preferred. I just wish you were more into bottom Remus or sub Remus because it’s such a waste. Your style is so good you could make it look so good but you’re wasting your potential on one thing

I appreciate you might not be coming in at a volatile angle but I’m not your sounding board for fandom bias. Thank you for the compliment but since the last two weeks I’ve received two or three messages suggesting I should do this and that, or why I’m wrong for doing this and that, and I’ve no clue where you’re coming from. I welcome discussions on a mature and adult basis as I’m a sexually lucrative person, but the discourse I see around fandom and bedrooming is mad and makes me believe none of you have any real life experience on the topic.

Before anyone spits on my neck this isn’t me bashing asexuals, those who have chosen not to or are yet to engage in sexual or intimate relations for any reasons, or those who choose to explore their sexuality through the virtual experience of fiction and/or other online resources. I’m talking about those who witter and whine to their screens about how wrong things are, how it’s ‘stupid’ or ‘weird’ to like one thing or have preferences— last time I checked there’s no wrong way to do fiction based on the fact alone that it is fiction.

If you want to take character A and make them top, enjoy them topping, only really want to engage in character A topping environments then you hop on your merry way and saturate your experience with it. If you think character B looks like they should bottom and only enjoy it when they do so and don’t fancy reading or seeing anything that involves them doing the opposite, curate your experience to reflect exactly that. STOP ALLOWING PEOPLE TO TELL YOU HOW TO ENJOY THINGS (full stop) IN A FICTIONAL SETTING. Stop allowing people to make you feel weird or wrong for simply wanting character A to pound character B and treat them like a princess. None of us are marching up to a real life queer couple, sizing them up based on the few facts and visuals we have on them, then telling them why they don’t fuck right. This is not real life, this is play pretend and should be a safe space to enjoy whatever the fuck you want, as many times as you want, wherever you want, with whatever fucking bias you want. Go find the people who think like you and keep any ailments you have about things just like that, between you. As long as you’re not taking to public platform to shit on others, people’s likes and dislikes, and keep your opinions to the comfort of your friendship group confessionals then I promise you, there is no wrong way to do fandom.

If you are one of those people who are making posts and whipping out your scriptures like you’re some wolfstar or whoever the fuck’s prophet, coming in clutch with your lists and reasons and thesis, running around dropping anonymous messages or losing sleep because fictional character is just not to your liking and oh no the world is off its axis, put your message BACK in the bottle. Nobody cares that much and those who do I guarantee you, I guarantee you my friends, there is life outside of the internet.