#popular myths

[rrcraft-and-lore]

Thing you might not have known, but yes, gladiators actually were made to promote/advertise objects in the arena when coming out. Seriously...they were celebrities in their era and product placement ads (live time) were a real fucking thing.

It's also why, contrary to the "popular take" of the thumbs down killing of gladiators, that was SUPER SUPER SUPER SUPER and I Mean SUPER rare.

These were THE PEAK of entertainment back then. They were housed, fed, trained, paid sums, they were given whores, a lot of money went into them.

It'd be like taking your race track sponsored exoticar with legit major brand sponsors/deals and then going, DAMN, I LOST THAT RACE, FUCK IT, TOTAL MY CAR.

What?

Yeah, no. 9/10 gladiators survived their matches.

They also didn't fight all the time. We're taking 3-5 times a year. This overlaps a bit with pro boxer fights in a year 2-4.

This isn't even taking into account the myth of thumbs up/thumbs down. But...yeah.

[just-an-enby-lemon]

I was friendly reminded that O Boto Cor de Rosa is actually an insane concept.

So I'm sure most people here are familiar with the concept of "animal brides" in popular myths. Cool. So in Brazil this concept was translated into the Boto, now the animal itself has the same name and it's a big pink dolphim that is likely the least evil dolphim eve. On the legend tho...

Basically according to legend during certain nights the Boto would leave the water in the form of an extremely handsome man and go to balls to dance and seduce woman, leaving in the morning and being responsable for most if not all pregnancies outside of wedlock (or that were clearly not from the husband). He was just surpernaturally charming and sexy. That being said the Boto always uses a hat, because it still has the usual dolphim air hole. That dees mean that if the guy was too insistent on keeping his hat in bed you know for sure you got an absentee father in case of pregnancy.

[theoihalioistuff]

ARES IS NOT THE PROTECTOR OF WOMEN IN GREEK MYTHOLOGY.

He is never presented as such in any source, there is no evidence such a role was ever assigned to him in any account, and as far as I'm aware this popular yet unattested assertion is born from the echo-chambers of tumblr. In fact quite the opposite could be argued. TW for sexual assault.

This baffling claim seems to originate from a sort of shallow examination of the way Ares "behaves in myth", and the following arguments are the most frequently presented:

1. Ares protects his daughter Alkippe from assault, and is therefore morally opposed to rape. (Apollodorus 3.180, Pausanias 1.21.4, Suidas "Areios pagos", attributed to Hellanikos)

Curiously this argument is never applied to, among other examples: Apollo for defending his mother Leto from Tytios, Herakles for defending Hera from Porphyrion (or his wife Deianeira from Nessos), or Zeus for defending his sister Demeter from Iasion (in the versions where he attacks her), etc. The multiple accounts of rape of the previously mentioned figures did not conflict with these stories in greek thought: they're defending family members or women otherwise close to them. This sort of mentality is not uncommon even in contemporary times, e.g. a warrior may have no ethical problem killing men, but would not want his own family or loved ones to be killed. The same goes here for sexual assault.

2. There are no surviving accounts of Ares sexually assaulting anybody.

The idea that the ancient greeks pictured that, among all the gods, Ares was the only one who shied away from committing rape is baseless and borders on ridiculous. In this case absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.

The majority of surviving records regarding Ares' unions are presented in a genealogical manner, and do not go into details on their nature. This is the case for most works of mythography, where specifics of sexual encounters are to be found elsewhere. However, common motifs present in other accounts of rape also appear in stories concerning Ares' relationships, e.g. tropes like shape-shifting/the use of disguises, the victim being a huntress, secrecy, and the disposal of the concieved child, are to be found in the stories of Phylonome and Astyoche respectively:

Φυλονόμη Νυκτίμου καὶ Ἀρκαδίας θυγάτηρ ἐκυνήγει σὺν τῇ Ἀρτέμιδι: Ἄρης δ᾽ ἐν σχήματι ποιμένος ἔγκυον ἐποίησεν. ἡ δὲ τεκοῦσα διδύμους παῖδας καὶ φοβουμένη τὸν πατέρα ἔρριψεν εἰς τὸν Ἐρύμανθο

"Phylonome, the daughter of Nyktimos and Arkadia, was wont to hunt with Artemis; but Ares, in the guise of a shepherd, got her with child. She gave birth to twin children and, fearing her father, cast them into the [River] Erymanthos." (Pseudo-Plutarch, Greek and Roman Parallel Stories, 36)

οἳ δ᾽ Ἀσπληδόνα ναῖον ἰδ᾽ Ὀρχομενὸν Μινύειον, τῶν ἦρχ᾽ Ἀσκάλαφος καὶ Ἰάλμενος υἷες Ἄρηος οὓς τέκεν Ἀστυόχη δόμῳ Ἄκτορος Ἀζεΐδαο, παρθένος αἰδοίη ὑπερώϊον εἰσαναβᾶσα Ἄρηϊ κρατερῷ: ὃ δέ οἱ παρελέξατο λάθρῃ: τοῖς δὲ τριήκοντα γλαφυραὶ νέες ἐστιχόωντο.

"And they that dwelt in Aspledon and Orchomenus of the Minyae were led by Ascalaphus and Ialmenus, sons of Ares, whom, in the palace of Actor, son of Azeus, Astyoche, the honoured maiden, conceived of mighty Ares, when she had entered into her upper chamber; for he lay with her in secret" (Homer, Iliad 2. 512 ff)

In neither of these cases is a verb explicitly denoting rape used, though it is heavily implied by the context. The focus of the action is on the conception of sons, the nature of the interaction is secondary.

Other examples are found among the daughters of the river Asopos, who where (and here there's no confusion) ravished and kidnapped by different gods to different parts of the greek world, where they found local lines through children borne to their abductors and serve as eponyms. Surviving fragments from Corinna of Tanagra tell us:

"Asopos went to his haunts . . from you halls . . into woe . . Of these [nine] daughters Zeus, giver of good things, took his [Asopos'] child Aigina . . from her father's [house] . . while Korkyra and Salamis and lovely Euboia were stolen by father Poseidon, and Leto's son is in possession of Sinope and Thespia . . [and Tanagra was seized by Hermes] . . But to Asopos no one was able to make the matter clear, until . . [the seer Akraiphen reveals to him] 'And of your daughters father Zeus, king of all, has three; and Poseidon, ruler of the sea, married three; and Phoibos [Apollon] is master of the beds of two of them, and of one Hermes, good son of Maia. For so did the pair Eros and the Kypris persuade them, that they should go in secret to your house and take your nine daughters." (heavily fragmented papyrus. Corinna fr. 654)

"For your [Tanagra's] sake Hermes boxed against Ares." (Corinna fr. 666)

It seems that, similar to the myths of Beroe or Marpessa, the abducted maiden is fought over by two competing "suitors", and though we can infer that the outcome of the story is that Hermes gets to keep Tanagra, apparently by beating Ares in a boxing match, we don't actually know what happened or how it happened. In any case, Ares does mate with another daughter of Asopos, Harpina, who bears him Oinomaos according to some versions (Paus. 5.22.6; Stephanus Byzantium. Ethnica. A125.3; Diodorus Siculus 4. 73. 1). There is little reason to suppose that this encounter wasn't pictured as an abduction like the rest of her sisters.

The blatant statement that each of his affairs was envisioned as consensual is simply not true.

3. He was worshipped under the epithet Gynaikothoinas "feasted by women"

This was a local cult that existed in Tegea, the following reason is given:

"There is also an image of Ares in the marketplace of Tegea. Carved in relief on a slab it is called Gynaecothoenas. At the time of the Laconian war, when Charillus king of Lacedaemon made the first invasion, the women armed themselves and lay in ambush under the hill they call today Phylactris. When the armies met and the men on either side were performing many remarkable exploits, the women, they say, came on the scene and put the Lacedaemonians to flight. Marpessa, surnamed Choera, surpassed, they say, the other women in daring, while Charillus himself was one of the Spartan prisoners. The story goes on to say that he was set free without ransom, swore to the Tegeans that the Lacedaemonians would never again attack Tegea, and then broke his oath; that the women offered to Ares a sacrifice of victory on their own account without the men, and gave to the men no share in the meat of the victim. For this reason Ares got his surname." (Paus. 8.48.4-5)

As emphasised by Georgoudi in To Act, Not Submit: Women’s Attitudes in Situations of War in Ancient Greece (part of the highly recommendable collection of essays Women and War in Antiquity), "it is not necessary to see the operation of an invitation in the bestowal of the epithet Γυναικοθοίνας on Ares". The epithet is ambiguous, and can be translated both as "Host of the banquet of women" or "[He who is] invited to the banquet of women". In any case no act of divine intervention occurs, and the main reason for the women's act of devotion lies principally in recognising their decisive role in the routing of the Lakedaimonians. It's they who preside/participate in the feast of war, the men are excluded.

Also this a local epithet that isn't found anywhere else in Greece. As such it would be worth reminding that not every Ares is Gynaikothoinas, in the same way not every Zeus is Aithiopian, not every Demeter Erinys, and not every Artemis of Ephesos.

4. He was the patron god of the Amazons

He was considered progenitor of the Amazons because of their proverbial warlike nature and love of battle, the same reason he was associated with other "barbaric" tribes, like the Thracians or the Scythians. In this capacity he was also appointed as a suitable father/ancestor for other violent and savage characters who generally function as antagonists (e.g. Kyknos, Diomedes of Thrace, Tereos of Thrace, Oinomaos, Agrios and Oreios, Phlegyas, Lykos etc.). Also he was by no means the only god connected with the Amazons (they were in fact especially linked to Artemis, see Religious Cults Associated With the Amazons by Florence Mary Bennett, if only for the bibliography).

Similarly, Poseidon was considered patron and ancestor of the Phaiakians mainly because of their mastery over the art of seafaring (and was curiously also credited in genealogies as father to monsters and other disreputable figures).

On another note I have found no sources that claim he taught his amazon daughters how to fight, as I've seen often mentioned (though I admit I'd love to be proven wrong on that point).

5. Finally, the last reason Ares could never be portrayed as a protector of women is because of his divine assignation itself

The uncountable references to his love of bloodshed and man-slaying don't just stop short of the battlefield, but continue on to the conclusion and intended purpose of most waged wars in antiquity: the sacking of the city. The title Sacker of Cities as an epithet of Ares (though it is by no means exclusive to him) is encountered numerous times and in different variations (eg. τειχεσιπλήτης or πτολίπορθος), and the meaning behind the epithet is plain. Though it is hard to summarise without being reductionist, the sacking of a city entails the plundering of all its goods, the slaughtering of its men, and the sistematic raping and enslavement of the surviving women (to name only a small few of the literary references see The Iliad, The Trojan Women or The Women of Trachis). There is little need to emphasise that war as concieved of in ancient greece, especifically the brutal aspects of war Ares is most often associated with, directly entailed sexual violence against women as one of it's main concerns. The multiple references to Ares being an unloved or disliked deity are because of this, because war is horrifying (not because his daddy is a big old meany who hates him for no reason, Zeus makes very clear the motive for his contempt in the Iliad (5. 889-891): "Do not sit beside me and whine, you double-faced liar. To me you are most hateful of all gods who hold Olympos. Forever quarreling is dear to your heart, wars and battles.")

Ares was only the protector of women inasmuch as he could be averted or repelled (e.g. surviving apotropaic chants):

"There is no clash of brazen shields but our fight is with the war god, a war god ringed with the cries of men, a savage god who burns us; grant that he turn in racing course backward out of our country’s bounds, to the great palace of Amphitrite or where the waves of the thracian sea deny the stranger safe anchorage. Whatsoever escapes the night at last the light of day revisits; so smite him, Father Zeus, beneath your thunderbolt, for you are the lord of the lightning, the lightning that carries fire." (Shophocles, Oedipus Tyrannos, 190-202)

"And let no murderous havoc come upon the realm to ravage it, by arming Ares—foe to the dance and lute, parent of tears—and the shout of civil strife." (Aeschylus, Suppliant Women 678)

~~~~~

All that being said, this is a post about Ares as conceptualized and attested in ancient sources, made specifically in response to condescending statements about how "uhmmm, actually, in greek mythology Ares was a super-feminist himbo who was worshipped as the protector of women and was hated by his family for no reason, you idiot". It is factually incorrect. HOWEVER, far be it from me to tell anyone how they have to interact with this deity. Be it your retellings, your headcannons or your own personal religious attachments and beliefs towards Ares, those are your own provinces and prerogatives, and not what was being discussed here at all (I personally love art where Ares and Aphrodite goof around, or retellings where he plays with his daughters, or headcannons that showcase his more noble sides, etc.)

~~~~~

I've seen that other people on tumblr have made similar posts, the ones I've seen were by @deathlessathanasia and @en-theos . I have no idea how to link their posts, but they're really good so go check them out on their pages!

[gigizetz]

omg I'm doing some research of Tiresias' myths and all versions of how he became blind are the funniest things I've ever read

my favorite is the one where Hera and Zeus were arguing about which gender had more pleasure during sex (as you do), Hera being fully convinced that men was the answer. They asked Tiresias and he said women had the most pleasure, and Hera (in an act of pettiness I think?) made him blind

[szynkaaa]

The back of his head reminded her of a kiwi fruit so henceforth the Destined One has been dubbed Kiwi (half joking, half serious). There probably was a moment where the Destined One was being his usual silent bit uncaring himself where he just kept walking ahead and in frustration and annoyance Oz shouted out "urgh you stupid kiwi!" and ran after him and the nickname stuck ever since.

Fun fact, the kiwi fruit originally comes from China and is called 猕猴桃 Míhóutáo in Chinese, which literally translates to macaque fruit! It is specualted that Sun Wukong is based on the rhesus macaque.

The fruit name was rebranded from chinese gooseberry to Kiwi for better marketing, and it's a nod towards New Zealand's national bird.

[myths-tournaments]

i can be your angle....or yuor devil

Welcome to my third tournament, the Angels vs Demons tournament! It will feature two brackets running side-by-side; a full bracket of angel or angel-themed characters, and a full bracket of demon or demon-themed characters

At the end of it all, the winning angel and the winning demon will face off in their own special poll to see who comes out on top

>> Submit characters here! <<

Rules:

Fictional characters only. Mcyt is allowed under the condition that it's from a series explicitly stated to be a roleplay/fictional

You can submit as many characters as you want, but only submit each character once

Only submit one character at a time. Submissions with multiple characters will be ignored

Please only submit OFFICIAL ART of the character. Fanart will not be used in the tournament

Propaganda is encouraged, but don't drag other competitors down in the process

Please behave, I will not hesitate to block people

Harry Potter and South Park characters are disqualified from entering. Other characters may be disqualified on a case-by-case basis (i.e. characters that are just. Blatantly bigoted depictions are not getting in)

Submissions will close in roughly 2 weeks, on January 23rd. I'll sort through them and get a bracket assembled, and if I still need more characters then they'll reopen for another week or two

[themoonking]

the book trend that needs to be left in the dust for the new year is greek mythology retellings. i am so sick and tired of "retellings" of greek (or roman, but mainly greek) mythology from authors that clearly have a very surface level pop cultural understanding of the myth(s) they're adapting and the culture(s) they're depicting. especially the many that market themselves as "feminist retellings" where the "feminism" is basically just "men bad sometimes", and especially when they're "feminist retellings" that take some of the few mythological women who get happy endings and take it away from them for the sake of saying "men bad sometimes". it's all so shallow and they exploded this year and i'm sick of it.

[merriclo]

i love the idea that Wild is a big brother to basically all of the kids in his Hyrule. it’s such a good heacanon that i never see utilized.

[arklaycomplex-archived]

it's just a complicated game

[notachair]

Since atla is again having an extra surge of popularity, I'm shooting my shot:

[ID: (Rest of image description in alt). At the bottom of the image sits the text: "Zuko: Okay. Well, I can't remember how it starts, but the punchline is "leaf me alone, I'm bushed."" ID end].

Did we ever find out what the setup for this joke was? I feel kinda haunted by it. If not- anyone wanna make their best or worst guesses?

edit: I now know what "I'm bushed" mean, but go ahead anyway 👍

haunted thoughts in tags ↓

[petrichormore]

Ghostie: “You should’ve dipped him [Dapper] in the River Styx like Achilles’ mom.”

Bad: “Yeah, but then I’d have to hold him by the ankles and he has really teeny-tiny ones. I’m afraid they’d snap off.”

[scarlet--wiccan]

Anyways, the problem is that even the well-intentioned writers and artists don't have a well-research or nuanced understanding of Romani history, so they are incapable of making informed, authentic choices about what a character looks like or what kind of upbringing they might have had. Diversity of representation requires familiarity with Romani diversity.

My immediate answer to that is, as always, to hire Romani talent.

[gingermintpepper]

One of my favourite little things about Apollo is how casual his and the Fates' relationship was.

Now, this isn't to understate how grave the Fates were in any way, as a matter of fact, it's written multiple times about the complex interplay between the Fates and Zeus (Stobaeus even wrote that the Fates were given the seat closest to Zeus' throne so he could better give counsel on all things from their machinations)

Indeed, even Zeus was beholden to them and even though the Fates usually left things up to natural course (and Zeus in his position as Moiragetes - that is, the Leader of Fates could even intercede on these events, even interrupting when a someone was set to die) in a lot of ways, there are many, many things that even Zeus could never interfere with, things that were above even the King of the Heavens. Some really good examples are things like Persephone's Abduction which the Fates ruled as necessary for the propagation of the seasons and his marriages to Themis and Hera.

By all accounts really, the Fates were incredibly stern, incredibly grave deities who presided over law, order, birth and death and even worked with the Furies to punish those who broke the sacred laws!

And then you have Apollo who was also known by the title Moiragetes (In Delphi, there were only two Moirai depicted and in place of the third was Zeus and Apollo Moiragetes according to Pausanias) but who did things like, checks notes, send the Fates to be the midwives of his paramour Evadne when she had to deliver his son alone in secret (by the way, he also sent the actual goddess of childbirth to help. The Fates absolutely did not need to also be there, he was taking every precaution:

and get the Fates drunk so they would agree to save his bestie Admetus' life:

Keep in mind btw - this con Apollo pulled for Admetus was multi-layered and even included getting Heracles to wrestle Thanatos and keep him still so Apollo could proceed to help Admetus cheat Alcestis away from Fates when Admetus expressed regret for making his wife die in his place:

And I cannot stress enough that Apollo faced zero consequences for this nonsense. NONE. The Fates weren't even cordial with other Gods - they're almost never referred to directly, they were often depicted apart from other deities or described as old, ugly and unable to walk (though, generally speaking they were artistically depicted as young maidens!) and apart from comforting Demeter by going to personally explain what happened to Persephone in some versions of the story, they didn't really get humanised the way most of the other gods or spirits did. Usually they're referred to euphemistically, or someone will speak distantly about a prophecy they once heard was designed by the Fates but Apollo? Apollo knew the Fates! He was good friends with the Fates! And I think it's even cooler when you consider that both instances of Apollo showing off his Fate's Favourite privilege have to deal with birth (of Iamus) and death (of Alcestis/Admetus) which were the two points most deeply associated with the Moirai and why there were usually depictions of them as a pair over that of a triad.

(Excerpts sourced from Theoi, Aeschylus' Eumenides, Pindar's Olympian 6 and Statius' Silvae; though just a note, one instance of the Fates' involvement with Apollo is misquoted on Theoi - that is the Fates being present for Apollo's birth, that's actually a misinterpretation of Evadne's birthing of Iamus.)

[rudolphsboyfriend]

I think my favourite greek tragedies are the ones that. Sum up human nature in all its beauty and grit and ugliness and love and idk if what I'm saying makes sense but. Orpheus turning back to look at Eurydice. Icarus flying too close to the sun. Achilles sending Patroclus to his death in his own armour.

You get it you get the themes you get the poetry tattooed on the skin of all these stories. Humans at their best. at their worst. Humans existing and feeling and tragedy arising from the desperation that is so inherent to human emotion.

[boofindoopin]

Just realized I have a Greek mythology account and only talk about Ares frequently, and I’m pretty sure you guys don’t even know I have another favorite 😅

____________________________________________

I’ve always been extremely fascinated with the idea of death. To me, for some strange morbid reason,I find the idea of passing away intriguing and comforting. I’m not suicidal or anything, I’m not actively trying to die. It’s just, if I died right now, I would be at peace with that.

I think that why when I got into Greek mythology (like actually, not my dreaded middle school PJO phase) I was drawn towards a lot of the chthonic gods. At first, I was kind of one of the Hades obsessed ‘He can do nothing wrong!’ people. Then, I actually read more sources and realized he isn’t the coolest. Don’t get me wrong, I still like Hades, he’s just not my favorite anymore.

Then, I stumbled upon Thanatos (or Thanatus, depends on how you spell it :>) And It was practically love at first Theoi.com reading.

Then, like a year later, I learned about Hades, I play it now. Love that Thanatos aswell. But, I know that myth Thanatos and media portrayals of Thanatos are very different.

Also I CAN’T FIND ANY MYTHS WITH HIM 😭😭 ALL I HAVE IS SISYPHUS AND THAT ONE PART OF THE ILLIAD! If you guys have any myths, or better sources than Theoi.com, I’ll accept them gratefully.

Anyways, I’ve loved Thanatos for about 2 years and no one knew. I know almost nothing about him, due to the fact I’m a newcomer to Greek mythology, but I love him anyways.

Expect more Thanatos content :D

[detectivenyx]

"twilight was a deeply anti-indigenous text with an abusive power-imbalance masquerading as a romance story written by a mormon and it was weird when white people tried to rehabilitate it" and "a lot of contemporary criticism of twilight boiled down to homophobia and misogyny and wanting to keep some kind of purity in a constantly-changing vampire mythos" coexist.

also donation link to the Quileute Move To Higher Ground initiative