#pervasive drive for autonomy

[sideblogformentalhealtshit]

Am I the only one who despises "pervasive drive for autonomy" as an alternative to "pathological demand avoidance"?

PDA takes away so much of my ability to decide for myself what to do; it robs me of my autonomy. I struggle with doing things I enjoy because I make them into demands in my head, I can't watch weekly-airing shows because I tell myself that I have to, that I love this show, that I need to watch the next episode, and then no longer being able to. Because my brain has decided that it just Must go into fight or flight because... I am trying to decide what to do.

It just feels... gross, I guess, to dress it up as "i just have a strong sense of autonomy, i just don't like being told what to do ^_^" when it is genuinely disabling to me, not just in when other people try to influence me, but also when I want to do something and PDA prevents me.

[autball]

Actual footage.

(Image description: A 4 panel cartoon by Autball.

1: Logic (a blue cube) says, “Hey guys. You know how the feet have been getting cold at night and making it hard to sleep?” Executive Function (a silver gear) and Inertia (a purple sphere) reply, “Yeah,” while PDA (a red spiky figure) stares back silently. Logic continues, “Well, what if we think ahead and put on some socks *before* we get into bed tonight?”

2: Executive function smiles and says, “Yeah, that makes sense. I can just add it to my bedtime to-do list.” Inertia smiles and adds, “and I’m already up putting on pajamas, so it’s easy enough to just grab some socks too.” PDA has one raised eyebrow and says, “Yeah, I don’t know. I mean, I don’t like the way the feet are trying to hold us hostage with this ‘keep me warm or I won’t let you sleep’ bullshit. I say we stand our ground and tell ‘em to make do with the blanket.”

3: Logic says, “Okay, that’s reeaally not what’s going on here though…” Inertia adds, “Come on, you know how much I hate getting up when I’m already-“ PDA interjects, “Nope. Blanket’s enough.” Executive Function frowns.

4: A white box at the top reads, “30 MINUTES LATER…” PDA, Logic, Inertia, and Executive Function are all lying awake in their beds. PDA angrily says, “Fine, go get your precious socks. I can’t sleep with these cold feet.” Inertia gives side-eye and says, “You’re a real asshole, you know that?” Executive Function flips PDA the bird.)

[raincamp]

11 03 2023

discovering that i experience pathological demand avoidance / pervasive drive for autonomy (PDA) as a symptom of my autism has been fucking life changing.

i spent all these fucking years feeling so helpless, my parents telling me that im lazy, feeling like a failure because i couldnt even graduate highschool. i didnt understand how everyone else could just sit back and waste their entire lives at the demand of someone else. how they could work 40+ hours a week and not come home so exhausted that they can't even find time to take care of themselves.

i couldn't find a justifiable reason why i was physically unable to do what everyone else has been able to "just suck it up" and suffer through. working full time, being at school full time, it was all enough to make me lose sight of why i was even alive. enough to make me have mental crises. enough that i ended up in the hospital several times.

but idk, im fine when i have control over my schedule. i was thriving during COVID when school was no longer a thing i was forced to do, but something i got to choose to do. nobody was making me sit in a building for 6 hours bored out of my mind. i got autonomy over my schedule, over my life, and i genuinely haven't been able to recreate the feeling of freedom it gave me since.

and when i was forced to go to school again, despite how easy it was, despite the fact that i barely had to do anything, the mere idea of having to sit in a classroom against my will made me burn with such rage that i made it so that i had autonomy over it. i would only come to classes i wanted to go to, which meant going to school three hours late and walking out when the class was over.

now obviously thats not how highschool works so i had to drop out. after a lovely (/s) visit to the psych ward my parents stopped giving a fuck. but then it was my choice to get a diploma/GED which i had zero problem doing, i was happy to do it even. why didnt i just sit through the last 6 months of school instead? idk, to me it felt like fucking torture.

i still feel that way, working full time. working part time even. i hate it because i want nothing more than to enjoy having a career like everyone else can. to be able to have a life outside of work, a fulfilling one even. ive never been able to do that. and it saddens me. why is it that everyone around me can find happiness in working their entire lives away but not me? why do i come home everyday wanting to die? why am i the only one who sees it as an injustice that my entire life is going to be spent at the whims of someone else's demands?

i burn with helplessness and anger and pain at the mere thought. but still i suffer through as many months as i can handle at jobs until i have enough money to last me a couple months of freedom. even though i have to sacrifice my mental stability for it. even though it means hospital visits and alcohol dependency and suicide attempts.

a perfect life for me doesn't include not working though, not working feels unfulfilling, i want to make a living for myself. i want to be financially independent. i dont even mind working 8 hours a day if i got to choose my schedule. if i could wake up one day and say "nah ill wait till 2 pm to start work today" or could start work at 7 am when i wanted, take as many days off as i wanted, which honestly wouldn't be a whole lot because i find value in productivity.

its the fact that i have to follow the demands of someone else that sucks the life out of me.

and now that i have this knowledge i can learn how to use it to accommodate my struggles instead of feeling like a fuck up

- andrew

[lilac-set]

If anyone has any sort of tips on how to make pathological demand avoidance easier at all please let me know

[missmitchieg]

PDA autism explained (skit)

[a-queer-little-wombat]

The Puritans fucked up the USA so deeply hardcore for this, and Catholics are right there with them. FUCK THEM BATCHES, STOP SUFFERING. DO THINGS HOWEVER MAKES THEM TOLERABLE, IF NOT FUN.

Start playing Pokémon Go to have a reason to go walking. Get an under-desk bike.

Use that sunscreen that sprays on or us in a stick or whatever works for your sensory issues.

Make stir-fry vegetables. Look into baked salads. Make pie. Batch cook. Find someone on social media posting cooking/recipes that you like and subscribe/follow them so you've got a background feed of ideas for vegetables. Frozen vegetables are Just Fine, use em. Cut up your carrots/celery/etc into snack sizes and bag/box em in your fridge for easy grabbing.

Buy a cool pill case for your meds (mine isn't even fancy but it has helped SO MUCH, even if refilling it is still annoying).

Set the meds alarm on your phone to say "thanks for taking care of you" when you (finally) hit "done". It's fucking ridiculous but it tricks your brain into the dopamine instead of just "stop bothering me, alarm".

....

And yet, uh, some of this is also like "have you tried being neurotypical?" because some things you just can't make fun or even tolerable. Like fucking phone calls. I'll do nearly anything to NOT make a phone call.

PDA sucks a whole lot, y'all.

Sometimes I want to do the thing, I need to do the thing, but NOPE. No amount of planners, to-do lists, alarms, reminders, whatever will make me able to do the thing.

Hey btw, here's a piece of life advice:

If you know what you'd have to do to solve a problem, but you just don't want to do it, your main problem isn't the problem itself. Your problem is figuring out how to get yourself to do the solution.

If your problem is not eating enough vegetables, the problem you should be solving is "how do I make vegetables stop being yucky". If your problem is not getting enough exercise, the problem you should be solving is "how do I make exercise stop sucking ass". You're not supposed to just be doing things that are awful and suck all the time forever, you're supposed to figure out how to make it stop being so awful all the time.

I used to hate wearing sunscreen because it's sticky and slimy and disgusting and it feels bad and it smells bad, so I neglected to wear it even if I needed to. Then I found one that isn't like that, and doesn't smell and feel gross. Problem solved.

There is no correct way to live that's just supposed to suck and feel bad all the time. You're allowed to figure out how to make it not suck so bad.

[a-queer-little-wombat]

I remain very unsure if it was for the better or to my detriment that I was homeschooled during the years they do the 'gifted' testing, so I didn't get put into those groups when I went back to public for 5th grade.

On the one hand, I did ... not test well when I was going back, and my spelling was appallingly bad. Being in with 'mainstream' kids gave me a chance to catch up on all that without as much pressure. (Took me a couple months.)

On the other hand, when I caught up with the gifted nerds in middle/high school, it was nice to be around people I could at least *nerd* with. I was deeply *weird* as a kid/tween/teen, not just because of (undiagnosed) neurodivergence, but because my primary socialization in most of my elementary years was with *adults* and because I read a lot of YA and adult sci-fi and fantasy (and this was the 80s so, uh, mature themes abounded). My interactions with the mainstream kids were awkward AF because we were fundamentally different.

Anyway, nearly fifty and still undiagnosed, still unmedicated, and pretty much a washed-up useless housewife and parent to the deeply weird, neurodivergent child I'm homeschooling, so ... yeah.

people misunderstand what ‘gifted kid’ actually means but it’s ok it’s fine it’s cool it’s good

[autball]

And Did You Know…that that is part of the reason why “appears comfortable in role play and pretend” became a “key criteria” for PDA? (PDA = Pathological Demand Avoidance, or Pervasive Drive for Autonomy.)

For a long time it was considered an essential part of PDA, but it was changed to “optional” not too long ago. And for good reason. We know now that plenty of autistic people do engage in imaginative play and role play, AND that not all PDAers do.

While role play is very often just for fun, no matter who you are, it can also sometimes be used as a coping mechanism. It can be used to get out of things, or to make it easier to get through something challenging, or even as a way to mask.

It’s not always a cause for concern, but if you find your person (or yourself) spending more time as someone/something else than as themselves (or yourself), it might be a sign that some changes are needed. For example, you may need to lower stress/demands, or you may to ensure there are more places where they feel safe being themselves.

But again, it’s not always a bad thing! If your child does use role play as a way to cope or avoid things, it’s okay to just go with it in the moment. If it helps them get through doing a hard thing, just play along! If they use it to try and “get out of something,” hear that they’re telling you they can’t handle it for some reason. Maybe there’s something in their way that you could help with, or maybe they just need you to back off right now.

This is talked about a lot more in the PDA community than in the wider autistic community, so hopefully this brings awareness to people who haven’t yet come across it. But I do wanna reiterate that it is not all PDAers and not only PDAers who use role play in this way (or at all). So don’t let anyone try to tell you that you or your kid is or isn’t something over this particular trait alone.

(Image description in Alt Text.)

[a-queer-little-wombat]

This thread is eight years old, and in that time a concept has filtered across the pond that might be worth looking into for folks that this post feels relevant for: Pathological Demand Avoidance, aka (from some folks with it) Pervasive Drive for Autonomy.

The traits which make up PDA in the UK diagnostic end up in the US diagnostic as ODD - Oppositional Defiant Disorder. Which is to say, once again the US defines a neurotype by how other people perceive it rather than how it feels internally. [eyeroll]

Executive dysfunction life hack

Instead of telling yourself, “I should get up,” or “I should do this,”

Ask yourself, “When will I get up?” or “When will I be ready to do this?”

Instead of trying to order yourself to feel the signal to do something, which your brain is manifestly bad at, listen to yourself with compassionate curiosity and be ready to receive the signal to move when it comes.

[maevesweirdart]

i hate hate hate having PDA (pathological demand avoidance/pervasive drive for autonomy). at work. at school. at home. everyone is like “do the thing” and i’m like “…… k” because i *want* to be able to do the thing, and i know everyone *expects* me to do it, and *all i want* is for people to see me as a trustworthy adult and not flaky or lazy, and i just. can’t???

i’ve been told i’m “making excuses” so so so so many times. eventually i started to internalize it. i tell myself that now. it doesn’t help.

[skyiedior]

It is my conviction that misogyny has been ingrained as the fundamental and default condition of societal structures, as evidenced by the equilibrium it maintains between the oppressed and the oppressors. moreover, I contend that patriarchy was not merely a system that emerged at a particular point in time, but rather a pervasive framework that existed long before the term itself was coined. the act of naming such phenomena, I believe, serves to reduce their inherent complexity, as language inherently simplifies the intricate and multifaceted nature of human existence.

women often engage in intense self-policing, scrutinizing each other's behaviors and thoughts. while men largely escape similar scrutiny, free to exist without the same societal expectations.

patriarchy, in many ways, seems poised to endure because of deeply ingrained desires rooted in biological and societal expectations. women, by and large, seek providers and protectors, a reflection of both evolutionary instincts and the traditional roles that have long been imposed on them.

similarly, men often seek companionship that fulfills their sexual desires and the ability to pass on their genes. this biological drive, coupled with societal norms, continues to shape male behavior and relationship dynamics. these roles—women as nurturers and dependents, men as providers and protectors—are so deeply woven into the fabric of society that even as individual autonomy and gender equality progress, the underlying structures of patriarchy remain largely intact. It feels as though these fundamental human drives ensure patriarchy's persistence as the default social order.

partriachy is not going anywhere ,it's here to stay

[lyle-and-erik-menendez]

Monsters was a grotesque parody and deserves no awards. Nor does anyone who participated or who is associated with the show. The show took the story of Lyle and Erik Menendez, who are survivors of emotional, physical and sexual abused, and completely maligned the real people involved. Neither Erik or especially Lyle Menendez deserved the mockery and character assassination that Ryan Murphy did for them. Not all publicity is good publicity and quite frankly to see people close to brothers praise this show and the actors involved has been disappointing to say the least. Here we stand with our principles above all else. We understand how pervasive the media narrative can be, especially when you don't have the autonomy to tell your own story. Lyle and Erik were tried by court of public opinion more than 30 years ago and it is through their dedication and life of service that they have managed to turn that reputation around. I personally could not imagine associating with people who participating in the mockery of my so called friends, family members or loved one. To me that shows a lack of care for the brothers and their well being.

If you support Monsters, then you support the intent of the show which was made to drive division about the Menendez case. Which includes all the players involved. Everyone is using the brothers for their own agenda and it cannot stand.

We do not need the elites, this is a movement that is by the people, for the people. This is a movement for the voiceless and the unheard. Why do we care about your bourgeois ideals? But once again, Hollywood has shown that it cares little for the victims of crime.

[a-queer-little-wombat]

While I agree with prev and thus am reblogging from there, I want all of you neurodivergent folks who identify with the first example to go look up PDA. That's Pathological Demand Avoidance, often called Pervasive Drive for Autonomy by folks with it.

It's a real thing, if only in the UK and not in the USA where we define neurodivergent flavors by which way they annoy the NTs. In the USA, you're more likely to get tagged ODD (Oppositional Defiant Disorder) and subjected to ABA trauma.

Tumblr: Only neurotypical people do X. Neurodivergent people never do X. It's literally never necessary to do X, and if you do, you are by definition acting out of malice.

Neurodivergent person whose neurodivergence primarily expresses itself as X:

[the-cat-and-the-birdie]

Hey all!!

I've been trying to write this post for forever but uhhh yes I suppose it's a lot easier to do a quick primer first but uhh

I'm so so sorry I don't answer asks! And I want to change that soon.

[a LONG post about autism, blog updates, and PDA]

TL;DR: I have Pathological Demand Avoidance, but I'm growing from it and hope to become more social on here in the near future!

If you've seen me asks or messages, I promise I don't hate you!! I love you!! I'm so serious

Soon I plan on making a longer post explaining what I've been preoccupied with, and also changes I want to make to this blog in the near future (all small and good!)

But to put it shortly -

I've been suffering from Pathological Demand Avoidance SO HARD and it's been something I've struggled with for some time.

If you don't know Pathological Demand Avoidance - or more accurately named Pervasive Drive for Autonomy - is a profile of autism:

In short though - because asked to do something, ANYTHING, even indirectly makes my brain stall. I know it sounds ridiculous.

It's not even in a cute anarchist 'I don't have to listen to you!!' type of way. Fam it's. EVERYTHING.

It's not so much the activity that's triggering it. I LOVE talking to people so much, but... like, speaking in conversation is like a demand. Someone calling my name is a demand, doing homework, showing up to places on time, brushing my teeth everyday etc.

It's often why young children with autism may not respond to you talking to them, say 'I can't do x, my legs don't work!!', hide when expected to do things, literally REFUSE to go to school (big me thing), etc.

It's linked to the diagnosis (and misdiagnosis) of 'Oppositional Defiance Disorder'.

That's why I may seem very extroverted (which I am!! ILY!!!) but I don't ever appear to talk to anybody or react to them.

For example - It's more likely for me to add to a tag game if I'm not tagged because when I am, I feel really happy to be thought of but then 'Oh God I have to do a thing. Not right now but soon. The thing I have to do. That eventually must be done. I have committed and I must Do Something. Me doing the thing is approaching. The inevitable thing. That must be done. The inescapable thing'.

ON & ON regardless of what it is. I'm not opposed to doing whatever it is, the demand could be completely self-imposed. I'm just opposed to doing something.

Anything preplanned, asked, or expected of me.

That's why I often abandon fics, or say I'll write an essay and then don't do it. I still remember, but finishing the essay becomes a self imposed demand and then.. I can't do it lol

All in all - this can kinda make notifications really hard for me.

@spidey-bie can tell you, even in discord I'm a little lurking gremlin who is only summoned at inopportune moments and when someone has pissed me off

Usually, my response is ALWAYS flight. I may like an ask or message and enjoy it, even have a response in mind - but instead of answer my immediate reaction to is abort mission and FULLY close the app and find the nearest corner, or try my best to appear offline.

IT'S WEIRD.

I have no idea if others will understand what I'm trying to convey because I know the concept may sound bizarre, and I get that. It really was a concept I only really learned about recently.

But that's why I mean seem very talkative and hyperverbal and bubbly but also like never appear to be social with anyone ever.

PDA is like -

Me: oh wow this person is so sweet. I consider them a friend, I should message them back.

My brain: Yeah.

Me:... message them back.

My brain: fuck you. anyway write an essay literally no one demanded

Me: Why? Can I at least write that fic that I left hanging for eight months

My brain: No someone complimented you on that once and now there's Demand. Write something 100% unrelated.

Me: *starts writing an essay no one asked for and doesn't even finish it because finishing it has become a demand even though I'm the only one who even knows the essay exists in the first place*

Like girl be so fr. Even saying this I feel like it sounds like a lie 😭 I got Hobie brain. Some old 'I'll do it but not because you told me to' headass.

I'm Miguel and my brain wanna 'Nah imma do my own thing' on some Miles shit.

Guess how many drafts I have. Guess. WRONG. TWO HUNDRED.

Nah be forreal is that normal? Y'all got that or nah? Is that common I'm being deadass 😭😭

And girl I'm not even gonna show the number in my inbox cause I'd rather be tarred and feathered than indure that humiliation imma be honest 😐 rather be burned at the stake

But I know that me being so active and like... Not Responding can be very hurtful and I'm so sorry!!

Though I know that didn't make up for it. I know it can make me come off as fake or mean but that's not my intention at all, I promise.

Honestly I just have a brain where everyday feels like opposite day.

But I'm a grown ass person and uh!! I want to change that response.

So please don't stop replying or tagging me in things! I genuinely do love it 💖

This blog is really one of my favorite places in planet Earth and I love this community SO SO MUCH.

Going forward I want to invest more time here and just meta writing in specific.

I'm thinking (girl I'm phrasing this SO CAREFULLY so my brain doesn't think it's a demand like shh I hope the autism doesn't hear me) -

I'd like to maybe designate a day for asks to be answered/queued (as many as I can pump out) because I really love talking with y'all and y'all have SUCH good ideas

I'm hoping to do more Spidersona stuff but I'MA HAVE TO PACE MYSELF OKAY that's not a Demand autism we're just having nice hopeful thoughts NOT A DEMAND

So uhh I don't know how I'll encorporate more Spidersona stuff but yeah... It'll happen.

Other stuff too. Other stuff.

[Notice how I have to be like 'I'm hoping, I'm thinking, I might, I'd like to,'. I'm ALLERGIC to 'I will' 🤢🤢🤢]

I plan on making another life update post just to clear up some things maybe talk more specifics. I'm thinking Tuesdays or Thursdays -

I'll most likely close my ask just to pump out the asks that are still relevant time wise.

I'd also like to take more about PDA in short posts of if anyone is interested. Honestly, I think there are some advantages to PDA.

YES I HEADCANON HOBIE AS HAVING IT.

I DON'T FOLLOW ORDERS NEITHER DOES HE.

Save me Hobie.. Hobie save me (I be using him to internally justify my PDA.. 'like Hobie wouldn't want me to answer this linkdin email' 😭😭)

BUT UHHHH If you read this far and you're still here I LOVE YOU YOU MEAN SO MUCH TO ME HOBIE BE UPON YE

I truly appreciate you, thank you for hearing me out!

Hobie says remember to be a public nuisance and never cooperate with anything and leave the function early and steal

I'm gonna go do something that doesn't matter and that no one asked for that I probably won't finish for no reason :) (/pos)

Bye.

[canwediscuss]

Just so my opinion on abortion is clear: education on it is abysmal because abortion is profitable. Pregnancy is riskier now than pre modern medicine because it is profitable. Abortion is a tool of the capitalist oligarchy and has been used to keep women as working force for company profit and has also been used for eugenics. Most of the time, there is no real autonomy because there is no real informed choice. Propaganda is more pervasive and persuasive than most people think.

I don't think all abortion is wrong, there are certain scenarios that it is the correct answer. However I also think that a majority of abortions are a clumsy reactive solution when there are so many better alternatives with a little forethought and intelligence.

I am absolutely dismissive of the majority of pro choicers because they pursue abortion to the detriment of other solutions because it's holy to them, despite what they claim about it being "a free option."

There is simply a biological drive to reproduce. If you need proof of that you need to touch grass. Pregnancy is not ever a punishment but it is a consequence. I have still never heard a good reason to abort when other options abound on every level. Hence my opinion that women should at least try lesbianism and that most pro choicers are addicted to dick- they don't like the fact that you can opt out of pregnancy without sacrificing a baby and occasionally your own body.

[boredtechnologist]

"Signalis," an indie survival horror game, draws players into a haunting, dystopian world where the line between humanity and machinery is blurred, and the concept of free will is constantly questioned. Central to the game's narrative is the phrase "None of us are here by choice," a powerful statement that encapsulates the existential themes of the game. This analysis will delve into the implications of this phrase, exploring how it reflects the characters' struggles with agency, identity, and the oppressive systems that govern their lives.

Choice and Agency: "Signalis" immerses players in a bleak, retro-futuristic world where characters, primarily synthetic beings with human-like qualities, are trapped in a cycle of duty and survival. The phrase "None of us are here by choice" serves as a thematic cornerstone, suggesting that the characters’ presence in this world, and their roles within it, are dictated by forces beyond their control. This lack of choice highlights the game's exploration of agency—whether the characters, or by extension the players, have any true autonomy in their actions or are merely following predetermined paths.

Transition to the Loss of Identity and Free Will: As players progress through "Signalis," the narrative reveals that the characters, particularly the protagonist, struggle with a fractured sense of identity. They are synthetic beings, engineered to serve specific purposes, with memories and emotions that may not be their own. This artificiality strips them of the ability to choose their paths in life, as their actions are heavily influenced, if not entirely dictated, by their programming and the roles imposed upon them. The statement "None of us are here by choice" thus resonates with the characters’ existential dread, as they grapple with the realization that their sense of self and autonomy might be nothing more than an illusion.

The Oppressive Systems and Lack of Choice: The world of "Signalis" is governed by a cold, bureaucratic regime that views its synthetic inhabitants as tools to be used rather than beings with agency. This oppressive system further reinforces the notion that none of the characters are present by choice. They are created, assigned roles, and expected to fulfill their duties without question. The game’s environment—a series of bleak, industrial landscapes filled with broken machinery and lifeless corridors—reflects the dehumanizing nature of this system. The absence of choice becomes a pervasive element, driving home the sense of entrapment and futility experienced by the characters.

The Psychological Impact of Lack of Choice: The realization that their lives are devoid of true choice has a profound psychological impact on the characters in "Signalis." This theme echoes existentialist ideas, particularly those of Jean-Paul Sartre, who argued that the recognition of one’s lack of control can lead to a crisis of identity and meaning. The characters' struggles with their roles, the haunting repetition of their tasks, and the oppressive nature of their environment all contribute to a deep sense of despair and nihilism. The phrase "None of us are here by choice" becomes a mantra that underscores the game’s exploration of these existential anxieties.

The Enduring Significance of Choice: "Signalis" is a game that uses its haunting narrative and atmospheric design to delve into the complexities of choice, or rather, the absence of it. The phrase "None of us are here by choice" encapsulates the characters’ struggles with agency, identity, and the dehumanizing systems that control their existence. Through its exploration of these themes, the game offers a profound commentary on the nature of free will and the psychological toll of living in a world where choice is an illusion. This analysis highlights how "Signalis" uses its narrative to challenge players to reflect on their own perceptions of agency and the systems that shape their lives, making it a deeply introspective and thought-provoking experience.