#pan discourse mention

[purpurussy]

I feel like the "dan is bi" anon is trolling but just in case they're genuinely confused: yes dan said in BIG that he loved and felt attracted to his high school gf (although he also made it pretty clear that they did not have sex so idk where anon is getting the idea that he has slept with "multiple women" 💀), and he alluded to his attraction not being confined to a specific gender in the part where he talked about labels, but you're completely taking all of that wildly out of context and missing the point of the whole video by calling him bi. I feel like this is probably the part that's frying their brain:

(shoutout to the legend @goldenpinof for this transcript!)

But firstly, imo it was very clear from BIG, as well as other stuff he's said over the years, that he just doesn't like labels. Which I find very valid, it took me a long time to figure out how to label myself. I still don't know what my gender is lmao but I started saying "bi" for my sexuality because it's a widely-used term that gets the point across. And I think that's the thing here: he came to the conclusion that the labels "gay" and "queer" are the best descriptors of his identity, which do the most accurate job of approximating something extremely psychologically complex and multilayered and nuanced in a simple everyday term that gets the point across to other people.

Obviously words mean things and it doesn't make sense to just pick a label at random (like for example it wouldn't make sense for me to identify as a lesbian, since I definitely feel attraction to men as well as women and everything outside the binary, and am interested in acting on that attraction at times, so I wouldn't be conveying accurate information to other people if I used the label lesbian for myself) but a label is just supposed to serve the task of conveying relevant information to other people (if a lesbian feels some kind of abstract attraction to dan and phil, that doesn't mean that the alphabet council needs to immediately revoke their lesbian card!! Since the word "lesbian" still does a perfectly good job of conveying relevant information to other people. Likewise if a straight dude has a fun little gay dalliance with his college roommate, but has absolutely 0 interest in men beyond that incident, it wouldn't be remotely necessary for him to start calling himself bi if he didn't want to, because what would be the point in that if he's only interested in women? Like if he told a gay dude who found him attractive that he's bi, only to backtrack... Do you see what I'm saying here?). It's perfectly valid for Dan to use "gay" and "queer" as umbrella terms that in his opinion do the best job of describing him, out of the language that's available. If he's like essentially a kinsey >5 and decided to just round it off to a 6 at this point, who are you to tell him he can't lmao

(shoutout to the legend @goldenpinof for this transcript!

Human sexuality is often way too complicated to boil it down to a single label in a way that doesn't erase any of its nuance, and I feel like this is something he's struggled with in the past, especially with him being a public figure. He's mentioned multiple times that feeling like he had to choose a label was a factor that prolonged his decision to come out.

And this is not even getting into the impact that his trauma from his childhood and also from spending a chunk of his formative years in the public eye probably had on the way he identifies or the way he chooses to label himself. It clearly took so much courage and strength for him to finally be able to call himself gay/queer please have some respect for our brave troops

Ultimately the point is that he uses the labels "gay" and "queer", not "bi", and it really shouldn't be difficult to respect that. It's also not biphobic for him to choose not use the label "bi" (again speaking as someone who uses that label). It's just that he feels "gay"/"queer" are better descriptors for him and nobody gets to determine that except him!! :) He wants people to know he's gay so he calls himself gay and that's that on that.

There are definitely people on here who are way smarter and more well-educated than me who would've done a much better job eloquently discussing this topic without rambling all over the place but that's my take (if anyone would like to add to this please do so, I'm always open to learn more about topics like this. And I'm also not saying that the way I see it is the only objectively correct opinion, but anon is definitely wrong so 💀). Thank you for coming to my ted talk

[galaxyslime]

It's really fucked up that Teflon pans exist when stainless steel ones do literally the same exact thing if you get them up to temp and use like half a tsp of neutral oil. Literally not even enough oil to calorically affect what you're cooking. Cast iron does the same thing, too. If you're the type of person who buys Teflon pans because your food regularly gets stuck on other pans I'm just going to assume you're ignorant, incurious, and impatient.

[haldenlith]

*stares wearily into the void*

I don't see it super often, but I see it enough to be very tired of "Well actually Astarion doesn't like polyamory, and you should feel bad for forcing him into a polyamorous relationship."

He is literally incredibly supportive in the dialogue to initiate a polyamorous relationship with Halsin. It is right there in the game. In fact, even Astarion's "break-up" dialogues when you initiate a romance with another origin character admit that he's normally okay with polyamorous relationships, his sticking point is the particular person he'd be sharing Tav with. This also further goes against the argument I've seen of "Well actually when he says he's okay with Halsin he's pretending because he's afraid of losing Tav". Astarion is more than willing to break up with Tav if he's not okay with what's going on with the relationship. Stop taking away this man's agency.

I shouldn't be surprised, though. Fandoms love to infantilize their "favorite little meow meow".

Seriously, just say you don't like polyamory. Just say it. It's fine. You're allowed to not like things. You really don't need to create some moral high ground.

I just wish people would just, you know, stop stripping characters of certain traits to fit that. If you don't like the idea of a polyamorous character, Gale, Lae'zel, and Wyll are all right there. Karlach's pretty much the only grey area, given that her response could definitely be taken in a "I'm not super comfortable with the arrangement, but I'm also not comfortable denying you either" way, which is honestly an interesting and nice little show of how messy polyamory can be.

But seriously, I swear, I am so tired of the "you're ucky wucky for doing the poly with Astarion and Halsin" take.

[homophyte]

it is interesting to me that ive seen lately (n yknow this is subjective and likely not any real social force just what ive seen) many queer people simultaneously talking about taking back and embodying unpalatable and ‘unmarketable’ queerness (the recent return to the terms faggot and transsexual come to mind) which i think is pretty evidently shaped by the conservative moment were in of demonizing queer ppl and especially gnc and trans people as predators--it reads as a return to queer isolationism in the face of external hostility, imo--while at the same time ive seen a lot of rallying around the “original” 6 stripe rainbow flag as opposed to any of the purportedly ‘factional’ flags of different queer identities, with the assumption being different identity flags divide us while the rainbow flag encompasses everyone and its kinda fascinating to me bc the rainbow flag is probably the single most marketable and palatable and uncontroversial symbols of queerness which has been seamlessly uptaken by those who wish to sell it back to us as gets pointed out every pride month with all the cringey pride merch.... i dunno you could maybe take that as a point of hypocrisy and claim the queer community is itself in a conservative moment rn where its returning to a sense of history and historical continuity (perhaps even out of that sense of external threat) or even that the queer community has for some time been in a conservative moment given the like, decade of identity discourse and lashing out at any people deemed to not have a sufficiently established history or however we should categorize the bihets/ace discourse/transtrender-tucute discourse/pan discourse/bi lesbians discourse (because lets be frank its essentially all the same discourse just keeping up its momentum by leapfroging from one target to the next) which i think is, like, SOMEWHAT true but not entirely? its more interesting to me, in any case, as an expression of a conflict the queer community is facing given that current state of affairs RE antitransness and that very recent history. like, the simultaneous need to retreat to a safe sense of community which is welcoming to the very things the outer world is demonizing ie mutable gender, complex or contradictory experiences of gender, gender expression which is hostile to the cis binary, but also the ways in which it has to grapple with those discourses which have largely defined the community infighting for again the past decade. its queer people begging the question ‘how can we make the queer community welcoming to the girlfags and genderfucks and tboys who are being threatened when we have spent so much time making the queer community a hostile place for anyone with a non-conventional or not easily (or even just palatably) sortable sense of queer identity’. and the answer it seems to be grappling with at the moment is like, welcoming all that diversity of experience but being absolutely averse to naming it. yes we love all the fuckery with gender and sexuality never be marketable but like, ew, why are you calling yourself [insert microlabel here]. you can be genderweird but you cant call yourself genderweird. you can only exist as queer in the broadest possible way (the all-inclusive gay pride flag!) but if you try to name the specifics or use those identity labels weve been fighting over for years youre doing it wrong (the progress pride flag is now ugly and cringey and ‘too much’). i think theres something also to the way (at least on this site) transmisogynistic discourses have really taken hold as legitimate (though yknow i wont downplay how much a problem transmisogyny has like. always been in queer spaces no matter what) in the name of protecting n defending trans people. like its just regurgitated transmisogyny but its being mobilized supposedly in the service of helping trans people. idk its definitely getting a little late for me to string this together fully coherently but theres a throughline there, in the ways certain ideas are being consolidated and reified as ‘yes were more progressive now!’ when i think theres definitely something to question there in terms of like...are we? are we actually? are we doing better by the people were trying to help or are we setting strict standards and forcing ppl to adhere to them again?

[this-world-of-beautiful-monsters]

just had to unfollow/block someone for boosting bi/pan discourse in the Year Of Our Bored 2024....can we please stop wasting time yammering about the versions of other people's identities we make up in our heads please and thank you.

[zodiac-blood]

I don't like to engage in queer label discourse but tbh the fact I study linguistics absolutely changes how I look at queer discourse so much- cause 90% of it is all just prescriptivist vs descriptivism debates.

#screaming crying trying to explain that words are fluid concepts that can overlap in very inconsistent "vibe-based" ways- and are not tangible static objects with completely consistent logical rules

[leidensygdom]

The ways in which being asexual feels isolating

I've been pondering whether to post this or not, but I figured out I wanted to explain a bit of this experience.

So, I could go on a very long tangent on how being asexual is usually a lonely experience, and how much I've been otherized here and there- Specially in real life. How the same people that claimed to be queer (or allies) had been much weirder about my asexuality than they were about me being bi/pan or whatever.

But I think I wanna talk about how something like that bleeds in every aspect of socializing, even down to something like fandom. I stay away from fandom usually- I like to look at cool fanart and that's about it. I hate discourse, I hate drama, I hate reading people getting worked up because they're treating fanon as canon. But there's one thing I've noticed, over and over, that just sends me off my rails.

And it's how fandom tends to treat asexuality (or aromanticism). So, you get a character in some piece of media that explicitly, unequivocally, states they're either ace, aro, or both. "I do not have interest in a partner", "I don't desire to have sex nor do I enjoy the topic", whatever. And as an ace person, I do appreciate being able to see myself in media- There isn't many chases where something is established that bluntly.

Now, you decide you want to check some fanart for that. Fandoms have this tendency to make absolutely everything about shipping, even when the media they're basing it in does not revolve about that (and it's annoying, because a lot of times people aren't interested in the actual themes- It's all reduced to shipping). Suddenly, you notice people treating the aforementioned character as anything but aro or ace. It's all about shipping. "This person interacted with this other person in a way two friends would, but we gotta make this their entire personality now". Some people may instead go for "well, maybe the character is not having sex, but they're probably an absolute freak about it, studies it extensively, has encyclopedic knowledge about it-"

Now, there's of course sex-favourable aces, and that's completely valid, but it's already straying from what, canonically, the character had mentioned. Asexual or aromantic characters aren't really allowed to exist as themselves. People often see them as a blank slate to fill, to change, to fix. I could talk forever about how people react to real life aces like that. I've had people asking me incredibly invasive questions because they saw my lack of sexual attraction as something broken, something they could fix.

And I hate that! I think I'm allowed to say that I hate that! It's hard and unusual for media to cement an aro/ace character, because they're defined by the lack of interest for something, which is often hard to show. But when it does- No one seems to care. It's all shipping, it's all "well, he's gay in denial", "well, she's probably super repressed". If you took a canonically gay character and made them straight on a fanfic, you'd get angry people. Which is bound to happen when you erase representation that people identify with. But aro/ace characters are NOT even seen as queer, they're not even seen as "representation" by most people. You can erase that bit of it, put some god awful shipping on top, and people will applaud you. And it sucks!

I wish people would see being aro or ace as an identity worth respecting, not an identity that needs overwriting. It feels a bit too close to how people often treat aro/aces irl, and it sucks. It reeks of this sort of exclusionism, where "aro/aces are technically queer but it's queer lite at best, it's less interesting than being gay, and we kinda don't want them near us anyhow". Again, I've had far worse experiences about being ace than I have about not being straight.

Sorry if the post got long, but I hope this experience may at least resonate with other people who have been struggling with this, too. It has always felt just kind of lonely to be ace, and see how little people do even consider it an identity, even when it comes down to something like fandom.

[anotherhumaninthisworld]

Do we know the favorite books that the French revolution figures liked to read? (It could be anyone, Robespierre or Saint just or Louis xvi it doesn't matter).

Much like this old ask about revolutionaries’ favorite dishes, I can’t say I know of any instance of someone exclaiming: ”this is 100% my favorite book,” but at tops people mentioning books that they thought were good or bad:

In his memoirs, Brissot writes he’s picking up Rousseau’s Confessions for the sixth time, so I guess that could qualify as a favorite book? send help

We have this list of books seized at Robespierre’s place after his death.

According to the memoirs of Élisabeth Duplay, Robespierre would read ”the works of Corneille, Voltaire and Rousseau” for her family in the evenings.

In a short biography over Desmoulins written in 1834, Marcellin Matton claims his favorite book was René Aubert de Vertot’s Histoire des révolutions arrivées dans le gouvernement de la République romaine (1719), of which he always carried a copy. Matton is an infamous romanticizer it’s from him we have the stupid leave myth for example, but I’m willing to give him some leeway here since he could have obtained the information from Camille’s mother-in-law and sister-in-law, who were his friends:

In one of his first classes, he received Vertot's Révolutions romaines as a prize. Reading this work transported him with admiration; in the future, he always had a volume in his pocket. It was for him an indispensable companion, it was his vade mecum. He used or lost at least twenty volumes. It is perhaps to this excellent work and to the particular work that he did on the discourses of Cicero and especially on his Philippics, that we owe the lively and sharp style which distinguishes all the writings coming from the pen of Camille .

Desmoulins was however less fond of Rousseau’s Confessions, in number 55 (December 1790) of Révolutions de France et de Brabant he admits that he abandoned the book after getting infuriated by it:

Not that I idolize J.J. as I did in the past, since I saw in his Confessions that he had become an aristocrat in his old age. How far he was from looking at an Alexander with the pride of this Cynic, to whom he is compared, and how painfully I saw that he united the opposite faults of Diogenes and Arisippus! It is a pleasant thing to hear the author of the Social Contract protest in his Confessions about the simplicity of the commerce of such great lords (M. and Madame de Luxembourg) he cries with joy, he wants to kiss the feet of this good marshal, because he wanted to accompany one of his friends, an office clerk, for a walk. Is there anything smaller, more ridiculous? I received, he says elsewhere, the greatest honor that a man can receive, the visit of the Prince de Conti, (an honor that Rousseau shared with all the girls of the Palais-Royal.) At this point I tossed away the book out of spite, and I admit, that I had to reread the speech on equality of conditions, and Julie's novel, in order to not hate the philosopher of Geneva, like Durosoy and Mallet du Pan; for the same principles, in the mouth of such a great man, are more condemnable and worthy of aversion than in the mouths of our two gazetteers, whom God created poor in spirit, and predestined as such to the kingdom of heaven.

In a diary kept over the summer of 1788, Lucile Desmoulins mentions reading L’Âge d’Or (1782) by Sylvain Maréchal (of which she also copied two verses, Le Trésor and Le contrat de mariage devant la nature, in a notebook the year earlier), Les Idylles et poèmes champêtres (1762) by Salomon Gessner, L’Hymne au soleil, suivi de plusieurs morceaux du même genre qui n’ont point encore paru (1782) by Abbé de Reyrac (where she wrote down the verse La Gelée d’avril), Nouvelles lettres anglaises, ou Histoire du Chevalier Grandisson (1754) by Samuel Richardson and  Les Noces patriarchales, poëme en prose en cinq chants (1777) by Robert Martin Lesuire.

In his memoirs, Buzot mentions enjoying the works of Rousseau and Plutarch:

With what charms I still remember this happy period of my life which can no longer return, when, during the day, I silently roamed the mountains and woods of the city where I was born, reading with delight some works of Plutarch or of Rousseau, or recalling to my memory the most precious features of their morality and their philosophy. Sometimes, sitting on the flowering grass, in the shade of some thick trees, I indulged, in a sweet melancholy, in the memories of the sorrows and the pleasures which had in turn agitated the first days of my life. Often the cherished works of these two good men had occupied or maintained my vigils with a friend of my age whom death took from me at thirty, and whose memory, always dear and respected, has preserved from many errors!

Wow any chance you can sound even more like an 18th century man stereotype, Buzot?

…and that’s basically all I can come up with for the moment. But add on if you know anything more! @louis-antoine-leon-saint-just @lazarecarnot maybe you would like to share your favorite books with us if you have any?

[centrally-unplanned]

I blogged before about this company, Orange, that is an AI-powered manga translation company. Essentially, their pitch is that most manga is still (officially) untranslated, a ton of manga gets made after all but few become mainstream enough to get ported overseas. They posit the barrier to that is the cost of translation; if they could automate that process, then they can make viable for release what previously was not. That concept rests on two questions - does the tech pan out, and does the economics add up?

Recently they went live, under the name Emaqi, so we can better explore those questions. What I notice on first glance is the pitch seems to have shifted a little bit in post:

You are not the translators of Vinland Saga, Witch Hat Atelier, or Magic Knight Rayearth, very obviously so. They have Sailor Moon in here lol. These are just the official translations being cross-listed into their "manga platform", where you buy it there and it lives, DRM-locked, in their app. Which is fair enough as a model, that is just Kindle, it works. Though Kindle and a dozen others already exist, so their value-add has to be the AI translation stuff right? That is why I would choose this over another app.

Which they do have, though it is kind of buried:

"Only on emaqi" - there is no mention of the translation approach, poor guys! Can't fault the branding decision I guess given the state of the discourse. When it comes to the products themselves, I went through ~6 or so of the sample chapters of different manga, did a few spot checks with the original Japanese, and read the reviews of some others who looked into it. They seem fine! I am cautiously impressed, I think there proofers did a good job smoothing out some edges, it has a "manga tone", and while small issues like the hyphenation the reviewer above mentioned do exist and are legit noticeable, they aren't common and not a huge deal. It has flow issues? Some dialogue should link together in how it is written, but doesn't. But it isn't crazy off or anything. You will not be wowed by these, but certainly if you are someone who reads bootleg scanlations you are gonna have no problems. A lot of manga uses pretty simple vocab and isn't breaking new ground on plot, I can see how a purpose-built tool could handle it well enough.

The economics though...here is where I don't think this case was ever going to pencil out and isn't now. Because I am pretty sure no one here has heard of any of the manga listed above as exclusives. (I saw 90's manga Geobreeders in there, but that was already partially translated in the 2000's, not sure if they did a new one? Setting it aside) Which, of course you haven't, if you had it probably would have been translated! Books are a 90:10 market, most books never get read and some books get read a ton. Anything big enough can justify a professional translation, and the other can't really sell to begin with.

On top of that, their model is mass translation; which means these obscure manga are presented to you with no context, no hype, no build-up. Wtf is The Blood Blooms In the Barrens?? See, if you were like a boutique publisher, selecting "the best of the best" in untranslated manga, you would promote your specific product. Interviews, social media, the value of the brand-itself as a quality seal. Publishing less is more, actually, your value as a publisher is as a quality selector. Or you could be say the porn market, where you max quantity so people can search "foot fetish breeding kink oshi no ko" and get results; they know what they want. But they aren't doing either! And to be blunt a lot of these are not gonna sell on their art alone:

I'm not mocking The Delayed Highschool Life of a Laborer here, that is better than I could do; but if you want to me spend money on a whim the bar is high and these don't reach it. Which of course they don't, they would be professionally translated if they did.

And finally, the price - $5 dollars, for volume 1's, like a 100-200 pages. The cross-listed manga typically sells for ~$10? That isn't much cheaper! If "translation" was this big cost barrier, and all you got is cutting the price of ebooks in half, I don't know if the analysis was so solid. This is a new product, I doubt they are overcharging to make a quick buck right now - this is the "sell at cost to scale" era.

In all of their lead up press they would say things like this:

Orange's process uses AI to read the manga through image analysis and character recognition, then to translate the words into English, Chinese and other languages. The technology is specialized for manga, meaning it is able to handle wordplay and other difficult-to-translate phrases. A human translator then makes corrections and adjustments. The process can deliver a manga translation in as little as two days. Orange will work with multiple Japanese publishers. The company looks initially to complete 500 translations monthly.

But this is missing a lot of context. For one, these manga are simple high school or battle manga that are ~200 pages long, many of those pages have only a few lines of dialogue, etc. Imagine you are a professional translator, and you are given that manga to translate, all the set-up done for you, all you gotta do is write. How long do you think that would take? Not that long! It could probably take like a week if it's actually all you did (calc'd from a 10k word count manga volume, 2k is a typical "good translator" per day count - many manga are shorter than that). And note how they said "as little as two days" - not median two days! Just, you know, aspirationally.

Translation is just not a big bottleneck. You gotta do layouts, lettering, proofs, etc, these can all take just as much time - and are being done by people, they still need wage workers doing all this. But that is small fry in comparison to publishing contracts, author approvals, distribution, all of that. And most importantly, product acquisition - you have to get authors to sign with you! That can be months of work. I am sure they are trying to get bulk agreements with publishers and such, but authors will push back on that, this is not an easy endeavor.

Which is why, in above, they say they hope to have "500 translations monthly". And after a year+ of work, on launch, they have...

...18. As best I can tell at least, their site deliberately obfuscates what they actually translated versus are just hosting for resale after all.

So yeah, as mentioned I don't think the economics pencil out. These aren't worth $5 dollars, they can't actually generate volume that makes "massive economies of scale" actually valuable, and their approach is currently antithetical to the idea of generating traction for any of their individual works. Niche publishing just doesn't work this way.

But it is early days, and hey I respect the experiment! I do think the tech is pretty good, and it is nice to see a company showcase it. It isn't quite good enough yet for prime time, but it could get there. I do want more manga to get exposure and audience; I will give a fair shake to any who try.

[clownishstarfish]

Hunter x Hunter ships I personally don’t like

These are ships that are NOT supported on my page.

Edit: I have left my hater era… while I do not like these ships myself I won’t shame you for liking the legal ones. I am no longer present in ship discourse. I do not like these but I won’t stop others from enjoying them…. With that said please enjoy the LONG ass read.

Please note a couple things before reading.

1, I do not hate any ships for being WLW, MLM or NL (hetero) unless it’s the result of representation erasure (An example of this is in the Owl House Community. People ship Lunter and say that it’s ok because Luz is a canon Bisexual but it’s still WLW relationship erasure!!! I do not support Lunter btw…)

2, I’m gonna mention stuff like proshipping and toxic relationships so please be warned if you’re triggered by those types of things do not read under the cut

3, I’m also gonna talk about ships I lovehate due to having extremely mixed opinions.

Alright that’s all!! Enjoy your reading and please remember to respect my opinions and interpretations of the characters. This will also include spoilers for the entire animated series.

Killunary (Killua x Canary)

There are a couple reasons why I don’t like this ship but it’s mostly because of the power imbalance. Certain employee x employer ships just don’t work due to extreme power imbalance. The main example of this is the Zoldyck family and their abusive nature towards all the butlers, including how Kikyo treats Canary when she got close to Killua.

The other reason is because I see Killua as a heavily MLM coded character. And I’m sorry if you don’t agree but based on both his canon and non-canon interactions with the various women of the story, I don’t think he’s straight. I personally think he might be gay/vincian but it’s up to interpretation!! I cannot see Killua dating a girl. (This includes ships like KilluRetz and Killumane)

Hisomachi (Hisoka x Machi)

Again, Hisoka is a heavily MLM coded character with Machi being the only woman in the series he’s shown possibly romantic interest in. Hisoka himself is an extremely harmful stereotype of a gay man being overly flamboyant but also predatory towards kids and women. That is a stereotype that is shown and pushed VERY often with Hisoka. (If you do view Machi as WLW, which I do, she’s also a harmful stereotype of the mean, man hating, lesbian./lh)

Also the fact that Machi straight up rejected his dinner offer in the Heaven’s Arena Arc should be enough to push the fact that she doesn’t like him…

Edit: while Hisoka is MLM coded I personally see him as a pan man due to some random factors and just cuz I like it that way

Kuroneon (Chrollo/Kuroro x Neon)

Ok I only have like one reason but I feel like it’s validated tbh!!! He literally attacked her and stole her ability. And I don’t wanna go on a whole rant about Neon and her complexities rn but her nen ability, lovely ghostwriter, was essentially the only reason for her father to love her and care the way he did…

Also their age difference urks me ALOT cuz Neon is about the same age as Kurapika (17-19) and Chrollo is pushin 30… T-T

Kurokura (Chrollo/Kuroro x Kurapika)

A lot of people ship them because “lol omg enemies to lovers!!” But like. This isn’t that kind of enemies to lovers hun… :// Chrollo and the troupe literally massacred the Kurta Clan with zero mercy and left Kurapika alone and almost defenseless in an unfamiliar world. He destroyed everything Kurapika had. That’s not something Kurapika would or will forgive easily. Kurapika is literally destroying himself inside out because of what the troupe did to the Kurta Clan. This ship is just ugh it’s so toxic I hate >:(

Also again, even if Chrollo didn’t destroy the Kurta Clan, age difference. Kurapika’s the same age as Neon (17-19) and Chrollo is PUSHING 30!!!!! Icky!!!

Tbh this goes for any of the Troupe x Kurapika… gross age difference and disgusting enemies to lovers dynamic.

Pitokai (Neferpitou x Kite/Kaito)

One of my biggest icks ever is Victim x Killer because like how would YOU feel if you were violently murdered for seemingly no reason and then find out that there are people out there who think you and your killer would be cute if you dated O.O

Yeah it’s like… really toxic. I don’t have the energy to go into all the details of it but Killer x Victim has no reason to be as popular as it is…

Wisky (Wing x Bisky)

(I couldn’t find any GIFs of them from the movie so you get this still image)

Teacher x Student dynamics really ick me as well… in most but not all cases the teacher is somewhat of a parental figure and the student is very young, in most cases a minor!!! We don’t exactly know if Wing was a kid when Bisky taught him nen since she refers to most people younger then as kids but the idea that she was extremely influential in his earlier years and has that older adult figure role in his life makes the idea of shipping them just.. it makes my skin crawl tbh ^^|||

Also there’s a HUGE age difference with Bisky being 57 and Wing being in his early 20s.

Gingkite (Ging x Kite/Kaito)

Again w the teacher x student guys… the same reasons as with Wisky expect we know for a fact that Ging met and started training Kite when he was a teenager! Makes this extra icky.

Again with the age difference! Ging is in his 30s I think maybe 40s? And Kite is in his early 20s. Pretty big age gap!!!

Any incestous Zoldyck ships

The fact that I even have to state this… dude… c’mon…. Incest is NOT cool chat!!

Any ships between the siblings? DISGUSTING!!

Between the kids and the parents? GRODY!!

Between Zeno and his grandkids? OUTRAGEOUS!!

This isn’t even just limited to the Zoldyck family dude… Mito x Ging is a thing apparently…

Any Child x Adult

Again… why do I need to state this… shipping adults x children is WEIRD!!! And NOT OK!!!

Hisoka x Gon? GROSS!!

Killua x Illumi? DOUBLE GROSS!! INCEST IS ALSO NOT OK.

Killua x Machi? STILL GROSS!!!!

Please if you ship canon children with adults… please… just get off my page :^

Merupouf (Meruem x Shaiapouf)

Gonna be so fr w you guys… I used to ship this… i thought they were funny :’) I’VE RECOVERED DW!!! (/lh)

Uh yeah so the power dynamic is really erm!!! /neg I genuinely cannot go into detail about how toxic they are but I’ll try to summarize… Pouf has like a perfected version of Meruem in his head as the king but when Meruem starts to change for the better he rejects it and thinks he knows what’s best for the king and shit!!! Also Meruem treats his Royal guards like shit (at the beginning) their relationship gets only slightly better towards the end but it’s still abusive!!!

Also my friend pointed out that the Royal guards exist solely for Meruem. Like they are Meruem and Meruem only. Everything is for him and that adds like a super fucked up dynamic to this ship…

Also forgot to mention earlier, ANTCEST. All the chimera ants came from the same mom so shipping them is really weird even if they don’t all see eachother as siblings

—

Ok so that’s all I can think of rn… please try to understand that this is MY interpretation and perception of these characters. It is ok if this is not how you see these characters, but it is how I see them.

[armoralor]

The vitriol some have about Bo and Din being absolutely canon is what I find strange. They’re all fictional characters that are fun to make up stories and AUs about; no ship is better than the other, it’s all about creating joy with some fandom friends.

It’s just the incessant need for a CisHet ship to “WIN” and be CANON that's off-putting. If you like shipping two characters, cool! Have fun! But acting like you’re somehow the most right for interpreting a fictional couple as heterosexual is wild.

The victimhood narrative specifically, that shippers of straight characters need to come together in solidarity to save themselves from the mean lesbians, is what hurts the most. LGBTQIA+ folks finding peace in their free time by envisioning their fav characters as queer & trans is not an attack on heterosexual people.

While I’m not 100% sold on either ship, I think it’s funny that Bo-Katan and The Armorer’s ship is more objectively a thing canonically than the Bo and Din ship.

I say this because The Armorer at least touched Bo-Katan on-screen where Din did not (you could have sold me when he gave his loyalty vow if he’d just touched her… or even if he’d been closer than three feet away while delivering it -which he wasn’t … never mind the fact that he’d delivered a similar loyalty pledge to Boba Fett in TBOBF and no hets ship the two of them…I digress).

And, ultimately, Bo-Katan and the Armorer are objectively rebuilding Mandalore together while Din is living his best life on Navarro with Grogu in his own little cabin while being a Bounty Hunter for the new Republic.

[noahkirschtein]

In honor of jdash confirming newt is gay

it's been 3 years since the tweet(s) and i still have a lot to say. the discourse surrounding it has long since calmed down, but to this day some people's responses bother me immensely and i wanna get a few things off my chest.

"it undermines his friendships"

um.. no ? i can't believe people still have this weird mindset. straight people can have friends of the opposite gender, gay people can have friends of the same gender. bi people ?? pan people ?? they can have friends. (don't even get me started on the weird spot nb people land in with this weird friend mindset some homophobes have).

if you never saw newt's relationship with thomas/minho (or even alby) as anything other than platonic before, then newt being gay literally changes nothing.

"he did it as fanservice"

no. if it was fanserice he would've pandered more to the ships; newtmas being the most popular but thomas was not mentioned. if it was fanservice and for any personal gain he would've hinted at other characters also potentially being queer. if it was fanservice he probably would've at least confirmed newt was into thomas; but he didn't. cause it wasn't about any romance, it was about newt and a part of his character.

the crank palace would've been the perfect opportunity to pander more to shippers if that's what he was doing, but there were no explicitly hinted romantic feelings there either. (there were certainly ways to read certain parts of this book as queer, but i won't get into that in this post.)

"he was forced"

yes and no.. the final push to him confirming newt's sexuality was because someone criticized him for donating the proceeds from the crank palace to lgbtq+ (and BLM) charities. however, the way his tweets were phrased leads me to believe what he says. he voices his apprehension to confirm something so long after the work was released in fear of it coming across as insincere. (*cough* jkr *cough*). he also mentioned in this same 2-part tweet that his upcoming series (at the time) would feature lgbtq+ characters much more prominently and explicitly (no plausible deniability).

tldr for this point: it was someone criticizing him that finally made it happen, but i do believe he genuinely stands for what he said. he'd gone through a lot of personal development during the 11 years between the first book's release and the tweets, i don't doubt that for a second.

"there were no hints in the books"

this is a hard one to talk about without outing myself as a newtmas shipper, but i have a few things to say.

james did not intentionally write newt as a queer character. if you read through the books and didn't pick up any queer subtext/undertones, then that was how he, at the time of writing, intended it. however . does this mean there was nothing there ? how come a huge part of the fandom read him as queer then ? it's all up to reader interpretation whether certain subtext is or isn't present in the work they're consuming.

link to the part 1 that i never see people acknowledge when discussing the "announcement": https://x.com/jamesdashner/status/1336775453755895809?s=20

[onlythestar]

[chapter 4] i can make whole essays on each of these topics, this chapter is my favourite and i could talk about it for hours

• annabeth/medusa parallel (the whole chapter)

• poseidon vs athena 's parenting

• grover and annabeth conflict at the museum (athena, goddess of hunt)

• percy's fatal flaw

• echidna's characterization

• hints to racism and lot more of social discourse intertwined (the cop at the train, achidna again, the museum)

• human damage to the planet (the centaurs being hunted down, pan missing, grover's discomfort on the museum)

• "you were about to call me friend" and the mention of the oracle, to keep the possible-future betrayal present

• percy's fear of the water (+sally's parenting and percy's distrust in poseidon)

• the train talk: annabeth seeing love and trust as something to be earned vs percy's discomfort at that

i could keep going.

[trans-androgyne]

Saw your “I feel so naive…” post and wanted to reply but don’t wanna enter The Discourse. There are people who recognize our struggle that aren’t transmasc. I’ve talked to my gf about this stuff before, and the people in charge of queer resources at my school (keeping vague for anti-doxxing measures) have explicitly mentioned the ways trans mascs get treated as part of their outreach/help for students and staff. I know it feels like everyone else is against us, but there are plenty who remember the nightmare of ace discourse (and bi/pan discourse, and transmed discourse, etc etc etc) and see this situation for what it is

I'm really glad you've had that experience and I hope to see some of it in my life as well. So far, I've been the only one advocating for transmasc-specific issues I've been able to find in my area, but there have been so many supportive folks when I do talk about it, and it's very nice to see. Thank you!!

[tolerateit]

Okay, hear me out a little bit here. It's a little long but I'm shooting for clarity over conciseness.

My first take of SLL was that it was kind of cruel (and I still think so!), like I do think it's a bit more bitter and full of rage than is fair for what the actual substance of the song/narrative is. BUT as we're having a lot of discourse about "I'm pissed off you let me give you all that youth for free," I actually don't think it's a particularly unfair line. I think that's a pretty normal feeling, coming out of a long relationship that didn't end well. As other anons have mentioned, there are several references to both parties having "fallen victim to interlopers' glances," etc. and I think that's where some of this bitterness comes from, in addition to the struggle of trying to help a partner whose mental health is kind of tearing the relationship apart. So my point is that I don't think this line is meant to be viewed in an isolated context.

Also, I think the reason I'm willing to give that line a pass is because of the sheer volume of reference in this album (and previous ones!) to her desire to marry him and have children. She was like 26 when they got together, which IS pretty young in the grand scheme of things, and then they remained together through her early 30s. Now it's only been like a year since they split up but she's touching a lot on themes of having children, her friends are having kids and getting married, and as we can see in The Prophecy, it seems like she feels her life is just this revolving door of hope for getting the "ending" she was looking for, only for it not to pan out. Wrt her "youth" - I don't think she gave him all her youth in the traditional sense, but it's harder for a lot of people to date in their 30s, especially as a woman prioritizing a desire to have kids tends to be perceived as "desperate" by potential partners.

So to that end, I really think that lyric does make sense, even if it's not as nuanced as we might want. It seems like she was kind of all-in on the relationship in past songs, and their future as well, and it seems like she feels he's taken that future from her. (Not a very fair feeling, but imo, an understandable one.) Like, Taylor is going to be 35 this year, and that's NOT old - BUT in America, a pregnancy at 35 is considered a "geriatric pregnancy" (cringe) due to increased likelihood of complications, etc, so if she cares as much about having kids as she lets on, I kind of get it, even though it is pretty insensitive. I could definitely see this being a lot of where she's getting this idea of him having had her youth and it having been kind of wasted, despite that being a harsh thing to say and leaving out a lot of nuanced discussion about the parts of their relationship she clearly appreciated and enjoyed.

I think the cruelest part of this song is the parts where she puts his mental health on blast - "how much sad did you think I had in me?" I do think that's a really insensitive way to frame the situation, and I don't particularly appreciate it.

i can see this!! It's not unfair to think that way especially in the early stages of a separation because you're processing so much anger and grief you can't really get to the acceptance stage right away, so fair enough! But yes to all lines about his mental health! Even "you sacrificed us to the gods of your bluest days" feels like a part of a conversation I shouldn't be privy to

[bop-culture-is]

lol today i was talking to one of my pan friends and she mentioned how she has a tumblr but never uses it and i was like "lol i have a queer positivity blog" and she got all excited and started asking about it and i said that i usually try to stay out of discourse but some people (battle-ax bisexuals) tried to rope me into it a while back because i said pan people were valid

and she misheard me and thought i said "WEREN'T valid" and i was like no honey no i love pan people so much

anyways if ur pan i love u and ur valid and bi/pan solidarity is very good and cool (and we should kiss)

sincerely,

ur friendly neighborhood bi person :)