#mostly npd and bpd

[dodgeryy]

Cluster B bitches watching Baby Reindeer:

[possamble]

I know we don't get much of Marcille's pov in "A little creature who loves you" but what we've been able to glean from her expression of anger at Falin in the fifth chapter and the (surprisingly but extremely welcome as it made the smut hit the spot even more) deep dive into what feeds Marcille's behaviour in "The Dragoness of Melini", you've written Marcille's self-centeredness and narcissism in an extremely poignant way. You really get the feeling that she *does* want to do good and make the world better but overcorrects by trying to control those around her, which people like Namari interpret as purely wrong. I'm a trans girl with NPD (same as the anon recommending Bellwether's zine) and I fucking love what you're doing with Marcille on that front (and many other fronts).

THANK YOU for understanding what I'm trying to do with Marcille fjsjkdkf so many people try to reduce her to her control issues or file them off altogether but. I just. Even when people are able to acknowledge her multitudes I've always wanted to take it a step further where her wish to do good and be good isn't opposed to her fussy neurotic narcissism, but but enmeshed together as one core and unique part of her personality. She loves being deferred to and respected as an authority because it makes her feel important AND because it enables her to help and be useful to other people. Her desire to help people is fueled by a desire to feel important and respected and her desire to feel powerful and important is motivated by her desire to help people and it's not a black and white good or bad thing that can be separated.

Sorry this is jdkdkf turning into another Marcille rant but. My blorbo. I wish more people could see how, despite a lot of emotional hypocrisy in interpersonal relationships (via her inability to understand other perspectives), she holds herself to the same high standards she imposes on others. She is a control freak about herself first and foremost. You never see her more despondent than the times she has failed to meet her own expectations, and furthermore, caused trouble for other people because of it.

In some ways, she's a pathetic little wet cat with the backbone of a drippy eclair. In others, she's a fucking iron fist that will not tolerate failure or weakness in herself. Sometimes she gets a little too smug and peacocks around in her own accomplishments while fishing for more praise. Others, she thinks that doing an insane amount of work in service of other people is the bare fucking minimum that she expects no praise for while berating herself when she can't meet her own requirements. She has the pathetic ridiculousness of a constantly-distressed diva and the fiery dignity of a dragon AND the vulnerability of a terribly lonely girl and just.

She's terrible and projects her own expectations on other people far too often. She's wonderful and at heart just wants to help people. She's neither and just wants to feel a little less lost and a little more loved in a very big world. She's horrid AND fully capable of growing past it in ways not everyone acknowledges so I'm just happy my vision for her resonates with other people djsjdjf

[galaxynajma]

I was gonna say something about how in an ideal world Ness and Kaiser would spread awareness for NPD and BPD but then the more I thought about it … would they actually do that?

[ersatz-introspective]

something really funny to me about my mom really thinking i wanted to become a therapist because i'm taking psychology & have like 2-3 psych books

i would genuinely be The Worst therapist i simply wouldn't be able to care about any of my patients . i would believe i am better than my patients . it would be a circus .

[theokusgallery]

i have bad news for anyone who expects mental illness to be family friendly

^ yeah!

[npdvelvette]

got used to specific blogs regularly interacting with my posts & now they’ve stopped im like. is this a conspiracy against me where everyone hates me but won’t tell me to my face

[cherrieguroo]

you ever just hear about some mental thing and go "oh i relate to that a lot lol" and then it haunts you for the rest of your life because the more you hear about it the more it feels like you've felt that before but you can't just assume you have it so instead you just keep it in the back of your mind

[karmaphone]

I find murder docs hilarious* sometimes because they'll deadass have a guy write 'shame' on a whiteboard and throw 'intense' music over it and that'll be an establishing shot for a guy named dick to talk about how mothers are the root cause of serial killers

[suresuresureaursure]

the neurodivergent can also be:

20% of the time: oh dude man I sure do love being a [insert diagnosis] its so silly and cool and fun teehee

80 of the time: w h y a m i i n p r i s o n

the neurodivergent experience:

20% of the time: wowwieee!!! i love my passions and interests!!!!! they make me so happy i want to jump up and down!!!!! weee!!!!!!! :3333333333

80% of the time: this mind is a prison

[ersatz-introspective]

ppl, especially low/no-empathy ppl, who talk to ableist anti-pd cluster b abuse believers with the upmost patience & understanding are so crazy (/pos) for that because what

how do y'all sit there and level w/ them just. so much.

i know it's kind of necessary bcs even if they don't listen to us anyways, they're only gonna think we're 10× worse if we don't walk them through the spiel w/ hands held (which we're not even owed to do anyways) but like i can hardly see myself doing it

so like

respect

[genderdog]

ok if i assign almost all of my kins bpd what then

[sadicubus]

ೀㅤㅤCluster B attraction flags

Remakes of my old post

FPattraction - BPD exclusive

An aro/ace/apl (depending on how it is used) label where an individual only or mostly feels attraction towards their favorite person. Can be any type of attraction (romantic, sexual, platonic,etc)

ATPattraction - HPD exclusive

An aro/ace/apl (depending on how it is used) label where an individual only or mostly feels attraction towards their attention person. Can be any type of attraction (romantic, sexual, platonic,etc)

CHPattraction + EPattraction - NPD exclusive

An aro/ace/apl (depending on how it is used) label where an individual only or mostly feels attraction towards their chosen₁ and/or equal₂ person. Can be any type of attraction (romantic, sexual, platonic,etc)

EXPattraction + PICattraction - ASPD exclusive

An aro/ace/apl (depending on how it is used) label where an individual only or mostly feels attraction towards their exception₁ and/or partner in crime₂ person. Can be any type of attraction (romantic, sexual, platonic,etc)

 ྀི◟ ͜ ̣̣̥⠀Tagging: @heliotropecollective

[epsiphi]

so i saw THIS image online courtesy of twitter user @/offpridbird and it inspired me to look into the criteria for each of these disorders, and how they might fit him, so…

welcome to

My Analysis On Whether or Not Goro Akechi Has a Cluster B Personality Disorder (According to the DSM-V)

(this is a long post that took up TWELVE pages in my notebook so the nitty gritty is under the cut. tl;dr, there’s evidence in favor of all these)

now you might ask: what are your qualifications? to that i say: i’m a psychology student* who also happens to be a big fan of goro akechi. which is to say that i am not an expert; i just really like this fictional guy. my analysis is also based on my personal understanding of his character. so, you know, don’t flay me alive if i get a part of his character wrong. or do.

*high school

in case you don’t know what a cluster b personality disorder is: it’s a subset of personality disorders characterized by “dramatic, emotional, or erratic” behavior. it includes:

antisocial personality disorder (ASPD)

borderline personality disorder (BPD)

narcissistic personality disorder (NPD)

histrionic personality disorder (HPD).

this post covers ASPD, BPD, and NPD, because those are the disorders i’ve seen most ascribed to akechi. i might cover HPD some other time.

(also yes i seriously perused a copy of the dsm-v for this)

Borderline Personality Disorder

1. Frantic efforts to avoid real or imagined abandonment: we’re looking at mr. “I was extremely particular about my life…my grades…my public image…so someone would want me around!” over here. it’s made pretty clear that akechi’s perfect persona wasn’t something he just started doing when he became famous; it started after his mother died, once he was being “passed around from foster home to foster home”. he tried to be perfect so they would want him. it’s clear that none of them did.

2. A pattern of unstable and intense relationships characterized by alternating between extremes of idealization and devaluation: the only real relationships akechi has are with joker (no canon name discourse here) and shido. it goes without saying that neither of these relationships are very normal; on akechi’s part, both are characterized by his obsessions and love-hate feelings. akechi does also kind of have an idealizing issue with joker (putting him on a pedestal—which is admittedly something most characters do, but i feel like akechi is not any more normal about joker than anyone else)

3. Identity disturbance (markedly and persistently unstable self-image or sense of self): i feel like this guy cycles between “i was cut from the cloth of god” and “i am the scum of the earth”. in thirdsem, he does not seem to have much of a self beneath his detective prince persona (by which i mean he’s very…blank? just look at his default portrait. very blunt and to the point)

4. Impulsivity in at least two areas that are potentially self-damaging (e.g. spending, sex, substance abuse, reckless driving, binge eating): none of these apply in canon. he does seem to have issues with food (forgetting to eat, apparently eating little, not caring about the taste of what he eats vs. the appearance of it, he runs a food blog but it appears to be mostly for show). choosing to become a hitman for a comically evil politician who is also your father at age 15 would qualify for self-damaging, but might also fall under…

5. Recurrent suicidal behavior/gestures/threats, or self-mutilating behaviors: his revenge plan is so bad it’s borderline suicidal—not in the sense that he actively planned to kill himself afterwards or anything, but in the sense of he spent so long fantasizing about getting revenge that he literally never stopped to think about the day after. not envisioning a meaningful future is also suicidal.

6. Affective instability due to a marked reactivity of mood: this confused the hell out of me at first. it essentially means rapid, intense mood shifts. i’m…not sure, actually. (i guess you could count the insane difference between his self in battle vs himself out of battle in thirdsem as this, but i’m not the guy who can answer that).

7. Chronic feelings of emptiness: remember that thieves den conversation where yusuke mentions how difficult keeping up an act for a long stretch of time is (in reference to the pts pretending not to know the truth about akechi in sae’s palace) and akechi responds with ��Is that so? Well, you stop feeling things once you get used to it”? because i do. (note the use of a word as general as things) (also veering into hc: i’ve seen people say akechi’s sin, had his palace not been cut, likely would’ve been acedia, which is…indifference. emptiness.)

8. Inappropriate, intense anger or difficulty controlling anger: have you seen the engine room. i think it’s always there, it’s just that he’s good at controlling it 98% of the time.

9. Transient, stress-related paranoid ideation or severe dissociative symptoms: kind of on the fence about this one—leaning towards yes. i think this sort of applies to the interrogation room? he moves through a lot of it vaguely shocked + a few subsequent tv interviews. in the one soonest after 11/20–the “same strategy used in romance” interview—he has an oddly flat affect, which is funny given the context of how he’s being lauded as hero. like…he can’t even pretend to be happier. in the interview that occurs during the infiltration of shido’s palace (“none of these people know i was an undesirable child”) he mentions how the news of joker’s suicide was dizzying—obviously he’s lying about WHY it was dizzying, but he still appears to mean it.

Total criteria fulfilled: 7/9. (Criterion 1, 2, 3, either 4 or 5 could be considered fulfilled but not both at once, 7, 8, 9)

for clarification: any suicidal behavior under criterion 5 cannot be counted in criterion 4. so if you consider “becoming a hitman for his scraped-off-the-boot-of-the-devil father at 15” as self-damaging but not suicidal, then criterion 4 is fulfilled. if you consider it suicidal behavior, then criterion 5 is fulfilled.

Narcissistic Personality Disorder

1. Has a grandiose sense of self-importance: not sure how to describe this one other than “you know it bitch”

2. Is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love: in my notebook i literally just wrote “yeah” for this. because i don’t have any articulated reason for this belief, i won’t count it as fulfilled criteria. but know i believe it

3. Believes that they are “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or associate with, other special or high status people: by his own admission (confidant rank 2), akechi does not have friends—or as he says, “people i’d actively choose to see in my free time”. it’s not for lack of people who’d want to be his friend; this is in june, people are raving about him. so he probably has a million connections and people who’d love to hang out with him, but he doesn’t want to hang out with a bunch of nobodies. his trait in the artbook is that he gets distracted in conversation, which is a very light way of saying that he doesn’t pay attention to people because they’re boring and not worth the time. joker falls under “other special people”. also, on “believes they’re special”: there’s something to be said about how akechi awakens to his persona 2 years before canon, and how he was totally on his own. like, as far as he knew, he was the only person with these powers—the only person without a shadow, and as such, the only person without distorted desires. so naturally he would consider himself special. (ignoring that he literally kind of is)

4. Requires excessive admiration: guy who has spent whole life internalizing that he is inherently unlovable and worthless becomes a celebrity and puts up a perfect front because he needs people to love him; more at 9. (dsm-v also states: “Their self-esteem is invariably very fragile. They may be preoccupied with how well they are doing and how favorably they are regarded by others”. obviously. hello, 8/28)

5. Has a sense of entitlement (i.e. unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment): great time to bring up Relative Deprivation Theory—the belief that someone will feel deprived of or entitled to something in comparison to another. in akechi’s case: deprivation of acceptance/love in comparison to joker and entitlement to the same (“How does someone like you have things I don’t?!”). it’s interesting that he uses his fame as a reason why he deserves what joker has, when it’s why he doesn’t (fame is not love).

6. Is interpersonally exploitative (i.e. takes advantage of others to achieve their own ends): the core of his charm is manipulation and inherent dishonesty, so i kind of feel this is a given.

7. Lacks empathy (is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others): there’s Word of God that akechi is just like, “whatever” to anyone who isn’t joker, as in he doesn’t particularly care about anyone else on a deeper level (not a ship thing; just an observation). also does not seem to care about most of the people he kills or who get hurt as a result of his actions (i.e. psychotic breakdowns).

8. Is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of them: i mean…do i really have to say anything about this.

9. Shows arrogant or haughty behaviors: do i really have to say anything about this (2). it’s kind of everywhere in the third semester. if you want more evidence: look at his thieves den conversations (crazy)

Total criteria fulfilled: 8/9. (All criterion but 2)

i think goro akechi might be the most covert narcissist in fiction.

Antisocial Personality Disorder:

this one’s a little different than the others.

A. A pervasive pattern of disregard for and violation of the rights of others, occurring since age 15 years, as indicated by three (3) or more of the following:

1a. Failure to conform to social norms with respect to lawful behaviors, as indicated by repeatedly performing acts that are grounds for arrest: i’m no lawyer but i think murder is grounds for arrest.

2a. Deceitfulness, as indicated by repeated lying, use of aliases, or conning others for personal profit or pleasure: this guy lies as easily as he breathes. inevitably he’s lying all the time, considering no one is bringing up the fact that he’s a magic assassin until november 20th.

3a. Impulsivity or failure to plan ahead: well, no, akechi is the type to overplan ahead. i do think he’s kind of impulsive, by virtue of the fact that he’s more emotional than logical.

4a. Irritability or aggressiveness: he hides both of these pretty well for the majority of the game but once third semester starts? irritability is off the charts. aggressiveness is usually confined to battle (despite many many many fan interpretations that would say otherwise)

5a. Reckless disregard for safety of self or others: murder and psychotic breakdowns that wreak havoc on public safety sure does suggest a disregard for others’ safety. choosing to become a hitman for someone you know is evil as a teenager also implies a certain disregard for self-safety.

6a. Consistent irresponsibility, as indicated by repeated failure to sustain consistent work behavior or financial obligations: nope.

7a. Lack of remorse, as indicated by being indifferent to or rationalizing having hurt, mistreated, or stolen from another: as i mentioned under NPD criterion 7–absolutely. emphasis on rationalizing (“My targets were all doing the same damn thing in this eat or be eaten world. All I did was remove their evil from society. How is that any different from the Phantom Thieves?”)

B. The individual is at least 18 years of age: well, yeah. he’s just barely 18 when you formally meet him on june 9th.

C. There is evidence of conduct disorder with onset before age 15 years: unfortunately akechi is not real, so we don’t have this information. i highly doubt it, though (specifically i doubt there would be evidence, if we believe he was already putting up the perfect front before he was famous).

D. The occurrence of antisocial behavior is not exclusively during the course of schizophrenia or bipolar disorder: no (but uh. bipolar disorder is another topic for another day)

Criteria A fulfilled: 5/7. (Criterion 1, 2, 4, 5, 7). Criterion B and D are also fulfilled.

SO! conclusions:

the possibility of akechi having any one of these disorders is plausible

the real common enemy are the people who try and say akechi has no longstanding trauma/psychological issues. clearly, he’s got…something.

goro akechi is the cluster b final boss

[forsaken-headcanons]

HCs for Elliot!! [yapping session nerd warning]

After seeing people hc elliots is a people pleaser, i got the urge and idea to do some people pleaser characteristics research. As a people-pleaser-on-a-fundamental-worrying-level myself, i thought of giving some headcanons about his people pleasing side

[This is probably me just projecting some traits that are considered as people pleasing according to some psychology websites]

Just to note, people pleasing isn't a medical term used by psychologists, more of a label

- People pleasers please people because they want to feel needed by people and will become the "handy reliable man" due to their low self- esteems

- Elliot has his cheerful, happy personality as a way to cover his low self esteems that he has, and also to serve customers with a smile (except 007n7 lol)

- He molded himself into one of the caregiver/parental roles from the survivors despite his young age (prob is in his mid twenties), with most of the other being older than him. This gives him pressure and stress to operate efficiently and take care of the others, while having little-to-no time for himself

- His selfless giving and caring are often taken up to others' advantages (mostly unknowingly)

^ Due to this, Elliot feels extremely burnt-out and hates his role he assigned himself to because it often feels like what he is doing is one-sided

He is an absolute peacemaker, trying to solve/fix people's problems for them and coming up with various excuses for people's bad habits

^Though lately, he has been tired from being the cover-up guy, so he almost stopped doing that

- Possibly due to his service for customers, he would keep his opinions humble and agree what the customer's says

- Elliot would often not speak his mind and just agree with people's opinions or find a middle ground between arguments even if he doesn't wholly agree with what he is saying

[This includes pineapplepizza. He likes it but wouldn't admit it]

^Even if somebody asked his opinion about smth small, he would still hold "do what you want" even if he has the strongest opinion about the question

- Man hates being the caregiver lately, since many don't even take his pizzas, but still contributes to taking care of some sentinels like guest 1337

^ def would contribute to smth he dont wanna do, like distracting the killer [this aint dandys world though]

- Saw hcs of him being the therapist that people can vent to, but wouldn't really talk about his feelings

[Though I can see g1337 being a dad and listening/ caring for Elliot's mental and physical being] <-Yo have any hcs on this mod？

People pleasing is mostly rooted from low self-esteem and wanting a sense of belonging, which could root from various long-term traumas, like neglect from parents of physiological and emotion needs, rather than a once event like an accident

I don't necessarily think Elliot's parents were abusive though, it's more that his parents had arguments about finance and business managing a lot that Elliot's and his sisters needs weren't often met and he had to take care of his sister with a "third parent role". There were definitely maids around but their parents mostly argued when there weren't anyone but their children around.

Probably Elliot was taught to be humble due to the family wealth status to a point when anyone compliments him for his pizza mkaing skills he would just down play it and say its no big deal or nothing big

Thats what I have for now

[And yes some-perhaps most- were projections]

I read that you hc Itrapped NPD AND BPD which is an interesting combo, def would do research on those and make some headcanons for ya mod

🔫🐟 anon

[omg a hc not about 007n7]

Why yes, I do have some headcanons for 1337 being a father figure.

He would father over all the younger survivors - Noob, Two Time and Elliot. He'd call them "kiddos" and spend most of his time in rounds protecting them.

More Elliot particular hcs - Guest would call him "Elli". Elliot gets hurt a lot during rounds and nobody is there to heal him (unless a dispenser somehow survives for longer than 2 miliseconds), but Guest is always willing to patch him up and treat his wounds. He has a lot of experience in doing so from his time in the army. He'd give him some advice that would help Elliot survive too. He's more than willing to listen to Elliot's troubles.

[tobydandelion]

Disabled Villainy isn't Ableism, it's Realism, or; Some People are Wrong about Nessa.

[Some 'Wicked' stage musical/Movie part 2 spoilers]

So I've been seeing a lot of takes about Nessa, (mostly on YouTube since that's the best social media platform for my current neurological needs), and there's a somewhat common one that I have the strong urge to dispute into the void. Some folks seem to misunderstand Nessa's role in the deconstruction of 'Evil'.

The Wizard is Systemic Evil, Glinda is Complacent Evil, and Nessa is Socially Traumatized Evil.

Because Wicked isn't just deconstructing society's perception of evil, but also Evil in practice- which comes from not only bias, misunderstanding, apathy, and greed- but also, the cycle of abuse. And a lot of disabled people don't like to hear this, because there's that lovely statistic that we can point to that says we're "more likely to be victims"- and that's true of abuse that reaches the level of criminality- but I dont think that's true of day-to-day, average, 'just plain mean' abuse. That kind of abuse is a learned behavior that comes from trauma. And, emotional neglect from your peers is trauma. Feeling like a burden is trauma. Watching all the other children playing and feeling left out is trauma. Being made to feel different over your entire life, is trauma.

Nessa isn't an ableist character, she's realistically Borderline for being disabled in a world without Dialectical Behavioral Therapy. Her character literally feels like she was written with BPD/NPD in mind- lashing out the most when she's feeling abandoned by a person she perceives as "hers", feeling the need to control the people around her, not caring how she hurts people in the process of that attempt to control their affection- she's literally my ex wife. They're both very extreme examples, but, with an understandable pathology. And the less extreme version of that is someone a lot of us need to actively fight against becoming every day. It's not fair that that's our burden, but it is. It's the thick line between healthy self-loving disabiltyPunk, or just being a dick. And it's a part of our extra personal labor that 'Entitles' us to an extra amount of grace that I don't think I'll ever really be able to properly quantify, because that line can be hard to see in the heat of the moment, through years of gaslighting and guilt and shame and resulting internalized ableism that we have the urge to fight against. The only way we can really see that line is in hindsight.

And while media that more thoroughly deconstructs this cycle is neccessary, so is simple media like Wicked. Especially in the context of an example of another traumatized marginalized character who made the decision to start actively trying to follow their ethics over their emotions despite their trauma. And, once again, the solution isn't limiting the options for marginalized characters, it's just making more marginalized characters in general.

A lot of folks also take issue with the entire concept of depicting disability being 'cured' in media at all, but, and thankfully I have actually seen this rebuttal: nothing about her life gets better once she becomes abled. And that's because she still has all that trauma from those years of severe marginalization that resulted in ostracization and feelings of powerlessness. She's still disabled- just only neurologically so, now. This is a terrific example of how different disabilities can intersect, and be exacerbated, or even created, by the neurological impact of marginalization.

In fact, that brings up another criticism that I've heard- that the characters are realistically ableist... in a society falling to fascism... in a story all about marginalization. I'm pretty sure that's intended, you guys.

Maybe I'll turn this into a script to film for shortform content next year when Part 2 comes out- I hope I'm out of Postpartum Depression by then. But I couldn't get this out of my head until I got it into words this morning. I think that's probably a good sign I'm starting to feel more like myself. Thankfully I had time to sit down and rock and type this morning, since my partner is taking care of our baby in the other room right now. (Not just babysitting, either- he's washing bottles.❤) He's 6 months now, and the most beautiful, funny, amazing person in the world. Meeting the new version of him every day as he gets stronger and brighter has been the light keeping me going. And we're already doing PHONICS. 💪🧠

[nagichi-boop]

Sonic Disability Headcanons

This’ll be kinda long cuz I want to cover as many characters as possible and I want to include both mental and physical disorders. Spoilers but I made everyone neurodivergent.

Sonic — adhd, Tourettes; chondromalacia patella, chronic migraines (post Frontiers), narcolepsy type 2

Tails — autism, anxiety, cptsd, ocd, morsicatio buccarum (cheek biting); chronic migraines, arthritis (mostly in wrists)

Knuckles — autism, adhd; cfs/me (when away from Master Emerald)

Amy Rose — adhd, bpd; near-sightedness

Shadow — autism, ptsd, cptsd, bpd; unspecified chronic pain (caused by chaos energy, mostly affects knees), cfs/me, chronic migraines, insomnia

Rouge — autism; fibromyalgia, pcos, ibs

Omega — autism

Silver — autism, adhd, anxiety, schizophrenia, chronic motor tic disorder; asthma, pots, eds, fibromyalgia, insomnia

Blaze — autism, ocd, depression, trichotillomania (hair pulling); endometriosis, ibs, lactose intolerance

Cream — autism, anxiety, ptsd; celiac disease, epilepsy

Espio — autism, ocd, ptsd, dpdr; chronic migraines

Vector — autism, adhd; ankylosing spondylitis

Charmy Bee — adhd, dyslexia, dyspraxia, Tourettes; hard of hearing, asthma

Metal Sonic — autism, npd

Sticks — autism, adhd, schizophrenia; eds

Whisper — autism, dyspraxia, depression, ptsd, cptsd; cfs/me, fnd

Tangle — adhd, dyslexia, ptsd; eds, arthritis

Surge — autism, adhd, cptsd, npd, aspd, dpdr; type 1 diabetes (hypoglycaemia), fibromyalgia

Kit — autism, anxiety, depression, dpd, Tourettes, stuttering/stammering; chronic migraines, pots, eds

(I may tweak this as I change my mind or adopt other people’s headcanons, but I wanted to have all my thoughts in one place.)