#marvel reboot

[s10127470]

Thoughts on the Return of Ultimate Marvel

As some of you have probably heard by now, the Ultimate Marvel universe is officially returning for the first time in 8 years in the upcoming event “Ultimate Invasion”, coming this June. 

And while many people are excited for this universe to finally return after not being used for so long, there some, myself included, that are a bit more split….

But before I can explain that, let’s give a bit of a history for some more context. 

In late 1990s, Marvel had barely manage to survive bankruptcy by selling off the film rights of many of their characters to various studios. 

Around that time, they felt like a reason for their declining comic sales was because of how difficult it was for newcomers to get into their comics, given how many relaunches and runs they had going on, combined with the 60 years of history they had under their belts at the time. 

So as as result of this predicament, Marvel came up with the idea of doing an all-new comic run that would run adjacent to the mainline comics. 

It would revamp the iconic Marvel characters for the 21st century and help introduce them to an all-new generation of readers.

And so, Ultimate Marvel was born! 

Launching in 2000 with Ultimate Spider-Man, Ultimate Marvel would become a smash-hit! 

It helped launched Marvel back into the relevance and had a strong presence in the comic book industry, which was helped by other series like Ultimate X-Men in 2001, The Ultimates in 2002, and Ultimate Fantastic Four in 2004.

The series was successful financially wise, but quality-wise….not so much….

Ultimate Spider-Man was great and is often regarded as one of the greatest takes on the Spider-Man mythos. 

But the same can’t be said for the other series. 

A major problem with the Ultimate universe from the beginning was the lack of stylistic focus and cohesion between the titles and creators. 

With Ultimate Spider-Man, while striving to be somewhat different, Brian Michael Bendis still wanted to say true to the spirit and style of the classic Spider-Man comics, but just slightly updated for the modern era. 

However, most of the other Ultimate titles fell into the trap of trying to be too different from the mainline universe.

This was the result of these titles either being placed in the hands of writers who had a style that didn’t really fit with the intention that Marvel had for this universe, or just weren’t very familiar with the characters they were working it. 

As a result, this led to the universe being riddled with ill-fitting characterization and shock-centric storylines. 

It’s the reason why this universe is known as the one with the overly-edgy writing and where nearly everyone is an asshole (with some exceptions like Peter Parker). 

Probably the best example of this would have to be The Ultimates 1 and 2, which featured a reimagined version of the Avengers.

Written by Mark Millar (who had never written anything of actual good quality until about 2012), the Ultimates was created as a satire/commentary of the somewhat ridiculous Bush-era jingoism that plagued the United States not too long after the September 11th attacks, with the Ultimates being portrayed as a superhuman task force created by the government in order to defend America.

While not a bad concept, it really did not fit for a modern reimagining of Earth’s Mightiest Heroes. 

Apart from the comic runs being made horribly dated through its political commentary and abundance of pop culture references and hard to read thanks to Millar’s formerly trademark style of writing like an edgy teenage fanfic writer, it featured undoubtedly the worst takes on the Avengers. 

The Ultimates were basically flanderized versions of the mainline counterparts.

Captain America was an overly jingoistic numbskull, Iron Man was a sleazy alcoholic who was almost never sober, Giant Man was an actual domestic abuser, Wasp was an abuse victim who constantly flirted with other men, and The Hulk was a literal monster who frequently engaged in cannibalism. 

The only remotely likable characters in those runs were Nick Fury, Hawkeye, and especially Thor. 

This was done as an attempt to make the Avengers more grounded and realistic….

Saying the Ultimates is grounded and realistic is like saying Star vs. The Forces of Evil actually had a good series finale.

The main problem was the fact there was barely anyone who you could like or root for.

And in all honesty, it seems that it was the intention while also…..not being so…..

Since there are some moments where they do want us to sympathize with the characters, but due to how most of the series comes off as portraying them as people who don’t deserve sympathy, combine with how unlikable they are, it makes the whole thing pretty confusing.

But other than that, things were fine for Ultimate Marvel until about the late 2000s, when sales started to steadily decline. 

A major reason for that was because the quality of writing of the titles began to somewhat decline, along with the Prime Universe gaining more prominence in the comic book world.

Granted, their writing was not exactly good to begin with, but it was definitely better back then that it was now. 

The biggest offender to this was none other than Ultimates 3. 

Ultimates 3 is unanimously regarded as the worst of the Ultimates series and one of the worst titles from the Ultimate universe. 

The run was written by Jeph Loeb, who was not very familiar with the Ultimate universe to begin with.

Plus he was not in the best mental state at the time, having recently lost his son and close friend to cancer. 

While Ultimates 1 and 2 were not….ya know…..good, but at least they were leagues better and had something to say when compared to Ultimates 3. 

Ultimates 3 basically cranked the overly-edgy writing style to the fucking max, literally being the only thing this run had to offer.

It was pure style over substance.

Along with that, it introduced some of the most infamous moments in this universe. 

With the crowning achievement being the reveal of Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch being in an incestuous relationship.

Yes, you heard me right. Quicksilver and The Scarlet Witch were in an FUCKING incestuous relationship! 

Around the time as well, Marvel began to feel that the Ultimate universe was starting to become too bloated and convoluted. 

Ironic how the whole point of this universe was be more simplified than the mainline universe.

So as a result, Marvel decided they want to do a clean slate for this universe and how did they do it?

With Ultimatum! 

Ultimatum is unanimously regarded as not only the worst storyline in the Ultimate universe and one of the worst in Marvel history, but also one of the worst comic books of all time! 

And it’s all well-deserved.

Long-story short, Ultimatum was about the heroes of the Ultimate Universe having to band together in order to defeat Magneto.

Speaking of which, in Ultimates 3, Quicksilver and the Scarlet Witch are killed by Hawkeye and Ultron respectively, and as a result, it drove Magneto to insanity. 

This led him to steal Thor’s hammer Mjolnir (which in this universe doesn’t have a magical enchantment to it), and combines it his magnetic powers in order to alter the magnetic poles of the Earth. As a result of this, it sends a massive tsunami that floods New York City.

Basically, Magneto wants to destroy the entire world as revenge for the death of his children. 

Ultimatum was an overly-edgy, cynical, and just flat-out depressing and mean-spirited mess. 

Undoubtedly the most notorious element of this comic were the deaths. 

This comic featured the deaths of many notable heroes and villains. And unlike in the mainline universe, death in this universe was much more serious and most of all, permanent.

Most of the time….

 Not helping was how many of the characters either died off-screen, in ways that didn’t make sense, or in rather gruesome and overly graphic ways. 

Some of the best examples include Nightcralwer drowning despite being able to teleport, Doctor Strange having his head exploded by Dormammu, The Thing crushing Doctor Doom’s head with his own bare hands, and perhaps the most infamous, The Blob eating Wasp alive. 

Seriously, what was up with the Ultimate universe and cannibalism?

The only remotely good things in this event was seeing Spider-Man going out of his way to save as many people as possible instead of joining in on the edge-fest and J. Jonah Jameson actually finally seeing him for the hero he really is.

Before I move on, I do want to bring talk about the X-Men real quick.

Out of all the heroes in this event, X-Men by far got screwed over the worst. 

In addition to losing more than half of their team and many of the characters associated with them (even including the Big Four of the X-Men), the origins of the mutant gene were also revealed to them….

In the Ultimate universe, instead of being a natural phenomenon caused by evolution that’s been around since the early days of humanity, the mutant gene was instead the accidental results of a failed attempt to recreate the Super Soldier Serum during World War II. 

Oh yeah side-note, the Super Soldier Serum was a major element in this universe, with often being tied to the sources of many of the heroes’ powers, most notably Spider-Man and The Hulk. 

But back on topic, this revelation has gone down as one of the dumbest twists in Marvel history. 

Everyone has already said it, but it completely misses the point of the X-Men and the mutants as whole. 

They’re suppose to represent minorities and oppressed groups who couldn’t help the way they were born. 

Basically, the Ultimate universe decided to turn the mutants into the goddamn Inhumans, minus the advanced civilization.

And more I think about it, this might’ve been foreshadowing to what would try to do with both teams in the coming years. 

Think about it. Remember during the 2010s when the X-Men’s existence was heavily downplayed and ignored due to everyone at Marvel being forced to do so in order to keep Ike Perlmutter happy, since he was being all huffy about Fox still owning the film rights to that team, while also constantly pushing the Inhumans.

I’m throughly convinced that he somehow read this comic, and as a result, it gave him the idea to replace the X-Men with the Inhumans. 

Anyway, Ultimatum left a nasty mark on the Ultimate Universe.

In addition to permanently killing off many characters, readers somewhat gave up on the series.

Although the Ultimate Universe did continue for another six years, it never reached the level of popularity that it saw in the early 2000s.

And even though this era of Ultimate Marvel was much more tame when compared its earlier years and especially during Loeb’s time, it never caught many people’s interest.

The only thing in that universe that was really worth anyone’s time was Ultimate Spider-Man, which remained great throughout its run and even its relaunch thanks to Brian Michael Bendis stick with the project until the very end.

And since many of characters were permanently killed off (some even before Ultimatum), they attempted to make up for that by introducing many new original characters to serve as replacements for the dead characters.

These included the likes of Jimmy Hudson (Wolverine), Ray Connor (Daredevil), Derek Morgan (Angel), Mach Two (Magneto), Monica Chang (Black Widow), Theodore Allen (The Blob), and Tyrone Cash (Hulk).

Unfortunately, these characters were met with a resounding “meh” and have gone on to either be killed off permanently or just flat out forgotten.

The only original character from the Ultimate universe that manage to make a name for himself and resonated with readers is Miles Morales, who took on the mantle of Spider-Man after Peter Parker was fatally wounded during his finale battle against the Green Goblin.

After about six years of not much to note, Marvel decided to finally end the Ultimate series with the Secret Wars, which saw the Prime Universe and Ultimate Universe crossing paths for the very first time.

It also saw the entire Ultimate universe being destroyed as well, with the only survivors being Miles, Jimmy Hudson (who get forgotten pretty quickly), and Reed Richards, who during the last years of Ultimate, became a super-villain known as The Maker.

Although the Ultimate universe was revived at the end of the event, the three Ultimate survivors have become main-stays in the Prime Universe.

And yeah….that’s basically the history of Ultimate Marvel

Ever since 2015, Marvel hasn’t really done anything with the Ultimate Universe apart from some occasional cameos and references.

But with "Ultimate Invasion", we'll not only be seeing the Ultimate Universe being utilized in a major way for the first time in nearly a decade, but it also possibly means that the Ultimate Universe might be returning for an all-new comic run.

And it does seems to be in good hands, with the two brains behind this project being Johnathan Hickman as the writer, who's already established himself as one of the best writers currently working at Marvel, and Bryan Hitch, the artist behind the first two volumes of the Ultimates.

And while people are excited to see the return of this once-influential universe, most people are curious on how it will be presented.

Continuity-wise, Ultimate Invasion will either be....

A. An direct continuation of where the universe left off.

B. Pretty much the same as A., but with some notable continuity retcons (such as the removal of Ultimatum).

As for tone-wise, that's where things get tricky.

One of the main traits of the Ultimate Universe was its overly edgy nature and use of shock value.

And while that may've been niche back in the 2000s, in the 2020s, that kind of style is generally looked down upon and seen as tryhard.

Not to mention people are just sick of seeing cynical and mean-spirited media nowadays, due to how over-abundant it has become in recent years. Thanks in part due to everybody desperately wanting to be the next Family Guy or Rick and Morty.

If they're gonna bring back the Ultimate Universe, it can't have an edgy and cynical tone.

However, on the topic of an all-new Ultimate run, a lot of people are hoping that the possible run that's spawned from Ultimate Invasion will be a full-on reboot of the Ultimate Universe, rather than a continuation.

And I wholeheartedly agree for a few reasons.

Trying to continue the Ultimate Universe from where it left off would be pretty difficult. In contrast to the Prime Universe, which had been continuously running since 1939, the Ultimate Universe ran from 2000 to 2015, and is only now returning after 8 years of hiatus.

2. Having a clean slate would do wonders for this universe. Ultimatum cannot be understated in how much it affected the Ultimate Universe. As I previously mentioned, many of the iconic heroes and villains were brutally killed and never seen again, and trying to continue the universe without them wouldn't feel right. Technically the Ultimate Universe already did that during its final years and it didn't work out well. Along with that, heroes and villains could actually be written like their other iterations but with some unique quirks rather than edgy, flanderized, asshole versions of themselves.

3. I think it's just time to give another go at an new Ultimate Universe. Next year, Marvel will have 85 years of history under its belt, and your telling me that nobody thinks trying to compress that history into something more digestible isn't a good idea. I mean, that's basically what the Marvel Cinematic Universe has been doing for the last....15 years?!

Good God, I am old...

And funnily enough, it was heavily influenced by the Ultimate Universe.

Well that's all for now. I'm currently planning on sharing my ideas for how I think a new Ultimate Universe should play out.

Let me know what you guys think about the upcoming Ultimate Invasion, and how you would do an Ultimate Marvel reboot.

[kingoftheu]

[aliteralchicken]

since getting into comics are a hot topic at the moment what was the first comics you guys read and how confused were you at the time

[nizaen]

robots :)

[swedenis-h]

X-girlies… and men 😒

[plumbley-bee]

Wild robot is so autistic child gets adopted by autistic mom coded and it made me WEEP

It's funny, its animation is gorgeous, and it left me in shambles but feeling whole by the end of it. Really goddamn good movie.

[wooo-oo]

oh, new variety magazine!!

wait.

is that…?

THE 2017 DUCK TRIPLETS????

[uncharted-constellations]

A marvel fam, a partial shazam fam?

[spider-man-2o99]

individual stills of miguel Scampering on all fours and showing off his more distinct individual movement style (that he has because of his spider-man's Similar-but-still-distinctly-Weird-and-unique powers as compared to the more-graceful Others) so that i don't have 2 keep rewinding the clip(s) to see it. im REALLY excited to see him scuttling and skittering all over the place in the film just like he does in the comics-- and, like, seriously, Miguel Specifically being just. made Massive for some reason in his atsv design will never NOT be funny to me hes SO freakin Bouncy why did they Do That.

don't be Weird on my post or i'll kill you for real

[ape-apocalypse]

[honey-minded-hivemind]

Reboot Reader notices that weird things start happening when they bring the dvds home.

All the medicine with missing labels or past expiration dates are missing from their medicine cabinet. The more unhealthy parts of their snack stash are gone. They place smells and feels cleaner than before, like someone been using furniture polish and wiping things down. Mail and packages have definitely been opened before they get home. The TV starts acting up and keeps turning on by itself. A few knickknacks go missing, their clothes have definitely been gone through, and their bed has a warn spot like someone laid on it.

Feeling a little silly, they ask their new friend Scotty if he'd be willing to stay the night for a few days so they know no one can break in. (Scotty dresses like a nerd, but they saw him knock a creepy customer out with a single punch, so he's comforting to have in the face of potential danger, okay?)

Scotty agrees, immediately walking Reader home that late night/early morning, and promises to keep away any danger. Reader feels a bit better, because Scotty is a good guy, a bit nerdy and a rule-follower most of the time, but he had only ever been good to Reader and helped them...

(Scott is telling the others to tone their searches down a bit, that he'll handle what he can, and then makes sure nothing is bothering Reader or their home. The mail is checked over, their kitchen is filled with healthy foods and snacks and drinks, their blankets are washed and kept warm, and their house is kept clean and free of sharp or dangerous objects...)

[qcomicsy]

I DON'T give a shit, a flying single fuck about how reboots Marvel has for Deadpool, I don't give a flying single damn if his mind is fucked up if memories keep recreating themselves NO origin story for Wade is ever going to hit as harder than losing his mother for cancer and having a militar father, just to him to end up serving the military like his father before him and then right after being expelled he dicovers he has cancer.

Than him being a child that liked "supposedly" girly and feminine things and only feeling comfortable in showing this side of him as a joke.

Do not fucking touch me this is poetic narrative Marvel how the fuck can you fuck something so badly in the name of badly written stories and poorly planed jokes I'm biting your editorial team's emails.

[fionapplespiano]

I think the first MCU X-Men team should be the O7 + Storm

[lordbucketofthecaribbean]

Man these guys realize put the x-men in evolution huh.

[vanmarkus]

just thinking out loud here but if (even disregarding the mismatching years they take place in) the events of Logan went down in Wade's universe and the sacred timeline isn't in danger from disintegrating due to not having an anchor being, that means that the sacred timeline aka Earth-616 aka the mcu (which btw already doesn't make sense, but let's move past that too shall we) does still have a Wolverine

which means that either a) it's an entirely new timeline X-Menwise and we've yet to see how things went down in that universe for the mutants or b) the mcu and the xmcu are on the same timeline, on Earth-616, while Logan was on Wade's timeline on Earth-10005

ofc this also requires us to decide how canon was the xmcu young generation cameo in Deadpool 2 (although if Hugh can play 99% of Wolverines then that cast can also feature multiple universes as well)

but tbh all i care about is Logan not happening on the same timeline as xmdofp because i can't accept Logan going through all that just to end up with another shitty future, he deserves good things goddamnit

[samasmith23]

Why do some people think that stories portraying darker subject matter is always an inherently bad thing?

I’ve recently encountered this weird mindset in regards to certain online fandom spaces, wherein people will argue that fictional characters experiencing intense trauma and pain is somehow inherently problematic and negatively reflects on the creator’s skills or ethics. This feels like such a narrow-minded and shallow understanding of a piece of media, since characters undergoing hardships is often a necessary element for them to grow and develop as the narrative progresses. Plus, while some stories can indeed be more intense and graphic in what types of trauma is depicted, it’s mere inclusion doesn’t automatically make the story or it’s author inherently bad. For instance, even though I personally haven’t read the manga series Berserk by the late Kentaro Miura (May he Rest In Peace…), based on what I’ve heard from others while the series does include graphic depictions of sexual assault which the main protagonist Guts suffered from in his past, said-assaults are NOT framed in a gross or exploitative way, but are instead utilized to analyze and discuss the character’s feelings of physical and psychological trauma derived from said-horrible events, and heavily factors into Guts' overall backstory and development as a character as he tries to heal from the violent trauma of his past and discover some sense of happiness in a bleak world.

And yet despite this I’ve encountered a few people accuse Berserk of being “pro-rape” or even outright stating that Miura “deserved to die” (which is an absolutely disrespectful and disgusting thing to say!) simply because he included these darker elements in his manga. Like... that's as stupid as someone claiming that Quentin Tarantino is automatically "pro-murder" simply because his movies include lots of scenes of characters killing each other.

I’ve also encountered far less overtly toxic examples of this kind bad faith media criticism in comic circles. Awhile I was incredibly confused when I saw some people on Twitter arguing that Saladin Ahmed was “ill-suited to writing teenage characters” simply because of two scenes in his Miles Morales: Spider-Man & Magnificent Ms. Marvel runs respectively, which involved Miles being tortured by the new supervillain, The Assessor (who would later make clones of Miles as a result), as well as the final battle between Ms. Marvel and her evil robot-duplicate Stormranger getting quite brutal at times (you could see blood from the impact Stormranger’s punch).

In regards to the Miles’ torture scene, I've seen a small number of people argue that the scene's existence was inherently inappropriate due to Miles' status as a Black minor, going as far as to label it as "dehumanizing" and "really insensitive to the real trauma of black boys." I'm not sure how I feel about this as those labels feel a tad extreme due to the fantastical nature of Miles' stories. Like, as brutal as the scene with the Assessor is, it’s at least given a more ficitional sci-fi vibe due to the high-tech laboratory, the Frankenstein operating table, and the fact that this whole ordeal leads directly into Miles' own version of Spider-Man: Clone Saga after The Assessor acquires Miles’ DNA in the process. So it feels less grounded and not as reflective of those real-life traumatic experiences Black men and boys unfortunately go through in the U.S. like I saw a few critics of Ahmed’s run claiming. Plus, Ahmed had Miles be rescued by both his father Jefferson Morales and Uncle Aaron Davis teaming-up together. So the narrative frames the Assessor’s torture of Miles as a bad thing whilst depicting two older Black men actively putting aside their personal differences in order to save their son/nephew as a major narrative focus as well. How exactly is it "dehumanizing" or "inappropriate" then?

And it seems like this bizarre criticism isn’t just limited to Twitter comic fandoms, since a certain Lily Orchard recently made an AWFUL video which outright accused animation fandoms and creators of “fetishizing the torture and abuse of POC women” in cartoons like The Legend of Korra, The Owl House, and She-Ra and the Princesses of Power. As soon as I saw the thumbnail for that video I knew it was going to be an absolute dumpster fire.

In it, not only does Lily engage in those similar types of arguments like the ones I mentioned earlier about Saladin Ahmed’s portrayal of Miles & Kamala, but Lily went multiple steps further by outright accusing various scenes from The Legend of Korra, The Owl House & She-Ra of being “literal torture p*rn” and “fetishized abuse against POC women.” With Korra, Lily accused the scenes of Korra brutally poisoned with the Red Lotus’ liquid metalic venom, Korra still being significantly weakened by the poison during her final battle with Zaheer (causing her to fall and tumble down cliff-sides) and Zaheer trying to use his air-bending to suck the oxygen right out of Korra’s lungs (the same technique he previously used to assassinate the Earth Queen), plus the Unalaq fight from the Season 2 finale where extracts the Avatar spirit from Korra and kills all her past lives one by one with a water-whip as “white centrist writers being turned on by the trauma and torture of a woman of color.”

And in regards to She-Ra, Lily accused Catradora shippers of being an example of fandom going “full mask-off” simply because she found 2 or 3 random comments defending Catra’s abusive behavior prior to her gradual redemption arc in the final season simply because they found the Adora & Catra fights “hot” (which I know for a fact does NOT represent the entirety or even majority of the She-Ra fandom & Catradora shippers).

It’s just… I honestly don’t understand why Lily is describing these scenes as “torture p*rn” or “abuse fetishizing.” Like, it’s not unexpected for characters to undergo traumatic crap during their story arcs, and most often it’s for the purposes of raising the dramatic stakes of the conflict or to have said-characters eventually undergo some sort of positive change arc (which is what happens in both Korra and She-Ra btw). While the abuse Korra suffers at Zander’s hands is indeed violent, it’s intentionally disturbing and off-putting in order to increase the viewer’s suspense and fear over whether or not the main character will get out of this alive. Personally, when I first watched the Season finale of “Book 3,” I was on the edge of my seat and constantly worried for Korra’s survival, and while she is left physically and psychologically scarred by the whole ordeal I’ve heard that the entirety of “Book 4” (which I still haven’t seen BTW) focuses on Korra healing from her trauma and becoming more spiritually enlightened in the process. YouTuber and MarySue author, Princess Weekes, though had some interesting analyses about Korra’s portrayal of overcoming trauma and how its heavily rooted  in East Asian philosophy, despite Weekes' overall mixed feelings about the series in general:

And while I can’t comment on The Owl House (again, haven’t watched any of it), I can say that Lily’s characterization of Catradora as “torture p*rn/abuse fetishization” is 100% wrong since the show frames Catra’s behavior towards Adora and others throughout Seasons 1-4 as toxic and unhealthy, and Season 5 is all about her fixing herself on her own volition after realizing the harm she’s caused, and it’s only AFTER all of that when Adora & Catra become lovers. But the way Lily describes the scenes in Korra & She-Ra (which are honestly pretty PG in their levels of brutality despite being fairly dark for family-friendly animation) you’d think she was talking about some over-the-top violently explicit tentacle hentai or something, as she even goes as far as to compare the Korra & Zaheer fight to FREAKING The Passion of the Christ (seriously… Lily actually compared Korra to Mel Gibson's antisemitic guilt-tripping exploitation film which unnecessarily stretches out Jesus' torture and crucifixion; which in the Bible occurred in just a few brief passages instead of 2-and-a-half hours like in the movie).

Geez… given how Lily so inaccurately mischaracterizes these scenes from Korra and She-Ra, I’d honestly hate to see she’d react to Neon Genesis Evangelion, which is heavily centered around the characters suffering from intense depressive episodes and experiencing emotional breakdowns, whilst also including lots of psychoanalytical and disturbing imagery. Knowing Lily, she’d probably ignore the fact that NGE’s director Hideaki Anno was suffering from severe depression while creating the series (which heavily influenced the show’s overall production and themes), and instead accuse all the depictions of depression and trauma in EVA of being “unrealistic” and “inaccurate” since according to her all fictional depictions of trauma are inherently inaccurate since there’s no one universal depiction of trauma (Lily actually said that in her terrible video), and accuse all of the series’ violent and sexual imagery of being “torture p*rn” whilst calling Anno a “perverted abuse-fetishizing creep who is turned on by torture” (which feels incredibly SWERFy on Lily’s part, as well as needlessly hostile towards people who are into BDSM or sado-masachism and practice it safely and consensually) just like she did to the creators of Korra, Owl House, and She-Ra (even though NGE and especially the movie The End of Evangelion is highly critical of exactly that kind of gross and toxic behavior within Japanese Otaku subcultures).

So my overall question is this: why do Lily and some other people think that including intense trauma or brutal torture scenes in comics or animation, even when said-scenes they're framed in the story as bad things are inherently “problematic,” “dehumanizing,” “fetishistic,” or “torture/trauma p*rn”? It's like... I can understand not wanting to stomach intensely violent or depressing scenes if they can't handle them, or being critical if they feel unnecessarily mean-spirited or exploitative, but often times having darker elements is an unavoidable aspect of giving a story a sense of conflict. Conflict is necessary in order to have a plot or to develop characters, except it feels like a lot of people on social media believe that the mere inclusion of any type of darker conflict or subject matter is inherently ethically dubious regardless of how its framed within the overall narrative.

I just don't get this kind of mentality and why it's become so prevalent online these days... I really don't...