#love triangle subversion

[the-modern-typewriter]

Could we get a love triangle where the rivals fall in love with each other instead of the intended love interest? (Would love if it's m/m and enemies to lovers)

"Tell me," Cassander murmured. "Is it that you don't like my hands on her, or simply that you wish I had my hands on you instead?"

Azael glared at the other fey. His jaw clenched with the sudden horrible realisation that the truth wanting to slip passed his lips wasn't "her" immediately and without question.

Cassander, bastard that he was, smirked at his silence. He sauntered closer, his gaze fixed on Azael with the disquieting familiarity of any good enemy. He wasn't like the human. Cassander didn't look at him he was some beautiful, otherworldly and magical thing. All positive qualities and power. A dream within a dream within a fantasy. Cassander looked at him like he knew every filthy, dark thing about him and still wanted to sink his teeth in for the rest. Rake out every lingering secret with clawed hands. Rend and own and conquer.

Cassander was not fragile and caring and brave. If Azael shoved Cassander into a wall, if he grabbed him by the shoulders, experience told him there would be no need to be gentle. No fear of breaking something fleeting and perfect.

It should have been about her. She was the better choice in every way. She should have been what he wanted.

"I think you're very quick to physically put yourself between me and her," Cassander continued, in a confiding sort of voice. "Quick to get in my face and see if I'll put you back down . I think, when the three of us are in a room together, I'm the one that you're always watching."

"That's because you're the one who can't be trusted."

"She's drawn to me."

"You're a high fey. She's a human. She can't help it."

"How very patronising and mildly misogynistic. Does she like that about you?"

"I'm trying to keep her safe!"

"Maybe she does," Cassander mused. "Certainly, it's been centuries since I've seen you so worked up. It's an excellent look on you, possessiveness. It reminds me that, no matter how civilised and cold you pretend to be these days, you're still just the vicious little scrap willing to fight every other member of my court. Aren't you?"

Azael seethed. Still, no good response could leave his mouth without damning him. He'd never envied the human's ability to lie quite so much as when Cassander was in the room. He'd never felt quite so much like his very blood was burning up in the heat.

Cassander's smirk grew.

"But what about you, Azael?" His head tilted, as he paused on the other side of the dining table. His voice was ancient music, fey-tongue, home. "Can you help it?"

"It's not my fault you're - maddening."

"Maddening, am I?"

"The worst."

Azael realised, abruptly, that he'd leaned in across the table to snarl the words into Cassander's beautiful face. There were mere inches between them.

What would Cassander do, if it was the human, standing where Azael was? No doubt he'd be charming. He was never charming to Azael.

Their eyes met.

"Kiss me," Cassander ordered.

Without thinking, savagely, Azael did. He tangled his fingers in Cassander's hair and yanked, half hauling him across the table. He bit down claiming at Cassander's lips. He only stopped when he felt Cassander laugh with feral glee against his mouth.

They broke apart. Cassander's eyes were dark, devouring.

"I guess you can't help it, either," Cassander said. He licked his lips. Slow. Taunting. "So how can you hold it against her? Maybe you should apologise."

"Stay away from her."

"Why?"

"Because -" Azael drew in a breath. He could still imagine the heat of Cassander beneath his hands, the scent of him, the wily danger of the summer court's most favoured son. "Because I said so. And you're in my court."

"Would you like me to leave?"

"I'd like you bloody well kiss me again."

It slipped out. Too lacking in the silver that was supposed to coat his frozen tongue.

Cassander grinned with the same triumphant smile he'd once had on the battlefield. He rounded the table, pushing Azael down into the chair and straddling his lap.

"I'll have to send our sweet girl a fruit basket," he said. He mockingly, gently, tucked Azael's hair back from his flushed face. "She might just make an honest thing of you yet."

"You-"

Then he kissed Azael, and Azael realised he was well and truly screwed.

Him.

Maybe it had always been about him.

Damn it.

[poorly-drawn-mdzs]

Average Drama Enjoyer observes some peak drama.

[kjscottwrites]

There's only so many characters allowed for each text box so to clarify the terminology: in this case the "paramour" is the person who has two options for lovers, and the "suitors" are the two people they're choosing between - I don't mean the terms literally! Hopefully it makes sense.

Anyway! In the notes tell me your favorite example of a subversive love triangle! Personally I love love triangles when they're executed a little sideways and have unexpected endings, so I'm up for any of these really.

I want to know your thoughts!

[aaamike]

Despite Nobara and Fushiguro constant annoyance with Yuji, and only knowing him for (maybe) less than a year, they are very clearly some of his biggest supporters(and wingmen).

[possamble]

realizing im kind of a weirdo about laios and marcille

[ponytailzuko]

the love square as a concept in miraculous ladybug is literally brilliant i need it divorced from miraculous ladybug immediately so everyone can write with it without being accused of copying.

[indigostarfire]

La Pluie’s love triangle:

something I’m looking forward to watching

@lurkingshan made an excellent post (that cites other great posts) describing how La Pluie is an intentional subversion of the soulmate trope and how it’s so fascinating that being a soulmate is now an obstacle that Tai needs to overcome.

By subverting the soulmate trope, La Pluie allows the examination of what makes a relationship last. On the one hand you can start off having this inexplicable attraction to someone, or on the other hand, you can have this easy and comfortable vibe when relating to another due to common areas of interest but what makes love last in the long run? This is one of the themes being explored here and week by week as we go through the story, I find it interesting to see what the show is trying to say about it through the various characters (Tai, his dad, Lomfon, Phatt, Phatt’s ex).

This story is fascinating because this is the one time where I don’t mind the love triangle. Why? Because it has the potential to play an important role in fleshing out Tai’s character, and ultimately in conveying what this story wants to say about the kind of love that does last. How will Tai respond to Lomfon’s affection? As @lurkingshan said, Phatt is Tai’s soulmate and this fact is the obstacle for them. Sure they’re soulmates but will this relationship last? Tai is not sure and with good reason. Tai’s dad thinks it will last but what is that based on? @bengiyo's theory is a definite possibility and still there must be more.

The love triangle that has been set up provides the opportunity for Tai and Phatt, or Tai and Lomfon to potentially have interesting conversations that can take a deeper look and explore this question of “what makes a relationship last?” I’m curious and for the first time I’m interested in seeing how this love triangle will play itself out.

[saturnsuv]

8 episodes into tlok trying to fill the atla hole in my heart again and my impression so far is that it’s aggressively mediocre. sorry

[thedailybullshit]

“I will never fall in love, or be a housewife, or have a family.”

Wednesday if you’re asexual you can just say that.

[fandom-space-princess]

weird to reflect on my own preferences in fanfiction (and fiction more broadly). I don't like soulmate au's, except when I do, in much the same way as I don't like stories about love triangles/people being bad at polyamory, except when I do, and in neither case is there a pattern to this which is predictable to me 🤷🙃

[mariocki]

Susannah: Yes. Yes, he did risk himself. We all did. A lot of it... OK, a bit half-assed but at least... some of it will stick! You have to try. It's not going to work any more, running for the same old burrows... we're rafting off into space - God! Frank sees it. He said to me one day, 'Suse... you know what's going to do for us all? Not the failure of intellect, moral, muscle - but the failure of imagination! They're all too busy with their snouts in the trough to smell the fire.'

Crystal: Yeah, he says some really daft things.

-

Pam Gems, Loving Women (1984)

[sepublic]

I like how Titan Luz’s design parallels/foils Belos, as she herself does; We have horns, we have a skeletal motif. The pronounced knuckles and segmented fingers. A brim splitting off at the waist, pants that are cut off by ‘boots’ with diamond-shaped knee pads. The rim of the cape consists of triangles. A circular symbol on the chest, and black eyes with glowing rings. Gold as a motif, a staff with an orb at the center. And of course the obvious opposite, one look being angelic and white and holy, while the other is demonic and black and witchy.

Furthermore!

I can’t help but see similarities in Titan Luz’s design, and Maleficent’s… Black and purple, the flowy points at the ends. The shape of the horns, with a little beloved animal sidekick on her shoulder constantly! And an orb staff. Conversely, Belos’ outfit beneath the robes reminds me of Prince Phillip’s… Yeah, that’s his name! They’re even both brunettes, which is emphasized in Philip’s final moments.

Belos’ Emperor appearance also has horns, the cape with the points, and an orb staff; He’s like a twisted reflection of Maleficent, a ‘holy’ one. And like Maleficent, he becomes a draconic monster blocking off a castle from our protagonists, who initially face them off at the drawbridge leading to said castle!

So there’s a fun interplay in Sleeping Beauty as a Disney classic that was its first take on the knight vs the evil witch who turns into a dragon… TOH taking that, flipping it on its head; Philip (One L) thinking he’s a holy, monster slaying hero saving a blonde human from a witch, only to be more alike the villain in terms of being the aggressor, the actual threat. The castle is his, but it’s also a wicked lair like Maleficent’s.

Conversely Luz represents Maleficent in terms of the aesthetics and witchcraft and how in a meta sense, these are things demonized by Puritan witch trials, which would later inform the U.S.’s cultural zeitgeist during the years Sleeping Beauty was made; There’s a brief scene in which Maleficent’s ~evil~ followers can be seen dancing around a fire, in reference to a famous painting about paganism that TOH also referenced;

It’s all like a strange mirror, flipped in some regards, and played straight in others. The witch is the hero, the brunette white man is the monster, the dragon is technically the Titan, whose power and appearance Philip is stealing; And the Titan is benevolent, the actual dragon who helps Luz become this demonic creature in a triumphant moment. The battle ends not with a dragon impersonated, but with the white man facing his comeuppance. It’s a massive cheeky riff on Sleeping Beauty, one of the earliest, quintessential Disney tales. Which reminds me of Hunting Palismen’s subversion gag about the “True love’s kiss waking up sleeping royalty,” which was one of the earliest ideas when making the show; What a way to foreshadow the show’s trajectory!

[somebodys-nightmare]

Understanding the Romantic Narrative Arcs in Final Fantasy VII

There has been no shortage of discourse surrounding the “Love Triangle Debate”, (a fan-constructed term, I must inform you) of FFVII for a very long time. Most recently, with the release of FFVII Rebirth, this discourse has intensified and led to a wide spectrum of fan conclusions that range from grounded in narrative sense to completely baseless or delusional. Some takes are attached to contemporary relationship issues, personal experience, comparisons to other media or works of fiction, social constructs or societal issues, personal preference, or a lack of full context.

While any piece of media or fiction is subject to some level of interpretation (this is the very nature of humans consuming works of art), most works are created with intentional narrative direction. In fact, many works are formulaic, especially in genres such as fantasy, romance, mystery, etc. While of course there are always exceptions and deviations, as a writer and former English literature teacher I can say that most stories follow a general narrative structure or arc that makes them digestible and satisfying to readers/audiences. Such arcs impact the main, external, internal, and subplots of a story, as well as individual character arcs and character relationship arcs.

Final Fantasy is no different. While there are other cultural influences as FFs are Japanese stories, my experience with the series is the writing generally follows most storytelling conventions that can be found in all forms of archetypal writing, cross-culturally and generationally. FFVII is often accused of being ambiguous or open-ended in many aspects of its story. I tend to disagree with this idea and think that its storytelling is subversive rather than ambiguous, meaning that it requires players to work harder and use more critical thinking in order to reach the author’s intended conclusions. It also relies on false or misleading narratives for a good part of the story (such as red herrings, illusions, or unreliable narrators) as storytelling devices that help the truth in the story unfold in later parts of the narrative arc(s). Like any piece of media using these storytelling methods, this means that there will be controversy or debate as audiences contend with the author’s messages or intentions. However, that does not mean that the intentions are not there and that there is not an intentional outcome on the part of the writers.

Personally, I believe that FFVII has a very clear narrative structure for all of its main plot, sub plots, and character arcs, but that its approach is challenging to many players who have to wrestle with the story as it unfolds to understand it. It is not spoon-fed, and some revelations may betray player attachments that were originally formed. However, in my view, this is what makes FFVII such an exceptional story when compared to many others. That being said, the lack (or refusal) of understanding of FFVII’s narrative arcs has led to discourse that unfortunately mischaracterizes many of the characters and pushes inappropriate perspectives onto the storytelling, mostly surrounding the romantic arcs of the main characters and the so-called “LTD” (the fan construction, remember?). I strongly believe that the best way to understand any story is to follow the narrative arcs in order to arrive at the author’s intended conclusions.

I’m going to attempt to do that for the romantic subplots in FFVII in hopes of bringing some clarity to this issue. This analysis is based on a standard Three-Act Romance narrative writing structure (which aligns with the Hero's Journey structure), as well common romantic archetypes and tropes, both for characters and plot, but applied to the specific context of the story, world, and characters of FFVII. Please note that this is my personal analysis and it is by no means perfect, nor am I saying this is the bible of how FFVII has been written. I just hope it gives some insight into why some storytelling interpretations of FFVII should make more sense than… others. This analysis will draw from bits of the entire compilation, but the primary focus of the structure will be looking at FF7R with the OG as a baseline.

This is a long thread, so please see the outline for discussion below.

Romantic Structure/Trope Analysis

Cloud/Tifa: The Slow Burn/Childhood Friends to Lovers Romance

Aerith/Cloud: The Unrequited Love/Not Meant to Be Romance

Zack/Aerith: The Long Lost Love Romance

Final Thoughts: The "Love Triangle" is a Narrative Illusion

Cloud/Tifa: The Slow Burn/Childhood Friends to Lovers Romance

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook (Childhood Connection Revealed)

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Establish the protagonists in their everyday lives, showing what emotional or psychological issues are holding them back from love. Readers should get a sense of their internal conflicts and motivations, along with the external situations that will challenge them later.

Childhood Friends Layer: Introduce the deep connection between the two characters, showing them as lifelong friends with an established bond. There could be hints of one or both characters secretly harboring feelings for the other, but they haven't acted on it due to fear of losing the friendship.

Example: Cloud and Tifa are childhood friends with a complicated history. Although they were close when they were little, they drifted apart but secretly longed for one another. They shared a romantic promise and then separated for seven years. At the beginning of FFVII, they are reunited, but both characters are contending with serious internal and external conflicts - Cloud’s identity crisis and the Shinra Company’s greed and abuse of the planet.

The Inciting Incident / Call to Adventure / Meet-Cute

Romance Structure: Inciting Incident / The Meet-Cute

Purpose: The main characters meet or are pushed together by external circumstances. This encounter introduces the romantic conflict—whether it’s instant attraction or tension between them.

Childhood Friends Layer: Since they’ve already known each other for years, the “meet-cute” here is more about seeing each other in a new light. Maybe one of them returns to town after time away, or an external event shifts their dynamic, making one or both start to view the other differently.

Example: Cloud and Tifa reunite in Midgar and Tifa recruits Cloud to work for AVALANCHE. She does this primarily to keep him close so she can keep an eye on him as she is worried about him and his mental state. During this time, we see an instant chemistry between Cloud and Tifa as they reconnect after years apart. When conflicts are introduced, we see the strain that it puts on them, but we also see how there’s a lingering desire for closeness, whether it be in their discussion/memory of the promise, their mutual flirting, their skinship, etc.

First Plot Point / Refusal of the Call

Romance Structure: Rejection of the Relationship

Purpose: The characters resist the idea of a romantic relationship, often due to internal or external obstacles. There’s a clear push-pull dynamic as they fight their growing attraction, often rejecting the possibility of being together.

Childhood Friends Layer: The hesitation here comes from their shared history. Both characters are afraid to risk their close friendship for something as uncertain as a romance. This dynamic creates tension as they begin to realize how much they depend on each other emotionally.

Example: This isn’t directly addressed, but the narrative deflects from intentional romantic confrontations at this point because of Cloud’s identity crisis and the pressing issues of the external conflict. Neither character is outwardly pursuing a relationship, but they don’t exactly deny their desire for closeness. We consistently see the push/pull between Cloud and Tifa throughout the early part of their arc. It's also further complicated when Sephiroth starts to sabotage their relationship.

Act 2: The Middle

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: External circumstances push them together, forcing them to interact and face their growing connection. Even if they resist the idea of love, the bond between them deepens as they spend more time together.

Childhood Friends Layer: Their shared history becomes an advantage and a source of conflict. The deeper they dive into new romantic feelings, the more they rely on the comfort of their friendship, but they’re also terrified of crossing the line and ruining everything.

Example: Cloud and Tifa work together both with AVALANCHE and the party at large to combat the threats present in the external conflict. Additionally, they share deep trauma from the Nibelheim Incident that brings them closer together as sources of comfort. They become one another’s rocks, and though they still do not move toward any explicit romantic confirmation, it is clear from their behavior that they both hold deep feelings for each other and care for each other greatly. Cloud in particular holds on to his promise to Tifa, making it a cornerstone of his strength moving forward.

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: This is a major turning point where the characters either experience a "false high" (where they feel like things are going well but something still isn’t quite right) or a "false low" (where they feel like things are falling apart). There’s often a pivotal moment of intimacy that deepens their bond but also introduces new fears.

Childhood Friends Layer: The fear of losing the friendship intensifies. They might experience their first kiss or confession of deeper feelings, but the risk of ruining their long-established bond makes the situation more fraught with anxiety.

Example: This particular point in the arc gets a little tricky for Cloud and Tifa because of Cloud’s identity crisis and Tifa’s reticence around their mismatched issues. However, Rebirth has made it clear that before the end of disc 1, Cloud and Tifa are aware of their feelings for each other and that the narrative is still in the way of it. This arc intersects events that transpire from Kalm to Gongaga, and we see the build-up of tension due to the internal conflict between Cloud and Sephiroth.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: The characters are drawn back together by external events, but their internal fears and conflicts still loom large. The romance starts to deepen, but both are still fighting their feelings in some way.

Childhood Friends Layer: They try to go back to being "just friends," but it’s clear that things have changed between them. The emotional and romantic tension keeps building, and they can’t ignore how much they need each other.

Example: We see this dynamic between Cloud and Tifa continue to build throughout disc 1, particularly in Rebirth. We are consistently reminded of the tension between them and the importance of their relationship, regardless of romantic intent. Gongaga and Nibelheim are great examples of this.

Second Plot Point / The Fall

Romance Structure: The Fall

Purpose: The characters are now falling in love, even if they haven’t fully admitted it to each other. There’s often a deeper moment of intimacy—physical or emotional—that makes them realize just how much they mean to each other.

Childhood Friends Layer: One or both characters realize they’ve fallen hard for their best friend, but they are still careful or hold back from telling the other, afraid it might ruin everything. Nonetheless, they give in to their feelings in some capacity, which marks a turning point.

Example: The Gold Saucer date would be the best parallel for this point in the arc for Cloud and Tifa. In the OG Tifa almost confesses to a very interested Cloud, in Rebirth, they confirm feelings and kiss. Either way, it’s clearly meant to signal at this point, the fall has happened.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: Dark Moment / The Break-Up

Purpose: This is the point where everything falls apart. The characters break up or distance themselves, either because of internal or external forces.

Childhood Friends Layer: The weight of their shared history makes this moment even more devastating. The fear of losing the friendship forever becomes real.

Example: For Cloud and Tifa, this moment is really hinged on Cloud’s mental breakdown. After the Gold Saucer Date, Cloud’s mental state progressively worsens due to events that occur within both the internal and external conflicts, and his bond with Tifa is severed completely at the Northern Crater. Cloud and Tifa are separated when Cloud falls into the Lifestream.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: One or both characters must confront their fears and make a choice. This moment often involves a grand gesture or a realization that love is worth the risk.

Childhood Friends Layer: The realization comes that their friendship has always been the foundation of something more. They understand that risking the friendship for love is not only worth it but that the friendship can only deepen through their romantic connection.

Example: This point comes in Mideel and the Lifestream Scene. Tifa reaches her own realization about her relationship with Cloud and how her reticence has impacted things, and her conviction to save him and be with him is both profound and clearly romantic. Inside the Lifestream, Tifa helps Cloud to find himself, and many revelations about his true feelings for her are brought to light. Of course, we have not reached this point of the story in FF7R, so it will be intriguing to see how it unfolds, given all of the additional context the remake series and ToTP have provided.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: The characters finally confess their love for each other, making the leap from friends to lovers. This is the emotional high point where the relationship is solidified.

Childhood Friends Layer: The confession of love is tied to their long history, as they realize that their deep emotional connection as friends is the foundation for a strong romantic relationship.

Example: This moment for Cloud and Tifa is the Highwind Scene in the OG, where they confirm, without words, that their feelings match. Once again, we will see how this event unfolds in Part 3 with all the new and deepened context of Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in 7R.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: The characters are together and happy, giving the reader a sense of closure.

Childhood Friends Layer: The resolution emphasizes how their strong friendship has transitioned seamlessly into a romantic relationship, giving the sense that they’ll continue to support each other as both friends and lovers.

Example: In the OG, this is seen in the FMV of the game where Cloud and Tifa are together, leading to the resolution of the entire story as Holy and the Lifestream are released. While this scene isn’t particularly direct, it’s enough to show that Cloud and Tifa are together, which leads to ACC where they live and raise a family together. This entire ending segment will likely be greatly expanded in FF7R, and so it'll be interesting to see how these moments are handled, given all of the new context.

Aerith/Cloud: Unrequited Love/Not Meant to Be Arc

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook (Unrequited Feelings Introduced)

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Introduce the protagonist, who falls for the other character. Set up their emotional and psychological conflict, showing how these unrequited feelings shape their interactions with the other character.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character’s love is clearly unreturned, but they hold on to hope. There is a mix of admiration, longing, and pain as they watch the love interest live their life without ever seeing them as a romantic partner.

Example: Aerith’s feelings for Cloud, who she meets first on the streets of Midgar and later inside her church, are inspired by her long-lost love, Zack, whom he reminds her of. We don’t know this immediately, but we find out soon enough, and the story, especially 7R, is full of visual and symbolic cues.

The Inciting Incident / Call to Adventure / Meet-Cute

Romance Structure: Inciting Incident / The Meet-Cute

Purpose: The characters are pushed together by external circumstances, giving the protagonist more time with the love interest. The character sees this as an opportunity to grow closer, but the other character remains unaware or indifferent to their romantic feelings.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character is thrilled to spend more time with the other character and hopes this will bring them closer. However, the love interest still sees the relationship as platonic, creating tension.

Example: While their interaction on Loveless Street is the fated moment for Cloud and Aerith, the meet-cute is their meeting in the church. This is the inciting incident that not only truly triggers Aerith’s latent Zack-longing, but also begins Cloud and Aerith’s friendship as they work together for a common cause. Aerith flirts with Cloud quite a bit at this point, displaying her interest, but Cloud does not reciprocate in any romantic sense. She also refuses to let him leave and follows him around, essentially solidifying Aerith’s place in the player party and cementing her role as the heroine driving the external conflict. From here on out, we are consistently reminded that Cloud reminds Aerith of Zack, the deeper reason for her interest in him.

First Plot Point / Refusal of the Call

Romance Structure: Rejection of the Relationship

Purpose: The protagonist’s feelings remain unrequited. The other character might express interest in someone else or explicitly state that they don’t see the protagonist in a romantic light. This deepens the emotional conflict for the protagonist, who struggles with unspoken feelings.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist is heartbroken but holds onto hope. They keep pushing their emotions down, unwilling to let go just yet.

Example: Aerith meets Tifa and quickly realizes that she is someone deeply important to Cloud. In Remake, she realizes this even before meeting her when Cloud has a headache and calls out Tifa’s name. Her awareness changes her behavior somewhat, but internally, she still is still conflicted because of her internal conflict over Zack.

Act 2: The Middle

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: External circumstances continue to push the characters together, and the protagonist’s feelings deepen. They begin to cling to small moments, hoping that their love might one day be reciprocated.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist interprets friendly gestures as signs of romantic potential. They invest emotionally in every small interaction, hoping it means more than it does. However, deep down, they start to feel the weight of their unreturned affection.

Example: The journey continues with the party leaving Midgar, and Aerith’s feelings for Cloud grow despite her knowledge of his bond with Tifa as the party travels together. In Rebirth this is further complicated by Aerith’s loss of foresight/memories to the Whispers. We are also constantly reminded of Aerith’s lingering feelings for Zack and her grief and sadness over his loss/disappearance. Throughout the journey, she seeks out opportunities to spend time with Cloud - “dates” even though these moments are not reciprocated romantically. A notable example of this is her date with him on the clock tower in Kalm, where she speaks to him about his relationship with Tifa (hinting at her knowledge of their bond and her jealousy over it) and then her public declaration that they were on a date (in front of Tifa). Cloud's reaction to moments like these continue to inform the audience he does not return romantic affections for Aerith.

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: A major turning point occurs where the protagonist either faces the possibility that their love will never be returned or sees a fleeting moment where they think it might be. The emotional stakes are higher, as the protagonist grapples with whether to continue holding on.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character might attempt to make their feelings known, either explicitly or through subtle gestures, but the love interest doesn’t reciprocate. The character is left feeling exposed and vulnerable, yet still holding on to hope that things might change.

Example: For Cloud and Aerith, this continues to be the nature of their relational development throughout most of disc 1, but their interaction on the water tower in Nibelheim is probably the best example of this. Aerith has to grapple with her jealousy over Cloud and Tifa’s bond, which she has been observing for the entire game. Her acknowledgment of her feelings over it is a major turning point as a character. Additionally, this moment really cements that Cloud views his relationship with Aerith as a cherished friendship, as we see the way that he cares about her angry reaction.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: Circumstances force the characters to spend more time together, even though the character is starting to feel the emotional strain of unrequited love. There may be a moment of temporary hope, but it’s tinged with the growing realization that their feelings might never be returned.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character becomes more emotionally drained as they begin to sense that their love will remain one-sided. They might try one last time to be closer to the love interest, but the gap between them is becoming clearer.

Example: This moment could best be viewed through Cloud and Aerith’s Gold Saucer date. There, Aerith not only tries to get closer to Cloud but she opens up emotionally and gives Cloud insight into the root of her feelings, which is Zack. Cloud does not reciprocate any of Aerith’s romantic overtures in this date and rather displays discomfort or awkwardness throughout most of it. However, he does allow her a moment of emotional vulnerability, which he has not been willing to do previously. This is further contextualized by how, In Rebirth, Cloud has remembered Zack by this point (albeit incorrectly). Cloud, who cherishes and cares for Aerith greatly as a friend, is considerate of this connection and offers her comfort for the grief and loss she has just admitted to feeling and seeking consolation in him from. Hence "just until the ride's over"; "I didn't do anything" etc...

Second Plot Point / The Fall

Romance Structure: The Fall

Purpose: The character finally realizes that their love will never be returned. This is an emotionally intense moment where they are forced to confront the truth—they will never be more than a friend or confidant to the love interest.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist may be devastated by the final confirmation that their feelings will never be returned. The emotional weight of unrequited love becomes too much, and they start to realize they need to let go, or come to other realizations about their feelings.

Example: The moment that most closely matches with this point in the arc is the dream stroll through Sector 5. Not only does Aerith accept that Cloud doesn’t return her feelings romantically, but she comes to a realization of her own feelings and questions them. This is clearly a reference to Zack, whose internal conflict has been consistently foreshadowed. Aerith also seems to recognize that she can’t help Cloud with his internal conflict - that is Tifa's role.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: Dark Moment / The Break-Up

Purpose: This is the point of emotional reckoning, where they face the reality of unrequited love and move on in their arc.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character experiences grief over their unreturned feelings. They might decide to pull away from the love interest entirely, or they may try to come to terms with remaining friends while letting go of their romantic hopes and moving on.

Example: For Aerith, this moment is marked by her complete transition to her role in the external conflict. At this point, she has let go of her romantic fancy for Cloud and has committed herself to the bigger picture. It is at this point that she leaves the party, and leaves Cloud in the Sleeping Forest, to fulfill her role as a Cetra.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: The protagonist sacrifices their unrequited love, realizing they need to move on for the sake of their own emotional well-being or greater purposes. This is a bittersweet moment of acceptance and self-growth, where they let go of the hope that kept them holding on for so long.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist may realize that holding on to unrequited love is only hurting them or preventing them from reaching a greater purpose.

Example: For Aerith, this point in the arc is less about Cloud and more about her role in the external conflict. This is the point in which she travels to the Forgotten City, prays, and ultimately is killed. However, it is bittersweet and tragic for her, ultimately, because she dies with unrequited love from Cloud and without ever getting closure on her true love, Zack.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: Instead of a declaration of mutual love, this is the protagonist’s internal declaration of acceptance. They start the process of moving on.

Unrequited Love Layer: The protagonist lets go of the love interest in their heart, realizing that they need to focus on their own future. The love interest is likely unaware of this internal shift, but it’s a powerful moment of growth for the protagonist.

Example: For Aerith, this is perhaps best viewed in her complete transition after death to the larger role she plays as the heroine of the planet from within the Lifestream. Her arc has fully transitioned away from her feelings for Cloud into her greater purpose. In FF7R, we can hope to see how Zack, who has been trying to find her, begins to impact this next phase of her arc.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: Instead of a traditional happy ending, this is a reflective, bittersweet resolution. The character has grown emotionally. There is a sense of closure, though it may come with lingering heartache.

Unrequited Love Layer: The character has let go of the hope that their love would ever be returned. They are stronger for it and have moved on.

Example: For Aerith and Cloud, this moment is best summed up by their brief Lifestream reunion at the end of the game. It will be intriguing to see how this moment is expanded and provides closure for Cloud and Aerith’s relationship, as well as Zack’s role in both.

Zack/Aerith: Long Lost Love/Tragic Love Arc

This arc is a little more complicated to map out since it is not only incomplete but riddled with mysteries at this point. However, I’m going to do my best to make the connections based on the information we have and where we can theorize things may be going.

Act 1: The Beginning

The Hook

Romance Structure: Introduction / Setup

Purpose: Establish the protagonist’s life after the estrangement, showing how unresolved feelings for their lost lover impact their emotional world. There’s a sense of longing and unfinished business that propels the protagonist’s actions.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist is haunted by memories of their estranged lover and driven by a deep desire to find them again. This longing is fueled by unresolved emotional wounds, and the protagonist clings to the hope of a reunion.

Example: In Rebirth, from the beginning, Zack is singularly focused on reuniting with Aerith. After his escape from Nibelheim, even as he carries the wounded Cloud, Zack’s thoughts are consumed by Aerith. His love for her pushes him forward despite the dangerous and confusing circumstances he finds himself in. Zack’s motivation intensifies when he discovers, through a newscast, that Aerith is in danger. This revelation shifts Zack from hopeful longing to immediate action, driving home the urgency of his quest. His decision to prioritize Aerith’s safety over everything else, including Cloud, underscores how central Aerith is to his purpose, raising the stakes for his emotional journey.

The Inciting Incident

Romance Structure: The Call to Adventure

Purpose: The inciting incident transitions the protagonist from passive longing to active pursuit of reunion. Some event or revelation forces the protagonist to act, prompting them to seek out their estranged lover. Often, this is triggered by the discovery that the lover may be in danger.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist realizes that simply hoping for a reunion isn’t enough—there’s now a tangible reason for urgency. This event serves as a catalyst for the protagonist to fully commit to the journey of reconnecting with their lover, increasing the stakes as they shift from passive longing to active pursuit.

Example: After mysteriously "surviving" his last stand against Shinra (as seen at the end of Crisis Core), Zack rescues Aerith from Shinra’s grasp in Rebirth. However, instead of a triumphant reunion, the moment is clouded with confusion and tragedy. This rescue scene signals Zack’s deep emotions for Aerith and heightens the sense of foreboding in their relationship arc. The player quickly realizes that the reunion isn’t straightforward and that darker forces are at play, casting a shadow over Zack’s determined rescue.

First Plot Point

Romance Structure: Refusal of the Call / First Obstacle

Purpose: The first major obstacle or refusal of the call introduces the initial challenges the protagonist faces in their pursuit of the lost lover. Despite their determination, external forces or internal doubts surface, complicating the journey.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist’s optimism about reuniting with their estranged lover is challenged by harsh realities—whether through physical danger, supernatural elements, or emotional barriers. This moment introduces doubts about whether a reunion is possible, raising tension and uncertainty.

Example: Zack eventually brings a comatose Aerith and Cloud to Elmyra’s house. Zack’s devotion to them is evident as he cares for them despite their unresponsive states, but the world around him behaves in strange ways. The eerie sense of something deeply wrong in Sector 5 hints that Zack’s reality—and Aerith’s fate—are far from certain. He’s not just fighting to reunite with Aerith; he’s battling a reality that is becoming increasingly unstable. The player shares in Zack’s growing sense of anxiety and confusion, setting the tone for the more tragic layers of their arc to come.

First Pinch Point / Acceptance of the Quest

Romance Structure: Giving the Relationship a Chance

Purpose: The protagonist resolves to pursue their lost lover, hoping to rekindle what they once had. However, unresolved issues and emotional scars from the past begin to surface, complicating their journey.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Time and distance have changed both characters, making reconnection difficult. The focus is on how time has altered both individuals and the lingering emotional weight of their separation.

Example: Zack’s attempt to reunite with Aerith is complicated by the metaphysical separation created by the Lifestream. Aerith remains comatose, as does Cloud, and Zack has to contend with both his own internal conflict as he tries to help them as well as the external conflict of his strange and mysterious circumstances within "Sector 5".

Midpoint Crisis / Trials and Temptations

Romance Structure: Midpoint / I-Need-You-But-Can’t-Have-You

Purpose: The protagonist’s need for their lost lover intensifies, but the relationship is far more complicated than expected. Old wounds and emotional or external barriers resurface, making reunion seem out of reach. Despite their determination, the protagonist begins to doubt whether they can ever restore what they once had.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Time and emotional distance have changed the dynamics of their relationship. While both may care for each other, the past cannot easily be erased, and their attempts to reconnect are fraught with tension.

Example: External forces such as Sephiroth’s manipulations, and Aerith’s internal conflict over Cloud create an emotional barrier between her and Zack. Aerith, “asleep” in Zack’s world, remains unaware of his presence. As Zack learns from Marlene that Aerith’ "likes" Cloud, more tension and conflict is added. Despite these challenges, Zack remains unwavering in his commitment to reconnect with Aerith, determined to overcome the growing emotional distance.

Second Pinch Point / The Road Back

Romance Structure: Pulling Back Together

Purpose: The protagonist makes another push to reconnect with their lost lover despite significant setbacks. Faced with the reality that time is running out, the protagonist must act decisively to restore the relationship. While emotional connections may deepen, unresolved challenges threaten the outcome, leaving uncertainty in the air.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: Despite growing obstacles, the protagonist remains committed to rekindling the relationship. The emotional and physical distance between the lovers may still seem insurmountable, but the protagonist refuses to give up, holding onto the hope that they can salvage what they once had.

Example: Even as Zack’s hope begins to wane, he remains steadfast in his desire to reunite with Aerith. Zack finds himself pulled in multiple directions, creating additional conflicts. External forces and emotional entanglements continue to complicate their relationship, but Zack’s determination to bridge the emotional gap keeps pushing him forward. This section of Rebirth continues to heavily foreshadow both the truth about Zack as well as the future of Zack and Aerith's relationship, despite the conflicts.

Act 3: The End

The Crisis / Dark Moment

Romance Structure: The Break-Up / Darkest Hour

Purpose: The protagonist faces their darkest moment, where it seems that the reunion will never happen. Emotional scars or external forces tear the lovers apart, and the protagonist believes they’ve lost their final chance to reconnect. The relationship nears failure as the protagonist faces the harsh reality of their situation.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The conflict grows to the point of no return. Previous mistakes or external conflicts surface, causing the relationship to fall apart, and the protagonist is left devastated, feeling that the reunion may never come.

Example: In Rebirth, this moment comes near the ending of the game when Sephiroth's confluence of worlds plays a role in role in further uprooting Zack's existence in the Lifestream. We also know that this is the time that Aerith dies in the real world, further complicating matters and adding new layers of conflict.

The Sacrifice / The Crisis Resolution

Romance Structure: The Sacrifice

Purpose: The protagonist realizes that to win back their lost lover, they must sacrifice their pride, fear, or ego. This emotional climax reflects their willingness to make a grand gesture or display vulnerability, showing they’ll do whatever it takes for a second chance.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The protagonist makes a final, heartfelt plea to the estranged lover, acknowledging their mistakes and baring their soul. The lover, moved by the sincerity, must decide whether or not to take the risk of rekindling the relationship.

Example: Although we don’t yet know how this will play out in the Remake series, it’s likely that Part 3 will feature a reunion between Zack and Aerith. The conflicts that have built up—including Aerith’s internal struggle regarding Cloud—will need resolution. Advent Children (ACC) shows Zack and Aerith together in the Lifestream, setting the stage for a reunion in the Remake. The exact nature of this reunion remains speculative, but it’s likely Zack will make a significant sacrifice or grand gesture to resolve the emotional conflicts that have kept them apart.

The Climax / Declaration

Romance Structure: Declaration

Purpose: The estranged lover finally decides to take the risk and give the relationship another chance. After much internal struggle, they admit they’ve never stopped loving the protagonist, and they’re ready to move forward together. This is the emotional peak where both characters commit to each other.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: The reconciliation finally happens. After everything they’ve endured, the estranged lover acknowledges their lingering feelings and agrees to rebuild the relationship. Both characters take a leap of faith, trusting that they can overcome the past and move forward.

Example: Though speculative, if the arc follows the long lost lovers trope, Zack and Aerith will likely experience a heartfelt reunion in Part 3. Their lingering feelings would finally be acknowledged, clearing up Aerith’s complicated feelings for Cloud while reaffirming her bond with Zack. This declaration of love would also tie into the larger narrative arc, offering emotional resolution for both characters and allowing their story to move forward, especially in support of Aerith's role in the external conflict of the Planet.

The Resolution / Denouement

Romance Structure: Denouement / HEA

Purpose: The story concludes with a glimpse of the couple in their newly rekindled relationship. The emotional weight of their past has been lifted, and they are now ready to face the future together. Even if circumstances prevent a traditional “happy ending,” there is emotional closure and a sense of peace.

Long Lost Lovers Layer: After the pain, separation, and emotional struggle, the couple is finally together. The audience is left with a sense that their love will endure this time, offering a bittersweet but satisfying conclusion to their long journey.

Example: In Advent Children (ACC), we see Zack and Aerith reunited in the Lifestream, helping Cloud in his final battle. Their reunion suggests that, while they may no longer live in the physical world, their connection endures beyond death. Though bittersweet, their reunion offers emotional closure. The final installment of the Remake series will likely bring full resolution to Zack and Aerith’s arc, providing a satisfying conclusion, even if there are tragic elements along the way.

Final Thoughts: The Love Triangle is a Narrative Illusion

Cloud and Tifa’s Slow-Burn Childhood Friends to Lovers (Canon)

Cloud and Tifa’s relationship in Final Fantasy VII is a carefully crafted slow burn, rooted in a deep bond that extends back to their childhood in Nibelheim. Their connection is not built on superficial or flimsy romantic interactions but on a shared past and the quiet intimacy that grows from years of unspoken longing but is complicated by trauma.

Cloud and Tifa’s natural chemistry is driven by their subconscious desires and the deep, unspoken feelings they have for one another. For Cloud, his buried emotions instinctively reach out to Tifa, even though he isn’t fully aware of them. The narrative hides these true feelings, but subtle moments of affection and protectiveness reveal that, deep down, Cloud’s heart is already tied to hers, laying the groundwork for their eventual emotional connection.

The game’s emotional climax in the Lifestream, where Tifa helps Cloud piece together his shattered memories, is a pivotal moment in which both characters finally confront the depth of their feelings for each other. Their journey isn’t one of dramatic declarations, but rather a gradual, emotional reconnection that allows deeply held, mutual love and longing to blossom—a love that is grounded in shared history, healing, and mutual understanding and compassion.

This slow-burn romance stands as the true heart of Cloud’s emotional journey, dispelling the illusion of a love triangle and making it clear that Cloud’s deepest emotional ties are with Tifa.

Aerith and Cloud’s Unrequited Love / Not Meant to Be Semi-Canon/One-sided) (Fanon - mutual)

The dynamic between Aerith and Cloud, while often misinterpreted as romantic, is better understood through the lens of unrequited love and fate’s intervention. Aerith’s initial attraction to Cloud is undeniably influenced by his resemblance to her first love, Zack Fair.

As time goes on, Aerith tries to see Cloud for who he is, but tragically, this is not possible before her death, and her feelings remain complicated and unreciprocated. Their bond, while significant as friendship, never goes beyond that, reinforcing the fact that Aerith’s feelings for Cloud are more of an echo of her past with Zack.

Cloud's true self being in love with Tifa and Aerith’s tragic death seal the fate of their relationship as one that was never meant to be—a fleeting connection, shaped by circumstance rather than true compatibility.

The tragedy of this unfulfilled arc serves as a powerful narrative device, but it is clear that Cloud and Aerith were never destined to end up together, further dispelling the notion of a love triangle.

Zack and Aerith’s Long Lost Love / Tragic Love (Canon)

Zack and Aerith’s relationship is the quintessential tragic love story in Final Fantasy VII, defined by separation, longing, and loss. Aerith’s first love, Zack, vanishes from her life without explanation, leaving her with unanswered questions and unresolved feelings. Even as she begins to move forward, her heart never fully lets go of Zack, who is revealed to have fought valiantly to return to her—only to tragically lose his life in the process.

The tragedy of their love lies in the fact that both characters hold onto each other, but fate conspires to keep them apart, making their love story one of the most emotionally poignant elements in the game. Even in death, their connection endures, with Zack and Aerith appearing together in the Lifestream in ACC, symbolizing a love that transcends life itself. This arc, while bittersweet, resolves the narrative of Aerith’s romantic life—Zack was her true love, and Cloud was a reflection of the man she had lost, not a new love interest.

Their tragic love story dispels the myth of a love triangle in Final Fantasy VII, emphasizing that Aerith’s heart always belonged to Zack, even as she developed a bond with Cloud during her journey.

All of the relationships in the game are important. However, Cloud/Tifa & Zack/Aerith are the canon, mutual romantic relationships of Final Fantasy VII. Cloud/Aerith have a cherished friendship, but any romantic subtext of their relationship in the game is used as a vehicle to drive the conflicts and truths of the canon relationships forward. This is accomplished through illusions and subversions in storytelling, as well as creating internal conflict for the characters and canon relationships.

FFVII’s storytelling is deliberately designed to mislead the player through incomplete truths and emotional misdirection, including the use of red herrings, illusions, unreliable narration, and the omission of critical information or context. Cloud’s confused memories and persona, coupled with Aerith’s initial attraction to him based on his similarities to Zack, create the illusion of a romantic triangle, but the deeper truths—Cloud’s unresolved trauma and false identity, Tifa’s role as the keeper of Cloud’s real past and his true feelings, and Aerith’s ultimate fate as the Planet’s protector and her true love being Zack—gradually dismantle this illusionary love triangle.

I cannot stress enough that FFVII is not a love drama or soap opera where the game’s conflict centers on romantic rivalries, betrayal, deception, or morally questionable behaviors.. It’s a complex story that focuses on themes of life, loss, identity, self-discovery, legacy, and on and on.

Love - all kinds of love, including romantic, platonic, and familial - is a theme of FFVII, but truly and holistically, not for the sake of creating meaningless drama between the characters. The relationship dynamics appear messy at times in the earlier parts of the story, but these dynamics are designed to help us reach the proper conclusions about the story and the characters’ arcs, and how true love is a vehicle for reaching resolution for both.

Player’s choice is irrelevant to the plot. You cannot decide or alter the story structure or direction or individual character arcs or relationships. The most you can do is view the game through a slightly different lens by gaining an expanded understanding of character arcs and motivation with new replays.

Shipping is a fandom construct. It’s meant to be fun, and you can ship whatever you like. But shipping doesn’t intersect with the facts of a story or its narrative. Lying about any piece of media to convince yourself or others of its canonicity is bizarre behavior.

Respect the work and its intention, while having your shipping fun within your fandom. Don't embarrass yourself by saying an FF protagonist kissing the girl he’s loved since childhood and joined the army to impress means nothing, or worse, proves he the opposite of a hero.

You can ship your fanon without doing all that.

Last thing: Reunion is a primary theme of Final Fantasy VII. You may have noticed that it is also a primary theme for both of the canon romantic relationships. Personally, I believe that Part Three is going to drive this message home in a way that is unmistakable. I also believe that both lovers' reunions will be instrumental in resolving all of the conflicts of FFVII in the final game.

It’s not a coincidence that both reunions will take place in the Lifestream, or that they've been foreshadowed by the presence of the yellow flower.

I also believe that the dual Rebirth cover arts, described by Tetsuya Nomura as Sephiroth "tearing Cloud and Zack's worlds apart" are heavily foreshadowing the resolution of these relationships along with their connection to the the larger story structures of FFVII/FFVIIR.

Let's wait and see when Part 3 comes along.

[the-cat-and-the-birdie]

Another case for Mild!Miguel:

HOBIE is the reason I think Mild!Miguel exists. Hear me Out:

Inversions & Parallels in ATSV

[A post where I talk about how the existence of Hobie's arc backs up and/or proves my Mild Miguel theory.

MEDIUM length, I talk about plot connections and writing stuff as well as my predictions for Miguel in BTSV.]

Subversions: Character Building in ATSV

One thing that sets ATSV apart from a lot of other Superhero movies is that it's centered around not 'heroing', but the characters and the relationships they hold.

Each character in ATSV has a Subversion in their arc.

Subversions being the defying of the audience's expectations pre-conceived notion of a character. Almost every character we see experiences a conflict with how we first understand them.

Gwen goes from being closeted and closed off both emotionally and literally in terms of her Spider-identity. She starts the movie pushing away her close friends, and ends her arc embracing her dad.

With Jess, she is introduced as a family woman, who talks about her husband and child openly. When in reality, she's not a familial or a parental figure in the slightest.

Pavitr is introduced as a confident guy, who can effortlessly save everybody and still have time for school, a relationship, and a collection of streetdogs. But in reality, he's still just a kid who hasn't taken an L yet. He needs help, panics and sucks at hiding his secret identity.

Peter is shown as a happy comfortable new father who has perfected the art of being a full time dad and changing avocado poop pampers. But later, we see he's just a guy, still figuring this whole dad thing out.

With Rio & Jeff, they start the movie literally grounding Miles, and by the end, they're forced to trust him out there in the big world.

Even Miles experiences this, as he goes from a kid who wants to be apart of something bigger - before realizing that he only needs himself.

The writers of ATSV use these subversion in order to make three dimensional characters.

And Hobie Brown, may be the best example of this. The Writers preying on our pre-conceived notions of punk, and love triangles to give us a vision of Hobie before he even appears on screen.

In the film Hobie, is the only subversion that is purposeful. He's the only one doing this behavior on conscious effort.

Hobie is an outlier. His subversion is intentional - and doing this gives him enough power to exercise a lot of influence over the plot going forward.

Hobie Brown is the king of Subversion.

But who doesn't have a Subversion? Miguel.

But let's hold that thought for a second.

Parallels: Relationship Building in ATSV

All of the subversions are what cause conflict in plot. And in ATSV, ever character and their conflict, as an a equal reflection of their situation - A Parallel.

And the same way each character experiences a subversion, that leads to conflict -

Each Conflict has a Parallel situation that mirrors theirs.

And these parallels can help us predict the story.

Gwen & Miles Parallel each other:

Miles' family is desperate to be apart of his life, while Gwen's family - her father, openly rejects her. And in the end: Miles ends up as far away from his parents as possible, around the same time Gwen returns to her fathers arms.

Jess & Peter Parallel each other:

Jess begins the story with a hands-off mentoring approach - while Peter's is more emotionally driven. And in the end: Jess begins questioning her callousness towards Gwen, meanwhile Peter questions if his approach and babying of Miles is actually what he needs.

Rio & Jeff Parallel each other:

Rio starting the film being more stern on Miles - the last one in the guidance consolers office and the one to remind him of the cake. Meanwhile, Miles' dad is the one trying to cut Miles some slack. And in the end: Rio is the more open one - she's the one who lets Miles go with Gwen, and the one who hears when out at the end. Meanwhile Miles' dad is the opposite - ready to jump at the accusation of drugs. (lmao)

Hell, even characters that we see on screen for less than ten minutes could be considered parallels:

Pavitr & Margo Parallel each other:

Pavitr is inexperienced, but loving life. He's out in the field enjoying himself and his universe. While Margo is more experienced. She works the Go-Home Machine. But unlike Pavitr, she's not out in the field, and she doesn't enjoy her universe. By the end of their arcs: Pavitr is humbled and realizes there's some dark moments that come with Spider-man, and some close calls. While Margo regains her motivation and spark through Miles, heading out in the field again.

Every character has a subversion - Ever subversion causes conflict - and every conflict leads to a parallel. And through that, the story is made.

Just one problem:

Hobie doesn't have a Parallel. Neither does Miguel.

Why does Hobie - the only one who purposely uses subversion - not have a parallel?

If Hobie is 'The guy playing a pretentious fake punk based on people's preconceived notions of his ideology and appearance, who uses it to his advantage only when he wants to, and uses it for good - that results in a growth in community'

Where is 'The guy playing a pretentious authority figure based on people's preconceived notions of his ideology and appearance, who uses it to his advantage only when he wants to, and uses it for evil that results in a loss of community.'

Where is that guy? Can you find him?

Oh, damn it's Miguel.

Story Structure in ATSV:

If we look at the story structure of ATSV not only do we see that there's subversions and parallels, but we see a hole in the story.

With each character going on an arc the completely subverts audiences expectations - Why doesn't Miguel? (he does.)

And with each subversion, in Hobie's case, if everyone has an reflection of themselves and their situation that tie them into the story by common themes - Why doesn't Hobie? (he does.)

Why is Hobie the face of 'fake rebel that leads to great purposeful action' - and there's no 'fake leader than leads to horrible un-purposeful action'? (there is)

Did the Writers just leave this hole, and not tie Miguel and Hobie's arc in the same way as everyone elses?

No. There is a connection there.

Hobie is Miguel's reflection. Miguel is his parallel. Miguel's subversion is that he's not mean. He's putting on a persona.

Their parallel is - that they're both putting on an act. One for rebellion, one for order.

The difference is - Hobie enjoys his act, he uses it for good, and good things come of it. When he drops his mask as the 'fake punk', he does it out of the urge to empower himself.

Hence why he demasks himself in the comics.

And on Miguel's hand - He doesn't enjoy his act, he uses it for bad, and bad things come of it. When Miguel drops his mask and tells Miles two days, that is his mask dropping. It happens not out of empowerment, but vulnerability.

The whole scene in the lair is a purposeful ACT. That's why when he looks at Hobie (ironically, his parallel) he is able to turn it off immediately. Within seconds.

Whereas Hobie drops his mask in times of trust or action and rebellion - Miguel drops his in times of apathy or vulnerability - aka HIM SHOWING MILES GAB'S DEATH.

Miguel's conversation with Miles here - is the only time we see him not putting on the 'evil, angry, grumpy boss' mask.

He's vulnerable. This is Miguel unmasked. MILD MIGUEL.

While they were walking - Hobie takes his 'fake punk' mask off to be candid with Miles. He speaks honestly and offers empathy - and that is the GOOD inciting incident for Miles' rebellion.

Miguel is the parallel.

He purposely strips his 'fake mean boss' mask off in order to be candid with Miles. He speaks honestly and offers empathy - by telling him how long his father had to live (something he didn't have to do). And that empathy that Miguel gives is the BAD inciting incident for Miles' rebellion.

And when Miles is faced with the parallel of both Hobie and Miguel in rapid succession - it's enough to spawn him to escape.

Hobie and Miguel are opposing but mirrored forces on Miles.

Every character has a subversion. Every subversion causes conflict. Every conflict causes a parallel that spans action.

If Miguel doesn't have a subversion - and Hobie doesn't have a parallel, then how can those conflicts meet? Why this gap in the writing.

If Hobie does have a parallel, the only one left is Miguel.

But, if we're to believe that Hobie does have a parallel, and Miguel is that parallel - then naturally, they're mirrors of each other - and just like Hobie is - Miguel is putting on an act too.

And because the strongest representation of Miguel we see is anger, we know the anger is a mask for something else; aka MILD!MIGUEL

Which is what we see at the climax scene, the real Miguel.

Miguel and Hobie reveal their true colors at the same time, because they're parallels.

Hobie chuckles - the next shot - Miguel snaps.

It's meant to show in that moment in those two shots, these two characters are at their emotional peak. A battle between the two of them - convincing Miles - that Miguel doesn't even know about.

Hobie wins in this moment, Miguel loses, and we see them completely demasked, come to find out - we were wrong, Hobie the one in control and calm - and Miguel is not, he's grasping for control in anyway possible and it's literally slipping from his hands.

There stories are linked, and they barely share any lines at all.

Mild!Miguel exists because Anarchist!Hobie exists.

And all of this is why I think the following:

My predictions for BTSV:

Looking at Hobie's arc:

Fake Persona - Persuasive Set-Up (Talk with Miles) - Inciting Incident around Miles that leads to action (Miles breaks out, Hobie leaves to give Gwen the watch) - Self evaluation and commitment to the cause (joining the gang)

I think Miguel's is gonna follow the same thing

Fake Persona - Persuasive Set Up (This is Everything Speech) - Inciting Incident around Miles (Miles breaks out, Miguel snaps) - Self evaluation and commitment to the cause

Miguel re-evaluates himself and changes sides, turning the Societies resources on Spot.

Based on the subversions, parallels and plot arcs we see in ATSV, my most honest guess is:

Miguel is gonna redeem himself by choice very early into the film.

You know how the first half of ATSV is writen so when you rewatch it again, you'll see the complexities of Hobie's character?

I think the whole movie is written that way. So when you rewatch it AFTER Beyond the Spider-Verse, you can see the complexities of Miguel's character as well.

______________________________ THERE THATS WHY I THINK MILD MIGUEL EXISTS BESIDES EVERYTHING ELSE AND ALL THE VISUAL QUES AND STUFF. THIS IS THE MAIN REASON.

THAT'S WHAT I MEANT I'm so relieved to finally make sense of it. GOSSSSHHH

If you read this far, thank you for your time and entertaining me I'm SO SERIOUS THANK YOU

Please let me know what you think I'm DYING to know

Anyway closing RANT BELOW

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

[Warning: I go Miguel Mode below]

Thats why this WHOLE TIME I've been like he's RIGHT THERE HJSGDGKDS Cause like -- the story calls for it. if hes not faking why does he have that platform???? Why doesn't Hobie have a paralllel?? Like why is Hobie just this random ass OP character randomly dropped in for funsies - he isn't he's there to reflect Miguel's fake power. Hobie hides his true power the way Miguel hides his powerlessness AHHHHH

THATS WHAT IVE BEEN TRYING TO PUT IN WORDS!! THAT LIKE...I WAS WATCHING THE MOVIE *deep breath* I FEEL SO RELIEVED.

I was watching the movie and feeling like somethings missing in the story - that there's a whole connection that's MISSING There's SOMETHING we're not getting - there's something there. Something that can tells us SO much about the next movie

and seeing peoples interpretations of Miguel made me be like no.... he cant be the only 3 dimensional one. Everyone is the OPPOSITE of what we think they are. Everyone.

And everyone has a parallel. And this is the connection that is missing.

tTHIS IS WHAT I MEANT HOLY FUCK I FINALLY FIGURED OUT HOW TO SAY IT.

When I say 'He's in the room with us, he's standing right there' - I mean 'His existence as a character is what completes the plot. Mild!Miguel HAS to be there logically speaking'

DO YOU GET WHAT I MEAN LIKE MILD MIGUEL AND MIGUELS ACT AS THE LEADER IS CENTRAL TO THIS MOVIE AND THE NEXT.

MILD MIGUEL IS GONNA BE A HUGE PART OF THE NEXT MOVIE

ahhhhhhhhhhHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH.

Anyway if you're still here after THAT Hello hi I love you - Please tell me your thoughts and if you think it makes sense!

Here's Hobie for your travels!

Bye.

[milkbreadtoast]

Here's a v quick vague rushed half assed TWSB propaganda post

TWSB is a romance novel isekai subversion story. You know, the escapist genre that there r 2353533535 kr webtoons/novels for... i got reincarnated in my fav romance novel as the villainess yadayada THAT genre. but a twist on it!!!

TWSB is for fujoshi/fudanshi/fujin who would rather ship the 2 male love interests in a romance than have a love triangle with the female lead... TWSB is also for poly/throuple/trio enjoyers (whether platonic or not ur choice). And old women yuri enjoyers. And people who enjoy novel isekai subversions like orv and surviving romance (and SVSS? i havent read but ive heard comparisons)... /ppl who think novel isekai premises Could be interesting but find so many of them boring cliche or wasted potential... and people who like fun worldbuilding... or ppl who r interested in the premise "typical shoujo romance novel plot gets derailed and ends up accidentally becoming a non-romance action fantasy which is also highkey extremely gay"..... *dangling a chocolate croissant in front of u* ooooh u want to read twsb so bad wooooo is it worki

(EDIT: oh to be clear im recommending the novel btw!! webtoon is cute but the novel is where u get the full experience 🛐 idc which one u start w but pls read the novel... hehe)

[gayofthefae]

Watching van scene reactions and confirming a single conclusion:

Everyone is rooting for Will. They're just not predicting him. I have yet to see a reaction in which they realized Will was about to confess or were listening to him confess and were sad about the idea. Always excited. As one is for a romantic trope. As one is for a love confession.

If you are fully confident that someone will not end up with who they love, then you are sad when they express their feelings because it is heartbreaking. But consistently, people are excited. Because, though they don't analyze it and only think about what they're watching as they're watching I do they wouldn't be able to answer you, as they are watching it, they're anticipating Will's confession, giddy at the painting.

No one is reacting to Will's love as a romantic tragedy. They're reacting to it as a romantic trope. Some are even, much like Finn himself, calling out to Mike to notice. Even if only on instinct, why would you want Mike to know if you didn't at least want him to reciprocate? If part of you didn't expect based on the trajectory of tropes that him finding out will lead to a happy ending for Will. What's the difference of him knowing if it isn't actionable? The answer is it is.

They're excited at Will's confession because they're excited about the idea of Mike knowing because they think hope that when he finds out, he'll do something about it.

And as an addendum, as I've speculated before: seldom do they comment on Mike during El's scenes, only ever lore and her independence, as is intended by the focus of her plotline, and in the case of Mike himself, the most I have heard is "ohhh, he wants to feel needed". They likely believe that Mike has feelings for El right now but that also doesn't bar them from believing that Mike and Will could end up together. That's how having an entire season left of a TV show works.

They are honestly not even rooting for a couple. At all. They are rooting for characters. If Mike says he wants to feel needed, they want him to feel needed. If Will says he wants Mike, they want him to have Mike. As I've said before, the general audience only want Mike and El together because MIKE told them it's what he wants. To quote a reaction to another show I recently watched "I'm rooting for [his] happiness, I just need to know what [he] wants so I know what to root for". That's it. It only becomes more than that if you became deeply, rigidly invested prior to this plotline. Otherwise, you'll trust what the characters tell you will make them happy and root for it. That trust in someone's word is how they set up the subversion, and that is how they'll break it back down.

Most people aren't pissed about love triangles unless they're pissed on behalf of either a character themself or the destruction of a character's arc to get there. Otherwise, if the characters say they're happy and are believable, then they're happy.

Edit: I have seen a bit more apprehension about Steve's confession, actually. Because Byler isn't a love triangle and emotionally they know it even if logically they don't yet.