#like a person is allowed to dislike a character

[1moreff-creator]

What are some dynamics (in terms of like, foils/parallels) that you enjoy in DRDT?

you’re staring at a forest and asking me for every tree i like. do you want me to write another 28k word post /lh

I jest, of course, but not about the number of interesting foils in this series. It does a fantastic job tying everyone into several key themes in ways that make their dynamics endlessly enriching for my silly little character parallel-loving brain. So, uh, get ready for a long-ish post?

CW: One mention of self-harm, self-loathing

Teruko-David: I mean, you gotta start at the center, yeah? David’s the closest thing to a “main antag” we have, and it’s no wonder; the guy’s built like a standard DR protag, obviously he’s gonna have a cool dynamic with the actual protagonist. 

These two could breathe a bit weird and somehow parallel each other doing it, that’s how much this foil permeates both their characters. From their fatalistic outlooks on the world (“my luck will always be terrible, I’ll always be betrayed” vs “people can’t change, the world sucks”), the ways they hide their feelings (Teruko was more distrustful than she first presented herself as, but cares about people more than she shows during most of CH2; while David has an entire different persona up to 2-11 and then pretends to be worse than he actually is), the self-loathing (Teruko refuses to think she could be a good person, David has the whole “inhuman” thing going on), down to the oddball sibling figure (Terubro “I know nothing about you” Tawaki vs Diana “I’m not even sure you exist” Chiem).

There’s their feelings about Xander and Min, too, which are all over the place. Obviously we all saw in 2-12 how much the British twink fucked both of them up severely, with Teruko rejecting any positive or yearning feelings she may have had about Xander (you can’t hide the cactus scene from us girl) while David vehemently defended him from any criticism. On the other side, Min is less of a narrative poltergeist (for now; XF-Ture exists), but she still comes up with them, with David calling her pathetic eleven episodes after Min hugs Teruko and Teruko’s internal monologue gives away how much she cares about the Student. 

And these parallels play into their weird-ass dynamic very well, because their beefing is founded on their similarities and their differences, out of projecting their self-loathing to someone similar at the same time they hate each other because of their disagreements on things like Xander. Crazy stuff.

Xander-Min: Mentioning these two second because they’re also Eternal Parallels. There’s almost not a single thing about these two that isn’t somehow reflected on the other. If you projected them onto each other’s direction, you would get no perpendicular component. Get it, ‘cuz they’re completely parallel- That is, by far, the nerdiest joke I’ve ever made, I apologize.

But come on. Their attitudes towards fate (the Rebel fighting it and Min resigning herself to the XF-Ture thing), the whole “holding on to the past vs wanting to move on from the past” thing, the similarities between how they actually feel about the education system (they have issues with it) contrasted with the things they actually do in respects to that (Min is still the Ultimate Student, but Xander dislikes that), their already mentioned contrasting connections to Teruko and David… Just, absolutely everything about them is a meaningful contrast. And it comes into play a lot, with their eternal beef being born largely out of these parallels. They’re awesome.

Teruko-Ace: Pretty topical for post-CH2. Ace’s entire arc is sort of a reflection of Teruko’s, yet taken to the extreme because of one particular point of contrast; Ace feared death, Teruko doesn’t think she can die. But he still basically serves as a demonstration of all the flaws in Teruko’s all mindset; the feeling of unchangeable fate, the complete lack of trust, all the good stuff. It basically allows an exploration of Teruko’s mindset from an outside perspective, which makes it easier to see the flaws in it.

Ace-Nico: Also topical, these recap foils go kinda insane. Their motives for murder, their contrasting talents (love for animals on Nico's side and fear of horses on Ace's), the way they relate to the rest of the cast, Ace's persecution complex vs Nico actively disliking how much Hu defends them, etc., it’s all very fun to see play out. 

Ace-Levi: The one who doesn’t care but protects others and tries his best to be a good person so he can be accepted in society without having issues, vs the guy that acts like an asshole because he’s scared of caring too much and he thinks the only way he can get out alive is by being the only one to survive. This leads to a fundamental misunderstanding between them that causes some of the most doomed yaoi of all time, which is the whole “Levi getting frustrated at not understanding Ace.” 

Arei-David: You’ve presumably watched 2-13, so I don’t think I need to explain all the awesome stuff that’s come from their shared themes of “good people” and self-betterment and all that. Not to mention, David’s little breakdown over Arei trusting the letter of the only friend she had being presumably born from the way he saw Xander as the only friend he had. Shit goes crazy.

Arei-Eden: Recap foils… Good people… The choice to be kind… Etc… Woah :O

Teruko-Charles: Ah, Teru’s recap foil. This one’s basically opposite of Ace’s, where Charles used to be sort of like Teruko acted in CH2, but later became a bit friendlier, if still somewhat prickly. Basically, if Ace highlights Teruko’s character traits from CH2, Charles post CH1 serves as more or less the “end goal” in a way. It goes beyond that, too, with the whole memory issues (prosopagnosia vs childhood amnesia) and, again, mysterious siblings (Terubro and Elliot what are your deals), so it’s always neat to rotate these two in the brain.

Veronika-Levi: We really don’t know too much about Vero, which always makes it a bit harder when analyzing these dynamics, but they already got some interesting points of contrast. Neither of them are particularly concerned about the deaths of the others, at least post-CH2 (Levi doesn’t grieve and Vero actively laughs at Ace’s death), but it comes from almost opposite ends of perspective. Levi doesn’t understand others because he doesn’t feel much empathy (if any at all), while Vero seems to treat the others not as people, but almost as characters to be analyzed (that’s the impression I get, at least), which makes her come off as very good at reading people but also occasionally causes her to see them as sources of entertainment first and foremost. Not to mention there’s also the fact they’re both very different people than they were in the past (Levi was some form of delinquent and now is a good person, Vero used to be outdoorsy and then no longer was). Wow that’s… more than I thought there was- How am I finding more interesting foils just by writing more???

Hu-Levi: I kinda talked about this in my CH2 PT2 analysis so read that ig.

J-Rose: A pair of recap foils who haven’t had too much yet, but a lot of their themes, in particular about fate and privilege and stuff, are pretty noticeable with them, so this is always a fun dynamic to consider.

Levi-Arturo: More recap foils, this one’s fun because of the dead family member :) Also things like their talents being related to aesthetics and both doing the things they do for a better life.

Veronika-Hu: This one’s kinda more hypothetical, since Vero in particular hasn’t had as much direct focus as other characters yet, but that’s part of what makes them fun. Past history of self-harm (even if brought on by very different feelings) is just the first of many parallels they could have, and it’s fun to see the contrast between Hu defending Nico to the ends of the Earth and Vero talking about how much she likes Arturo because of how awful he is. They’re really silly.

David-Whit: All the recap foils are fun, but I've always struggled to see this one in particular. Partly because I feel like I know less about Whit than I know about Mai :v Still, certain things like Whit ignoring anything that upsets him which connects to David constantly lying about his real feelings for his fans, which is probably what leads to David's outburst at Whit in the second trial.

Teruko-MonoTV: Because fate. Really this is here plainly because it’s just a funny as hell dynamic to even consider lol.

Teruko-Mai: Have they interacted? Has Mai had enough screen time to truly determine that this parallel truly exists? Do we even know a single theme that Mai’s character touches on for certain? No and it doesn’t matter! Because these two are clearly connected somehow and the whole “someone dearly loved - someone dearly unloved” thing makes me ill. Mai is getting mentioned in this post and you're not stopping it.

Mai-Whit: Fuck it! “We tend to idolize the dead” dynamic!!! It's very speculative, but this one’s just fun to ponder even if we have even less idea of what could be going on between the two than with Mai-Teruko.

Anyways ready for a few themes that run through a lot of characters?

David-Levi-Nico-Rose: The “feeling disconnected from the rest of humanity’s experiences” gang!!!

Min-Rose-Hu-Veronika-Arturo: The “wants to move on from the past” gang!!!

Min-Arei-Teruko-Ace: The “trying to fix mistakes” gang!!!

Teruko-David-Eden-Arei-Levi-Xander: The “what makes a good person?” gang!!!

Teruko-David-Xander-Min-J-Whit-Ace-Rose-MonoTV-Probably everyone else: Fate!!!!

And there’s more than I’m probably forgetting because I can’t possibly check every conceivable connection between these guys. At least I hope I covered most of the major ones. Thanks for the ask, these dynamics are always fun to think about!

[oldrockformations]

You hit the nail on the head with all of this!!! Obviously folks are not obligated to be a fan of any character, but I think a whole lot of them need to take a step back and unpack why they dislike certain characters.

There are valid criticisms of every character in the show because they are all incredibly well written. All of them are flawed and all of them are human. And despite that, Mel seems to get a disproportionate amount of criticism. Is she really that awful,, or is she just a black woman? Some of yall need to think abt that.

Also you were spot on with the part about ableism. I really resonate with Viktor’s character as a physically disabled/chronically ill person, and the way some of the fandom treats him really puts a bad taste in my mouth. Like that is a grown ass man, calm down. I personally enjoy Jayvik, but I hesitate to engage with certain parts of the fandom bc of the way Viktor is discussed. Which really sucks because a huge thing I love about arcane is the representation!!!

Like obviously people are allowed to enjoy whatever ships they want,, but yall have got to remember to leave room for the actual communities being represented. Be excited about shit, but be conscious of the people who are being impacted by your behavior.

Wasn’t going to go on a big rant but you know what since that other post is gaining traction yeah I think I will. So big long rant under the cut. Lolll

I feel like. A lot of people might tell me ‘it’s not that deep’ but to me it is that deep.

I don’t have a problem with JayVik or it’s shippers like. At all. I just think some of them are à really good demonstration of like. Every bad thing when it comes to fandom ever LMAO.

Once again I am (supposed to be) writing a whole big long essay about this already so I will try and keep this kind of short and sweet and it might be a bit lacking but wtvr.

I think a lot of JayVik fans tend to be white queer people. Someone left a tag on my OG post that said basically ‘my take is I’m a faggot and I don’t have to care about a character if I don’t want to’ and no hate to that person cuz you’re right, but this is exactly the kind of stuff that made me make that first post.

I feel like a lot of white queer people have an issue with seeing outside their own identity? If that makes sense? This is seen time and time again with the way some of them behave when big movements happen online, some have a tendency to centre themselves and whatnot so i think it’s kind of the same thing.

It makes total sense that a queer person would prefer queer ships and would prefer JayVik over MelJay, that is not a crime. But I do think part of that is because they can’t relate/identify with Mel or see themselves in her like they can with Jayce or Viktor.

I hate to also make it about feminism but i think a lot of you guys are super like. Male centred, like just in your attraction which once again, not the issue not a crime. But i think it’s also why CaitVi, which is a canon queer ship, although popular is still not quite as popular as JayVik despite being canon. Women fetishizing gay men in fandom is not something new, which I think might play a small part in it- I’ve seen a lot of people especially back in s1 infantilizing Viktor and acting like he had no agency or independence and that he NEEDS Jayce to take care of him (that’s another thing. Ableism(looks at you with my eyes)) and they also do the same thing with Jayce where they act like he had 0 agency with any decisions he makes and that he’s like a big dumb baby who doesn’t know anything politics. Hey, guys. That’s a grown man.

My main issue isn’t that people prefer JayVik over MelJay it’s just that some shippers demonize Mel to an insane degree, blame her for getting in the way of their ship (this is also happening right now with Maddie- there’s a leak going around saying that she gets with Caitlyn and people are so upset that this character is getting some INSANE hate and I feel like that’s the same thing going on.)

they blame her for ‘stealing’ Jayce etc etc like. Idk. You don’t have to ship MelJay but I wish more people would appreciate Mel just as a character- imo she is super interesting and has a great story but she’s only ever seen and ‘the other woman’. I’ve seen people say she isn’t like, well characterized and that her story entirely revolves around Jayce which. Yeah she’s definitely heavily involved with him in s1 but she’s clearly got a lot more going on than just that and you would know that if you GAF 🗣️🗣️

for just being. Who she is. I think Mel deserves more attention just in the fandom and it’s just frustrating. People making memes about Jayce going insane over Viktor leaving but like. Mel also just got fucking kidnapped guys. His lover has just vanished without a trace why is nobody also talking about that !!!! Why can’t he care about both these people at the same time !!!!!!!

Anyway I’m not nearly well equipped enough to talk more in-depth about like. Any of this but I do think the demonization of Mel and refusal to see her relationship with Jayce as it is can often times be boiled down to racism like straight up. And also things like the fetishization of gay men in fandom and just things like that are sometimes what can lead to female characters- even the well written ones to be shelved and pushed aside in favour of their male counterparts.

Obligatory ‘not all JayVik fans’ obviously a lot of you are awesome, shouldn’t have to say this. If I’m not aiming for you, you shouldn’t be getting shot.

[dropoutconfessions]

Everyone’s allowed to feel how they feel about K. You do not HAVE to like K. K is an imagination people and does not matter compared to reality people.

The actual problems that I think all this discourse is stemming from is a problem in not just fandom here but in fandom as a whole. It’s a problem of trends: Why is our attention so frequently held by the masculine and white? Why, when we expand the world and look into the interiority of side characters, is our focus so targeted on white men? Why are women so overlooked, why are people of color so often ignored?

This is a wider issue. A trickling down of real world racism affecting our little play spaces. And the problem is that an issue which appears in larger trends, an issue that is a general pattern of behavior, is not easy to fix. We can’t fix this by harassing individual people. We can’t fix this by ignoring it. We definitely can’t fix it by pretending like its a problem here and only here rather than everywhere.

I wouldn’t be so bitter about K and dislike of K if I wasn’t overly sensitive to the idea of POC and femme characters getting the short end of the stick. I wouldn’t be so apprehensive about SamEvan, which is a frankly adorable and lovely ship, if I could trust people in general to act right about black women. I wouldn’t be so mad when people call Jammer and his friends rude while ignoring anything Evan did if I hadn’t seen it as the start of a malicious pattern.

If I hadn’t been in fandoms where every single woman got called a Hideous Bitch and every single person of color was Secretly Evil then I wouldn’t even be posting this. If I hadn’t seen people latch onto men with three lines and refuse to even consider thinking about women with entire arcs, I wouldn’t care about the lack of K posts. It would just be opinion. But it’s not just opinion when it happens over and over again to the same kinds of characters every time.

I don’t think it’s that bad in the mismag fandom. I don’t WANT it to get that bad here. But I don’t know how else to stop it, so I type up little confessions, and I hope someone reads them and thinks about this shit a little bit before they post.

I think people should calm down and stop insulting each other. I think people should take a break, if they need one, from fandom. I think people should leave each other alone and quit passive aggressively throwing ‘shade’ at opinions they don’t like because there is NOTHING wrong with individual opinion. There IS something wrong with the pattern its a part of but you can’t blame a person for a pattern you see in them or else you’ll end up snapping at a monster that isn’t even there yet.

Most of what I want is for people to think about how they think. Nobody has to stop liking Evan (ofc) but it is and should be concerning that even in this relatively progressive space, I keep seeing the same patterns creep their subtle and insidious way into the things I love.

I think we can all do better than this. I think we can do much better. I think we deserve better, all of us, than all of this.

-

[reginamillls]

Eddie hate is exhausting tbh, would love not to see it

[relaxxattack]

trying to go through the psycholonials tag why are you people saying the art is ugly and bad what the hell. did you actually read the whole thing or were you turned off by the Pixels on the first page

“it’s not as imaginative or interesting as anything in mspa” what the hell are you talking about.

do you understand how hard it is to get these colors to look this gorgeous together. do you even try to be immersed in zhens mental state (which is quite obviously what the art is evoking especially for characters like percy or the cops).

i would argue that not only is the juxtaposition of this style incredibly whimsical and fun as hell but actually some of it’s more technically advanced than art in homestuck

look at this guy! look at the level of rendering and shadow! how are you thinking this is ugly!

[lynnemoonsong]

You're asking them for logic and consistency when they just try to follow all the trends they can to milk bored players, they don't want players who question things, only the ones who pay.

I'm far from the only person who's noticed this and commented on it, or the issues within the company (such as no longer having a writing team) that have gotten SSE/SSO to this point. As for logic and consistency, that is something I like to have in a story-driven MMORPG, yeah. (I'm also neurodivergent, so. There's that.)

I don't play SSO like it's a horse collecting sim, personally (though there are players that do); for me, I treat it like a single-player game and I'm here for the main story + side quests & taking care of the few horses my character does own in-game (plus hanging out at various locations as a rp thing). There are issues I have with SSO, but they're more on a company and character design level + what issues I have with the fandom are more of a "stop acting like every little change is doomsday" and "I am well within my right to dislike certain characters and post about it on my blog; leave me alone and stop acting like I'm insulting/attacking y'all personally just bc I don't like y'all's fave hot edgy butch woman". (Who is one of the main villains, incidentally.)

So yeah, there are issues with SSO and SSE as a company, no argument there. Especially now that the main story is ground to a halt while behind-the-scenes stuff goes on until SSE comes up with a way to write the Soul Riders vs. the Dark Riders and Garnok battle (if you're caught up on all the main story quests up to the point of training daily with the Soul Riders, that is).

But to bring this back to Sabine (which the original post was about):

Her Starshine Legacy model and characterization was the pretty standard "rich, snobbish stable brat" trope in horse girl media (like, that's a feature of the genre), with the added bonus of her being a dark magical girl via her Dark Rider status (who also commits petty crimes and animal cruelty, but, y'know, who cares about that, right? /s), because SSL and SSO are essentially a mishmash of the Magical Girl and horse adventure genres.

This character model for Sabine (which was held until early 2022) did not earn nearly as much fan engagement, nor comment from SSE.

Her character remodel in 2022 drastically changed her look to the point she was not recognizable as the same character & SSE allowed the fanbase that exploded around her as a result to influence how she was written in-game so that subsection of the fanbase could more easily ship their OCs with her. It's been noted that SSE's inspiration for her redesign came from matadors and the Star Stable novels.

SSE also heavily pushed how hot Sabine's new character model was in official advertising and on social media, when Star Stable Online is, in its home country of Sweden, a game marketed toward young children and preteens. The company, noticeably, does not do this for any other main or recurring characters in the game, not even Ydris (who also has an adult/older teen fanbase that sexualizes him).

Goddess forbid people criticize Sabine's redesign and point out how it encourages negative stereotypes of WOC along with how she's oversexualized by both her fandom and SSE (and again, how that plays into overall perception IRL of women of color), because her stans will take those criticisms as a personal attack.

Like I said, the fangirls thirsting over Sabine post-update in fandom spaces is one thing (and I've curated my online experience to avoid it accordingly), but it's another thing entirely for SSE itself to push it so hard to the exclusion of even the other Dark Riders or the Soul Riders. Altogether, it's obnoxious, and I'm exhausted as someone who is not a Sabine / Dark Rider fan to begin with yet still has to see it on SSE's official social media pages.

The fact that it's an ongoing trend with SSE to ignore the story and characterizations in favor of chasing / cashing in on the hot shiny new pop culture thing on social media and in-game does not help.

But that's all the point. Old SSO was full of interesting references, little mysteries to discover, the story was nice compared to a lot of horses games, the characters and their designs were on the same page because it was actually something not only made for money. SSO now is a horse collecting game with a very subtle simp side and a tiny bit of story because they can't decently exploit only the rest. It was predictable when they started to change the game, they wanted something able to attract a large and more ready to pay for everything fandom. You're asking them for logic and consistency when they just try to follow all the trends they can to milk bored players, they don't want players who question things, only the ones who pay. There's nothing more behind, nothing to expect anymore with them.

[ganondoodle]

okay, bc i have seen this argument alot now (and it also seems to be the view point of aonuma himself..) is that "zelda cant do everything link does bc whats the point then"

and i take personal offense on that bc its a stupid argument (in. my. very. personal. opinion.- not judging people for liking it. its a ME thing)

whats the point? its that its her. its still a different character, different in story, background, personality, but i WANT to play zelda and she can do everything link does, why does she have to be so restricted and be bend over backwards to find some new way to make her 'useful' when link gets to do basically everything no questions asked (the only thing thats hers is like .. sealing power and sacrificial maiden, which i find a little underwhelming to say the least), if theres no point to it why are there always modders that model swap link with someone else, and in that case it has even less impact bc its an artificial model swap with no changes to the story (which can and should still be different when its the vanilla game with a different protagonist... its still a different character), clearly theres joy in just the model being a different one- and that isnt even to mention the story possibilities, since, again, its stil a different character

if we ever (never ... i know who we are talking about here) get to play as ganondorf i want to him to be just as versatile and active as link is, if we got a point and click adventure game for him instead bc 'whats the point' id be disappointed too- you can find any sort of excuse/explanation for zelda to be singled out but the fact remains it tracks with how female characters are often treated, and that hits a very sore spot for me

i guess i am unfortunately one of those annoying people that want to see female characters be treated exactly the same as male characters, possibly bc i am myself afab but identify as agender and have a deeply personal dislike for anything 'traditional' feminine bc i cannot and never will be able to truly live as myself in real life, it influences all of my work, my work is as just as much as my opinion on this, very personal

and in line with my point about modding, i see theres joy in just beign able to play as her even if its like this, i get that, i also get it for the creative aspect (though that mechanic worries me even more for the future bc it really seems to be the path now that -freedom = good, linear anything = bad-) it is a different idea and its not like i cant see that value- im not trying be "right" either, just bc i have that opinion doesnt mean i need everyone to agree, its a very personal thing, if you like it good for you! not for me though, and i think both of that is equally valid

i just personally wish she was allowed to be just like link, fight just like him but be different bc its still her and not him in the end- to be physically/playstyle like jsut like him, but you know ... as her, i dont think shed stop being zelda if she could wield a sword just like him

i dont really know how to get my point/feelings across, i dont want to step too much into personal stuff nor spam people with something that ultimately doesnt interest me alot, im just saddened by it really

(EDIT: bc i forgot to add this on here again; this isnt as much of a problem as it might sound like here, just the main topic i wanted to talk about; why im so uninterested in it is MAINLY bc i dont trust them to write anything interesting/care about lore anymore after totk, im always on the more pessimistic side that thinks its most likely worse than id hope and i know even the past games arent perfect or super interestingly written, but now its much more just a general distrust, together with everything like the price ... im just much less hopeful and cant get excited until i see more of it, like im waiting for the game to get out and reveal that its just as much of a mess and money i regret spending- kind of fear)

[hadesknockedupintheunderworld]

Still blows my mind the disparity between the Eng and the JP localization of Sonic Frontiers

So in the og English Tails expresses that he needs to part ways from Sonic so he can grow into a hero on his own, right? That he can't grow by being with him?

But like. The director of the game, who worked with Ian Flynn, worked on the JP localization and it's like. You're telling me that when they localized that scene for the Japanese audience

That it was about Tails learning that there are things only he can do? That instead of concluding that he needs to part ways from Sonic and become a hero, he just comes to realizes the ways in which he and Sonic fill each other's gaps? He learns that he already is on equal footing with Sonic. The two of them are just heroes who save people in different ways?

[rewritingcanon]

no girl tell us what you think about jegulily!! im so here for it (tone is weird but I mean that genuinely, I don't ship them so I'm not here to be weird)

dw bae ur tone is fine ! (i’ve been waiting for an ask like this 💀) i think jegulily is... yeah its…. like usually as long as its legal idgaf as long as shippers portray their characters right but regulus fans are literally incapable 😭🙏 WHY WOULD U PAIR A MUGGLEBORN AND A BLOOD SUPREMACIST IM SO DONE WITH DIS FANDOMMMM!! that actually goes for a lot of lily ships like bartylily as well (no clue where that came from either but it’s equally as stupid lmfao).

and jegulily just feels like shoving in lily because people feel bad for ditching her, or shoving in regulus because some people like jily and jegulus and want them (for some reason) to coincide even though it makes zeroooo sense for it to. like, idk if i said this with jegulus before (i yap sm on this account i forget what i say), but like it, jegulily can be done well if a realistic dynamic is taken into account, but the marauders fandom is allergic to nuance and so just chalks up everything regulus does and believes to his neglectful homelife. hes not all-bad, sure, i do feel bad for him, but im nowhere close to shipping him with a woman whos part of the people hes trying to eradicate, or with her man who purposefully went against all pureblood tradition (which is such a large part of james’ character— he is a pureblood that chooses to be seperate from that culture hellooooo plz wake uppppp).

marauders fandom has a chronic “i can fix him” mentality when it comes to wizard neo nazis, i have never understood it. but thats a topic for another day.

jegulily should be filled with envy, toxicity and prejudice stop nerfing it to be some fluffy feel-good polyamorous stable marriage where they raise harry together. yall are looking over the potential. this ship has blood and guts in it plz act like it or else idk what to say 😭 if it doesnt end with at least one of them getting murdered i dont want it.

[silkywishes]

i think maybe somewhere there is something in between "you're not allowed to voice negative opinions on any part of D20's story bc it's all improv!!" which feels like a blanket excuse to bulldoze over any and all opinions you dislike, and "disparaging the cast and crew bc these fictional characters didn't get treated like actual irl human beings"

[doctorodyssey]

i cannot believe there are people who don't care about/hate eddie

[icewindandboringhorror]

I have a big google doc thing where I keep track of media and stuff (putting everything in loosely ranked categories), which is mostly just for my own reference so I know what tv shows I've already seen before, etc. and I never really look back through it, typically just a quick "okay, watched two movie in the past 8 months, need to quickly slap them somewhere in the lists. okay. done. save document. exit". But today I was actually reading through some of the old notes and there are like... MULTIPLE places where my comment is basically "It would have been good if it were about elves" or "I wish there was a fantasy show made in this same style" or "It's well made, but I just keep thinking about how I would like it more if everyone was an elf or was in old 1700s costumes" or etc like...... lol.... Most biased media ranking system on earth blatantly made by someone with an extremely hyperspecific range of narrow interests. It'd be like if a food reviewer only had 5 foods they actually liked, so they'd just go to a pizza place and be like "eh, the pizza was okay, but I just think it would be better if it was cereal instead. :/ ...2 out of 10"

[thevalleyisjolly]

I think part of what troubles me about the opinion that Maglor and Maedhros were the “best” people to raise Elrond and Elros is that many (though not all) such interpretations often refer to fanon interpretations as if they were canon.  Which there’s nothing wrong with enjoying fanon!  But when popular fanon starts being treated as a definitive canon and subsequently starts being used as a lens for textual interpretation and engagement (and in some extreme cases, an excuse for bashing other characters), that’s when it gets a little eyebrow-raising. 

So in this post, I’m going to examine some of the more common fanon beliefs and headcanons around Maglor and Maedhros as parental figures/guardians to Elros and Elrond.  The point is not to debunk them and say that you cannot interpret the texts this way or enjoy them as a fan reading.  Indeed, if there was no textual or analytical basis for these headcanons altogether, they would not exist.  Neither is this meant to bash anyone.  Rather, I’d like to show that many of the assumptions we hold are nowhere near as solid or definitive as they sometimes seem to be, and that there is in fact room for a plurality of different headcanons and readings to coexist without elevating one over the other.

1. Maedhros and Maglor were both involved in Elros and Elrond’s upbringing.

As the wealth of Kidnap Fam content demonstrates, this is a very common headcanon.  However, let’s look at what the Silmarillion says.  Bolding is mine for emphasis.

For Maglor took pity upon Elros and Elrond, and he cherished them, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maglor’s heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath. (”Of the Voyage of Eärendil”)

Nowhere is Maedhros mentioned.  He is mentioned in the version of the story included in The Fall of Gondolin, where the passage instead reads:

For Maidros took pity on Elrond, and he cherished him, and love grew after between them, as little might be thought; but Maidros’ heart was sick and weary with the burden of the dreadful oath. (”The Conclusion of the Quenta Nolodrinwa”)

Christopher Tolkien’s commentary directly interjects after this to observe that the passage was rewritten to be the version in the published Silmarillion, which is an interesting distinction to make when the entire version of the story it comes from is very different from the one in the Silmarillion; it is also worth noting that apart from changing which Son of Fëanor it was, Tolkien kept this passage nearly verbatim in the Silmarillion.

Maedhros is also mentioned in the preceding chapter, in Tolkien’s sketch of the mythology, with the line:

Their [Eärendel and Elwing] son Elrond who is part mortal and part elven, a child, was saved however by Maidros. (”The Conclusion of the Sketch of the Mythology”)

So yes, there was once a version of the story in which Maedhros was the one who spared Elrond (Elros did not yet exist, at least not as Elrond’s brother, at this point in Tolkien’s thinking).  This version of the story differs quite significantly from the published version in the Silmarillion; as Christopher Tolkien comments, the Silmarils were of much less significance and had differing fates (Beren and Lúthien’s Silmaril was lost in the Sea after Elwing threw it in, Maglor threw another into a fiery pit, and the third was taken from Morgoth’s crown and launched into the outer darkness by Eärendil).  Also notably, Eärendil does not intercede on behalf of Middle-earth before the Valar.

Of course, being a Tolkien fan pretty much entails picking and choosing which bits of the Legendarium you like.  If you want to take Tolkien’s original thinking that it was Maedhros rather than Maglor who cherished Elrond and Elros, and mix that with the more common version of events in the Silmarillion, go wild.  You can say that the narrator is unreliable, that it makes logical sense for Maedhros to be involved, or that it’s simply more fun to imagine domestic shenanigans with the last two Sons of Fëanor.  But there’s a difference between blending versions of the story as your own personal headcanon, and asserting that headcanon as the one true fanon.

It is also interesting to observe that at no point are both brothers mentioned in relation to Elrond and Elros; it is either Maglor or Maedhros.  The version in The Fall of Gondolin has Maglor sitting by the Sea and singing in regret after the Third Kinslaying while Maidros saves Elrond; in the Silmarillion, it is only Maglor who takes pity on Elrond and Elros.

2. No one else cared about Elros and Elrond; only Maedhros and Maglor did.

Very explicitly in The Silmarillion, “Great was the sorrow of Eärendil and Elwing for the ruin of the havens of Sirion, and the captivity of their sons, and they feared that they would be slain...” (”Of the Voyage of Eärendil”).  But we also read:

Too late the ships of Círdan and Gil-galad the High King came hasting to the aid of the Elves of Sirion; and Elwing was gone, and her sons.  Then such few of that people as did not perish in the assault joined themselves to Gil-galad, and went with him to Balar; and they told that Elros and Elrond were taken captive, but Elwing with the Silmaril upon her breast had cast herself into the sea. (”Of the Voyage of Eärendil”)

Again, bolding is mine for emphasis.

What we see in the Silm version of the story is that 1) when Sirion was attacked, Círdan and Gil-galad raced to help but were too late, 2) a very large percentage of the population of Sirion died in the Kinslaying, and 3) those who survived reported that Elros and Elrond had been taken captive.  That’s it. 

True, there is no mention of any rescue attempts or negotiations, but there also isn’t mention of anything else because at this point, the narrative returns to Eärendil.  Which makes sense, because the voyage of Eärendil is the whole entire point of the chapter, and arguably the climax of the version of the narrative that’s in The Silmarillion.  It’s not “Of the Captivity of Elros and Elrond,” or “Of the Third Kinslaying,” the main focal point of the story is Eärendil sailing to Aman and pleading for all the people of Middle-earth.

There’s also another version of this story in The Fall of Gondolin, where we read:

...but the folk of Sirion perished or fled away, or departed of need to join the people of Maidros, who claimed now the lordship of all the Elves of the Hither Lands. (”The Conclusion of the Quenta Noldorwa”)

In this version, the survivors do not go to Gil-Galad, but either flee or join Maedhros who now claims lordship of all the Elves.  If you go by this story, then there really is very little possibility of a rescue, since 1) Maedhros is now the most powerful lord among the Elves and claims authority over all who are left, where would they even go if they got away, and 2) it would therefore be a betrayal to stand against or attack one’s lord.  It also opens up the possibility that Elrond (this is the version without Elros) had other survivors of Sirion around him while he was a captive, and was therefore not alone.

What all this means though is that we can headcanon whatever we like regarding what happens in Beleriand during this time, but we really don’t have enough information to definitively say what did or did not happen.  And what information we do have in The Silmarillion at least suggests that Círdan and Gil-galad cared about the people of Sirion and tried to help them, and also that the people of Sirion were not in great shape to be mounting any sort of attack on Maedhros and Maglor.

Also, just because someone who survives a horrifically traumatic mass murder which killed nearly everyone they knew does not immediately go out and fight for the well-being of other survivors, it does not therefore mean that they don’t care about them or that they care less than the perpetrators.

3. Maglor raised Elros and Elrond to adulthood.

This is another one of those instances where the absence of evidence does not make a positive.  We don’t actually know for certain how long Elros and Elrond were with Maglor.  In the early letter where Elros and Elrond are found in a cave, it is implied there that they were left there by the sons of Fëanor after they were taken captive, and later found by other, unspecified Elves.  In another version, in The Fall of Gondolin, it reads:

Yet not all would forsake the Outer Lands where they had long suffered and long dwelt; and some lingered many an Age in the West and North, and especially in the western isles.  And among these were Maglor as has been told; and with him Elrond Half-elven, who after went among mortal Men again... (”The Conclusion of the Quenta Nolodrinwa”)

This is also the version of the story where Elros does not exist and it is “from [Elrond] alone the blood of the Firstborn and the seed divine of Valinor have come among Mankind” (”The Conclusion of the Quenta Nolodrinwa”). 

Then there’s also this which Elrond says in Fellowship of the Ring:

Thereupon Elrond paused a while and sighed. ‘I remember well the splendour of their banners,’ he said. ‘It recalled to me the glory of the Elder Days and the hosts of Beleriand, so many great princes and captains were assembled. And yet not so many, nor so fair, as when Thangorodrim was broken, and the Elves deemed that evil was ended for ever, and it was not so.’ (”The Council of Elrond”)

What we see is that Elrond, at least, witnessed the end of the War of Wrath, including the breaking of Thangorodrim.  Then there is this passage from the Silmarillion:

Of the march of the host of the Valar to the north of Middle-earth little is said in any tale; for among them went none of those Elves who had dwelt and suffered in the Hither Lands, and who made the histories of those days that still are known; and tidings of these things they only learned long afterwards from their kinsfolk in Aman. (”Of the Voyage of Eärendil”)

In most versions of the story, the Elves who lived in Beleriand took part in the major conflicts of the War of Wrath.  Men do -“And such few as were left of the three houses of the Elf-friends, Fathers of Men, fought upon the part of the Valar...” (”Of the Voyage of Eärendil”)- but very clearly no Elves.  So Maedhros and Maglor did not participate in or witness the main battles of the War of Wrath, but according to Lord of the Rings (which I would argue holds the “most canonical” status over every other text in the Legendarium) Elrond was there to remember firsthand, if not take part in, major events in the War, suggesting that they were no longer together at that point (which does not preclude Elrond returning to them afterwards, though it would be a very tight timetable with the Fourth Kinslaying).

Returning to the original point, Elros and Elrond could very well have stayed with Maglor until they were grown, even up to and beyond the Choice.  They could equally have left Maglor and Maedhros at any point, or Maglor could have left them with their other kin.  Tolkien changed his mind a lot about the details of the end of the First Age!  There are a good number of different canons, to say nothing of opportunities for different headcanons. 

4. Elros and Elrond turned out to be great people which is all down to Maglor (and Maedhros)’s childrearing (and therefore they were the best possible people to raise them).

Hear the sound of that old familiar bell ringing again?  Absence of evidence one way does not mean that another way is automatically true!  We actually don’t have any information at all about how Maglor brought them up, only that emotionally, there was some element of mutual love in the relationship.  We don’t know for certain how long Elros and Elrond were with Maglor (a few months? a few years? all the way to adulthood?) and we don’t know how or what sort of things Maglor taught them or to what degree they absorbed those lessons.

Yes, Elros and Elrond became great people.  But there is simply too great a gap of information to correlate (either positively or negatively) all their future deeds and character to Maglor (and/or Maedhros)’s upbringing.  Not to mention, people are not only the products of the people who raised them.  So many people influence us on a daily basis, from friends to coworkers to enemies.  While Maglor (and Maedhros) doubtless did have an influence on how E&E grew up and who they became, it seems a little reductive to credit them as the defining factor in Elros and Elrond’s morality or greatness, when both of them (E&E) lived very long lives for their respective fates and met many people and experienced many things.

Narrative Analysis: What’s this about themes?

Textual analysis aside, there’s one other factor which I think is missing in a lot of these discussions, which is genre.  The Legendarium is full of tragedy.  Good people make bad decisions, or suffer (often unjustly) the consequences of another person’s decisions.  People are placed in terrible situations where there is no “good” or “right” decision, where anything they choose has tragic consequences.  Sometimes people make decisions believing that it is justified or for good, only to discover that it was very much the opposite.  Sometimes people know that what they are choosing will hurt them or others, but for one or many reasons, they do it anyways.

The point being that many of the characters Tolkien wrote are purposefully nuanced and tragic.  Yes, there’s a Dark Lord and some very terrifying spiders who are unequivocally evil, but otherwise, nearly every character is some shade of grey.  Characters make decisions with both positive and negative consequences; they exist simultaneously as figures of both heroism and antagonism.  In short, they’re complex!  That’s why they’re so compelling and enjoyable!

So why set up a dichotomy of “So and so is better than so and so”?  Rather than pitting the sons of Fëanor as “the best” in comparison to other characters, why not embrace the complexity of the narrative? 

In order to save the entire world, Eärendil and Elwing had to leave their young children forever.  They could have decided to go back and try to rescue their children, and in doing so they would have also doomed the entire world.  Whatever they chose, someone would suffer for it.  It’s a question that we see explored a lot in fiction but which most of us will never have to confront ourselves: if you were in a position where you had to choose between your loved ones and the fate of the world, which would you choose?

Maglor, a character who has acted almost exclusively as a follower throughout most of the narrative, for once realized the consequences of his actions and, crucially, took active responsibility by caring for and cherishing the children he kidnapped.  It does not absolve him of responsibility for the Kinslayings because children are not tools to redeem the adult figures in their lives, and in any case, it is a fruitless pursuit to attempt to moralize fictional characters existing in a very particular setting and narrative.  However, it is a significant moment in his character arc, especially as we afterwards see him begin to openly contradict and disagree with Maedhros, multiple times within the same chapter after being a relatively silent follower throughout the narrative.  Which makes it all the more tragic later when he slays the guards with Maedhros and steals the Silmarils because we know now that he did not want to, that he might have chosen differently, but ultimately he did not.

Maedhros knew that the kinslayings were wrong and repented of them, and did not attack Sirion for many years.  However, he still did it in the end.  *mumbles in V for Vendetta “I have not come for what you hoped to do, I have come for what you did do”* He did not kill Elrond and Elros, and in some early versions of the story, was indeed the one to save them rather than Maglor.  He also continued to kill in the name of the Oath.  Rather than isolating any one of these things as proof of goodness or badness, all of them work together as part of his tragic figure - a prince, once great, with good intentions, who has fallen to such a point in his life that all he can see around him anymore is death and despair.

(On a side note, Maedhros-Hamlet AU when)

Elros and Elrond were young children who survived a horrifically traumatic event.  They were able to develop some sort of loving relationship with Maglor (or Maedhros), and as adults, they took pride in Eärendil and Elwing as their parents.  Rather than pitting Maglor against Eärendil and Elwing, is it not more important that amidst the apocalyptic horrors of late First Age Beleriand, Elros and Elrond had adult figures in their lives who loved them and cherished them, both before and after the Kinslaying?  Love is not the only important thing in the world, of course, and it is not meant to justify any of the actions taken by the aforementioned adults.  But.  Amidst the tragedy of the broken world they lived in, they were loved. 

Summary: Headcanons are great and can co-exist with each other

Not to belabour the point, but there is really so much we do not know about the end of the First Age.  Tolkien changed and developed his thoughts on his world throughout his life, and even with what he did set down in writing, there are plenty of gaps where we can only guess.  That’s part of what makes the Legendarium so fun to engage with as readers!

With all that in mind, there’s nothing wrong with having a preferred version of the story or a favourite set of headcanons, so long as we acknowledge that they are not the only way to engage with the text.  Furthermore, fiction and fan engagement is not meant to be about the moral high ground.  Especially with the complex characters and world that Tolkien created, you don’t need to put down other characters or narratives in order to justify your preferred reading.  It’s First Age Beleriand!  To modify a parlance from Reddit, Everyone Sucks At Least a Little Bit Here.  Characters can have good intentions with tragic consequences, make bad decisions but have some good come out of it nonetheless, or do things which have both positive and negative impacts.

Eärendil and Elwing do not need to be horrible or unfit parents in order for Maglor and/or Maedhros to genuinely pity and cherish Elros and Elrond.  Those are separate relationships with no correlation.  And none of them need to be perfect parental figures in order for Elros and Elrond to have real loving relationships with all of them.  It’s not a competition for who can “best” raise Elros and Elrond or who loves them “the most.”  You can love Maglor and Maedhros as good parents!  There’s just no need to go putting anyone else down, or to treat it as the one definitive interpretation of the characters and the story.

[ssaalexblake]

i need to rewatch all of disco for many reasons but mostly because i miss the era of the show where the character dynamics were a group of hopeful, good people trying their hardest to do the right thing in hard circumstances to help people, and their friend the serial killer emperor.

[nerdy-hyperfixations]

Breaking news: local doctor arrested for sunscreen incident and is facing life in prison. More at 5

Okay, but seriously, tho. I hadn't gone to the Luau somehow until very recently, and when I heard people talk about Harvey's line there, I got really concerned. Like one person claimed, he asks to rub sunscreen on Maru's back, and Maru gets really uncomfortable. I was genuinely concerned because I personally rather there be no implications that Harvey, a doctor who owns the hospital he runs, would have a crush on Maru, his employee. Even if some people can accept that age gap they must obviously have, it's just actually immoral...

But bro. I read the dialog that everyone is so creeped out by. He doesn't say that. He legit says, "I wonder if Maru could use some sunscreen on her shoulders," with a completely neutral face.

It's weird at best that he's pondering out loud to you instead of asking her, but the game doesn't really let people talk to each other outside of cut scenes. Sure sometimes their dialog can be related, but the game can't predict who you'll talk to first. If he were to ask her in his dialog but you talk to Maru first it'd be strange to watch her answer a question he hasn't asked yet.

Some people point out that it's weird he specifically singled out her, and *that's* why it obviously points to something more creepy, but... considering she was standing right next to him. And is his only friend if you don't count yourself. (According to the wiki. Some people headcanon he has more friends lol) It's really not all that strange if he were just concerned about her getting a sunburn and thus thinking of her.

The other evidence I've seen is that Harvey asks Maru to dance with him at the flower dance, so he obviously has a crush on her. But like. Again. She is his only friend. If you talk to him, he talks about being nervous to ask someone to dance. I think some people read "someone" as meaning he has someone in mind, that being Maru, but I've always kinda assumed it meant he literally is just nervous to ask anyone. Which, of course he'd end up asking the one person he knows. It's ultimately understood that the person they dance with doesn't have to be a romantic interest but can be, so I don't know why this is used as Harvey *obviously* having a crush on Maru.

The shoulders specifically being mentioned is pretty strange, however, directly quoting an article here, that's right I'm pulling out the big guns, "people are most likely to under-apply protection to their chest and shoulders." (Source linked at the end) Someone has pointed out that her shoulders are covered, but only by what looks like a loose t-shirt, which you can get sunburns through. It is entirely possible that *as a doctor* Harvey might know people often miss their shoulders when putting on sunscreen, and is genuinely concerned she might end up a little sunburnt.

Also, Harvey is an easily flustered man: he blushes, a lot, pretty much every time he flirts. And maybe it's just cuz the characters aren't able to blush around anyone but the farmer, I wouldn't know, but he has a *completely* neutral face. Not even smiling.

Maybe this is just me in denial because I like Harvey too much that I don't want to believe it, but idk. I'm willing to say it's not out of line, and that he's not interested in Maru because that would be... insanely inappropriate of him as her employer.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.huffpost.com/entry/surprising-place-getting-sun-damage_n_595157ebe4b02734df2c8176/amp

[yannfredericks]

being online rn is such a fucking nightmare oh my god!!!