#in fact he and jason are pretty similar in that they do not understand bruces emotional responses to things

[trekkele]

I knew it existed

the fact that alfred was the one to put up jason's memorial is so important to me

[timmydraker]

Thinking about how we see such an amazing bond between Damian and Dick, with the older being a mentor and big brother and in a lot of ways a parent to Damian. It’s beautiful to see Damian have someone who lets him be a kid while still understanding that he’s god the mind of a soldier and that those things can conflict and clash badly.

And just as Damian has Dick, I want/believe that Tim had Jason.

Even though Tim got to see Dick as Robin, that was only after the acrobat had been doing it for a while. But with Jason, Tim got to see him from start to, unfortunately, end. He got to see the young joyful boy who brought a different kind of light and excitement to Robin, as well as a deeper understanding of how the streets of Gotham worked in those eyes only a few years older than him.

Jason dying impacted everyone and by no means was Tim affected the most, but he was still affected pretty heavily. His whole reason to exist while his parents were away was to watch the Robin sore and he looked up to Jason more so than Batman because they were so close in age.

Tim becomes Robin, Jason becomes Red Hood and both of them have to deal with gigantic emotional mess than comes with Jason trying to kill him and then changing his mind only after the younger survived anyway.

Everyone has traits similar to Bruce and Jason is the best at mimicking the man’s emotional awkwardness but he does his damn best and I genuinely think that Tim pushes that a lot.

With Damian it’s different because Jason saw first hand how talented the boy is, even if it came at the cost of a childhood, so he doesn’t have to worry as much. In some ways the boy even trained Jason.

But Tim? He’s book smart as hell, but Jason can’t get past the fact that he’s so similar to how him and Dick once were. He’s just a normal kid who wasn’t raised with a sword or gun in his hand. It was half the reason he had been so angry at Bruce, because it wasn’t that someone took his place it’s that even though he had a literal child die with that suit on he still let another take his place.

Jason worries over him, is the one most likely to banter with him and listen to him talk about his technical nonsense even if he doesn’t understand a damn thing. He doesn’t belittle him, just teases and jokes when others are around, but when they’re alone it’s quiet conversations our philosophy and stress and the endless cycle of villains and heroes fighting.

It’s safe for both of them, as Jason gets to do what he needs to to heal himself through his younger brother and Tim gets a support that isn’t demeaning and overprotective.

It’s a difficult balance and they do have arguments, but they are quicker to sort it out with each other than with anyone else in their family or even their lives.

Bruce totally isn’t jealous of either of them.

[kitkats-and-kittens]

One of my favourite things to think about is the rest of the batfam all having their own ‘Brucie Wayne’ personas. So here’s me listing how I imagine the main family members would front to the public.

Dick

I think would be very similar to Bruce with the same air-headed personality. As far as the internets concerned he can’t spell orange and pretends not to know any of the 50 states let alone which one he lives in. He also uses the fact that he never officially finished college to his advantage. As a kid he was more eccentric and people just knew him as that little kid whose constantly high of sugar and lollipops. Not much changes when becomes an adult.

Of course like father like son and he is also extremely charismatic. His persona is a little more goofy than Bruce’s and he’s known as the Wayne’s resident gymnast, at least in the air. He’s made a habit of acting as though any and all fine motor skills come to an absolute stop the moment he isn’t doing some complex flip, or cartwheel. There are serval videos on YouTube of him tripping over air, spilling drinks over his shirt, and stumbling into several guests, only half of these were faked. He also has a reputation of being an absolutely insane drunk. He went viral on twitter for doing a triple backflip in the middle of a gala which resulted in a shattered punch bowl, several traumatised guests and a fake news report claiming he’d died which sent the city into a riot for the next 24 hours all because he was a little bit tipsy.

Jason

Jason was pretty young when he ‘died’. Before hand he was the happy go lucky kid. With stars in his eyes and more energy than a Chihuahua hiked up on red bull and pure, liquified blue raspberry. Of course you had the occasional leech who saw in some news report that he used to be a street kid which resulted in several rumours about his ‘horrid violent nature’ but all it took was actually meeting him for most to completely disregard this.

After his death he doesn’t hang around the rest of the family much. Especially not in public and out of masks. However there is the occasional day (once every millennia or so) where he’ll stroll up to whatever part or gala or social event the Wayne’s are hosting that day, with his foolproof, impenetrable disguise Tayson Jodd absolutely no relation to Brucies dead kid, nor the elusive red hood who has a hate account dedicated to his very existence.

His whole thing tends to be a regular upstanding member of society. He acts completely normal. This wasn’t always the case. He used to change it every time he went to the parties, either acting as some depressed, lonely rich guy or an alcoholic and on one particularly memorable occasion a closeted drag Queen. However one time he showed up without a persona pre made and ready to go and just decided to wing it.

However Tim Drakes insane paranoia meant he stayed up a good 3 weeks after that night just to make sure Jason wasn’t trying anything and when Red hood found out he found it absolutely hilarious and resolved to be as respectable as possible while also generating maximum suspicion for all other members of his family.

Stephanie Brown

Although not officially adopted by the Wayne’s most people have gotten used to seeing her just roll up with the Wayne’s and it didn’t take long for social media to realise that Brucie had emotionally adopted her, if not legally. At first Steph didn’t really understand the need for a persona. She was already fine with keeping her actual personality and not turning it off for the cameras.

It took seeing Jason, who was having an absolute blast with his public persona to open her mind to the range of possibilities and she spent a full 3 months crafting a personality from scratch (putting that psychology degree to good use).

She cycled through a couple. Rich party girl, serious career woman, ditzy idiot. But eventually she landed on scheming socialite. She saw some tabloids slandering her for being Tim’s ex and although the rest of the family was not happy she took it and ran with it. Landing herself in the circles of the most gossip loving, shit talking, hot woman she could find.

She makes sure she exudes villainy at all times and has been seen eyeing Timothy Drake from across the room, stroking a cat (though no one knew where she got it from) and sipping a martini. Although she doesn’t particularly like how cruel some of her companions are she finds no greater joy than passively aggressively remarking about how Donna is wearing the same heels she was 3 years ago and oh my is she running low on funds? She was born to instigate and takes every opportunity to do so.

Tim Drake

If Tim is known for anything then it’s his ability to appear as though everything has gone to his exact calculations on the outside while internally screaming and just completely winging whatever half brained plan comes to mind. But one forgets, he isn’t just a Wayne but a Drake. Son of Janet Drake at that.

As a kid he was very much a mamas boy and would replicate her cold calculating air to the best abilities of a 10 year old boy. As he grew up however he realised that he much preferred letting people underestimate him. So in the end he settled on the stoner.

It was pretty unexpected for most of his family. Bar Dick who embraced it with all the reverence of a chaotic older sibling. Of course Tim Drake being as meticulous as he is meant when he made this persona built it from the ground up. He gave himself a favourite drug, a fake dealer, and he methodically updates his account balance every week, taking out just enough that it looks like he’s been buying.

Not only does this have the added benefit of explaining the random times he’s passed out in the middle of a party or those random compilations of him on YouTube simply staring into the abyss for hours on end, but it also means he had to try way less than his siblings when it comes to presentation. If Dick or Bruce show up with even so much as a slightly ruffled collar the tabloids will go on for weeks about the mystery guy or girl they definitely slept with. But when Tim does it, they just laugh. He gets a pat on the head and a glass of water shoved into his hands and no one thinks anything more.

And if he can also use it as an excuse for a few extra minuets of sleep then whose going to stop him?

Cassandra Cain

Cass didn’t need to do much of anything. When she first arrived in Gotham she was small, quite and not very well versed in social customs so it was practically written in the stars that she’d become an instant fan favourite. However unlike most of her siblings most of her fans aren’t focused on her what she’s been doing, or with who, but rather on trying to spot her.

She’s some aloof, mysterious figure to them and she’s also become a bit of a where’s Waldo meme. News reporters will post overview shots of the huge hall the guest are occupying, the grounds of the manor, the well kept lawns, the roofs, and the internet will go crazy trying to find her. At first it was difficult but only because she kept to herself, you’d find her in a corner of the room, or hiding behind one of the taller guests but ever since she realised what was going on she’s been making a conscious effort to make it as difficult as possible.

Some of her hiding spots include: under the table, the roof, inside the fountain, disguised as Dick Grayson, a statue, on the chandelier, and somehow as one of the reporters, camera and all. It’s become a bit of a game to see who can find her first and she remains Gothams favourite Wayne.

Duke Thomas

Duke isn’t really sure what to make of this whole public persona thing. He finds hiding such a big part of himself a little strange, and doesn’t much enjoy the idea of putting on a mask for others. So he does what he does best and puts the rest of the Wayne’s to shame with his sound logic.

He’s just himself. And somehow manages to cause the biggest impact. The people aren’t used to rich people not being overly eccentric. This is Gotham after all! And Duke Thomas’ actual personality is not exactly something they were expecting.

This is the same man who raised an army of teenage armies in the absence of his hero. To call him impulsive would be an understatement. Also he very much enjoys ‘eating the rich’ so to speak. He used his powers to convince one particularly nasty man that he needed full psychiatric care by randomly disappearing whenever he was in their line of sight.

He hangs out with Dick a lot, but only so when the worst of the Gotham socialites approach he can make them feel as uncomfortable as possible by questioning their thoughts and feelings on the working class, living conditions and all the other stuff they usually couldn’t care less about which leaves them scrambling for an answer that won’t completely ruin their reputations. Although he’s been branded ‘the responsible one’ that’s only because he presents himself as such to reporters. Most of the people attending the galas live in fear of him ever approaching them.

Damian Wyane

Being the youngest meant that people already had expectations by the time Damian showed up. Although most had no idea where the kid came from that didn’t stop them from making assumptions, and the rumours circulating from before he was officially introduced range from a mini Bruce Wayne to raging alcoholic. And yes, these were published when reporters knew damn well he was 10 years old maximum.

When the public do finally see him for the first time it doesn’t take them long to craft a persona for him. Damian of course sees this whole thing as beneath him, he doesn’t understand why he would need to hide himself, he didn’t train with the league for years to just not show of his skills. Dick tries to get him to think of it like training, as though he were on an undercover mission. This works a little too well and now he takes it so incredibly seriously it’s hard for the others not to laugh.

He arrived, squeezed in between Brucie Wayne who was blowing kisses to the camera, Dick Grayson doing a handstand, Tim Drake who looked absolutely blitzed and Stephanie Brown who was manically rubbing her hands together. Cass nowhere to be found and Duke giving his classic sunny smile to the camera.

So of course people realise this kid must be the adult. There’s jokes about how Damian must be the one doing the Wayne’s taxes, about how he probably drives Bruce to work, and other such things. Which is only further cemented by the kid himself. But he also doesn’t talk much (Dick said if he had nothing nice to say he shouldn’t say anything), and a few (illegally taken) photos show him drawing, as well as his small army of pets and so people are torn between this kid who is clearly far too mature for his age and this cute baby of a child who likes fluffy animals and crayons.

Damian is disgusted by both sides, but there isn’t much he can do about it and resolves instead to fuck with everyone by leaning into it and alternating on a seemingly random basis between clueless child and grown adult in a 10 year olds body. It mostly ends up terrifying the rest of his family because occasionally Damian (who several of them watched kill a man) will come up smiling and demand to be placed on their shoulders, and other times the same kid (who found a cow a decided immediately he was a vegetarian) will be found sipping straight vodka and going on about the good old days with people 8x his age as though he were some drunken world war 2 veteran.

[televisionlassie]

The reason I find Jason to be boring is because people are so scared to hold him accountable. You can’t claim to like anti-hero’s or claim that Jason is an anti-hero if you’re going to excuse everything that makes him an ANTI-hero.

There is no doubt in my mind that I would like him a whole lot more if people accepted him as a character that does bad things. I understand he has trauma and his own reasons but trauma is only an explanation, not an excuse. While I like consuming content of the batfamily being a family, when it’s not based in pretty much an entirely different universe it doesn’t make any sense.

Pretty much all of the batfamily (except Bruce because he’s can actually be pretty awful to Jason) has reasons to hate or be mad at Jason.

Jason went out in a Nightwing outfit and killed people to try and ruin Dick’s image, and all the shit he’s done to Dicks other siblings. You really think Dick would just be cool with the fact that Jason beat one of his little brothers and shot another one?

Cass has a moral code probably stricter than Batman, she would HATE Jason for killing. And again same thing with the siblings.

Tim I just don’t understand why he would ever forgive Jason. Jason beat the absolute shit out of him, plus you gotta admit that guy is too much of a cocky bitch to ever just forgive and forget

Unfortunately I can’t say much about Steph as I can’t think of a single time where they actually interacted in canon. But I don’t think she would be too fond of the guy who beat up her best friend and shot Damian.

Duke I think has had one personal interaction with Jason and while it wasn’t too friendly I don’t think he would hold that big of a grudge.

Damian I think would be more understanding but it’s hard to forget how he was shot by Jason and had to have his SPINE replaced because of Jason.

I’m not trying to hate on Jason, he honestly makes me sad because he is filled with wasted potential. It’s not even that they never make him do bad things, it’s that there’s never any lasting consequences.

Many times when I see people who hate on Jason they bring in the death penalty argument, which as much as I hate and believe is stupid, still has some tiny bit of validity. The reason it sucks is because the world of DC comics is not even remotely similar to our real life. Criminals in real life don’t have plant powers or convoluted plans to distribute their weird ass poisonous gas. If they did, they wouldn’t even spend a night in jail because they would be shot on the spot. If Jason did just kill these types of criminals, then he would not be considered an anti-hero, just a hero. But that’s the thing, Jason doesn’t just kill the Joker, or the Riddler or any of the Rogues, he kills the type of criminals we would see in our real lives. THAT is where the validity lies in that argument, it’s not just that Jason is killing supervillains but that he is killing the type of people that we are fighting against the death penalty for. Obviously this argument means nothing to you if you are pro-death penalty but I just wanted to explain.

Jason would be so interesting if he was treated like the character he is supposed to be. A young traumatized person who does bad things for the right reasons but still has to face the consequences.

And if people really want to give him a character arc where he eventually stops killing, it shouldn’t just be he gets tried of killing or tired of arguing with Bruce, but that he sees how his way of crime-fighting can do more harm than good.

It’s just so frustrating to see how people just act accept anti-heros for what they are. It like people are so scared of making or admitting a character to be immoral, that they just erase the consequences of their bad actions to make it excusable.

Anyways, thank you for coming to my rant, Jason Todd fans this wasn’t me hating on your babygirl, I’m trying to help you.

[silent-wolf]

batfamily as disney princesses

wait so ive been thinking more about this post in particular on what the assigned disney princess is for each batfamily member and i need to u all to understand my thoughts rn 1. dick as ariel from the little mermaid:

can we agree on the fact that dick is the most likely to get eloped without giving a single hint? also the most likely to break out into a spontaneous song number. he's such a bubbly person and would be friends with anyone, INCLUDING A CRAB. 2. jason as tiana from princess and the frog: okay hear me out- we're so used to him being perceived as belle, but honestly they're not THAT similar personality wise. tiana is passionate, persistent and opinionated. if that doesn't scream jason i don't know what does. both of them would never change themselves for other people and i think thats so lovely. 3. tim as belle from beauty and the beast: im still on my tim as belle bullshit !! both of them are idealistic, loyal and slightly judgemental. honestly the way both of them managed to change people around them( i.e- bruce and the beast) to become better people, while not giving two fucks is pretty commendable LMFAO.

4. damian as snow white from snow white and the seven dwarfs:

DO YOU SEE MY VISION. imagine littol damian frolicking in a field as he sings to a bunch of deers and bluebirds. in my mind, he's just a gremlin with no thoughts but little critters running through his brain. he's so gentle with his pets and is extremely environmentally conscious.

5. cass as mulan from mulan:

there is literally no other option more fit for her. groomed from a young age to be something they're not, but then becoming badass warriors in their own right? like yesss girl bosses !! and both of them having issues with finding their own self that's not a reflection of what other's want and perceive them to be?? so compelling~

6. stephanie as rapunzel from tangled.

thats it. that's all you need. okay i'm joking but stephanie is so painfully rapunzel it HURTS. both escaping from a toxic environment to find enjoyment for life once again, and doing good for the world. i love them both to death. they're also my gf's

okay as for the rest i dont have any concrete reasoning but the vibes just m a t c h

6. duke as elsa from frozen- idk something about them is just so uncanny. i'd imagine trying to live upto the expectations of ur new family and the rest of the population would take a toll on you, which is basically the premise of frozen. and both of them are rlly pretty...

7. barbara as jasmine from aladdin- literally best girls icl. there is no logic behind this, but i think little barbara dreamed of being as cool as jasmine one day. BONUS: bruce wayne as cinderella.

anyways this is all just for fun and feel free to comment ur suggestions !!

[lilacsandlillies]

Stephanie Brown Rambling Incoming

Stephanie’s relationship with Gotham and the rest of the bats, especially Jason and Dick, is such an overlooked thing because.

Stephanie, Jason, and Dick are all more or less the same character in three different fonts. All three have very similar character arcs, more similar than the other robins, and similar personalities with the main differences coming from either metatextual reasons like the time their being written and specific writers preferences for them, and the situation that their in.

People talk about Jason and Stephanie’s similarities all the time but it goes a lot deeper than just the surface level of them both having died and the similar stories of their parents. Stephanie is one of the only Bats that are relatively cool with murder. She’s attempted it before. And unlike other characters who have internalized the whole “we don’t kill thing” Steph seems to only follow that rule in order to make Cass, Bruce, and Tim happy.

Stephanie, much like Jason, understands the position of the victim in a way that many of the other Bats seem unable to. In fact, some of them, like Bruce and Cass, are much more likely to identify with the Criminal than the victim.

This gives Steph a unique perspective on crime and Gotham that she only really shares with Jason.

On the other hand, Steph goes through a pretty similar character arc as Dick, starting off as a relatively cynical and angry child and growing into a more optimistic person through vigilantism. It’s important to note that Steph and Dick, more than any of the other robins or even bats as a whole, were destined to be vigilantes. They chose to be vigilantes without outside encouragement from Batman or prior training. I hate to reference the Robins comic but in that comic when their put into the “idealistic” lives that Bruce thinks they would’ve had without him, steph and Dick are the only ones still in “the life.” Damian, Tim, and Jason have nothing to do with vigilantism in Bruce’s ideal reality, but even here Bruce can’t even delude himself into thinking there’s any world where Steph and Dick atenta fighting for justice.

The main difference between Dick and Steph has less to do with them as people and more to do with where they are as characters, with Stephanie being much younger with much less history, and the other characters reactions to them. A big reason Dick is where he is as a person is because of Bruce and the Titans belief and trust in him. That’s not something Steph has ever had. Bruce barley tolerates her presence during her Robin run, and the Titans actively reject her while she’s Robin.

This leads to a bigger trend with Steph that shows a major difference in the way the Steph is treated out of universe in comparison to the other robins and batgirls.

In DC comics, characters can usually be sorted into two types of characters. There are the more active characters that exist in both their own mythos, and in larger comic crossover teams and events. Nightwing is allowed to exist in both the Batman mythos and in Titans comics. Black Canary is allowed to exist in Green arrow comics, birds of prey comics, and Justice league comics. These characters are also allowed regular cameos in comics that have nothing to do with them.

On the other hand, more self contained characters like Leslie Tompkins or Jimmy Olsen are only allowed to exist within the context of the mythos they where created for. You’d be hard pressed to find Dr. Tompkins in something unrelated to Batman. These characters are allowed to be characters, but only in the context of the environment.

Most of the Robins are allowed and expected to be one of the active characters. Their leaders and basically and extension of Batman. DC loves Batman, so they wants characters that are basically extensions of him anywhere they can.

That’s why it’s so strange that Stephanie is treated more like a self contained characters only allowed to exist in Batman and related comics than most other Batman characters.

She’s never led a team, unlike the other Robins. She’s never had a consistent non-bat non-gothamite friend. She’s barley even allowed cameos.

Even Duke, who’s a much newer character, has already been allowed to exist on a team and interact with non-bat characters like Black Lightning and Katana.

Every single one of Stephanie���s important relationships, except her relationship with her mother, is with a bat. What makes this extra sad is that with the exception of Cass, Tim, and Damian, she’s not very important to them.

Dick and Steph should theoretically have much more relationship than they do. Dick and Damian are very important people to each other because of their time together as Batman and Robin. Yet Stephanie isn’t awarded the same type of relationship with Dick despite the fact that she was batgirl while he was Batman.

They’ve worked together before, and the two of them are both very important in Damian’s development. But these things are not reflected in their relationship with each other.

Stephanie tends to be discarded and forgotten both as a batgirl and as a Robin, which is tragic considering what a compelling and unique character she is.

Robins have been defined by their relationship with Batman and how he perceives them for a long time.

Dick is famously the perfect version of Bruce, the man Bruce wishes he could be. He’s hope and light and good. Jason is the exact opposite, the worst possible outcome in Bruce’s eyes. He’s the antithesis of Bruce’s ideals and he’s good at it. Tim is Bruce cynicism and practically. Damian is still growing, but in my mind he’s Bruce’s skill and empathy. Duke is an embodiment of the people, of Gotham itself.

I think that Stephanie is a kind of mix between Duke and Jason. She’s an embodiment of the people, yes, but more specifically the people Batman has failed. The kids of criminals, the people who were forced into a life of crime.

She’s a revelation of Batman’s hypocrisy and failures. Had Batman caught her dad earlier, had the justice system not failed her, her life would’ve been much better. She wouldn’t have been a vigilante.

She’s an embodiment of vigilante justice in a way that none of the other Bats really are. She didn’t come into this trained by the best and with super advanced tech. She didn’t have Batman to save her from every mistake. Stephanie is what happens when the average citizen gets a little fed up and decides to take matters into their own hands.

That’s part of why Bruce resents her so much. Bruce inherently comes from a privileged place that makes him unable to understand Stephanie and the people she represents. He doesn’t understand how a parent could be such a danger to their kid that the kid would rather the parent dead. He doesn’t understand why a girl with living parents and a house could want to become a vigilante. He has a fundamental disconnect from Steph and her world.

And just to preface this, I’m talking specifically about modern Batman and how Batman is portrayed during Stephanie’s Robin run. There are many versions of Batman whom most of this doesn’t apply to.

I really don’t know where this was going, I just had a lot of thoughts.

[yandereforme]

Yan! Batfam x Single Mother! Martha Lookalike! Reader

Part 4:Seeing a ghost, and adding kittens into the mix

Alfred was well aware of the fact that Master Damian and Master Jason are getting along solely due to a person they care for. However, he doesn’t fully understand the situation until he meets you.

Damian only told Alfred little bits about anything to do with you, and even then he didn’t talk about you so much as gush over you, in his own way. Alfred knew the basics that you were single mom who fed stray cats, which is how you met Damien, and you knew Jason through a meeting at your job. He had even been invited to come inside and meet you today, and was very interested to know someone who would most likely become part of the family.

He had gotten out of the car, a modest one that was new enough to stand out, but not new enough to look like a rich person owned it, straightening his appearance slightly, and opening the door for Master Damian when he saw you beaming at them from your doorway.

You looked so similar to a 20 year old Martha Wayne that he almost believes he is seeing her again, that she is welcoming him into the afterlife. Alfred doesn’t realize he is leaning against the car and almost as white as a sheet until you approach him with concern. He can notice tiny differences between you and Miss Martha, but it’s still uncanny how similar you are and when you look at him with that concerned look, it is like he’s looking at her again(depending on what you read, there are a lot of different stories about Alfred went to work for the Wayne’s. I’m going with the idea that his father served the family back when they were the Kanes and not the Waynes, and put Alfred in charge after he died and he bonded pretty deeply with Martha who was in her early 20s.)

You on the other hand are pretty sure that your friend(?) (you weren’t exactly sure what to call Damian, as he felt like he was a mixture of another child and a protective sibling at times.)’s grandfather was having a heart attack or some kind of medical emergency. Damian seemed more confused than you were, so you quickly came over and asked him if he was all right.

You sounded different enough from Martha that he could feel his chest loosening. You may have looked almost exactly like her, but you were not her.(you weren’t his friend reincarnated.)He brushed himself off and apologized for the reaction, but you were concerned enough to bring him inside and sit him down with a cup of water.

As he sat drinking his water, he heard a child’s cry. You quickly got up on the table and went to care for your children, coming back with two babies, one held firmly in each of your arms. He was reminded vividly of Martha showing off Bruce to him when he was a baby, and how his dear friend had always wanted more children.

You quickly introduced him to your children, Perseus and Celeste (L/N), or as they were normally called, Percy and Cel. They were small and he could tell that they were less than a year old. The way you smiled at them with pure unadulterated love…. It made his heart ache.

You spent your time chatting with Alfred while Damien played with the cat, who was about ready to pop. You and Damien had already agreed that he would be taking the mom to his home for the time being. However, neither of you were expecting her to start going into labor during this visit.

Damian noticed it before either you or Alfred. He had read up on the behavior, and knew better than to try and move a cat from where she was obviously nesting. He informed both you and Alfred of the behavior and bluntly asked you how long she been acting this way.

You were surprised, but thought about it and said it probably only been for about 2-3 hours. Unfortunately, neither of you knew if this was the cats first time giving birth, or even how old Morgana was, so you were flying blind here.

You didn’t let yourself freak out, however. You knew enough about labor with cats that they were pretty self-sufficient, so you quickly phoned up Jason and told him that Morgana was going to give birth within the next 24 hours, and advised him to bring over a heating pad of some kind.

He arrived 20 minutes later with a heating pad and very, very confused. Tensions were high, especially since Damian and Jason were both stressed due to some thing they refused to talk about.(Arkham had been really quiet lately, which definitely meant something was up and was stressing everyone out.) however, stayed calm and firm with each of them, not allowing them to bicker too much. You distracted them both by having them help you care for the babies and telling them stories of your childhood.

Alfred watch this with amusement. Another similarity you had with Miss Martha was your levelheadedness, though your patience was far stronger than hers. Your voice was different, rich with emotion, and he smiled as you placated his grandsons. You were a calming influence

You spent another nine hours together, distracting the boys when needed and talking with Alfred, before the kittens started appearing. Luckily, none of you needed to intervene, and Morgana gave birth to five healthy baby kittens.

You and Damian had already agreed that they would have similar names to the story, which meant that you now had Arthur, Nimue Merlin, Guinevere, and Lancelot. (Jason preened when he heard your decision. Alfred simply smiled, remembering the story as one Master Bruce had often read to Master Jason, who would often pretend to be one of the knights afterwards in the garden.(he felt so nostalgic))

By the end of the visit, it has been agreed that Damian would take the kittens and the cat with him for the next eight weeks, until it was safe to separate them from their mother, as he had more supplies and frankly, more time on his hands. Alfred helped the three of you with transporting them, and gave you his phone number in case you needed help.

You walk away from this whole thing with a pretty favorable outlook on Alfred. He kept a good conversation and was very kind to you. You aren’t as invested in him as you are Damien and Jason, but you are willing to see him again and think he is very nice.

Alfred is more invested, going straight into slight yandere territory. He will run his own private test with your DNA later and figure out about you being Bruce’s child. He will do research later and find out about your mother. He will do his own research towards your habits and how to slightly insert himself further into your life, but he knows to be patient. He knows to let you come to him.

Alfred will slowly insert himself into your life. One way he does is the kids. Alfred is very good with your children, and he says it is due to experience with Bruce.(He is surprised at the insistence from both Master Damian and Master Jason to be quiet about the heritage and him not being their biological grandfather, but he acquiesced.) He end up being a babysitter of sorts, and you were always grateful.

He also establishes himself as someone you can call, and he will always answer. You often make a habit of simply calling him whenever you have questions about things with the babies or just wish to talk to someone who won’t be so protective.(while Damien and Jason are both very kind, you know that complaining to them will make them upset and want to handle the situation, with Alfred you can vent and he will not do anything.(as far as you know))

However, Alfred wants to bring you into the family a lot more immediately than the other two do, and he knows that the others will need to be integrated into your life if things are to go well.(He will make things go well. He will not let them scare you off.) So, if he makes a few comments to Master Timothy about how quiet the Iceberg lounge seems to be, and a few remarks to you about seeing you perform someday, well that’s his business. (the Wayne family is his business.)

Edit: here is the long awaited Alfred chapter. Writing Yandere Alfred is kind of hard, but also I feel very good about this. Thank you all for voting on the names, I was a bit surprised that so many people liked my suggestion of Perseus. I will find the person who originally suggested Celeste and offer them their free story or series inspired by them shortly. I hope you all are having a wonderful day and that this is what you hoped it would be.

Yan Batfam x Singer! Single mom! Martha lookalike! Reader

( I know it’s a lot but they are all important to the plot)

Part 1:Beginnings and first encounters

You are Bruce’s bio daughter. Your mom, who didn’t know who the father of her kid was, gave you up to your aunt to be raised by them, but you didn’t know until your adoptive parent’s funeral that you weren’t their biological daughter. You had twins recently with a shitty ex of yours who you broke up with not long before the funeral after he tried to hurt your daughter for crying.

After the funeral, where you learn that your bio mom wasn’t sure who your bio dad was, but that she knew he lived in Gotham, you decide to move to Gotham. In part due to your biological father, in part due to avoiding your ex(who had refused to be listed on the birth certificate since you gave birth during a break in your relationship), and in part due to the basically free house your bio mom had owned in Gotham. So, you moved with the twins to an abandoned, slightly dilapidated house just outside of Crime Alley, and got yourself to work.

You got a job at the Ice berg Lounge, in part due to there being an opening, and in part due to you helping two women who worked there who apparently worked right under Mr. Cobblepot?

You quickly got a reputation as a singer with a knack for knowing just what song fit a customer. It was a bit of a game between you and the other workers, where they would point out a person and you would sing a song based on their vibes. You always managed your hit home with your songs, leading to you becoming one of the most popular performers at the Iceberg Lounge.

That’s what leads to Red Hood coming in one night. He had heard about you from a few of his men, and wanted to know what all the hype was about.(This take place during the Red Hood arc, where he has already been established as a crime boss but the Batfamily doesn’t know his identity)

Cobblepot asked you to sing a song for Red, and pointed him out to you. You knew who he was, you were just outside his area, and honestly you kind of liked what he was doing for the community, so you were willing to preform, even offering to sing two songs about him(something you had only done a few times with regulars who you really liked.

Jason accepted. You started off with You’re Gonna Go Far, Kid by The Offspring. You didn’t usually do a lot of rock songs, but that song resonated with you when you looked at him.(Jason loved the song. It was angry but fighting music, and your voice was really good. He understood why so many of his men praised your music(he just couldn’t understand why you looked so familiar))

The next song was different. You didn’t usually sing two songs, and the few times you did, people tended to vary reactions, from shock to anger to accidentally setting off a break down. But you had promised. You just hoped Red Hood wouldn’t hate you for the next song(you didn’t understand why it felt so right to sing the next song, when it didn’t seem like a Red Hood song, but you didn’t want to question it now.)

Then, you sang Good for you by Olivia Rodrigo, and everyone froze. (Jason didn’t know how you knew this anger of his. How did you know how he felt about Bruce replacing him? How did you know?) No one understood the song, especially when the recipient was a murderous crime boss, but they didn’t interrupt.

After you finished the song, you looked at Red Hood. He was sitting ramrod straight. You couldn’t see his face, but his posture was very tense. Slowly, he stood up, and walked to the stage. You didn’t know what you expected, but it wasn’t for him to drop $200 in your tip jar, and leave without a word.(Jason’s head was spinning. The green wasn’t invading, but it surrounded the edges of his vision. He needed to leave. He had to come back again, probably as a civilian, but for now, he needed to leave.)

After that, you got even more visitors, and a raise in your salary. You even made a new friend, Jason, and you were even starting to consider sending your kids to daycare instead of a baby sitter(you wouldn’t do that. You liked your arrangement with the street kids, where you would pay them in food and cash to watch your kids during the day. You liked taking care of them, but they needed to feel like they were doing stuff for you, so you didn’t make a fuss.)

Then, the Joker got out of Arkham.

Edit: I hope you guys enjoy this. This will probably be a series. I’ve had this idea for ages but never got around to it before now. This isn’t related to my Bruce or Jason series, which I will do, but I just wanted to finally put the on here. Please comment any suggestions for the kids names, or what you want to see next!

[jesamnelovelace]

One fun thing I like to do to make comics more enjoyable is to figure out ways to make scenes that to me seem ooc feel more in character. One good example I have for this is with Jason.

For this what happened was there were two scenes where I didn’t really like how Jason was acting, and when I realized what he did in both scenes was pretty similar, I decided to find a new and better way to interpret them.

The first of these is this scene from Grayson #12 where Jason hits Dick and yells at him for faking his death despite the fact this is all Bruce’s fault.

The second is the part in Pennyworth R.I.P. when Jason blames Damian for Alfred dying. Again. Despite the fact that the blame for what happened goes more to Bruce.

Both of these scenes annoyed me when I first read them because Jason of all people should understand that these things were Bruce’s fault. In both cases he even knows that Bruce was the one who told Dick and Damian to do the thing that Jason is upset about. So it was really annoying that the writers would make him blame Damian and Dick.

But then I realized one thing in common with each scene is that Bruce isn’t actually present when Jason makes these accusations. In the first scene Bruce has amnesia, so even if he wanted to, he can’t go off and yell at him because Bruce wouldn’t know what he was getting yelled at for. And they weren’t allowed to interact with him about that stuff anyways. In the second Bruce simply just hasn’t arrived to their little get together yet.

I think I’ve talked about this before in another post, but how I see Jason’s anger in most cases is as a defense mechanism. So he expresses his emotions with anger. I can’t think of specific issues off the top of my head right now, but I remember there being times where Jason would say something awful to somebody, but in his thoughts he’s thinking the exact opposite. He’s just lashing out. Usually because he has some emotion he’s feeling, but he can’t let anybody know.

Jason can get pretty emotional, so of course the death of his grandfather figure and the fake death and return of his older brother would make those emotions come out. Just in his own way of expressing them.

So using all this, I reinterpreted both of these scenes as Jason lashing out at the closest person he could find responsible. He needed somebody he could blame. Since Bruce wasn’t there he lashed out at Dick and Damian instead even though they’re not at fault for either of their situations. Jason doesn’t necessarily mean what he’s saying, but he’s upset and that’s how he’s showing it. And I’m not using this to excuse Jason’s actions because it’s still really bad on his part. But it fits more in line with how I personally interpret his character if I look at it this way. It’s still a flaw for him, but it’s one that I think adds to his character.

It’s obviously not what the writers intended in either of these scenes, but I just thought it was a fun way to look at it, and it makes the scenes more tolerable.

[accidentallyadoptedbybatman]

cause its pride im posting my (current) batfam headcanons and any bigotry on my page will be blocked we don’t discriminate here

bruce: bisexual and cis he/him but he sometimes wears makeup (it covers the bags and makes his eyes look pretty)

dick: pansexual and identifies as genderfluid, he uses all the pronouns (masculine but he wears whatever they feels like wearing and uses whatever pronouns she feels each day the batfam check via message or at breakfast each morning)

jason: bisexual with a preference to women and he identifies as male (transgender) he/him (he still likes crops, eyeliner and similar stuff)

cass: the badass lesbian part 2 (kate is part 1, cass is canonically one of the strongest batfam members she’s badass, this didn’t affect how i hc her as lesbian in anyway) and she doesnt understand gender but they use she/they cause they feel right (there was a moment where the fam tried to explain but she never got it. i say this cause cass was raised as a weapon to kill she wasn’t even taught how to read and write so i doubt anyone taught her about stereotypical gender norms or similar things)

tim: you know my boys a canon bisexual and he really doesnt care what pronouns you use for him or how they dress (“no there are cases to solve fuck gender”)

duke: questioning and identifies as cis he/him pronouns (he thought he likes girls but theres a few boys in his classes who are starting to look really attractive)

steph: sapphic and identifies as female (transgender) she/her pronouns(she sticks to masculine clothes tho because “they’re more comfy than skirts and they make my arms looks great tim”)

damian: demi, aroace, pan and he just doesn’t get society’s big deal with gender but he uses he/him pronouns(he doesn’t understand any appeal of sex or romance but he thinks he’d like a partner in the future but more queerplatonic. As for gender he doesn’t understand how someones gender affects them “what do you mean father hows the fact they’re male, female, genderqueer, or trans going to affect me when i fight them??” again raised to kill people without mercy while he may of had a little explaination on stereotypical gender norms and etc i doubt it was the main part of his education when he were with the League of Assassins)

edit: i had to further explain some of my points cause someone thought i was being bigoted and fetishising trans people cause of the wording ‘preferences women and transgender he/him’ i didnt mean he preferenes trans men those were my headcanons for his gender and his pronouns. if anyone finds any other problems like this please tell me i have no intent to bigot or fetishise anyone.

feel free to add these or give your own opinions as long as you keep it polite

[timmydraker]

Bruce had never been to The Eclipse before.

The club was similar to that of a gentleman’s club from the starting years of America, filled with dozens of tables all curved and ready for a game or feast. The three floors of the place each had a game room, a bar and a section for private rooms for the more seedy type of talks to be had.

It was one of the few non-criminal funded place in Gotham that was still rich. Deals definitely went down, but it was more fitting for gossip that anything else.

Often people went there for catch ups in a refined setting.

Bruce was there for a catch up, or more accurately, a reuniting with his son.

Tim had sent Bruce a time, date and location and said he was only going to meet with him and no one else. Considering Bruce hadn’t seen his beloved son in nearly four years, including his time in the time stream, he accepted without argument.

Tim said he would look different but that if Bruce was as good of a detective as he says, it wouldn’t be a problem.

Bruce had no idea what his son meant until a woman let him inside and told him that ‘Drake had asked you to find him yourself’ with a confused bend in her eyebrows.

It took him a little longer than he’d be happy to admit, although still less than forty seconds, to find his son.

Or maybe that was the wrong word now, if the regal young woman staring at her drink was anything to go by.

Like something out of a vintage movie, the woman had curled black hair and dark red lipsticks. Her dark eyeshadow matched her sweetheart collar dress, black with thick straps and tight enough that each breath was visible.

The gloves on her hand were long and black, one putting a stark contrast to the pink coloured cigarette lit in her hand.

Everything about her screamed old money.

Bruce only knew it was Tim because of the sweet blue eyes and shape of his jaw, though there was also some kind of… paternal instinct in play.

Tim only looked up when he put a hand on the rounded couch, Jim’s tearing nervously down at his distinguished looking child.

It was when she smiled, a real thing that was just highlighted by her dark red lips, that Bruce knew he wasn’t mistaken.

“Hi Bruce.”

A lighter voice, not soft so much as smooth, and nothing like the more monotone sound he was used to.

“Ti-… hi.”

She smiles and gestures for him to sit before taking a final drag of her smoke and putting it out.

Bruce stares at for just a second before looking at his child. Despite the shock of the obvious changes, he notices something far more important, “You look healthy.”

Well fed, clean, nourished.

Like she’s gotten sleep.

“I am. I’ve done a lot of work on myself and it’s paid off.”

Bruce smiles, genuine and almost a little painful, “I can see that. What… what do I call you?”

“Charlotte. Charlotte Jackson Drake.”

“A beautiful name.”

Charlotte smiles before a serious look comes over her face, “Bruce. I haven’t just changed my lifestyle and body, I’ve changed how I look at the world and I’ve come to understand a lot more in my life now.”

Never has Bruce been so attentive, ears feeling on fire as he does his best to focus on every word spoken to him.

“The main thing I’ve come to understand is you.”

Bruce doesn’t move, scared to make his daughter stop talking to him and so he just does his best to show he’s listening.

Charlotte continues, “I get why you brought all of us in. It wasn’t just to protect us from the world, but from ourselves. I can see now that you are only crazy because you’ve been given the impossible challenge of being a necessity in Gotham and the worlds survival and a pretty. It doesn’t change that you’ve made mistakes and fucked up, but I get why now. You didn’t want us to apart of Batman, but we forced you, me most of all.”

Bruce is more than stunned by the honesty and understanding in Charlotte’s words, but the fact that he himself only figured that out after loosing Jason.

She smiles at him like she could read his mind, “It took me a long time and I still have anger towards you, yet I want you in my life all the same.”

A gloved hand comes to hold onto his own, delicate and gentle in a way that reminds him of his mother all those years ago.

Charlottes smiles is far too sad to be hers though, “I’m not the boy you once knew, not just because of the woman I want to be now. I don’t want to help you, to save you and parent you, I want to know you. As my father. If-if you’ll allow it?”

Bruce has cried in public before, several times in fact, but normally it’s to play up his over emotional persona.

This time it’s pure relief.

“Of course. Anything you want, at any pace you want, I- what ever you need.”

Charlotte smiles and squeezes his hand, “Thank you.”

Bruce eventually huffs a laugh and wipes his eyes, “god, you really are good at catching me off guard.”

She laughs, a honey like noise that makes him realises he’s never heard Tim smile and that maybe his daughter could only do that once she be same ‘her’.

The two order drinks and Bruce is given the tale of how Charlotte came to be, of how sometimes she misses being Tim but never wants to go back. He learns that she chose her name based on what she would ah e been if she was born a girl so she wouldn’t feel like she was betraying her parents.

Bruce learns that she is still a hero, operating as Red Robin, but that she focuses on prolonged crimes like trafficking rings and makes sure to take them down in on go instead of busting a few and giving the rest a chance to escape.

He’s not so happy to hear that she isn’t ready to talk to the others and that she only really talks to Cass and Duke as both of them have always been on her side and are truely his siblings.

Yet he respects it, if only to keep her close and show her the love he failed to give.

Respecting his daughter’s privacy, he doesn’t tell his other kids anything about what happened and acts ignorant when there’s a few articles about the mysterious Charlotte Drake and her distant relation to the private Tim Drake.

He meets with his little girl, his Lottie, once a week at The Eclipse and talks with her about their businesses both in the literal sense and more broadly.

He meets Bernard and can’t quite see what it is about the strange boy that makes his daughter so happy, but all he needs is to see her big smile and know it doesn’t matter.

That and the several background checks he did.

[nightwolf14292]

I understand this view point!

Personally I've always thought of Tim in that way because with Dick, Bruce tried to shield him from his work but he asked to be Robin (and up until he Two-Face incident he truly enjoyed it) when he found out that Bruce was Batman, same with Jason (who also enjoyed it despite being more violent, what with the whole 'Robin gives me magic' thing) , and Damian fought for the role (though I do agree he's the most similar to Tim in the lack of choice aspect, he does seem to enjoy being Robin though from what I've read).

Tim definitely was excited about the prospect of being Robin, since Batman was one of his heroes, but I did always get the feeling that that childish wonder had worn off pretty quickly when he was faced with a Bruce that was double traumatized from Jason's death. Yeah Tim first went into it thinking "Wow, this is one of my heroes! I can help him out and save Gotham just like him!" But I think over time it became more of a codependent relationship, with Bruce projecting Jason's (and Dick's since they weren't on good terms at the time) image onto Tim to cope, and Tim loving Bruce because he was neglected by his parents and got Bruce's attention by being Robin.

I always visualized him becoming Robin as like a half-choice thing. Because on one hand yes, he did technically have the choice to become Robin, but he felt like he had to because he was stalking Bruce, and therefore he was the only one seeing that Bruce was starting to go off the deep end. He had it fully in his mind that Bruce needed a Robin, and since Dick wouldn't become Robin again, he was the only one who fill the Robin role without threatening Batman's identity. So he felt like he had some sort of responsibility.

And that's also why I don't think he had as much of a choice to get out either, because even after that initial excitement had worn off he could completely see how much Bruce needed a Robin to balance him out, and it probably would've affected him even more negatively had he left. But I do think the fact that after his parent's death he made up a fake uncle purely to keep from getting adopted by Bruce sort of showed how he didn't necessarily want to stick around at the time (Though I suppose you could also chalk that up to him just not wanting another father figure at that moment)

Really I do compare it to the situation with Dick, mainly because they were similar.

Bruce fired Dick as Robin after he kept getting hurt, and Dick went out soul searching and, with Superman as a guide, decided that he loved helping people and chose to take up a new title.

Dick fired Tim as Robin after he decided Damian would make a better sidekick (because he thought of Tim as more of an equal), and Tim basically had a mental breakdown, started going on more secretive, dangerous missions out to random places, and dedicated nearly all of his time to trying to prove Bruce wasn't dead while everyone around him thought he was nuts for it.

I always got the impression that out of all of them, Tim was kinda the one that being a vigilante had the biggest consistently negative effect on. Consistently being the key word, since being a vigilante wasn't good for any of them lol

I think he enjoys what he does now, but I think it's really bad for him. And I think he goes through highs and lows, highs where he enjoys saving people and working as a vigilante, and lows where he doesn't enjoy it as much and does it out of obligation that he feels.

But hey, I haven't actually read many comics myself and most of my knowledge is what I read on the wiki + fandom stuff, so maybe that's not very canon 🤷

Your take is totally valid too :D

As much as I love TimKon, I prefer TimBern and it's mainly because of this:

“Bernard says I sacrifice myself like it's a bad thing.”

“But it's all I've ever known.”

“All that my family has ever been taught.”

Tim, out of all of the BatFamily members is the one that never really had a choice.

Bruce had a choice to become Batman. He almost retired, until things went badly again and he realized how much more awful Gotham would be if he did.

Dick had a choice to become Robin. When Bruce fired him he could've finished college and lived a normal life, but he chose to continue on as Nightwing.

Jason had a choice to become Robin. And while his mind had been messed with after being dunked in the Lazarus Pit, he had a choice to become Red Hood, too.

Damian had a choice to become Robin. He fought hard for the role, and seems to genuinely enjoy doing it.

Tim didn't have a choice to become Robin. Yes, no one actually forced him into the role, but he saw what had happened to Bruce after Jason's death (such as how he became more violent), and knew that Bruce needed a Robin to keep himself sane. He tried going to Dick, but Dick said the best he could do was help as Nightwing as he wasn't willing to be Robin again. So Tim felt like he had to take up the role, because Batman, his greatest hero, would lose it if he didn't.

Tim also didn't have a choice to give up being a vigilante, unlike the others. When he got replaced as Robin, Bruce was trapped in time and everyone but him thought he was dead. He didn't have Dick's experience of going out soul searching and deciding that being a hero was what he wanted in life, he had to almost immediately take up a new secret identity and start going on missions so he could find out what happened to Bruce.

I love TimBern so much, because Bernard is Tim's connection to civilian life. If you're a hero dating a hero, even when you're being civilians and doing civilian things, there's always going to be the knowledge of who you both are really, and the missions you've been on together (Such as Tim looking at Kon and remembering things like when he tried to clone him because he was ‘dead’). I feel like with Bernard, Tim can be a full on civilian and forget about the hero life for a while, and that makes it special.

Also I just think Bernard is neat :3

[the-atlas-sister]

The First Date (Damian Wayne X Reader)

So in this, you are the daughter of Green Arrow, Oliver Queen (NOT THE ARROW VERSION!! THE ANIMATED AND COMIC VERSION), and Black Canary, Dinah Lance. Also in this Dinah is dead and you have taken on the role of Black Canary

"Done!" Abby (moi!!!) exclaimed, tying the hair tie in my hair. "Aw, you look so good!" She backed up, admiring her work.

I looked at myself in the bathroom mirror, smiling slightly. "I mean, I usually look beautiful but now I look even more beautiful," I joked.

"I know," Abby said, making me chuckle.

Suddenly, there was a knock on the door. "What time is it?" I asked.

"Six on the dot," Abby said, looking impressed. "Wow."

"It is Damian," I shrugged before my eyes widened. "I'm going on a date with Damian Wayne."

"Chill," y/b/f said, noticing my panic. "You asked him out, remember?"

"But-"

"Hey Damian," y/b/f said from the living room.

I looked at Abby, a panicked expression on my face. "You're okay," she whispered before leading me out of the bathroom.

Damian looked at me before mumbling something in Arabic. I was rusty when it came to other languages but I thought I caught "Beautiful..." which was enough to make my entire face turn red.

"Hey," I said, putting on a confident face. "You look good." My eyes scanned him. He wore a pair of nice black jeans and a matching skin-tight turtle-neck.

"You look..." His eyes scanned me.

"Gorgeous? Beautiful? Sexy?" I guessed, smirking at Damian blushed.

"Yes," Damian said, making me blush.

"Okay... well," Abby said, pushing me forward. "You two have fun," she said as I slipped on my shoes. "But not too much fun." She eyeballed Damian in a very best friend way. "And have her back by 10."

"And be safe!" Myloh added.

"Bye guys," I said, quickly ushering Damian out the door before closing it. "Sorry."

"I had a similar conversation with my brothers before I left," Damian said before cringing slightly. "Although it was a bit more-"

"I don't want to know," I said, shaking my head. "So, what do you have planned, Mr. Wayne?" I asked, walking down the apartment hallway.

"That's a surprise," Damian said with a stoic face.

"Not a huge fan of surprises," I said as we reached the elevator.

"You'll like this one," Damian stated matter-of-factly, pressing the button to the last level.

"Is that a fact?" I challenged as the elevator lowered.

"Yes," Damian stated, making me tilt my head. "I did some research and I'm sure you'll enjoy this."

"I don't know if that was meant to be sweet but it came off as creepy," I chuckled, leaning on the elevator wall.

"I just meant- I asked Abby what you're interested in," Damian explained, slowly going pink.

"What'd she say?" I asked, both worried and curious.

"She explained your love of movies, books, the stars, and food," Damian stated as the doors slid open.

"So, which did you choose?" I questioned, walking backward out of the elevator.

"Still a surprise," Damian smirked, following me.

"Mhm, game on Mr. Wayne," I said, turning around and walking out the apartment building's front doors. My eyes widened a bit as I saw Damian's motorcycle parked in front of the building. "Seriously?" I asked, looking at him as he stood next to me.

"Complaining?" he asked, looking at me sideways.

"Not as long as I get to drive," I chuckled, approaching the motorcycle.

"No," Damian said, standing next to me. He grabbed one of the helmets before handing me the second one.

"I know how," I frowned.

"No," Damian repeated before blinking. "Strange, that felt familiar." He then shook his head before getting on the bike. "Come on," he said looking at me. I rolled my eyes but climbed on the bike behind him. "Hold on," he said before putting on his helmet.

"You sure you don't want to drive as a way to get me to hold on to you?" I teased, resting my head on Damian's shoulder. Damian tensed up, making me chuckle. "I was kidding," I reassured him, putting on the helmet and grabbing his shoulders.

Damian cleared his throat. "I-I respect you, but for your own safety, I suggest you put your arms around my waist."

I blushed, wrapping my arms around his waist. Damian started the bike and drove out of his parking spot. My grip tightened as Damian sped up and we reached the highway. I grinned under the helmet as the adrenaline rushed through me due to the speed.

***

"You have to take me on your motorcycle more often," I said, letting out a breathy laugh and taking off my helmet.

"It's not really mine," Damian corrected, taking off his helmet and getting off the bike.

"But with Promythous-" I furrowed my brows, placing the helmet on the bike's seat.

"That was Robin's bike," Damian explained, leading me to the secret destination. He had parked a block away from the surprise place, just to keep the secrecy. "Damian Wayne does not have a motorcycle."

"Who's-" I continued, getting into pace next to Damian.

"My brother's," he shrugged with a small smug smile.

"You stole your brother's motorcycle?" I asked, laughing slightly.

"He told me, women love men with motorcycles," Damian said. "So I took that as an invitation for me to 'borrow' his." He smirked to himself at the thought. "Also, my other brother said I should. I'm not one to listen to him but, I did enjoy the idea of stealing Jason's bike." I smiled at his mini-rant. He seemed to notice. "I'm sorry for oversharing," he said, his face returning to it's neutral state.

"No, it's fine," I reassured him as we turned a corner. "It's nice hearing you talk more."

Damian blinked, obviously surprised by my answer. "What... would you like to talk about?" he asked slowly.

"You," I said. "I don't know much about you."

"O-oh," Damian stuttered, which was a rare sound. "I grew up with the League of Assassins."

"The group your father trained with?" I asked, interested to learn more. "Lead by Ra AlGugl?"

"My grandfather," Damian confirmed. "When my father was training, he met my mother. She- she tricked him into having... intercourse with her. That's how I was created. My father left before I was born and I was raised by my grandfather and mother. I was trained from birth to be the master assassin. I was supposed to be the best. There was no room for error."

"That doesn't sound like a fun childhood," I said.

"I suppose not," Damian hummed. "I loved my grandfather very much, or more admired him. He told me we would destroy the world and rebuild it in our own image." He scanned our surroundings, almost as if he was imagining how he could make each detail superior.

"That's still partly your mindset isn't it?" I asked, making Damian's gaze turn to me. "You see the world and people and just imagine how you can make them better." Damian blinked. "You even yourself believe you're better than everyone. You think you'll be a better Batman, a better hero."

"I don't-"

"I'm not critiquing, just observing," I stated. I blushed under Damian's intense stare. "I-I interrupted, I'm sorry. What about your mother?"

"She's dead," Damian said.

"Oh," I said.

"She wasn't a mother anyway," Damian continued. "Last I saw her she tried to create an adult 'perfect' clone of me and killed him."

"And I thought my dad was hardcore," I mumbled. "How did she...?"

"Helicopter crashed after trying to kill me, my father, and Grayson," Damian said almost casually.

My eyes widened. "You didn't deserve it," I said as we turned yet another corner. Damian turned to me. "You deserved a loving childhood. Not one with a group of assassins and Batman."

Damian's eyes softened. "I did get, what you call, a loving childhood with my father," he said. "He would set up movie nights. And my brothers are... overly loving, at least Grayson."

"He's Nightwing, right?" I asked, grinning a bit. Damian nodded. "I've met him. He has a bit of an older brother feel. And I'm sure he understands how hard it is to grow up with someone like Bruce."

"He has made it very clear he does," Damian scoffed. "As had Todd." I gave him a questioning look. "Red Hood."

"Oh, never met him," I mumbled.

We walked in comfortable silence for a minute.

"Here," Damian said, stopping in front of a small and quaint ice cream shop.

"Ice cream?" I asked, giving him a lopsided grin. "On Friday."

"You said you and your mother used to always had ice cream on Fridays," Damian said shyly.

I let out a small laugh. "You- this is really sweet," I said, a bit surprised. I remembered when I told him that detail about my childhood.

***Flashback***

"Tell me more about your mother," Damian said after a while of silence. "I assume she's where you got your power?"

"Yeah," I said quietly, looking up at the ceiling. "She was- awesome. She was the first Black Canary. Trained in thousands of martial art styles."

"You're telling me things I already know," Damian stated, making me look at him.

"She was a pretty cool mom," I chuckled, crossing my legs on the bed. "She couldn't cook though. That was something she wasn't taught. She'd always make time for us to have an ice cream night. Every Friday." I smiled at the memory. "Sometimes she'd come back from patrol at midnight then wake me up, just so we could still eat ice cream."

"Do you still do it?" Damian questioned, turning to face me fully. "With your father?"

"Not usually," I stated, trying not to sound bitter. "He's usually busy with the Justice League and his company."

"How did she die?" Damian asked softly, making me go stiff.

"I was thirteen," I recited. "She and my dad went to face Prometheus. It was just in the early stages of my training-at least for the Canary cry, so I wasn't allowed to go. I- I remember my dad calling the house. He told me he'd be home soon, but something happened to Mom. Apparently, Prometheus slit her throat. She didn't want anyone to find out her identity so she insisted that only Martian Manhunter or Batman operated on her."

"But it was too late," Damian assumed. I nodded.

"Dad and I hardly even spoke after that," I sighed. "It hit us both- hard, but after a year, we got through it. He's still protective though."

"What about your powers?"

"I don't use them," I stated. "My mom died before we got far in training."

"Why don't you continue?" Damian asked. "I assume the league would be open to help or your friends."

"I can't," I sighed. "My vocal cords are too old."

"That sounds like an excuse," Damian stated. "I was unaware you were a quitter, Queen."

***End of flashback***

"I just figured you'd enjoy it," Damian shrugged, turning his head to the side to hide his smile.

"I do," I chuckled. "Although this is very cliche."

"I have seen as such in many of the movies Grayson forced me to watch," Damian admitted.

"Thank you, Damian," I smiled before rushing towards the outside counter, Damian following. "Hello!" I said to the person at the counter.

"Hello," the person said. She was a pretty girl, seemingly teen age with flawless makeup. She looked like she belonged at Dutch Brothers.

"I would like two scoops of y/f/i.c (your favirote ice cream) in a cup, please," I said before turning to Damian.

"Awesome," the girl said. "And you?"

Damian glanced at me. "None for me," he answered.

"You're not going to get anything?" I asked.

"I've never had ice cream," Damian admitted.

"Never?" I asked in shock.

"No," Damian said, his face showing me he didn't understand the problem. I scanned his face before turning to the girl.

"He'll have one scoop of almond in a cup," I stated.

"Alright," the girl smiled. "Be right with you."

"I said I didn't want any," Damian said, looking at me.

"You've never had it and you can't just sit there watching me eat," I protested. "Plus, I think you'll like it."

"Why is that?" Damian challenged.

"I'm an observer of people and you seem like an almond guy," I summarized.

"Explain your thinking Miss Queen," Damian said.

"Well, almond is more of a traditional Arabic ice cream flavor (please correct me if I'm wrong, I got this off the internet), and knowing you, you prefer salty and savory over sweet," I explained before leaning back and spreading my hands like I was presenting an amazing discovery.

"We shall see," Damian just said.

"Here," the girl chimed in, interrupting our discussion. She handed us our ice cream.

"Thank you," I said. I placed my ice cream on the counter before pulling out my wallet, but Damian had already paid. "I was going to pay," I said as he handed me my ice cream.

"It's proper etiquette for the man to pay," Damian said, leading me away from the ice cream shop.

"But it's not required," I chuckled. "Besides, we're both the children of billionaires." Damian didn't answer as he led me to a small park beside the shop. "I'll just pay next time."

"Next time?" Damian asked, stopping in front of a blanket with a projector on it.

"Yeah," I smirked. "If I haven't scared you away."

"Not at all," Damian said, sitting on the blanket. He motioned for me to sit down and I obliged.

"Try the ice cream," I said excitedly. Damian glanced at the tan-colored ice cream before taking a scoop and eating it. I stared at him, waiting for some type of reaction. His eyes widened before he took another scoop. "I told you!" I smirked.

"Coincidence," Damian scoffed but took more bites.

"Mhm," I hummed, leaning back on my free hand. I looked around, noticing a screen across from the projector. "You set this up?"

"Pennyworth did," Damian corrected. "Although I choose the film."

"Oh really?" I asked. "What'd you choose?"

"y/f/a/m (your favirote animated movie)," Damian stated. My face lit up. "Abby told me it was your favorite. Although I don't understand how or why a film made for children would be your favorite."

"You've never seen it have you?" I asked. Damian shook his head. "Then you'll figure out that it's not really a children's film. And you'll discover the superior soundtrack."

[kimberly-spirits13]

Batfam Reacting to S/O Turning into a Robin HC (Request)

So this entire thing happens because you and Bruce were fighting Circe who just had to throw a spell at a civilian

You jump in front of the spell and catch it, taking the blow

This means that on site, you turn into a Robin

Wtf

Bruce is big mad now since now he thinks that you could be a Robin for the rest of your life and that’s just not cool

The moment that the fight is over, he calls in everyone from the league

Z, Constantine, Dr. Fate, Zatara, Wonder Woman, the whole lot

Once they find out what happens there’s a worry but eventually they find that it’s going to be alright and you’ll change back within the next 72 hours or so

72 HOURS

Bruce just simply cannot wait that long

he doesn’t know what to do with a bird like

ALFRED

They make sure to not try and feed you anything that’s too disgusting that you wouldn’t normally eat

No worms

That would be gross

Bruce does find it kind of funny that you turn into a Robin and not something else

So happy it wasn’t a bat

You’d get mixed and lost with the rest of them in the cave and that would be weird

Plus there’s a high chance that you’d just fall from the ceiling

Once you finally detransform from the entire debacle, Bruce is very happy to have you back

Gets special charms from Z and Constantine that repel bad magic back onto the user

Ensures that something like this doesn’t happen again

Dick Grayson:

This man does not know what to do

It’s a run in with Witch Boy that causes this to happen

Z!!!!!!

That’s the first person that he calls

Wally is really the one that takes you back to him since Dick wasn’t on this mission but you and Wally were leading it

You jumped in front of one of the newer recruits and that’s how that happened

Does this entire experience count as a souvenir?

Like maybe he just takes a feather that you drop or something and like SOUVENIR OF THAT ONE TIME THAT Y/N TURNED INTO A ROBIN

After the initial freak out mode, he just thinks that it’s kind of funny that it was a Robin

Z said that the spell was the wrong spell (thankfully) and you’d only turn into something that you loved for a little while

RObin yOU TuRNeD InTO A RoBIn

And that makes Dick a blushing mess

Once you finally do turn back, he teases you

Your most important question is did you eat anything gross

The answer was no but still

Trust issues

he does mention what the spell was and that lead to some blushing

Jason Todd:

This was the last thing that he had planned

The absolute last thing

On a mission that involved some weird magic stuff, you just happened to get turned into a Robin

What the literal hell is happening now

The first instinct is to see that it’s really you

Once you understand that you’re a Robin, you’re just like, oh, so this is happening now

And that’s just how it is, you fly up onto his shoulder and just run with it

Just sitting there like it’s no one’s business cause it isn’t

If anyone asks why there’s a Robin following, it’s just what’s happening now

He is concerned that you don’t turn into a human again

So he does make sure to ask and this time, it needs a counter spell

Z is the one to do this since Jason isn’t keen on trusting Constantine

Doesn’t take super long to do this since Z is already very powerful

We Stan a powerful helpful queen

So Jason goes to one of her shows and sneaks back stage still in the Red Hood uniform and explains what happens

Z just goes ahead, sets you on the floor, and does the transformation

It was really easy, not to painful, but it was weird to just be laying on the floor and not able to fly

You’ll only miss that part

Jason doesn’t miss any of it and still jokes about the fact that you were a Robin

“Babe at least you didn’t blow up in your time being Robin.”

JASON PETER TODD

Tim Drake:

So you turn into a Robin on a mission with the team

He was on this mission and watched the entire thing go down

The funny part was that you could still talk since the magic was somewhat incomplete

There’s just this small voice “WHAT THE HELL!”

And then Tim knows that it’s definitely you

Tim was going to take you to one of the magic users in the league

but since Diana was right there when you got back, you stormed up flew up to her and just mouthed off

“DIANA LOOK AT ME! THAT ASSHOLE CIRCE TURNED ME INTO A ROBIN! THERE’S NOTHING WRONG WITH ROBIN BUT I DON’T WANT TO BE ROBIN! WATCHA LOOKIN AT BATS! I’M NOT UP FOR ADOPTION!”

Tim just died laughing

Cause it really was funny that you were just a little tiny Robin and mouthing off at the most powerful heroes in the world

Recorded it 100%

When Diana takes you to Themyscira in order to get one of the Amazon’s to help, Tim obviously couldn’t come

So it’s about a three day long trip and during that period, Timmy is a mess

He needs to know what’s happening at all times to ensure that you’re alright

When you do finally get home, he tackles you into a hug and checks you up and down to make sure that there’s nothing still wrong

Very happy when he concludes that there’s nothing wrong anymore and you’re back to the regular Y/N

Damian Wayne:

His first instinct is to not let anyone touch you but him

He takes you everywhere and makes sure that you’re alright

You can’t talk but he’s helped birds before and has dated you for some time so he knows what no to do and what to do

That being said, he does want you back to normal ASAP

That means that he’ll call an emergency league meeting without Bruce’s approval

Although Bruce probably would have done the same thing since he really knows that Damian loves you and would make sure that you’re alright

That’s super important to him and the rest of the family since you are kind of family at this point

Damian insists that the magic users help turn you back very quickly

They call in Constantine since Z is off doing other things and he makes sure that he knows exactly what happens

Constantine has had some bad experiences with magic in the past and he wants to be sure that you’re not going to have anything really bad happen to you

Damian is the same way

Probably threatens John’s life if something goes wrong

Once you’re finally back, Damian also tackles you

Though Constantine has to hold him back at first since the shock of turning back and then having someone tackle you to the ground would be over whelming

But when he finally can, he does

Checks you over just like Tim and then doesn’t let you out of his sight for a week or so

It’s not that he doesn’t trust you, just not anyone else

He makes it a point that you’re too important to lose

Cuddles everywhere

Once he does step back and think about it though, he finds it kind of endearing that there are thousands of other things that you could’ve turned into but it was a Robin

It was sweet but didn’t need to last longer than it had to

Duke and Luke:

I’m putting these guys together since in my mind they’re pretty alike

Luke is the classical version of Duke and Duke is the Lofi/ alternative hip hop version of Luke

For these reasons they both have very similar reactions

And that would be to freak out

they take you to Bruce and get advice cause what is going on

They don’t have as much of a connection with the Robin deal since they weren’t ever technically Robin for Batman

Duke is a bit more of an arguable case but still

They do find it both suspicious and a bit comedic that it was a Robin out of anything else though

I have to say that they’re the most chill out of any of the Batfam when it comes to something like this since this kind of thing just happens a lot

Not turning into Robin, just weird outta pocket experiences

Like this is just another thing to add to the list of oh here we go again

Duke does think that you’re still really a pretty Robin

In the most non- weird way possible you’re just a pretty Robin

Luke doesn’t really pay attention to that and instead wants to get to the bottom of what happened so that it doesn’t happen again

They’re both really smart so they’ll figure it out but at different paces since one is more urgent than the other

Doesn’t mean that either care less though

Once you’re back they do make sure that extra diagnostics are run to make sure that nothing was effected and you’ll be okay long and short term

Once they’re satisfied it’ll all go back to being pretty normal

Sry this took so long, exams are running wild

[scorpionyx9621]

Do you think Jason Todd fandom is kinda toxic? Because it seems like NO MATTER what DC do, there'll always be complains. Forget the bad adaptation like Titans. Even Judd Winick cannot escape the criticism with how he potrayed Robin!Jason. They just never satisfied.

SORRY, IT TOOK ME SO LONG TO RESPOND TO THIS. I just moved from Washington D.C. to Seattle, which, for my non-American friends, that's 4442km away. And I DROVE THERE ALL BY MYSELF. And now I'm trying to find new work in a new city and trying to stay mentally healthy and positive. Life is exciting but hard and scary.

*sighs*

As someone who was a fandom elder with V*ltr*n. I've seen some of the worst when it comes to fandom behavior. I'm talking people baking food with shaving razors and trying to give them to the showrunners. I'm talking leaking major plot details and refusing to take it down unless they make their ship canon (I am looking at you, Kl*nce stans) For the most part, DC Comics has had a decades-long reputation of treating their fans like trash and not caring what they think so from what I've seen, we all just grumble and complain in our corners of the internet about how we don't like how X comic portrays Jason Todd.

The challenge with Jason Todd is that he's your clinical anti-hero, the batfamily's Draco in Leather Pants, he's a jerkass woobie, and on top of all of that, he's a Tumblr sexyman. It's a perfect storm for a very fun but frustrating character to be a fan of. It doesn't help that every writer decides to re-invent the wheel every time Jason comes up so his canon lore is confusing at best and inconsistent as a standard.

I guess starting with a general brief on who Jason is and what is uniform about him with every instance he's appeared in comics/media.

Grew up in a poor family in Gotham with a dad who was a petty-mid-level criminal, and a mother who dies of a drug overdose.

Survives on the street on his own by committing petty crimes and potentially even engaging in sexual acts to keep himself alive.

Is cornered by Batman and taken in after Dick Grayson quits/is fired

Becomes the second Robin, but is known for being the harsher, more brutal Robin.

Is killed by Joker after being tortured, but somehow comes back to life and regains senses through the Lazarus Pit

Resolves himself to be better than Batman by basically being Batman but kills people.

Where there has been a lot of conflict in the fandom is the fact that Jason Todd is not a character that is written consistently. DC Comics loves to go with the narrative that Jason was "bad from the start" and was the "bad robin" when, yes, he has trouble controlling his anger, but he also still is just as invested in seeing the best of Gotham City and trying to be a positive change for the world as any other DC Comics hero.

Where I get frustrated with the fandom is its ability to knit-pick every detail of a comic they don't like while completely disregarding everything that makes the comics great and worth it to read. My example being Urban Legends. To which most people had pretty mixed reactions to. I was critical of the comic at first but as it went along I ended up really liking it. I have a feeling DC Comics went to Chip Zdarsky and told him he had 6 issues to bring Jason back into the Bat Family, and honestly he didn't do a bad job. Did it feel rushed? Absolutely. I wish there was more development of Jason and Bruce's characters and their dynamic as a whole. However, where I see a lot of people being angry and upset with Urban Legends is that they feel Zdarsky needlessly wrote Jason as an incompetent fool who needs Bruce to save him.

Whether or not that was the intention of Zdarsky is up to debate. However, and this may be controversial, but I don't think he wrote Jason Todd out of character at all. For as fearsome, intimidating, and awesome as Red Hood is. Jason is a character who is absolutely driven by his emotions. Why do you think he donned the role of Red Hood? As a response to his anger towards The Joker for killing him, and towards Bruce for not taking action against The Joker and for seemingly replacing him so quickly after he died. Jason didn't care about being the murderous Robin Hood or for being the bloody hammer of justice against N*zi's and P*d*ph*les. He only cared originally about making The Joker and Bruce pay. It wasn't until he trained under the best assassins in the world and realized most of them were horrific criminals who trafficked children and were p*dos that Talia began to realize that the teachers that she sent Jason to train under started dying horrific and painful deaths.

The entire story of the Cheer story in Batman Urban Legends was started because it finally forced some consequences upon Jason. Tyler, aka Blue Hood's father was a drug dealer who gave his supply to his wife and kids. And when Tyler's father admitted he gave the drugs to Tyler, it immediately made him fall within the self-imposed philosophical kill-list of Jason Todd. And Jason, well, he proceeds to kill Tyler's father. When this happens, Jason is in shock. Tyler's dad fit the bill to easily and justifiably be killed by Jason. We've never seen Jason having to deal with the consequences of being a murderous vigilante on a micro-level. When Jason realizes what he's done in that he's murdered Tyler's dad, he's shocked. He tells Babs the truth. He does a rational thing because he's in shock. He doesn't know what to do, he never has had to face the consequences of his actions as Red Hood and now the gravity of befriending a child as a vigilante hero who kills people just set in when he killed the father of the same child he was just introduced to.

(Oh here's a little aside because it had to be said, Jason would not have been a good father or a good mentor to Tyler and absolutely should not have been his new Robin. Jason is a man who is in his early 20's (not saying men in their early 20's can't be good fathers at all) who is a brutal serial killer using the guise of a vigilante anti-hero to let him escape most of the law. the complications of having the man who murdered your father adopt you and make you his sidekick are way too numerous for me to explain in a long-winded already heavy Tumblr essay post. There's a reason why we don't advocate for a story where Joe Chill adopted Bruce Wayne or one where Tony Zucco took in Dick Grayson.)

The next biggest argument is that they feel that Jason is giving up his guns as a means to just be invited back into the Bat-Family. To which I will tell anyone who has that argument to go actually read Urban Legends. Already have and still have that argument? Please re-read it. Don't want to? That's okay, I will paste the images from the comic where Jason specifically says that he doesn't want to give up his weapons for Bruce and his real reasoning down below since the comic isn't exactly readily accessible.

Jason gave up the guns because he felt the gravity of what he had done and knows how it'll effect Tyler. Thankfully his mom is alive and in recovery. But Tyler doesn't have a father anymore. And Jason killed Tyler's father. It may have been in accordance to Jason's philosophy, but it was a case where it blurred the lines. Jason Todd isn't a black and white character, just very dark gray. He doesn't kill aimlessly like the Joker. If you are on Jason's list you probably have done something pretty horrific, and also just in general, being in his way or being a threat to him. Mind you, in early days of Red Hood and the Outlaws (Image below) Jason almost killed 10 innocent civilians in a town in Colorado all because they saw him kill a monster. That being said, Jason isn't aimless in his kills.

(Also can we just take a moment to appreciate Kenneth Rocafort's art? DC Comics said we need to rehabilitate Jason Todd's image and Kenneth Rocafort said hold my beer: It's so SO GOOD)

That being said, the key emphasis in the story of Cheer asides from trying to introduce Jason Todd back into the Bat Family and give an actual purpose for him being there, other than him just kind of being there ala Bowser every time he shows up for Go Kart racing, Tennis, Golf, Soccer, and the Olympic games when Mario invites him, is that Jason and Bruce ultimately both want the same thing. Jason wants to be welcomed back into the family and to be loved and appreciated. Bruce want's Jason back as his son and wants to love and protect Jason. Both of these visions are shown in the last chapter of Cheer while under the effect of the Cheer Gas. It's ultimately this love and appreciation they both have for each other that helps them overcome their challenge and win.

Jason Todd is a character who, just like Bruce, has been through so much pain and so much hate in his life. The two are meant to parallel each other. While Bruce chose to see the best in everyone, giving every rogue in his gallery the option to be helped and give them a second chance, hence why he never kills, Jason has a similar view on wanting to protect the public, but he understands that some crimes are so heinous they cannot be forgiven, or that some habitual criminals are due to stay habitual criminals, and need to be put down. But at the end of the day, the two of them both try to protect people in their own ways.

I am aware that through the writings of various DC Comics authors such as Scott Lobdell and Judd Winick, the two have had a very tumultuous relationship. And rightfully so, I am by no means saying that Scott Lobdell writing an arc where Bruce literally beats Jason to within an inch of his life in Red Hood and the Outlaws, nor Judd Winick's interpretation of Under the Red Hood where Bruce throws the Batarang at Jason's neck, slicing his throat and leaving him ambiguously for dead at the end of the comic is appropriate considering DC Comics seems to be trying everything they can to integrate Jason back into the family. That being said, a lot of these writings have shaped the narrative of Jason and Bruce's relationship and have an integral effect on the way the fandom views the two. It doesn't help that Zdarsky acknowledged Lobdell's life-beating of Jason by Bruce at the very end of Cheer by having Bruce give Jason his old outfit back as a means of mending the fence between the two of them. That does complicate a lot of things in terms of how they are viewed by the fandom and helps to cause an even greater divide between the two.

Regardless, I want to emphasize the fact that Jason Todd is a part of the family of his own accord. Yes, he's quite snarky and deadpan in almost every encounter. However, Jason is absolutely a part of the family and has been for a while of his own will. There's a great moment in Detective Comics that emphasizes this. Jason cares about his family because it is his found family. Yes, they may be warry about him and use him as a punching back and/or heckle him. At the end of the day, we're debating the family dynamics of a fictional playboy billionaire vigilante whose kleptomania took the form of adopting troubled children and turning them into vigilante heroes. Jason Todd wants a family that will love and support him. This is a key definition of his character at its most basic. This was proven during the events of Cheer and is being reenforced by DC Comics every time they get the opportunity to do so.

Now, none of this is to say that I hate Judd Winick. I do not, I don't like the fact that in all of his writings of Jason, he just writes him as a dangerous psychopath, and Winick himself admits to seeing Jason as nothing much more than a psychopath. Yet Winick is the one who the majority of the fandom clings to as the one true good writer of Jason Todd because 'Jason was competent, dangerous, smart' Listen, friends, Jason is all of that and I will never deny it. However, what I love about Jason isn't that he's dangerously smart of that writers either write him as angsty angry Tumblr sexyman bait or that they write him as an infantile man child with a gun. There's a large contention of this fandom that has an obsession with Jason Todd being this vigilante gunman who is hot and sexy and while I definitely get the appeal. It is very creepy and downright disturbing that all of you hyperfixate on his use of guns and ability to be a murderer. It is creepy and I'm not necessarily here for it.

What I love about Jason Todd is that despite all of the pain, all of the heartache, all of the betrayal, and bullying, and death, and anguish. Jason Todd is one of the most loving and supportive characters in all of DC Comics. Jason has been through so much in his life, but he still chooses to love. He still chooses to see the bright side in people. Yes, he takes a utilitarian approach and chooses to kill certain villains, but at the end of the day he wants to see a better world, and he wants to be loved. It takes so much courage and so much heart to learn to love again after one has been abused or traumatized. I would not blame Jason at all if he said fuck it and just went full solo and vigilante evil. He has every right to, but he still chooses to be with the Bat Family of his own accord. That's something that I see a lot of in myself. I have been through a lot of trauma and yet I try to be a better person myself in any way that I can. It is extremely admirable of Jason to allow love back into his heart when he really doesn't need to. He kills and he protects because he has this love of society. It may have been shaped by anger and hatred, but Jason has found his place amongst people who love him and value him. I think Ducra, from Red Hood and the Outlaws put it best in the image given below.

To end this tangent, I love Jason Todd and all of his sexy dangerousness, but it's far more than that. As much as Jason may be dangerous and snarky, he loves his family without a shadow of a doubt. I look up to Jason Todd because despite all of his pain and all of his trauma, he still choses to love. Jason Todd is a character who is someone I love because despite all of his flaws and having a very toxic fandom, he still serves as a character filled with so much heart and so much passion. I wish more writers would understand that. But for now I will live with what I have. Even though the fandom may be vocal about it's hatred for his characterization, I choose to love Jason regardless because he is a character who chooses love and acceptance regardless of his pain. Jason Todd is by no means a good person in any sense of the word. He has easily killed upwards of 100 people by now. He is a character who is flawed and complex but ultimately is one who powers forwards and finds love and heart in a place from so much pain and anguish. That is what I love about Jason Todd. After all, to quote a famous undead robot superhero, "What is grief, if not love persevering?" Jason Todd chooses to love despite all of the trauma and pain and grief. Yes, he is hardened in his exterior, but inside there is a man with a lot of love to give and someone who deserves the world in my eyes.

[trust-and-jump]

masks this, masks that... i don't get this fandom, to be honest... I just like Batman things... I saw a kid this summer... the kid with fucking. t-shirt. Batman t-shirt. I almost tried to buy it from him before I realised he's tiny and I can wear this size. It was literally the first time I reqlly wanted merch, in my whole life 😭 like a magpie seeing a shiny thing, I swear.

But eh.

Different masks work differently. Not every mask is a mask. And everyone thinks that they say "mask" and people automatically know with their definition of the word. But it's not true... every time I start to discussing some word like that - a word that "well there cannot be other definition than that!!! surely we're talking about the same thing" - we suddenly find out that we mean completely different things.

So every take is different. And very confusing. And yes, sometimes also infuriating, I totally get it, bc I have things I'm pissed about, too (for example, one of the thousands of Jason Todd interpretations. or the fact that, it appears, NOBODY READ THE BATMAN CHRONICLES #8, OR AT LEAST DIDN'T GET THE SAME IMPRESSION AS ME😭😭😭😭😭. Like, seriously, come one!!! 😭 or that fandom and someone-someone prefers Jason Todd that is happy blasting guns every second of his living. and thinks it's the only or the main thing with his, uh, style. or some of the major aspects of Tim Drake, I hate Red Robin, I hate that people don't pay attention at some good stories and make popular the controversial ones and even doing so they often refuse to actually read it and understand it and just spreading hatred bc "IT'S BAD!1!1!1! ALSO THE AUTHOR IS——" *sigh.* ignore me; I'm a hypocrit, I'm just like everyone else :D).

I guess I wanted to say that very often we don't fully understand the opinion of a separate person. Even if we think we do. And also we often tend to think that a whole group of similar opinions is just the one opinion shared by many people. Which is never, ever true. Even when we think it is.

I like the Bruce Wayne thing more, too. More, than "Batman is who he really is". Buuuuut once we dig deeper, we might find out that, by this statement, everyone is saying their own thing. Or trying to say, because some people can't talk with their own words and take the other people's phrasing, word choice, someone's articulation of an idea, and then some of them even start to think that THIS is what they meant and that now everyone knows what it actually is.

eh.

Maybe I want to try and make you less angry about it.. Or maybe I just want to make everyone more open-minded about comics... (which is impossible but,,,,,, a girl can dream) most pple are so stiff about Batman comics (from my experience, mostly on tumblr. others are not... ah. I don't know how to say it, but I'm genuinely curious why. I wonder why. It's definitely nice to argue or get mad over fictional characters sometimes; everyone does that. I get it. But batman tumblr fans... It's something else. So strange to me!).

Difference between canon writers and fan writers is that canon writers work in team. In my opinion. And when fan writers work in team, there is no real difference to me. Thus, it's funny to see people hating both some fanon takes and canon takes. but pretty often hating someone's fanwork is considered rude, and "who the hell you think you are?!!!". the question: "why is it different from hating canon?" the answer: "because people BUY comics!" but, er, most people read comics for free. and most of the people that get offended by EVERYTHING in comics, for some reason, didn't read any for real or read it for free. Why, exactly, is it more often that people who read for free or don't read at all (or read very little and think they are experts on every comic ever released now) are so eager to fight the invisible enemy? I really don't know. By the way, I'm not talking about you, obviously, it's just my confusion about fandom. 🤔🤔🤔

Maybe I don't understand something fundamental about human mentality...

Anyways, sorry for a VERY meaningless post without a real message, it's just that you said in some post that "talk to me" and I take it as a permission to have a pointless conversation with you lol. Feel free to ignore.

[ID: A single panel from an old Batman comic, depicting Batman escorting a man dressed like him away from the viewer. Batman is saying, “Let’s go, son. Let’s get you some help.” Around them are several narrative boxes, in two different colors. The green boxes, cumulatively, read: “But the avenger within the Batman co-exists with the compassionate man. Batman is indeed two people… and both are Bruce Wayne.” The single yellow box reads simply: “The End.” /ID]

Excuse me as I just leave this here…

[oh-mother-of-darkness]

Timeline: Batman

google doc / ao3

This is my best attempt at a post-crisis timeline based on age-- specifically Bruce’s age every time he adopted and/or met one of his children. 

List of events:

Bruce’s parents die

Bruce becomes Batman

Dick’s parents die

Dick becomes Robin

Jason becomes Robin and is adopted

Jason dies

Tim becomes Robin

Cass appears

Dick is adopted

Tim is adopted

Cass is adopted

Damian becomes Robin

I’ll be citing my work by issue and panel. This isn’t my most organized work, and I don’t know how well tumblr will let me translate it, so I do recommend the google doc. I imagine the image quality here won’t be great. 

Notes:

This is a post-crisis timeline (1986-2011). I’ll be referencing a few pre-crisis panels, but I won’t be touching the New 52 or anything after it. That’s a different game of ball with its own, extremely bad, timeline.

Crisis on Infinite Earths is a 1985-1986 series that rebooted the DC timeline and altered some backstories, including Jason’s. Pre-crisis, his backstory was almost identical to Dick’s. Post-crisis, he changed to the “steal the wheels off the Batmobile” origin. Anything written before 1986 is a weak source for my purposes. 

My original question centered around Bruce’s age through the process of meeting and acquiring his children. In this timeline, those children are (1) Dick Grayson, (2) Jason Todd, (3) Cassandra Cain, (4) Tim Drake, and (5) Damian Wayne. I was envisioning an interview where the kids explain their family timeline to outsiders. I did not anticipate the project taking this long. 

We’re talking about 72 years of content here, which means decades of contradiction, conflation, and rewrites. I’m pretty satisfied with my work product, but please understand that there are no perfect answers. I’m going to cite my sources, and I’ll do my best to explain why I chose those sources specifically, but it’s pretty likely that for every panel I pull, there will be others with different numbers. We’re all going to have to live with that. 

Event timeline

*I’m defining Jason’s age by the time elapsed since his birth, but you could make an argument for using time he has been alive, which is, of course, different. That’s why the parentheses are there. 

Age differences

As Robin

----------

Bruce’s parents die

Pretty consistently, Bruce is written as eight years old the night his parents died. 

Detective Comics #0 (1994)

This is a zero issue where Bruce thinks back on his origin story. It was written long after Crisis on Infinite Earths (1986), and I tend to give a lot of weight to ages written in summaries of past plot lines, my reasoning being that it’s easier to be consistent in one issue than it is to be consistent through a month to month story. 

Bruce first appeared as an adult in Detective Comics #27 (1939), and the Waynes were already dead at that point, so flashbacks are the only available material anyway. 

Gotham Knights #6 (2000)

The text is Hugo Strange talking about Bruce, and the image is Tim and Dick playing at Wayne Enterprises. 

I’ll take a second here to note that I did find at least one alternate age for Bruce— in Superman/Batman Secret Files & Origins (2003), Bruce was 10 when his parents died. I’m disregarding that in favor of the stronger 8 year old timeline, especially in light of Batman #404 (1987).

Batman #404 is the beginning of Batman: Year One, which was explicitly written to clarify the Batman timeline post-crisis, and it’s the basis of most of my calculations for Bruce and Dick’s ages.

----------

Bruce becomes Batman

According to Year One, Bruce was 26 years old when he became Batman. I’m using his age at his parents’ deaths, his age when he returned to Gotham, and his 18 year timeline.

Batman #404 puts Bruce at age 25 when he returned to Gotham in January. 

Batman #404 (1987)

Bruce gives his dramatic, “Yes, Father, I will become a bat,” line in March. In the same scene, he says that it has been 18 years since his parents’ deaths. Knowing that they died when Bruce was eight, that puts Bruce at 26 years old the day he became Batman, which makes sense considering Bruce’s birthday is usually set at February 19th. 

He was 25 in January, turned 26 in February, and became Batman at 26, 18 years after his parents’ death. 

Batman #404 (1987)

Post-crisis, DC built timelines off the “Year” model. Year One is Batman’s beginning, and events after that are measured by how far away they are from the year Bruce became Batman. I’ll be using the Year model for Dick’s life events next. 

----------

Dick’s parents die

The Graysons died in Year Two. Using the Year Model, Dick was 12 when his parents died, and Bruce was 37. 

Year timelines appear a fair amount, especially in issues titled “Secret Files & Origins.” I pulled this bit from Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997) because it was the easiest to screenshot. 

Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997)

Year Two would place Bruce at 27 years old. I’m calculating Dick’s age backwards, based on him being 13 years old during Year Three. 

Batman Secret Files & Origins (1997) 

----------

Dick becomes Robin

Dick became Robin in Year Three, when he was 13 years old and Bruce was 28. I’m using two different issues to calculate the number. 

Batman #441 (1989)

Batman #441 is from Tim’s introduction story. It takes place “months” after Jason’s death. We’ll get to that part. In Batman #441, Tim asked Dick to be Robin again in order to help Bruce, who was visibly unstable after Jason’s death. Dick says that he can’t go back to being Robin, just like he can’t go back to being 13 years old. The strong implication there is that Dick became Robin at 13, which corresponds to Dick’s statements in Batman #416 (1988). 

In Batman #416, Dick as Nightwing returns to confront Bruce about Jason becoming Robin. He says that he was Robin for six years, and he stopped being Robin at 19.

Batman #416 (1988)

If Dick stopped being Robin at 19, after 6 years, that would put him at 13 when he debuted as Robin, the same number from Batman #441 (1989).

Dick was 13 during Year Three, so 12 during Year Two, the year his parents died. Those numbers answer the first bit of my original question. I wanted to know how old Dick and Bruce were when Dick became his child. It’s a bit more of a complicated question for Dick, since he was originally Bruce’s ward, then adopted as an adult. 

Based on the timeline so far, Dick became Bruce’s ward at 12 years old, while Bruce was 27.  

----------

Jason becomes Robin and is adopted

As previously discussed (see Notes), Jason’s timeline is complicated by Crisis on Infinite Earths (1985-1986). Pre-crisis, Jason first appeared in Batman #336 (1983) as a former circus acrobat very similar to Dick.

Jason’s origin story reboots at Batman #408 (1987), which describes the switch-off between Dick and Jason. I’m building a lot of my timeline off of that issue. At the beginning, Dick gets shot by the Joker, and as Bruce carries him away, the media ask if Robin is dead. Dick isn’t dead, but back at the manor, Bruce decides to retire Robin as a role, based on the idea that crimefighting is too dangerous for a child. 

Batman #408 (1987)

This version is more or less from Bruce’s point of view, but there’s a contrasting version from Dick’s point of view later, in Batman #416 (1987). That one has a significantly different tone, and I already cited it once (page 13) because Dick talks about his age and the amount of time he was Robin.  

Batman #408 (1987)

The second part of the issue takes place “weeks” later. Bruce goes to Crime Alley to mourn his parents on the anniversary of their death. He comes back to find that somebody stole the wheels off the Batmobile. The somebody was Jason, and by the end of Batman #409 (1987), Bruce is calling Jason “Robin.”

Batman #408 (1987) seems to divide Dick’s departure and Jason’s introduction by only “weeks,” in the post-crisis reboot. Dick’s version of the story in Batman #416 (1987) is much less charitable to Bruce— instead of ending on a panel of Bruce smiling, it shows the aftermath of Dick in tears as Bruce walks away. Dick goes on to describe leaving the house, going to college for a semester, then dropping out. According to Dick, Bruce didn’t even say goodbye. 

Batman #416 (1987)

I don’t think the stories are contradictory; they’re just different experiences of the same events, separated by only eight issues. Dick tells us that he was 19 when he left Wayne Manor, and Bruce chooses his new Robin “weeks” later. 

As a summary, we know that Bruce’s parents died when he was eight, and that 18 years passed before he became Batman at 26. One year later, Dick’s parents died while Bruce was 27. One year after that, Dick became Robin at the age of 13. From those facts, Bruce is 15 years older than Dick. 

All of my calculations of Bruce’s age are based off of the age gap between him and Dick. Dick was 19 when Jason became Robin, so we know that at that time, Bruce was 34. We also know that at that time, Jason was 12. 

I can’t show a source for that number because it appears on the letter page of Batman #408 (1987), Jason’s introduction.

Even after a significant amount of investigation, I can’t find a copy of the letter page, but it’s cited by enough secondary sources for me to be comfortable using it. That issue is specifically written to show Jason’s origin, so it makes sense that it would contain Jason’s age at inception, even if the number wasn’t in the actual exposition. 

From Jason being 12, we can establish a seven-year age gap between Jason and Dick, who was 19 at the time. Now we know Bruce, Dick, and Jason’s ages, and the age differences between them.

Back to my original question— when did Bruce acquire Jason? We know that Bruce was 34 when Jason became his ward, and Jason was 12. The next question, however, is when did Bruce adopt Jason? On this one, I’m making an educated guess. 

Again we have to differentiate between pre-crisis and post-crisis timelines. Pre-crisis, there’s a full storyline about the fact that Bruce did not adopt Jason, although not for lack of trying. In Batman #374 (1984), the Child Welfare Bureau investigates Bruce when it notices that Bruce has not adopted Jason— and is not even, in fact, his legal guardian. 

Batman #374 (1984)

The rest of the storyline is about Jason’s custody. A villain named Natalia Knight (Nocturna) adopts Jason in an attempt to get Bruce to marry her in order to become Jason’s father. In the court scene in Batman #377 (1984), Bruce says that he filed to adopt Jason sometime beforehand, although it’s unclear to me whether he means he filed between those issues or the CWB documents were incomplete.

Natalia does adopt Jason in Batman #378 (1984), and he briefly lives with her before returning to Wayne Manor in Batman #381 (1985), directly before the reboot. 

I’m including all of that for two reasons: first, I do think it’s important to clarify both this version and the post-crisis version I’m about to address. Second, I spent years under the impression that Bruce adopted Jason pre-crisis because of one, well-known scene. 

Batman #377 (1984)

Batman #378 (1984)

Batman #381 (1985)

Donna Troy gets married in Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985). At the wedding, Bruce and Dick have a conversation about Jason and about their own relationship. A few of those panels get spread around because they contain what I would consider a defining moment between Dick and Bruce. 

I’m certainly not complaining about the amount of times I’ve seen the wedding conversation, but I think that, in regards to Jason, seeing just those panels has created a misconception.

Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985)

Without context, it looks, at least to me, like Dick is saying that Bruce has adopted Jason pre-crisis, which isn’t true. This issue takes place between the Natalia adoption in Batman #378 (1984) and Jason’s return to the manor in Batman #381 (1985), and the panels directly before the exchange make that clear. I just didn’t see those panels until I looked through the whole issue for this project. 

I’m reasonably certain that in the past, I publicly cited this issue as evidence of Jason’s adoption, and I was wrong about that. [Note: As it turns out, I was only partially wrong. See section Correction.]

Tales of the Teen Titans #50 (1985)

As we see, the wedding conversation is in the context of the Natalia adoption. With that cleared up, and with the pre-crisis timeline filled out, let’s move to post-crisis. 

In my brief read-through of Batman #404-427 (1987-1988), I didn’t find any direct references to Jason’s status. Those issues begin at the reboot and end at Jason’s death. However, Dick and Jason’s statements after the fact do tell us that post-crisis, Bruce did adopt Jason. 

In Batman #436 (1989), Dick returns to the manor in the direct aftermath of Jason’s death, and while he is there, he sees that Bruce removed any trace of Jason from the house. There aren’t any trophies in the Batcave, and there aren’t any pictures of Jason on the nightstand displaying Bruce’s family photos. 

Dick says that Jason was Bruce’s son.

Batman #436 (1989)

I think it’s fair to ask whether Dick is being literal here, because even if Bruce hadn’t legally adopted Jason, it would still be more than appropriate to call them father and son. I’m not going to place my opinion solely on this kind of statement, even if it does appear pretty regularly from 1988 to the end of the timeline.

Green Arrow/Black Canary #4 (2007)

We get a more definite answer later, during Tim’s first appearance. In Tim’s origin story, he deduces Batman and Robin’s secret identities after he sees footage of Robin doing a type of flip that only the Flying Graysons could do. Tim was at the circus the night Dick’s parents died, so he saw Dick do the flip there, then saw Dick become an orphan. 

Because Tim knew that Dick was the first Robin, he correctly identified Bruce as Batman and Jason as the second Robin. He tells Dick all of this in Batman #441 (1989).

Batman #441 (1989)

Tim does specifically use the word “adopts” here, and that’s good enough for me. The last part is guesswork— I don’t know for certain how old Jason and Bruce were when the adoption took place, but I’m electing to say Jason was 12, the same age as he was when he became Robin. 

I picked that number both out of convenience and because Tim seems to be putting Jason’s adoption and the second Robin’s appearance at around the same time. With that in mind, I think that Jason was 12 years old both when he became Robin and when Bruce adopted him. Using the age gap we already established, that would put Bruce at age 34. 

Circling back to my original question, Dick became Bruce’s ward when Dick was 12 and Bruce was 27. Jason became Bruce’s ward, then adoptive son when Jason was 12 and Bruce was 34. 

At this point in the timeline, Bruce is 34 with one former ward and one adopted son. 

----------

Correction 

A few days after I wrote my section about Jason’s appearance and adoption, I realized that I was missing a panel citation in my discussion of Jason’s death. The panel is from New Titan #55 (1989), and you’ll see me cite it when I talk about Jason’s death certificate. 

New Titans #55 (1989) is the issue where Dick, who is with the Teen Titans,  finds out about Jason’s death. While I was combing through the issue for the panels I wanted, I reread a scene I had completely forgotten about. Dick goes back to the manor to speak to Bruce, and it doesn’t go well.

New Titans #55 (1989)

I have three comments here. First, I do think this scene is inconsistent with the simultaneous story in the Batman title. In this version, Dick and Bruce have a very aggressive confrontation, but in Batman #436 (1989), Dick appears to be returning to the manor for the first time since Jason died, and there isn’t any reference to a prior fight. 

Putting that aside, Bruce does explicitly say that he adopted Jason, and that’s more, stronger verification of a post-crisis adoption. Lastly, it’s pretty clear that Bruce and Dick are talking about the wedding scene. 

I already explained that the wedding scene is pre-crisis, and in the original text, that conversation is about Bruce wanting to, but not being able to, adopt Jason. New Titans #55 (1989) carries the wedding scene into post-crisis canon, changing the language in the process. In this version, Bruce has adopted Jason. 

I was still wrong about the wedding scene because in the past, I used it as evidence of a pre-crisis adoption. It isn’t pre-crisis evidence, but it is, in a roundabout way, evidence of the post-crisis adoption. I wanted to clear that up before I move on to Jason’s death. 

----------

Jason dies

Jason’s death is by far the shakiest point on my timeline, but I’ve chosen to put him at 15 the day he died in Batman #427 (1988). 

I think it’s safe to say that Jason was either 14 or 15 when he died, and my basic conclusion is that running numbers doesn’t give me a definite answer. There’s a cop-out option based on an extraordinarily poor source, and I’m taking the cop-out. 

The general consensus seems to be that Jason was 15 at his death, citation to Jason’s death certificate. Jason’s death certificate appears in two different places, and I think most folks conflate the two. 

To my knowledge, the only copy of Jason’s death certificate in full appears in The Batman Files (2011), where it does list Jason’s age as 15. 

The Batman Files (2011)

Now there is a partial copy in Batman Annual #25 (2006), which I would argue is a very reliable reference when it comes to Jason. That issue is part of the Under the Red Hood story, the one where Jason returns to Gotham for the first time after his resurrection. In fact, the specific annual issue has a timeline for Jason’s events counting forward from his death. 

Here’s the problem: the issue doesn’t say his age at death. The partial copy of his death certificate looks like this. 

Batman Annual #25 (2006) 

I think that when most folks remember a death certificate, they think of this one, the one from a very important issue, instead of The Batman Files (2011) which, as noted, is a very bad source. 

I have three issues with The Batman Files (2011): the format, the publishing date, and the other information on the certificate. First, The Batman Files (2011) isn’t a comic book at all. It’s a commemorative book published in collaboration with DC in 2011. Now I don’t think that fact completely removes the book as a source, but it certainly damages its value as one. 

My problem with that date, 2011, is that it’s the year the New 52 premiered. I called it a commemorative book because it’s meant to be a look back at a fully complete timeline, a kind of “this is us saying goodbye” product. The date and format alone make me hesitant to cite the certificate, but on top of that, the certificate is inconsistent with prior canon. 

I am intimately familiar with retcons and conflicting numbers in the DC timeline. I made a point at the beginning of this paper to tell you that although this is my best attempt to make a cohesive timeline, assuming that I can carve out a cohesive timeline is fundamentally flawed. 

I’m not saying that a single contradictory number is enough to make me disregard a source. I am saying that in this particular conversation about an already suspect source, I’m going to take inconsistency into account. 

In New Titans #55 (1989), the issue from Corrections, Dick finds out about Jason’s death because a team member notices Jason’s status is set at “unknown.” Dick uses Bruce’s passcode to access restricted information, and he and the Titans see that Jason’s real status is “deceased.” 

The death certificate in The Batman Files (2011) marks Jason’s height at 4’6 and his age at 15. In contrast, Dick’s scene puts Jason at 5’4, and its only reference to Jason’s age is a very relatable question from Donna. “How old was he, anyway?”

New Titans #55 (1989)

There’s a substantial difference between the two heights, and I think it’s also worth noting that for a 15 year old American male, 4’6 is in the 0.1 height percentile. In the past, I and many others have tried to justify that height along the lines of Jason being malnourished or similarly afflicted. Personally, I liked the parallel between this height for Jason and Damian’s height at his own death in 2013, and I know I’ve talked about that in the past.

I’m not criticizing anyone for using the 4’6 number, but I do think the unlikelihood of a 15 year old that size is worth bringing up. 

In summary, The Batman Files (2011) is so bad of a source that I’m only willing to use it as a last resort. Unfortunately, it’s time for a last resort. 

I mentioned a timeline in Batman Annual #25 (2006) that counts forward from Jason’s death. I’m not going to use image cites here because they’re just isolated text boxes labeled either “six months later” or “one year later.”

Using that timeline, we know that Jason’s resurrection took place six months after his death. He spent one year in a coma, then one year on the street, then one year with the League of Assassins. Finally, he spent a nebulous time training before he returned to Gotham. 

We know that Jason was gone for a minimum of three and a half years, then whatever time “training” includes. Personally, I’m applying my best attempt at comic logic to say he was missing for somewhere between three and four years. 

To understand the next bit, I need to point out that from Jason’s death on, I’m going to be using Tim’s age to track time in the same way I’ve been using Dick’s so far. 

As a reminder, I know what age Bruce was when Dick became Robin (28), and I know Dick’s age at the same point (13), so I know there’s a 15 year age difference. As I track Dick’s age through the timeline, I add 15 to get Bruce’s. 

In the same way, I know what age Dick was when Jason became Robin (19), and I know Jason’s age at the same point (12), so I know there’s a 7 year age difference. I can use that number ongoing. 

I know that Tim was 13 when he made his first appearance as Robin, and I’ll get into that in the next section. After that, I’m placing Dick, Tim, and Cass’s adoptions based on Tim’s age. 

To do that, I need to know how much older Dick is than Tim, and I can only get that by knowing Jason’s age at his death, sort of. 

How long was Jason Robin? If I had that information, I could establish Jason’s age by counting up from 12, the age when he became Robin, then establish Tim’s age from there.  

I can’t really answer that question. There is a panel from Batman #436 where Dick, apparently in his first time at the manor since Jason’s death says the following. 

Batman #436 (1989)

My instinctual interpretation is it’s been two years since he stopped being Robin at 19, making Dick 21 and Jason 14. In my opinion, that’s straightforward plain language, but it seems like I’m in the minority on that one, and most folks read it as Dick saying it’s been two years since he was last at the manor. We know from Batman #416 (1988) that Dick’s last visit to the manor was 18 months after Dick left home. 

Batman #136 (1988)

I think the most honest thing to say is that Jason was Robin for an indeterminate amount of time that was somewhere between two and three years. I don’t know which number is closer. I also, if you remember, think that Jason was gone from Gotham for somewhere between three and four years, but I don’t know where in that range the real number is. 

Here’s why absolutely nothing I’ve said in the past seven pages matters: I need to build my timeline based on the age gap between Jason and Tim. 

I don’t know how old Tim was when Jason died. 

I know how old Tim was at his first appearance as Robin, and that’s a different number. 

We’ll finish this conversation in a moment.

----------

Tim becomes Robin

We begin, thankfully, with a straightforward fact. Tim’s first storyline spans Batman #440-442 (1989). The arc is called A Lonely Place of Dying, and we already talked about it. Tim, having watched Batman and Robin from the shadows for years, comes forwards in the aftermath of Jason’s death in an attempt to convince Dick to become Robin for a second time.

Batman #441 (1989)

We know that Tim was 13 years old at the time, but I do need to clarify exactly what time that was— an indeterminate amount of time after Jason’s death. 

The word that pops up a couple of time in Tim’s first arc is “months,” from Tim and Two-Face. How many months? Who’s to say. 

Batman #442 (1989)

So, from the top. We know that Bruce was eight when his parents died, 26 when he became Batman, 27 when he met Dick, 28 when Dick became Robin, and 34 when he met Jason.

Dick was 12 when he met Bruce, 13 when he became Robin, 19 when he left home and Jason became Robin. 

Jason was 12 when he became Robin.

Bruce is 15 years older than Dick. Bruce is 22 years older than Jason. 

Dick is 7 years older than Jason.

How long was Jason Robin? Unknown, but somewhere between two and three years. At that point, he died. “Months” after that, Tim was 13. 

Here, we need to acknowledge that Jason could have been either 14 or 15 at his death, and at the same time, Tim was either 12 or 13. We need to know how far they are apart to calculate Tim’s age in relation to Jason, Dick, and Bruce— ongoing, we will always know exactly how old Tim is, so (if we know how far apart Jason and Tim are) we will always know Bruce, Dick, and Jason’s age from there. 

How much older than Tim is Jason? Somewhere between one and three years, I guess, but I can’t really go beyond a well-researched guess. In my opinion, there isn’t a straightforward answer for this one.

Having presented my facts, here is my conclusion. Jason was 15 when he died. At the same time, Tim was 13. They are two years apart. 

Why? To begin, I’m more comfortable using the number we already have for Tim, 13, than I am dropping him to 12 on the mere possibility that he could have been 12. 

Second, even though The Batman Files (2011) is a terrible source, it does at least sort of indicate that the official DC position is a Jason who was 15 years old at his death. 

Third, visually speaking, Jason looks closer to 15 than 14 at his death. Is that good evidence? No, absolutely not. Comic book art is definitionally variable, but I am going to pull a few panels for you to look over. 

Batman #427 (1988)

Finally, I feel that Jason and Tim are, in later works, treated as if they are different ages. I’m not going to go into much detail on that one because it is purely a personal reaction, but I would refer to Teen Titans #29 (2005) as an example. That issue has Jason and Tim’s first meeting, after Jason comes to the tower specifically to attack Tim. 

Teen Titans #27 (2005)

Another well-known issue to check out is Teen Titans #47 (2007).

My basic position is that there are so many ways, all uncertain, to slice Jason and Tim’s ages that I can take my pick. I chose the ones that most closely mirror later canon, fall most squarely into the possible range, and feel the most intuitively right. 

They also have the benefit of simplicity, which was very much a factor. 

Don’t agree with me? Fair enough. I think I’ve given you enough information to make an educated judgment, and I’ve also gone ahead and made a timeline in the alternative. In this one, Jason was 14 at death, and he and Tim are only one year apart. 

----------

In the Alternative

----------

Cass appears

Having progressed beyond Jason and Tim’s age gap, we reenter simple canon. I hope you’re as pleased as I am. 

Cass was 17 years old at her first appearance, which we can establish easily based on two different issues. Cass first appears in Batman #567 (1999), during an arc called No Man’s Land. At the time, she is working for Barbara Gordon in the aftermath of an earthquake that destroyed most of Gotham. We learn Cass’s backstory through that issue. 

Cass’s biological father is David Cain, a villain, who raised Cass in isolation, never exposing her to a verbal language or allowing any kind of socialization. By comic book logic, her upbringing gave her a near-superhuman ability to understand and anticipate physical actions, as those actions are her only form of communication. 

Cain trained her as a child assassin, then took her to her first kill. Cass murdered a man and experienced, through his body language, the pain he felt at his death. Immediately afterward, she ran away from her father.

Batgirl #62 (2005)

We know that Cass was eight years old when she killed and ran. We also know that her first appearance in Gotham was nine years after she ran, thanks to Barbara Gordon’s file. 

Batgirl #1 (2000)

Simple enough. She was 17. How old was everybody else? We find out from Tim’s timeline. 

This next bit will come up a few times. We know that Tim was 15 from at least 1993 to 2003, established by three different issues. We know from Detective Comics #668 (1993) that Tim was 15 during Knightquest, the arc where Jean-Paul Valley was briefly Batman. Barbara tells us in 2002 that Tim is still 15, and Tim turns 16 on-panel in 2003. 

In Knightquest, Tim gets his driver’s license early, at age 15, because Jack Drake is in a wheelchair. I suppose the wording here is ambiguous on a technicality, but I don’t think there’s any significant argument against Tim being 15; if he was only 14, the language would be different.  

Detective Comics #668 (1993)

Next, in Batgirl #24 (2002), Barbara says she’s “sending a 15 year old” as she reaches for Tim’s com line.

Batgirl #24 (2002)

We could stop here for Cassandra’s appearance, since that happened in 1999, between the 1993 issue and the 2002 reference. For completion’s sake, however, let’s note that Robin #116 (2003) is about Tim’s 16th birthday. He forgets about it, so his step-mother throws a surprise party. 

Robin #116 (2003)

Okay, so Tim was 15 when Cass appeared at age 17. That puts Bruce at 39, Dick at 24, and Jason at 17 if you’re counting by years elapsed since his birth. 

Bruce met his daughter when he was 39 and she was 17, in reference to my original question. Cass is 22 years younger than Bruce, seven years younger than Dick, the same age as Jason, and two years older than Tim. 

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Dick is adopted

This one, having already established Tim’s timeline, is very simple. Dick was adopted in Gotham Knights #17 (2001).

Gotham Knights #17 (2001)

Again, Tim was 15 from 1993 to 2003, and 2001 falls within that range. Tim was 15, which makes Dick 24 and Bruce 39. 

At this point in the timeline, Bruce, a 39 year old, has two adopted children, one of whom is deceased as far as Bruce is concerned. His adopted children are (17) and 24. He has already met two of his future children, Cass and Tim. 

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This is PART ONE. I’ll reblog Part Two onto this post when I wake up, which should be around the same time this posts.