#iliad book 5

[emmikay]

[katerinaaqu]

No one absolutely no one:

Athena and Diomedes in Iliad:

[sharkie-chaos]

I think the Iliad does a splendid job of showcasing the humanity in war. I mean this as a sense of people being people, there are no ‘good guys.’ It’s clear that everyone has a life, and everyone has something to lose. Before his death, Pandarus talks of his home, and the regrets he has about the horses, and breaking the truce. He clearly regrets what he did. Another scene is with Diomedes and Glaucus, where they both realize their families were once friendly with each other, and refuse to fight one another, with Diomedes even putting his spear down. Not to mention the scene of Hector playing with his son, where Astyanax gets scared by his father’s armor. The scene ends with Hector even hoping his son turns out to be more skilled than himself. Probably a little silly for me to point out something so obvious, but I needed to ramble about it (my friends and family are very tired of me talking about this book) ALSO DID YOU KNOW PRIAM APPARENTLY HAD 100 KIDS??? BECAUSE I DIDN’T.

[ex35life]

I love how in Book 5 of the Iliad, Athena basically tells Ares, "Look bro, let's sit this one out and let the mortals kill each other so we don't piss Dad off." And Ares just shrugs and follows her to chill on the beach and watch the war.

And that lasts for about .5 seconds before Athena gets involved again.

[lyculuscaelus]

How easy it was to blame all these misadventures the Achaeans suffered upon their homecoming on a man in revenge for his son.

Yes, we know what Palamedes did, and we know that he deserved it. We know that the disaster near Cape Caphereus did happen, and Nauplius was the one behind this. But we have not learned of anything else about the other part of Nauplius’s revenge from any sources earlier than pseudo-Apollodorus’s Epitome (and we know that the entire chapter 6 of Epitome is very likely tampered by Tzetzes already). Since, to be fair, Homer wasn’t the only one who neglected all this resettlement of Achaean heroes.

There was no mention of the name “Nauplius” in Proclus’s summary of the epic Nostoi, and the only chance for him to show up is in “the description of the storm around the Capherian rocks”. We know that Nauplius would make an appearance in the Nostoi through, again, pseudo-Apollodorus. But nothing more. The corruption of Argive wives did not happen in the Epic Cycle, and both the Nostoi and the Odyssey did not elaborate on any exile of any Achaean leader especially Diomedes.

And Aegialeia was still a steadfast wife of Diomedes in Homer’s epics. And Clytemnestra could still find her justice in her lament for Iphigeneia in Aeschylus’s and Euripides’s plays. Any role Nauplius could play in this would be redundant—prudent Aegialeia simply wouldn’t comply, and Clytemnestra wouldn’t need him to convince her.

So, why the attribution then? A likely explanation would be the attempt to connect the hero with those foundation myths in places outside the Mainland Greece like Magna Graecia. And what better way to get the hero there than exile? And what better way to exile a hero than the betrayal of their wife if they had one? (Well there are better ways but you know what I mean) The thing is, why did it have to be Nauplius? I mean, the tragedy at Cape Caphereus was infamous indeed. I could totally see people blaming Nauplius the Wrecker for more things than simply lighting a false beacon and throwing rocks. So now we have our avenger Nauplius traveling around Greece contriving the corruption of Argive wives and causing shipwreck for the returned fleet and in some versions even bringing false news to Anticleia which led to her suicide (again, not the version in the Odyssey)…Nauplius just seemed to be such a convenient device to connect these events.

But does that have to be the only case for their nostoi? I mean, Homer certainly did not include anything about this exile in his epics, and we could totally have our Nauplius simply causing shipwreck, without messing up with other heroes’ families. Is it tragic? Certainly. But in the meantime, it is cathartic. Heroes like Diomedes, Idomeneus, Philoctetes still get to stay in their homeland, even if it’s just in a few versions—one of them being Homer’s version.

[nerdrooikat]

drabbles about the deer imagery in The Secret History (specifically in relation 2 Camilla) because her becoming a deer/believing that she did stuck in my mind (although this post will mostly take Camilla and the other's recollection of events to be as they recount it – if i examine it in it's effect as an incorrect account, that would be in a separate post)

Obviously there's, on a meta level, an irony to it – Camilla and Charles are named to make fun of the Princess Diana scandal that was happening at the time, and so ironically Camilla transforms into an animal sacred to Diana.

There's also a parallel that I think could be interesting to make between Camilla and Taygete, who for anyone unfamiliar, was turned into a deer by Artemis to protect her from Zeus' sexual advances. Although I think that what happened in the Bacchae was concensual sexually, I think it could possible be indicative in Camilla's narrative role as the "wanted"/"desired" one within the greek class – by Charles, Henry, Richard (although he wasnt there) and even Francis, although he wants to be her more so than actually wanting her.

Additionally, outside of how it actually functions within the story, her transformation into a creature associated so closely with innocence, especially in relation to Diana/Artemis' virginity, might perhaps be tied to Richards view of her as this "pure" and "virginal" person – obviously we know this is far from the truth, and he himself learns this later, but I think it definitely ties into this flawed angelic idea of her he so covets.

I think this interpretation ties into the myth of Actaeon (in terms of "deer transformation myths") although its very interesting to me that they different at key points – Camilla, the "virginual" character, is the one transformed, rather than the sexual transgressor (Charles) or the one who introduces miasma (Henry). But, like Actaeon, she is pursued and hunted – which, another key point – Actaeon is pursued and killed by his own hunting dogs, and Charles returns from the ritual with a bite mark, perhaps tying him into the myth thurther?

[specialagentartemis]

Ares whining to daddy that Athena is Zeus’s favorite and it’s not faaaaair

it’s kind of true though, is the funny thing. Zeus to Ares like “you’re hateful to me because you are uncontrollable and cause such strife and violence!” then turns around to Athena and goes “that’s fine sweetie, you can trick the Trojans into breaking their truce and starting the bloodshed up again, you can ride beside Diomedes to guide his spear to stab Aphrodite and Ares, you can do whatever you want forever, I support you <3”

[epigonoi]

tfw your dad died when you were like four and you spent the next ten years of your life training to avenge him and when you do avenge him you just move on to the next war. and then the next. all you have known is war. and everyone wants you to be more like your father. he is a warning of all that you could become. you don't remember him. you are your father's son. you know you are nothing like him. you both were pawns in the gods' games.

[pelideswhore]

Paris: How would you describe my leadership skills?

Hector: Nonexistent.

Hector: Otherwise, excellent.

[km3tt0]

Ares: Why did you allow your daughter to hurt me? :(

Zeus: Bc she’s my fav

[fluentisonus]

people on that poll saying they're voting for hera bc she's a milf as though aphrodite is not famously a milf. learn your milfstory

[emmikay]

Odysseus: You fought two gods after being shot in the shoulder?

Diomedes: Well, yes.

Odysseus: It’s just a little hard to believe.

Diomedes: Not really. One thing I have learned doing this - there's no drug like adrenaline.

[adriles]

still feels weird every time somebody recalls my infamous “rage". feels bad to be defined by the grief fueled frenzy so easily induced in me

[starlitsequins]

my dad is reading the iliad for the first time and came to me after book 16 and we were on drastically different wavelengths...there i was all excited about him finally witnessing patroclus slaughtering everyone and there he was horrified at the violence...look sometimes you just have to let the aristeia take you and forget your morals

[finelythreadedsky]

i'm fundamentally opposed to book titles in translations of ancient epics ('beguilement on mount ida,' 'a hero's son awakens,' 'the olive tree bed,' 'camilla's finest hour,' 'juno served by a fury') bc it just seems like too much to me to presume you know what single thing the book is really about, but christopher logue is allowed to do it

[thatthinginthemoss]

I have no problem with how people headcanon Remus and Sirius' sexualities but I think you need to really think about why you are choosing a certain sexuality and how that affects your perception.

I have been in this fandom for almost ten year (which is jarring for me) and I have seen how the sexualities have changed how they are both perceived. Remus was more often than not headcanoned as being gay and he was a soft boy who was quiet and didn't really take part in the pranks and he was focused on academics and was occasionally sarcastic and always had this "feminine" quality about him in both artworks and writings. Sirius was more often than not headcanoned as being bisexual and he was brash and loud and a "ladies man" who slept around and didn't care about pissing people off.

Now these have switched, and while they still do retain some of the original common traits, they are mostly swapped and I find it interesting that characters headcanoned as gay are suddenly soft and nervous and quiet and always end up feminised in some way, which ordinarily would not be a problem however it seems to come up again and again with gay characters. It is also interesting how characters headcanoned as bisexual become brash and mean and sleep around.

This fandom has a serious problem with playing into stereotypes about sexualities without even realising it and often defending it by saying you're queer so it's fine. It's not, if anything when you're queer you should be trying harder to break the stereotypes surrounding your own sexuality.

Anyway, just think about why you're choosing a sexuality for a character and how you perceive them before and afterwards.