#i hate the tme/tma binary

[ridibulous]

everyone's able to be affected by transmisogyny dipshit it came free with your fucking (inter)sexist and queerphobic society /ref

[yammoba]

It's like yeah, ultimatly who gives an actual shit about the specific name for something. I feel this way about identifing peoples identities and also when it comes to the words we chose to describe systems of oppression. Ultimately the importance lies in being able to communicate. And if a singular word doesn't apply, that just use a sentence. Thats probably what you'll have to do anyways 🙃 or multiple paragraphs that still end up meaning nothing.

Im just annoyed at the people who seem hellbent on subdividing transphobia experienced into the categories of "transmysoginy exempt" and "transmysoginy applicable" as some kind of universal truth depending on your agab and perceived transition "direction"? While also denying the legitimacy of transmasc specific transphobia. Like. They seem kinda contradictory.

Like, if transmasc are exempt from transmysoginy, (which could be debatable depending of the circumstance and deffinitions at play) than its extra fucking shitty to claim terms we use to describe "transmasc specific opression"* are like.... inherently misogynist or something i dont even know.

If you want to claim that the shit transmascs deal with is non-specific transphobia while specifying transmysoginy as something that blanketly does not apply to anyone except transfems than uhhh............. i do have some unfortunate information for you about the medical industry and how it treats transmascs. And how a lot of people veiw trans people as "just their assigned gender" even if they claim or act in support.

*if you wanna claim transmasc specific opression doesn't exist its a shit fuck rabbit hole and all i really want to say is like. obviously. It does. Fucking of course. Are you fucking stupid? This is why i hate all this to begin with. The "source" of that opression weather its out of a mysogonistic beliefe that ""womenhood"" must be protected or out of a belife that "men" are threatening etc is kinda down to the situation, and like most of trasnphobia, its a combo of both, in what ever ratio allows the most pain. The practical reality is that people get treated like shit by doctors and politicians. And like. Everyone.

I'm gennerally of the opinion that more terms is better, and if people feel like using tme/tma is helpful to decribe themself than cool. But like also... if you're working in that framwork than maybe think about why other people might make terms to describe their experiences. I guess I should too.

[legalownerofufoemoji]

I'm so brave for not starting a problem on the Internet. I'm SO BRAVE

[genderqueerdykes]

My MtF friend and I got on the topic of TME/TMA bullshit the other day and she pointed out something I wanted to share (with her permission) "The whole concept of TME/TMA can even result in trans women never wanting to come out to avoid being associated with such shitty believes. If my first interactions in the trans community was someone who believed in it I would probably never admit to myself that I was trans cuz I don't want to associate with a group whose entire personality seems to be victimizing the trauma olympics I-Am-The-Main-Character all in one. Hell they would've probably told me I wasn't actually a trans woman just because my egg cracked late and exclude me anyway."

thank you so much for taking the time to send this, i really appreciate it, because your friend said it better than i ever could've.

I don't want to associate with a group whose entire personality seems to be victimizing the trauma olympics I-Am-The-Main-Character all in one.

this is something i've been wanting to flat out say for a while, so thank you very much for this. it literally is very VERY petty behavior at this point and i'm not humoring it anymore. we have to call things for what they are and admit that a lot of transfems are using this as an opportunity to wallow in their misery so they can control others to make themselves feel better because they feel powerless in cisheteronormative patriarchy. it's not fun or quirky or progressive.

i am very much over making queerness about who is the most oppressed or who is the biggest victim. i feel like a lot of people forgot what a victim complex is for the sake of mining pats on the back from strangers. so many transfeminine people right now are replacing their personalities with being a victim and it needs to come to an end. womanhood is not about being a victim, no matter how hard that woman has it. a lot of transfems genuinely do have this "I Am The Main Character" behavior. a lot of transfems genuinely do believe they are the protagonists of the queer community due to how bad they have it. we have to call it for what it is at this point. it's not an attack to say it.

i've been trying to point this out for quite a while: the TME/TMA binary and man/masc hating in general hurts trans women who are questioning, just now learning about transness, stealth, need to stay in the closet, are never transition, who struggle to pass, who don't want to pass, who are butch, who are gender non conforming, and those who are also men. but this especially hurts questioning and newly introduced trans women because nobody wants to be told that they're shitty for being a man one day, and then babied and patted on the back for being a woman the next. the whiplash from that would be damaging alone

your friend brings up a good point too because what about the trans women whose eggs crack later in life? what about those who don't realize they're a woman until they're in their 50s, 60s, 70s, 80s...? what about trans women who only interact with or present their womanhood sometimes? what about trans women who are content being seen as a man in society, but still identify as a woman inside? what about the trans women who don't ever want to tell another soul but are still women despite that?

this behavior hurts genderfluid and butch transfems a lot. this behavior harms masculine trans women so badly. there are transfeminine butches that want to present butch and i don't care if you read them as a "Cishet man" that's a trans butch and they're not obligated to be less masculine for anyone to accept them. trans butches face so much bullshit for how they dress, appear and act. i'm sorry not everyone's womanhood is feminine, but transfeminine butches deserve to present however the hell they want to and not have anyone call their identity into question.

it really affects trans women who don't pass, don't try to or don't want to.

it really affects trans women of color.

this behavior hurts so many people and i really want everyone to understand a lot of those people... are trans women. please be more considerate of those around you. thanks for taking the time to send this anon, i really appreciate it. you can let your friend know that was deeply insightful & exactly a point i've been trying to make for months. thank you both. have a great week, stay safe

[our-ftm-experience]

tw; vent

as a trans masc intersex person i really hate the 'tme/tma' thing with a passion. ive had cis women completely dismiss my issues because i am trans masc. using "tma/tme" is intersexist. using *any* kind of binary terms is intersexist. they refuse to listen to intersex people and claim they are allies. i am tired of the blatant intersexism in our community.

agreed. thank you for sharing your experience. /g

[transfemme-shelterdog]

yknow. I've noticed almost everyone, transfemmes and transmascs alike, who use the tma/tme framework always seem... sad? dysphoric? depressed?

I don't know. I just think it's sad that trans people are so consumed by cisgender and honestly western ideas of binary and prejudice that they just. destroy themselves from the inside out.

Transfemmes that deny transandrophobia in a way deny that their experiences with androphobia in the context of being transfem were valid. A trans woman being perceived as evil and scary because she's "a man"? that's transandrophobia. Just like trans men being seen as "hysterical women" is transmisogyny. You're allowed to talk about that. Hold my hand, we can escape trans infighting together.

When I was in my hard-right MRA era, I was fucking miserable all the time. The constant hate and feeling like everyone aside from those like me was a bad person really chews away at your sanity.

The only cure is leaving the hate behind and learning to love others. Which is hard, I will say. But it's worth it.

These girls need to leave their radfem groups and start being cordial with those unlike them, and listen and learn. It's the only way to get out of that personal hell.

[plaidos]

I’m sorry that TME folks seem to fixate on harassing you.

It can be so frustrating to see trans men engage with sexism / TMRA ideas but claim it as new found knowledge. Like, AFAB as a “sex class” is a social assignment, not an excuse to not examine privilege. I’ve had similar experiences myself.

I’d ask them to read Whipping Girl but I’m sure they’d find a way to misconstrue it and argue the minutiae instead of looking for other trnasfeminist texts, like Trans Rad Fem.

Ex. (TW: TME gaslighting/ignorant behavior; jump either side of ℹ️ to skip examples)

When I told my TME non-binary uncle I was trans as a kid too, he told me, TMA futch girl, that it didn’t count bc I wasn’t out but like…why does he think I couldn’t be out? He said I just didn’t face any issues for my womanhood then and that only after I started to look like a girl did it happen.

I had a similar experience with my ex-fiance agender TME when I told him I was scared about legislation against trans women, citing I have breasts now and I’m visibly TMA. He told me I could always claim to be intersex as a man with gynecomastia instead of TMA. Which is both transmisogyny and intersexism.

ℹ️

These are just two examples but I have so many more and I’m sure you do too. It’s so hard to see these bullies aim their hate at you when it’s all of us. Any TMA girl/butch/thing when we speak up, gets the shit.

You deserve better than this. All our sisters do. Stay strong girlie.

god, your own uncle who was trans himself like... that's gutting. i'm so incredibly sorry that this has happened and for so long. it's heartbreaking how common these experiences are

[lesbiansanemi]

Like idk y’all kinda suck. Y’all have made being gay/trans on this website in-fucking-sufferable recently. I know there has always been “discourse” but whatever the fuck is happening rn feels inescapable if you happen to post about anything gay or trans at all it doesn’t matter how many people I block or unfollow I’m still just constantly watching transmascs and transfems scream at each other over who has it worse and insinuating the other never suffers at all and everyone refuses to call themselves bisexual again for some reason and we’re acting like male privilege isn’t a thing and attacking everyone who says otherwise and we hate asexual and non-binary people again and acting like TMA/TME is an all encompassing dichotomy despite the fact that it just doesn’t always work that way (ESPECIALLY once race gets factored in) and if anyone says otherwise they hate trans women or something and idk. Idk idk idk idk man. This shit sucks and I hate reading it and watching everyone act like it’s this intense and I do genuinely think some people would benefit from accepting that they’re gonna have privilege in certain areas cuz really I think that’s where so much of it stems from. Everyone wants to be the most oppressed person in the room and not being that is some kind of moral failing. If you’re white, you’re gonna have white privilege which affects your being queer. Some of you have male privilege and claiming you don’t just because you’re some flavor of queer doesn’t mean you don’t. Sometimes people who aren’t transfem are going to be victims of transmisogyny which is why, while useful in certain conversations, I don’t think TMA/TME is the “perfect” way to separate transfems from transmascs and YEAH sorry idc what you say, it is just another version of saying your agab. We’re throwing around “theyfab” again as a way to shut afabs up. People are targeting and harassing transfems for saying ANYTHING about their specific oppressions and it’s just like. I THINK YOU ALL SUCK !!!!! I THINK EVERYONE GENUINELY ENGAGING IN THIS AND DOING THESE THINGS KINDA FUCKING SUCKS! You’re not helping anything, your energy could go towards so many other more useful things, you’re just attacking other people and making them feel like shit over non-issues in the grand scheme of things esp given how many anti-lgbtq laws and policies are cropping up in A LOT of countries. And I’m just fucking tired of seeing it man. Do something other than fighting with people on tumblr.com over which sect of trans people suffers the most by a huuuuuuge margin apparently. there is always going to be more overlap than there isn’t why are we acting like that’s not true and we’re all entirely different species in an environment that doesn’t have enough food for us all and we could simply never understand one another IF everyone could stop thinking they’re the center of the universe for five fucking seconds

[genderqueerdykes]

hi sorry if this is a dumb question but can you explain what TME and TMA mean? is it like transmedicalist adjacent type stuff? i’ve been seeing TME/TMA everywhere on my dash lately and i tried to figure it out by looking it up and looking through the tags on tumblr but everything i saw didn’t like… explain fully or give me any concrete information. i love your blog and i trust your information so i thought i would ask :)

sure!

tme stands for "transmisogyny exempt" and tma stands for "transmisogyny affected"

they're nothing terms, because everyone and anyone can be targeted and thus affected by transmisogyny, just like other forms of bigotry. cis men and women can be targets of transmisogyny. transmisogyny affects a lot of people of color regardless of identity. transmisogyny affects a lot of gay men. transmisogyny affects trans men, nonbinary people, genderfluid people, genderqueer people, intersex people, and a lot of other queer people other than just transfems and trans women.

"tma" is being used as a stand-in for "amab transfem/trans woman", and "tme" is being used as a stand-in for "afab", and in a lot of cases "anyone who isn't an amab transfem/trans woman". people end up using "tme" in really hateful ways, it's being used to deny people their experiences and to drive a wedge between trans people. it's unrealistic to separate people by the trauma they face in society like this. not only that but a lot of people really just use these terms to try to figure out what genitals people have. i have no idea why people came up with this, but it's not realistic. it's exorsexist & intersexist as hell and it recreates the afab/amab binary again, as if we needed another binary.

hope that makes sense! thank you, and thanks for taking the time to stop by!

[antiendovents]

just putting this here to say that I believe in trasnandrophobia. If you think trans men have it "easy" or have more privileges than other trans people (or even more privileges than cis women??) then stay the fuck away from me. If you think trans men don't struggle, that we pass easily and get by without experiencing any transphobia then stay away. I don't want you here if you downplay the issues trans men face and act as if they're privileged

Also I don't agree with misandry or radical feminism, we understand the anger but hating all men is not the solution. It's just as bad as when men hate all women. It judges people based off their gender. Not to mention trans men, disabled men, black men, ect. Not every man is rich and powerful, not every man is benefited by the system

I also don't agree with using afab / amab as a binary, not do I agree with TME Vs TMA labels. It's all just repackaged binary shit, forcing people into boxes, assuming their experiences. I don't believe misogyny can be "misdirected", and even if it is I don't believe that suddenly means it doesn't affect the person targeted.

((Though I do agree afab and amab terms can be helpful in the medical sense that can also fall apart after transition and intersex people would be different even if labeled afab or amab by doctors))

I felt I needed to post this because I've seen a lot of hate towards trans men and just men in general as well as a lot of TME Vs TMA stuff lately and I hate it. So yeah

[velvetvexations]

TRFs cautioning against the oncoming tidal wave of ''tme genderfuck whatever'' detransitioners ANY DAY NOW is literally the same shit TERFs say about the oncoming tidal wave of ''poor mutilated widdle girl'' detransitioners. like.. word for word ''any day now, its coming aaaaaany day now. you'll all see. we were right aaaaaall along.'' said with the most unbearable smugness and i just..

actual brainrot

they hate non-binary people so much lol hey bitches this is why non-binary people AMAB who aren't also women don't want anything to do with your TMA/TME cult

[transfemme-shelterdog]

could I get an opinion on this? (extremely transandrophobic and intersexist bingo board)

to clarify some of the vaguely iffy ones on here-

trans women often do get more visibility, positive or negative- (this does not correspond to violence rates)

male/female socialization as in people raised male or female have different, though not necessarily bad, perspectives + experiences.

guys/dude is generally gender neutral but if someone's uncomfortable respect that

this has like. 800 notes and most from transmascs that are agreeing with this sadly. the creator of this board is self described tme

I'll go point by point, left to right/top to bottom:

There's nothing wrong with they/them pronouns, or any pronouns honestly. This just comes across as exorsexist (which is on par for these people)

Wow, two points in and already contradictory. Honey, you're the one saying that you can't have a complex gender by shitting on people who are enby

The fact that I engaged once with these people just last night and I had self described TERFs in my comments and reblogs, shitting on me, and calling me a "he/him" and "male rapist" and other fun things says everything I need to know about this issue. I've never once seen a "transmisogynist" (read: transandrophobia poster) reblog from a TERF, and I'm very active in the disk-horse

Sis, you're the one shitting on trans men. These guys are just defending themselves.

You fuckers literally accused me of being a rapist/predator with a "laundry list of fetishes" who "has teen girls tell him about their fetishes", nice try

Ok, this is a complex one. Systemically, misandry (as used to describe cishet males being oppressed) isn't really a thing. Is there going to be individual instances of cishet men getting fucked by the system? Sure. But systemically, cishet men have a lot of advantages that others aren't afforded. That being said, we both know they mean "hatred of any men for any reason" which is bullshit. These people shit on trans men all the time.

Well, they are? They call trans men TME and trans women TMA and never apply it to cis people, thus it's just another sex based binary

We are? Just in different ways.

Refer to point 1 and 2, hypocrite

What's their point? So what's the minimum amount of examples that you need to prove a point?

I don't think any trans mascs say that, and those that would, probably would apologize and make an effort not to call a trans woman dude if she's uncomfortable with it. I do agree, it's not neutral, and hate being called it myself

My sister in christ, you likely use the term "theyfab"

n/a

Well, perisex trans women can't get pregnant, and trans men/mascs can, and have dysphoria around it. Not to mention corrective rape. It's a valid form of oppression that only affects perisex afab trans mascs.

Don't know of any zionist trans mascs, also did fucking TW make this?

Yes, you do, and you are. Good girl!

I've had these women hyperfocus on my kinks and shit on me for it. Never seen a trans dude do the same.

Yeah, well at least trans dudes are willing to fuck trans girls. Can't say the same for you lot (transhet t4t my beloved)

Yeah, we are hyper-fucking-visible. Look at any studies done on "trans people", and it's always trans women. Music wise? Typically all the traction goes to trans girls. Media? Mainly trans girls. Online? Mainly trans girls.

Really gonna act like you aren't taught "how to be a girl/boy" growing up? I know how to fit in with cis men, and easily boymode because of that.

Well, you can. This is Tumblr baby girl, make a post, tag it, and send it off to the world. I do it all the time, and people listen to me.

You girls are trans radfems and TERFs, sorry. Don't like the label? Change.

Isn't this the point you're making in the last box?

Trans men experience a shit load more misogyny growing up than trans women do after coming out. This is just a fact. Even more so in non-western countries (looking at you @that-satireguy my beloved non-western trans peep)

????????

[plaidos]

Hey, it’s the anon who brought up the experience with the first transmasc friend who was basically a TERF and also has had a good experience with a transmasc, I wanted to give one more example of each. I guess I wanna share the bad experience to get it out and bc it helps to know I'm not alone and the good experience to show TME people in general and especially transmascs that like. It is possible. Actually it's pretty easy. To be decent to us.

Bad experience - first (and only) time I tried using TMA/TME language or even transmasc/transfem around them I was accused of trying to reinvent the binary. In that same conversation, with that context, I was told i should use AMAB/AFAB instead and I shouldn't have a problem with them repeatedly calling me AMAB despite asking them not to because "it's just factual".

Good experience - when it became clear to my (now only) transmasc friend that i wasn't able to trust him, he said explicitly that he understood why I couldn't and that it was his responsibility to earn my trust and he would do whatever he could to do so.

I literally cried bc I was just coming off (bad experience again) having been called hysterical by a transmasc for "letting my trauma rule me" bc I had the audacity to speak in a slightly frustrated tone abt him calling me a radfem for talking abt the power he held over me (an experience that resulted in the entire friend group, all transfems apart from this person, ditching me bc I wouldn't forgive him).

Like. I've had so many shit experiences that my bar is "treat me decently and when you do a microagrresion don't argue with me when called out". And yet most transmascs can't even hit that bar lol

and of course then we’re the ones painted as hysterical, man-hating, crazy, separatist bitches for only wanting to spend time with trans people who are not going to treat us that way.

[lxghtofthephoenixx]

I follow intersex tags on my main, as a cisintersex person. This way, I get good ol' intersex content on my dash often, and what do I see? Some clown placing 'transintersex' people among horrendously intersexist things. These people actually believe someone who wants or desires to be intersex/more intersex is in the same boat as fucking TERFs who call us "people with DSD" and at this point I fear the person who made that post may be too far gone if they genuinely believe that.

There is a point where, in your brigade to call everything intersexist, that you need to actually analyze things that actively hurt ALL intersex people. 'DSD', which stands for 'disordered sex development' for those who are unaware, actually harms the community. Forced binaries, such as 'amab/afab genitals', 'TME/TMA', painting 'cis/trans' as clear cut opposites where you can only be one, etc actually harms us. Genital surgeries, forced HRT, the fact that DOCTORS still see us as things to be fixed... THAT harms us. The vehement erasure of intersex people at pride events harms us.

For somebody to sit behind a screen and even acknowledge the horrors intersex people face, only to throw transintersex people under the bus while they're at it, is upsetting to me. I see all this hatred, cries of intersexism, towards transintersex individuals and cannot for the life of me see the point or reason behind it. It's possible that it's just cashing in on the current transID hate fad, which has poisoned so many supposed safe spaces... but it's still so upsetting to watch multiple communities I'm a part of waste their time on transID folk.

Whether or not you actually believe transID is all fetishization and that, in turn, means bigotry, one cannot waste their time on ultimately harmless shit when coercive sex reassignment (among other actual issues) is still a fucking thing. There are bigger issues at hand here, and the nonissue that transID people pose is not fucking important and never will be, because again it's a NONISSUE.

[official-megumin]

ngl being both a trans woman and intersex kinda fucking sucks.

Because you end in this intersection of both transmisogyny and heavy intersexism.

I can't really look to either the wider transfem community because intersexism is rampant there, but at the same time in intersex communities, AFAB intersex voices just seem so much loud and for AMAB intersex voices to be ignored.

I have come across two other AMAB intersex people on here, and both of them are very quiet about it, I haven't asked why. But I would guess it's because of how we're generally treated.

So even with the prominent intersex voices on here, you'll see the terms TME and TMA be condemned without nuance.

Because yea obviously they don't cover the wide spectrum that is human sex, but proveably it still is very very useful, because even in intersex spaces, transfems are smothered and not given space to talk. I have come across a lot of AFAB intersex people very in favor of AFAB people to be able to use trans fem as a label, and when it's used by specifically intersex AFAB people, I very much do not mind.

But where my opinion tends to differ, is that I do not think perisex AFAB people should use it.

I have only met one outspoken intersex woman on here, and still due to being afab. She was not barred needed access to gynocological care like I have been. So the clearly there are still differences in how we experience and interact with the world, because the world does not accept that sex isn't binary. It will latch on to the most minute differences to label us.

So with me being outwardly male, despite likely having full internal female sex organs, and developing classically female. I was still denied womanhood in ways that AFAB intersex people despite still very much being denied womanhood, don't experience.

I have many times trying to voice my opinions and feelings of overreach as an intersex trans woman, and I've always been ignored in favor of intersex people who haven't experienced being expected to be male.

And for those experiences I have been labelled a transmedicalist. Despite making it very clear that I don't care at all how you transition.

I simply want people to understand that some words have long histories that can't and shouldn't just be waved away. It can't be right that us telling you that you're overstepping boundaries and disrespecting us, is met with accusations of hate.

Just please give us space to voice our frustrations and let us talk about being stepped over, listen to us.

I just want one damn space I can feel understood and listened to in. Is that too much to ask for?

[captaincephalo]

vent post///

I wish there were other trans people I knew in real life that I could talk about transandrophobia/atm with and not feel like I’m a evil man talking over trans women.

I hate seeing transmasc experiences get talked about by other people for the purpose of perpetuating the idea that trans men don’t have it as bad, or have all of our oppression that we do face be explained away as misogyny and transphobia with no hatred against us as specifically transmasculine being valid.

I hate seeing transmisogyny being used solely to describe amab trans people and seeing TMA and TME be misused as stand ins for amab/afab, seeing oppression in such a binary and unchanging lens.

I don’t want my words to be twisted into me being a raging MRA tboi transandrobro that hates trans women. Or women in general. I don’t have any transmasc friends, literally only a single acquaintance. On the other hand, I have several transfem friends, some of whom I am close with.

I don’t know where I am going with this rant. All I know is that I feel alone, despite everything.