#i hate the tme/tma binary

[ridibulous]

everyone's able to be affected by transmisogyny dipshit it came free with your fucking (inter)sexist and queerphobic society /ref

[estrogenism]

very very funny how intersex transfems are by far the most vocal haters of tme/tma as binary terms because of the way that perisex people use them to discredit intersex trans people's complex experiences. but sure it's just those horrible afab trans people again!!

[Plaintext: very very funny how intersex transfems are by far the most vocal haters of tme/tma as binary terms because of the way that perisex people use them to discredit intersex trans people's complex experiences. but sure it's just those horrible afab trans people again!! End Plaintext.]

(also do not fucking try to witch hunt these people. i will block you on sight, i cropped out the urls for a reason)

edit: reminder that this post was made first and foremost about intersexism, and while it's okay to discuss other forms of oppression in the tags and reblogs (especially since i tagged them as such), please stop trying to brush off the original point.

[yammoba]

It's like yeah, ultimatly who gives an actual shit about the specific name for something. I feel this way about identifing peoples identities and also when it comes to the words we chose to describe systems of oppression. Ultimately the importance lies in being able to communicate. And if a singular word doesn't apply, that just use a sentence. Thats probably what you'll have to do anyways 🙃 or multiple paragraphs that still end up meaning nothing.

Im just annoyed at the people who seem hellbent on subdividing transphobia experienced into the categories of "transmysoginy exempt" and "transmysoginy applicable" as some kind of universal truth depending on your agab and perceived transition "direction"? While also denying the legitimacy of transmasc specific transphobia. Like. They seem kinda contradictory.

Like, if transmasc are exempt from transmysoginy, (which could be debatable depending of the circumstance and deffinitions at play) than its extra fucking shitty to claim terms we use to describe "transmasc specific opression"* are like.... inherently misogynist or something i dont even know.

If you want to claim that the shit transmascs deal with is non-specific transphobia while specifying transmysoginy as something that blanketly does not apply to anyone except transfems than uhhh............. i do have some unfortunate information for you about the medical industry and how it treats transmascs. And how a lot of people veiw trans people as "just their assigned gender" even if they claim or act in support.

*if you wanna claim transmasc specific opression doesn't exist its a shit fuck rabbit hole and all i really want to say is like. obviously. It does. Fucking of course. Are you fucking stupid? This is why i hate all this to begin with. The "source" of that opression weather its out of a mysogonistic beliefe that ""womenhood"" must be protected or out of a belife that "men" are threatening etc is kinda down to the situation, and like most of trasnphobia, its a combo of both, in what ever ratio allows the most pain. The practical reality is that people get treated like shit by doctors and politicians. And like. Everyone.

I'm gennerally of the opinion that more terms is better, and if people feel like using tme/tma is helpful to decribe themself than cool. But like also... if you're working in that framwork than maybe think about why other people might make terms to describe their experiences. I guess I should too.

[dreamboyf]

"youre all in an echo chamber anyway heres a list of gross icky tmes to block because ummmmm they're talking abt issues that affect transmascs"

[legalownerofufoemoji]

I'm so brave for not starting a problem on the Internet. I'm SO BRAVE

[euniexenoblade]

I don't think being against tme/tma language is inherently transmisogynistic but I do think the way people talk about being anti tme/tma is often transmisogynist. Like the worst of the worst is obvi velvet and her ilk who portray it as a tool to separate young trans kids for grooming purposes (literally "trans women are groomers") but the smaller ways you see it is "tma language always skeeved me out" oh? Why? Why that specific word? The word skeev has a pretty specific implication, why that word? Or "it's bioessentialist" "it's a new binary" which are always touted by people who use agab language, terminology that specifically uses male and female, aiming to try to compare trans women with terfs, literally a group of people whose targets are trans women. Or "it doesn't include intersex people" this by definition just doesn't make sense. If an intersex person experiences transmisogyny they're tma, if not they're tme. What about that doesn't include intersex people? They go on and on about why specific intersex are affected by transmisogyny but. It's like this doesn't matter all you're doing is explaining why someone could be tma. That works. That's fine. It doesn't do anything to disprove the terms. "Transmisogyny affects everyone" so does misogyny but misogyny is still recognized as the oppression of women.

There's a difference between not liking something and misrepresenting something. Every argument against tme/tma is always a misrepresentation, or at worst outright terf rhetoric. I have seen someone say "I'm not sure how I feel about it yet" and I thought that was totally fair. But frankly, I'm tired of getting called a male, and unsurprising the people who hate tme/tma love to call me a male.

[our-ftm-experience]

tw; vent

as a trans masc intersex person i really hate the 'tme/tma' thing with a passion. ive had cis women completely dismiss my issues because i am trans masc. using "tma/tme" is intersexist. using *any* kind of binary terms is intersexist. they refuse to listen to intersex people and claim they are allies. i am tired of the blatant intersexism in our community.

agreed. thank you for sharing your experience. /g

[rwuffles]

tme/tma is a shitty binary to sort people into because it leaves no room for nuance (i.e. intersex people who aren't transfem getting perceived as such and therefore are subjected to transmisogyny, gnc men ((tmasc & cis)), etc.)

transandrophobia & transmisandry don't imply the existence of androphobia nor misandry; the 'trans' is there for a reason

the oppression of transmascs & trans men is rooted in misogyny. we never said it wasn't

trans men don't have privilege over trans women in the public eye because they're still perceived as girls. girls who don't know any better about what they're doing to their body — no matter how old they are — and no matter how well they pass, them being trans can completely change a person's perception of them

passing for transmascs & trans men (especially those in unsupportive households) is no easier than passing for transfems & trans women

any "privilege" we have from being perceived as cisgender women... are you serious? are we being serious right now? we AREN'T cis. we AREN'T women. that's like, the whole thing! you know that, right? you aren't just looking at us and thinking Women Lite, right?

on top of that: what transmascs & trans men are being told is the exact same thing that most of us have been told our whole lives. to "shut up" because we're "girls" who can't understand the topic being discussed; it's just that now, we're being told to because we're men who can't understand the topic of misogyny and oppression. despite many of us having grown up as women & girls, and a lot of us still being perceived as such.

but we're on the internet, and nuance doesn't exist.

transmisogyny & transandrophobia both exist in the real world. those are issues that we, as a community, need to work towards solving in our current day and age. what isn't a real-world problem? about whether or not trans men & transmascs have privilege over transfems — or, god forbid, that we even face oppression in the first place.

p.s. you can be trans and still be transphobic. your identity does not exclude nor excuse you from hate. there is no identity that makes you incapable of wrong. if you think there is, i need you to take a step back from the internet & talk with real people.

[plaidos]

Hey, it’s the anon who brought up the experience with the first transmasc friend who was basically a TERF and also has had a good experience with a transmasc, I wanted to give one more example of each. I guess I wanna share the bad experience to get it out and bc it helps to know I'm not alone and the good experience to show TME people in general and especially transmascs that like. It is possible. Actually it's pretty easy. To be decent to us.

Bad experience - first (and only) time I tried using TMA/TME language or even transmasc/transfem around them I was accused of trying to reinvent the binary. In that same conversation, with that context, I was told i should use AMAB/AFAB instead and I shouldn't have a problem with them repeatedly calling me AMAB despite asking them not to because "it's just factual".

Good experience - when it became clear to my (now only) transmasc friend that i wasn't able to trust him, he said explicitly that he understood why I couldn't and that it was his responsibility to earn my trust and he would do whatever he could to do so.

I literally cried bc I was just coming off (bad experience again) having been called hysterical by a transmasc for "letting my trauma rule me" bc I had the audacity to speak in a slightly frustrated tone abt him calling me a radfem for talking abt the power he held over me (an experience that resulted in the entire friend group, all transfems apart from this person, ditching me bc I wouldn't forgive him).

Like. I've had so many shit experiences that my bar is "treat me decently and when you do a microagrresion don't argue with me when called out". And yet most transmascs can't even hit that bar lol

and of course then we’re the ones painted as hysterical, man-hating, crazy, separatist bitches for only wanting to spend time with trans people who are not going to treat us that way.

[antiendovents]

just putting this here to say that I believe in trasnandrophobia. If you think trans men have it "easy" or have more privileges than other trans people (or even more privileges than cis women??) then stay the fuck away from me. If you think trans men don't struggle, that we pass easily and get by without experiencing any transphobia then stay away. I don't want you here if you downplay the issues trans men face and act as if they're privileged

Also I don't agree with misandry or radical feminism, we understand the anger but hating all men is not the solution. It's just as bad as when men hate all women. It judges people based off their gender. Not to mention trans men, disabled men, black men, ect. Not every man is rich and powerful, not every man is benefited by the system

I also don't agree with using afab / amab as a binary, not do I agree with TME Vs TMA labels. It's all just repackaged binary shit, forcing people into boxes, assuming their experiences. I don't believe misogyny can be "misdirected", and even if it is I don't believe that suddenly means it doesn't affect the person targeted.

((Though I do agree afab and amab terms can be helpful in the medical sense that can also fall apart after transition and intersex people would be different even if labeled afab or amab by doctors))

I felt I needed to post this because I've seen a lot of hate towards trans men and just men in general as well as a lot of TME Vs TMA stuff lately and I hate it. So yeah

[lxghtofthephoenixx]

I follow intersex tags on my main, as a cisintersex person. This way, I get good ol' intersex content on my dash often, and what do I see? Some clown placing 'transintersex' people among horrendously intersexist things. These people actually believe someone who wants or desires to be intersex/more intersex is in the same boat as fucking TERFs who call us "people with DSD" and at this point I fear the person who made that post may be too far gone if they genuinely believe that.

There is a point where, in your brigade to call everything intersexist, that you need to actually analyze things that actively hurt ALL intersex people. 'DSD', which stands for 'disordered sex development' for those who are unaware, actually harms the community. Forced binaries, such as 'amab/afab genitals', 'TME/TMA', painting 'cis/trans' as clear cut opposites where you can only be one, etc actually harms us. Genital surgeries, forced HRT, the fact that DOCTORS still see us as things to be fixed... THAT harms us. The vehement erasure of intersex people at pride events harms us.

For somebody to sit behind a screen and even acknowledge the horrors intersex people face, only to throw transintersex people under the bus while they're at it, is upsetting to me. I see all this hatred, cries of intersexism, towards transintersex individuals and cannot for the life of me see the point or reason behind it. It's possible that it's just cashing in on the current transID hate fad, which has poisoned so many supposed safe spaces... but it's still so upsetting to watch multiple communities I'm a part of waste their time on transID folk.

Whether or not you actually believe transID is all fetishization and that, in turn, means bigotry, one cannot waste their time on ultimately harmless shit when coercive sex reassignment (among other actual issues) is still a fucking thing. There are bigger issues at hand here, and the nonissue that transID people pose is not fucking important and never will be, because again it's a NONISSUE.

[official-megumin]

ngl being both a trans woman and intersex kinda fucking sucks.

Because you end in this intersection of both transmisogyny and heavy intersexism.

I can't really look to either the wider transfem community because intersexism is rampant there, but at the same time in intersex communities, AFAB intersex voices just seem so much loud and for AMAB intersex voices to be ignored.

I have come across two other AMAB intersex people on here, and both of them are very quiet about it, I haven't asked why. But I would guess it's because of how we're generally treated.

So even with the prominent intersex voices on here, you'll see the terms TME and TMA be condemned without nuance.

Because yea obviously they don't cover the wide spectrum that is human sex, but proveably it still is very very useful, because even in intersex spaces, transfems are smothered and not given space to talk. I have come across a lot of AFAB intersex people very in favor of AFAB people to be able to use trans fem as a label, and when it's used by specifically intersex AFAB people, I very much do not mind.

But where my opinion tends to differ, is that I do not think perisex AFAB people should use it.

I have only met one outspoken intersex woman on here, and still due to being afab. She was not barred needed access to gynocological care like I have been. So the clearly there are still differences in how we experience and interact with the world, because the world does not accept that sex isn't binary. It will latch on to the most minute differences to label us.

So with me being outwardly male, despite likely having full internal female sex organs, and developing classically female. I was still denied womanhood in ways that AFAB intersex people despite still very much being denied womanhood, don't experience.

I have many times trying to voice my opinions and feelings of overreach as an intersex trans woman, and I've always been ignored in favor of intersex people who haven't experienced being expected to be male.

And for those experiences I have been labelled a transmedicalist. Despite making it very clear that I don't care at all how you transition.

I simply want people to understand that some words have long histories that can't and shouldn't just be waved away. It can't be right that us telling you that you're overstepping boundaries and disrespecting us, is met with accusations of hate.

Just please give us space to voice our frustrations and let us talk about being stepped over, listen to us.

I just want one damn space I can feel understood and listened to in. Is that too much to ask for?

[abearinthewoods]

It is annoying how often I see people try to pigeonhole trans people into a TMA/TME binary.

Like, no. Stop trying to gate keep victim-hood by gender, especially to the group that has lived experiences being attacked for attributes of both genders.

Transphobes do not care about privilege rhetoric when they use the most attackable aspects of both genders in their hate.

[velvetvexations]

She also thinks TERFs don't hate cis men and it honestly might be impossible to obliterate my faith in someone's intelligence - or their intellectual honesty - faster.

see when I first saw the terms TME/TMA I thought "that's a bit weird to list in your bio (like who would write 'homophobia exempt' in their bio for a fandom blog) but I can see the draw if you're writing about transmisogyny and want to be inclusive of how transmisogyny affects more people than binary trans women and the fact that systems of oppression don't operate on the basis of one's personal identity (i.e. bigots aren't going to ask what pronouns you use before calling you slurs)". and then I've seen pretty much everyone who uses the TME/TMA language say "you're TME. you're not experiencing transmisogyny" to everyone — Black cis women, gnc men, intersex people, non-transfem trans people, etc — except for people who explicitly identify as a trans woman/transfem. and even then there seems to be a pressure to be binary and/or medically transition. if you're going to say only transfem-identifying people are TMA then genuinely what is the point of having that language other than to appear slightlyyyyy more inclusive (though not in actuality) and to obfuscate your point to people who aren't already waist deep in online trans discourse. unless the point is of course to create us vs them mentalities in the trans community and essentialize the trans experience into two competing sides and othering people who try to have good faith intracommunity discussions. and this whole thing is just frustrating as a very agender person who refuses to be grouped in as "transfem" or "transmasc" like stop trying to draw binary boundaries around nonbinary identities and then getting frustrated when people don't fit in. you're never going to find a progressive way to stereotype & essentialize genders even if you use a guise of being trans inclusive.

Unfortunately the point is of course to create us vs them mentalities in the trans community and essentialize the trans experience into two competing sides and othering people who try to have good faith intracommunity discussions.

[mons7errr]

i hate TME/TMA i hate AMAB/AFAB i hate people reducing me to my physical characteristics i hate binaries i hate assumptions i hate i hate i hate

[maxknightley]

In regards to the tme/tma thing, I remember when it was a big thing to insist that if a nonbinary person is “tme” they have to disclose it even if they would prefer to just say they’re nonbinary and leave it at that.

And like…nosiness about agab aside (“um cis men can be tme so it’s not demanding to know someone’s agab” Okay but you know this person is nonbinary so you know they’re not a cis man. Functionally you ARE demanding to know their agab.) Did nobody grasp that this also makes it harder for nonbinary transfems if the only defense to being pestered to reveal their tme/tma status is “oh I’m tma so I don’t have to tell you.”

I don’t know if this makes any sense I just hate that culture of forcing disclosures about “privilege” from people. The internet should be a place where people can experience what it’s like not being boxed in by stereotypes and just be a name on a screen. It can’t be like that for anyone if we don’t uphold that right for everyone.

I have mixed feelings on the matter, because on the one hand, like... intracommunity transmisogyny is a very real issue, and it's not something I want to downplay even if I personally haven't been hit very hard by it. So I can understand why a transfem person - nonbinary or otherwise - would be like "okay but are they nonbinary in a way where they Probably Get It, or are they nonbinary in a way where I'm still gonna have to walk on eggshells just in case"

that said I absolutely agree with you that:

when "tme" is deployed in an intracommunity context it is, in fact, just "afab" with a thin coat of paint. it feels disingenuous to me. like as much as the term "theyfab" sucks shit it's at least honest rather than unnecessarily circumspect. idk!

it sucks ass that being nonbinary doesn't actually let you escape the binary! that fucker won't let go!! ultimately that's not a problem I'd lay at the feet of the trans community specifically, mind you; instead it's a natural consequence of how inescapable transphobia and sexism are, even within our own minds and communities. I don't really have any advice or political insights on this front besides "shit sucks"