#i hate the tme/tma binary

[ridibulous]

everyone's able to be affected by transmisogyny dipshit it came free with your fucking (inter)sexist and queerphobic society /ref

[estrogenism]

very very funny how intersex transfems are by far the most vocal haters of tme/tma as binary terms because of the way that perisex people use them to discredit intersex trans people's complex experiences. but sure it's just those horrible afab trans people again!!

[Plaintext: very very funny how intersex transfems are by far the most vocal haters of tme/tma as binary terms because of the way that perisex people use them to discredit intersex trans people's complex experiences. but sure it's just those horrible afab trans people again!! End Plaintext.]

(also do not fucking try to witch hunt these people. i will block you on sight, i cropped out the urls for a reason)

edit: reminder that this post was made first and foremost about intersexism, and while it's okay to discuss other forms of oppression in the tags and reblogs (especially since i tagged them as such), please stop trying to brush off the original point.

[yammoba]

It's like yeah, ultimatly who gives an actual shit about the specific name for something. I feel this way about identifing peoples identities and also when it comes to the words we chose to describe systems of oppression. Ultimately the importance lies in being able to communicate. And if a singular word doesn't apply, that just use a sentence. Thats probably what you'll have to do anyways 🙃 or multiple paragraphs that still end up meaning nothing.

Im just annoyed at the people who seem hellbent on subdividing transphobia experienced into the categories of "transmysoginy exempt" and "transmysoginy applicable" as some kind of universal truth depending on your agab and perceived transition "direction"? While also denying the legitimacy of transmasc specific transphobia. Like. They seem kinda contradictory.

Like, if transmasc are exempt from transmysoginy, (which could be debatable depending of the circumstance and deffinitions at play) than its extra fucking shitty to claim terms we use to describe "transmasc specific opression"* are like.... inherently misogynist or something i dont even know.

If you want to claim that the shit transmascs deal with is non-specific transphobia while specifying transmysoginy as something that blanketly does not apply to anyone except transfems than uhhh............. i do have some unfortunate information for you about the medical industry and how it treats transmascs. And how a lot of people veiw trans people as "just their assigned gender" even if they claim or act in support.

*if you wanna claim transmasc specific opression doesn't exist its a shit fuck rabbit hole and all i really want to say is like. obviously. It does. Fucking of course. Are you fucking stupid? This is why i hate all this to begin with. The "source" of that opression weather its out of a mysogonistic beliefe that ""womenhood"" must be protected or out of a belife that "men" are threatening etc is kinda down to the situation, and like most of trasnphobia, its a combo of both, in what ever ratio allows the most pain. The practical reality is that people get treated like shit by doctors and politicians. And like. Everyone.

I'm gennerally of the opinion that more terms is better, and if people feel like using tme/tma is helpful to decribe themself than cool. But like also... if you're working in that framwork than maybe think about why other people might make terms to describe their experiences. I guess I should too.

[dreamboyf]

"youre all in an echo chamber anyway heres a list of gross icky tmes to block because ummmmm they're talking abt issues that affect transmascs"

[legalownerofufoemoji]

I'm so brave for not starting a problem on the Internet. I'm SO BRAVE

[our-ftm-experience]

tw; vent

as a trans masc intersex person i really hate the 'tme/tma' thing with a passion. ive had cis women completely dismiss my issues because i am trans masc. using "tma/tme" is intersexist. using *any* kind of binary terms is intersexist. they refuse to listen to intersex people and claim they are allies. i am tired of the blatant intersexism in our community.

agreed. thank you for sharing your experience. /g

[cagandante-communistoide]

i think in terms of gender liberation what i would like people to understand the most is that the obligatory nature of manhood or womanhood exists in tandem with the obligatory nature of conforming to whichever you were assigned. I'm going to use a close friend as an example, who is a TMA nonbinary person: in a summation of their many words - "you know what it's like on top of being hated by everyone for being TMA? going outside and never passing or being able to say my gender even when i can pretend to be cis, and then going inside a group of other TMA people and getting misgendered there too." the axis of power between the nonbinary and the binary person is similar to the axis of power in between the TMA and TME person. Just as TMEs have greater access to healthcare, social recognition and capital over TMA people, so too in a group of just TMA people will those who are women more easily access healthcare due to transmedicalism, more easily pass as their genders (it is impossible for a nonbinary person to ever pass as nonbinary in the vast majority of the world), and more easily have their gender respected than a nonbinary TMA. to the point where even the people most up to speed on gender liberation, will say "trans women" instead of "TMAs" when talking about transmisogyny. Because everyone is either a man or a woman, right? Even if you consciously say otherwise, that's how you discuss gender, and it is incorrect because society does in fact acknowledge nonbinarity for one purpose only. To erase, suppress and mock it.

[antiendovents]

just putting this here to say that I believe in trasnandrophobia. If you think trans men have it "easy" or have more privileges than other trans people (or even more privileges than cis women??) then stay the fuck away from me. If you think trans men don't struggle, that we pass easily and get by without experiencing any transphobia then stay away. I don't want you here if you downplay the issues trans men face and act as if they're privileged

Also I don't agree with misandry or radical feminism, we understand the anger but hating all men is not the solution. It's just as bad as when men hate all women. It judges people based off their gender. Not to mention trans men, disabled men, black men, ect. Not every man is rich and powerful, not every man is benefited by the system

I also don't agree with using afab / amab as a binary, not do I agree with TME Vs TMA labels. It's all just repackaged binary shit, forcing people into boxes, assuming their experiences. I don't believe misogyny can be "misdirected", and even if it is I don't believe that suddenly means it doesn't affect the person targeted.

((Though I do agree afab and amab terms can be helpful in the medical sense that can also fall apart after transition and intersex people would be different even if labeled afab or amab by doctors))

I felt I needed to post this because I've seen a lot of hate towards trans men and just men in general as well as a lot of TME Vs TMA stuff lately and I hate it. So yeah

[trans-androgyne]

I'm so fucking exhausted of seeing transandrophobic transfems posting shit like "nobody lets trans women talk about transmisogyny" because like hello? Yes the fuck they do! The community very widely acknowledges that trans women need special support and I'm always getting shut down by people citing trans women! Calling someone transmisogynistic is a way to get them branded as evil no matter what the actual offense was but saying they hate trans men just gets people on their side because of course it's okay to hate trans men, they're men. They're usually referring to people having criticisms of the tme/tma binary but meanwhile I am literally not allowed to have any language to describe my oppression as a transmasc and trying to use some gets me sent threats of violence. You have so many real issues, go talk about those and stop acting like someone disagreeing with you personally (even though they're agreeing with many other trans women while doing so!) is silencing you!

[lxghtofthephoenixx]

I follow intersex tags on my main, as a cisintersex person. This way, I get good ol' intersex content on my dash often, and what do I see? Some clown placing 'transintersex' people among horrendously intersexist things. These people actually believe someone who wants or desires to be intersex/more intersex is in the same boat as fucking TERFs who call us "people with DSD" and at this point I fear the person who made that post may be too far gone if they genuinely believe that.

There is a point where, in your brigade to call everything intersexist, that you need to actually analyze things that actively hurt ALL intersex people. 'DSD', which stands for 'disordered sex development' for those who are unaware, actually harms the community. Forced binaries, such as 'amab/afab genitals', 'TME/TMA', painting 'cis/trans' as clear cut opposites where you can only be one, etc actually harms us. Genital surgeries, forced HRT, the fact that DOCTORS still see us as things to be fixed... THAT harms us. The vehement erasure of intersex people at pride events harms us.

For somebody to sit behind a screen and even acknowledge the horrors intersex people face, only to throw transintersex people under the bus while they're at it, is upsetting to me. I see all this hatred, cries of intersexism, towards transintersex individuals and cannot for the life of me see the point or reason behind it. It's possible that it's just cashing in on the current transID hate fad, which has poisoned so many supposed safe spaces... but it's still so upsetting to watch multiple communities I'm a part of waste their time on transID folk.

Whether or not you actually believe transID is all fetishization and that, in turn, means bigotry, one cannot waste their time on ultimately harmless shit when coercive sex reassignment (among other actual issues) is still a fucking thing. There are bigger issues at hand here, and the nonissue that transID people pose is not fucking important and never will be, because again it's a NONISSUE.

[official-megumin]

ngl being both a trans woman and intersex kinda fucking sucks.

Because you end in this intersection of both transmisogyny and heavy intersexism.

I can't really look to either the wider transfem community because intersexism is rampant there, but at the same time in intersex communities, AFAB intersex voices just seem so much loud and for AMAB intersex voices to be ignored.

I have come across two other AMAB intersex people on here, and both of them are very quiet about it, I haven't asked why. But I would guess it's because of how we're generally treated.

So even with the prominent intersex voices on here, you'll see the terms TME and TMA be condemned without nuance.

Because yea obviously they don't cover the wide spectrum that is human sex, but proveably it still is very very useful, because even in intersex spaces, transfems are smothered and not given space to talk. I have come across a lot of AFAB intersex people very in favor of AFAB people to be able to use trans fem as a label, and when it's used by specifically intersex AFAB people, I very much do not mind.

But where my opinion tends to differ, is that I do not think perisex AFAB people should use it.

I have only met one outspoken intersex woman on here, and still due to being afab. She was not barred needed access to gynocological care like I have been. So the clearly there are still differences in how we experience and interact with the world, because the world does not accept that sex isn't binary. It will latch on to the most minute differences to label us.

So with me being outwardly male, despite likely having full internal female sex organs, and developing classically female. I was still denied womanhood in ways that AFAB intersex people despite still very much being denied womanhood, don't experience.

I have many times trying to voice my opinions and feelings of overreach as an intersex trans woman, and I've always been ignored in favor of intersex people who haven't experienced being expected to be male.

And for those experiences I have been labelled a transmedicalist. Despite making it very clear that I don't care at all how you transition.

I simply want people to understand that some words have long histories that can't and shouldn't just be waved away. It can't be right that us telling you that you're overstepping boundaries and disrespecting us, is met with accusations of hate.

Just please give us space to voice our frustrations and let us talk about being stepped over, listen to us.

I just want one damn space I can feel understood and listened to in. Is that too much to ask for?

[abearinthewoods]

It is annoying how often I see people try to pigeonhole trans people into a TMA/TME binary.

Like, no. Stop trying to gate keep victim-hood by gender, especially to the group that has lived experiences being attacked for attributes of both genders.

Transphobes do not care about privilege rhetoric when they use the most attackable aspects of both genders in their hate.

[velvetvexations]

She also thinks TERFs don't hate cis men and it honestly might be impossible to obliterate my faith in someone's intelligence - or their intellectual honesty - faster.

see when I first saw the terms TME/TMA I thought "that's a bit weird to list in your bio (like who would write 'homophobia exempt' in their bio for a fandom blog) but I can see the draw if you're writing about transmisogyny and want to be inclusive of how transmisogyny affects more people than binary trans women and the fact that systems of oppression don't operate on the basis of one's personal identity (i.e. bigots aren't going to ask what pronouns you use before calling you slurs)". and then I've seen pretty much everyone who uses the TME/TMA language say "you're TME. you're not experiencing transmisogyny" to everyone — Black cis women, gnc men, intersex people, non-transfem trans people, etc — except for people who explicitly identify as a trans woman/transfem. and even then there seems to be a pressure to be binary and/or medically transition. if you're going to say only transfem-identifying people are TMA then genuinely what is the point of having that language other than to appear slightlyyyyy more inclusive (though not in actuality) and to obfuscate your point to people who aren't already waist deep in online trans discourse. unless the point is of course to create us vs them mentalities in the trans community and essentialize the trans experience into two competing sides and othering people who try to have good faith intracommunity discussions. and this whole thing is just frustrating as a very agender person who refuses to be grouped in as "transfem" or "transmasc" like stop trying to draw binary boundaries around nonbinary identities and then getting frustrated when people don't fit in. you're never going to find a progressive way to stereotype & essentialize genders even if you use a guise of being trans inclusive.

Unfortunately the point is of course to create us vs them mentalities in the trans community and essentialize the trans experience into two competing sides and othering people who try to have good faith intracommunity discussions.

[the-delta-quadrant]

when did the gender reveal podcast go from just interviews with all kinds of trans people to constantly platforming people who are antitransmasculine and exorsexist? even tuck themself keeps leaning into the antitransmasculine exorsexist bit, despite him being nonbinary and transmasc.

like they had a binary trans woman on who kept going on rants about trans men and nonbinary people on her twitter. i can't remember her name for the life of me. but WHY would you platform someone who openly hates on other trans people? i know for a fact they wouldn't have invited buck angel who does the same shit because when a trans woman does it it's seen as "punching up".

then not that long ago tuck literally said that transmascs shouldn't talk about their oppression in front of trans women because "it might be annoying to them". oh no. how annoying to know that other people in your community are also oppressed.

and today he's platformed the worst person yet: a self-identified transsexual woman (probably binary and white, prove me wrong), who

thinks the word transgender is bad because it includes both men and women, and she doesn't want to be associated with "male privileged" trans men, and then she said "i'm including nonbinary people in that" because somehow we're men now who have binary and cis privilege

thinks "transgender" is a bad term because by being gender neutral it centres trans men (literally WHERE, trans men have historically been invisibilised and erased and actually thrown out of the community, most people who hear the term transgender picture a trans woman, not a trans man, or let alone a nonbinary person who of course is included in "men"

says all these baeddelist things and then in the last 5 minutes trying to denounce radical feminism by denouncing the terms TMA and TME (the only based thing she did, but it's hypocrisy)

thinks the term transgender is bad because it was created by multigender/genderfluid people who didn't medically transition in the 60s whom she sees as "not committing" because they "don't want to give up their privilege, something that's said about nonbinary people and/or trans people who don't medically transition all the time today, and she denounces the term transgender because why would she be associated with dirty nonbinary people who don't follow the same path she does? not to forget that transgender wasn't actually coined by those people, it was coined as a medical term and then adopted by them, but sure, write a history book while actually getting history wrong i guess, she'd also just call these people cis men despite them actually having said that they're both a man and a woman. of course you demonise and erase multigender people even in the past

thinks trans boys have an easier time transitioning than trans girls

as a medically transitioned, probably binary, trans woman talks as if she knows anything about the lives of nonbinary people, afab trans people as a whole & trans people who don't medically transition

thinks that "not transitioning" is becoming a more popular choice for trans people (??????? most trans people literally at least change their pronouns when they come out, unless of course you're talking about medical transition, in which case you're probably a truscum because social transition is transition)

acting like nonbinary transmascs are actually just trans men who don't want the responsibility of male privilege, something that tuck has also basically said before

using the terms transmasc and transfem interchangeably with trans men and women and of course with medical transition

acts like she cares about material realities but probably hasn't listened to more than one trans man, nonbinary person or non medically transitioning trans person because she's too busy speculating on what it's like for us (apparently we have male privilege while also basically being cis women)

just overall framing nonbinary as an inherently privileged identity, which is why there are less amab nonbinary people because all the afab male privileged people identify as nonbinary or whatever flawed logic (binary people shut up challenge, you can't be exorsexist towards amab multigender people by calling them cis men and then wonder why no amab nonbinary person comes out to you)

and the whole transmedicalist undertone of the show for a WHILE now that trans = medical transition, applying the term transsexual to all trans people, acting like being transsexual is a better way of being trans, acting like not wanting medical transition isn't valid; the only reason someone wouldn't medically transition is due to lack of access.

like holy shit what the fuck happened to this podcast.

the blatant exorsexism and antittansmasculinity doesn't become less hurtful and harmful when it's coming from and promoted by a nonbinary transmasc person.

[purplenidoqueen]

not to mention tme/tma is no fucking gender binary, the groups “transfems” and “non transfems; cis men, cis women, trans men, some nonbinary people, etc” is not a binary at all. if you don’t know what the terms mean or aren’t experienced with transfeminism, that’s fine, but don’t act like i hate men because you misunderstood my feminism.

The reblog that garnered these messages can be found here, and part one is here. Sorry if the tone was too sharp; I'm not super comfy playing defense for those who aren't here to defend themselves, but I'm sure as heck willing to do my best. I'd explained at the end of the post that garnered these responses that I am also a trans woman, but I don't mind that you missed it; I just feel that said experience is something to keep in mind.

Since this was split into two messages I'll have to respond in two parts, so bear with me. While I don't have much of an audience, it's important to me to head this off, so I'd appreciate it if anyone who reads this and agrees with my stances here also walks away with the message of patience and solidarity, and doesn't send messages her way for whatever reason. This isn't a callout and I don't believe in callouts; this is just how the inbox function works.

Anyway! Second:

"If you don't know what the terms mean"… I understand that some find comfort in the terms, but "transmisogyny exempt" and "transmisogyny affected" are years old and have gone through a number of phases. While they were well-intentioned at first, TMA and TME swiftly changed from inclusive terms to exclusive ones, used not only by trans women to exclude others from our struggle, but by others to exclude us from their own struggles. In many ways they are bullshit terms adopted and adapted by terfs and their allies, and when I say they are used to reinforce the gender binary, I mean it. They've been used at length to pit trans men, trans mascs, and AFAB nonbinary folk against us in an attempt to make detransition look more practical.

As for whether TMA/TME has any weight: Do you understand how many cis women have been hurt by transmisogyny? You can find stories about women ranging from Michelle Obama and Lady Gaga to Marie MacGowan, an eighty-six-year-old Irish cis woman with dementia who was assaulted and beaten by a transphobe for over forty minutes straight. Even men and mascs, cis or trans, can be hit by forms of transmisogyny if they don't meet the standards of masculinity to which society holds them! Trans men are routinely mistaken to be trans women and attacked by people who misunderstand the situation because only trans women have the spotlight in this patriarchal society! That's not to mention the complexities of growing up intersex, whether or not their lives were changed without their consent by "corrective" surgeries as infants. The binary of "affected" or "exempt" is too tidy to have much use. Fear-based hatred is too complicated.

Transmisogyny is a form of transphobia, which is at its root a form of homophobia, and we have to understand that segregating each other's experiences into exclusionary groups rather than inclusive ones is incredibly unproductive -- and exactly what the terfs, traditionalists, and other fascists are trying to enforce.

On the subject of transphobia as a whole vs transmisogyny, I was trying not to bring this up, but it's the only way I can think of to boil down my point in a way that matters. This is the post that convinced me to respond, in the hopes of sharing some thoughts and perspective.

Okay. This is important for one main reason: Why do you think it would be bizarre or noteworthy for trans men to react negatively to this tweet? I get the point of it, but it's phrased so poorly. Surely you can understand -- maybe you've experienced for yourself -- the feeling that arises when you try to live your happiest life as your chosen gender, only for terfs and their allies to say "You only feel like a X because you're a failed Y." Where does that stem from? Where does it lead? "Trans women are just men who are super gay." "Trans men are just women trying to climb the patriarchal ladder." It's disgusting! Maybe that's not a perspective that occurred to you in the moment, but that's why queer folk from all corners of the community should communicate our experiences to each other, isn't it? If your feminism includes seeing trans men "react bizarrely" to something you didn't understand, and giving them the squinty eyes instead of asking why, then it can't truly be feminism, because it can't truly be about equality.

This whole TME/TMA thing reminds me of the transmedicalist discourse, or of a decade ago when in some circles you weren't considered trans enough and "made the rest of us look bad" if you couldn't, or didn't care to, pass. Butch transfems, a cornerstone of the culture, used to get run out of social groups for being "fake women". It's all about finding the weakest link and cutting them out, over and over until the solidarity of a cohesive queer community becomes a more manageable series of dogpiles against smaller and smaller fragments of GSR minorities. Fuck that. None of us is worth sacrificing, not ace nor kinky nor enby nor queer.

It's been a long pair of long responses. Sorry for the wait, and for the attention. In any case, to boil my thoughts down in the least productive way possible:

"Individually we are weak like a single twig, but as a bundle we form a mighty faggot!"

[wheelie-sick]

I hate the terms TME and TMA, they are actually useless garbage and every time someone uses them they become even less useful garbage

people's experiences do not exist in neat little easily categorized binaries