#i feel like odysseus would be that person that is about to do something

[rin-solo]

You are absolutely correct to point this out. Tagging @glisten-inthedark because this feels like something you'll enjoy. The whole "7 years aren't as long for a god as for a human" thing aside, this just beautifully shows how differently they view each other.

To Odysseus, Poseidon was never more than just another obstacle to getting home. A much more competent, dangerous obstacle than any other, but still just an obstacle that he had no particular or special feelings toward beyond, "I have to avoid this guy." Then he spends 7 years at Calypso's and naturally forgets all about Poseidon because he just doesn't assume that Poseidon would care about him that much either.

... But Poseidon does. And that's the beautiful irony of it all ... To Poseidon, Odysseus is so much more than just a mortal who blinded his son that one time; if the Vengeance saga proves anything, it's this. Think about it—he doesn't mention Polyphemus at all anymore in this saga. Instead, he admits straight out that he's avenging "his reputation"—a fancy way of saying, "I'm hunting you for myself and my own reasons now."

And he does. He waited for him—not because of his son but because of himself. Because he does feel something for Odysseus as a person, be it hatred, indignation, or something entirely else. Whatever it is, it's personal for him, and for him alone.

He cares so much about being the one to kill him that he waits for a decade (even if that's only akin to, like, 10 weeks or something for a god, that's still 10 weeks of camping in front of someone's house to get their attention!) I don't think anyone would shame or fault him for letting Odysseus live anymore either, like I've seen some people say, especially since it was Zeus' decree that Odysseus be released.

No, Poseidon waited for Odysseus because Poseidon wanted to wait for him. Poseidon remembered Odysseus because he was "something" to him, as opposed to Odysseus, who just straight up forgot or assumed he got bored and/or had better things to do with his immortal life (a very fair assumption, honestly.) The fact that Poseidon didn't get bored and didn't have better things to do with his life tells us so much about his character that I could write a whole essay on it ... I've covered parts of it in my Get In The Water analysis and also this lil thing, but I might write a full essay on this someday.

And that's the beautiful, poetic, almost ... tragedy of it all since it's so clearly one-sided: Odysseus feels nothing—no hatred, no attachment, not even enough to consider he might still be after him—whereas Poseidon feels ... everything? A lot, at least.

It's literally a case of "the opposite of love isn't hate (or the other way around, either work); it's indifference." Odysseus is indifferent. But what you, dear god of tides, have is a very serious case of obsession. You might want to—oh, no, he can't hear me; he's passed out on some rock shore, bleeding profusely. We can only hope that being defeated, humiliated, and confronted with his vulnerability in this manner didn't only deepen his obsession. Why do I have a bad, bad feeling about this though ...

My favorite thing in Epic that we don't talk enough about is that during the Circe and Thunder sagas, Odysseus was pretty much aware that Poseidon was after him. But in Vengeance saga, considering his reaction at Poseidon's appearance in "Get in the Water", he kinda thought that Poseidon must've forgotten and let go until that time. BUT HE DIDN'T. THE MAN WAS OBSESSED WITH ODYSSEUS FOR SEVEN YEARS

[o3o-lapd-o3o]

menelaus: *taking a bleeding odysseus back to the achaean camp*

menelaus: odysseus, i beg of you. please, PLEASE go to the healer

odysseus: *stubborn* hey, i'm sorry. is this OUR stab wound?

[ithacantrickster]

Some headcanons about Diomedes and Odysseus I've been drifting o'er in the quiet nooks of thought.

How do they smile? Diomedes smiles with furrowed brows, as if he's internally judging himself for showing his amusement or joy sometimes- that kind of look that says "this is ridiculous". His laugh though, if it comes to it, is loud. Odysseus either smiles with his teeth or, more subtly, with his eyes- squinting as his face splits with a grin. His repertoire of smiles is vast, there is his diplomatic one, his genuine one... He is particularly known for smiling when everything is going to shits. Some find this very unsettling, but the truth is he is trying to smile to reassure those around him that everything is under control.

What is their 'tell' when lying? Odysseus tilts his head slightly to the side and idly runs his hand across the surface of whatever object is nearby, often the table if seated. He also has a tendency to over-explain, though this isn’t an anomaly, as he often over-explains in general (there are two wolves inside of Odysseus, one that over-explains the simplest of things and one that says something extremely difficult and stays quiet, observing how others bend their minds trying to figure out what the hell was he on about.) Diomedes, on the other hand, lies sparingly and briefly. I really like the idea that he rarely finds the need to lie, as deception typically stems from self-interest or a need to hide something personal, and Diomedes, shaped mainly by war, struggles to grasp how the truth could ever wound someone more than life can, in many creative ways in fact. There are far greater pains, he knows this. This actually makes him into a good speaker, raw honesty gives his words a level of conviction no liar could muster up. However, if he were to lie for personal reasons perhaps, he would avoid eye contact and say the lie while trying to look cool and nonchalant about the whole thing. Sthenelaus calls him out, grinning, seeing right through the guy. When Odysseus detects a lie however, he makes it into a little game, he would ask more question, forcing Diomedes to conjure up more lies, probing until Diomedes is very very irritated.

How do they relax after a long day on the battlefield? Diomedes retreats to his tent, sitting down silently and leaning against his spear. If exhaustion hasn’t fully got to him yet, he trains until he feels like he would pass out from exhaustion as soon as he would sit down (Tydeus was similarly full of energy, Diomedes has this after his father). Odysseus goes to wash himself and after that goes to mix his wine and settle into a cushioned seat in his tent. Neither man is often seen joining the revelry around the campfire after battle. Still, you can find Odysseus sneaking around on his tiptoes, in an attempt to avoid detection, wary of being dragged to the campfire by the soldiers. Where is he sneaking off to, with wineskin in hand or sometimes a full amphora of wine? To Diomedes's tent, of course.

[sciencegothic]

curious abt ur interpretation, but why do u think zeus turned on athena so suddenly after she completed the games?? a lot of people say it’s just because he’s a sore loser, but i think there’s more to it!! :0

hi, hello !! i do have some feelings about this !!

for me, i think it’s sort of, like, less about the fact that she won, and more what she stood for in winning? so, like, the fact that she managed to convince five other gods to set free a mortal man, the fact that she won for the sake of a mortal man - that’s what zeus can’t reason with

so, zeus does say:

No one beats me, no one wins my game!

which gives the impression that he is, just, a sore loser. that he cannot handle being beat. and, okay, i think there is like some truth to that. he is the god king, he does not lose at things. i think he expected that this would be a lot harder for her, that the other gods would care a lot more than they probably do. it’s the shock more than anything, then, that gets him. he didn’t expect to lose

but, also, before this line he says:

You dare to defy me? To make me feel shame?

and i think this part is important to consider. let’s look at it line by line. he use the word “defy”, which seems odd, because athena did exactly what he laid out for her to do. but i think in this case it’s more, that she’s defying him by aligning herself with a mortal. it really doesn’t help that the specific man in question is one that zeus himself punished personally. in his eyes, odysseus is weak and pathetic, he isn’t worth the mercy of the gods. athena had abandoned him at one point, and i think that shows her father’s will being reflected in her. if she - someone who has befriended odysseus, taken him under her win - was willing to turn her back on him, then the likes of zeus would have no sympathy for such a man, and thus it is a defiance that athena would suddenly turn back to helping him

she defies his will by getting this far in the game for the sake of odysseus. actually, i think zeus had hoped the game would change her mind, show her the “godly” perspective. the fact she still holds her ground after it, then, is defiance

okay, and then zeus talks of “shame”, athena making him “feel shame”. again, this ties a lot back into what we just covered - zeus is ashamed that his own daughter would fight this hard for a mortal whom he hates. that she would face five gods who try to sway her opinion and still come out standing by odysseus. athena is zeus’ favourite daughter, after all. he would surely then expect that she would always align herself with him or his morals, so to see her stand before him after playing his games, games designed to force her hand, and for her still want his help - that is a cause for great shame for the father

now, looking at the wider context of the musical, we see that zeus is “fair” (at least by his own standards). he gives odysseus two choices across the course of the musical, in regards to the baby and in regards to his men. in both cases, he doesn’t force odysseus either way to choose, and when he does make his choice, zeus doesn’t interfere any further. at the start of god games, he gave athena a choice. to face the other gods OR face him. by his own standard set before, when athena chooses to face the gods and wins, zeus should stand by that. it is fair.

but he doesn’t. and for me that’s what shows that this is so much more than just a sore loser. this is a god who is going against his agenda in order to punish his daughter - that’s something that runs a lot deeper than “aw, i lost”. he didn’t expect athena to win, no, but that’s because he always expected her to come back to her senses (his reason) before the game was up. she didn’t. that is a great defiance of his will, and that is a great shame on him as her father

zeus is all about pride, we see that most clearly in thunder bringer. his daughter - his favourite, perfect daughter - has essentially just embarrassed him in front of all these other gods by beating his game for the sake of someone he has previously sought to punish. she has, in front of all these other gods, shown that his faith in her was misplaced, because she is willing to defy his will. this is a god king who could not bring someone around to see his reason. this is a father who has realised in that moment that his daughter is not who he thought

so, okay, yeah, this is very long and ramble-ly (i just woke up, so i do apologise) but TLDR, it’s about pride and shame and zeus’ sheer fury that the game he designed for athena to lose - or to, at least, bring her back to his reason - did not work. she still stands against him for the sake of one, mortal man, and that is a defiance he cannot have

[lunee43]

Okay soooo I might get bashed for saying this but unpopular opinion coming and a rant hopefully this is a safe space;

.

.

Six hundred strike was amazing musically: unlike many I enjoyed the beginning of the song but by the end I was a bit put off because how does Odysseus, a mortal defeat a literal god, not just a god but POSEIDON god of the fricken sea and earthquakes? Like it’s a cool concept but it’s just… makes Poseidon look and seem weak then in the ocean saga. Sure Odysseus became a “monster” but he’s still a mortal, I also find the “six hundred strike” silly like Odysseus did that?…. Using a wind bag?

I enjoy the concept but the plot kinda turns it off for me (not that it’s bad please don’t bash me) Poseidon is one of the 3 major gods, I feel like Odysseus was made to be too overpowered I’d understand if there was a power boost or divine intervention. Poseidon is made to seem weak which contradicts seeing him as a threat. It strays from the original Odyssey way more in this song, and the song is very amazing though I find it silly how Poseidon was defeated and how Odysseus is way too over powered.

And let’s talk about the animation, the person who made it is so very talented but I feel it doesn’t fit, the jet pack windbag? Boss battle? Interesting but it really put me off when I listened and watched it it kinda ruined the aspects for me.

Overall in the end I feel six hundred strike had a good concept and was very great musically but I personally didn’t like the plot of Odysseus defeating Poseidon so easily I mean the man has many different powers aswell? Anyways this is just my personal opinion

Another rant: Also I loved the song “I’m not sorry for loving you” though I feel like if I even said that out loud I’d be bashed by the fandom because, yes, calypso is a bad person I know but the song is really nice and musical it doesnt mean I like the things she’s doing to Odysseus.

Another rant (apologies); I feel like everyone is too blindsided with Odysseus, a lot of people blame everyone but him a lot like he’s just a “cinnamon roll who loves his wife so much and the crew are all a-holes” because like eurylochus he also made mistakes aswell he tries to keep his crew alive abd get home but we do have to accept that this was from Greek mythology he is a flawed character aswell and I enjoy him for that. It makes the audience connect with Odysseus.

Another thing, wisdom saga— I feel Telemachus is used like a child a characterization of a child or teenager unlike the 20 year old he is. It’s a bit off putting for me. And it’s possible to make him innocent and grown such as the use of Polites. Personally he’s like an embodiment of a child and it’s weird to me because he’s a prince and will be king, shouldn’t he have some roles?

Now another thing connecting onto what I just said about “Odysseus does no wrong” ALOT of people in the fandom seem to use Eurylochus as a scapegoat for their hatred and anger to who’s at fault when it’s really the gods and fate, it’s just something the fandom has created to put the anger on why Odysseus couldn’t get home quickly, and I can understand because we look through Odysseus’s perspective throughout the musical. But personally I feel like Eurylochus gets too much hate he is sadly the scapegoat. Even the crew, but it’s saddening because they also have lives, they had family, they are mere mortals what are they to do? What would you all do in these situations if you didn’t know Odysseus’s plans and inner monologues? How would you act?

It’s honestly saddening you can’t like eurylochus without a person spewing about why they hate him, heck I’ve even seen just simple cute TikTok and art about the man but people place hatred within the comments about the character. And it’s only him, you could like Odysseus, polites, perimedies elpenor, Circe, etc. but hate Eurylochus?

<<This is all I have to rant about this is a safe space on my acc for all opinions so you can comment your own opinions, just don’t be mean to eachother>>

(I’m most likely gonna get hate or bashed sadly for having these opinions though I genuinely enjoy the musical a ton. I feel the fandoms grown a bit toxic lately.)

[kytiapseud]

In Defense of Epic Manwhore au

Okay, so I’m kinda nervous to post this but I feel like it should be said. I hope I tagged correctly for the topics I discuss in this. So, in defense of the Manwhore au as for the concept being coerced, it’s not like the god(s) said ‘you’ll die if you don’t have sex with me’. Odysseus is the one who brings it up. Although yes, the line of consent there is a bit murky with Odysseus more doing so to get out of situations rather than because he wants to. It’s totally valid for some fans to not be a fan of the au, not everything in fan spaces is for everyone. You are entitled to your opinion and get to make your fandom experience safe for you. There is something I saw though that felt like commentary about those who came up with/ enjoy the au. To me this felt close to attempted fandom censoring or those who try to ‘cleanse’ all fandom content to what they think is morally correct. Again, it is fine if you want to share your thoughts on something. But I hope no one comes after those who do enjoy the au. I haven’t seen that happen yet, I’m hoping it doesn’t. But the generalization about what it says about those who enjoy the au doesn’t sit right with me. For reasons like I mentioned above, about worrying it could turn into attempted censoring. Especially if anyone tries to get others to agree to black-and-white thinking about what they think is true. That could easily turn into justification to harassment, which I have seen in fandom spaces before. Particularly with anti-proshippers.

There may be valid criticisms to this au concept, but that doesn’t mean everyone who is a fan likes it for the same reasons. Let me address some of what I’ve seen though. The joking about Odysseus being a Manwhore coming from homophobia. Yeah, that’s possible (although personally I feel like a homophobe is more likely to not even mention gay things.) I don’t think that’s always the case though. I know there was one animatic I saw, the first thing I saw for the au, that had a joke in it that I didn’t like. I don’t judge this creator, and in fact it’s a common joke I’ve seen. Particularly with people wishing they didn’t see something. It just doesn’t vibe with me. In no way do I think that those who say such jokes have something wrong with them. People have different senses of humor and I think some use such jokes as a way to cope.

Anyways, I think some of the humor more comes from how unexpected it would be. I mean, we have a war captain facing foes who instead of choosing to fight goes for seducing them. It’s certainly interesting. I know some of the jokes come from the others not involved in the coupling being just shocked or grossed out. I think that more comes from like not wanting to see someone else talk about or get busy with another? I mean, some of these men probably consider each other to be like brothers. I imagine that would be weird. I think homosexuality wasn’t taboo in ancient Greece, I’m not entirely sure though I may need to do more research on that. So there could be some homophobia to the jokes, but I don’t think that’s the case for everyone. It certainly wasn’t for me. It could also be lgbt+ fans wanting to see more gay stuff in the story. Gay shipping isn’t uncommon after all.

I don’t think everyone who talks about the Manwhore au has no problem joking about sa. There can be many reasons why someone may enjoy a concept in media. You don’t know. Like how women are criticized for rape fantasies. I watched a documentary about sex once (I can’t remember which one this was in now) and there was a whole segment about the rape fantasy, discussing why this is an appeal to some women. It did not mean these women want to be raped of course. Part of it could come from a culture of feeling pressure to not experience any sexual feelings, so the scenario allowed them to experience something without feeling guilty about it. There isn’t always a clear explanation for why someone can find something sexy.

I think this started as a joke, but I wouldn’t be surprised if there were some who wanted something sexy in their Epic fan experience. I mean, having read the Odyssey in school (twice actually) I did not expect I would want to see Odysseus in such a scenario. But then I saw one sexy fanart of him with others and cough I ended up liking it more than I expected. Those who have seen my reblogs on this tag know heh.

There’s also the infidelity notion. I feel like given the situation, Penelope would understand. I also saw some comments that they could be poly, which is a concept I like for this. I’ve also seen mention that human relationships with gods have ended up tragically for the humans involved. I don’t think everyone who listens to Epic knows about that. I didn’t. But again, this goes back to it being fantasy. People enjoying picturing it the way they want to. It doesn’t have to be accurate to the myths. It’s fanfiction/au.

I think the infidelity notion to it didn’t bother me as much as others because in the original, he wasn’t faithful. Sorry for Odyssey spoilers I guess. Anyways, I was already used to him being a cheater. Although the one with Circe may match more with the coercion along the lines of ‘sleep with me for your crew’. The knife that’s been shown in some animatics wasn’t in the original. It’s been a while since I’ve read it so I’m not entirely sure about how that went down.

Referring back to if Odysseus wants it even if he was the one who offered (sorry if I’m all over the place with this, I have a lot of thoughts.) Seducing foes doesn’t necessarily mean he didn’t want it. There’s a character in a Sanders Sides roleplay I was in named Remy (Sleep), whose rp version was created/and played by the wonderful @queroze , who was proclaimed by them to be a manslut. His go-to to get out of situations, if he saw it was a fit strategy, was to seduce. Sure, he got into situations that weren’t great, but often he was the active one in the seducing. I wouldn’t say his go-to being to seduce meant it wasn’t always consensual. In fact, there’s many descriptions and some statements from Que themselves saying Remy loved bringing pleasure to his partners.

Then there’s the mention of the unlikeliness of the scenario actually happening. I don’t think this matters that much to be honest. It’s fandom enjoyment. Who cares if people want to enjoy something that doesn’t seem likely in canon? I personally couldn’t see seduction working, but that doesn’t mean I didn’t find the concept entertaining. Sure people shouldn’t insist it could occur to the creators. But aside from that, it doesn’t affect you. Enjoying fan spaces is way more fun if we let things stay peaceful.

I kinda want to write a fanfic now that adjusts to some of the critiques I’ve seen of this au. I know I said I probably wouldn’t, but I got inspired while planning this heh.

[a-d-nox]

the hogwarts houses in astrology

i'm going to work off of what i already have posted (no asteroids discussed after this post will be included or added after the fact). i would like to state that NO TWO CHARTS ARE THE SAME. what i am about to list out does not mean you will for sure need these exact things (or all of these things) to be resonate with a house - i don't know you personally this is a hypothesis. plus hogwarts is a fictional location. if you don’t understand my thought process feel free to comment with questions!

onto the post.

gryffindor

aries (1°, 13°, 25°) sun, mars, venus, and/or rising: they have spirt and courage fit for the house. the fearlessness of these people is just astounding.

aries (1°, 13°, 25°) or leo (5°, 17°, 29°) arthur (2597) and/or aspecting jupiter: the quest for the holy grail and the bravery of his fellow knights exemplify chivalry, loyalty, and the courage to fight for what is right.

aries (1°, 13°, 25°) or leo (5°, 17°, 29°) beowulf (38086) and/or aspecting mars: this was a hero who confronted monstrous foes like grendel and a dragon; harry potter bravery for sure but then again maybe beowulf inspired that witch that made this beloved series.

leo (5°, 17°, 29°) sun, moon, mercury, venus, and/or rising: bold, confident, and wishes to lead the way. also hi its a gryffindor lion - get it leo lion?? also the charisma that leo people have is equally to gryffindor people.

leo (5°, 17°, 29°) heracles (5143) and/or aspecting mars: heracles’ feats, including battling lions and hydras, highlight bravery and resilience, embodying the gryffindor spirit in overcoming formidable challenges.

sagittarius (9°, 21°) moon, mercury, and/or mars: nothing reminds me of hermione, ron, and harry like sag placements. they love having the freedom to do what they wish - they are rule breakers who want to explore. they are willing to take risks for the greater good too.

libra (7°, 19°) venus: loyal and brave when there people find a group they will do anything to protect them.

hufflepuff

taurus (2°, 14°, 26°) sun, moon, mercury, and/or venus: these people have very stabilizing energy which i feel like is common in hufflepuff characters. they bring many people comfort in times of chaos as they tend to be very consistent in how they act.

taurus (2°, 14°, 26°) or cancer (4°, 16°, 28°) demeter (1108) and/or aspecting moon and/or venus: these are the people who love unconditionally and would go to the ends of earth for the people they care about just like a hufflepuff would.

cancer (4°, 16°, 28°) sun, mars, and/or rising: no one is a nurturing and sensitive as these people. they are warm and comforting as well.

virgo (6°, 18°) mercury and/or rising: they pay attention to every detail like it is all very important. these are the people who will remember something small that others will forget thus making those around them feel special and grateful for their presence. they are acts of service people just like most hufflepuffs.

libra (7°, 19°) venus: they are peace loving and wish to create harmony for the group as a whole.

pisces (12°, 24°) moon: they are compassionate, empathetic, and intuitive just like a hufflepuff.

ravenclaw

gemini (3°, 15°, 27°) sun, mercury, and/or rising: curious demeanor; they love communicating in particular as a means to learn new things. quick wit / quick mind.

gemini (3°, 15°, 27°) odysseus (1143) / ulysses (5254) and/or aspecting mercury and/or mars: known for his cleverness and resourcefulness during his long journey home, his ability to think strategically and creatively is unmatched.

gemini (3°, 15°, 27°) or virgo (6°, 18°) athene (881) / pallas (2) and/or aspecting mercury and/or jupiter: goddess of wisdom, strategy, and warfare, this goddess embodies intelligence and creativity thinkinh. she is the prime example of the importance of knowledge/cleverness in overcoming challenges.

virgo (6°, 18°) moon: no one else will be out here analytically thinking in a practical cut and dry manner.

libra (7°, 19°) mercury and/or rising: i always think of socratic seminars when it comes to a libra. the air inspires the communication while the venus encourages the peaceful flow of information sharing.

capricorn (10°, 22°) mars: these people have the discipline required to doing studying like the people this how would. plus they are very strategic in their thinking - it reminds me of an expert game of chess.

aquarius (11°, 23°) sun, moon, mercury, mars, and/or venus: innovative. original. full of unique perspectives on problems. they need independence to full explore everything they wish to. unconditional thinking. they aren't afraid to question what everyone else simply accepts as the answer.

slytherin

aries (1°, 13°, 25°) moon and/or mars: "be aggressive; be-be aggressive"! they need to win like the house suggests winning and glory is very important - they will do so "by whatever means necessary".

aries (1°, 13°, 25°) and/or scorpio (8°, 20°) gilgamesh (1812): the legends focuses on ambition and the lengths one might go to achieve greatness, including deceit and manipulation...

gemini (3°, 15°, 27°) mercury: these people are adaptable and cunning - nothing escapes them...

taurus (2°, 16°, 28°) venus: with power and prestige comes luxury and wealth. this placement just screams slytherin aesthetic to me.

virgo (6°, 18°) rising: only this placement would have such a philosophy they plots and plans are of the utmost importance.

scorpio (8°, 20°) sun, moon, mercury, and/or mars: can't beat a scorpio here... it's the intensity, the secrecy, the determination... they have an innate willingness to fight for what they want most. they also tend to have a sharp mind - they understand a great deal and notice even more.

scorpio (8°, 20°) medusa (149) and/or medusa (149) aspecting pluto: transformed into a snake headed being, medusa represents cunningness and power of the misunderstood. she like the basilisk turns humans to stone reflecting both fear and strength, aka the complex relationship with power commonly found in slytherin house.

scorpio (8°, 20°) or capricorn (10°, 22°) medea (212) and/or medea (212) aspecting mercury, mars, and/or pluto: she uses her skills and cunning to achieve her goals; thereby demonstrating both ambition and the darker aspects of power, especially in regards to her quest for vengeance.

capricorn (10°, 22°) sun, venus, and/or rising: it's their ambition and the discipline they have to become successful. they determined to succeed. not to mention they are loyal - which is very common among slytherins...

loke (4862) aspecting mercury, neptune, and/or pluto: the trickster god, embodies cunning and cleverness. he tends to use his intelligence to manipulate situations for his own benefit.

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[rin-solo]

Is it just me, or should we maybe talk about Poseidon's final line to Odysseus, "After everything you've done, how will you sleep at night?" some more?

Thank you to my lovely mutual @glisten-inthedark for making me think even more about the Vengeance saga ending than I already was because there is SO much there to unpack.

Because, like, if you think about that line for more than 2 seconds ... what the hell even is that? Only a complete 180 turn from his "You are far too nice; mercy has a price" attitude.

First and foremost, it feels like such a human thing to say, not least because of his tone. I don't think it is mockery or anything of the sort; it took me a while to notice, not least because he is speaking in a chopped voice due to his injuries, but he actually has the same genuine tone of voice as in his "I can't," one song earlier.

In short, it feels like something someone would say after being shown a glimpse of mortal vulnerabilities and pains, the way that I am convinced he was (for more on that, check out my full torture scene essay; I believe it's one of my best ones.)

Like, my man, are you genuinely asking the guy you specifically tried to make more ruthless how he's going to live with this newfound ruthlessness? What are you so concerned for? That it's too much? Why would you think that? Maybe ... because you've been there yourself? Is that it?

The funniest part to me here is that Odysseus is not nearly as "monstrous" as Poseidon would view him as. Poseidon only sees the "monstrous" actions, which he knows ... but Odysseus, at that point, is so much more than ruthlessness (more on that also in my essay.)

And yet here he is, essentially asking Odysseus, "How will you live in my shoes?" because that's the image that he now has of Odysseus; when he saw Odysseus wield the trident, he saw him in his own shoes, and due to personal limitations, Poseidon cannot comprehend that Odysseus isn't actually committing to a life with his philosophy because he probably doesn't understand that there is a middle way.

Honestly, the more I think about the effects such an exposure to vulnerability would have on Poseidon, the more I worry for him.

Some people point out that this defeat may have ultimately been pointless because the moment Poseidon recovers, he could just immediately come after Odysseus and drown his island or whatever he wants ... He won't do that. I can't tell you why I know this, but I am like 100% sure that he won't.

Physically, he will recover. But emotionally/mentally? My man is f*cked ... and that's putting it lightly. He will feel the effects of this exposure excruciatingly for a long, long time ... Because, in order to fully recover from this, I wager he would have to actually process what happened there and reflect on his own actions in the way that Athena did ... which we all know he won't do.

Athena managed to use Odysseus' confronting her with her own flaw/fear to reflect and grow, which is why she had that beautiful character arc and learned to open her heart. Poseidon? I mean, maybe in a couple centuries, I don't know ...

... If I had a nickel for every time that Odysseus out-topped humbled a god to the point of being forced to confront their own vulnerability, I would have two nickels, which isn't a lot, but it's weird AWESOME that it happened twice. Keep slaying, king; they need it.

[grape-jucie-dog]

Yk. I was working on an Athena animatic.

I was using the song "It's All So Incredibly Loud" and I ended up getting like 30 seconds in out of the... 4 minutes and 20 seconds I was supposed to do 💀

The animatic was supposed to show how Athena was feeling during the 10 years she was away from Odysseus. REGRET would show up as a small Odysseus, following her around everywhere. At first, she tries to ignore it. Only she can see REGRET. But then it starts watching her sleep. It starts giving her nightmares. Over the years, it starts to grow bigger and bigger, until it's a towering monster over her, a monstrous version of the person she was supposed to protect.

Throughout the animatic, Athena would grow more and more disorganized. Her hair is a mess, there's dark circles under her eyes, she's missing an armor piece or two. The bigger REGRET gets, the more panicked Athena would look, as the monster follows wherever she goes. She starts snapping at those trying to help her, clearly noticing that something isn't right with her. Towards the end of the animatic, Aphrodite is able to see the monster, as it clings onto Athena, giving Aphrodite a wicked grin.

Eventually, by the end, Athena breaks. She pulls out her spear, ready to take the monster on.

Until it flashes to a young Odysseus, about 12 years old, looking terrified.

Athena immediately drops the spear, as "Odysseus" and REGRET disappears. She crumbles to the floor breathing heavily, looking down at her trembling hands, horrified at what she almost did. The animatic would end with Athena screaming one last time.

Here are some concept sketches I had for the animatic

[merp-blerp]

TW: Discussion of sexual assault and suicidal ideation

I've been seeing some debate about Calypso and whether or not she sexually assaulted Odysseus and I want to throw in my two cents.

I'll say straight out of the gate that I don't currently like her much. I feel pretty icky about her personally.

Comparing Ody's behavior in Epic prior to "Love in Paradise" vs during the song feels so... clearly different. He seems very traumatized by whatever has been happening on that isle. It almost feels out of character for him to consider dying instead of fighting to get home alive like he had been, but putting myself in his shoes I can see how he came to that through what's textually known. He has been trapped on that isle for 7 years—that's nearly a decade, with no way to get out, everyone he knows and loves dead or far away with no way to know where he is or if he's alive. While I obviously would never think that's a good decision, I can see how he got to the point of wanting to end it. And if he's been sexually assaulted like he was in The Odyssey, I understand it more due to how that can warp a person's mental health.

I've seen some say, "Calypso is just a sweetie who doesn't know how to love properly" (paraphrasing of an actual comment I've seen). Even if she really just doesn't know how to care for a mortal, as many of the gods seemingly don't, I think she understands her power over mortals with her "Bow down now to the immortal Calypso" comment. She also understands that Odysseus doesn't want her, with the first part of her response to Ody's threats being "Oh handsome, you may try". She knows that he may try to escape by killing her (even though she can't die). Honestly, why would she feel the need to trap him if she didn't know good and well that he would want to escape her? She knew what she was doing was something that would make him want to run. Calypso being a goddess automatically gives their dynamic a power imbalance of course. Even though the assault is only implied, the fact that she's trapping Ody against his will, super infatuated by him, and still says "Soon, into bed we'll climb and spend our time", makes me feel like the indication is clear. What's stopping her from trying to have "sex" with him (sex isn't sex without consent)? She's already ignored all his declines. She seems to think that forcing her "love" onto him will make him love her. Yes, she uses lovey-dovey language so I doubt it would've appeared violent, but sexual assault doesn't have to look violent and the perpetrator doesn't have to appear aggressive. It's telling that I've seen some say, "Save that energy for Antinous" because Antinous is much more obviously bad, but this kind of thing isn't always obvious. That kind of assault is still extremely traumatizing whether it's sugarcoated as if it's love or not. It's dismaying that some reactions to Calypso bypass her potential assaulting or "She's weird, but she seems to care for him!" And since the sexual part of the assault is technically subtext (for now, who knows about later), I'll say that even if Calypso didn't sexually harm him, she still forces physical and verbal intimacy onto him and traps him so he can't leave. We see that. That's still assault. The only reason why I don't feel similarly about Epic's version of Circe is that her intent wasn't to have sex with Ody but to distract and throw him off with talk of sex so she could stab him as he's vulnerable; Circe never wanted to have sex with Ody in actuality. Calypso's intent was romantic intimacy and she didn't care if Odysseus said no, she completely bypassed it. Calypso saying "You're mine, all mine" feels as threatening as Circe's "I've got you" was meant to be.

Anything can change between now and the next two sagas. It could either be fully confirmed or denied that sexual assault took place. I actually don't expect either, as I don't think Jay would go too deep into such a traumatic concept in Epic, but then again I also didn't expect suicidal ideation to be brought up at all and it absolutely shocked me when it was, so I could be wrong. But whether it's confirmed or not, I don't blame any Epic fans who don't like Calypso or even hate her over what she did and what it's implied she did. It's icky watching some fans tell others they shouldn't hate Calypso because of this or that as if this isn't a sensitive and complex topic. It's creepy. I don't think we should tell people not to hate a character associated with sexual assault. The sexual assault might be subtext, but subtext is important and sometimes is implemented intentionally. Not every part of a story is going to be given to you at face value. Just because "Epic didn't say that" doesn't mean that the implication doesn't matter. People interact with stories in different ways, so you can disagree with others—no one can take that from you, but you don't get to tell someone they can't feel a certain way about a character. I don't like saying this because I really shouldn't have to put it in this perspective for it to be understood, but I can't help but feel like if Calypso and Ody's genders were swapped some people would treat this implication differently. Sexually or not she hurts him.

Normally I don't like taking lore from The Odyssey and automatically applying it to Epic, as Epic has changed a lot of rules from The Odyssey because Jay wants to tell this story his own story. For example, I personally choose not to assume Eury and Ody are brothers-in-law in Epic like they are in The Odyssey because that hasn't been stated in Epic so far. But to me, the implications of Ody's sexual assault are there enough for me personally to think that it might take place in both stories. Jay seems to want Epic to be accessible to many people, so it doesn't surprise me that this element of The Odyssey was brought up in a more subtextual/"hinted at" way.

Calypso is a very interesting character, maybe the most out of all the Epic antagonists so far for me, but we don't have to think of her as not doing anything wrong in order to enjoy that character, her songs, her cute physical character design, or Barbara Wangui's beautiful voice.

[The remainder of this post contains potential spoilers for the unreleased (to date) Vengeance Saga under the cut]

[Edit: Now complete with some post-Vengeance Saga release points]

Another defense of Calypso I've seen is that in the snippets for "I'm Not Sorry for Loving You", Ody says he loves Calypso, but not in the way she wants him to. This could mean they're friends and therefore doubt about the sexual assault could be cast.

It's hard to assess this because the saga's not out yet, but it's worth remembering that abuse can come out of care, in a complicated way. You can care for someone so much you end up hurting them, usually out of wanting to control them. Calypso seems to fit that concept. And most Epic snippets don't give full context, naturally, so who knows why Ody says this at the moment. Maybe he means it, or maybe he's bluffing to guarantee he'll get what he wants (which is to be set free in this instance), like when meeting Athena, or to appease a god, like when "apologizing" to Poseidon in "Ruthlessness". And of course, victims don't have to hate their perpetrators if they choose not to. Odysseus can care about Calypso and she can still have hurt him really badly. Both of these things can be true.

The way I read it, Calypso doesn't love Odysseus like she thinks she does. She's infatuated by him and cares for him enough to not be obviously cold like all the other obstacles Ody faced initially are. She declares that she loves him as soon as he wakes up on her isle without knowing him at all. She didn't even know his name. The washed-up person on her isle could've been anyone and she likely would've "loved" them. Calypso only loves Ody because he stops her loneliness, not for who he is. When she begins to state that she loves him she doesn't even know him. Over the 7 years, she seems to have potentially gotten to know him a bit, saying "I know your life's been hard", but Odysseus himself asserts that she doesn't really know what he's been through. You can call someone (against their will, let me remind you) "my dear, my love for life" all you want, but that doesn't mean you love them. Ody's her first companion in years if not ever, of course she cares for him on a basic level. She won't kill him or let him jump off a cliff. But she doesn't love him or treat him like a human and obey his boundaries and wants. She treats him like an object or pet she owns and has to guard.

In "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You" Calypso says that Ody is all she's ever known because she was abandoned. It's understandable that she would latch onto a living creature after being alone for so long. But that's not necessarily love, at least not to me. If I love someone I wouldn't bypass their refusal to do something. And I wouldn't trap them with me and not let them go, even when they're about to jump off a cliff because they see no way out. I'm not sure if Calypso means to bring malice, she at least says she "bring(s) no pain", but she does regardless or if she intends to. Calypso hasn't had anyone in her company, let alone someone to love, for so long, maybe in her whole life. That's why she doesn't know what love is, so of course when she catches fickle feelings for Odysseus she assumes that's love and has no clue what to do with her "love", as she admits in "I'm Not Sorry For Loving You". Calypso's actions are understandable, but that doesn't mean they're excusable or not abusive. What she does to him is understandable, but selfish and only serves herself, which isn't what you do to someone you love. Note that the way I use understandable here does not equate to forgivable, it just means conceivable. And her apology to him really waters down the magnitude of her actions, saying she "pushed" him, "came on too strong", and that her love might've been "too much" for Ody.

I apologize for this being such a long rant, but I wanted to cover all the excuses for Calypso I'd seen and speak my mind on why I think they're misguided at best.

Post-Vengeance Saga Edits:

Now that The Vengeance Saga has been released, I can comfortably say that I still don't like Calypso, and I think this saga just encourages me to do that. I wasn't anticipating the entirety of "I'm Not Sorry for Loving You" to basically have been featured in the snippets. I was expecting the official song to give more context, maybe showcasing Ody and Calypso having a dialogue, but no! That was really it. And I'm honestly happy for it. It seems like the show recognizes that Calypso is in the wrong, with the way we aren't meant to really ruminate on Ody leaving her. The excuse I talked about above using the theory that Calypso and Odysseus would turn out to have been friends because he said he loved her? I just don't think that held much water by release. I particularly want to point out the way @gigizetz drew Ody's face as he leaves in the commissioned animatic from Jay's stream:

While I can't say for certain that he doesn't mean the "I love you" in some way... he doesn't look like he means it to me. There's no lovey-softness in his eyes, like you might have when you look at your friends when saying I love you. He looks beaten down. Tired. Above, I proposed that Ody might just be blowing smoke to further get what he wants from her. I don't think there's quite enough insight for me to say I was necessarily right on that, but Ody doesn't actually appear that attached to her, certainly not enough so for me to confidently say that I think his "I love you" is genuine. He doesn't even look like he'll miss her, he looks beyond ready to go as she shouts, not pained by her tears. Honestly, Ody might've just said that so she'd stop talking so he could leave. Now there is one more saga left, so maybe he'll wistfully mention or remember her, but I'm not really expecting it based on the official visuals that Jay okay'd. Humbly, I'll say that I don't think Odysseus feels much for Calypso. We don't get happy moments of them together and not even a proper goodbye filled with mutual pain. We just get her backwards apology that basically says, "Sorry I hurt you, but not fully. Shut up and let me talk about me and justify why I trapped you. Wish you'd stop rejecting me despite the fact that I've hurt you. Let me shout that I hate that I fell for you—only because this hurt me unlike I wanted when I kidnapped you—who cares if it hurt you." This moment is not at all a redemption for Calypso. It's her downfall. Her negative character arc. She didn't want to be alone so bad she trapped a person against his will and now she is alone forever (in this show). She can't even have Ody as a friend (and she won't accept purely his friendship anyway based on how the song ends). Who knows how different things would've been if she had just been more... normal when he washed up on her isle? The situation was tragic for them both in different ways, but I'm not sorry for Calypso. Calypso is so interesting as a character. Side-lining her actions just bards us from being able to assess her.

[v3suvia]

On Diomedes of Argos.

Typically, when people think about their favorite heroes of the Trojan siege, they think of the likes of Achilles, or Odysseus, or even Agamemnon (or if you’re based, Hector.) And while these are all valid to whatever extent— because let’s be real, no one is choosing favorites based on who has the purest moral standpoint— they’re not exactly remembered for the noblest of reasons.

Achilles spends half of the Iliad inside his tent as a sulky burrito, and the other half slaughtering Trojans and crying over the consequences of his own actions. Odysseus is a chronic liar, and Agamemnon is Agamemnon. But at the end of the day, they’re still remembered (for better or for worse, really.)

Though, on the topic of Homeric heroes, I feel there is one who is often overlooked despite achieving great feats over the course of the epic; Diomedes of Argos. (Note: arguably the most metal of the Achaean heroes at Troy.) So, let’s rant talk about him!

Diomedes was one of the key players in Homer’s Iliad— a recount of the last year of the Trojan siege. Being summoned to fight under oath, Diomedes headed his fleet of 80 ships to Ilium. As well as having a whole chapter dedicated to how kickass he was [read more about that whole thing here], the king of Argos was also a master strategist, and extremely noble— not just in his war efforts.

For example, there are multiple points in the Iliad where he checks the leader of the Trojan expedition, Agamemnon, calling him out on his cowardice or for otherwise being an inadequate leader, [Book 9; ‘Agamemnon, I will begin by taking issue with you over your proposal… do you really believe the Greeks are the cowards and weaklings you say they are? If you for one, have set your heart on getting away, then go.’] [‘Zeus has granted you many things… He gave you the sceptre of power and the honour that comes with it, but he did not give you courage— and courage is the secret of authority.]

And one instance where he truces with the Trojan hero, Glaucus— both of them exchanging armors (on an active battlefield, btw) to honor the fact that their grandfathers had been allies, [Book 6; ‘So let us avoid each other’s spears... And let us exchange our armor so that everyone will know our grandfather’s friendship has made friends of us.’]

He is also one of the only soldiers in the war who avoids committing hubris in the entire epic, which is probably the most telling of all his virtuous traits.

Diomedes also has a proverb named after him! ‘Diomedean Necessity/Diomedean Compulsion', which basically means when someone does something for the greater good (despite the reluctance of the person in question.)

This is taken from the myth of Odysseus and Diomedes taking the wooden statue of Athena— dubbed the Palladium— from Ilium. During this heist, Odysseus tries to stab Diomedes in the back to steal the acclaim of taking the Palladium for himself.

Rather than punishing Odysseus on account of betraying his ally for personal gain, Diomedes ties him up and drags him back to camp instead, because he knew the Greeks couldn’t win the war without Odysseus’ wisdom.

Anyway, why the rant? Sure, I could sit here and convince you that he’s the coolest Greek hero, but what would I be trying to accomplish in doing so? Well, it’s simply because while every other Homeric hero is recognized and represented in modern media, Diomedes isn’t.

He wasn’t even mentioned once in Troy (2004), the film adaptation of the Iliad! Despite him being the focus of multiple chapters in the book, as well as playing a big role in the Achaean army’s over-all victory.

I’m sick of everyone (and by that, I mean most modern media) depicting him as though he was just some dude™ in the Iliad when he was actually (from a mildly biased standpoint) one of the best of the Achaeans at Troy.

TLDR; Diomedes of Argos = Based. He solos ur favs (probably. He almost killed Ajax the greater at Patroclus’ funeral games 💀)Put him in more movies/shows/games so me and the other two Diomedes fans can be happy.

[katerinaaqu]

Zeus was following Justice by helping the Trojans, Hera was unaware and opposing (An Employing Ritual analysis based on Homer's Iliad)

So many people out there have read the first rhapsody/book of Iliad and many speak badly on how Zeus acts at the council or how he silences his wife with a threat, telling her to "stay put" or basically to...keep her mouth shut because that is his will. And then of course we have all the usual talk about mysogyny and all that stuff

I am not going to argue that indeed in ancient Greece equality beteween men and women was not a thing and absolutely if your husband nowadays told you to shut up and stay out of the way obviously in modern day ears sounds like the biggest red flag ever. Of course despite Homer writing some of the most powerful female characters ever in both their behavior and their position, he still reminds to his audience the marital duties of a wife through the behaviors of en in mythology. Of course no one can deny that indeed despite the fact that Hera is his co-regent she is inferior in power and position than her husband due to the laws of marital duties of that time. However it also needs to be noted how incredibly human the characters act; Zeus gets furious at the nagging of his wife (his wife opposes him before his family as well) so he loses it in anger and threatens her. Sounds like the average couple fight at a family dinner XD

However the analysis is not about the marital duties (or not entirely! Hehehe there will be a mention on Zeus's threat at the end of this analysis). Is what brought that fight to begin with and that would be Zeus's decision to listen to Thetis's request. Why is he following justice and why Hera even though she brings valid arguements is unaware of certain details? Okay bukcle up for this will be probably long;

The Employing Ritual and Thetis's Request

In ancient Greek literature we often see a ritual take place. It is quite similar to the customs of Xenia; a holy unwritten law that humans and gods alike obey which is the employing aka when you make a request of someone or when you beg someone to do something for you. Culturally the ritual seems to be going like this; an individual falls on the knees of the person they want to be their benefactor and they hug their knees while making their request. The request could be anything from a simple favor till sparing one's life in a desperate situation (For example see Helen doing that to Menelaus when she begs for her life, something I also memorize to my fanfiction , or Odysseus begging Circe to let them go from the island of Aeaea). In more formal occasions, the one making the request can also touch the chin or the person they employ to make their point even clearer

The power imbalance between two people is not necessary but of course by n large in mythology we see examples of the inferior in power person to beg a superior in power, like a commoner begging a king due to the fact that we usually have someone in a tough position that makes the request.

Then if someone needs to make a request, after finishing with the physical gesture, begins the verbal exchange. Usually the person in question brings up to their benefactor a favor they did for them before or try to appease to the person's feelings or both. So the request usually goes like this: "Please, if I ever did this good to you and you are good yourself and you respect the laws of the gods you shall do this favor for me" Then by n large, like it happens with the custom of Xenia, the benefactor has no real ability to refuse. In theory they can refuse the employing party but that would make them unjust to the eyes of the gods so by n large the benefactor knows that he has no way of refusing and he has the moral obligation to fulfill the request. Usually the benefactor finishes the exchange by promising to the employing party that they will do them the favor they request.

In the first Rhapsody of the Iliad, Thetis finds her son crying because he feels ashamed that Agamemnon removed his beloved price-woman Briseis from him and he wants revenge. He asks his mother to ask for Zeus to grant him that revenge and he tells her she should go and beg for it to him. Thetis obeys and flies to Olympus to find Zeus alone sitting on his throne.

And swiftly she sat close to him and she clasped his knees with her right hand while she touched him beneath the chin with the other and beggingly she spoke to Zeus son of Kronus the king: "Father Zeus, if I ever among the immortals have helped you with my words or my actions, fulfil me this wish; honor my son, who is destined by birth to die early, and still the king of men Agamemnon has dishonored him: by taking away his chosen price to have her himself. But you, Olympian Zeus, lord of council, honor him by granting victory to the Trojans till the Achaeans give back my son his honor"

(Translation by me)

So here Thetis basically uses all the tools she has. She starts by asking Zeus to remember her actions towards him, if she ever did something good, for him to remember it and then she transfers him her emotions; my son is destined to die young, she says (which ironically seems to be the case for Zeus himself since we know his own son Sarpedon is to die in battle in Troy, which is another interesting parallel created by Homer) and then she brings him before her wish; so that Zeus would grant victory to the Trojans in battle till the Greeks miss Achilles and give him back his honor. She even is essentially comparing Zeus to Agamemnon when she says "συ περ" ("but you") in one essence "Agamemnon has dishonored my son but you are different! You are just"

As we said before, not even gods can disobey the law of Cosmos! Zeus has no choice but to obey Thetis's request and grant her her wish. And it is clear that his bounding to her request doesn't give him pleasure. In fact Homer says that he stays completely still and silent. He is even processing in his mind what he can do on it because he has nothing personal against the Greeks. Thetis realizes his hesitation and she keeps holding onto his knees to make sure he knows they are still doing the ritual till he gives his response! In fact his hesitation is so long that Thetis needs to make her request a second time and this time she ups the game!

Give me your irrefutable promise and nod your head or refuse me, for I know there is nothing you are afraid of, I know very well out of all of you (here: the gods) I am the least honored!

(Translation by me)

Thetis here not only does she use an indirect threat (she implies that Zeus can refuse her because he is the king of gods. She basically says "sure you can refuse me this holy work. What do you have to be afraid of? You are the epitome of justice. Justice will not fall on your head!") and then she uses emotional manipulation. She basically says "oh sure dishonor me too! I am the least honored by all the gods so why not of you too?" To that Zeus is certain he cannot refuse her. In fact he already knew. However the fact that Thetis keeps pressing him he knows that there is no way around or toning her request down despite the fact that he, again, has no reason to do that to the Greeks and what is more he doesn't want to quarrel with his wife who is clearly helping the Greeks. In fact he calls her request "λοίγια ἔργα" ("sad work" or "wreched business") but he accepts. Because that is the just thing to do. And he nods his head to her.

But what favor was indeed Thetis insinuating here?

Achilles gives us the answer in the same rhapsody a few lyrics prior:

For I heard you many times at my father's palace bragging that only you came repell the shameful ruin of the son of Kronos, the lord of dark clouds, when the Olympians wanted to bind him; even Hera and Poseidon and Pallas Athena, but you arrived, goddess, and freed him from his binds, quickly calling the Hecatoncheir (one-hundred armed) whom the gods call Bariareon but all men call Aegaeon to tall Olympus, who is much greater in strength than his father and sat by the side of the son of Kronos, restoring his authority and the holy gods saw him and got scared.

(Translation by me)

So basically this grand favor that Thetis was referring to, for which she required her son's wish to be granted was Thetis coming to assist Zeus out of a coup that was staged by his own family! So there was absolutely no way that Zeus could refuse her by seer grattude alone yet alone now that he was the epitome of justice

Zeus follows his own laws.

Zeus is known for being the epitome of justice. The laws he imposes on humans by n large apply to him. He is setting an example as a ruler, as a god and as a king that he follows the very laws he establishes, making him just. Even if he himself doesn't agree or even if one should say the punishment towards all Greeks is unjust, Zeus must still follow his own rule, especially when Thetis employs him in the most official manner. Hera though does not follow the will of Zeus and chooses to not only disobey him and ride down with Athena at some point to assist the Greeks but also she does so by tricking and seducing Zeus to distract him and give an opening to the gods that assist the Greeks. Under this light it is HER actions that seem to be stopping justice (of course again one can argue that indeed it is unfair for the Greeks to suffer just because one king offended another) but by the laws of the Employing Ritual it was Zeus who was on the right.

However of course Hera either didn't know or she ignored the signs to it out of her love for the Greeks and so did Athena. And Zeus provided no information about Thetis and instead he chose to assert his dominance to the gods for his will instead.

Last but not least...

Why doesn't Zeus tell Hera who arrived on Olympus?

Zeus seems to avoid the fact that Thetis came to him even if Hera accuses him for it. Why then does he say that he helps the Trojans now "because he likes it" and he doesn't say he is bound by a promise? Some people correctly assume it is because he doesn't want to deal with her jealousy however there is a much deeper meaning to it. Sure it is Zeus we are talking about and surely he could speak out of seer authoritative nature just to say that no one has the right to tell him what to do and that his words are the law. It is possible but still no matter how someone sees it, he could have saved himself a lot of trouble if he had told Hera he is following a favor.

So why does he choose to simply show his dominance as a husband and not speak on justice? In my opinion that lies again to the reason why Thetis was there. She calls upon the return of a favor. But remember what the favor was? Thetis helped Zeus during a coup

Zeus doesn't bring it up because if he does bring Thetis up, he will also have to bring up his wife's treason!

Zeus doesn't seem eager to totally remind Hera of her act that is beyond simple jealousy or simply raising her voice at him. She had literally conspired with the gods to take him down! By that account alone she should be more severely punished than what she was. And all know that the gods received his pardon eventually when he restored order to the heavens. Somehow Zeus is unwilling to bring up the subject of treason because he doesn't want to bring the council of gods before such responsibilities again. He knows it is a done story, that he has offered his pardon and that the gods repented. He sees no reason to bring it up. By bringing the name of Thetis up and her favor, it would be bringing up the story of treason and that wouldn't just slide

Zeus actively chooses to assert his dominance as a husband and a father, rather than as a king and that in my opinion is not talked about enough. Yes in one way he humiliates Hera in front of all and Hera needs to be consoled by her son Hephestus but I feel like Zeus could easily have himiliated her as a traitor rather than a wife who spoke out of the line and that seems to me like a very much human emotion speaking in Zeus because yes, he doesn't like disobedience but at the same time he loves his wife and doesn't want to bring up her treason one more time.

[cowboys-tshot]

I keep seeing people call Eurylochus a hypocrite, and while I kinda agree, I also kinda disagree. Hear me out.

So, people's main thing with Eury is that he gets mad at Odysseus for sacrificing six men to Scylla, but he doomed all of the crew by opening the wind bag, and wanted to abandon 22 men-turned-pigs on Circe's island. (For anyone wondering where I'm getting that number, it's from The Odyssey).

But these events aren't really the same, or comparable. Let's take them one by one. (This is gonna be a long one, so I'll cut the post here for the sake of your timelines)

The wind bag. I fully understand why people are pissed at Eurylochus for doing this, and I am too. But you have to remember that he did not do this out of malicious intent. He did not know this would end in the eventual deaths of the entire crew. Even though Eurylochus was warned about the storm being inside the bag, none of them knew it would take them right to the Laestrygonians. He had no idea Poseidon was pissed off at Odysseus for blinding Polyphemus. It was a stupid decision, certainly, but the following events were not intentional on his part.

Circe's island. Eurylochus had no reason to believe there was any way of rescuing those 22 men. Circe's a goddess/witch. What the fuck are two human dudes gonna do about that? Odysseus didn't even know what he was going to do. He would not have had any solution if not for Hermes, which is not something Eurylochus could've predicted. It's pretty reasonable for him to think that those men were a lost cause.

Scylla. So far, all of the deaths have been "accidental:" 14 from Polyphemus, 543 from Poseidon/Laestrygonians, and 1 from Circe (RIP Elpenor). I am not attributing the 543 deaths to Eurylochus for the reasons detailed above. No one knew these deaths would happen. They were all sudden/unexpected. Let's take these next sixth deaths moment-by-moment:

Odysseus redirects the ship, using directions that no one else knew (Odysseus was reading the siren's lips, but everyone else was too busy catching the other sirens, and all of them had beeswax in their ears). Odysseus tells Eurylochus to light six torches.

One by one, Eurylochus watches every man that he handed a torch get brutally eaten. He himself is almost eaten, but he passes his torch off to someone else before he notices the correlation. He only realizes what's happening as the sixth man is about to die, and Eurylochus is too late to save him.

Odysseus won't even gaze at the blood left behind. But it's all Eurylochus can look at.

These deaths were planned. Odysseus knew what he was bringing his men into, and not only did he keep it from them, he sacrificed his men that didn't even know what was happening. And Eurylochus likely feels part of the blame, having been the one to light the torches, even if he didn't know the consequences of it.

Eurylochus has a right to be upset, to be angry. These are the first deaths that could have been prevented, because Odysseus could've simply not taken his men through Scylla's territory. But that's the only way to get home. Odysseus sees it as a necessary sacrifice, but Eurylochus sees it as needless. Because at this point, Eurylochus has given up hope that they'll ever get home. What is the point of sacrificing these men for a goal we will never achieve?

This is not a situation where one person is at fault. Odysseus and Eurylochus are both to blame. Like Scylla says, "There is no price we won't pay." Odysseus himself says, "You know you'd have done the same." People do stupid, dangerous, bad shit to survive. Odysseus sacrifices his men. Eurylochus still wants to live, he just doesn't see the point in trying to return to Ithaca. That's why he kills Helios's cattle. He is starving and he wants to live, even though he knows the consequences.

The whole point of all this is that people will do awful and/or stupid things to survive. Not just Odysseus.

[a-bottle-of-tyelenol]

Not sure how to properly word this, but I find it really interesting how EPIC!Odysseus subtly equates himself to being among gods, particularly when it comes to empathizing with EPIC!Eurylochus.

In Luck Runs Out, Odysseus specifically tells Eurylochus, “I need you to always be devout and comply with this or we’ll all die in this.” and I find that particularly interesting because “devout” is most often used in relation to religion and belief, as is the structure of complying with the words of a god because death is the only other option. And he does this right after he announces to the world that he is “neither man nor mythical” which inherently puts himself above his men.

Odysseus has moments of hubris, absolutely, but a lot of his more outwardly notable moments of arrogance are replaced with scenes that prefer to highlight his grief and humanity instead (specifically, I think of when he announces his name to the cyclops). It feels like, to me, a lot of Odysseus’ arrogance in EPIC is less straightforward. It’s not him galavanting about how he bested someone, it’s more about how he holds himself and his status above others. That isn’t to say it no longer exists— quite the contrary, actually. Odysseus is objectively selfish, as is Eurylochus and the crew, but just like in the Odyssey, his hubris is absolutely his undoing; it just looks a little different here.

“I took 600 men to war and not one of them died there, in case I needed to remind you.” is a moment where, yes the praise is deserved, but I think it’s a good one to showcase where he subtly uses his own capabilities as a way to diminish the concerns of his crew. It’s important to remember that Odysseus was Athena’s favorite and there are many situations in OG source material where she either saves his life or gives him a leg-up on the competition that he otherwise wouldn’t have had, even in something as benign as a race or game. Odysseus absolutely deserves credit, as he is still very intelligent and Athena picked him for a reason, but I have no doubt in my mind that she was a large reason for why he was even able to accomplish such a feat in the first place. And yet, he attributes it solely to himself here.

Now, it’s pretty evident that the crew are largely unaware of Athena’s interference so I’m not bringing this up to say the crew would side-eye this. I mostly bring it up because of the fact that Odysseus did it at all and how it adds to a reoccurring theme of Odysseus insisting that he is a man while also likening himself as a god. Odysseus’ mantra of being “just a man” is largely not meant to be entirely literal and is supposed to represent his guilt, remorse, empathy, and love— characteristics that are mostly attributed to humanity— but I still think this goes hand in hand with Odysseus as a character wanting to have his cake and eat it too.

You can see this a lot in how Odysseus approaches the gods. In my interpretation, he thinks of himself on some kind of equal terms as them— he thinks that he can win Aelous’ game, he thinks he can outsmart Poseidon, he thinks that he can handle Circe, and he thinks he can argue back with Athena and directly disrespect her because they are equals— friends. Honestly, the only time he doesn’t really do this is in the beginning with Zeus and Astyanax, which is interesting because it is also his interaction with Zeus in Thunderbringer that seems to stop this mindset all-together (I don’t personally think that Odysseus believes himself to be equals with Poseidon in GitW and SHS, which is largely why I believe he won, but that’s a topic for another day).

(Also, outside of the story, you see it in how Jay gives him electric guitar (electronic music is associated with magic), waited like eight songs for the first time we hear Odysseus’ name (a decision similar to how we never actually hear ‘Zeus’ and is even highlighted by the way that he reveals Athena’s identity in Warrior of the Mind and not his own), and how he has a song with his name (just like the monsters do). This isn’t super relevant, I just think it’s interesting.)

Anyways, regardless of how right he is about these things (because, admittedly, he often is), it says a lot about him and how he perceives the situation he’s in that he can think these things at all.

Something else that’s interesting to note: likening yourself to a god, even indirectly, is really bad culturally. The gods find it disrespectful and that’s why you see a lot of myths or moments about people being punished for saying that they’re as or more beautiful than Aphrodite, as or more strong than Ares, as or more smart than Athena. In the Odyssey, Telemachus visits someone’s palace (I think it was Menelaus but ngl I don’t remember) and he whispers about how it must be what the palace of the gods looks like because of how glorious it is and he is immediately corrected because doing something like that is really bad and is usually/always seen as disrespectful to the gods.

Which brings me back to Eurylochus, a regular guy who has the experiences of someone without divine blood or intervention and also watches as his captain and king, even indirectly, puts himself on a level where he does not belong. Odysseus, as incredible as he is, is not nearly as divine as he makes himself out to be. He’s the great-grandson of Hermes— not the son, not even the grandson, the great-grandson— and he is the king of Ithaca, a small island that isn’t actually all that wealthy. In Ancient Greece standards, he’s not hot shit enough to warrant this belief, and Eurylochus knows that.

Obviously, Athena’s mentorship does change things a bit, but I wonder how much of Odysseus’ inherent belief that he is above his fellow man leaked into his behaviors. How obvious was it to Eurylochus, to his crew? How do you go from seeing someone like Achilles or Sarpedon with direct links to godhood that fell despite their parentage, and someone like Odysseus, who is touched by the divine but not even half as close as the others? How do you watch them fall and then see Odysseus continuously getting too close to the very things that have killed so many heroes before?

It isn’t just that Eurylochus is a normal man— it’s the fact that he views Odysseus as one as well, and Odysseus’ actions, despite what he continually insists throughout the show, do not portray that of a normal man. Normal men do not ask for direct help from a being that does not care whether they live or die. Normal men do not face off against fucking Poseidon without backing down. Normal men do not charge in against a sea witch without any aid and expect to win. Normal men do not get to make the decisions of fate— of who lives and dies— and remain blameless.

Odysseus told him to listen, yes, but he also put himself on to a pedestal that his crew had no way of knowing was true. To them, he was a regular man doing things that would have gotten regular men killed— and it did, it just wasn’t Odysseus who died because of it.

[sciencegothic]

do you think athena ever resents Zeus for robbing her of the chance of having had a "normal birth" and a mother like everyone else has? does athena ever imagine what being a child would have felt like? what holding her mom's hands and hiding behind her dress would have felt like? i wonder if hera is nice to athena because she knows athena never had a mother. she was born before Zeus and her got married, after all, so Hera has no real reason to hold grudges like she held against Apollo, Artemis and Dionysus (all born out of affairs and not out of a previous union). Hera and Athena are often in the same side, they supported the acheans against troy and seem to generally respect each other.

Am I thinking all this just because of that "Hey, baby" in Hera's level in God Games? YEAH ABSOLUTELY.

ohh you came to the right person because mother-daughter dynamics drive me wild actually

i think there’s something to be said about a girl raised by her father because her father had his will that she would not have a mother. a girl who was born adorned in armour because her mother crafted it for her. athena was born a warrior of the mind (quite literally), and though zeus may shaped her and taught her as she grew, a lot of who she is can be attested to her birth. to her mother. so i think, yes, although athena is loyal to zeus, although she is his favourite, pe4ect daughter - there is still going to be a part of her that grieve for the mother she didn’t get to have, an resents the father who bears the reason.

i do like the idea that hera has a maternal dynamic with athena, then, because i think it would be good for both of them. athena finally gaining a mother-like presence in her life, and hera making a conscious choice of treating her as a daughter, knowing that the decision is hers, the girl is hers, and this isn’t like the other children of zeus. i think the “hey baby” line is quite telling, i definitely interpreted it as a sort of maternal-inflection, mother greeting daughter (in a sense). also just the whole way that hera interacts with athena in god games is really interesting. specifically her lines:

Try harder

and:

You can do better than that

it’s almost like she wants athena to win. where all the other gods presents their own arguments against odysseus, hera is giving way for athena to presents hers for him. she’s actively encouraging her to persuade her; she knows what athena - goddess of wisdom - is capable of, and she’s waiting to be hit with the wit that she knows athena posses. she knows athena “can do better than that”, she wants her to. she’s by far the most relaxed and causal of the gods throughout the games, i think to her this is just for fun and she sort of just wants to play around with athena for a bit. i like the interpretation that they’re locked in a dance during their conversation, like hers is using this as an excuse to just have some fun. maybe just for her own sake, but also maybe to spend sone time with athena.

headcanon wise, i do like the idea that hera is the one to take athena away after zeus’ wrath, or at least is the first to go to her. like i said, she seems to see the games as a very casual thing and doesn’t show any real contempt towards athena like the other gods do. she probably didn’t expect things to ever actually get dangerous. and of course, she also has her own qualms with zeus, so seeing him do something so heinous to his own daughter - i feel like that would kick in some kind of material instinct within her. she’d want to keep athena safe.

i should preface this all with the fact that this is all based solely in the context of epic. i’m sure the gods and their dynamics are different within wider mythology, but looking solely at the musical, these are some of my takes

[khaire-traveler]

Okay so I’ve been following Hellenic polytheism (or Hellenismos idk the technically correct term) for a couple years now, and I try my best to keep up with the definitions of miasma and ritual purity… but is it okay if I accidentally sneeze during ritual or prayer? I know it sounds like a dumb question but it’s been racking my brain for a long time. (Thank you so much I appreciate it! Also I love your content and how well versed you are it really helps whenever I’m lost or confused)

Khaire! I'm glad you like my blog and that it's helpful. c:

It's more than ok to sneeze accidentally during a ritual! It can be really embarrassing when our human bodies do body things, but it's outside of our control, and while the gods aren't human, I'm sure they understand well enough by now that human bodies are super weird. There's no need to feel embarrassed about our bodily functions; it's both natural and ok.

There's also evidence that, in ancient Greece, sneezes were taken as favorable signs from the gods! If you were to sneeze during a ritual in ancient Greece, you'd likely consider it a wonderful omen from the gods themselves. An example of this can be seen in Homer's The Odyssey when Penelope, in Book XVII, delivers a speech about how Odysseus would get rid of the suitors in her home and her son, Telemachus, sneezes at the end of her monologue. She then says something along the lines of, "Didn't you notice that my son sneezed a blessing on all I had said?" So sneezing during a ritual is more than ok, even outside of it being beyond your control. In fact, I'd personally take it as a good sign!

I hope this helped you, and take care! May many sneezes grace you throughout your lifetime. /light-hearted 🧡