#historical homosexuality

[crowscroll]

this is me for REAL

oh to be a chaotic man in the mid victorian era, being a painter and going to parties and chatting with nobility, living on an estate with the most beautiful gardens you’ve ever seen, having a secret homosexual relationship with my poet friend whos letters to me will be discovered in the future and “atributed to how we were such good friends”

i would probably be on oscar wilde levels of chaotic gay.

[eliounora]

my pet peeve is those "historians thought they were very good friends" jokes, like obviously for sure there are homophobic historians, but the study of same-sex desire and relationships of the past is also quite complex and you can't often go and simply label people's relationships or identities of time gone by, and sometimes it's more complicated and elusive than "they were a couple" or even "they were in love"

[yourdailyqueer]

Dale Olson (deceased)

Gender: Male

Sexuality: Gay

DOB: 20 February 1934

RIP: 9 August 2012

Ethnicity: White - American

Occupation: Writer, publicist, activist, journalist

Note 1: In 1954, he became the first man to appear on television in the United States and self-identify as homosexual.

Note 2: He became the spokesperson for Rock Hudson in 1985 during the actor's battle with AIDS. Olson persuaded Hudson to publicly acknowledge that he had the disease, becoming one of the first celebrities to do so.

[filmbroandy]

[dykedivorce]

My Country: The New Age + Ocean Vuong

[transmascpetewentz]

Honestly I haven't really considered what it is about men that gays like until recently, and while it's not a "real" theory whatsoever, I like what LS said about skin texture in men. That would explain a lot actually, and while I'm not sure how it is compatible with transsexuals who aren't on hormones, or how some straight men (chasers) are attracted to transsexual men on testosterone, I think it's a good theory that makes a lot of sense.

[aceredshirt13]

gang i have to share this P. G. Wodehouse quote with you all because ever since I found it I can't stop thinking about it. it's from a letter he wrote when he was 78 years old to his friend Guy Bolton (many thanks to P. G. Wodehouse: A Life in Letters)

I have been on the sick list myself, but am better now. Inflamed bladder or chill on the bladder or something, the symptoms being agony when I passed water, as the expression is. It brought back the brave old days when I used to get clap.

he really said "yeah the pain from my bladder issue reminds of the days when I used to have so much sex I repeatedly got venereal disease"

[akechi-if-he-slayed]

do you guys think hamilton and jefferson explored each other’s bodies

[lyledebeast]

I'm reading an academic article on The Film (for work!), and it cites a British film critic asking "How many crypto-homosexual English war criminals has Mel Gibson now killed on screen?" On the one hand, THANK YOU! I love validation. However, on the other . . . there are more? What? How many crypto-homosexual English war criminals has he killed on screen?

[prolibytherium]

Absolutely death gripped clenched trying not to comment on reductive posts on ancient greek homosexual relationships

[novelcain]

I meant like, the whole homophobia/transphobia thing, unless China was very accepting of enbys. Idk I don't really do history.

OOOOOOHHHH!!! Sorry I have a big dumb Skittle brain and am incapable of reading between the lines when it comes to nonverbal communication. 😅 Ok ok I did some research on this just now so I could give an accurate (as much as I can but I'm no expert for sure) answer.

And that answer is... it depends.

China has a very long history regarding sexually and its views of sex have shifted a LOT from one era to another. But for this post, we'll focus on the Tang Dynasty because that is the time period JTTW is set in (tho which time period of the Tang Dynasty is unclear)

So I'll start by saying that the Tang Dynasty was notoriously open about sex and sexual desires and homosexually was accepted in ancient but only in certain situations. Usually homosexuality or simply non-straight behavior was only accepted and allowed within the upper class. For example most if not all (I'm not too sure) Chinese emperors had several male lovers and they didn't hide it as it was often revered with great admiration.

NOW as far as gender orientation goes. This would HIGHLY depend on the person and their beliefs as during this period China was dominated by 2 religions Taoism and Buddhism.

Taoism was the official religion of the Tang Dynasty and states that nature is perfect as is and by proxy some believe that would mean they view transgenderism as a flaw of nature while most Taoists themselves do not view transgenderism negatively as the Tao is pretty unconcerned with identity and focuses on virtue and coming to accept things as they were born in nature. Therefore I think the only thing that would even remotely be said against transgenderism from a Taoist standpoint is that you shouldn't feel the need to change your body to reflect your mind. Conclusion: ancient Taoism would likely accept transgenderism so long as you don't pursue gender affirming surgery.

Now while the official religion of China at the time was Taoism, many emperors highly favored Buddhism and that can even be believed of the emperor described in JTTW.

That being said. Buddhism believes that the body is a cage that traps the spirit in suffering and should therefore be distanced from as much as possible. HOWEVER! The Buddha himself said that while you should try to separate yourself from the Earthly Realm one's body should be used as a tool of awakening, and given that awakening in to find Nirvana, one could argue that pursuing your gender identity is simply using your body to reflect your soul and therefore is good. But honestly Buddhists are pretty chill and as long as you ain't hurting anyone or anything I HIGHLY doubt a true Buddhist would care what you do so long as you live amicably. Conclusion: transgenderism would likely be cool with about 99% of Buddhists even in ancient China.

Overall conclusion: MOST people probably wouldn't care, though these are ancient times, so I'd really read the room before offering any info about being gender nonconforming or nonbinary. Having said that, the worst thing you'd have to do is pretend to be whatever gender you most closely resemble. But honestly I think a lot about how it'd be best to pretend to be a man when traveling as they are much less likely to be attacked, assaulted, or hate crimed.

So again, in situations like these you need to be flexible and willing to present as something you aren't. And while that can be hard, I feel like dying via whatever brutal death an extreme transphobe can think of is a lot harder. So if you play your cards right the most a nonbinary reader would get is probably some nasty comments and a few even nastier looks. Tho both could easily be corrected by Tripitaka explaining they shouldn't do that and that isn't what Buddhism believes if the person is a Buddhist and if that doesn't work or they aren't Buddhist then a few sharp glares from the Great Sage Equal to Heaven should be more than enough to get them to knock it the fuck off. Tho if you're good at talking people over to your side then they probably wouldn't even need to step in.

As for how the group would take it, I think they'd all accept it rather quickly after you explain what being enby is with maybe the exception of Bajie who just truly doesn't understand so you'd just have to explain the concept of other genders to him a few times.

I hope this answers your question at least somewhat 😊

[yourdailyqueer]

Nasta Rojc (deceased)

Gender: Female

Sexuality: Lesbian

DOB: 6 November 1883 

RIP: 6 November 1964

Ethnicity: White - Croatian

Occupation: Artist

Note: Was one of the most prominent Croatian painters in the early twentieth century.

[fizzycherrycola]

I hope I’m just late to the game on this. But does anyone else think that Tsar Alexander I and Napoleon Bonaparte would have made a fantastic (albeit tragic) gay ship or have I just completely lost my mind.

I mean look at this.

The very first thing Alexander said to Napoleon was probably well-calibrated: “I hate the English as much as you do”. Their meeting lasted two hours. Despite waging wars against each other the two Emperors were very much impressed and fascinated by one another. “Never,” said Alexander afterward, “did I love any man as I loved that man.”

And this.

Napoleon was charmed by Alexander, describing him as “especially handsome, like a hero with all the graces of an amiable Parisian.”

And wow.

“If Alexander were a woman,” Napoleon wrote to Josephine, “I would make him my mistress.”

There’s even fanart of them from the 1800′s.

This complicated historic bromance has Enemies-to-Lovers-to-Enemies written all over it.

[compacflt]

Okay, so I was re-reading your Slider one-shot for like the twentieth time, and what really struck me (beyond the brilliance of your writing, and the way you’ve presented the disillusionment of growing up, expecting the world to be a certain way, only to realize that life doesn’t quite work out the way you think it will, when you’re seventeen), is the casual sexism just tossed ‘round by our main characters!! :o We have canonical evidence of both Ice and Mav being pretty sexist (what with “the plaque for the alternates is in the ladies’ room” and the downright stalker-ish behavior exhibited by Mav at the O-club…), but it still surprised me a lil’ when twenty-y/o Ice was just like: “The Soviet Union did the impossible and taught women to drive” —and I realized that ah, he truly was born in 1959, or something. There’s little scenes throughout your story where I find myself wondering, which one of them is better, in this sense: When Ice tells Mav that Sarah isn’t talking to him ‘cause of his combat kills, justifies it by saying: “You know how women are”, and Mav tells him all women aren’t the same… I thought that maybe, it was Mav; but then later, Ice shows a distinctive amount of empathy for Juno, sees and respects her for the skilled pilot that she is… and I thought that maybe, it’s Ice after all—he does seem to be more progressive and accepting than Mav, in general? It also made me wonder, that if either of them had been a woman, would they even have respected the other person enough to consider them to be a rival??—or would it have a been a mildly-amusing circus side show for them, to have a female pilot at TOPGUN?

Ty for the ask anon!! ice is more socially progressive than mav yes.

But—maybe this is my experience growing up in one of the bluest counties in Commiefornia and then going to one of the most leftist-coded colleges in one of the most leftist-coded cities in The World; uhh, even if a white man votes D all the time & has professional respect for women/minorities to their faces etc, get him in a room with a bunch of other white men, especially in a masculine and competitive environment like the gym or the navy, and uh. progressive or not, what you get is a lot of “The Soviet Union did the impossible & taught women to drive.”

And it was the 1980s. (As a reminder, in top gun’s 1986, less than 45% of Americans even approved of interracial marriage.) It sucks to say it, but if Ice was making fun of Cougar for quitting the navy cause of his psych issues such as they may be, and openly calling bullshit on Maverick’s MiG story in front of everyone, I am quite confident in saying he Would Not respect a female pilot to her face—if they were the same rank. At the same rank, it’s a competition. All weaknesses, even perceived biological ones, are to be exploited and called to attention. —But, once he’s advanced in rank, proven his own superiority, he’s more inclined to favor a meritocratic “sex doesn’t matter just fly good” attitude, ergo his relationship w/ “Juno” (she’s just a literary symbol to show that Ice may have respect for other minorities in the Navy “your career speaks for itself” but NOT FOR HIMSELF as a closeted man). This “who cares about gender/race just fly good” attitude is probably where 50s+ Maverick lands too, which is why no issues with Phoenix.

but jesus GOD maverick is a sexist in the original Top Gun. That’s why I wrote the prologue to WWGATTAI—a part of me definitely believes both he and Ice are definitively queer, but a part of me also wonders, are they just also conditioned to dismiss women as intellectual/societal equals because of their time in the 1980s male-dominated Navy? CAN they really only have a truly equal relationship with another man? I have no idea what my Ice’s sexual orientation is for exactly this reason. Yes, he’s functionally gay by the end of it, and that’s what I keep calling him—but sexuality is fluid & complicated. It’s definitely more-than possible he’s mostly straight and it’s just the circumstances of his wildly intense trauma-bond relationship with Maverick that led to their relationship as I wrote it. If you don’t LIKE/understand/respect women, and only feel at home/excited by committing acts of male-typified violence with the few men you respect, how does that bend your definition of the word straight? ...its still straight, but only straight-ish!

not to take it a step further, but WHY ELSE is canon maverick single in TGM? he canonically can’t make it work with women until he retires from the navy!!! he doesnt know how!!! His military environment is not conducive to normal long-term relationships with civilian women!!!

[ratuszarsenal]

this evening we are pondering how and if there is any gay shit to be found between the inter-to-intratextual layers of beowulf

[sassthatsarcasm]

OKAY Y'ALL DID THIS TO YOURSELVES

1629 AU: Leon is a farmhand working the Marner Estate and Mitch is the pampered socialite son.

THIS IS NOT GOOD!!! but enjoy :3

people to blame for this atrocity:

the director of that soft core gay porn sports betting ad

mm16 for his immaculate twink vibes

the various people in my notes who enabled this u know who u are

It’s just that he’s so sweet. Soft curls, full mouth, the delicate jut of his collarbone above the gentle untidiness of his shirt half-undone. Leon usually didn’t have time for these air-headed, privileged things, come to the country in the sweltering heat for their fantasy versions of slumming in. But – he’s sweet.

Leon – like his father and his father before him, ad nauseum – had been maintaining the grounds of the Marner Estate for what feels like all his life. So, he’s seen the Marner son grow into his limbs and his giant eyes and that stupid mouth, not that Leon was ever looking at his mouth.

Marner was the same as all of them. Mitchy, they called him �� one of the carousel of soft, young things so tightly swaddled in their privilege Leon couldn’t believe they didn’t choke on it. Maybe they did and didn’t know that pain wasn’t pleasure. Mitch Marner laughed loud, took up space in the world without ever questioning if he deserved it. The world was his and he had Daddy’s fucking mansion to prove it.

For all of Leon’s thinly-veiled irritation, the Marners only ever converged on the Estate in the summer, when the baking sun drove them out of the city to breathe fresh country air. Still, he could usually minimise interaction with the Marner clan and spare himself a headache. There was just this way that moneyed folk laughed which sunk into his skin and made it sit uneasy over his bones. Maybe he was a snob - wouldn’t be the first time he’d been accused of it. They were snobs, too – wouldn’t ever dare to look the help in the eye.

So, for most summers of his life, Leon has been able to mostly avoid crossing paths with any of the Marners, especially the treasured son. He stuck to the edges of the grounds, rotating across the hedges in parallel to Mother Marner’s daily walks or the children kicking a ball around. Just the way he liked it.

But. Recently, he’s felt eyes following him as he makes the rounds and, when he looks up, Leon finds himself meeting those wide blue eyes, sitting pretty over flushed cheeks and that mouth that seemed to always be hanging open. Marner’s eyes would usually dart away first and he’d walk away quickly but Leon, day in and day out, would feel him on the periphery, following him around. At first, Leon is angry – his family has served the Marners faithfully for generations and he wouldn’t let a pampered, spoiled child doubt his loyalty to that legacy, if not to the family itself.

Then, the Marner kid gets bolder, eventually getting into his business everyday and asking inane questions about lawn maintenance and the different scientific names for the flowers scattered across the grounds. Leon watches Marner’s tongue trip over the word ‘scientific’ with a sceptical eye and wonders what the fuck the kid is up to.

Kid. Hm. Logically, Leon knew Marner could only be a couple of years younger than him but something about those eyes made him seem so much younger than he was, like he’d never had a care in the world. And really, Leon should have known that was the beginning of it all, or perhaps the end of it. He can never resist a wide-eyed creature too shy and sweet for its own good.

-

So, Leon didn’t think it would end up this way. These pretty, young things, they always look, taught to view things not theirs as things to want. Leon’s not an idiot – it’s been weeks of this, and he knows how to read the heavy-lidded looks Marner keeps sending him across the fucking topiary, what it means when Marner’s mouth goes, somehow, even looser when Leon lifts his shirt to wipe off his brow. Also, no one is that fucking interested in lawn curation, not even Leon. But he didn’t think it would actually lead to this, Leon pressing the Marner heir into the wall, calloused hands on slim wrists. Not knowing if it was the heat of the air or the heat of their bodies pressed tight that made sweat break of sickly-sweet over his skin.

Those shining eyes, staring up at him, the blue joy of them shadowed with something that intrigued Leon, God help him. The surprising strength of his whip-thin body. The unexpected thickness that Leon’s hands find when they skim across his thighs and arms and shoulders. And for all his sweetness, the way Marner gasps and claws his hands into Leon’s back, greedy in the way all rich boys were born to be. He’s pressing Leon so tight against him – Leon’s rough work shirt and his beard turning Marner’s exposed skin red, looking so tender that Leon’s mouth waters.

It’s the sting of his nails in Leon’s shoulder, the clamp of his teeth in Leon’s neck, that prompts him to get a little mean about it. Another thing about Leon: he can only handle so much sweetness before he reaches into the core of it and twists, see if can tease the worst out of someone in a race for pleasure.

Leon pushes his body even tighter into Marner, pinning his wrists against hips. Marner’s head shoots up, eyes wide, and his mouth slackens around a soft little sound of want.

“What do you need?” murmurs Leon, feeling the rumble of his voice against Marner’s chest.

Marner whines. “Anything, please, anything.” So eager for it. Leon kisses his neck and Marner’s head shoots back so abruptly it hits the wall, his desperate breaths fanning across Leon’s forehead.

Leon smirks. “Do you even know what you need? Has anyone ever shown you?” Marner’s cheeks flush, not out of arousal but embarrassment, and his eyes cast down. “I bet you don’t. I bet you’ve been good, kept your hands to yourself. But –” Here Leon takes Marner’s chin into his hand and firmly guides his face up until he’s looking at him again. “Those eyes. You’re a hungry little thing, aren’t you. You can’t hide from me.”

Then, surprising Leon, Marner’s eyes harden into a steely look of determination. “So, show me what I need.” Marner leans up, capturing Leon’s mouth in a breath-taking kiss that he feels down to knees. “Make it good for me.”