#he didn't have to die to earn redemption

[martianbugsbunny]

I don't love Alexsandr Kallus because he's some precious, perfect paragon of a man; that's not what he is. I love Alexsandr Kallus because he was absolutely horrible and he changed. He made amends. He uprooted literally his entire life out of remorse for what he'd done in the past and determination to do better in the future. He sacrificed everything he'd ever built because it was built on the pain and death of others and he didn't want that to be the sum of his life anymore. He went into a future where all he knew he could expect was to be hunted because he was once the hunter and he wanted to make up for it. He opened his damn eyes and he looked at what he'd done and he said this isn't right, I'm going to be different from now on if it kills me. I love Alexsandr Kallus because he changed.

[ineffectualdemon]

I've been thinking about it

And I don't think what's needed to actually fix Shen Jiu and Yue Qingyuan's relationship is Yue Qingyuan confessing why he didn't make it in time unless it was immediately when they met at the conference

Because that's not what sets Shen Jiu on his path.

What set Shen Jiu down the road he traveled and ruined all his interpersonal relationships was that he briefly wished Yue Qingyuan had died rather then forgot him

And he was so horrified by having that thought that he decided he was born rotten and was a monster from birth. Because only a monster would think like that.

Some people were rotten from birth. Shen Jiu thought of himself in exactly this way - someone vile and poisonous from the start. Because, at that instant, he came to a crystal -clear realization:

That he's rather have met a Yue Qi who'd died in some unknown corner, his remains unsightly and forgotten, then a Yue Qingyuan who was elegant and powerful, his prospects and future boundless."

SVSSS English translation Vol 4 Pg 95

Later when Yue Qingyuan talks to Shen Jiu in the water prison they have this moment:

"Has Shidi ever considered that, if you hadn't treated Luo Binghe like that in the beginning, everything that unfolded today would never have happened?"

Shen Qingqiu burst into laughter. "Why does Zhangmen-shixiong say such ludicrous things? What's happened has happened! I've already 'considered' it hundreds and thousands of times! There is no 'if', no 'in the beginning' —there was never any chance of redemption!"

SVSSS English translation Vol 4 Pg 111

He doesn't see this going in any other way because how could it if he was "rotten from birth" he was always a monster in his mind so to him suggesting there were other options is silly.

When he sees how this breaks Yue Qingyuan's heart he accepts that Yue Qingyuan had done all he could and any debt had long been repaid. But it's what he says next that really says a lot about himself

"You should go," said Shen Qingqiu. "I'll tell you this: Even if all of this could be redone from the beginning, in the end, the conclusion would remain the same. My heart is full of malice, my insides hatred and resentment. Today Luo Binghe wishes for me to die horribly, and I have only myself to blame."

SVSSS English translation Vol 4 Pg 112

He's saying it this way to push Yue Qingyuan to give up on him. Shen Jiu knows he's been cruel and abusive and feels he earned his fate. Which of course he would. He killed his own abusers with his own two hands. He understands Luo Binghe's motivations and reasons and doesn't see how it could have gone any different.

Because he sees himself as an inherent monster from birth and he was projecting that same monstrosity onto Luo Binghe from the beginning.

Yue Qingyuan confessing wouldn't have fixed their relationship unless it had been in the first instant when they met again. If he had said "I was too late" instead of "Qi-ge let you down" that might have changed things. But once Shen Jiu thinks he would have preferred Yue Qi to have died then become Yue Qingyuan and soar above him Shen Jiu was doomed.

The only way to fix their relationship from that point is for Shen Jiu to confess and confront the fact that the person he is angry with and hates is himself and that he's trying to push Yue Qingyuan away for that reason.

Unfortunately in PIDW canon he was only able to do this in the water prison and he still tried to push away Yue Qingyuan (who offered to let Shen Jiu kill him??? I had forgotten that bit) to save him from Luo Binghe.

I was thinking about this because I remembered a post that someone wrote about Shen Qingqiu getting truth serumed but it exposing his real feelings not like hidden identities. Like he insults Airplane and then says "I actually enjoy your company and your writing when you focus on your world building and plot but I had how you squander your potential."

And that was obviously talking about Shen Yuan

But I think that sort of thing would actually fix a lot of Shen Jiu's interpersonal relationships but he'd be mad as hell about it. Again it would have to happen before Luo Binghe hit the sect but if he could voice and confront those self beliefs then there is the slightest chance he could be persuaded that he's wrong by the right person

But yes. The thing about Shen Jiu is by the time Luo Binghe meets him he is well and truly a monster. But he's a monster because he decided he was one inherently and that he was incapable of changing that fact about himself.

Shen Jiu was right. Going back wouldn't have changed anything because Shen Jiu doesn't believe himself capable of change.

Something would have to break through that self hatred and make him believe he can be better. That he doesn't have to live like that.

And Yue Qingyuan confessing wouldn't do that. It would just make the self hatred worse.

[duskdog]

I've never been a huge fan of the retcon of Stephanie Brown's death.

Don't get me wrong -- she never should have been killed the way she was, and I'm overjoyed that she's alive. But... the retcon itself is just so, so boring and stupid and uninspired. "Whoops, she faked her death! LOL!"

On the bright side: It not only brought Steph back, but it gave her the chance to earn respect and redemption in a way that would have been impossible had she stayed dead (obviously). It gave her the chance to become something more than "that dumb kid who started a gang war".

Also on the bright side: It salvaged Leslie Thompkins, whose character had been absolutely butchered -- even worse than Steph -- by War Games. Her motivation for letting a child fucking die on her table was absolute bullshit that made no sense for Leslie whatsoever, and spoke of a profound lack of understanding of her as a character and her relationship with Bruce in particular. The retcon washes her hands of Steph's blood at least, even if "faking a teenager's death" isn't the greatest thing for a resume.

On the not-so-bright side: It further demonized Steph by instead making her "that dumb kid who not only started a gang war, but also selfishly put her friends and mother through absolute hell by making them think she was dead".

Also on the not-so-bright side: It erased her very real trauma in the eyes of both fandom and the characters themselves. Oh, she didn't die and stay dead? Guess that means she didn't actually suffer. Guess that means being tortured to the point of death didn't mean anything. Guess that means power drills and broken glass and being hung in a stress position for hours/days doesn't hurt or leave scars or anything. Guess that means being suddenly stolen away from her entire life, with no one that she loves or even knows (we have no reason to believe she was close to Leslie when War Games happened, contrary to popular belief), wasn't incredibly difficult. Guess that means that recovering from massive physical and psychological trauma in a foreign country you've never been to and don't speak the language of, fully dependent on somebody she barely knows, and without the love and emotional support of her mother was probably find, right? Guess that means she didn't learn anything from her mistakes, huh? Because you have to actually die and be dead and stay dead for a while in order to be sympathetic, I guess.

Also on the not-so-bright side: It absolved Bruce (and the writers) of the callousness of his treatment of Steph, and of not memorializing her in the Batcave or giving any other indication that he ever considered her a real Robin to anyone other than Steph herself, whom he believed was dying and wouldn't be around to tell it anyways. (You may consider this a "bright side" thing. I don't, because a large part of my issue with Batman as a character is that he's always Right even when he's Wrong, and the narrative often ends up supporting his blatant assholery. I dislike his bad behavior being vindicated by virtue of secret knowledge or deus ex machina.)

More importantly, however, I've always questioned exactly how much agency Steph had in the whole "faking her death" thing.

Originally, Bruce found that Steph had been "stable" and shouldn't have died, unless Leslie allowed her to. Being "stable" at one point in time absolutely doesn't mean you're not in any danger whatsoever. It's good, but it's no guarantee -- especially if she was in bad enough shape that simple lack of intervention on Leslie's behalf would have been enough to kill her (and within a relatively short amount of time, too).

So we know she was badly injured. Enough so that Batman thought she was dying, and wasn't surprised by that fact initially. (He's not exactly someone who doesn't have experience with estimating someone's condition in the field, too, remember.) Steph herself even seemed to believe that she was dying.

Additionally, Steph can't exactly demand that Leslie -- whom she barely knows, remember -- fold up her practice and run away to Africa to get her away from Gotham. Or plan everything that would be necessary to fake her death, right down to a substitute corpse and autopsy. Those were things that took some real intent and planning on Leslie's part, as well as some Big Ass Decisions for the good doctor.

So it seems almost certain that the idea itself was Leslie's. She made these decisions very quickly, but she had to have been the one to make them. Was Steph privy to this? Well, was she even conscious? And if she was conscious, was she heavily drugged, for pain if nothing else? Seems she would have been. Even if not drugged, was she mentally and emotionally capable of making such a decision, considering she had just suffered actual literal torture?

It seems very unlikely to me that Steph had any, or much, input into this decision whatsoever.

And once they were in Africa, how long and difficult was her recovery? Was she given access to ways to contact anyone? Or change her mind? I'm not suggesting that Leslie was holding her hostage; I'm questioning whether Steph was even physically capable of advocating for herself for a while, let alone mentally. Her only connection to her former life is the doctor who whisked her away here -- and that connection is also the person who's in charge of her care. If you're exhausted, in lots of pain, probably heavily medicated, in emotional distress, and have limited mobility, you're probably a lot more likely to take your doc's suggestion that you "just relax and don't worry about that right now".

Additionally, what kind of mental/emotional state was Steph even in? She knew she fucked up. She knew people had suffered and died because of what she did. You can call Steph a lot of things, but "uncaring" and "unempathetic" are not among them. It's easy to say she was selfishly hiding from the consequences of her actions, and maybe that's true to an extent, but consider what we know about Steph's self-esteem up to this point. I don't think it's a stretch to say that she probably thought that Gotham was better off without her. She probably thought that nobody wanted to see her. She may have even though they were glad she was "dead". (Even her mother, whom she loves dearly. I believe her relationship with her mom is actually quite complicated, thanks to Crystal's neglect during her substance abuse days, their differing feelings on Arthur surrounding his death, and Steph's occasional parentification. Steph believed she had to protect her mother, but probably didn't feel like she was very good at it, so is it really surprising that an emotionally-compromised, injured Stephanie Brown might think that her mother might actually be better off with her "dead"?)

And what about when she reached the point where she was both physically and mentally capable of facing what she had done, and the fact that she was letting her loved ones believe she was dead, and that it might be hurtful of her to do that?

Well, at that point, the damage was already done, wasn't it? Telling them after 3 months, 6 months, 9 months, or however long the bulk of her recovery took wouldn't matter that much, would it? The lie had already been told. They had already buried her. They had already grieved. Maybe, by that point, it even felt like it would be more cruel to suddenly tell the truth. And by that point, she had begun to heal, begun to gain perspective, begun to re-evaluate somethings about herself. She probably really did need the time away to get her shit together. She probably did, for a little while, think it might be best if she never set foot in Gotham again.

I'm not saying that makes it all okay. Her mother, in particular, deserved better than all that. Cass was devastated and clearly struggled with Steph's death, perhaps even moreso than Tim. It was a shitty thing to put people through.

But I'm suggesting that 1. it's not fair to place so much of the blame on Stephanie herself, because it's not logical to suggest that she's the one who planned any of this, and 2. it's at least somewhat understandable.

[bellabrady]

Why many people dislike Tommy Kinard

Listen, I don't like to try and dictate what characters others can like. However, I do find it concerning how quick so many people are to forgive a bigot who didn't even get a proper redemption. So, especially for those who simply don't really remember Tommy, here's a quick recap of him:

Let's start with Chimney Begins. Tommy is one of the firefighters at the 118 when Chimney becomes part of the team. The first thing Tommy says when Chim arrives is 'Hey Eli, did you forget to tip the delivery guy?' On its own, this isn't really bad, because it could very much just be a harmless joke. But in combination with Tommy's behavior throughout the rest of the episode, one could argue the comment has racist undertones. But this one's up to interpretation so let's move on.

Although not explicitly stated, it's very obvious the 118 captain is racist which is reflected in the way he treats him: he only lets him do annoying chores, is a jerk towards him, actively isolates him, and so on.

The rest of the team, including Tommy, does nothing to try and change this. In fact, they actively take part in isolating him too, for example by letting him sit by himself at a tiny table instead of the group table while they eat. Even when Chimney attempts to talk to them, everyone but Eli (the paramedic who ends up training Chim) blatantly ignores him.

One time, Chim and Tommy are alone in the locker room and Chim says: "Hey man, let's build a bridge here." Tommy doesn't even react. Chim keeps making suggestions of things they could talk about, like movies or sports, to which Tommy still doesn't react except by rolling his eyes. Chim then asks: "You just really don't like me much, do you?" and Tommy responds: "If I thought about you at all, honestly, I probably wouldn't."

Mind you, he doesn't even know Chimney and yet he's pretty sure he wouldn't like him. What exactly is he basing that on? Race, perhaps? (Tommy is very close to some other guys on the team by the way.)

Eli tells Chim that the treatment isn't personal and that the reason everyone is so distant is because in this job, friends die and that the team isn't just gonna give Chim their friendship until they earn his respect. "You don't name a puppy until you know it's gonna pull through."

In my opinion this is absolute bullshit though. You cannot tell me every single probie at the 118 has been treated this way for weeks (maybe months? I don't remember exactly). Also, keeping someone at a distance doesn't mean you have to treat them like literal dirt. It's also worth mentioning that once the captain, Tommy and his best friend leave the 118, no probie seems to ever be treated this way again. So if it's about the nature of the job, why wasn't it like this for everyone? So, despite what Eli said, I think Chim's treatment was definitely caused by racism.

Eventually, Chimney is finally allowed out on calls and risks his life to save Tommy's, which basically makes Tommy go: "Oh hey! Maybe I could treat this guy like a human being?" He thanks him for saving his life and from this point on they're friends. I don't know about you guys, but personally I think someone who doesn't see it fit to treat you like a person until you save their life doesn't seem like a very great guy.

Let's move on to Hen Begins. The 118 is still under the same captain, who is also a misogynist. Unlike the racism, this isn't only implied but confirmed.

I've seen people argue that Tommy can't be blamed for not standing up to his captain because that's his boss. And yet, when the captain says "This is our new diversity hire" about Hen, Chimney says, "You know, Cap, there's another way to say that," which immediately proves that Tommy could stand up to him as well, and simply doesn't have the guts.

They treat Hen similarly to the way they treated Chim. Tommy, along with everyone else but Chim, for example throws some gear on the ground before Hen's feet so she takes care of it, not saying so much as a single word to her in the process.

Chim tries to make conversation with Hen and says "I would've bet money that you were from the east coast, you just kinda have that vibe." Hen laughs and says "Thank you for the compliment?" to which Tommy replies: "New York bitchiness is a compliment?"

He doesn't even know Hen and she's done nothing that could be seen as 'bitchy.' Just some good ol' fashioned misogyny. Chim also recognizes that comment for what it is immediately because he goes "woah, woah, nobody said anything like that, come on." Tommy only huffs in annoyance as a response.

The captain then goes on a rant about how training female firefighters is a waste of money and Chim once again stands up for Hen, unlike everybody else, including Tommy, who just lets the misogyny stand.

It isn't until Hen rescues someone on a call that Tommy and his friend admit they wouldn't have found in time, that they finally treat her like a person. You'd think they'd have learned from Chimney that maybe people shouldn't need to prove themselves to you in order for you to treat them like a human being, but apparently not.

Ultimately, the team submits complaints against the captain and supports Hen but if you ask me, this should've happened a lot sooner and not only after they deemed her worthy.

And that's pretty much all we see of Tommy, except for some short scenes in Bobby Begins Again in which he just interacts with his team until he leaves for a different station at the end of the episode. There's no redemption, no proper apology and, if you ask me, considering the fact that he treated Hen the same as Chim, there's also no development.

And yet there are people who will defend this man with their lives as if 90% of his screentime wasn't him being a bigot or at best a coward without the guts to stand up to his bigoted captain.

So yes, personally I think liking Tommy Kinard is weird.

[burningcheese-merchant]

I think redemption Spice needs to beat yandare Spice to death, as a treat. Might actualy be cathartic for him.

That would be the fucking best, honestly 😭 Reformed Burning Spice, after all of that time and hard work atoning for whatever sins he could, trying to find a new way forward as a different man, finally earning back his place in society; facing off against his shadow, his doppelganger, this demon wearing his face like a mask and his skin like a coat, this monster that has hurt and killed so many that is now sneering at him and calling him soft and weak for allowing himself to feel and be a real person again

You don't even have to make this ship-related necessarily, just have the Burning Spice who climbed his way out of the abyss VS the Burning Spice who jumped in head first and let the former, with all of his newfound experiences and perspective on life and the solace he learned to find within himself and others, achieve victory. Let this be his greatest and final act of redemption: slaying the man he used to be. Let good triumph over evil, as it can, as it should, and as it must. Let Damned Spice (gonna call him that while it's VS Reformed Spice) be brought to heel - not by Golden Cheese this time, but by someone so much worse: himself. Let his pride and bloodlust be his downfall, for neither can stand against humility and proper discipline. Let the face of ultimate defeat be the one he sees in his reflection - except while his own eyes burn with hatred and his own mouth is twisted into an ugly snarl, Reformed Spice's face is calm, cool, every breath and movement measured, his eyes alight only with righteous determination.

When Damned Spice is beat, Reformed Spice offers him one more chance to stop and turn back. People were willing to take him in and push him to start over, it was only fair that he pay that sentiment forward and let his other self have the option, as well. But he says no. Of course he does. Once a destroyer, always a destroyer. If there was ever a chance to help him, it's been gone a long time, and he didn't go looking for it for one reason only: he doesn't care anymore. He regrets ever caring in the first place. Life is meaningless, all that is fun and fair is destruction. What a shame that this fool that shares his name and likeness lost sight of that ultimate truth. He welcomes his defeat, he welcomes his death. It'll be the last worthwhile thing his inferior counterpart ever does.

Damned Spice is smiling when that axe comes bearing down on his head. He's smiling as he feels it sink into his neck, carving through his flesh, rending it from bone and then slicing through the bone, too. His body slumps forward, his head hits the ground with a thud. Still wearing that hideous devil's grin. He died as he lived, as he always wanted to live and as he always wanted to die: an unrepentant monster.

Reformed Spice is... not happy, but not sad. He feels... peaceful. Finally, he can claim freedom from his past. His demons have at last been bested. Perhaps he cannot undo what he did. Perhaps there are sins he can never truly be forgiven for. Perhaps there will always be blood staining the tapestry of his life, no matter what he does to wash it out. But how the rest of it is woven is up to him, and he has earned the wisdom and strength of character needed to make better choices. Now he can continue forward, into an uncertain but nevertheless brighter future, leaving the darkness behind without looking back. Had the tables been turned, the other Burning Spice would've done the same, anyway.

🔥 Absolute fucking cinema 🔥

(To properly address Reformed Spice VS Yandere Spice: what man wouldn't want to beat the shit out of the guy that's been constantly harassing his wife? That disrespected her boundaries and her personhood in such a vile, inexcusable way? Death is too good for Yandere Spice, but it's all Reformed Spice feels like offering him. The Devil can take care of the rest.)

[buffaloborgine]

Before reading, I want to emphasize, I don't hate Sephiroth as a character, I hate how some people dismiss all of his heinous acts and cling to "He is a victim" and shove the tragedy he caused onto other characters. About that one post about Sephiroth and someone replying to it, let me be clear: I don't deny Sephiroth was a victim. Like many, he was the victim of Shinra and Hojo, that's undeniable. But to write like he is a good person and all the bad things he did were influenced by his upbringing? NO. Sephiroth is selfish, and no matter what you try to bend the narrative to fit your imagination, it is a fact. When the theme of FFVII is about "imagination/illusion", if we use the structure of protagonist vs antagonist, Cloud is the one that was affected by the illusion but he accepted help from others and got over it. Sephiroth would simply be the reversed version of that, he wasn't even illusioned, he knew for sure what he is but deciding that it was better for him if everyone else, and even himself stayed in that illusion forever. Sephiroth wasn't the only character to be affected by Shinra's evilness, but then let's take a look at those who also were affected: - Zack once learned and accepted that Shinra is evil had started running away with Cloud. - Angeal and Genesis don't share the same reaction but eventually once accepted the truth, they both rebelled against Shinra (also Lazard). - The Turks and Rufus are easy to see, I don't need to explain. - The massacred 1st SOLDIER unit mentioned in Dirge of Cerberus, fighting against the creation of inhuman Deepground facility. - Deepground themselves, they know what they are and they fought against Shinra, knowing they would even die if they do. So many would say, but Sephiroth does disobey Shinra and that he wanted to leave Shinra. Vetoing orders onto co-workers' heads doesn't seem to be a good way to protest, rather that's just push the responsibility onto others. And about "wanting to leave Shinra", as far as I remember, Sephiroth just said he would consider the idea, not that he would ever leave, and even till the event of Nibelheim, he didn't leave Shinra, not at all. So let's put this together, should we just see Sephiroth as a victim and say he isn't accounted for other tragedy happened in FFVII? Personally? Of course not. There are other victims and they fought back their abuser in different ways, maybe causing mayhem on the route but they still fought for their freedom. Sephiroth has never once given a single thought for others, and he was comfortable staying in Shinra, after all, he got the privilege for 1st Class, can veto orders and get admired by other SOLDIERs. To debunk people who claim that Sephiroth was thoughtful about Genesis' injury: Who was the one causing that mess in the first place? And even when you look at the cutscene, it was less of caring thought but more of "Why I am inadequate for this?" If he was sincere, he would have gone to check on Genesis later, but nope, he assumed Genesis was fine, like really, what kind of friend is that? No fucking friend would just assume friend is fine knowing they are hurt, no fucking friend would just condemn friends as traitor while not knowing the reason why they leave, and no fucking friend would keep their friends in the dark while knowing they are being tricked, abused. In conclusion, please stop saying Sephiroth is a good friend to anyone. If he cannot earn Zack's forgiveness, he is a prick, but if even Weiss stood against him (in DFFOO), consider he surely won't get any redemption.

[sapphic-agent]

I would say that Bakugo failed as a deuteragonist and a failed attempt of having a redemption arc, is the mere fact that this charatcer has somehow got away with so many consequences that could actually made him learn that his vile, sadistic and inconsiderate personality will never earn him to become a hero he craved.

Heck, actually, UA could still get him to be enrolled but after; 1. ) Finding it suspicious that Bakugo doesn't bother to save any helpless citizen dummies, and seemed to be having more fun of destroying everything, 2. ) Decided to attack Izuku ( for a stupid reason ) that's got nothing to do with him under Aizawa's watch ( there could be a good reason why he didn't expel him sooner, is the mere fact he expelled the other students and Nezu forbid him to do it again ( as a warning ) ), 3. ) The final nail in the coffin is Bakugo not giving one single crap that Izuku could die from his Explosion Blast under Almight's watch.

With this three errors, Nezu wouldn't hesitate but to expel him, which could led to make Bakugo to learn that the world doesn't revolve around him. And oh boy, since in the series, Bakugo kept blaming Izuku for his own shortcomings, it wouldn't even be OOC for him to blame the green haired boy for his own actions.

He would be moved to another school of course, but afterwards, he'll kept blaming the victim by rationalizing in his head that it's Izuku's fault that ruined his plans to become 'The Best', and have to be sent another university that is 'second place' which could easily bruised his ego.

To me, this would at least make him unbearable cause in canon, he RARELY receives any consequences.

Honestly for me it could have been as simple as Class 1A being just as good as or better than Bakugou. That would have been a realistic way to humble him, finding out that he was just the biggest fish in a small pond before UA. And then because 1A has no reason to mince words with him, properly tells him off for his attitude and actions towards Izuku.

I would have been content with that

[spxdyr]

i can't sleep and i keep seeing people angry at gerrards "redemption" so i just wanna talk about redemptions again for funsies.

i genuinely don't think what gerrard did should be considered a redemption because it wasn't. gerrard didn't save the day, bobby and the rest of the 118 saved the day, gerrard was simply a pawn. he was the person who could realistically get close enough to ortiz to get her to let her guard down without raising any alarm bells.

gerrard only agreed because he would get something out of it. and i truly believe it isn't the what that makes a redemption but the why.

i'm gonna use prince zukos redemption arc from atla as my example/comparison genuinely i genuinely believe its one of the strongest redemption arcs in all of television history. i'm also going to use negans from the walking dead because its a very divisive redemption arc that i also believe is one the greatest in tv history because of what it isn't.

first, i want to emphasize that i wholly believe that redemption isn't up to the narrative its up to the audience. the narrative can try to convince you of anything but if the audience doesn't buy it, it doesn't mean shit.

but onto the actual point. gerrard did a good thing, he is not a good person. bad people do good things all the time because two things can be true at once.

the reason zuko has such a strong redemption arc isn't because he did a couple good things. its because we as the audience saw him go through genuine introspection and come to the realization that he wasn't a bad person doing bad things. he was a good person influenced by the people around him to do bad things.

but it also so good because we saw the episodes watching him not only ask for the Gaangs forgiveness but also the audiences. we as the audience were forced to sit down with zuko and decide whether or not we would be able to redeem his actions. and character by character we as the audience found ourselves forgiving him.

it also helped that zuko had a character in the show who was the mirror of his redemption. iroh was also a good person who did bad things but we are immediately forgiving of those bad things because we are constantly showed his goodness through zuko.

gerrard didn't have any of that. in fact the only characters that are still presented in the narrative that might mirror gerrard come in the form of tommy. who also didn't get actual redemption. he was granted forgiveness by passage of time. which as an audience member doesn't change how i view him.

zuko got redemption from both the narrative, the characters, and the audience because he earned it. gerrard didn't get redemption from either, he just did a good thing for personal gain.

on to negans redemption. i want to preface this by saying im a negan defender until the day i die so if you hate negan, disregard this i guess.

negan was offered a redemption by the narrative, the characters, and the audience, and technically he didn't take it.

the thing with the walking dead is that technically there's no heros or villains. there's just people trying to survive, the hero is whoever's story you're following the most and in this case it's rick and friends. there are however, people who are objectively worse than others (ie the guy who tried to sa a 12 year old carl).

negan wasn't a villain he was an antagonist. he was the very thing in the way of rick and friends' main goal, survival.

and he was a good at it. he was so good at it he killed two main characters in one episode, then about 2-3 more over the course of his run as the primary antagonist. then he lost. and spent years in jail for it.

and at no point during that jail time was he offered, nor did he ask for, redemption. because at the end of the day he did what he thought he had to, to survive. and to his people he was a hero.

negans redemption doesn't actually start until years after his arrest. and it happens through judith. a character who wasn't there for negans big performance but was directly effected by it. judith saw negan for what he was, a man trying to survive. and a man who was at the very least good enough that her brother wanted him not be be killed as his dying wish.

negan didn't ask for judiths redemption, she's just a child. but judith, in her childlike optimism, could see the "good" in him.

and objectively, negan was "good." he had his rules that made him better than a lot of other antagonists in the show. rules like no hurting kids, no sa, etc.

when the narrative did finally ask the audience and the characters to see things from negans perspective it wasn't forcing us (or the characters) to forgive him. but inevitably, many characters saw negan for who he was a person who did bad things to survive. and the audience could choose what they wanted to do with that.

in fact, there's a character who, much like much of the audience, refused to forgive negan. maggie was the most affected by negans little performance as it killed her husband in front of her while she was pregnant. and negan never asks her forgiveness, he never expects it. negan doesn't want to be redeemed by anyone let alone maggie. he is only good to maggie as a debt to be repaid. one that he also agrees will likely cost his life.

negan is the perfect example of how redemption isn't just a part of the narrative. a character's redemption doesn't come from the story, or even just the characters in the story. redemption comes from the audience AND the characters agreeing to redeem that character. and the audience and characters don't have to agree on the redemption.

but the thing about gerrard is that he wasn't redeemed by anything. he wasn't redeemed by the narrative because the story was telling us that bobby came up with a plan and gerrard agreed because it suited his interest. he wasn't redeemed by the the characters because it was still pretty clear (at least to me) that the 118 still don't like or forgive gerrard just because he did one good thing, for his own interests. and he wasn't redeemed by the audience because as far as the audience ive interacted with have told me, they still hate that man.

the narrative can't force the audience to redeem someone. that's why the audience is there. the audience is as much a character in the show as the actual characters. especially in the age of social media. so if you hate gerrard still, good you're supposed to.

nothing about gerrard changed so why would we consider one good action a redemption arc? was buck suddenly a villain for filling the lawsuit? no. was eddie suddenly a villain for hurting chris? no. was hen suddenly a villain for cheating on karen? no. was chim suddenly a villain for punching buck? no. then gerrard wasn't suddenly a hero for turning on his body cam and egging on ortiz.

storytelling isn't the place for black and white thinking. there's so much nuance in it. if the show was constantly telling you exactly what to think it would be bad tv. gerrard wasn't redeemed in the same way the buckley parents weren't redeemed, in the same way the diaz parents weren't redeemed, in the same way tommy wasn't redeemed.

thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[moltensmusings]

I was wondering what your thoughts were on the battle of fairy tail arc and what if anything you would change. Personally I would have liked it if they Laxus had a better relationship with the thunder legion - or there had been some stuff before that showed they were close so his spiral over the arc into being kinda a dick to them too was more shocking. On a side note, I'm kinda sad they didn't include in the anime the scene where he overhears people bashing fairy tail in a pub and beats them up because I feel it speaks to his character more!

Anyway I've been really enjoying your headcannons and they've made all the arcs you've discussed better in my head lol

Thank you! My goal when thinking up rewrite ideas/alterations is always to enhance the story presented more than fully, outright change it to something else entirely.

I didn't read the manga prior to Grand magic games since I was anime only, but I probably should at some point because scenes like that would be interesting to see!

I fully agree with you on the "Laxus should've cared point". One point I always think about every arc is just how much Mashima doesn't trust his audience to hate villains without making them horrible, sadistic people. Now I don't need villains to be written as redeemable, I myself thoroughly enjoy writing heinous individuals who are cruel to their core with no regard for life outside of their own (and even sometimes no regard for that). But if you want to make a villain that the audience can accept as redeemable you either need to make them complex and sympathetic, or show us their hard earned redemption.

Now, for Laxus, I personally would've made it clear that he cares about Fairy Tail members. Not just the reputation of the guild. Though his ego and insults towards others would often have people believing that. Makarov and Erza would both be capable of seeing through this and understanding that every criticism he has towards his guildmates comes from a place of trying to help them get better to keep them safe. I'd hint at him having a history of being close to guildmates who die or leave due to permanent damage sustained on missions.

This underlying care would be the reason Makarov would believe him to be the one right to take over as master. Because in spite of his inflated self worth, he still cared for his family.

Phantomlord arc would've been his breaking point, I would remove the scene of him saying he'd only help if Lucy dated him (that was only added to make him hate worthy) and have it simply be that he can't be reached due to a mission with the thunder legion. A rift forming between him and Makarov for Makarov letting Gajeel into the guild with no explanation after the dude hospitalized team shadowgear and tormented Lucy would cause him to believe Makarov incapable of putting the safety of the guild above the redemption of enemies.

The battle of fairy tail would be his way of proving to various members that they aren't cut out to be mages because if they can't even take care of themselves in a controlled environment, how can they hope to do so out in the field. He'd have a desperation as well to show that he is the strongest person in the guild thus the only one capable of stepping up to the role of guild master (Him having divine magic in the au would also explain this solid belief, god given magic and all that.) Rather than getting angry when Evergreen, Bixlow, or Freed loses, there would be a resignation that they aren't meant to stay. A sadness to it because he'd have known them all for almost a decade at this point.

"Why would people get frozen in stone" rather than it being all the girls who competed, it would be every member he deemed too weak to compete safely. People who use primarily support magic or haven't been with the guild long enough to make a mark in his memory of what they're capable of. Erza would be post tower of heaven nerf at this point so she'd be far below her normal strength level.

Makarov nearly dying this arc rather than being a moment of elation, would simply reinforce his need to get things done. To prove his own strength and take the position he was destined for.

When Makarov sends him off to self reflect he would note "You can't know what will come of people. Dangers exist in the world whether you're part of a guild or not. People will do as they please and all you can hope is to prepare them for what comes."

I would also throw in a few flashback scenes during the arc, scenes of guild members interacting with Laxus and Laxus meeting/grouping up with the thunder legion. I'm personally partial to Makarov raising Erza post tower of heaven so I'd have loved if prior to this arc we got some Erza/Laxus sibling scenes.

Again: I don't need villains to be tragic always, I think gajeel being a horrible person that has to earn his place is something I like (wish it was better handled) but for characters like Laxus I think them being complex and sympathetic is crucial. Especially when we don't see them until they've completely changed.

[altocat]

I have a question.

I think Genesis' parents were one of the best people in the game, they were rich people who decided to adopt a victim of child experimentation and falsified reports to shield Genesis from having ShinRa's interest, thus risking their lives. Also, Angeal said he didn't steal from them, not because he was afraid of them punishing them, but simply because he was a friend with their son. As far as I understand, all canon info about them is pointing to them being amazing people, though it's possible I missed something.

Why do you think people write/hc them as shitty people who deserve to die? What canon info says they're bad?

You often say Sephiroth is a horrible monster with absolutely no hope for redemption for killing people in Nibelheim, which is true.

Why do you think Genesis is a cute baby boy for killing everyone in Banora, including his parents, who earned his redemption with his virtuous acts? Were people in Banora all monsters?

Sorry if it's a weird question, but I keep wondering about it and curiosity got the best of me. Genesis and Sephiroth killed people when they were blind with their desire for revenge, but Sephiroth didn't kill his family. What makes it a redeeming act for Genesis?

It's very likely that Genesis' parents were fully aware of the experiments and were in on it the entire time. Genesis hints as much when he claims that they betrayed him, much in the way of how Shinra betrayed him. Additionally, they did not lie on behalf of their son WILLINGLY, only because Genesis threatened them. They probably would have readily given him up to Shinra, despite the fact that he's their son.

Add to this the very odd fact that Genesis keeps a collection of his childhood accomplishments OUTSIDE of his old home, as well as the fact that Hollander, Hojo, and Gillian were ALL in the know about the experiments, it's very, very likely that Genesis always felt disconnected from his parents and that they were very much in league with his abusers. If it happened with Angeal, then there's no way Genesis' parents didn't know. And I highly doubt they took him in out of the kindness of their hearts considering that he just enlisted in SOLDIER the second he came of age. Likely he was being groomed since childhood into joining Shinra's ranks.

I think that Genesis probably had a very good reason to be angry. And to feel betrayed by his parents. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can add extra details to this to polish up what I'm trying to say, but Genesis is just as much of a victim as both Angeal and Sephiroth. He was still being integrated into Shinra and there was no way they were ever going to let one of the top specimens of Project G live a normal life. Angeal's family was not rich because Gillian refused to let Shinra/Hollander compensate them. Who's to say that Genesis' parents weren't rich partially because they were high status allies to Shinra? Why else are they in Shinra's contact list?

And another thing to note:

When Genesis kills his parents (offscreen), he is suffering from the effects of the Degradation Process. He is literally performing an act as a result of mind-altering internal decay and possible brain damage. I'm not doing to pretend that killing one's parents is a cool and okay thing to do, but this is a scenario in which an effectively dying man being ravaged by sickness is killing his parents out of the perceived likelihood that they were in league with the people who did this to him. And probably had more than enough reasons to confirm that his suspicions were true.

Compare to Sephiroth, who killed other people's parents, who were completely innocent and had nothing at all to do with what Shinra did to him.

[dearmyloveleys]

Times Ep 33 made me go (??) + some yaps about Ying Lei, Siheng, and Baijiu's.. if you've watched the last few episodes, you know what I'm referring to

apologies if this is on the neg/critical side but I'm rewatching it and there are things I picked up after emotions have subsided from the first time I watched it

spoilers!

Siheng died from... a torn arm? He literally got stabbed in the chest in Ep30 by Li Lun and disappeared into sparkles. I thought he was going to die in that Ep30 scene ngl

Since we're on Ep30, I get that Li Lun doesn't want to fatally harm Ying Lei. All his attacks are at Ying Lei's non-vital points, which checks out. And yet... Ying Lei... dies? The more I think about it the more I think that the writers don't want to villainize Li Lun completely, to justify his return and redemption in Ep 32/33. If Li Lun actually sent a clear, fatal blow, to Ying Lei, Ying Lei's death would have been more justified but at the cost of completely villainising Li Lun. The writers don't want that. So they go the non-fatal blow route and have Ying Lei die... from idk what, a stab through the shoulder and a few whips. Ying Lei dying for Baijiu checks out for his story arc, but the manner of his death could be done better. Then again, I'm thinking, the only other antagonist to mercilessly kill Ying Lei is WZY, but they need to save him for the boss battle. So it only leaves Li Lun to inflict the 'killing' blow beforehand. This said, I still cried a shit ton at his death scene.)

Back to Ep 33, the barrier at the mountain god temple: So ZYC can enter but not exit? If the barrier was truly made to protect WZY and has been erected since a while back, nobody should be able to cross it in the first place as a double assurance (no entrance, no exit)

And in Baijiu's flashback: It's telling us that the barrier has been set up since the time he was still hanging around in Chongwu Camp. Iirc didn't that second in command literally stand in that altar room in the first few episodes with WZY, and this is set I think after Baijiu has left Chongwu Camp?

Lol WZY waited an eternity for yuanyi to complete their soulmate conversation, with ZYC in his killing grasp. I know you're waiting for the reincarnation to complete the power up, but... you can still take the mortal route of snapping his neck right. He doesn't need ZYC as hostage. The classic scene of villain watches heroes deliberate whether to take action.

My issue isn't that the deaths of Ying Lei and Siheng weren't unjustified. In fact, I believe Ying Lei's death, though not needed per se, was earned in battle. He was always going to protect and bring back Bai Jiu no matter the cost. Siheng was always fated to die. He's already dead, he needs to be dead for Sijing to fully come back to reality. It's just the manner in which they have written their deaths doesn't quite hit the mark. It's only the sheer talent of the actors that pulled the punches.

And of course we can't skip Baijiu's death. Now this. This. *looks at the camera like I'm in the office, though my eyes are red and snot is running down my face* This sounds really weird in text, but I think it's perfect. Perfect in pacing, perfect in its place in the story, perfect in emotional damage. There are some who think it's stupid for him to die because Ying Lei died for him and so many people have sacrificed parts of themselves to bring him back, but the others don't hold a candle next to how much ZYC means to him. He isn't going to simply let ZYC die on the other side. And he finally finds the courage he always wants to have, while protecting ZYC. HE HOLDS THE FUCKING BELLS WHILE- I will stop crying :) Though I am upset he completes his arc in death, it is not farfetched.

Ep 33 (and Ying Lei's death) has its heart in the right place but once again, shows that FoF has its strength in writing about the heart but not really the body of the story. It was actually going decently, and I never had the urge to point out the '??' times since Ep 17. A pity this happens in the second last episode. But I must say Ep 34 is written decently. Will see again tomorrow.

[eternal-sacrifice]

Been thinking about winners.... Then I thought too hard... Here's my thoughts on.. all of them,,,,

• IF bdubs won next season: he has earned it. It would be great seeing as last season was a 3rd life throwback and sort of a redemption, if the next season was his most difficult we could go full heros journey with this bitch and the win would be incredibly satisfying.

9/10 didn't realize I wanted him to win but, I'm rooting for him now! Convinced me

• If bigB won next season: please let him win. I need him to win. He hasn't gotten a single ounce of attention from the fandom in any of his 4 amazing story arcs, and maybe just maybe they would care about him if he won. With new members joining he could have a fresh start (again), maybe with a win he could pull ahead all on his own, just like he started 2 years ago.

1000/10 I NEEED IT

• if Cleo won next season: hggfhhfjg. Hfhfhgfgg... Divorce quartet real... The animations... The fanart..... It would be so cool. I don't think Cleos character has much motivation to win atm, but if she was forced into a position where she needed to take the win it could be a very refreshing twist on the story.

7/10 we love to see a king winning

• if etho won next season: hey sorry ethogirls I don't know him well enough- all I know is that the fans would become crazy and I'd become an ethogirl. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

• if gem won next season: okay, gem win would be awesome, yeah. Doesn't matter if everyone loves her, doesn't matter if everyone hates her, I just need her to be the main character, be confused, be crazy, die. It would hurt her character so deeply and would be genuinely amazing for her lore.

8/10 this would be sick

• if grian won next season: let's try that again baby! He might have won the first time with kindness, trust, loyalty and true friendship- but it can't be like that anymore can it. Everyone's left him, everyone's moved on, his life is falling apart, and for once he's barely stopping it. He's just trying to understand what's going on. He ends up in a similar situation to s1, and can't take it- he snaps, kills the other players, and wins once more, making everyone go crazy and the fandom die from shock immediately.

4/10 hmmmm

• if impulse won next season: HES BEEN SOOOOOO CLOSE FOR THE PAST 4 SEASONS. GIVE IT TO HIM PLEASE. only if he weasels his way in though, I love it when he's a lying little cheat and a freaky lil traitor. He needs everyone in his life to leave him or trust him completely and I will die on that hill.

7/10 hehehehe impman

• if Jimmy won next season: ughhhhhhh. Okay. So. Canary boy. He has never experienced pain before in his entire life. For those reasons 1. I'd love for him to win so he can finally understand the series he's in 2. I'd hate for him to win because nooo he broke the curse :((

Canary/10

• if Joel won next season: SBDBDJSKXBJDBXKSDBJDHSHAHDH THAT WOULD BE SO GOOOOOOOD WAIT WAIT WAIT I HADN'T EVEN CONSIDERED- so he's been alone the past 4 seasons, yeah. Even during double life with his loving husband, he knew he would end up alone again in the end, so it was all for nothing in his eyes. He gave his full trust and loyalty to his boys, something he's not used to, and if next season he's alone again- he can't take it. He goes about it smarter then last life, though- he keeps to himself, makes himself stronger the whole season, builds companionship with people (they're not used to him being so friendly), and wins with a last minute betrayal or simply being the last man standing. He would barely expect it, but it would heal his character so much, and also break him.

9/10 WOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!you better do this right asshole. Just kidding however he wins will be perfect

• if Lizzie won next season: similar to gem, but with more spite, and more guarenteed loneliness. It would be- really hard for her to take another season. All of her allyships would be strained, and I can totally see her joining or even commanding another big group, but she'd be alone in reality. A win for her would be cruel.

5/10 queen please

• if martyn won next season: illegal

• If mumbo won next season: I'd go crazy. Mumbos got so many satisfying ways to take his character, and the FANART and god lhbevfuebejrkje. Hes only been there once. He never learned how to play the game. If he won this time- hendndjdjbthekdndkelkebek 500/10 I need it

• if pearl won next season: as much as I would love for her to win again, 1. Too soon, she hasn't recovered from the first one please 2. The fandom would hate her for it 3. She already got what she needed from her first win. It'd be unnecessary for her character arc. It's very unlikely anyways, I'm sure if she got in that situation again, which might happen, she'd give it to whoever else is there.

3/10 I'm sorry goddess

• if Ren won next season: PLEASEEEEEE BE KIND TO HIMMMMMM honestly I think they would just give him the win. He's gonna get in a nice group, they're gonna have loyalty to him and he's gonna have loyalty to them, and wherever it goes he's gonna end up in the endgame again. Everyone there will understand that he deserves that win. If they don't martyn will kill em all into understanding lol. Maybe we could get a desert duo "you can kill me" moment but martyn refuses and kills himself. That would be so cool of him actually

7/10 my doggo deserves love but not like this

• if scar won next season: :3c

He need to okay. He needs to. I don't care how it happens I don't care when it happens I just need him to murder grian and get the win. I need him to understand that HE DESERVES TO WIN. he's gone through so much and he still doesn't understand his self worth, but if he kills that stupid bitch and calls upon old allies to help him get to the end- it could be so lovely oh my god

10/10 my brother in Christ

• if Scott won next season: this would kill him he would leave

0/0 I'm scared

• if skizz won next season: okay his story thus far wasn't amazing, oh wait it was. ACTUALLY HIS LIMITED LIFE WAS THE ONLY GOOD LIMITED STORY(completely untrue but listen IT WAS FULL, THERE WAS A WHOLE CHARACTER ARC even if it was good person to better person, HE IS SO TALENTED AND CHARISMATIC IF HE TEAMED UP WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE NEXT SEASON I COULD TOTALLY SEE IT BEING AMAZING. HE DESERVES IT. AND HIS WIN WOULD BE AWESOME.

9/10 he's pretty give me a break

• if tango wins next season: okay while all of his seasons other then last life have been boring it could be fun. I mean okay, double life wasn't boring. And I can't say anything about 3rd life. Sure, jeez, he can win. Just need him to get mad and kill some guys first ^_^

5/10 go for it guy

Sorry I advance to everyone I angered deeply with this post, I don't know all the characters perfectly. I can't wait to see this age like fine wine with the next season, honestly whoever wins I'll be crazy about no matter what. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this!

[nevertheblood]

66 + dazango !!! 👀 teehee

hello. so, uh. this got so far away from me that I think it is not a drabble anymore or even anything close to it.

the problem is that this song is so damn perfect for dazango-- I actually SCREECHED when I opened my spotify to check it.

and then as usual for me I went on a 'let's emotionally torture ango sakaguchi' runaway train and... here we are.

I may post this to ao3 once it's been proofread lol THANK YOU FOR SENDING THIS I HAD A LOT OF FUN WRITING IT!

probably OOC since it's unbeta'd and i wrote it in two days but ANYWAYS HERE--

dazango x never say die by chvrches ~~

Wasn't it gonna be fun and wasn't it gonna be new?

Wasn't it gonna be different and wasn't it gonna be true?

Didn't you say that? Didn't you say that?

Weren't you gonna be sorry and weren't you gonna be pure?

Weren't we gonna be honest and weren't we gonna be more?

Didn't you say that? Didn't you say that?

All you want is to play at playing God

But I'm falling in and falling out

Never, never, never ever

Never ever, ever say die

“You lied to me.”

It’s not a question. Ango doesn’t ask how he found out – Dazai always knows, somehow or other.

Ango also knows better by now than to make excuses.

“Yes,” he says. “Or rather – obfuscated the truth.”

“They are the same thing,” Dazai says, “When you make your business out of deceit.”

Ango sees his point, but really… it was an inconsequential thing. Sort of.

He’d told Dazai he’d be out of town for a meeting – that much was true. He’d neglected to mention that it was overseas, with one of the Port Mafia’s subsidiaries in Hong Kong.

What does it matter? Dazai is years out of the mafia. His dealings with them, and for the most part Ango’s as well, are a thing that lives only in memory, steeping silently in regret and anger all the while.

It’s not any of Dazai’s business, what Ango does for work. Shouldn’t be anyone’s business, given the layers and layers of secrecy involved. 

It was just a meeting. Surface level intelligence gathering, that was all – no deals, no tricks, no subterfuge.

Dazai’s been four years out of the mafia, it’s true, but his eyes, right now – they carry that same cold steel as back then, the bite of a bullet, the only light therein the flash of a gun’s muzzle.

He is angry.

“I know that we have… a certain arrangement,” Ango says carefully. He doesn’t really know what to call it, the thing that exists so nebulously between he and Dazai. The two of them meet somewhere at a crossroads of misplaced trust and hotel bedsheets and guilty mouths and festering, rotted bitterness. “But my work is my work. It is separate from… what goes on between us.”

Dazai touches his cheek, the gentleness a startling counterpoint to the violence in his eyes, and Ango leans into it, a flower to the sun. It’s perhaps a little pathetic, the way he still takes in every scrap of affection from Dazai like a starving street dog begging for food, the way he craves it and hates himself for craving it. He doesn’t deserve it. He’s worked so hard to earn forgiveness and he still doesn’t deserve it.

“You promised me,” Dazai says softly, the thrum of his anger a quiet undertone, a subtle purr, a getaway car’s engine. “When we began this whole thing – that you would be transparent with me.”

“I am,” Ango insists, “To the best of my ability. You must know, with my work, that there are certain things that I cannot tell you. That I am honour-bound to secrecy.”

“Honour-bound?” Dazai’s low laughter causes something deep in Ango’s belly to burn, shameful, like a brand. “What honour can you say you have left?”

That’s cruel. Unnecessarily cruel, and it's not even wholly true. Ango wants to tell him so, to make him feel the same remorse – he knows it’s not possible, Dazai does not concern himself with guilt and he has never once looked for redemption – but even so, didn’t they cast this aside, when Dazai gave Ango the keys to his heart? Doesn’t Dazai love him, even a little bit?

He doesn’t have an answer to that. And he knows, of course, that he is without honour, without pride, so he stays silent.

“You promised me,” Dazai says again, and – is his voice cracking?

Ango hardly understands it at first. The emotion that has poisoned Dazai’s very veins ever since the Mimic incident – it has always been anger, cold and vicious and calm, murderous intent behind a blithe smile. Toxin in the blood, flowing downstream.

Ango has never once seen Dazai with sadness in his eyes.

“I really thought, this time – this time it would be different. You promised – ”

He is only repeating the same words, over and over, almost like a naïve child who is feeling the unfairness of heartbreak for the very first time. It doesn’t make sense. Dazai is not –

But then. Dazai had been merely eighteen, the first time. A boy, really. No matter how boldly he had worn the heavy black mantle of a mafia executive, that was all he had been, in the heart of him. A boy, who lost his best friend.

Four years down the line, he had only wanted something real to believe in. Something solid and honest and true.

And Ango had – once again – betrayed that fragile trust.

He can feel everything he's worked for, over the last four years, every time he’s put his life or his job or his self-respect on the line for Dazai, to crudely shape himself into something that might be worthy of forgiveness, of love, slipping away all too fast – sand into the bottom of an hourglass.

But it's different this time. It has to be.

He slips his hand into Dazai’s, where it had been resting at his side, and tries to curl their fingers together.

“Dazai,” Ango says, “I – it means nothing, I know. But for what it’s worth – I’m sorry.”

Dazai’s hand remains still and unmoving.

“I knew you would be angry,” Ango keeps trying, all the same. “That I had had dealings with the Port Mafia again, even indirectly. I knew that you would question me about it and that there would be certain answers I could not give, even to you. I wasn’t…” He takes a deep breath, here, the flinch before the inevitable pain of the honesty. “I wasn’t prepared for that conversation. And so I avoided it, like a coward. You are right to be angry. I do not blame you for that.”

Dazai stays silent. Ango isn't sure if there's a light of hope in his eyes or if it's the shine of unshed tears. Somehow he isn't as shocked by the idea of Dazai crying as he perhaps ought to be.

So many people think of Dazai as a cold machine, especially anyone who knew him in the mafia, but Dazai feels. Of course he does. That's Ango's whole issue. It’s only that... well. Used to being on the receiving end of nothing but Dazai's anger, his petty bitterness, Ango had allowed himself to forget that the man is capable of so much more.

“I did promise you that I would do better by you this time, when we began this,” Ango says, “And I… didn’t wholly live up to that, I don’t think. We should have had a conversation about that meeting. I should have known it would hurt you.”

Dazai shakes his head. “You find it too easy to fake it, still. Am I wrong?”

Ango sighs. Lets his shoulders drop heavily. “Maybe. Are you a saint, yourself? Do you ever drop your masks around your new agency friends? Do they know how many you’ve killed?”

Dazai is quiet for a moment. Ango wonders if he’s struck too deep of a nerve, if those tears are still stinging in Dazai’s half-lidded eyes. He does not let go of Dazai’s stubborn hand.

“I also swore to you that I would be better,” Dazai says hoarsely, “That I would let my anger lie, in the interest of building something new.”

Ango runs his thumb over Dazai’s bony knuckles. “That you did.”

Slowly, ever so slowly, Dazai’s fingers intersect with his.

Ango gives Dazai’s hand a tentative squeeze, as gentle as though his very bones were glass.

“That's exactly why I'm talking to you right now,” Dazai continues, “And not making arrangements for a bomb hoax at your apartment block.”

“Am I supposed to thank you for that?” Ango remarks dryly. To his quiet delight, that makes Dazai giggle. His eyes squeeze tightly shut when he laughs, and the tears gather in the wrinkle of skin at the corners.

“There's my Ango,” Dazai says softly, and oh, god, lovingly. It makes Ango dizzy.

It's confusing.

“What... what do you mean by that?”

“Well,” Dazai says, “Before you insisted on torturing yourself every time you looked at my face – and believe me, I know I pushed you into it, you don't need to remind me – you were quite unashamedly funny with me, in a disparaging sort of way. I'd missed that wit.” 

“Disparaging?” Ango remembers what Dazai means. Oda would meet Dazai's weirdness head on, and Ango was always the foil for their antics, the one who played it straight. None of it feels real, now. If not for Dazai standing in front of him with the same shared memory, Ango could be convinced it was only something he saw in some tragic play, and not something that he lived. It hurts to remember, still, a broken bone that healed wrong and aches in the cold. “You... liked that?”

“Was it really not obvious at the time?” Dazai's expression turns genuinely thoughtful. “You and he were the breath of fresh air I needed. My reality check when I was at my most insane. I thought it was clear that I worshipped you both.”

Ango suddenly finds it very hard to swallow. “No,” he says, with some difficulty, “I only recall seeing... how you felt for him. And... my own guilt, I think. Whenever you smiled at me I only thought of how I'd have to leave you.”

Neither of them can say his name out loud, even now. They tiptoe around the borders of grief, trying to grow something new from the rot within. Flowers pushing through cold concrete in an abandoned lot. 

“You have always held me at arm's length, haven't you?” Dazai says. Ango can't run away from that accusation, not when he's this close, this tangled up with him.

“I suppose I have,” Ango replies, a touch breathless.

Dazai closes what little distance is left between them and presses their foreheads together, cupping Ango's face with his free hand. Dazai has grown taller, Ango notices, and he has to look up now to see into those pretty dark eyes.

“You can let me in, you know,” Dazai tells him. “For fuck's sake, I gave you my heart, didn't I? Literally. I trust you. I hate that I do, I hate that I still need you, but you have to let yourself need me too or this all falls apart.”

“I do need you,” Ango cries out, squeezing Dazai's hand tighter this time. “I need you too much, that's the problem. I'm...” God, he feels flayed raw by all this. It's too much honesty for two men who make their living in lies. “I'm too afraid of losing you, after everything I've done.”

“Then stop pushing me away,” Dazai says. “Just because – what, you think you aren’t deserving of my affection? Because you’re afraid of the intimacy of letting me see the real you? Forget all that, just forget it.” He drops Ango’s hand and grabs his face with both hands. Deliriously, Ango notes the way Dazai’s smallest finger reaches all the way around to the back of his neck. Had his hands always been so big? “Listen. I know I can be… difficult. I know I can be an asshole. But just – let me have you, you fucker. And let me keep you.”

Let me keep you. Those words set something wild loose in Ango’s heart, something that flails and scratches and stings.

You could have this, it wails, rattling the bars of his ribcage. He wants you to stay.

“Dazai,” Ango says, softly. He tilts his head, leaning into Dazai’s touch. He can’t always tell when the man is being sincere – Oda had a knack for it that Ango never quite grasped – but he drops his pretences often enough around Ango now that he thinks he’s starting to see through them. “Don’t be cruel. Are you teasing me?”

“No,” Dazai answers, looking straight into Ango’s eyes, and the truth in it is so clear that it burns; like lake ice in your palm, a shot of vodka in your throat.

Ango feels it prickle in his skin, his hair, his tongue. He reaches up to curl his hand around Dazai’s wrist, feels the rough gauze of bandages under his fingertips.

Dazai’s lips part to take a breath – and Ango kisses him.

Sharing kisses is not new to them, of course. They began their quiet affair shortly before Dazai’s stint in prison, and continued it without pause after he got out. They have exchanged many kisses, spent many nights in each other’s embrace, but this – this is softer.

Pure, somehow, if that were something either of them were allowed to be.

Dazai pulls Ango closer, arms enfolding him, and Ango falls deeper into it, his hands circling around Dazai’s slim waist, his pretty waist –

It’s a lot. Ango starts to pull away first, still a little unsure, offering Dazai the space to back out.

Dazai, though, drags him back in, hands tangling in his hair, an unequivocal I want you. It’d be kind of an asshole move in any other scenario, but much like most things Dazai does nowadays, it’s an asshole move for the greater good, which means it’s allowed to fly.

Ango spreads his hands flat against Dazai’s chest, as though he means to push him away but knows he won’t. This embrace is all-encompassing, safe in its completeness, Dazai’s tongue tracing the edges of Ango’s teeth; his older, stronger hands cradling Ango’s head.

Dazai’s chest is broader, now, too, than Ango ever remembers it being back then – not that he’d held Dazai like this, in those days. He’d kept him at arm’s length, just like Dazai had said.

Not now. Not this time. Trial and error and trial and error and trial and fucking error it may take, but god damn it, Ango wants to make this work. For the sake of whatever shared legacy the two of them have left, and whatever shared future they might be able to build with the sheer force of this kiss.

Dazai is kissing him so hungrily, so fervently, and in the harsh press of his lips and hands Ango feels a sort of mirror image, the same stubborn need that burns in his own heart.

As soon as I want something it is lost to me? Not this time. Not again.

When they finally draw apart, it’s as one, in a single-minded and mutual exhale of breath.

They’re nose to nose. Dazai’s dark eyes are the colour of whiskey on a polished oak bar.

Kisses aren’t new to them – but kisses that feel like a promise? Kisses that are warm and genuine and offered up in totality alongside a bared soul?

Ango’s heartbeat hums in his throat, behind his soft, wry smile. “Does this mean you’re thinking of forgiving me?”

“Forgiving you?” Dazai almost laughs. “Forgiveness is… complicated. It’s not something I put much stock in, anyway.”

“Then what do you put stock in?”

“The now,” Dazai answers simply. “The present moment, and the people in it.”

“How can you?” Ango says, forlornly. It’s halfway between an accusation and a plea for understanding. How, when our past is such an all-swallowing shadow, the mire that we pushed through to make ourselves who we are?

“Don’t misunderstand me,” Dazai says quickly. “I do not forget. I refuse to. I remember the way things were, and the way they ended.”

Something in the sharp and stubborn way he says it… maybe Dazai, too, is beginning to lose the edges of the memories to time. How, exactly, did Oda’s hair fall in his face again? Ango recalls that his voice sounded different after an hour in a smoky bar, but was it deeper? Scratchier? The details are indistinct, a photograph half-developed, like trying to find the shape of the horizon with the sun in your eyes.

 I do not forget. Even now, Dazai is lying, in a way. But it’s a small lie, one Ango will allow him to keep; to hold close in the secretive dark.

“Still,” Dazai says. He takes a breath in, and seems to centre himself again. He doesn’t bother with the happy-go-lucky fake smile, the one that barely even hides the outline of his pain, a thin veneer of paint over scratches in the walls. He knows that Ango knows that he hurts. “You know, I always think it’s bullshit when someone says oh, but it’s what they would have wanted. About someone who’s dead. You don’t know that, and you can’t very well ask ‘em. But, I do… very firmly believe… that us, well, trying – trying to make something newer and cleaner and better, and rebuilding it as many times as it takes because hell knows we’re fucked up people but we want to make it as good as we can get it, and it’s not because we feel like we need atonement but because we just… want to. I think…” He has to quietly pause to take a breath, and Ango understands. Sincerity is a weed, a sick and tangled thing that grows too fast. It makes you choke on the truth.

“I think he’d like that,” Dazai says eventually. “Do you… disagree?”

“You really don’t think he’d still resent me?”

“I do not,” Dazai says, and backs up his point with a kiss to Ango’s forehead. “He was not the same as me. He was better with... forgiveness, and things of that ilk; although not perfect - nobody is. But like I say. I don’t know, not for sure. That’s just something you gotta carry with you.”  

Ango huffs a weary sigh, and leans forward, using Dazai’s shoulder to rest his head. “I know,” he says into the lapel of Dazai’s coat. The tan one – Ango knows why he chose that colour. He wonders if anyone else does, or if he alone gets to share that soft and fragile part of Dazai’s soul.

“I know you know,” Dazai replies.

“Don’t be so damn smug.”

“I’m not.” He rolls his eyes. “It wasn’t like that. I meant to say that… you know. I get it.”

“You don’t do guilt,” Ango accuses him.

“Not really.” Dazai’s smile is pained. Not for the first time, Ango wonders if sometimes he wishes he felt more than he does. If he has ever wanted to atone for his crimes, for his brutality. “But I understand it. And I understand… the circumstances of it.”

Ango is still leaning on Dazai’s shoulder, and Dazai has to twist his head sideways to awkwardly press a kiss to Ango’s cheek. It ends up halfway on his ear, but that’s okay. They’re trying.

“You carry your pain,” Dazai says, “And I’ll carry mine. And that way we’re in it together – sort of.”

“Is this your version of empathy?”

Dazai shrugs. The motion half-dislodges Ango’s glasses. “Take it or leave it.”

Ango straightens up, looks Dazai in the eye. “I’ll take it,” he says, “For better or for worse.”

“For better, I hope,” Dazai says in a whisper so soft Ango can’t even be certain he meant to say it out loud.

“Yeah,” Ango says, “I’d like to think we tend towards the better, now.”

Dazai kisses him again, and the softest wingbeats of a fledgling hope start to flutter in his lungs.

Better this time, they said. We’ll do better this time.

[yannig]

I need someone to theorize with me about the Pit Babe 2 trailer

Ok so I thought a lot about Tony and Way being back. And I think we've got 3 options, ranked in how likely I think they are to actually happen.

They are actually alive (faked their death, resurrected, or maybe even clones/evil twins).

They are ghosts/spirits/whatever. They are there but still dead.

They are not here at all. All of their apparitions are due to nightmares, hallucinations, paranoia, flashbacks, etc.

I am entirely uninterested in them being actually alive, one way or another. I think this is largely the most underwhelming option out of the 3, and yet also the one we're most likely to get. For me, Tony and Way being back from the dead would just negate most of the impact of the first season.

Oh Way sacrificed himself to save Charlie as an attempt to redemption? Yeah no he's still alive actually. Tony was finally put done by the son he always treated like a dog, and who at last managed to escape his hold? Nope, he survived.

Talk about a way to undo major character moments. (I hated Way's death, but it was still an important character moment. and Kenta turning on Tony was great.)

(for Way as his own character, it could actually be interesting. Like "yeah no, you don't get to just die and be done with the guilt. you actually have to work for redemption". but 1) I don't think it's where they're going; and 2) I'm not convinced it would stem interesting development for anyone else.)

The ghost option could be fun, I guess. I don't really have an opinion either way tbh, depends where they go with it. Ghost possession could be a fun threat.

I know what my favorite option is, and it's definitely n°3, which sadly I don't think we will get. Mind you, Babe would be perfectly justified to have nightmares or flashbacks about these 2, considering how much trauma they gave him. Also Way giving Babe trauma flashbacks might help me forgive what they did to his character. But well. The show hasn't seemed very interested in talking about trauma before so...

Basically, I think the most interesting option is for the show to toy with its characters' (and its viewers') paranoia, by leaving all 3 options open for as long as possible. Done well, it could make for a very good thriller.

Are they actually back or is Babe just hallucinating in broad daylight? Are they actually vengeful ghosts that need warding against or is Babe just having very justified nightmares? Is there a threat at all or are they all just paranoiac after everything that happened? Is it really paranoia if they're really after you? They all thought Charlie was dead, didn't they? Does anyone ever stay dead?

I'd argue that if that thriller part is done well, all 3 options could work as compelling endings. I also don't think (from the writing in season 1) that they could pull it off effectively.

Or even that they would try. Season 1 wasn't a thriller in the first place, and the S2 trailer isn't giving thriller either. My problem being: I'm not really interested by their return if it doesn't turn thriller.

Basically, what I'm interested in is what impact their return would have on the other characters, after thinking they were finally safe. Especially Kenta and Babe. Kenta who finally escaped, finally managed to turn on Tony, to get free from him. Babe who is finally safe after spending the last 10 years looking over his shoulder, after so many betrayals, after loosing his best friend in all possible ways, after thinking his boyfriend was dead. Imagine how terrifying the prospect of Tony's return would be.

But beyond that? I have no interest in what they would do as independent characters. Tony has plans? What does it change from S1? Way is being an idiot, either working for the villain or clumsily trying to earn his redemption? I don't care. That is the exact same thing they were doing in S1.

Basically, I'm afraid that by bringing them back, the show is just being lazy and re-creating the S1 status-quo instead of imagining new stakes. And I am entirely uninterested in sequels that just undo the original story's ending. Which is exactly what I'm afraid they'll do.

TLDR: the psychological impact of the potentiality of Tony and Way being back is much more interesting than them actually being back.

Sure, give me confirmed omega characters (Jeff and Kenta at least), give me AlanJeff and BabeCharlie being cute together, give me Sonic and North finally getting somewhere and maybe involving Kim (or aro/ace/aspec Kim, that would also work, but only if explicitly stated in the show), give me heats and mpreg and stop being cowards. I'll watch it for the relationships between the main cast if nothing else.

But I'm worried about what the big conflict is going to be.

[petitprincess1]

How the duck was Sir Pentious's redemption rushed? He's been shown throughout the show to be a genuinely kind and caring person when push comes to shove. And he was super eager to join Charlie's program when she gave him a second chance. Plus he gave the ultimate sacrifice for his friends without knowing that he would end up in Heaven so yeah. Sir Pentious 100% earned his redemption. Good for you Sir Pentious

I think people say it's rushed bc the way the writing focused more on Angel Dust than anyone else. But I think that's fantastic, to be 100% honest.

Vivzie purposely wrote it where we were sure that Angel was the first to be redeemed. It was to a point where we completely ignored Pentious, especially since it seemed like he was more of a jokey villain. We completely ignore the fact that he was truly remorseful of his actions and that he genuinely wanted to change. Not only that, but he was constantly showing that he had a heart. Like having a concern for Charlie's relationships and saving Niffty from being harmed.

These were such small moments that we didn't think to care. And then the very end, he sacrificed himself, knowing that he was going to die. Even if his death ray shot Adam, it most likely wasn't going to kill him. Either way, Pen knew that this was the end for him.

He got redeemed bc he wanted to protect those he cared about. He was "Out For Love". And not to say the others weren't. It's just that they have a lot more going on, including not owning their souls, that would require more than just a "sacrifice" for them to be redeemed.

[powerpuffobsession]

All this Charlie and Lucifer conflict feels so fake and thrown in for drama points. Because it's hard for me to sympathize when watching two characters who barely have any hardship in their lives, imitate having to go through hardship. That's why I kinda rolled my eyes at "More than anything" part of the episode. No tears whatsoever

The whole daddy issues problem doesn't even make sense from a realistical stand point. You both are non aging, powerful (although Charlie refuses to use her powers, but they are clearly there) beings who barely have any problems in your lives. You were even spared from the exterminations, even though Heavens could have easily disposed of a fallen angel and his off spring a long time ago! (and Charlie just had to abuse that generosity) Everything is just dandy, lots of viewers of Hazbin hotel would kill for a life like that. Sinners who get killed can f*ck themselves. They are criminals, after all

Lucifer, I understand being upset the first few years after your wife left. But seven years? Wouldn't that get old? When you are a powerful being who has an already grown up daughter who doesn't need to rely on you, unlimited resources and his own kingdom (that he got for screwing up humanity, mind you)? Overkill much. Just find yourself a new love or go fix your damn hell ring and maybe ensure that rapists actually go to the boiling pot instead of owning a glamorous business to thrive on

Charlie is less guilty than her father, as he did ignore her and failed to teach her basic skills of standing up to herself and ruling a place. If a rich guy fails his kids that way, he's trash, because like, dude you've got resources and time, just use them to do bare minimum for your child. So Charlie's problems with running the hotel make sense (even though if she truly was passionate about helping someone, she would have made an effort to plan it out more properly so that the redemption doesn't happen by accident in a damn war)

That way, Lucifer's complaints about his life make me want to just roll my eyes. Even back in heaven he had one job of not giving the humans the damn fruit, I sincerely doubt that he, as one of the seraphims had no idea of the consequences of that. If he didn't wreck up his siblings' work, he would have still be living in Heaven. And, as I mentioned earlier, he didn't even get punnished properly for the fruit incident - wings still intact, all his powers and the ability to just magic up any goods out of thin air or to defend himself against a freaking angelic exorcist, let alone sinful criminals, is still there. So what's the problem?

Generally, what stops both Lucifer and Charlie from communicating/meeting each other? They never had any sort of fight that would have made their relationship truly sour, and Lucifer is not a heartless calculating abusive father he was believed to be in the pilot era. Charlie is barely loaded with the hotel work, she basically just plays trust games with sinners, and that's all

They like, stay away from each other when they have no reson to and then whine about it. Duh, some irl families who are actually struggling with life and actually have little time and vital strength do communication better than a fking rich magical seraphim and his daughter

And yes i'm jealous of a cartoon fallen angel. In canon biblical lore, Lucifer is actually punished for his actions. But not this Lucifer. You say Adam is spoiled? And least with him there's a possibility that he had to survive on Earth and go through some serious crap before earning his place on Heaven. Lucifer meanwhile can shelter himself in his castle for 7 years wasting time making ducks and be just fine! I even dare say, he fakes his depression because he thinks it's cool or smth. Put the guy on a minimum wage job and other difficulties of a normal human life, and the pussy'll just die