#he didn't have to die to earn redemption

[martianbugsbunny]

I don't love Alexsandr Kallus because he's some precious, perfect paragon of a man; that's not what he is. I love Alexsandr Kallus because he was absolutely horrible and he changed. He made amends. He uprooted literally his entire life out of remorse for what he'd done in the past and determination to do better in the future. He sacrificed everything he'd ever built because it was built on the pain and death of others and he didn't want that to be the sum of his life anymore. He went into a future where all he knew he could expect was to be hunted because he was once the hunter and he wanted to make up for it. He opened his damn eyes and he looked at what he'd done and he said this isn't right, I'm going to be different from now on if it kills me. I love Alexsandr Kallus because he changed.

[ineffectualdemon]

I've been thinking about it

And I don't think what's needed to actually fix Shen Jiu and Yue Qingyuan's relationship is Yue Qingyuan confessing why he didn't make it in time unless it was immediately when they met at the conference

Because that's not what sets Shen Jiu on his path.

What set Shen Jiu down the road he traveled and ruined all his interpersonal relationships was that he briefly wished Yue Qingyuan had died rather then forgot him

And he was so horrified by having that thought that he decided he was born rotten and was a monster from birth. Because only a monster would think like that.

Some people were rotten from birth. Shen Jiu thought of himself in exactly this way - someone vile and poisonous from the start. Because, at that instant, he came to a crystal -clear realization:

That he's rather have met a Yue Qi who'd died in some unknown corner, his remains unsightly and forgotten, then a Yue Qingyuan who was elegant and powerful, his prospects and future boundless."

SVSSS English translation Vol 4 Pg 95

Later when Yue Qingyuan talks to Shen Jiu in the water prison they have this moment:

"Has Shidi ever considered that, if you hadn't treated Luo Binghe like that in the beginning, everything that unfolded today would never have happened?"

Shen Qingqiu burst into laughter. "Why does Zhangmen-shixiong say such ludicrous things? What's happened has happened! I've already 'considered' it hundreds and thousands of times! There is no 'if', no 'in the beginning' —there was never any chance of redemption!"

SVSSS English translation Vol 4 Pg 111

He doesn't see this going in any other way because how could it if he was "rotten from birth" he was always a monster in his mind so to him suggesting there were other options is silly.

When he sees how this breaks Yue Qingyuan's heart he accepts that Yue Qingyuan had done all he could and any debt had long been repaid. But it's what he says next that really says a lot about himself

"You should go," said Shen Qingqiu. "I'll tell you this: Even if all of this could be redone from the beginning, in the end, the conclusion would remain the same. My heart is full of malice, my insides hatred and resentment. Today Luo Binghe wishes for me to die horribly, and I have only myself to blame."

SVSSS English translation Vol 4 Pg 112

He's saying it this way to push Yue Qingyuan to give up on him. Shen Jiu knows he's been cruel and abusive and feels he earned his fate. Which of course he would. He killed his own abusers with his own two hands. He understands Luo Binghe's motivations and reasons and doesn't see how it could have gone any different.

Because he sees himself as an inherent monster from birth and he was projecting that same monstrosity onto Luo Binghe from the beginning.

Yue Qingyuan confessing wouldn't have fixed their relationship unless it had been in the first instant when they met again. If he had said "I was too late" instead of "Qi-ge let you down" that might have changed things. But once Shen Jiu thinks he would have preferred Yue Qi to have died then become Yue Qingyuan and soar above him Shen Jiu was doomed.

The only way to fix their relationship from that point is for Shen Jiu to confess and confront the fact that the person he is angry with and hates is himself and that he's trying to push Yue Qingyuan away for that reason.

Unfortunately in PIDW canon he was only able to do this in the water prison and he still tried to push away Yue Qingyuan (who offered to let Shen Jiu kill him??? I had forgotten that bit) to save him from Luo Binghe.

I was thinking about this because I remembered a post that someone wrote about Shen Qingqiu getting truth serumed but it exposing his real feelings not like hidden identities. Like he insults Airplane and then says "I actually enjoy your company and your writing when you focus on your world building and plot but I had how you squander your potential."

And that was obviously talking about Shen Yuan

But I think that sort of thing would actually fix a lot of Shen Jiu's interpersonal relationships but he'd be mad as hell about it. Again it would have to happen before Luo Binghe hit the sect but if he could voice and confront those self beliefs then there is the slightest chance he could be persuaded that he's wrong by the right person

But yes. The thing about Shen Jiu is by the time Luo Binghe meets him he is well and truly a monster. But he's a monster because he decided he was one inherently and that he was incapable of changing that fact about himself.

Shen Jiu was right. Going back wouldn't have changed anything because Shen Jiu doesn't believe himself capable of change.

Something would have to break through that self hatred and make him believe he can be better. That he doesn't have to live like that.

And Yue Qingyuan confessing wouldn't do that. It would just make the self hatred worse.

[bellabrady]

Why many people dislike Tommy Kinard

Listen, I don't like to try and dictate what characters others can like. However, I do find it concerning how quick so many people are to forgive a bigot who didn't even get a proper redemption. So, especially for those who simply don't really remember Tommy, here's a quick recap of him:

Let's start with Chimney Begins. Tommy is one of the firefighters at the 118 when Chimney becomes part of the team. The first thing Tommy says when Chim arrives is 'Hey Eli, did you forget to tip the delivery guy?' On its own, this isn't really bad, because it could very much just be a harmless joke. But in combination with Tommy's behavior throughout the rest of the episode, one could argue the comment has racist undertones. But this one's up to interpretation so let's move on.

Although not explicitly stated, it's very obvious the 118 captain is racist which is reflected in the way he treats him: he only lets him do annoying chores, is a jerk towards him, actively isolates him, and so on.

The rest of the team, including Tommy, does nothing to try and change this. In fact, they actively take part in isolating him too, for example by letting him sit by himself at a tiny table instead of the group table while they eat. Even when Chimney attempts to talk to them, everyone but Eli (the paramedic who ends up training Chim) blatantly ignores him.

One time, Chim and Tommy are alone in the locker room and Chim says: "Hey man, let's build a bridge here." Tommy doesn't even react. Chim keeps making suggestions of things they could talk about, like movies or sports, to which Tommy still doesn't react except by rolling his eyes. Chim then asks: "You just really don't like me much, do you?" and Tommy responds: "If I thought about you at all, honestly, I probably wouldn't."

Mind you, he doesn't even know Chimney and yet he's pretty sure he wouldn't like him. What exactly is he basing that on? Race, perhaps? (Tommy is very close to some other guys on the team by the way.)

Eli tells Chim that the treatment isn't personal and that the reason everyone is so distant is because in this job, friends die and that the team isn't just gonna give Chim their friendship until they earn his respect. "You don't name a puppy until you know it's gonna pull through."

In my opinion this is absolute bullshit though. You cannot tell me every single probie at the 118 has been treated this way for weeks (maybe months? I don't remember exactly). Also, keeping someone at a distance doesn't mean you have to treat them like literal dirt. It's also worth mentioning that once the captain, Tommy and his best friend leave the 118, no probie seems to ever be treated this way again. So if it's about the nature of the job, why wasn't it like this for everyone? So, despite what Eli said, I think Chim's treatment was definitely caused by racism.

Eventually, Chimney is finally allowed out on calls and risks his life to save Tommy's, which basically makes Tommy go: "Oh hey! Maybe I could treat this guy like a human being?" He thanks him for saving his life and from this point on they're friends. I don't know about you guys, but personally I think someone who doesn't see it fit to treat you like a person until you save their life doesn't seem like a very great guy.

Let's move on to Hen Begins. The 118 is still under the same captain, who is also a misogynist. Unlike the racism, this isn't only implied but confirmed.

I've seen people argue that Tommy can't be blamed for not standing up to his captain because that's his boss. And yet, when the captain says "This is our new diversity hire" about Hen, Chimney says, "You know, Cap, there's another way to say that," which immediately proves that Tommy could stand up to him as well, and simply doesn't have the guts.

They treat Hen similarly to the way they treated Chim. Tommy, along with everyone else but Chim, for example throws some gear on the ground before Hen's feet so she takes care of it, not saying so much as a single word to her in the process.

Chim tries to make conversation with Hen and says "I would've bet money that you were from the east coast, you just kinda have that vibe." Hen laughs and says "Thank you for the compliment?" to which Tommy replies: "New York bitchiness is a compliment?"

He doesn't even know Hen and she's done nothing that could be seen as 'bitchy.' Just some good ol' fashioned misogyny. Chim also recognizes that comment for what it is immediately because he goes "woah, woah, nobody said anything like that, come on." Tommy only huffs in annoyance as a response.

The captain then goes on a rant about how training female firefighters is a waste of money and Chim once again stands up for Hen, unlike everybody else, including Tommy, who just lets the misogyny stand.

It isn't until Hen rescues someone on a call that Tommy and his friend admit they wouldn't have found in time, that they finally treat her like a person. You'd think they'd have learned from Chimney that maybe people shouldn't need to prove themselves to you in order for you to treat them like a human being, but apparently not.

Ultimately, the team submits complaints against the captain and supports Hen but if you ask me, this should've happened a lot sooner and not only after they deemed her worthy.

And that's pretty much all we see of Tommy, except for some short scenes in Bobby Begins Again in which he just interacts with his team until he leaves for a different station at the end of the episode. There's no redemption, no proper apology and, if you ask me, considering the fact that he treated Hen the same as Chim, there's also no development.

And yet there are people who will defend this man with their lives as if 90% of his screentime wasn't him being a bigot or at best a coward without the guts to stand up to his bigoted captain.

So yes, personally I think liking Tommy Kinard is weird.

[buffaloborgine]

Before reading, I want to emphasize, I don't hate Sephiroth as a character, I hate how some people dismiss all of his heinous acts and cling to "He is a victim" and shove the tragedy he caused onto other characters. About that one post about Sephiroth and someone replying to it, let me be clear: I don't deny Sephiroth was a victim. Like many, he was the victim of Shinra and Hojo, that's undeniable. But to write like he is a good person and all the bad things he did were influenced by his upbringing? NO. Sephiroth is selfish, and no matter what you try to bend the narrative to fit your imagination, it is a fact. When the theme of FFVII is about "imagination/illusion", if we use the structure of protagonist vs antagonist, Cloud is the one that was affected by the illusion but he accepted help from others and got over it. Sephiroth would simply be the reversed version of that, he wasn't even illusioned, he knew for sure what he is but deciding that it was better for him if everyone else, and even himself stayed in that illusion forever. Sephiroth wasn't the only character to be affected by Shinra's evilness, but then let's take a look at those who also were affected: - Zack once learned and accepted that Shinra is evil had started running away with Cloud. - Angeal and Genesis don't share the same reaction but eventually once accepted the truth, they both rebelled against Shinra (also Lazard). - The Turks and Rufus are easy to see, I don't need to explain. - The massacred 1st SOLDIER unit mentioned in Dirge of Cerberus, fighting against the creation of inhuman Deepground facility. - Deepground themselves, they know what they are and they fought against Shinra, knowing they would even die if they do. So many would say, but Sephiroth does disobey Shinra and that he wanted to leave Shinra. Vetoing orders onto co-workers' heads doesn't seem to be a good way to protest, rather that's just push the responsibility onto others. And about "wanting to leave Shinra", as far as I remember, Sephiroth just said he would consider the idea, not that he would ever leave, and even till the event of Nibelheim, he didn't leave Shinra, not at all. So let's put this together, should we just see Sephiroth as a victim and say he isn't accounted for other tragedy happened in FFVII? Personally? Of course not. There are other victims and they fought back their abuser in different ways, maybe causing mayhem on the route but they still fought for their freedom. Sephiroth has never once given a single thought for others, and he was comfortable staying in Shinra, after all, he got the privilege for 1st Class, can veto orders and get admired by other SOLDIERs. To debunk people who claim that Sephiroth was thoughtful about Genesis' injury: Who was the one causing that mess in the first place? And even when you look at the cutscene, it was less of caring thought but more of "Why I am inadequate for this?" If he was sincere, he would have gone to check on Genesis later, but nope, he assumed Genesis was fine, like really, what kind of friend is that? No fucking friend would just assume friend is fine knowing they are hurt, no fucking friend would just condemn friends as traitor while not knowing the reason why they leave, and no fucking friend would keep their friends in the dark while knowing they are being tricked, abused. In conclusion, please stop saying Sephiroth is a good friend to anyone. If he cannot earn Zack's forgiveness, he is a prick, but if even Weiss stood against him (in DFFOO), consider he surely won't get any redemption.

[sapphic-agent]

I would say that Bakugo failed as a deuteragonist and a failed attempt of having a redemption arc, is the mere fact that this charatcer has somehow got away with so many consequences that could actually made him learn that his vile, sadistic and inconsiderate personality will never earn him to become a hero he craved.

Heck, actually, UA could still get him to be enrolled but after; 1. ) Finding it suspicious that Bakugo doesn't bother to save any helpless citizen dummies, and seemed to be having more fun of destroying everything, 2. ) Decided to attack Izuku ( for a stupid reason ) that's got nothing to do with him under Aizawa's watch ( there could be a good reason why he didn't expel him sooner, is the mere fact he expelled the other students and Nezu forbid him to do it again ( as a warning ) ), 3. ) The final nail in the coffin is Bakugo not giving one single crap that Izuku could die from his Explosion Blast under Almight's watch.

With this three errors, Nezu wouldn't hesitate but to expel him, which could led to make Bakugo to learn that the world doesn't revolve around him. And oh boy, since in the series, Bakugo kept blaming Izuku for his own shortcomings, it wouldn't even be OOC for him to blame the green haired boy for his own actions.

He would be moved to another school of course, but afterwards, he'll kept blaming the victim by rationalizing in his head that it's Izuku's fault that ruined his plans to become 'The Best', and have to be sent another university that is 'second place' which could easily bruised his ego.

To me, this would at least make him unbearable cause in canon, he RARELY receives any consequences.

Honestly for me it could have been as simple as Class 1A being just as good as or better than Bakugou. That would have been a realistic way to humble him, finding out that he was just the biggest fish in a small pond before UA. And then because 1A has no reason to mince words with him, properly tells him off for his attitude and actions towards Izuku.

I would have been content with that

[spxdyr]

i can't sleep and i keep seeing people angry at gerrards "redemption" so i just wanna talk about redemptions again for funsies.

i genuinely don't think what gerrard did should be considered a redemption because it wasn't. gerrard didn't save the day, bobby and the rest of the 118 saved the day, gerrard was simply a pawn. he was the person who could realistically get close enough to ortiz to get her to let her guard down without raising any alarm bells.

gerrard only agreed because he would get something out of it. and i truly believe it isn't the what that makes a redemption but the why.

i'm gonna use prince zukos redemption arc from atla as my example/comparison genuinely i genuinely believe its one of the strongest redemption arcs in all of television history. i'm also going to use negans from the walking dead because its a very divisive redemption arc that i also believe is one the greatest in tv history because of what it isn't.

first, i want to emphasize that i wholly believe that redemption isn't up to the narrative its up to the audience. the narrative can try to convince you of anything but if the audience doesn't buy it, it doesn't mean shit.

but onto the actual point. gerrard did a good thing, he is not a good person. bad people do good things all the time because two things can be true at once.

the reason zuko has such a strong redemption arc isn't because he did a couple good things. its because we as the audience saw him go through genuine introspection and come to the realization that he wasn't a bad person doing bad things. he was a good person influenced by the people around him to do bad things.

but it also so good because we saw the episodes watching him not only ask for the Gaangs forgiveness but also the audiences. we as the audience were forced to sit down with zuko and decide whether or not we would be able to redeem his actions. and character by character we as the audience found ourselves forgiving him.

it also helped that zuko had a character in the show who was the mirror of his redemption. iroh was also a good person who did bad things but we are immediately forgiving of those bad things because we are constantly showed his goodness through zuko.

gerrard didn't have any of that. in fact the only characters that are still presented in the narrative that might mirror gerrard come in the form of tommy. who also didn't get actual redemption. he was granted forgiveness by passage of time. which as an audience member doesn't change how i view him.

zuko got redemption from both the narrative, the characters, and the audience because he earned it. gerrard didn't get redemption from either, he just did a good thing for personal gain.

on to negans redemption. i want to preface this by saying im a negan defender until the day i die so if you hate negan, disregard this i guess.

negan was offered a redemption by the narrative, the characters, and the audience, and technically he didn't take it.

the thing with the walking dead is that technically there's no heros or villains. there's just people trying to survive, the hero is whoever's story you're following the most and in this case it's rick and friends. there are however, people who are objectively worse than others (ie the guy who tried to sa a 12 year old carl).

negan wasn't a villain he was an antagonist. he was the very thing in the way of rick and friends' main goal, survival.

and he was a good at it. he was so good at it he killed two main characters in one episode, then about 2-3 more over the course of his run as the primary antagonist. then he lost. and spent years in jail for it.

and at no point during that jail time was he offered, nor did he ask for, redemption. because at the end of the day he did what he thought he had to, to survive. and to his people he was a hero.

negans redemption doesn't actually start until years after his arrest. and it happens through judith. a character who wasn't there for negans big performance but was directly effected by it. judith saw negan for what he was, a man trying to survive. and a man who was at the very least good enough that her brother wanted him not be be killed as his dying wish.

negan didn't ask for judiths redemption, she's just a child. but judith, in her childlike optimism, could see the "good" in him.

and objectively, negan was "good." he had his rules that made him better than a lot of other antagonists in the show. rules like no hurting kids, no sa, etc.

when the narrative did finally ask the audience and the characters to see things from negans perspective it wasn't forcing us (or the characters) to forgive him. but inevitably, many characters saw negan for who he was a person who did bad things to survive. and the audience could choose what they wanted to do with that.

in fact, there's a character who, much like much of the audience, refused to forgive negan. maggie was the most affected by negans little performance as it killed her husband in front of her while she was pregnant. and negan never asks her forgiveness, he never expects it. negan doesn't want to be redeemed by anyone let alone maggie. he is only good to maggie as a debt to be repaid. one that he also agrees will likely cost his life.

negan is the perfect example of how redemption isn't just a part of the narrative. a character's redemption doesn't come from the story, or even just the characters in the story. redemption comes from the audience AND the characters agreeing to redeem that character. and the audience and characters don't have to agree on the redemption.

but the thing about gerrard is that he wasn't redeemed by anything. he wasn't redeemed by the narrative because the story was telling us that bobby came up with a plan and gerrard agreed because it suited his interest. he wasn't redeemed by the the characters because it was still pretty clear (at least to me) that the 118 still don't like or forgive gerrard just because he did one good thing, for his own interests. and he wasn't redeemed by the audience because as far as the audience ive interacted with have told me, they still hate that man.

the narrative can't force the audience to redeem someone. that's why the audience is there. the audience is as much a character in the show as the actual characters. especially in the age of social media. so if you hate gerrard still, good you're supposed to.

nothing about gerrard changed so why would we consider one good action a redemption arc? was buck suddenly a villain for filling the lawsuit? no. was eddie suddenly a villain for hurting chris? no. was hen suddenly a villain for cheating on karen? no. was chim suddenly a villain for punching buck? no. then gerrard wasn't suddenly a hero for turning on his body cam and egging on ortiz.

storytelling isn't the place for black and white thinking. there's so much nuance in it. if the show was constantly telling you exactly what to think it would be bad tv. gerrard wasn't redeemed in the same way the buckley parents weren't redeemed, in the same way the diaz parents weren't redeemed, in the same way tommy wasn't redeemed.

thank you for coming to my ted talk.

[moltensmusings]

I was wondering what your thoughts were on the battle of fairy tail arc and what if anything you would change. Personally I would have liked it if they Laxus had a better relationship with the thunder legion - or there had been some stuff before that showed they were close so his spiral over the arc into being kinda a dick to them too was more shocking. On a side note, I'm kinda sad they didn't include in the anime the scene where he overhears people bashing fairy tail in a pub and beats them up because I feel it speaks to his character more!

Anyway I've been really enjoying your headcannons and they've made all the arcs you've discussed better in my head lol

Thank you! My goal when thinking up rewrite ideas/alterations is always to enhance the story presented more than fully, outright change it to something else entirely.

I didn't read the manga prior to Grand magic games since I was anime only, but I probably should at some point because scenes like that would be interesting to see!

I fully agree with you on the "Laxus should've cared point". One point I always think about every arc is just how much Mashima doesn't trust his audience to hate villains without making them horrible, sadistic people. Now I don't need villains to be written as redeemable, I myself thoroughly enjoy writing heinous individuals who are cruel to their core with no regard for life outside of their own (and even sometimes no regard for that). But if you want to make a villain that the audience can accept as redeemable you either need to make them complex and sympathetic, or show us their hard earned redemption.

Now, for Laxus, I personally would've made it clear that he cares about Fairy Tail members. Not just the reputation of the guild. Though his ego and insults towards others would often have people believing that. Makarov and Erza would both be capable of seeing through this and understanding that every criticism he has towards his guildmates comes from a place of trying to help them get better to keep them safe. I'd hint at him having a history of being close to guildmates who die or leave due to permanent damage sustained on missions.

This underlying care would be the reason Makarov would believe him to be the one right to take over as master. Because in spite of his inflated self worth, he still cared for his family.

Phantomlord arc would've been his breaking point, I would remove the scene of him saying he'd only help if Lucy dated him (that was only added to make him hate worthy) and have it simply be that he can't be reached due to a mission with the thunder legion. A rift forming between him and Makarov for Makarov letting Gajeel into the guild with no explanation after the dude hospitalized team shadowgear and tormented Lucy would cause him to believe Makarov incapable of putting the safety of the guild above the redemption of enemies.

The battle of fairy tail would be his way of proving to various members that they aren't cut out to be mages because if they can't even take care of themselves in a controlled environment, how can they hope to do so out in the field. He'd have a desperation as well to show that he is the strongest person in the guild thus the only one capable of stepping up to the role of guild master (Him having divine magic in the au would also explain this solid belief, god given magic and all that.) Rather than getting angry when Evergreen, Bixlow, or Freed loses, there would be a resignation that they aren't meant to stay. A sadness to it because he'd have known them all for almost a decade at this point.

"Why would people get frozen in stone" rather than it being all the girls who competed, it would be every member he deemed too weak to compete safely. People who use primarily support magic or haven't been with the guild long enough to make a mark in his memory of what they're capable of. Erza would be post tower of heaven nerf at this point so she'd be far below her normal strength level.

Makarov nearly dying this arc rather than being a moment of elation, would simply reinforce his need to get things done. To prove his own strength and take the position he was destined for.

When Makarov sends him off to self reflect he would note "You can't know what will come of people. Dangers exist in the world whether you're part of a guild or not. People will do as they please and all you can hope is to prepare them for what comes."

I would also throw in a few flashback scenes during the arc, scenes of guild members interacting with Laxus and Laxus meeting/grouping up with the thunder legion. I'm personally partial to Makarov raising Erza post tower of heaven so I'd have loved if prior to this arc we got some Erza/Laxus sibling scenes.

Again: I don't need villains to be tragic always, I think gajeel being a horrible person that has to earn his place is something I like (wish it was better handled) but for characters like Laxus I think them being complex and sympathetic is crucial. Especially when we don't see them until they've completely changed.

[altocat]

I have a question.

I think Genesis' parents were one of the best people in the game, they were rich people who decided to adopt a victim of child experimentation and falsified reports to shield Genesis from having ShinRa's interest, thus risking their lives. Also, Angeal said he didn't steal from them, not because he was afraid of them punishing them, but simply because he was a friend with their son. As far as I understand, all canon info about them is pointing to them being amazing people, though it's possible I missed something.

Why do you think people write/hc them as shitty people who deserve to die? What canon info says they're bad?

You often say Sephiroth is a horrible monster with absolutely no hope for redemption for killing people in Nibelheim, which is true.

Why do you think Genesis is a cute baby boy for killing everyone in Banora, including his parents, who earned his redemption with his virtuous acts? Were people in Banora all monsters?

Sorry if it's a weird question, but I keep wondering about it and curiosity got the best of me. Genesis and Sephiroth killed people when they were blind with their desire for revenge, but Sephiroth didn't kill his family. What makes it a redeeming act for Genesis?

It's very likely that Genesis' parents were fully aware of the experiments and were in on it the entire time. Genesis hints as much when he claims that they betrayed him, much in the way of how Shinra betrayed him. Additionally, they did not lie on behalf of their son WILLINGLY, only because Genesis threatened them. They probably would have readily given him up to Shinra, despite the fact that he's their son.

Add to this the very odd fact that Genesis keeps a collection of his childhood accomplishments OUTSIDE of his old home, as well as the fact that Hollander, Hojo, and Gillian were ALL in the know about the experiments, it's very, very likely that Genesis always felt disconnected from his parents and that they were very much in league with his abusers. If it happened with Angeal, then there's no way Genesis' parents didn't know. And I highly doubt they took him in out of the kindness of their hearts considering that he just enlisted in SOLDIER the second he came of age. Likely he was being groomed since childhood into joining Shinra's ranks.

I think that Genesis probably had a very good reason to be angry. And to feel betrayed by his parents. I'm sure there are plenty of people who can add extra details to this to polish up what I'm trying to say, but Genesis is just as much of a victim as both Angeal and Sephiroth. He was still being integrated into Shinra and there was no way they were ever going to let one of the top specimens of Project G live a normal life. Angeal's family was not rich because Gillian refused to let Shinra/Hollander compensate them. Who's to say that Genesis' parents weren't rich partially because they were high status allies to Shinra? Why else are they in Shinra's contact list?

And another thing to note:

When Genesis kills his parents (offscreen), he is suffering from the effects of the Degradation Process. He is literally performing an act as a result of mind-altering internal decay and possible brain damage. I'm not doing to pretend that killing one's parents is a cool and okay thing to do, but this is a scenario in which an effectively dying man being ravaged by sickness is killing his parents out of the perceived likelihood that they were in league with the people who did this to him. And probably had more than enough reasons to confirm that his suspicions were true.

Compare to Sephiroth, who killed other people's parents, who were completely innocent and had nothing at all to do with what Shinra did to him.

[notgonnaedit]

Beskar and Bone

Chapter 8: The Redemption

Summary: A lone bounty hunter must make his way through the galaxy as he cares for two children with mysterious powers.

Chapter summary: Trapped, Mando and his team face off against the new enemy

Warnings: Canon-typical violence, injury, fire, Moff Gideon having the best villain intro ever, Elaine being scared and sad, use of Mando'a, Auntie Cara at her finest (If I miss a tag LMK)

@thecoffeelorian @dreamsight73

Updates on Fridays. If you want to be tagged LMK

Master list

Mando held Elaine close to him as Cara and Karga searched for a means to escape.

 "Is there another way out?" Cara asked desperately.

Karga shook his head. "No, that's it."

Mando got an idea. "What about the sewers?"

Elaine lifted her head and looked at him. "Sewers?" She asked in a small voice.

Mando nodded. "The Mandalorians have a cover down there, they can help us escape."

"Yeah, sewers are good," Cara agreed.

Mando set Elaine down and began to use his thermal vision to look for a way out. "Checking for access points."

Cara shifted her blaster. "What the hell are they waiting for?" She risked a glance at the troopers, her face falling when she saw an all too familiar weapon. "Hold up. They're setting up an E-Web," she huffed.

"It's over..." Karga muttered hopelessly.

"I found the sewer vent," Mando announced. He moved to the far side of the room where a grate hid behind a few chairs. After moving the furniture, Cara and Mando attempted to pull the grate off to no avail.

Karga peeked out the blasted window again. "It's assembled! How long until that thing's cleared?"

"Blow it?" Cara suggested.

Mando checked his belt. "I'm out of charges."

Cara hefted her gun. "Get out of the way!" She fired at the grate, and Elaine sensed her start to panic when the grate stayed put."

"You're astute panic suggests that you understand your situation," the man outside said. "I would prefer to avoid any further violence, and encourage a moment of consideration. Members of my escort have completed assembly of an E-Web heavy repeating blaster. If you are unfamiliar with this weapon, I am sure that Republican Shock Trooper Carasynthia Dune of Alderaan will advise you that she has witnessed many of her ranks vaporize mid-descent facing the predecessor of this particular model."

All eyes turned to Cara. The veteran had visibly paled at the mention of her name and the loss of her comrades.

"Or perhaps the decommissioned Mandalorian hunter, Din Djarin, has heard the songs of the Siege of Mandalore, when gunships outfitted with similar ordnance laid waste to the fields of Mandalorian recruits in The Night of a Thousand Tears."

Elaine looked up at Mando and was sure if she could see his face he'd have an expression similar to Cara's. But the man didn't stop there. "Or perhaps even young Elaine Solace, the last of her kind, has a memory of her home being laid waste to, shortly before her planet, Ovain, was destroyed by the Death Star."

Mando looked down at Elaine, she was stareing blankly, her brown eyes wide with shock. She was too young to even remember her home being destroyed, and now she leaned the horrifying truth. He reached down to her, and the girl clung to his arm like a lifeline.

"I advise disgraced Magistrate Greef Karga to search the wisdom of his years and urge you to lay down your arms and come outside," the man continued. "The structure you are trapped I'm will be razed in short order and your storied lives will come to an unceremonious end."

Everyone looked at each other, unsure of what to do. Karga shifted his weight before asking loudly, "What do you propose?"

"Reasonable negotiation," the man answered, earning scoffs from them.

"What assurance do you offer?" Karga asked.

"If you're asking if you can trust me, you cannot. Just as you betrayed our business arrangement, I would gladly break any promise and watch you die at my hand," Elaine swallowed her bile as he continued. "The assurance I give is this: I will act in my own self-interest, which at this time involves your cooperation and benefit. I will give you until nightfall and then I will have the E-Web cannon open fire."

"I say we hear him out," Karga said.

Cara shot him a look that could kill. "The minute we open that door, we're dead."

Karga shrugged and poured himself a drink. "We're dead if we don't. At least out there, we've got a shot."

"That's easy for you to say," Cara's voice was wavering. "I'm a Rebel Shock Trooper. They'll upload me to a Mind Flayer."

"Those aren't real," Karga scoffed. "That was just wartime propaganda."

Cara hefted her blaster. "I don't care to find out. I'm shooting my way out."

Elaine looked up at Mando. He had been extremely quiet the whole time. She reached up and tugged on his hand. "Mando?"

"I know who he is," he responded. "It's Moff Gideon."

Cara looked at him, a mix of fear and denial spreading across her face. "No. Moff Gideon was executed for war crimes."

"It's him. He knew my name," Mando said confidently.

"So?" Karga asked. "What does that prove?"

Mando seemed like he was in another place "I haven't heard that name spoken since I was a child," he glaced down at the girl by his side.

"On Mandalore?" She asked.

Mando shook his head. "I was not born on Mandalore."

Karga was just as confused as Elaine. "But you're a Mandalorian."

Cara looked at her armored friend. "Mandalorian isn't a race."

"It's a Creed. I was a foundling. They raised me in the Fighting Corps. I was treated as one of their own. When I came of age, I was sworn to the Creed," he looked down at Elaine, as if every word he spoke reminded him of her. "The only record of my family name was in the registers of Mandalore. Moff Gideon was an ISB Officer during the purge. That's how I know it's him. That's how he knows who we all are."

Mando looked around at everyone before telling them his theory. "He says he need us, which means the Child got away saftey," Elaine brightened slightly at that. "I was worried when the Ugnaught didn't respond, but if they'd captured the kid, we'd already be dead."

Cara nodded slowly. "Hail them again."

Mando raised the comm to his helmet. "Come in, Kuiil. Kuiil? Nothing." 

But just then, a soft coo was heard over the comms, followed by a artificial voice. "Kuiil has been terminated."

Elaine felt Mando's anger rise as he asked, "What did you do?"

"I am fulfilling my base function," IG said.

"Which is?"

"To nurse and protect," outside, they heard faint sounds of blaster fire and troopers yelling. They all peered out, and were met with the sight of IG gunning down the troopers on a speeder bike with the Child strapped to him. The droid jumped off the speeder as it crashed into a building, sending a fire explosion through the Imperial ranks.

Mando turned to Elaine. "Stay here," he jumped over out the window. "Cover me."

Cara vaulted over the bar and began firing as Mando and Karga began their assault. Elaine watched nervously as the battle ensued. Mando fought his way to the E-Web, where he lifted it off it's stand and began to use it against the troopers. Gideon's disoriented troops were disintegrated, but Elaine watched Gideon. He had stood back during the battle, but he was now holding a blaster aimed at Mando.

Acting on instinct, Elaine ran out to him. "Mando!" But she was too late. Moff Gideon fired and hit the canisters of explosives behind Mando. The armor clad man was thrown forward in the blast, and he lied on the ground motionless. Elaine rushed to him, as did Cara. Karga and IG covered them and closed the bar door as Cara dragged Mando back into the bar.

"Stay with me, buddy," she grunted. "We're gonna get you outta here."

Karga showed IG the vent they tried to escape through earlier. "This is our only way out. Can you clear it?"

The IG set the Child down and began to take off the grate with a find laser.

Elaine and Cara stayed near Mando, the latter trying her best to tend to his wound, but she pulled away when her hands were soaked with blood.  "I'm not gonna make it," Mando grunted. "Go, Elaine."

Elaine felt tears in her eyes. "No! I'm not leaving!"

Cara looked at Mando, she also was fighting tears. "Shut up. You just got your bell ring. You'll be fine."

"Leave me," Mando ordered.

Cara shook her head and reached for his helmet. "I'm gonna need to take this thing off."

Mando pushed her away. "No. You leave me–" A sharp gasp escaped him. "–You make sure the kids are safe. Here," he pulled off a pendant and gave it to her. "When you get to the Mandalorian covert, you show them that. You tell them it's from Din Djarin," his voice shook. "You tell them the foundlings were in my protection, and they'll help you."

Elaine started to sob as the IG finished clearing the grate. Karga told them it was time to leave, but Elaine didn't move. "I don't wanna leave you," she said between sobs. Her head fell softly onto his chest plate, and suddenly, Mando felt a rush of pain. But it wasn't physical, it was grief. He felt what Elaine was feeling, and was reminded of his parents death. Nothing compared to that, and now that's what Elaine felt. 

Mando realized he was losing a lot of blood, because the swirls on Elaine's horns seemed to glow faintly. He lifted her head of his chest. "Elaine," she looked at him tearfully, and Mando reached up to cup her cheek. "I'm not gonna make it and you know it," It was harsh, but it was true. "Keep the Child safe. I can hold them back long enough for you to escape. Let me have a warrior's death."

Mando knew she understood, despite her age. "I won't leave you," she whimpered

Mando wiped away her tears with his thumb, even though it was pointless. "This is the Way, Sarad'ika."

Suddenly, a flame trooper burst through the door, and fired. As the flames engulfed the room, the Child lifted his hand and held them back. He pushed the fire to the trooper, killing him in the process.

"Come on!" Karga said. "It's open, let's go!"

"Go. Go," Mando said weakly.

Cara placed her hand on Elaine's shoulder, both of them reluctant to leave. IG handed Cara the Child. "Escape and protect the children. I will stay with the Mandalorian."

The veteran slung the bag over her shoulder and placed the Child inside. She picked up Elaine, who was still crying, and turned to the IG. "Promise me you'll bring him," she couldn't lose another friend, and she couldn't bear to see Elaine lose him.

"You have my word," The droid told her. Cara nodded, glancing at Mando one last time before following Karga into the sewer.

~~~~~

Cara and Karga had no idea where to go, and neither did Elaine, but she just held on the Cara tightly. Just when they thought they were completely lost, they heard footsteps behind them. Elaine lifted her head from Cara's shoulder and saw Mando and IG, the former leaning on the droid.

Cara set the girl down and gave the Child to IG so she could help Mando. Elaine tried to do the same but she was too small, so it ended up with her holding on to Mando's hand.

"Do you know which way to go?" Karga asked.

Mando shook his head. "No. I don't know these tunnels. I've only entered from the bazaar," they started to move, but Mando grunted in pain, so they were forced to slow down.

"Well, if we get the smell of sulfur and we follow it, it'll lead us up to the plains where the river flows," Karga said as they walked.

"And the Imps will catch us before we make it to the ship," Mando said. "We need the Mandalorians to escort us to saftey."

Cara groaned as they turned a corner. "Ugh, this place is maze."

Mando halted. "Stop. I can stand," he pulled away from Cara as Elaine smiled.

"The bacta infusion is working," IG said.

Mando tapped his helmet. "I'll try to find tracks," he led the way, his helmet aimed to the floor. "We're close. Turn here," they followed him until they came to an open area, the floor littered with Mandalorian helmets.

Mando stared at them in shock, getting down to his knees as picking one up. Elaine swallowed hard and leaned closer to him. Cara rested her hand on Mando's shoulder. "We should go."

"You go," Mando said as he stood up. "Take the ship. I can't leave it this way," he reeled on Karga. "Did you know about this? Is this the work of your bounty hunters?" He pointed an accusational finger at him, but the older man shook his head.

"No. When you left the system and took the prizes, the fighting ended and the hunters just melted away. You know how it is. They're mercenaries. They're not zealots."

"Did you do this?!" Mando didn't care. "Did you?!"

"No!"

A woman's voice broke their argument. "It was not his fault," the Armorer came through on of the entrances with a cart. She began to collect the helmets. "We revealed ourselves. We knew what would happen if we left the covert. The Imperials arrived shortly thereafter. This is what resulted."

"Did any survive?" Mando asked.

The Armorer examined a helmet. "I hope so. Some may have escaped off-world."

"Come with us."

"No," she said bluntly. "I will not abandon this place until I have salvaged what remains," she walked into her forge, the rag-tag team following her.  She began to melt the various pieces of armor, a process that was familiar to Mando, but not the rest.

"Show me the ones whose saftey deemed such destruction," ahe ordered.

IG stepped forward with the Child strapped to his chest, and Mando placed his hand on Elaine's back, gently pushing her forward. The girl tried her best not to look scared, but that was hard to do when she had been crying not too long ago.

"These are the ones," Mando said as the Armorer approached them. She took a great interest in them, and Elaine sunk back to Mando under her helmeted gaze.

"These are the ones that you hunted, then saved?" She asked.

Mando nodded. "Yes. The ones that saved me as well," he looked toward the Child.

The Armorer followed his gaze. "From the Mudhorn?"

"Yes."

"It looks helpless," the Child cooed sadly at her words.

"It's injured, but it is not helpless," Mando assured her. "It's species can move objects with it's mind," he turned to Elaine. She was half hidden as she held onto his side, his hand still on her back. "And she...the Moff said she was from Ovain."

The Armorer moved back to her forge. "I know of such things. The songs of eons past tell of battles between Mandalore the Great, and an order of sorcerers called Jedi that fought with such powers."

Mando looked at the Child. "It is an enemy?"

"No. It's kind were enemies, but this individual is not" she turned to look at Elaine. "Little is known about the people of Ovain, but they had close relations with the Jedi."

"What am I?" Elaine whispered. She wanted to know her people, but they were gone.

"You are a foundling," the Armorer said to her. She turned to Mando. "By Creed, they are in your care."

Mando looked between the kids and settled on the Child. "You wish me to train this thing?" Elaine had a chance, but how could he train the Child without even knowing what it was?

"It is too weak," the matriarch told him. "It would die. You have no choice. You must reunite it with it's own kind, and for her," she looked to Elaine. "Find another from Ovain."

"Where?" Mando asked.

"This, you must determine."

The people of Ovain knew the Jedi, and the Child had the powers of one. "You expect me to search the galaxy for the home of their home and deliver them to a race of enemy sorcerers."

"This is the Way."

Cara stepped forward. "Hey. These tunnels will be lousy with Imps in a matter of minutes. We should at least discuss an escape plan."

The Armorer turned to them with a thin hammer in her hand. "If you follow the descending tunnel, it will lead you to the underground river. It flows downstream toward the lava flats."

"I think we should go," Karga said, he was getting antsy.

"I'm staying," Mando said. "I need to help her and I need to heal."

Elaine looked up at him. "No!" She buried her face into his side, refusing to leave his side again.

"You must go," the Armorer said to him. "Foundlings are in your care. By Creed, until they are of age or reunited with their own kinds, you are as their father."

Mando looked between the children. Father? But when he realized he was still holding onto Elaine, he knew the Armorer was right. 

The matriarch approached them. "This is the Way. You have earned your Signet," she pushed Elaine away gently so she could add the symbol to Mando's armor. A Mudhorn. "You are a clan of three."

Mando looked at her. "Thank you. I will wear this with honor."

Suddenly, muffled explosions echoed through the sewers. "We should go," he said.

"IG," The Armorer said. "Please guard the outer hallway."

The droid handed the Child to Cara, who said, "Hang on. I don't do the baby thing."

The matriarch approached Mando with a beskar jetpack. "I have one more gift for your journey. Have you trained in the Rising Phoenix?"

Mando nodded. "When I was a boy. Yes."

"Then this will make you complete."

Mando took it. "Thank you."

The Armorer instructed him to use it after he fully healed. Blaster fire echoed down the hall and they knew it was time to go. IG carried the jetpack for Mando, and Elaine held the Child as they made their way to the river.

~~~~~

When they reached the river, they tried to move the ferry, but it was stuck. Cara used her blaster to free it and they boarded. Shortly after they began to move, the little droid began to move the raft along.

It wasn't long before they saw a literal light at the end of the tunnel, signaling their escape. Greef Karga smiled. "That's it. We're free!"

Mando turned on his thermal vision. "No. No, we're not. Stormtroopers. They're flanking the mouth of the tunnel. It looks like an entire platoon. They must know we're coming."

They tried to stop the boat, even blasting the little droid, but the flow of the river continued to carry them to their doom. Elaine hugged the Child closer to her, fear overcoming her. As Cara and Mando debated on what to do, IG spoke up.

"They will not be satisfied with anything less than the children. This is unacceptable. I will eliminate the enemy and you will escape."

Misunderstanding, Mando shook his head. "You don't have that kind of firepower, pal."

"That is not my objective."

Cara shifted nervously. "We're getting close. Saddle up."

"I still have the security protocols from my manufacturer.  If my designs are compromised, I mist self-destruct."

Mando stared at him. "What are you talking about?"

"I am not permitted to be captured," the droid explained. "I must be destroyed," je handed Mando the jetpack. "I can no longer carry this for you. Nor can I watch over the children."

"Wait. You can't self-destruct," Mando argued. "You're base command is to watch the kids. That supersedes your manufacturer's protocol, right?"

"This is correct."

"Good. Now, grab a blaster and help us shoot our way out."

Victory through combat is impossible," IG said. "We will be captured. The children will be lost. Sadly, there is no scenario where the children are saved, in which I survive."

Mando tried to argue, but the IG made him promise the kids would be safe. "There is nothing to be sad about," the droid said. "I have never been alive."

"I'm not sad," lied Mando.

"Yes, you are. I'm a nurse droid. I've analyzed your voice," IG stroked the Child's ear gently and gave Elaine a small pat on the head before stepping into the lava river. He walked to the entrance, and all they saw from the inside was an explosion.

Elaine looked up at Mando, and even though she couldn't see his face, she knew he was upset.

~~~

When they reached the lava flats, the team exited the boat. They were home free! Or at least they were until a TIE fighter swooped over them and fired.

"Moff Gideon!" Cara warned as she began to return fire. "He missed."

"He won't next time," Mando said.

"Our blasters are useless against him," Karga turned to the Child in Elaine's arms. "Let's make the baby do the magic hand thing. Come on, baby! Do the magic hand thing," When the Child didn't repsond, he turned back to the adults. "I'm out of ideas."

Mando took his jetpack and put it on. "I'm not," he lifted off, leaving Cara, Karga, Elaine and the Child all dumbfounded. They watched in anticipation as Mando flew to the TIE fighter, and awaited eagerly when they saw it go down in flames.

Mando landed in front of them, albeit a little roughly. Karga smiled as they approached him. "That was impressive, Mando. Very impressive. It looks like your Guild rates have just gone up."

"Any more stormtroopers?" Mando asked.

Elaine grinned. "I think they're gone."

Cara smiled at her joy. "I'm thinking of staying around just to be sure."

"You're staying here?" Mando asked.

Karga shrugged. "Well, why not? Nevarro is a very fine planet. And now that the scum and villainy have been washed away, it's very respectable again."

Mando titled his head. "As a bounty hunter hive?"

Karga looked at him like he was ridiculous. "Some of my favorite people are bounty hunters. And perhaps this specimen of a soldier would consider joining our ranks."

Cara shook her head. "Yeah, I've got some clerical concerns regarding my chain code."

Karga waved her off. "And if you would agree to become my enforcer, clerical concerns would be the least of your worries," he turned back to Mando. "But you, my friend, you will be welcome back into the Guild with open arms. So, go off, enjoy yourself. And when you're ready to return, you will have the pick of all quarries."

The Child gurgled, turing Mando's attention back to the kids. "I'm afraid I have more pressing matters at hand," he took the Child from Elaine and ruffled her hair.

"Take care of these little ones," Karga said with a smile. "Or maybe, they'll take care of you."

Mando looked down at them. "Ready?"

"In a second," Elaine ran to Cara and gave her a hug. The veteran was taken aback by her actions, but she patted the girl's back and smiled nonetheless.

"Be good," she said. "Or I'll have to take up Karga's offer and hunt you down."

Elaine giggled at Cara's words before heading back to Mando. He set the Child in her arms and picked her up, holding her tightly to him, and blasted off.

~~~

Mando placed the last rock on Kuiil's grave, standing there in a moment of silence and respect. Elaine waited with the Child, and Mando walked with them to the ship. 

When they left the planet and Mando put the ship into hyperspace, he turned back to his kids. The Child had something in his mouth, causing Mando to lean forward. "What do you got there?" He saw it was the Mythosaur pendant he had given to Cara. "I didn't think I'd see this again. Why don't you hang onto it?"

He turned to Elaine who sat next to him in the copilot's seat, stareing at the swirling blue. He tapped her knee gently. She looked at him, her big brown eyes slightly red. Mando remembered how scared she was, and wanted to somehow amend that.

"Elaine," he said. "I'm sorry for scaring you."

She pursed her lips, a little tic she had when the was thinking. Her eyes started to well up again at the memory, and Mando pulled her into a hug. Elaine leaned her head on his shoulder and her shoulders shook silently. Mando rubbed her arm gently. "It's okay now, Sarad'ika. You're safe."

Elaine sniffed and looked up at him. "What does that mean?"

"What?"

"Sar–er, um, sirdiko?" She guessed.

Mando smiled under his helmet. He had almost forgotten that Elaine would stumble over her words. "Sarad'ika," he repeated. "It means 'Little Flower'."

Elaine wiped her cheek and smiled, and even though she couldn't see it, she knew that Mando was smiling too.​​​​​​​

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[dearmyloveleys]

Times Ep 33 made me go (??) + some yaps about Ying Lei, Siheng, and Baijiu's.. if you've watched the last few episodes, you know what I'm referring to

apologies if this is on the neg/critical side but I'm rewatching it and there are things I picked up after emotions have subsided from the first time I watched it

spoilers!

Siheng died from... a torn arm? He literally got stabbed in the chest in Ep30 by Li Lun and disappeared into sparkles. I thought he was going to die in that Ep30 scene ngl

Since we're on Ep30, I get that Li Lun doesn't want to fatally harm Ying Lei. All his attacks are at Ying Lei's non-vital points, which checks out. And yet... Ying Lei... dies? The more I think about it the more I think that the writers don't want to villainize Li Lun completely, to justify his return and redemption in Ep 32/33. If Li Lun actually sent a clear, fatal blow, to Ying Lei, Ying Lei's death would have been more justified but at the cost of completely villainising Li Lun. The writers don't want that. So they go the non-fatal blow route and have Ying Lei die... from idk what, a stab through the shoulder and a few whips. Ying Lei dying for Baijiu checks out for his story arc, but the manner of his death could be done better. Then again, I'm thinking, the only other antagonist to mercilessly kill Ying Lei is WZY, but they need to save him for the boss battle. So it only leaves Li Lun to inflict the 'killing' blow beforehand. This said, I still cried a shit ton at his death scene.)

Back to Ep 33, the barrier at the mountain god temple: So ZYC can enter but not exit? If the barrier was truly made to protect WZY and has been erected since a while back, nobody should be able to cross it in the first place as a double assurance (no entrance, no exit)

And in Baijiu's flashback: It's telling us that the barrier has been set up since the time he was still hanging around in Chongwu Camp. Iirc didn't that second in command literally stand in that altar room in the first few episodes with WZY, and this is set I think after Baijiu has left Chongwu Camp?

Lol WZY waited an eternity for yuanyi to complete their soulmate conversation, with ZYC in his killing grasp. I know you're waiting for the reincarnation to complete the power up, but... you can still take the mortal route of snapping his neck right. He doesn't need ZYC as hostage. The classic scene of villain watches heroes deliberate whether to take action.

My issue isn't that the deaths of Ying Lei and Siheng weren't unjustified. In fact, I believe Ying Lei's death, though not needed per se, was earned in battle. He was always going to protect and bring back Bai Jiu no matter the cost. Siheng was always fated to die. He's already dead, he needs to be dead for Sijing to fully come back to reality. It's just the manner in which they have written their deaths doesn't quite hit the mark. It's only the sheer talent of the actors that pulled the punches.

And of course we can't skip Baijiu's death. Now this. This. *looks at the camera like I'm in the office, though my eyes are red and snot is running down my face* This sounds really weird in text, but I think it's perfect. Perfect in pacing, perfect in its place in the story, perfect in emotional damage. There are some who think it's stupid for him to die because Ying Lei died for him and so many people have sacrificed parts of themselves to bring him back, but the others don't hold a candle next to how much ZYC means to him. He isn't going to simply let ZYC die on the other side. And he finally finds the courage he always wants to have, while protecting ZYC. HE HOLDS THE FUCKING BELLS WHILE- I will stop crying :) Though I am upset he completes his arc in death, it is not farfetched.

Ep 33 (and Ying Lei's death) has its heart in the right place but once again, shows that FoF has its strength in writing about the heart but not really the body of the story. It was actually going decently, and I never had the urge to point out the '??' times since Ep 17. A pity this happens in the second last episode. But I must say Ep 34 is written decently. Will see again tomorrow.

[antianakin]

MY STANCES ON CONTROVERSIAL CHARACTERS ARE AS FOLLOWS

Anakin Skywalker: This one's fairly obvious, but I'm one of the people who doesn't see Anakin as redeemed by the end of ROTJ just because he saved one person he personally gives a damn about. My definition of redemption is about atoning and making amends, and Anakin has no possible way of actually DOING THAT for most of the things he's done, so there's no real way of acquiring redemption. He can be a better person, he can be forgiven by individual people for things he's done to them, he can keep choosing to be selfless instead of selfish, but none of that necessarily means he has to be considered redeemed. If you think he's redeemed at the end of ROTJ and that's what brings you joy in your interpretation of the story, great, I honestly don't care. But if you choose to come into my notes and get mad at me because I don't think the space fascist is redeemed just because he decides to save his own son, you will now be blocked on sight, I'm done having that conversation with people.

The Jedi As A Whole: Wonderful people with a beautiful culture that never did a single thing to deserve what was done to them. They were not corrupt, they didn't need to reform their culture in a single way. There was nothing more they could've done for Anakin or the Republic that would've stopped what happened. They don't steal children, they adopt them from parents who choose to let their children lead a better life, and become part of the large extended Jedi family. They are intergalactic therapists whose literal way of life IS therapy for those who choose to follow it. They were outplayed, but they did everything they could've possibly done. Sometimes, it is possible to commit no mistakes, and still lose. That is not a weakness. That is life. (Side note here: This is an incredibly pro Jedi blog, if you come on my blog and criticize the Jedi in any way, you will be immediately blocked, I am so done with this fandom's anti-Jedi sentiments, consider this your warning.)

Padme Amidala: Deserved better from the Prequels, has such potential and promise and I want so dearly to save her from her toxic ass marriage to a fascist MAGA manchild, but damn am I glad Luke and Leia didn't have to grow up with her as a mother some days.

Bo-Katan Kryze: I wish I could like her, but the writers are making it SO HARD. They don't seem to ever remember that she gleefully set an entire village on fire because they dared ask for their enslaved people back and to not be occupied anymore, but I do.

Satine Kryze: I wish I could like her, but I don't have enough nostalgia for her to overlook how bad the writing is for her. She treats Obi-Wan like garbage, brings out the worst in him, acts very arrogantly about just about everything and never has to take responsibility for her own mistakes so she gets to die a martyr.

Aleksander Kallus: Literally has to have his ENTIRE BACKSTORY retconned so he can be "redeemed" within the span of one episode. Also manages to "All Lives Matter" Zeb into thinking that judging Imperials for their fascist choices is the same as judging an ENTIRE SPECIES on the actions of one individual who was acting in self-defense anyway. Stop saying he's got the best redemption arc in Star Wars, it sucks fucking ass and he's not a fucking Fulcrum, he just stole the title from Ahsoka and didn't earn it and he was a shit spy anyway.

Crosshair: Bigoted dickhead who treats everyone like complete crap and then goes full fascist as a punishment for the world when no one wants to risk their lives to save him. His redemption arc was completely half-assed and he should've had to do a LOT more to gain people's forgiveness and absolutely no one should've been forced to apologize to HIM.

Bode Akuna: Basically just Anakin lite and we all know how I feel about Anakin. No sob story justifies anything he's done and I didn't find him all that interesting or sympathetic, personally.

Rafa and Trace Martez: I actually loved them, I thought they had an interesting relationship with each other and with Ahsoka, I appreciated how different they felt and the arc Ahsoka goes on with them. I don't mind that they used them to showcase the rising anti-Jedi sentiment among the citizens of Coruscant, I just wish their opinions hadn't been presented as though they were right. I love that we see they've joined a rebellion of sorts post-Order 66 and I wish we'd gotten to see more of Trace, Rafa, and Rex working together rather than the absolute trashfire that we're actually getting on TBB.

Ahsoka Tano: Relationship status: It's complicated. I DO like her, generally, but I REALLY dislike the way she's constantly written in later stuff to be better than everyone else and to have basically zero flaws so that she can end up like a messiah or a goddess of light reborn or something. It's boring, it's annoying, and it just isn't any good. I particularly don't care for how she consistently gets utilized to bash the Jedi Order and absolve Anakin for all of his sins. Ahsoka deserves better, but I'm also immensely frustrated with where her story's taken her and the way fandom tends to treat her. We also just straight-up need more main female Jedi characters and as long as Ahsoka's around it feels like it'll never happen. She's completely irrelevant to the story overall and I'm annoyed at how much Felony is trying to make her more significant than she is instead of just letting her stand on her own for once.

Sabine Wren: I love the Rebels version of her, but the Ahsoka show version sucks. I have decided it simply does not exist for Sabine. That isn't the real Sabine and it never will be. That's not Sabine's story, the real Sabine would never try to be a Jedi because quite simply she doesn't NEED to be. And the real Sabine would NEVER disrespect Ezra's sacrifice by undoing it and then leaving him to deal with the fallout. It's stupid, it's ugly, and Sabine deserved better.

Hera Syndulla: Much like Sabine, I love the Rebels version of her, but the Ahsoka version sucks. The Ahsoka version deserves to be kicked out of the army or whatever, she's a terrible mother and an even worse General and quite honestly not that great of a friend. The real Hera would NEVER act like orders didn't matter just because she doesn't like them or refuse to see the logic in letting go of Ezra after he's been missing for 10 years so that those resources can go to people who they can confirm are still alive.

Shin Hati: She's so so so boring. She has the personality of cardboard, it basically consists of "crazy eyes" and that's about it. She is pretty literally just Darth Maul but a girl. Like every single part of her character so far is indistinguishable from Maul aside from the cosmetic stuff. I hope she dies in season 2 and never gets a redemption arc. I'd say Sabine deserves better, but honestly Ahsoka!Sabine deserves her.

Grey Jedi: Stop trying to make fetch happen. It's not going to happen. Let Grey Jedi stay in fanon where it belongs, none of your faves are Grey Jedi in canon and they never will be.

The Acolyte Jedi: Fuck 'em all, I guess. Especially Sol, that fandom/Filoni Qui-Gon Jinn knock-off. The real Qui-Gon Jinn would wipe the fucking floor with Sol.

[eternal-sacrifice]

Been thinking about winners.... Then I thought too hard... Here's my thoughts on.. all of them,,,,

• IF bdubs won next season: he has earned it. It would be great seeing as last season was a 3rd life throwback and sort of a redemption, if the next season was his most difficult we could go full heros journey with this bitch and the win would be incredibly satisfying.

9/10 didn't realize I wanted him to win but, I'm rooting for him now! Convinced me

• If bigB won next season: please let him win. I need him to win. He hasn't gotten a single ounce of attention from the fandom in any of his 4 amazing story arcs, and maybe just maybe they would care about him if he won. With new members joining he could have a fresh start (again), maybe with a win he could pull ahead all on his own, just like he started 2 years ago.

1000/10 I NEEED IT

• if Cleo won next season: hggfhhfjg. Hfhfhgfgg... Divorce quartet real... The animations... The fanart..... It would be so cool. I don't think Cleos character has much motivation to win atm, but if she was forced into a position where she needed to take the win it could be a very refreshing twist on the story.

7/10 we love to see a king winning

• if etho won next season: hey sorry ethogirls I don't know him well enough- all I know is that the fans would become crazy and I'd become an ethogirl. Thank you for coming to my Ted talk

• if gem won next season: okay, gem win would be awesome, yeah. Doesn't matter if everyone loves her, doesn't matter if everyone hates her, I just need her to be the main character, be confused, be crazy, die. It would hurt her character so deeply and would be genuinely amazing for her lore.

8/10 this would be sick

• if grian won next season: let's try that again baby! He might have won the first time with kindness, trust, loyalty and true friendship- but it can't be like that anymore can it. Everyone's left him, everyone's moved on, his life is falling apart, and for once he's barely stopping it. He's just trying to understand what's going on. He ends up in a similar situation to s1, and can't take it- he snaps, kills the other players, and wins once more, making everyone go crazy and the fandom die from shock immediately.

4/10 hmmmm

• if impulse won next season: HES BEEN SOOOOOO CLOSE FOR THE PAST 4 SEASONS. GIVE IT TO HIM PLEASE. only if he weasels his way in though, I love it when he's a lying little cheat and a freaky lil traitor. He needs everyone in his life to leave him or trust him completely and I will die on that hill.

7/10 hehehehe impman

• if Jimmy won next season: ughhhhhhh. Okay. So. Canary boy. He has never experienced pain before in his entire life. For those reasons 1. I'd love for him to win so he can finally understand the series he's in 2. I'd hate for him to win because nooo he broke the curse :((

Canary/10

• if Joel won next season: SBDBDJSKXBJDBXKSDBJDHSHAHDH THAT WOULD BE SO GOOOOOOOD WAIT WAIT WAIT I HADN'T EVEN CONSIDERED- so he's been alone the past 4 seasons, yeah. Even during double life with his loving husband, he knew he would end up alone again in the end, so it was all for nothing in his eyes. He gave his full trust and loyalty to his boys, something he's not used to, and if next season he's alone again- he can't take it. He goes about it smarter then last life, though- he keeps to himself, makes himself stronger the whole season, builds companionship with people (they're not used to him being so friendly), and wins with a last minute betrayal or simply being the last man standing. He would barely expect it, but it would heal his character so much, and also break him.

9/10 WOOOOOO!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!you better do this right asshole. Just kidding however he wins will be perfect

• if Lizzie won next season: similar to gem, but with more spite, and more guarenteed loneliness. It would be- really hard for her to take another season. All of her allyships would be strained, and I can totally see her joining or even commanding another big group, but she'd be alone in reality. A win for her would be cruel.

5/10 queen please

• if martyn won next season: illegal

• If mumbo won next season: I'd go crazy. Mumbos got so many satisfying ways to take his character, and the FANART and god lhbevfuebejrkje. Hes only been there once. He never learned how to play the game. If he won this time- hendndjdjbthekdndkelkebek 500/10 I need it

• if pearl won next season: as much as I would love for her to win again, 1. Too soon, she hasn't recovered from the first one please 2. The fandom would hate her for it 3. She already got what she needed from her first win. It'd be unnecessary for her character arc. It's very unlikely anyways, I'm sure if she got in that situation again, which might happen, she'd give it to whoever else is there.

3/10 I'm sorry goddess

• if Ren won next season: PLEASEEEEEE BE KIND TO HIMMMMMM honestly I think they would just give him the win. He's gonna get in a nice group, they're gonna have loyalty to him and he's gonna have loyalty to them, and wherever it goes he's gonna end up in the endgame again. Everyone there will understand that he deserves that win. If they don't martyn will kill em all into understanding lol. Maybe we could get a desert duo "you can kill me" moment but martyn refuses and kills himself. That would be so cool of him actually

7/10 my doggo deserves love but not like this

• if scar won next season: :3c

He need to okay. He needs to. I don't care how it happens I don't care when it happens I just need him to murder grian and get the win. I need him to understand that HE DESERVES TO WIN. he's gone through so much and he still doesn't understand his self worth, but if he kills that stupid bitch and calls upon old allies to help him get to the end- it could be so lovely oh my god

10/10 my brother in Christ

• if Scott won next season: this would kill him he would leave

0/0 I'm scared

• if skizz won next season: okay his story thus far wasn't amazing, oh wait it was. ACTUALLY HIS LIMITED LIFE WAS THE ONLY GOOD LIMITED STORY(completely untrue but listen IT WAS FULL, THERE WAS A WHOLE CHARACTER ARC even if it was good person to better person, HE IS SO TALENTED AND CHARISMATIC IF HE TEAMED UP WITH THE RIGHT PEOPLE NEXT SEASON I COULD TOTALLY SEE IT BEING AMAZING. HE DESERVES IT. AND HIS WIN WOULD BE AWESOME.

9/10 he's pretty give me a break

• if tango wins next season: okay while all of his seasons other then last life have been boring it could be fun. I mean okay, double life wasn't boring. And I can't say anything about 3rd life. Sure, jeez, he can win. Just need him to get mad and kill some guys first ^_^

5/10 go for it guy

Sorry I advance to everyone I angered deeply with this post, I don't know all the characters perfectly. I can't wait to see this age like fine wine with the next season, honestly whoever wins I'll be crazy about no matter what. I'd love to hear anyone else's thoughts on this!

[yannig]

I need someone to theorize with me about the Pit Babe 2 trailer

Ok so I thought a lot about Tony and Way being back. And I think we've got 3 options, ranked in how likely I think they are to actually happen.

They are actually alive (faked their death, resurrected, or maybe even clones/evil twins).

They are ghosts/spirits/whatever. They are there but still dead.

They are not here at all. All of their apparitions are due to nightmares, hallucinations, paranoia, flashbacks, etc.

I am entirely uninterested in them being actually alive, one way or another. I think this is largely the most underwhelming option out of the 3, and yet also the one we're most likely to get. For me, Tony and Way being back from the dead would just negate most of the impact of the first season.

Oh Way sacrificed himself to save Charlie as an attempt to redemption? Yeah no he's still alive actually. Tony was finally put done by the son he always treated like a dog, and who at last managed to escape his hold? Nope, he survived.

Talk about a way to undo major character moments. (I hated Way's death, but it was still an important character moment. and Kenta turning on Tony was great.)

(for Way as his own character, it could actually be interesting. Like "yeah no, you don't get to just die and be done with the guilt. you actually have to work for redemption". but 1) I don't think it's where they're going; and 2) I'm not convinced it would stem interesting development for anyone else.)

The ghost option could be fun, I guess. I don't really have an opinion either way tbh, depends where they go with it. Ghost possession could be a fun threat.

I know what my favorite option is, and it's definitely n°3, which sadly I don't think we will get. Mind you, Babe would be perfectly justified to have nightmares or flashbacks about these 2, considering how much trauma they gave him. Also Way giving Babe trauma flashbacks might help me forgive what they did to his character. But well. The show hasn't seemed very interested in talking about trauma before so...

Basically, I think the most interesting option is for the show to toy with its characters' (and its viewers') paranoia, by leaving all 3 options open for as long as possible. Done well, it could make for a very good thriller.

Are they actually back or is Babe just hallucinating in broad daylight? Are they actually vengeful ghosts that need warding against or is Babe just having very justified nightmares? Is there a threat at all or are they all just paranoiac after everything that happened? Is it really paranoia if they're really after you? They all thought Charlie was dead, didn't they? Does anyone ever stay dead?

I'd argue that if that thriller part is done well, all 3 options could work as compelling endings. I also don't think (from the writing in season 1) that they could pull it off effectively.

Or even that they would try. Season 1 wasn't a thriller in the first place, and the S2 trailer isn't giving thriller either. My problem being: I'm not really interested by their return if it doesn't turn thriller.

Basically, what I'm interested in is what impact their return would have on the other characters, after thinking they were finally safe. Especially Kenta and Babe. Kenta who finally escaped, finally managed to turn on Tony, to get free from him. Babe who is finally safe after spending the last 10 years looking over his shoulder, after so many betrayals, after loosing his best friend in all possible ways, after thinking his boyfriend was dead. Imagine how terrifying the prospect of Tony's return would be.

But beyond that? I have no interest in what they would do as independent characters. Tony has plans? What does it change from S1? Way is being an idiot, either working for the villain or clumsily trying to earn his redemption? I don't care. That is the exact same thing they were doing in S1.

Basically, I'm afraid that by bringing them back, the show is just being lazy and re-creating the S1 status-quo instead of imagining new stakes. And I am entirely uninterested in sequels that just undo the original story's ending. Which is exactly what I'm afraid they'll do.

TLDR: the psychological impact of the potentiality of Tony and Way being back is much more interesting than them actually being back.

Sure, give me confirmed omega characters (Jeff and Kenta at least), give me AlanJeff and BabeCharlie being cute together, give me Sonic and North finally getting somewhere and maybe involving Kim (or aro/ace/aspec Kim, that would also work, but only if explicitly stated in the show), give me heats and mpreg and stop being cowards. I'll watch it for the relationships between the main cast if nothing else.

But I'm worried about what the big conflict is going to be.

[petitprincess1]

How the duck was Sir Pentious's redemption rushed? He's been shown throughout the show to be a genuinely kind and caring person when push comes to shove. And he was super eager to join Charlie's program when she gave him a second chance. Plus he gave the ultimate sacrifice for his friends without knowing that he would end up in Heaven so yeah. Sir Pentious 100% earned his redemption. Good for you Sir Pentious

I think people say it's rushed bc the way the writing focused more on Angel Dust than anyone else. But I think that's fantastic, to be 100% honest.

Vivzie purposely wrote it where we were sure that Angel was the first to be redeemed. It was to a point where we completely ignored Pentious, especially since it seemed like he was more of a jokey villain. We completely ignore the fact that he was truly remorseful of his actions and that he genuinely wanted to change. Not only that, but he was constantly showing that he had a heart. Like having a concern for Charlie's relationships and saving Niffty from being harmed.

These were such small moments that we didn't think to care. And then the very end, he sacrificed himself, knowing that he was going to die. Even if his death ray shot Adam, it most likely wasn't going to kill him. Either way, Pen knew that this was the end for him.

He got redeemed bc he wanted to protect those he cared about. He was "Out For Love". And not to say the others weren't. It's just that they have a lot more going on, including not owning their souls, that would require more than just a "sacrifice" for them to be redeemed.

[powerpuffobsession]

All this Charlie and Lucifer conflict feels so fake and thrown in for drama points. Because it's hard for me to sympathize when watching two characters who barely have any hardship in their lives, imitate having to go through hardship. That's why I kinda rolled my eyes at "More than anything" part of the episode. No tears whatsoever

The whole daddy issues problem doesn't even make sense from a realistical stand point. You both are non aging, powerful (although Charlie refuses to use her powers, but they are clearly there) beings who barely have any problems in your lives. You were even spared from the exterminations, even though Heavens could have easily disposed of a fallen angel and his off spring a long time ago! (and Charlie just had to abuse that generosity) Everything is just dandy, lots of viewers of Hazbin hotel would kill for a life like that. Sinners who get killed can f*ck themselves. They are criminals, after all

Lucifer, I understand being upset the first few years after your wife left. But seven years? Wouldn't that get old? When you are a powerful being who has an already grown up daughter who doesn't need to rely on you, unlimited resources and his own kingdom (that he got for screwing up humanity, mind you)? Overkill much. Just find yourself a new love or go fix your damn hell ring and maybe ensure that rapists actually go to the boiling pot instead of owning a glamorous business to thrive on

Charlie is less guilty than her father, as he did ignore her and failed to teach her basic skills of standing up to herself and ruling a place. If a rich guy fails his kids that way, he's trash, because like, dude you've got resources and time, just use them to do bare minimum for your child. So Charlie's problems with running the hotel make sense (even though if she truly was passionate about helping someone, she would have made an effort to plan it out more properly so that the redemption doesn't happen by accident in a damn war)

That way, Lucifer's complaints about his life make me want to just roll my eyes. Even back in heaven he had one job of not giving the humans the damn fruit, I sincerely doubt that he, as one of the seraphims had no idea of the consequences of that. If he didn't wreck up his siblings' work, he would have still be living in Heaven. And, as I mentioned earlier, he didn't even get punnished properly for the fruit incident - wings still intact, all his powers and the ability to just magic up any goods out of thin air or to defend himself against a freaking angelic exorcist, let alone sinful criminals, is still there. So what's the problem?

Generally, what stops both Lucifer and Charlie from communicating/meeting each other? They never had any sort of fight that would have made their relationship truly sour, and Lucifer is not a heartless calculating abusive father he was believed to be in the pilot era. Charlie is barely loaded with the hotel work, she basically just plays trust games with sinners, and that's all

They like, stay away from each other when they have no reson to and then whine about it. Duh, some irl families who are actually struggling with life and actually have little time and vital strength do communication better than a fking rich magical seraphim and his daughter

And yes i'm jealous of a cartoon fallen angel. In canon biblical lore, Lucifer is actually punished for his actions. But not this Lucifer. You say Adam is spoiled? And least with him there's a possibility that he had to survive on Earth and go through some serious crap before earning his place on Heaven. Lucifer meanwhile can shelter himself in his castle for 7 years wasting time making ducks and be just fine! I even dare say, he fakes his depression because he thinks it's cool or smth. Put the guy on a minimum wage job and other difficulties of a normal human life, and the pussy'll just die

[socksandbuttons]

I HEARD WE’RE TALKING ABOUT KC USED AS CHARACTER HERE CUZ BOI FO I HAVE LOT IN MY MIND ABOUT THAT (a bit of a rant so uh yeah)

I feel like such, and I mean SUCH a wasted opportunity and potential for KC as a character. Multiple times where I felt like it just so off about how he’s been handle and how it ended. You mean to tell me, this man right here has just gotten his redemption to being good, gone for a few months away from us to see how he’s doing only for us to see one last time before he got straight kill by his own Bloody Son? I mean yeah sure, Im driven for angst but the way they did it for his death just felt not earn, i dont know how to explain it. Im glad that KC at least acknowledge about Bloodmoon’s whole issue but to just die afterwards?? And that’s it?? Yeah ok, he’s a pacifist now and a good guy, but he’s still can defend himself. Maybe came out injured from the fight but still alive. But no…. He just die. Thats it

I cant help but feel like they have been just like, throwing KC’s character around. They either dont know what to do or have other plans for him, but just the way it’s been handle it just. I dont know I gotten a whole rant about this.

I remember when they said that Moon will give KC a proper body but apparently Moon never made that happen. Now, I wanna give the showrunner the benefit of a doubt and cut them some slack cuz Im sure they have other things to do beside the show to even remember that

Idk what else to say. I know for sure there are a lot more in my mind abt this but I cant type it all out atm so take it as you will

Oh yeah no I do feel they didn't know what to do with him other than have him come in once a while and felt the death necessary rather than use him more. (The two voice actors for Sun and Moon have like three channels.) I do feel they haven't been too consistent anyway with KC (the rush of a redemption, no seeming closure for somethings, etc. I could be missing something but yeah) They could've had him for the current astral plot (Given he has star knowledge and *harnessing its power*) PLUS Earth's situation about her feelings about the Creator (I'll keep bringing it up, but Deliberately MADE to be a killing machine is right in her face. I know she has Forgor but once again her whole Need to know and uncomfortable with being out of loop. Her entire encounter with KC would be such a haze to her it'd definitely bother her enough.) KC isn't the first example of not using a character to its full (Solar Flare and Even first Bloodmoon. Literally... literally was taught magic and thats never brought up again). It's also just how numbers work on the channel too. They take most review from youtube and discord from what I understand and from what I see there is a difference with majority and what we're saying most of the time. Lunar was brought back cause he was rather popular already (also he wasn't fully killed either in the same episode).