#fuck you marvel and dc comic fans

[deanwinchestersgirl8734]

No offense but Hugh Jackman is not hotter than the boys not even close just saying whoever voted are your eyes ok get some glasses and Jared being number 99 is offensive fuck you dilf and fuck you marvel and dc fans soldier boy would kick all your asses js @jackles010378 @michecolegate @lacilou @justjensenanddean @deans-queen @sam-winchester-admiration-league @zepskies @k-slla

[necrotic-nephilim]

@sasheneskywalker i love when you enable me to ramble about things because oh my god do i have thoughts.

so recently, i made a post discussing the phenomena of DC x DP and DC x MLB crossovers and why they exist and part of that post was discussing how largely speaking, at least half, if not more of the Batfamily fandom doesn't read the comics. if they interact with canon DC material, it's adaptations that are their own sequestered universes and oftentimes not remotely comic accurate or seeking to be. the most obvious example is the Young Justice cartoon. i'm adding a cut to this post because it just got so long i'm so sorry.

a lot of times, when people are discussing the "why" of this oversaturation of fanon-only fandom, they blame Wayne Family Adventures. and i think, to a point, i agree WFA is responsible for a boom in this fandom. but as someone who's been in the fandom long before we had WFA, to me it's the other way around. WFA was DC's way of meeting the demand for this easy-to-get-into, easy-to-consume content about the Batfamily that predicates itself on the comics just enough to be vaguely the same characters, but has a more sitcom, slice-of-life sort of vibe so DC could profit off of this section of the fanbase that otherwise wasn't consuming its primary material. and well, it's definitely worked. not only that, but i have a weird theory that the decline in the MCU also led to the rise in the Batfamily fandom. when you consider the fan content that made the MCU popular within fandom, it's that 2012 "they all live in Avengers Tower and Thor is eating poptarts and Clint is in the vents and there are movie nights every Friday" sort of vibe. those were the fics that were a hallmark of the fandom. and as the MCU has strayed from well... quality content in general, but specifically well-thought-out crossover content where characters can have their own arcs but also exist in a wider story where they clearly care about each other, that fandom was sort of homeless. so where do you go, if you like a superhero found family where you can have villains for angst but also stick them all in one big family-like home for silly crack and have a plethora of options for gay ships? well. you go to the Batfamily. if you write a crack/fluff Batfamily genfic with silly vibes and low stakes instead of say, a fic about a very specific comic issue even if it's a popular comic, you're *going* to get more traction for the former. because the fanbase largely just isn't reading the comics.

and i feel... complicated about this. because on one hand, Don't Like Don't Read has been a tenet of my fandom experience. i'm very pro-fandom and that includes fandom content i don't like. and to an extent, i do think this sort of should apply to Batfamily fanon. i enjoy having my moments with other comic purists, giggling over exceptionally painful OOC headcanons or even facepalming in pain over some content but it is on me to not interact with that content. you don't make fandom a better place by being hostile to fans who engage with canon in ways you don't approve of. and frankly? we as comic readers are not going to get non-comic fans to read the comics by being asshats to them. no one is going to want to pick up any comic if we get a superiority complex about it. and also, i feel like we're all lying to ourselves a little bit insisting comics are so, so easy to get into. they're not. we can just all agree, they're really not. i've been single-handedly helping my sister get into comics, specifically Wonder Woman and no matter how simple i make it, i watch her get frustrated trying to understand what pre-Crisis and post-Crisis and New-52 and Flashpoint and all these things mean and what a retcon vs a reboot is and what a Crisis Event is and what the hell Diana's current backstory even *is*. sure, you can give someone a beginner list of comics to start with and slowly dip their toes in the water but sooner or later, *something* is going to confuse them. comics as a medium straight up aren't going to be everyone's cup of tea. and if someone *just* wants to read silly fluffy fanfiction about the Batfamily, i can't entirely begrudge them for not wanting to take the hours and hours out of their day to understand this medium. it's not an accessible medium to get into. "read this and this, but this run is out of print and this run wasn't collected in trades at all but also make sure you read that event in order and this is a good comic but the backstory in it is retconned and you *have* to read this it's so important but it's also really bad because the author kind of sucks" sounds. ridiculous for someone who like. just wants to read some stuff about Nightwing. sometimes, we all make reading comics sort of sound like a chore, not a hobby.

so my point is, i do extend some grace to Batfamily fanon for existing. i think my biggest gripe is, as i said in my other post, misuse of tags (if you're not creating content about comics, maybe you don't need the comics fandom tag on Ao3, just the all media types umbrella tag) and my far bigger gripe: when panels are taken out of context to support fanon only headcanons. if i could impart *anything* onto the Batfamily fandom as a comic fan it'd be this: if you haven't *read* the comic, don't spread the panel. if you don't even know what comic it's *from*, don't spread the panel. it's fine to use comic panels to discuss your headcanons, but so often i see someone spreading a comic panel from a comic they haven't read, and when asked where it's from, they can't source it. a silly example that comes to mind is a post going around, taking a panel where Dick, in his internal monologue goes "here comes the sun. do do do do." and the post is claiming it's from him getting buried alive. when that panel comes from Nightwing (1996) #140, and he gets buried alive in Nightwing (1996) #127, two completely different moments frankensteined together. if you're going to not read the comics, that's completely fine, but unless you're sure of the source and the context, panels shouldn't be spread around. i'm sick of this specifically happening to Red Robin (2009), with ppl claiming Tim has totally killed people because he blew up some of Ra's' bases, when those panels within context, make it clear he gave everyone time to escape. and in a later arc in that very comic, Tim grapples with the idea of murdering Captain Boomerang, and *specifically chooses not to*, because he doesn't agree with murder, even against the person who has hurt him the most. if you'd like to write fanfiction where Tim is pro-murder and has done some sketch things, i'm totally on board and would probably like to read it. but there's no need to pretend it's canon from a few panels you saw out of context.

beyond that, i think it's not *entirely* correct to say that fanon is harmless. whenever i see very WFA-positive posts, they often default to the argument that WFA is fun and silly, and comic fans are killjoys for not liking it. which. i think is complicated because the issue is, WFA and fanon don't exist in a vacuum. if you like WFA power to you, i don't think it's the worst thing ever, but i do think it's degrading to these characters because honestly? they feel incompetent in the webtoon. it's one thing if WFA was solely a slice-of-life sort of deal, just having silly episodes where Bruce is taking on a PTA mom or they're all fighting for the last cookie. but when WFA attempts to take on more serious plots with these characters, it *fundamentally* falls flat in understanding them. i get it, Bruce comforting Jason having a panic attack because a noise reminded him of the crowbar felt cute in a microcosm, but i'm so serious when i say that storyline destroyed how like. half of this fandom understands Jason Todd's relationship to his trauma. it doesn't understand how he reacts when he's triggered, what coping mechanisms he seeks out, and how he would handle Bruce comforting him. even if i can believe for a brief moment Jason *would* be triggered by something like that, him running and trying to hide and then getting a hug from Bruce to make it okay is just. painful. WFA needs everything to be wrapped up in a nice, neat little bow. so even when it starts to tackle interesting concepts, it makes them fall flat with its need to be soft, low stakes, hurt/comfort. there was a two-parter episode that dealt with the complicated mutual hatred/jealousy between Tim and Damian that *almost* really interested me because for once, it felt like the webtoon wanted to explore canon messy dynamics. but of course, it had to be fixed with one conversation and a hug. you don't mend the *years* of issues these characters have like that. WFA isn't in character because these characters are hyperbole cartoonified versions of themselves to fit within the medium and be a cute happy family.

because that right there, is the crux of it. the Batfamily fanon seeks to simplify the Batfamily and force them into a nuclear family. there are so many fantastic posts on here discussing how the nuclear family-ification of the Batfam is eroding decades worth of complex histories so i won't go too far into that. but what i will say is that there's this need, in the Batfamily fandom, for the Batfamily to exist as a unit. they are a *family*. (honestly i think calling it the Batfamily is a misnomer and has been for years but we're in too deep now.) they exist to each other first, and any teams or friends they have come secondary to this family unit. you can *specifically* see this demonstrated in what headcanons are becoming popular these days. i have an entire lengthy meta in my drafts about how i *loathe* the "the Batfamily meets the Justice League" genre of fanfic because it makes no *sense*. in order to have this genre of fic exist, you must operate under the assumption that no one in the League, or adjacent to the League, knows the Batfamily exists and are thus utterly shocked to discover Batman has kids. and to make *that* work, you have to strip *every single Batfamily member* of such important dynamics and friendships so you can lock them all in Gotham for their whole lives. Dick can't have the Titans, Tim can't have Young Justice, Duke & Cass can't have the Outsiders, Jason can't have the Outlaws, Damian can't have the Supersons, Babs can't have the Birds of Prey, and so on. because if they had these relationships, they would be known to the League. the Batfamily fandom doesn't care about this, it's just "silly fanfiction", it's not trying to be serious. but how can you say you like Dick Grayson as a character if you don't understand the Titans *are* his family? at some points of his life, moreso than the Batfamily even is. it is constantly repeated to us in most comics with Dick how much the Titans mean to him. he *needs* them to be who he is. the same extends to every other Batfamily member, most of which have been full League members at this point. but in fanon, that doesn't matter. the Batfamily are a sequestered unit first, and all of those side relationships are secondary and easy to toss away, if it makes your fanfic work better.

and because they have to be a unit first, you have these forced relationships that dump years of actual canon material for the sake of making them get along. the Batfamily fandom has its favorites and well. it's no secret it's usually the boys. Jason and Tim by *far* stand out as fandom faves so, their dynamic is a heavily explored one. it does matter that in canon they don't tend to get along and especially don't see each other as family. what matters is that you can push dynamics onto them. and so fanon gets all twisted up about which Robin Tim actually idolized as a kid (Dick) and what member of the Batfamily is pro-murder but still an older sibling figure to him and looks out for him (Helena, or if you want the dynamic of once tried to harm Tim but they've reconciled, Jean-Paul) in favor of who's the most popular. Dick, Jason, Tim, and Damian are always going to be the standouts for popularity, but it's specifically Jason and Tim who are getting fanonized the most. and that's because really, we don't have much canon content of Tim that *isn't* the comics. for Dick you've got Young Justice (tv), for Damian you've got the DCAMU, for Jason you've sort of got the Under The Red Hood movie, but Tim sort of lingers in this limbo. (yes, he's in Young Justce (tv) and Titans (live action) but in neither is he the main character nor given much depth) so, he gets a *lot* projected onto him and has become fanonized. and even with Jason's animated movies, you don't see him interact with Tim, so people build it from the ground up how they want to see it, disregarding of canon comics. i think it's what makes him so popular in the first place- he's malleable into whatever you want or need him to be.

and of course, the fanon ignores other characters in the Batfamily it doesn't know about. i feel like you could create a tier list of Batfamily characters by their popularity, going from the fandom main characters: Tim, Jason, Bruce, Alfred, Dick, Damian. to the underrated: Steph, Duke, Babs, Cass. to the forgotten about unless they're convenient for a story: Kate, the Foxes, Helena Wayne, Carrie, Selina, Harper Row, Maps, Minhkhoa Khan. to the absolutely unknown: Helena Bertinelli, Jean-Paul Valley, Onyx Adams, the Clovers, Julia Pennyworth. it's not lost on me that the ignored characters tend to be women and people of color. which is both a canon and fanon problem, DC will continue adding interesting characters to the Batfamily, play with them for a few years, then drop them to default to the "Batboys" again. and it's a vicious cycle of the fandom only caring about the "Batboys", and thus people entering the fandom via fanon osmosis won't have content about the other characters, therefore, they won't be interested in those characters enough to create it, and it's just this ouroboros consuming itself, no matter how much canon content we have of these other characters. and it's ridiculous just how large the Batfamily is becoming because of this, which is why i'm a pre-Flashpoint fan, because then the Batfamily was contained enough to actually feel like a family with every character having nuances relationships with each other, but i digress because those thoughts could be their own post.

and the thing about fanon is it doesn't exist in a vacuum. DC has started turning the comics to accommodate for what fans are asking for, because fans will beg and beg for content they're not going to consume. Tim Drake: Robin had Tim as a coffee drinker because that's the fanon accepted headcanon. and the resolution of the recent Gotham War arc was for Bruce to buy this new manor for everyone to move in and call him. nevermind that most of these characters have their own homes and have zero reason to be moving in with Bruce. Tim had his marina in Tim Drake: Robin, Dick has Bludhaven, Cass and Steph have their little side of town in Batgirls (2022), and so on. these characters are being forced together as a unit, as one big happy family living together, to appease what non-comic fans want and it's damaging comic relationships. Robin: Knight Terrors saw Jason and Tim team up and working together, which i've seen varying opinions on but i personally despised. their interactions made zero sense for any of their canon history, but it appeases them being this close sibling relationship that fanon acts like they are. also the fears they faced in their respective knight terrors didn't make sense for either character and *only* worked as a moment of bringing them together so they could reassure each other and have this weird dreamscape bonding moment. the canon is bending itself to the will of fanon rather than building on the pre-existing complex relationships. Tim barely even gets along with his most important team in Dark Crisis: Young Justice because it seems the only important relationships the Batfamily can have is with each other. and when we do see them outside of the Batfamily, it only seems to be to relive the glory days like with World's Finest: Teen Titans, instead of developing them as they currently exist. this isn't recent in the comics, it feels like you can trace it back to the New-52, but it does feel a *lot* worse over the recent years. WFA is fine when it exists in its own bubble, but the simple truth is, DC content never exists on its own. the adaptations will reflect back onto the comics. (the damage the Young Justice cartoon has done to some characters should honestly be studied) and so it does frustrate me a bit when fanon-only or adaptation-only fans act like we're being nothing but killjoys for being frustrated with this. since they don't read the comics, they don't see how the comics are suffering as a result of this.

people argue about what's out of character for the comics they don't even read. i'm sorry, but "bad dad Bruce" is consistently canon. that man is just kind of shitty. when you take someone who has the drive he has, who has this need for the Mission first, who needs a teenager in spandex next to him to keep him off the ledge, that guy is sort of going to be a shitty father figure. he just is. not on purpose or with malice, but when you compare him to any other dad in a big DC family, he sure takes the cake. it's why characters like Oliver Queen tend to *really* fucking hate Bruce for how he treats his kids. Bruce loves fiercely, but he doesn't do well with putting that love first. and his love is a controlling one, he is very particular about controlling how others in the Batfamily are "allowed" to operate. it's what drives the wedge between him and Dick, it's why Steph is never a true daughter to him. (besides the reason of her needing to be a love interest to Tim first, anyway-) i've never understood the massive outcry of people reacting to Bruce kinda being shitty in comics they're not reading. there are some moments that get ridiculously OOC with how cartoonishly evil he is (the whole Gotham War arc and that... complicated mess with Jason) but largely if you want sitcom loving nuclear father Bruce, you have to accept that is a fanon thing, not a canon one. the Batfamily being a nuclear family in *general* is fanon. most of the "Batkids" don't actually see Bruce in a particularly fatherly light and begging for moments where he calls them his kids or they call him dad outside of incredibly specific circumstances is just OOC.

it's getting harder and harder to exist peacefully in this fandom it feels like, if you don't comply to the standard fanon has set. i'm happy people are having fun with their blorbos, even if in ways i dislike, but that "harmless fandom fun" does ripple it's way back to canon, eventually. so i end up pretty tangled with my feelings because are fans at fault for DC making these poor decisions? probably not, but it certainly feels like an unfortunate cause-and-effect situation whether at the end of the day, nobody is happy. and of course, i know some fanon-only fans are striving to be more canon accurate and care about canon dynamics more than others, but for them it's always going to be an uphill battle with the above-mentioned out-of-context panels thrown around and ever-pervasive fanon overtaking anything that's truly seeking to be canon compliant. so really, it sometimes feels like we're all losing.

[batboopp]

being positive in a perpetually negative fanbase is rlly exhausting tbh. you’ll be like ‘huh not the usual thing, but there was a lot of good stuff that came out of this!’ and then a 35 year old man will immediately say ‘this is the most fucking vile thing that I have ever seen in my life and i saw the introverted weird neighbor kid violently drown in the neighborhood public pool when i was nine’ like please lighten up you are rotting on the inside

[outlawssweetheart]

As an Afro-Latina, seeing people be like, “Oh, the White male villain being more popular than the female or WOC main characters is sexist and racist” has me pissed the fuck off. Do you know why we love those villains more? Because, unlike the Heroes™, they’re actually interesting, entertaining, amusing, multi-layered (multi-layered enough, at least, when it comes to Scream), and not the safest characters ever to put in a leading role. (As most protagonist are. 🙄)

I love seeing POC as main characters, but it’s just like the new Barbies: The diversity is great, but the dolls (really, the entire Barbie brand for the last decade) are ugly, boring, and cheaply/poorly made. POC characters have always been stereotypes in the back, and now that we finally get them at the front, they’re all boring as a brick.

I love villains; I don’t support their behavior in real life (*gasps* SEPARATING FICTION FROM REALITY?! 😱), but they’re the most enjoyable characters for me. But since people wanna scream, cry, and throw up if POC are anything but saints nowadays, the most enjoyable characters (for me) still go to the White people! 😒 (And the few POC villains I have seen in media are usually one-note as fuck. 🙃) So which fucking characters do you think I’m going to gravitate towards?

I love seeing WOC main characters (especially Black and/or Latina because it’s personal for me) but, just like 99% of main characters in popular media, they’re fucking bland. It ultimately is meaningless to me if they aren’t serving.

GO ON, GIRL; GIVE ME NOTHING! 🥳🥳🥳

[scribe-of-hael]

I think with the new Skybound comics and ES2 I am just tired of Starscream just being evil.

"Well he's always been evil!"

Debatable , but even if he was you have NEW universes where different shit happens, different events and butterfly effects. Do, somthing, eles. It is repetitive, it is tiring, you CAN do somthing different. Marvel does it , DC does does it. This is a series built of the concepts of multiverse.

Tfa is arguably one of the more different world considering the Autobots "won" , the Decpeticon forces are scattered and functionalism is VERY present. It was wildly popular! Optimus and Megatron didn't even KNOW each other, hell Megatron never even bothered to remember his name !

Armada acutally tried to give Starscream some sort of conflict, even CARING about the children even if a little.

Skybound is a just a psychopath and its just honestly for shock value and a way to make the squeaky seeker more "menacing" and honestly I roll my eyes. I'm tired of gore p*rn tbh.

Anything to do with a character that be worth wild, to go beyond the constant characterization after so many years is just tossed aside. I'd even argue they tried to tackle it in IDW. But nothing in video media.

It is the most devastating thing to present a character, a FAN favorite and hint at change but then whom ever is calling the shots just doesn't follow through.

Starscream can still stumble and fall , he can still struggle to be a good person. And I honestly WANTED to see that for him in es2. He can fall back into his habits, his unhelpful coping mechanisms. It's apart of untangling the trauma one has to go through to grow as a person and that's NOT a bad thing!

That is a very REAL thing people have to go through. Learning to be better is not an over night thing and I honestly wish we did see him stumble, regret it and try to do the right thing.

Instead they just in a kinda fucked up way JUSTIFIED what Megatron did to him. "He was crazy somtimes so I had to beat him up" like that shit wasn't funny then, and it's not now.

[fatsamsgrandslamspeakeasy]

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[theaudientvoid]

So, since both DC and Marvel are currently launching initiatives to created "simplified" continuities in a bid to attract new readers, I should probably do a periodic reminder about why efforts to "simplify" continuity almost never work, and even if they did, I don't think that simplified continuity is nearly as laudable goal as many people seem to thing.

In practice, attempts to simplify continuity almost always end up making continuity more complicated. Let's take the Marvel's current attempt, relaunching the Ultimate Universe. This is meant to be a new universe that readers can pick up of the rack without having to worry about decades of continuity baggage. So far, so good. The problem is that this is the second time that Marvel has done this trick using this exact name. So now, any time a prospective new reader hears about Ultimate Spider-Man, well which one are they hearing about. The old one from the 2000s who was a teenager, or the new one that's, like, 35?

The fate of the original Ultimate Universe is instructive. It went on for over a decade, and by the end had built up its own convoluted continuity, such that Marvel eventually decided to just pull the plug and merge it over into the main universe.

Now, keep in mind, the "New" Ultimate Universe is selling like hot cakes. Ultimate Spider-Man is currently out selling the main Spider-Man book. But how much of that is from "simplified" continuity, and how much of that is because Marvel editorial is committed to maintaining a status quo for the character in the main universe that many readers find uninteresting? (They still haven't undone One More Day.)

It's also instructive that Marvel chose to reuse the "Ultimate" name. If they really wanted to excise continuity baggage, presumably they'd pick an entirely new name, to prevent any threat of namespace collision. But that's not what they did. Presumably, they were hoping to capitalize on any residual good will associated with the Ultimate brand left over from the original Ultimate universe. Which new readers, who supposedly hate continuity, won't have.

All that being said, though, is "simplifying" continuity even all that worthy a goal in the first place? I'm not convinced it is. So, like, the thing to keep in mind is that Marvel and DC's business model is oriented around selling single issues to a small pool of collectors at exorbitant prices. Once a issues initial print run(s) end, it becomes an afterthought from the standpoint of the decision makers at the big two.

So, from the perspective of convincing randoms off the street to buy the latest issue of Batman, that decades of continuity baggage probably is an impediment. But, I would argue, it's not nearly as big an impediment that as the fact that single issues are a) expensive as fuck, and b) only sold in specialized stores. If you want to grow the population of comic readers, the biggest things you need to do are lower the price, and sell them in places that normies actually go to.

DC recently, with relatively little fanfare, started an initiative to sell collected additions of a handful of classic stories from their back catalog in regular book stores. Importantly, however, these special collections all collect 12 issues, and cost only $10. For comparison, ordinary trade paperbacks collect 6 issues and cost $17. Single issues run you $4 or $5. This is an okay start, but not nearly enough. If I was in charge of DC or Marvel, I would start by aggressively marketing our back catalog to non-comic readers at significantly reduced prices. Note that this would still allow us to continue selling single issues to super fans at full price, while also having a realistic prospect of growing the market. Because the idea that Marvel or DC can get people into comics by convincing them to walk into a comic shop off the street and pay $5 per issue for the latest crossover event is just absurd.

[pluckyredhead]

So the Bill Willingham Steph post crossed my dash again and got me wondering... if you're a writer, what IS the best way to respond to fans (singular or group) that publicly call out your writing at a con? Obviously you shouldn't wish violence on them but since it's not like you can un-write the story, do you ignore them? Change the subject? Argue back?

I mean, I can't pretend to know the BEST way to handle a volatile question in a public space, when saying nothing is not an option.

But I also want to challenge the idea that fans were "calling out [Willingham's] writing," because that wasn't what they were doing. Sure, plenty of people said he was a hack online. But at cons, what they were asking was "Why doesn't Steph have a memorial case?"

I always hammer that point home because it's so astonishing to me now. We didn't want them to bring Steph back from the dead. We just wanted them to memorialize her fairly. We were asking for crumbs, and it infuriated Willingham and DC Editorial. To the point that when they did bring Steph back by revealing Leslie Thompson had faked Steph's death, Tim goes "So that's why she didn't have a memorial case!" They would rather have her alive than give a bunch of (mostly) female fans the tiny bit of fairness they had been asking for. It's just mind-boggling to me now how little we were willing to settle for and how angry it still made DC.

Anyway, the decision to kill Steph was editorially mandated, and the decision not to give her a case was also editorially mandated - neither of those were Willingham's decision to make. (The other objection fans had, the sexualized depiction of Black Mask torturing Steph, was also not Willingham's fault - that was artist Jon Proctor.) Now, obviously Willingham couldn't just say "Not my fault, ask DC" because throwing his employer under the bus would not have been good for his career. But DC also shouldn't have hung him out to dry.

I think ideally with any controversial storyline, the publisher should have a discussion with the creators about the best way to handle questions so that everyone is on the same page. But what happens instead is that creators (underpaid freelancers who are almost all in precarious financial circumstances) bear the full brunt of any anger, blame, or harassment, and the publishers (massive corporations*) get to ignore it.

Of course, in Willingham's case, he was not harassed, but asked a polite question ("Why doesn't Steph have a memorial case?") that he probably could have easily said was up to DC without getting in trouble. But instead he chose to publicly fantasize about committing violence against real women, because he was annoyed. So that's DEFINITELY not the answer.

So in conclusion: in general publishers should step up more, in specific Willingham is a fucking douche.

-

*When I say "massive corporations" I'm talking specifically about DC and Marvel, who are owned by Warner Bros and Disney respectively. Image is not a massive corporation. Also, DC Comics and Marvel Comics are in tricky positions because they are actually small, weirdly ramshackle legacy publishers who in a lot of ways still operate like they did when Marvel had two (2) actual employees, Stan Lee and his secretary Flo Steinberg. They operate on tiny margins, everyone who works there is criminally underpaid, their HR is a fucking joke... So like, none of this excuses editors for repeatedly not supporting their creators during times of controversy (THE FUCKING MOCKINGBIRD COVER, Chelsea Cain is a TERF but that shit was ridiculous), but I think it's also important to remember that when we're talking about the people editing these books on a monthly basis, we're not talking about Bog Iger or David Zaslav - we're talking about someone living in NYC or Burbank working 60 hour weeks on a $45K salary so that Disney has enough IP to make Guardians of the Galaxy 9 or whatever. It's complicated.

[monsieuroverlord]

Some of the Pride Allies Variants are up

General housekeeping before I proceed with the Roast Fest

I want to make this explicitly clear: it is not my intention to hate on the artists themselves nor their art skills or anything along those lines.

Betsy Cola and Davi Go are both extremely talented and skilled artists. Support their work. Art is fucking hard and its even harder to actually get paid for it.

Betsy Cola is a queer Filipina and has an Instagram Page (but no online shop for prints). Lots of fun retro style (think 50s-60s-70s Pop Art)

Davi Go does have an INPRNT with lots of Marvel and DC Characters. Like nine different Emma Frost prints alone. A couple of lovely Laura Kinney and much more. For fine Art Prints, artists earn like 50% of the sale, I'm pretty sure.

I personally have no idea what goes into getting contracted to do any cover by Marvel, but I'm sure it was absolutely thrilling to get to do ANY work by a big company such as Marvel, where so many would get to see something I had made. I also have no idea how much an artist is told when they are contracted to make something. (Do they get told what it's for, or are they just given a generalized prompt? I truly have no idea)

I do know, that personally for me, doing ANYTHING of that caliber would be a dream come true. I've been reading comic books since I was five/six years old. While I only make shitty little fans arts and the occasional fanfic, if by some astronomical chance, I was offered to write or do a cover, I would absolutely jump on the chance. Or at least strongly consider it.

I am specifically critiquing Marvel's decisions as corporation to even come up with and sign off on something as obnoxious (and frankly, insulting) as "Pride Allies" for a variant series. Especially considering the overarching fact that historically Marvel has had its fair share of issues regarding its treatment of its queer characters -- lack of consistent appearances/storytelling, questionable treatment/writing choices, and blatant rainbow washing during Pride month to give a few generalizations (pick your favorite example, there's a lot). Sometimes its enjoyable to poke fun at company's ridiculous marketing ideas.

Much like the fact last winter they did a "Ski Chalet" variant series with skiing and snow activities, yet somehow didn't find an artist to do a variant of their ONE CANON OLYMPIC SKIIER.

But I digress.

In Summary: the act of creation is beautiful, don't be a douche canoe. Being punk is anti-establishment, not anti-people.

Thank you.

Now, ladies, gentlemen, and everyone in-between and outside thereof, first up we have:

Amazing Spider-man #52 by Davi Go

Davi Go does a pretty Northstar, I'll give him that.

But why is Spider-man here? What are they even doing? I know JP has canonically crushed on chatty dumbasses *cough cough* Iceman *cough cough* but I don't see the point of this pairing.

What are they even doing? Did Parker get lost on his way to the Pride Parade? Lmao.

Next:

Daredevil #10 by Davi Go

Rachel is very pretty. Looks very powerful here.

They both wear red, I'll give them that.

(I don't have much more to say on this one. I think my brain broke a little)

I genuinely do NOT see the point in pairing up a queer character with a random more popular Marvel hero. I repeat my question, who the hell signed off on this?

In my personal opinion, its just new lows in performative allyship and rainbow washing and whatever kind of marketing you wanna call it.

Source here for first two (directly from Marvel site)

[drifting-pieces-blog-blog]

is there any major moon knight news? (Comics or Show) I wasn't always online and barely keep up with marvel stuff but I really love Moon knight

Major news? In the comics: He's alive again! But that's old news. He came back about a month or two ago.

Moon Knight (the title, not the character) now has two runs going, which is just...Unheard of in the Moon Knight fandom! Which means he is popular and Marvel is taking note of it. Which can lead to a lot of very good things! Phases of Moon Knight is an exploration of different Moon Knights that have existed. This is interesting for those looking for more of that delicious lore and Khonshu stuff and more of the Fists. (Not exactly my cup of tea, as I'm in it for my boys, but I'll read it!)

Moon Knight has also been popping up in other comics a lot more! And not just as a background ghost! Check out the new run of Werewolf by Night! We're getting back to our roots! (It also has Elsa, who is greatly underappreciated).

Speaking of - Marvel MCU has announced that they have plans for a season 2 of Werewolf by Night! In no way is this an official promise to do it, as they have not confirmed the cast return, dates, or story, but only that they are looking strongly into it!

Which, if they bring back WBN, it could mean a wider introduction into the MCU and the formation of something that Moon Knight could become a part of! (My boys getting back together with Jack!)

Moon Knight also appeared in the What If Venom issue as a key player and let us not forget the Blood Hunt vampire extravaganza lead by McKay! And it didn't suck! (At least the parts that I read didn't. I've yet to read the main parts). Considering how much Age of Khonshu sucked, this is good news! And means that Marvel might start looking at Moon Knight seriously and as a $$ item.

Sadly, there are no news sources that I can trust right now about a season 2 of Moon Knight. They have discussed off and on that Oscar is up to continue the part and that they are looking at a potentially good story line for season 2, so maybe that means they are starting to actively consider making a season 2.

I do think that Marvel MCU is a little gun-shy right now. They have been scrapping movies and shows and plans left and right as the interest in superhero movies wanes. But honestly, the lack of interest has to do with the fact that Marvel shat out things so fast and so connected that people started to feel lost and disrespected for not knowing ALL the lore, when they really just wanted to see their favorite characters do the thing. That's just my opinion.

(DC also didn't help by the massive fiasco of shitty SHITTY movies that were coming out and then the constant censorship of the studio leading to director releases and reshoots... That that's a different rant all together.)

In other news, Marvel has ALSO started to secretly and quietly release novelizations of comic runs!! WHAT?! Venom What If-Moon Knight novelization just came out this past week! (There is also a Loki novelization that just came out for all those Loki fans out there).

So for all those fans that love to read more in search of deeper thoughts and secrets and takes, there you go! (Man I used to suck down Novelizations of movies when I was little and I think I'm looking that way again, I say as I eye the new Batman sequel book that is about to come out).

Sooo... Probably not the news you were looking for, but I've got my finger vaguely on the pulse of Moon Knight news and trust me when I say don't fall for all the fucking click-bait headlines that say SEASON 2?!!! and then it's just a retelling of some old news they found that the fandom already knows about season 1. I hate the way today's news stories are written.

[necrotic-nephilim]

ok so sending my question here bc this is more marvel comics than mcu related so im like. sliding you a note in class about an somewhat related but mostly tangential topic here 😂

so i've been wanting to get into bucky comics (and winter soldier comics) recently but as a dc fan now whose only marvel comics background is reading matt fractions hawkeye (the best ever, currently rereading it to feel something again actually) and part of wilsons ms marvel run back when i was in high school i have no idea where to start. you said that you have read comics for bucky; do you have any recommendations?

hello i love being slid notes this is so sweet <3 bc luckily Bucky is one of a small handful of characters i can *actually* give good recs for on the Marvel side of the fence! so i'm MORE than happy to give recs bc i actually already have a list i'm happy to share. also, BIG agree on Fraction's Hawkeye run, oh my god. that comic means *so* much to me and though i haven't really read Hawkeye comics outside of it, i love it a lot. 10/10 taste <3

so when it comes to Bucky, he has a *lot* of Golden and Silver Age comics as Captain America's teen sidekick and all. skip them. they're not worth it and they're not the version of the character you want to read. honestly, you should just start with his return as Winter Soldier, and go from there so

Captain America (2005) - this is Ed Brubaker's run, it's fantastic and it's the run that brings back Bucky as the Winter Soldier. i will warn you if you're used to DC comics, Marvel does this really confusing thing called legacy numbering. (DC sometimes does it but not as much) so you're gonna notice it'll jump from issue #50 to #600. you did not somehow miss hundreds of comics, it's just numbered that way bc it's the 600th Captain America comic overall. this run is super good though.

Captain America & Bucky by Ed Brubaker - once again numbering is weird just don't mind it. but this will give you a primer on Bucky's backstory as Cap's sidekick without you having to read all the Silver Age stuff and it's a great comic.

Captain America: Forever Allies (2010) - if you want to read where Bucky was Captain America for a bit, this comic is good for that. it also briefly touches on Secret Allies, a team he was on as a teen during the war. i'm not the biggest Cap!Bucky fun, but this is decent.

Winter Soldier (2012) - by *far* the best Winter Soldier solo run. Ed Brubaker my beloved. this is just amazing. this was where i started with Bucky and tbh if you vaguely understand his comics backstory and don't want to read all the Captain America stuff, i think you can start here. you get to see his relationship with Natasha, his spy work it's just. everything <3

Winter Soldier: The Bitter March - if you want to see a story that takes place during Bucky's time brainwashed under Hydra, that's what this one is and it's pretty solid

Thunderbolts (2016) - this comic is most known for the relationship between Bucky and a young girl who's a cosmic cube named Kobik and it's just so delightful. the whole team is really fun and explores moral greyness in superhero work, but mostly i love this one for Kobik.

Winter Soldier (2018) - i really enjoy this mini-series, it has Bucky trying to save a young boy who's forced to be a weapon and there's just a lot of good stuff. always have a soft spot for Bucky trying to do right by kids.

Falcon & Winter Soldier (2020) - a good team up mini-series. also Bucky has a cat so yk, that's delightful. <3

there are other Winter Soldier comics and comics he's in but Marvel's comic world is big and fucking confusing (to me as a DC fan, anyway) so these will be the easiest to start with. my top recs are probably Captain America & Bucky and Winter Soldier (2012), though i'm incredibly biased to any comic written by Brubaker for Bucky. i love Bucky so dearly. he is everything to me. i hope you enjoy!

[silk-and-web]

Watched Deadpool and Wolverine. My reactions:

Not as good as the first two but enjoyable enough. Better than I expected since I admittedly thought it'd be disappointing. It does what Quantumania did but better.

I appreciate how they responded to the complaint that they're ruining the ending of Logan by doubling down in the most Deadpool way possible.

Watching Deadpool viciously murder TVA agents was cathartic. It's the edge that the MCU painfully lacked, and a fuck you to the originator of the tired and underwhelming multiverse saga.

I'm glad we saw Deadpool's supporting cast and did not kill them off. I'm sad they had no role in the story, which I unfortunately expected. Same deal as Quantumania.

I don't know how Shatterstar is alive but I'm not complaining.

There were so many inside jokes that only hardcore fans who know what happened behind the scenes of Marvel, Fox, and even DC would understand. So naturally I laughed at them.

All the alternate Wolverines were fun. The Cavilvolerine was 10/10. We technically got a Hulk cameo.

I legitimately wondered if RDJ was going to cameo or not, but they lampshaded it as expected.

Chris Evans fuckin' got me. I thought they went all out for a Captain America variant. As soon as he said Flame On I lost it. I had a feeling he wouldn't be sticking around so I'm glad they admitted it was for budget reasons.

Xavier's sister was annoying af but she's the villain so I guess she did her job well

Every Deadpool and Wolverine fight was perfect. They basically fucked.

This movie had all the cameos people thought Multiverse of Madness was going to have. I did not expect nearly this many or who they brought in.

Blade was great and he's probably right we won't get another. Electra was so unexpected it's funny. Channing Tatum finally playing an extreme comic accurate Gambit was great. X-23 made me smile though I wish she had more to do in the film. I'm glad she was included in the ending so there's potential for her to appear again.

The two final acts were pretty predictable but entertaining enough. Not much else to say there.

Wolverine's suit is great though the mask was clearly CGI in a few shots.

The Deadpool Corps fell flat and had unclear motivations. They shouldn't have been included at all tbh.

Yeah Hugh Jackman is never going to stop being Wolverine lmao

Ultimately, it was an enjoyable but completely unnecessary movie that sadly lacks the heart of the previous films. Like Quantumania, it gets wrapped up in world ending threats at the cost of the supporting cast that made the previous movies great and meaningful.

Post credits scene was a good gag, made me laugh.

The credits clips and music made me emotional. It's the send-off to Fox X-Men (and F4) we never truly got. Can't believe how young Hugh Jackman was back then. Seeing Quicksilver got me bad, I love Peters' portrayal so much.

And the Thor scene is such a funny tease because I highly doubt there are any actual plans set in stone so Ryan Reynolds is just daring Feige to find a way to retroactively make that spoiler a spoiler.

[batmanisagatewaydrug]

I saw your ATSV reaction post and wanted to chime in a little about Miguel and Spiderman 2099. Because I love him but also your reaction to him is 100% correct, and I am also lowkey mad about people jumping straight to 'he did nothing wrong'-ing/fetishizing him.

Like, Miguel is trying his best (as Spiderman) but he's not a nice person! His arrogance and hot temper are major tenets of his character. His comics run is Mostly him fucking up his interpersonal relationships, finding out new horrible layers to the bad things that happen/ed to him, and then reacting poorly to those things (then dying) (he got better). I thought it was actually very fun of Sony to make him the Spider Society guy because he's the last person I would put in charge of anything. Like there's some fun commentary to be made on the fact that Miguel's canon lore also very much does not line up with the average Spiderman's backstory, while he's being written as placing himself in a position to act as arbiter-of-Spider-People, when he only Became a Spiderperson himself as part of a cascade of Reacting Poorly To Things.

(Be a corporate genetic engineer in the Horrid Capitalist Future -> trying to make A Spider-Man -> first human test goes horribly because your evil boss won't listen to you about the feasibility of your work -> try and quit via emotional outburst -> your boss gets you secretly addicted to illegal future drugs that are 100% addictive because they bond to your DNA or some nonsense -> your boss blackmails you into continuing to work on the person-melting Build-A-Spiderman genetics machine -> you decide to use the genetics machine to reset your DNA to before you were addicted to genetics-altering drugs -> your jealous co-worker sets the machine to give you 50% spider DNA instead -> you are mutated into a Horrid Spider Man -> you react to his by trying to kill yourself -> you live because your bullshit spider mutations save you -> all this and your drug addiction isn't even cured -> have the revelation that Capitalism Is Bad -> later find out your evil boss is also your dad)

It's unfortunately 100% in character for him to react to being happy and then incidentally destroying his own happiness (which, I have seen some wild takes about the whole 'replaced himself in another dimension' thing, but let's be real Miguel doesn't think he Deserves to be happy, so it was probably a BIT more complicated than him just being like 'hey free AU') by aggressively trying to police the multiverse because he's unfortunately a genius and also unfortunately just incredibly angry and aggressive and fueled by his own deep self-loathing and guilt.

Which is a long-winded way of getting around to the fact that Miguel using cult tactics on the Spiderpeople is because Miguel is using cult tactics on Himself to justify his actions (to himself) as part of (get this) a further cascade of Reacting Poorly To Things.

I'm personally still staggered by the fact that they made Miguel the Spider Society guy, like, I am really hoping this pans out in BTSV because, yes, Miguel has a storyline about messing around with the timeline, but that was Time not Dimensions, so I do want there to be a reason beyond 'who is the most maladjusted and traumatized and ill-tempered Spiderperson to be our antagonistic authority figure?'

Sorry this got long but ATSV has really unlocked new depths of hell for me in terms of 'niche comics character that doesn't get much attention now suddenly getting lots of attention'. I want to talk about my little guy but also my little guy needs to be appropriately contextualized and not belt-sanded into a dreaded fandom archetype.

god there's nothing I love more than a rant off a comic book fan whose little guy is being interpreted wrong. I spend most of my time in DC spaces so getting to reach across the aisle with empathy to a Marvel dude feels great, really bringing people together.

[angelflms]

talked about it on insta and ima do it here because i know xolo fans are so excited about this recent insider that just dropped but i have been a part of the mcu fandom for way too long and i know how things go:

TAKE THE NOVA NEWS WITH A GRAIN OF SALT.

here's some facts about this whole thing that contradicts this announcement (not saying the casting is wrong or that it's impossible but it's very unlikely):

- xolo is under a current DCU contract with warner. marvel doesn't fuck with actors who are working with the competition (his voice acting work for moon girl and devil dinosaur doesn't count as it wasn't for the MCU and he did it before being cast as jaime)

- xolo is heavily rumored and hinted at to be playing ace for once piece on netflix

- the insider said filming starts in feb 2025

- kevin feige, the marvel studios president JUST announced that the nova project is gonna be in three to four years time

- so timing doesn't make sense

now there's some elements to this that can be true. glenn close and john c reliy's characters ARE probably gonna be in the project considering their connection to the cosmic world of the MCU (and close literally playing nova prime) BUT that's the only thing from the insider i personally believe.

xolo can still possibly be cast in the show. that can still be a thing. he could be sam alexander but again i highly doubt it. he could make an appearance as a live action, aged-up version of his character in moon girl and devil dinosaur as his character could fit into the world of nova pretty well (idk enough about his character to know if he's a character created just for that show or if he's in the comics), being that he is a kree alien.

now i have been wrong before about many announcements. and there can be a lot of ways we can find out if things are true but rn, i'd say that these rumors are just that: rumors. now they may not be outta nowhere. BUT the filming date is definitely wrong imo. casting could be true but i again don't think xolo can be in the mcu, one piece, AND the dcu all at once, especially if they need his characters to come in at whatever time they need him for. that would be way too straining for one actor, let alone one so young. i don't wanna crush anyone's spirit but that's a lot when you think of it.

now there have been castings of my favs that i thought were very unlikely just because i thought the universe would be too kind but did work out. big example being hailee steinfeld as kate bishop and joe locke as "teen" (billy allegedly) rn. and at the time of their castings, hailee already did spider-verse and joe filmed heartstopper so an actor being in the MCU and a netflix project isn't too far fetched.

but dc, marvel, and netflix while playing prominent roles that are gonna make many appearances that we have no confirmation about is wild. bc if so, that means he would be in multiple seasons of one piece, allegedly the teen titans movie, the blue beetle animated series, the nova show, any possible future guardians/cosmic/kree-related project, and that avengers two parter project, not to include lending his voice to the smurfs movie that he was announced in as well. all within a span of a couple of years. and let's not forget the crazy routines marvel has you do like idk.

xolo as sam isn't crazy. and i wanna see him in the show. but it just seems highly unlikely. but i'll wait until feige or deadline confirms it (or any of my trusted mcu insider accounts i follow since none of them have posted about it)

if he does pull all of that off though... i'm MARRYING the bitch.

[brazilian-whalien52]

It is so funny when people get annoyed with shippers in the comics fandom because God does every author have their own agenda and you can clearly see this when they are in charge of a project

Using some mainstream couples that got adapted to live action and animations. We get in Marvel the whole Wolverine X Jean Grey X Scott or in DC that we have Barbara X Dick X Kory. This is just so hilarious and I mean you can even see how some authors having a preference affects a generation perception over some ships?

For example I was born in the late 90s and grew up with Teen Titans (Kory x Dick) and X-Men Evolution (Scott X Jean). This are my little babies because I just loved following their relationships as a kid, when I find out other versions that they weren't together I cried so hard (I had a hard time with the X-Men movies for real the first time).

But I know that a generation that was a little before me grew with barbara x dick in the batman animations, and the ones after got them in young justice too. While I would say that the live action movies definitely bring more of the Jean x Logan.

But this we are talking about popular ship, we also have cases that the author just like some rare ship and decides to go with it (happened so much in the justice league cartoon) or they are like "fuck the ships I just want two hot people making out"

Truly thou, if the authors are so unhinged why can't we the fans?

[lexcellence]

What is it about Western comics as a medium that enables them to tell specific stories--or be types of art--that other media can't replicate? It feels like it'd be so easy to translate a comic to a film, but we've also seen how outrageously difficult it really is. What, to you, makes comics so worth it all?

This is gonna be long and hella cynical, and I'm going to specifically focus on the big two (Marvel and DC) here, but I think a big part of it comes down to money, and the fact that comics are largely considered to be disposable media by the companies creating them.

See, there isn't a ton invested into the actual creation of comics. Creators are freelancers, so no need to worry about pesky things like "paying a reasonable wage," or "offering health insurance" — every few months or so you'll see people who shaped and revolutionized the medium setting up gofundme's because they never got a safety net, and they aren't taken care of by the companies they put all that work into. IP rights and royalties largely aren't a thing, and the nature of capeshit is that you're always going to find some fan who is honored to have the opportunity to write for them, even as the creators they grew up reading are torn up and spit back out. Couple that with an inherently built in marketbase of nerds, and, more often than not, not "wasting" money advertising actual comics to anyone who doesn't buy them already, and to a large extent it doesn't really matter what risks a comic takes. Warner and Disney don't really have to give a shit —a "bad" superman comic, by any definition of bad, might piss off a few nerds, but isn't gonna do a damn thing to the cultural perception of Superman™️, the Brand™️, available on everything from t-shirts to truck nutz at your local Walmart. And hell, 99 times out of 100 the nerds will keep buying the book anyway, and who cares if they don't, because the comic shops will.

Movies, on the other hand, are a pretty significant investment! You've got actors, hundreds of people in cast and crew, and *actual marketing.* They've gotta make that money back and then some, while appealing to an audience of people who might own a Batman wallet, but couldn't tell you the difference between Joe Chill and Victor Fries. It's harder to take risks with movies, because suddenly you might actually taint the image of a seventy year old brand, and that terrifies all of the investors. You throw too much Comic Book Bullshit™️ at general audiences who haven't already devoted their personalities to caring about who Batman is fucking that week (Hal Jordan), and it gets messy. This isn't even some "general audiences wouldn't understand*" gatekeepy shit, either - if you pick up literally any random comic issue and you don't like it, worst case scenario you've spent like four bucks and fifteen minutes of your life, and you've got anything from dozens to thousands of other issues to try.

*that being said, I still maintain that Batman & Robin is better than any Batman comic that came out that year, and everyone who says otherwise is a fucking coward.

And so, comics end up in a weird, probably ultimately untenable position of being able to take more risks, and being made largely by people who love comics, and grew up speaking their bullshit language. They're self-obsessed and masturbatory, sure, but the thing about saying that derogatorily is that it ignores the fact that masturbation is fun? The worst comics I've read, and I've read a lot of bad comics, are still almost always labors of love, be that for better or for worse. As exhausted as I get sometimes, it's hard for me to write that off entirely.

And, ultimately, I'm just way too invested in who's fucking Batman (Superman).