#fandom discourse mention

[tnbc-thoughtsandheadcanons]

Kind of bugs me that some people's takeaway to the Henry Selick-Tim Burton director 'discourse' was that everyone suddenly wanted Selick to have ALL the credit for The Nightmare Before Christmas and remove Tim's name from the movie entirely, when....that was never the point?

All we really wanted was for Henry Selick to be officially recognized and celebrated as Nightmare's director in the public, after popular misconception made it to where Tim Burton was mislabeled as TNBC's director, when he was not. Tim was repeatedly being quoted as the 'genius' or 'mastermind' behind the project, given nearly all/most of the credit, without any acknowledgement to Selick or the crew's work for a long time.

To entirely remove or discredit Burton from the movie was never the goal, but instead to give the credit in the RIGHT places. A simple and easy thing to ask of people, really -- but the moment it's Henry who is being praised for his own directing work, and given the equal amount of appreciation Tim had been given for years, it's suddenly an ulterior motive against Burton + his fans..? 🤨

[soulscum]

Not going to lie, kinda don't want to make a SFW account on Tumblr because I'm tired of living my life separately.

If antis find me, then mashallah ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ I just don't give a fuck anymore.

That being said, hello @ the zine accounts I'm following. Be careful scrolling through my blog lmao

[butterflyinthewell]

[catofoldstones]

we already have people bitching about how “i can’t stand Chani, she’s so annoying 🙄” and “Paul chose Chani to be the mother of his children, Irulan is just at the sidelines eating dust as she should”, like brothers we cannot do this again. We can’t Chani v Irulan our way out of this one because the problem is Paul and the Empire. Gosh, we truly are never getting out of the patriarchy.

[stemms]

I could never understand people who treat DSMP like a dead fandom or feel ashamed of still adoring this piece of media in 2024. After all, isn’t the whole point of enjoying any story to keep it in your heart for years instead of forgetting about it the moment it loses its popularity? How did classical literature or old movies/series survive and remain appreciated until today, for example? The DSMP fandom is alive because there still are people who deeply care about the characters, and it will keep on living until there’s at least one person passionate about it.

It is true that the DSMP fandom was bigger in 2020-2022, but it’s also important to remember the quality of the fanbase at the time. I remember seeing so much more harassment, especially directed towards people interested in portraying c!Prime’s canonically abusive dynamic without even exploring the aspect of /p physical affection; many people were forced to deactivate their accounts because of the insane amount of toxic reactions. There were also A Lot of people incapable of understanding that CC’s characters weren’t supposed to represent their real life personalities, which either led to certain CC’s harassment for being “horrible people” or to misinterpretation of certain characters (e.g. c!Dream, c!George, c!Sapnap, c!Quackity, or c!Sam), a huge amount of poor lore comprehension, leading to Lots of victim-blaming and abuse apologism.

Now that DSMP is over and less popular, a significant amount of people responsible for the fandom’s poor reputation is gone, and people who genuinely understand the characters and simply want to discuss and/or create content for their hyperfixation in peace, stayed. Of course, this fandom isn’t perfect or entirely free of Weird™ people, but there’s certainly less toxicity, and it’s all that matters.

The next time you feel ashamed of still enjoying DSMP, try to remind yourself of the wonderful memories, excitement, creativity boost, and friends it brought you, and focus on the fact that this story will remain alive for as long as you let it.

[half-oz-eddie]

I’m up early thinking about how fast people went from being cool about Tommy (and Lou) and the first kiss to absolutely hating him and wanting him dead.

At first, seeing the kiss brought everyone together, but also not really. Everyone was excited about the kiss, how it was executed and the fact that Buck was bisexual, but the thing is, many people were excited for completely different reasons.

Some people were excited because they thought Buck was written as bisexual for them. For their ship. To fit into their headcanons.

So at first, they were willing to ride the wave of Buck and Tommy, thinking he was only gonna be around for 4 episodes. They read Lou’s interviews, thought it was great that he improvised the chin grab, and he received a great deal of approval for how gentle he was with Buck. It wasn’t just bucktommy shippers that wanted to interact with Lou on twitter at one point in time.

Then, people started showing interest in Buck and Tommy as a ship and not a stepping stone and bucktommy shippers were being side-eyed like “hey haha wtf are you doing, this is temporary.” There was a lot of disappointment and resentment because people were “closing” on one ship to enjoy a very real and canon ship, and then the ship itself grew to 1,000 fics in a very short period of time and again, people were like “hey haha wtf, can you literally fucking stop? you’re being weird over a 4 episode fling.” and then people were showing Lou a lot of love, booking his Cameos and constantly praising bucktommy as a couple. And once more, people were like “yo, what the FUCK, you’re gonna make them last longer STOP TALKING ABOUT IT.”

So then the heavier resentment began and there was a very nasty shift. It was “bucktommy bones xx episode trust” every week until it wasn’t, and people became angrier and angrier about it.

Some people already didn’t like Tommy, but they were willing to speak on it either privately or not very aggressively until, well, Tommy received a lot of support and was *checks notes* around for too fucking long. And then hundreds of people started being so aggressive about it that some people felt forced to pick a side for sanity.

People were showing interest in Tommy in a way that was upsetting to people because it made him too significant. Like, when people asked for a Tommy begins episode and fatphobic jokes were made in response.

Shippers have been single-handedly blamed for Tommy being around beyond the 4 episodes. A lot of people thought he would simply disappear and Buck would move on to the relationship people believed he was made bisexual for.

I watched this happen and things became more and more uncomfortable with every week that passed until it was insufferable and I deactivated my old twt account and recently made a new one and blocked a bunch of people.

[allthingswhumpyandangsty]

literally just saw another “call out” post in my fandom, “this person ships these characters together, they support fucked up things in fiction. moots, unfollow them, they’re disgusting for liking these fictional things 🤢” can we please just. not do this? especially with all that’s going on in the world recently, can we please not try to take away people’s source of comfort? who cares what fictional things a person enjoys? they’re ✨fiction✨. they’re ✨not real✨. you don’t know what battle a person is going through outside of social media. you don’t know if fandom is literally the last source of happiness they have left. you don’t know if fandom is the only thing keeping them alive right now.

ask yourself, is it really worth it? you claim to be “morally superior” by “exposing” people who find comfort in fictional things you deem morally unacceptable. but is it really worth it if your words drove a person into harming themself?

are you really being morally superior by being the reason someone hurts themself?

these characters are fiction. but the person you’re harassing in the name of being morally superior is a real person with real feelings.

if you find something that you don’t like, instead of going out of your way to harass someone, scroll past it, ignore it, mute it, block it. and focus on the things you do enjoy.

with everything that’s going on in the world right now, now is the time we need to keep fandoms safe. they’re the last source of happiness some people have left.

[prokopetz]

"Guy who acts like you're personally oppressing them when you acknowledge the existence of tabletop RPGs that aren't Dungeons & Dragons" versus "guy who's like 'oh my god, just play a different game', but then their rec list consists exclusively of Dungeons & Dragons clones" – fight!

[xx-slug-xx]

The day that antis learn that “noncon” is absolutely just slang for “rape/sa in fiction” is the day my joints stop hurting tbh

Key phrase is the “in fiction”. Nobody is out here calling real life sexual abuse “noncon”. The very idea that there are people out there who are is just a made up thing antis made up. The only context we’re I’ve seen sex abuse referred to as “noncon” is on places like TikTok where the mere mention of the word “rape” gets your content taken down. Nobody in their right mind would call it what it’s not, but censorship is a bitch and it prevents us from using the proper terms for a very serious subject. When censorship isn’t an issue though, people call it what it is. Sexual abuse and rape.

Noncon is used specifically for fiction though. It’s slang for sex abuse and rape in fiction. Nobody is trying to make it sound like it’s not exactly that. It’s just another word for it and it’s used explicitly in fictional works because it’s not as serious as if it were to happen to a real person. Real abuse and fiction are not equals in any way, and using the term “noncon” to denote that separation is good actually. Noncon fanfics aren’t real, they should not be treated with the same seriousness as sex abuse.

[frownyalfred]

Can I get clarification on your pro shipping post? The example you gave was a 20 year old with a 40 year old, and that's "problematic" (not really), but not really what I think of when I hear "pro shipping". Usually it's the shipping of minor/adult or incestuous relationships that I see getting defended. Does being against fictional works/ships that depict pedophilic or incestuous relationships as normal/romantic count as puritanism to you? Do you see the ship of Bruce Wayne/Damian Wayne as a personal preference with no moral implications?

I think there's a huge difference between being personally against something, and wanting to shame others or ban others from reading or writing something. The Puritanism comes from wanting to limit and ostracize others who don't share your beliefs. It comes from believing that your perspective is the only morally right one.

I think there will always be people who want to write or read about ships like that, yeah -- incest, pseudo-incest, everything in between. By moral implications, do you mean for the person interested in the ship? Or do you mean for others? Because I see that concern a lot on here -- this idea that somehow, by wanting to read/write about something, people are either 1) harming others by spreading this morally wrong ship or 2) harming themselves by normalizing the ship, and therefore making it more likely that they'll pursue similar relationships in their real lives.

We don't have much evidence for either of those claims. People have been clutching their pearls and wringing their hands over "morally wrong" books for ages -- and yet, Game of Thrones is still available in every bookstore. Am I a bad or woefully misguided person for having read Lolita in high school? Is a 16 year old reading a Bruce/Damian fic likely to turn around, shrug, and say "guess fucking my Dad is okay now"? Did an entire generation of fans shipping Wincest somehow have lasting, moral effects? I really don't think so. Not at the scale anti-shippers online seem to think, at least.

I think we need to separate how we moralize people from the content that they consume. And acknowledge that shaming and excluding people for wanting to read something doesn't exactly do much to prevent "moral implications." There's also a huge difference between reading a book, and endorsing the ideas/events inside of it. Same things with fics.

Anti-shipping is very appealing to people because it purports to protect people from harm. Until you look a little closer, and you realize that that protection comes at the expense of free expression, creative license, and agency to choose what we personally do and do not consume. And that that protection isn't really airtight out of your anti-shipping discord or tumblr community.

I think the best we can do is let people write and read what they want -- whatever they want, with limited warnings/etc like ao3 employs -- and ensure that those pieces of content are tagged, warned, and displayed accurately. We need to understand that the only control we have is over ourselves, and what we choose personally to consume or not consume.

I don't generally read those fics you mentioned, but I'm not saying they should be banned from ao3. Just because I might possibly think they're wrong or gross doesn't mean I think the person who wrote them is wrong or gross, either. The more we go down that moral slip and slide, like I said in my previous post, the worse off we will all become.

[messiahzzz]

i’m not here to claim that wyll doesn’t deserve more extra content or that larian’s perspective of him isn’t rooted in racism in any way whatsoever. however, i sincerely believe that it’s always important to list the facts first before misinformation continues to spread which only results in more needless outrage.

these are all of wyll’s scenes that exist in the game as of now:

meeting karlach, mizora, and his transformation, the tiefling party kiss, the dance scene, mizora visiting camp, another scene where mizora visits camp, and the proposal scene. additionally, mizora and uldred can join camp, if he is alive.

in strict comparison - this is the exact amount of scenes the other origin characters have:

Astarion has 9 scenes, 6 of which can possibly be romantic.

Lae’zel has 7 non-standard dialogue scenes, 3 of which can possibly be romantic.

Shadowheart has 6 non-standard dialogue scenes, 3 of which can possibly be romantic.

Gale has 6 non-standard dialogue scenes, 3 of which can possibly be romantic.

Karlach has 4 non-standard dialogue scenes, 3 of which can possibly be romantic.

Wyll has 5 non-standard dialogue scenes, 2 of which can possibly be romantic.

source: [x]

wyll is lacking one scene compared to characters like shadowheart and gale. lae’zel merely has another non-standard dialogue scene, while astarion has double the amount of possible romance scenes and 9 scenes in total.

here is a video of wyll’s entire story: [x] at a duration of 2:25:24 in total it’s very similar in length to the romances of the other companions the same channel uploaded. (minthara & halsin excluded)

i have also seen many people refer to the datamined voicelines as proof of how much content wyll lacks. this, however, doesn’t tell us much since those compilations include battle grunts, noises, and other repeated lines. if you want to check them out for yourself, here is chubblot’s playlist on youtube: [x]

wyll’s romance/approval-specific greetings also exist, they are merely bugged. although i have heard that some people have been able to trigger them. bugged content is something that also affects other companions – in fact, most of gale’s romance scenes and some integral dialogue have been bugged for months now with no fixes anywhere in sight. if you don’t want to look for wyll’s greetings in the files, i took the liberty of doing it for you:

alas, his general reactivity after act i remains the same as with the others. aka: he's barely responsive to his surroundings nor to any key decisions the player makes.

wyll also isn’t the only character who isn’t able to make his own choice on whether he agrees to sell his soul for his father’s life or not. in fact, the only characters who can decide their own fate are shadowheart and lae’zel. the latter option only now being added with patch 6.

so what exactly did wyll get after patch 6? the same amount of kisses like everyone else: 4 in total. as well as some new idle animations and polished facial expressions. the kiss where he invites tav for a quick twirl had already been added in an earlier update (patch 5, 30th november 2023). which means it’s understandable that certain characters who didn’t receive any new animations or other content before were now added with patch 6 as well.

wyll’s quest regarding ansur also didn’t get removed from the game. this is plain false. larian merely changed the subcategory in the journal (which larian had done previously with astarion’s gur-related quest as well)

if you have a gripe with this particular decision: that is valid. the quest, however, is still the exact same as it was before.

i see fandom heading in this really dangerous direction where people fully believe they have the right to attack others for pointing out the existence of false information. i understand that people are upset about wyll having less content than characters like astarion and i am in no way here to claim that you should refrain from calling out racism where it’s due. however, this hostile behavior directed at anyone who dares to disagree with you is creating a really toxic environment within online spaces, where people hesitate to engage with the wyll side of the fandom at all (out of fear of immediately receiving the racist card for merely correcting inconsistencies in logic). and in case it needs to be said again: it is never justified to harass real people or send death threats to others under any circumstances, much less if it concerns a fictional character.

i, much like everyone, really want wyll to receive more love from fandom and larian alike. but it is no one’s place to police other players on how they should engage with this specific character in their own game. if others simply couldn’t connect to wyll as much as you personally have – for whatever reason – that is on them. it's them who are missing out. this shouldn’t hinder your enjoyment of this character in any way or discourage you from creating more fan content.

TL;DR: it’s completely valid to request more wyll content, but please don’t resort to “demands” or public pressure directed at the devs. this is only doing more harm in the long run (to wyll’s, as well as his fanbase's reputation within the rest of the fandom instead of actually accomplishing much). don’t spread misinformation that he’s the only one of the companions who is continuously receiving the short end of the stick in terms of content, general reactivity, and bug fixes. if anything, the biggest difference is between him and astarion (again, much like every other companion).

🙏 please be respectful to each other 🙏

update, 19th february:

a user suggested providing an alternative to petitions on this post and linking directly to larian’s official feedback form, which you can find here: [x]

you’ll be able to add screenshots of the specific issue you’re reporting. keep in mind that you need to name your exact game version if you plan to send in a report. i’ve had larian ask me to send them the specific game files in the past, so it’s best to keep them on hand in advance.

larian also has a faq page on how to submit a general bug report [x]

here is an example of what to write:

(I’d like to address the disparity in content between Wyll and the other origin companions.) As of now, Wyll is lacking an entire scene compared to the rest of the characters, and his romance-specific greetings remain bugged as well. The lack of equal scenes makes Wyll’s story feel lackluster at times and undermines the pacing of his romance and overall character arc. It is very disheartening for POC players specifically to see racial biases reflected in his treatment and that Wyll didn’t receive the same amount of resources. Considering his narrative role as the Grand Duke's son he also deserves to be in the spotlight. When can we expect any fixes or additional content?

[tnbc-thoughtsandheadcanons]

this might be a little strange, but sometimes i feel a hint of guilt for buying tnbc merch because i wonder how much of that money goes to burton and if im supporting him in a way? he's done some real questionable stuff idk it just irks me a little bit (for the record i may have moral ocd) what are your thoughts on this

When you buy TNBC merchandise, you are also supporting Disney, a corrupt monopoly known for despicable practices. And if you want any sort of Nightmare-related entertainment, you have to visit Disneyland, which is directly funding the company. Because the movie is Disney, any (legal) consumpton of it inevitably gives money to them and Tim Burton. But there's nothing we can do about that. So try not to feel super guilty about indulging in your interests and just wanting a cool Oogie Boogie mug. We are all trapped under capitalism yadda yadda.

However, I also like to remember the entire crew that worked on this movie and poured their soul + love into it. Even though they see no profit from all of the merch, their work is still being seen and celebrated to this day. I think it's important to listen to their Podcasts and learn what they went through to make the movie we love. Henry Selick is a talented man - I see no reason why we SHOULDN'T give love to his movie.

Unfortunately, Tim Burton and Disney will see the majority of profit and be the ones responsible for sequel continuations and adaptations. It's just the way it's been and always will be. But we can give our thanks to all the animators and crew that worked hard to make TNBC. Tim Burton had little involvement in that process - he may own the licenses, but he wasn't a one-man-team behind the project.

[bbnibini]

I find it so painfully heartbreaking that Solomon just...laughs off all the derision, the name-calling, and possibly even did "evil" things on purpose because it's expected of him at this point. (He had not always been like this as Thirteen pointed out before). There was a time when he was "innocent". When his soul sparkled. When it resembled the kind of soul everyone in these god forsaken (pun intended with spite) three realms seemed to associate with the ever loved MC. He's just...worryingly carefree. And because he's like that, he feels even more of a tragic character to me.

Sometimes it even seems that he himself would seemingly make up excuses on why he's hated. Oh, it's because I'm a sorcerer this. I might have won a war against Devildom single-handedly this. I have forgotten. But maybe, I did something bad, that. Hon, you were doing that to SURVIVE. You don't have to be a faultless person to deserve compassion. You don't have to be MC to deserve to be loved.

[averysherwood]

A guide to determine who are siblings and who are not on the example of TOH

Follow the instructions below and don't harass people for nothing

1. Do they have the same parents?

Yes? Congratulations, they are siblings! ✅

2. Do they have one same parent?

Yes? Cool, they're siblings! ✅

3. Is one of them adopted by another's parent(s) / Are both of them adopted into the same family?

Yes? No questions, they are siblings! ✅

4. Do they have the same parental figure who raised them / Do they call each other brother/sister?

Yes? Then... It's complicated. They're not siblings in the usual sense, but it's still really wierd to see them in a romantic way, even if they don't have any other problems (king x luz clearly does have other problems, don't get me wrong)

5. Is none of the above list suitable for characters in question?

I have some news for you, they are NOT siblings! ❌

You can headcanon them whatever you want, but it doesn't give you any rights to harass people who doesn't see them in the way you see!

[yuri-puppies]

deciding that affectionately referring to someone as a grandparent is some sort of ableist slur is one of the wildest takes i've seen in a while and it's genuinely baffling how much hold the idea has in certain sections of the fandom

i have such a positive association with that term as an expression of solidarity between disabled people

my (queer, neurodivergent, disabled) friend group in undergrad (in our 20s!) called ourselves "the grandmas" to express how alienated we felt from other young queers, to reclaim our "old lady bodies" and our "old-fashioned hobbies"

the middle aged and elderly folks saying my sibling and i "went old ahead of time" at low impact exercise and folk dancing classes were welcoming us into the fold and expressing solidarity

i hate the pain and fatigue of my disability, how unreliable it makes it and i occasionally resent the ways it excludes me from mainstream society

but i love elders and i'm glad to have been welcomed prematurely into their ranks

yes i know the linking of youth with ablebodiedness should be challenged, and i know my experiences aren't universal, but we also need to take things in the spirit intended. targeting disabled people expressing self-recognition through a fictional character or young folks poking fun of themselves for how disproportionately they perceive age is just weird and pointless

[fromtheseventhhell]

I love how people are only ever interested in defending Arya's right to be weird-looking. It's never defending her intelligence from people who claim she's incapable of thinking for herself, highlighting her importance to the plot and refusing to see her as just a prop, acknowledging how much of her story gets stolen and given to other characters, talking about her trauma or how often it gets erased and overlooked, seeing her as more than just an attack dog/bodyguard, etc. Nope. It's just a "why can't people let Arya be ugly/unconventional looking? :(" post every other week because people are, for whatever reason, obsessed with how Arya is visually perceived. One of the most misinterpreted characters yet the issue is only ever with her being portrayed as "too pretty" or the wrong "type" of pretty. This fandom will entirely rewrite a character's motivations, values, and role in the story to the point that they consider references to canon "hate" but! The true injustice to canon is we acknowledge that she is described as pretty several times. Arya simply existing as her pretty, important, and non-conforming self is too complex and confusing for people to comprehend 😔.