#character interaction: Catelyn

[ravarui]

Starter for @alyafae cause she's my beloved and gets all the special benefits

Never in his life would Anthony have thought he would have to hide and travel like a common criminal. The death of his brother had left his marks on his soul. To think that he had lost nearly everyone of his family by now. His father Rickard and oldest brother Brandon, both killed by the mad king. Then his beloved sister Lyanna and now Ned as well. Tony was no religious man, but it felt as if someone or something just wished to make his family suffer in all kinds of ways.

Speaking of family, he glanced at the young redheaded girl at his side. His niece, Sansa, to whom he was no more than an estranged uncle who had left Winterfell many years ago. Still, getting her and himself out of Kings Landing was the least he could do, he owed his dead brother that much at least. Yes, he had sworn his loyalty to the Lannisters when that brat Joffrey had gotten crowned, but this oath meant nothing to him. Should they curse him, call him an oath breaker, he didn't care. He had done what was necessary for his own survival and he would do it over and over again. His pride was worth nothing if it cost him his life and would have left his niece completely alone in Kings Landing.

Their travel hadn't been easy, but nothing but relief flooded him when they finally reached the Twins. He may despise the Freys, but there had been talk that this was where his nephew was currently with the rest of the Northman. And seeing the banners of House Stark flying proudly in the wind confirmed everything.

However it wasn't his nephew he would seek out first. There was someone else he needed to speak to first. And by the gods he owed her so many apologies.

Whispers spark immediately when he makes his way through the camp with Sansa at his side. He may not have been in the North for many years, but there were enough men who still recognized him. The two of them come to a halt in front of a tent and it's then that Catelyn, his brothers wife turns and makes eye contact with him.

"Lady Stark...." he doesn't know what else to say, not when Sansa rushes past him with the cry of mother and wraps her into a hug. Yes, he may have been able to get one of the girls out, but not Arya. His youngest niece was still missing and he had no clue about her whereabouts. He dreaded that conversation already.

[fromtheseventhhell]

are there any sapphic arya ships that you like? i headcanon her as bisexual 🫶🏻

First of all, the big three (Dany, Arya, Jon) are all bisexual to ME. As for sapphic ships, Daenarya is just my favorite ASOIAF ship in general. The show (I know) showed me the vision for Dany/Asha + I think Dany/Brienne would be cute. Aside from that I don't really think that much about ships? I have an endless list of female characters I would love to see interacting but a majority of it isn't on a shipping level. Ex. I like the idea of Arya/Myrcella and Arya/Shireen interacting, but that's more on a friendship level and Arya getting to be around other girls her age.

[aia-prima-raufton]

Keeping the tags because they're so important. Also, reading this made me realize now why it was so easy for Breaking Bad fans to pin down Skyler White as the villain of the show.

male gaze is not 'when person look sexy' or 'when misogynist make film'

death of the author is not 'miku wrote this'

I don't think you have to read either essay to grasp the basic concepts

death of the author means that once a work is complete, what the author believes it to mean is irrelevant to critical analysis of what's in the text. it means when analysing the meaning of a text you prioritise reader interpretation above author intention, and that an interpretation can hold valid meaning even if it's utterly unintentional on the part of the person who created the thing. it doesn't mean 'i can ignore that the person who made this is a bigot' - it may in fact often mean 'this piece of art holds a lot of bigoted meanings that the author probably wasn't intentionally trying to convey but did anyway, and it's worth addressing that on its own terms regardless of whether the author recognises it's there.' it's important to understand because most artists are not consciously and vocally aware of all the possible meanings of their art, and because art is communal and interpretive. and because what somebody thinks they mean, what you think somebody means, and what a text is saying to you are three entirely different things and it's important to be able to tell the difference.

male gaze is a cinematographic theory on how films construct subjectivity (ie who you identify with and who you look at). it argues that film language assumes that the watcher is a (cis straight white hegemonically normative) man, and treats men as relatable subjects and women as unknowable objects - men as people with interior lives and women as things to be looked at or interacted with but not related to. this includes sexual objectification and voyeurism, but it doesn't mean 'finding a lady sexy' or 'looking with a sexual lens', it means the ways in which visual languages strip women of interiority and encourage us to understand only men as relatable people. it's important to understand this because not all related gaze theories are sexual in nature and if you can't get a grip on male gaze beyond 'sexual imagery', you're really going to struggle with concepts of white or abled or cis subjectivities.

[thevelaryons]

The thing about pitting Rhaenys (show) and Catelyn (show & book) against each other, in their reactions to their husband’s bastards, is that it completely ignores the context of their situations.

Many men fathered bastards. Catelyn had grown up with that knowledge. It came as no surprise to her, in the first year of her marriage, to learn that Ned had fathered a child on some girl chance met on campaign. He had a man’s needs, after all, and they had spent that year apart, Ned off at war in the south while she remained safe in her father’s castle at Riverrun. Her thoughts were more of Robb, the infant at her breast, than of the husband she scarcely knew. He was welcome to whatever solace he might find between battles. And if his seed quickened, she expected he would see to the child’s needs.

He did more than that. The Starks were not like other men. Ned brought his bastard home with him, and called him “son” for all the north to see. When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence.

That cut deep. Ned would not speak of the mother, not so much as a word, but a castle has no secrets, and Catelyn heard her maids repeating tales they heard from the lips of her husband’s soldiers.

— A Game of Thrones, Catelyn II

Catelyn understands the social rules of the society she lives. She’s been taught the belief that men having affairs and fathering bastards is normal. But even in such a patriarchal society, there has to be a level of respect afforded to the wives of the men that cheat (especially if they’re noblewomen from powerful families). In Catelyn’s case, she feels slighted because her husband raised his bastard in the same household. It is considered a social insult to Catelyn that her husband did this to her.

She had come to love her husband with all her heart, but she had never found it in her to love Jon. She might have overlooked a dozen bastards for Ned’s sake, so long as they were out of sight. Jon was never out of sight, and as he grew, he looked more like Ned than any of the trueborn sons she bore him. Somehow that made it worse.

— A Game of Thrones, Catelyn II

Obviously it’s not fair to Jon that Catelyn takes out her resentment on him. Though from her POV chapters, it’s shown that she holds no negativity towards Ned’s mystery mistress despite hating Jon. It’s impossible to hate someone you don’t even know. Meanwhile, Jon is a living, breathing reminder of her husband’s infidelity. While it would be a more reasonable reaction for her to dislike Ned rather than misdirect her negative feelings towards Jon, Ned is still her lord husband. It is easier for Catelyn to hate Jon.

When it comes to Rhaenys, her husband’s mistress and bastards are relatively unknown to her, even if she is aware of their existence. They were kept far away from her. So Rhaenys is less likely to resent them. That’s why Rhaenys addresses only Corlys with barely concealed anger but Alyn doesn’t earn her scorn. The scene between her and Alyn in episode 4 appears to be the first time those two have ever interacted. Rhaenys has not had to live every day with the reminder of her husband’s betrayal. If it’s out of sight, it can be (relatively) out of her mind.

I’m sure that the way this show characterizes its female characters as more gentler/calm individuals definitely plays a part with how Rhaenys reacts here too. Which is why the viewers are led to assume Rhaenys just quietly accepted the fact of her husband cheating on her.

In the book, Corlys never dared have his bastards around whilst his wife still lived. He kept the affair so discreet that had it not been for him personally presenting the boys at the Red Sowing, no one would have assumed him to be the father. Both Addam & Alyn were staying with their mother and serving in her fleet. In the show, Alyn is in Corlys’ fleet, and therefore more likely to come under notice (and that’s exactly what happens).

Princess Rhaenys, his wife, had the fiery temperament of many Targaryens, Mushroom says, and would not have taken kindly to her lord husband fathering bastards on a girl half her age, and a shipwright’s daughter besides. Therefore his lordship had prudently ended his “shipyard trysts” with Mouse after Alyn’s birth, commanding her to keep her boys far from court. Only after the death of Princess Rhaenys did Lord Corlys at last feel able to bring his bastards safely forward.

— Fire & Blood, The Dying of the Dragons

Not only did Corlys have an affair with a young girl (coincidentally the same age Rhaenys was when she married him), but said girl is also a commoner. Rhaenys is a princess who could have been a queen. For Corlys to make his affair public would have been a huge insult to his wife, even if he never brought up the matter of his bastards. Rhaenys would have been rightfully furious at the shame her husband’s actions bring upon her. She was the first to speak up when her position as heir was usurped so that suggests she’s not the type to just turn a blind eye to anything she considers an injustice against her. Book version has a far more fiery personality than her show counterpart. Her reaction to the truth would probably be different too.

A detail in episode 4 which I did like is when Rhaenys corrected Alyn about her title. Princess not Lady. She’s asserting her position and status in that moment. Alyn serves the Lord of Driftmark so naturally his Lord’s wife would be a Lady to him. By correcting Alyn, Rhaenys places him in the position of an ignorant who does not even know the difference between the titles. Perhaps a subtle expression of classism towards another who is very much beneath her. But the glimmer of antagonism is gone as soon as it appears. Their interaction is not simply Rhaenys welcoming her husband’s bastard with open arms.

The show leaves Rhaenys’ original reaction, when she first finds out about the affair, to the imagination. So it’s difficult to say what exactly she felt in the moment. Unlike fiery tempered book!Rhaenys, the show version is more calm and collected. She is a person who seeks peaceful resolutions to problems (similar to Catelyn) so her reaction in the show makes sense for her even if it’s different from how the book version of her may have reacted. In the HOTD canon, we’re basically getting an interpretation of how Catelyn might’ve reacted to Jon had he been raised away from Winterfell.

[phntmeii]

♡ Dating Robb Stark Headcanons:

❝ How am I supposed to sit here planning a war, when you're over there looking like that? ❝

[SFW + No Gendered Terms]

☆ A/N: Absolutely re-fell in love w this lovesick man while writing this istg aaa!!! I’ll do some of the other characters from the poll from a few days ago but feel free to request other characters or specific situations with characters!

☆» Firstly, Robb is going to fall into either Friends to Lovers trope or Love at First Sight trope. I cannot see him falling into anything like an Enemies to Lovers trope because he wants someone he feels has a mutual respect for him as he would for you.

☆» He probably won't be the one to notice that he's fallen in love but his family instead. Jon would notice how Robb's eyes immediately light up and dart to you when you walk into the room. Those blue eyes of his are SPARKLING!!

☆» This would lead to playful teasing from his family in regards to you. Light nudges to Robb's side, gesturing toward you, asking you different questions (sometimes about Robb) all to embarrass him.

☆» Robb has a preference for someone who he can genuinely respect. Hardworking, hardheaded, perhaps a bit stubborn and independent. All of these qualities have him practically on his knees on sight.

☆» Speaking of his family, Catelyn would be in LOVE with you if Robb takes a liking to you. Like, Robb is her bby boy and she would love to encourage him to chase after this crush he's developed.

☆»Robb absolutely goes to her for advice on how to talk to his love interest in a way that'll get them to like him.

☆» Robb looks up to his own parents and their connection. He's always wanted to have their level of a bond and so trust and believe he is trying to be the ultimate honorable gentleman that Ned would want him to be.

☆» You'll end up noticing Robb being around more often but watching from a ways away. It's not in a creepy way but in a shy "Seven Hells... How am I meant to speak to them when I can't even approach them???"

☆» He takes things slow to not scare you off even if his feelings for you are quite big and overtaking his mind. He's always respectful of boundaries and would never dare presume how far he can take an interaction. He never wants you to feel uncomfortable around him.

☆» He takes an interest in your hobbies and interests. He thinks that it'll be easier to bond with you so he goes out of his way to pick up on whatever you like.

☆»You're an artist? Suddenly he's learning different techniques and learning how to discuss/critique artwork. You're interested in reading? He's SPEEDING through your favorite books to discuss them with you.

☆» Once in a relationship, he's an absolute sweetheart when it comes to you. I mean this man is IN LOVE and it's incredibly obvious to everyone by how his eyes look at you.

☆» Trust and believe this man is incredibly protective over you. Not only do you have The Young Wolf of the North to protect you but his actual direwolf, Grey Wind as well!

☆» Grey Wind becomes your defense when the wolf notices how much Robb cares for you. He'll often be at the foot of the bed, keeping his eyes to the door to watch for danger. He'll walk beside you at your side and watch for any suspicious behavior as well.

☆» Robb's Main Love Languages to give are: Words of Affirmation and Quality Time.

☆» Robb is a massive fan of complimenting you and tell you how much he admires you. (Big W for any praise kinks out there)

☆» Whispering sweet nothings in the mornings, complimenting your looks once you’ve dressed for the day(especially if you’re wearing typical Stark clothing if you aren’t from the North), parading how lucky he is to have you return his feelings, etc. This man does not stfu about how lovely you are.

☆» Lays his head in your lap and caresses your cheek while telling you in detail how lovely each part of your face is for him. Your eyes, your nose, your lips, your cheeks—Everything. He’s head over heels.

☆» He would want to be near you all the time and will often drag you along to show off a skill of his.

☆» Cue Jon tryharding against Robb during sparring sessions in the hopes to embarrass him in front of you bc he thinks it’s funny.

☆» Robb plans cute dates at least 1-2 a week. It wouldn’t have to be anything fancy or anything but he wants designated time to be with you.

☆» Something as simple as being in the Godswood to have quiet time with you and just talk for hours. He loses all track of time when he’s with you.

☆» Robb’s Favorite Love Languages to receive are: Quality Time and Gift Giving.

☆» Similarly to himself, he wants you to want to spend time with him. Going to see him for small visits throughout the day absolutely makes it better.

☆» He can be prone to stress as the eldest son and one day heir to Winterfell so knowing he has someone he can count on to be there means a lot.

☆» Now in terms of Gift Giving, this does NOT mean expensive gifts. I mean sporadically bringing Robb different items that you thought he would cherish.

☆» The idea that you thought about him makes his heart swell and flutter.

☆» Like present him a flower that you found because you thought it to be beautiful and he now keeps it in his room and makes sure it’s tended to so it lives for as long as possible.

☆» ESPECIALLY IF ITS SOMETHING YOU MADE?????

☆» Even if it isn’t top quality, he will cherish it forever because it’s the fact that you spent time on doing something for him that makes him so happy!!

☆» He would absolutely brag about what you made for him and tell everyone that he has the best partner for it.

⤷ divider credits: @cafekitsune

[atopvisenyashill]

i was thinking more about characters Performing Gender, but not necessarily Transgressing Gender. I wound up focusing on Ned and Sansa bc I feel like I understand them the most but-

Sansa as a hostage is imo the most obvious (bc it’s so well done) moment of someone clearly Performing Gender but not being transgressive in that performance. Which isn’t to say it’s not a complicated performance; it’s a fine line Sansa walks between weaponizing her gender to protect herself without seeming too fake. She’s trying to placate the Lannisters by playing the perfect, dedicated, air headed betrothed because it’s the only defense she has - if she outwardly rebels, she will be punished in a likely violent and/or sexual way (which isn’t even conjecture - when she says “or maybe he’ll give me yours” Joffrey has her struck with an armored hand). She’s not quite successful in being convincing but that’s because it’s a rather extreme situation; despite no one believing her, she does make herself seem meek and stupid enough that no one suspects she’s plotting to escape with Dontos until she’s well away from KL. The fact that she even has Dontos to confide in is because of Sansa’s relationship with gender! When she saves him, she covers her rebellious slip by playing up Joffrey’s intelligence & his role as King; she reaches for “tools” of her gender AND of ~proper manhood~ to save a life and herself from another beating. Her retreats into the godswood and silence are very much Sansa attempting to recharge from these draining interactions, the same way a knight would need to stop and eat and rest after a fight. She is fighting, constantly, by forcing herself to stay within the narrow confines of a specific type of gender performance as a way of shielding herself from harm.

Ned yelling at Cat is another big one, and I’ve seen the scene referred to as Ned using his patriarchal power to scare Cat, which is a great description. It feels like a Performance because Ned is putting on this terrifying Lord Stark mask in an attempt to get Catelyn to stop asking about Jon (and Lyanna). This is not how he usually acts with those he loves! When Ned is with His People, he is welcoming of questions, curiosity, emotion, even transgressive thought (to a point! the idea that Ned is a feminist because he lets Arya learn to fight is Not accurate but you can’t deny he allows significantly more flexibility wrt gender expression than most of the fathers we meet in this series. the bar is in hell tho). Yet when Cat asks him about Jon’s mother, Ned scares her so well she stops asking & still remembers the moment bitterly over a decade later. And if that snippet we see through Bran’s eyes of Ned praying that Cat will forgive him does come after she asks (like it’s suspected), it’s clear not only that this is a performance he’s putting on & weaponizing against Cat, it’s one he does not like using as a weapon against someone he is close to. After using the power his gender gives him to cause harm, he retreats to the godswood and silence to pray and rest, much like Sansa. A spiritual cleanse, the way a soldier may pray after battle, to reset and reconnect Being A Proper Man to Being A Kind Man.

I think there’s something interesting in that two of the characters most widely defined by how well they adhere to Westerosi gender norms both dislike feeling like they had to weaponize their gender. They are exhausted by the performance, because it’s a performance. This isn’t Sansa getting excited over tourneys, or Ned teaching his sons to fight; it’s toxic masculinity, it’s structural misogyny. It’s something they’re good at, excel at, and connected to something they enjoy but when it’s paired with violence, whether done by Ned or done to Sansa, it crosses over in their minds from an innate part of themselves (The Gender) to a performance necessary due to survival (The Gender Role). And that after these performances, both retreat to nature & god as a way of resting and cleansing from the experience.

[thephantomcasebook]

I'm not a book reader, but I've been intrigued by the theory that Alys Rivers uses the faces of men's true loves to hypnotize them and get into their heads. As you mentioned It's a popular idea from the books that could potentially be adapted into the show. In the show, it's suggested that Alys is 400 years old.

As you're are more familiar with the books, can you explain what Alys does there? Did she ever take on Helaena's form? I'm also curious about the Alys and Aemond relationship. Some fans, especially "Alysmond" shippers, argue that their relationship is consensual and that Aemond genuinely falls for her, even suggesting that they have a love child. However, I'm struggling to understand how a man who burns her house and spares her only to make her his bedmaid can be considered to have a consensual romance between them. Can you please help clarify this dynamic for me?

Umm ...

It's tricky, cause, there's a shit ton of theories out of and in universe about who and what Alys Rivers is.

No one really know in universe where she came from or who she is. She's just always been there. Some people think that she's Harwin and Lary's bastard sister. Other people think that she was their wet nurse. Other people can't remember a time that she wasn't at Harrenhal. She is enchanting and beautiful ... or so she seems to the men she targets.

She's tried to seduce Daemon, Criston, and Aemond in "Fire and Blood". In terms of Daemon and Criston, they rejected Alys advances, and went rushing back to their beloveds - Rhaenyra and Alicent. Criston dies shortly after rejecting Alys, in a desperate suicide rush to rescue Alicent. And Daemon dies at Harrenhal after having a confrontation with Aemond and Alys before his fatal duel with Aemond over the Gods Eye.

The book doesn't go into detail exactly about how Alys seduced Aemond or by what means she did it. But it is accounted as strange and really out of character for Aemond (in universe). After making Alys his submissive bed slave after taking Harrenhal, Aemond starts acting weird and psychotic. Then, he basically desserts the Greens and the War, leaving both Criston and Daeron high and dry. Aemond decides not to rescue Alicent and Helaena like Criston is desperately urging him to. Instead, Aemond decided to take Harrenhal for himself and basically become a sort of defacto king/warlord.

So, Criston abandons Aemond and Alys to take what men they have left to go and try and rescue Alicent. Meanwhile, Aemond and Alys begin a destructive and devastating reign of terror through the Riverlands, buring alive any Blacks in their castles and keeps. Making Daeron and Criston, basically, the last men standing for the Greens. And when Criston is killed, it all falls on Daeron as the last of the Greens. And my boy, Daeron, becomes MVP of the Dance - he just wants his mommy back!

The theory is that Alys sees Aemond in the same light as Melisandre sees Stannis and Jon Snow. There's some sort of bigger destiny or importance to Aemond's blood and legacy that Alys takes upon herself to preserve by having his son.

The most popular theory is that Alys and Aemond are the direct ancestors of Catelyn and it's through the wedding of Ned and Catelyn, the blood of Wargs and dragons, that gives Bran his ultra Three Eyed Raven powers.

There's actually no scenes of Aemond and Helaena ever interacting, despite them dying the same day, with Helaena killing herself the very evening that Aemond is killed. Also there's the strange coincidence of the fact that their two dragons die in a similar way. With Vhagar dying from a large fall and Dreamfyre dying from being pierced in the eye.

But the idea of Alys seducing men by using the faces of the women they love or taking on their attributes comes from both Daemon and Criston's interactions with her in the book, and how both were inspired to go back to Rhaenyra and Alicent quickly after rejecting her. And with Daemon's vision in 2x03, it seems to be a proven theory.

[west1rosi]

"Ned."   She   repeats   after   him,   amused   at   such   simple   name   coming   from   a   name   like   Eddard,   but   who   is   she   to   judge,   truly?   When   her   short   name   makes   it   sound   like   a   cat?   It's   then,   that   they   are   on   common   ground,   war   was   a   terrible   thing   but   they   marriage   didn't   have   to.   She   thinks   she   would   be   happy   in   the   North,   happier   perhaps   than   her   sister   on   the   Vale.   "I   would   like   to   give   you   a   son.   I   will   pray   to   the   Seven   and   your   Gods   for   him."   Perhaps   that   way   their   marriage   will   be   settle.   Give   him   an   heir   as   a   firstborn   and   from   there,   she   could   give   him   as   many   daughters   as   she   sees   fit.   A   smile   grows   wide   at   his   casual   compliment.   Maybe   he   did   not   meant   it   as   such   but   she   takes   it   as   such   anyways   and   cannot   help   but   to   blush.  

"Their   hair   would   be   such   a   difference   from   your   Stark   features.   One   or   two   with   your   eyes   would   be   best."   Catelyn   finds   she   quite   like   his   eyes   then.   Calm,   troubled   but   soothing   all   the   same.   He   might   not   share   a   wolf's   yellowish   or   blue   eyes   but   they   are   just   as   deep   as   she   imagines   those   beasts   stares   to   be.   She   finds   honesty   in   them.   "A   mighty   dynasty   that   had   been   on   the   downfall   for   a   while."   Catelyn   adds.   The   realms   are   not   fools.   Robert   Baratheon   might   be   leading   a   rebellion   against   the   throne   and   the   Targaryens   but   the   realms   had   backed   him   up   so   easily   she   wonders   how   many   had   been   waiting   for   the   opportunity   to   arise.   "Your   sister   was   disrespected   and   taken.   War   is   dangerous   but   it   is   the   right   thing   to   do.   Honor   demands   it   so."   Isn't   that   what   his   family   was   all   about?   Honor   and   duty   and   their   daughter,   their   sister,   the   girl   with   a   name   as   strong   as   her   personality,   or   so   she   heard,   was   taken   from   her   family.  

The   dangers   of   war   are   different   for   women,   indeed.   That   someone   as   strong   as   Lyanna   Stark   could   suffer   such   a   fate,   a   woman   who   was   said   to   be   wild   and   sharp,   leaves   something   akin   of   discomfort   in   her   belly.   Catelyn   knows   nothing   of   blades   as   he   speaks,   only   a   dagger   she   keeps   at   her   father's   insistence   but   she   knows   little   of   how   to   use   it   and   hopes   she   never   has   to.   Catelyn   sits,   her   hands   resting   on   her   lap,   toying   with   the   gift   he   had   given   her   and   she   ponders   on.   "I   know   you   will.   It's   more   than   more   marriages   can   hope   for."   That   much   is   true.   "My   fears   are   different.   Women   suffer   differently.   I'm   afraid   to   be   with   child   and   get   a   raven   to   say   you   would   not   return   home.   A   fatherless   son   is   a   cruel   thing."   A   widow   after   just   starting   her   marriage   life   is   a   tragedy   too,   she   thinks.   "I'm   afraid   my   brother   and   father   and   uncle   will   never   return   as   well.   That   you   will   lose   this   war   and   the   uncertain   future."   A   terrible   thing   to   think   about.   If   Robert   and   Ned   failed   this   war,   then   her   future   as   an   allied   from   a   noble   and   ancient   house   and   his   wife,   she   knows   it   will   be   grim.   

ㅤㅤㅤ❝ CATELYN, ❞ Ned repeats her name, spoken as softly as a prayer. A beautiful name for a beautiful woman. No doubt his bride-to-be is blessed in that regard. ❝ You may call me Ned, or Eddard. Or . . . whatever you wish, truly. ❞ There's a breathy laugh, light and fleeting. Catelyn is a southern lady, and he's not sure how much she would prefer to maintain formalities. Hopefully not so much, given how she would discard terms of honorable address, and he quietly thanks her within his thoughts for the gift of familiarity. Ned does not want to seem as a man who stares, but he finds his eyes drifting between the veil of flame that cascades from her head and those bright Tully eyes. She speaks of sons, and he holds his smile. Something about the thought of children allows the reality of the situation to sink in. It's a matter of duty to father sons on his bride, but it's not a duty he looks upon grimly. He'd quite like to be a father , he thinks, to have his halls filled with his own children. To hear their laughter, to hold them as babes in his arms and watch them grow. Sons would be needed to carry on the Stark name, but he wouldn't mind daughters, either. Sweet little girls to dance atop his feet, to be doted upon and cherished. He hadn't thought of the prospect of marriage nor children until recently, but now there is little else he would wish for had he not a war to win, except . . .

ㅤㅤㅤThe thought is pushed away, a flickering vision of violet choked down. What a fool he was for thinking he could have what he wanted. That for once he could honor his heart over duty. But even now, it feels cruel to think of such things, of the whispered promises he cannot keep. Cruel to Catelyn, and cruel to himself. The Lady before him deserves better than thoughts that stray. Strangers they may be for now, but that will pass, and he will be hers in heart and mind. ❝ A present for a son, or a daughter. Either way, I should hope our children take after you, ❞ Ned chuckles. It takes a moment for him to consider her question, as he would offer nothing less than sincerity. ❝ I'm terrified, Cat. ❞ Cat ? Is that name acceptable to call her this soon ? It feels natural upon his tongue nonetheless, and better to lessen the distance between them. ❝ We are young men waging war against a mad king of a mighty dynasty. Many men I had once called friend, I will meet on the battlefield. Our blood will be upon each other's blades. ❞

ㅤㅤㅤGrey eyes cast downward. He shouldn't speak such grisly tidings in front of a lady of her status. ❝ What of you? You've been set to marry a man you barely know, and much of your family will soon leave you and march to war with him. Are you afraid as well? ❞ Ned speaks again after a long breath, searching her eyes. He knows she has less choice in the matter than he does. ❝ You can speak honestly with me. I know perhaps you may not find this match ideal, but if I can swear anything of our marriage, I swear that I will be kind and good to you. ❞

[motorway-south]

using my entire ten minute break to write this but i do feel like the question of “what would jaime and cersei be like if they were each born the opposite gender?” is interesting bc cersei would literally be tywin. like she and tywin are already ruthless and cutthroat, they act emotionally, and they’re quick to justify their own wrongdoing. everything that makes cersei unique is in her interactions with the systemic barriers of her gender

but jaime is a different story, bc i feel like the character jaime would be most like is sansa, but also catelyn. sansa for the “going away inside” and romanticization of songs, but catelyn for a little more of the emotional side. jaime is brash and emotional, he makes snap judgements and decisions, and his cruelty, even in his inner monologue, is very often matched by cat. not to mention their struggles with their respective roles of mother and knight. i even feel u can draw parallels between cats reaction to agot lysa in the vale and jaime’s reaction to cersei in affc. anyway girl!jaime if boy!cersei brought home a targaryen bastard

[gendrie]

arya/gendry and ned/catelyn are not frequently considered alongside each other, but i think theres a surprising amount that they have in common as pairings. all four characters have explicit connections to one another within the story too.

obviously, arya has a relationship with both of her parents. that makes the fact that gendry has interacted with both of them all the more compelling to me. arya has a deep appreciation for her parent's marriage. she is the only stark child we see deeply value the love between ned and catelyn. it wasn't the most flashy, but it was a very successful and loving partnership between two people. especially by westeros standards.

GENDRY AND NED

Ned nodded. He decided that he liked Tobho Mott, master armorer. "If the day ever comes when Gendry would rather wield a sword than forge one, send him to me. He has the look of a warrior." (Eddard, AGOT)

when gendry met ned he was his typical outspoken, rude self, but this didnt bother ned in the slightest. by the end of the scene ned is trying to recruit gendry into his household. he promises on robert's deathbed to look out for his friends children thinking of gendry and the others. he did not get a chance to guard the bastards but arya looked out for gendry while they were together.

arya and gendry have a couple conversations about ned too. gendry isnt overly impressed but it shows a familiarity between the two. he knows her family history.

GENDRY AND CATELYN/LADY STONEHEART

"M'lady means for you to answer for your crimes." "M'lady." The wine was making her head spin. It was hard to think. "Stoneheart. Is that who you mean?" Lord Randyll had spoken of her, back at Maidenpool. "Lady Stoneheart." "Some call her that. Some call her other things. The Silent Sister. Mother Merciless. The Hangwoman." (Brienne, AFFC)

arya really wanted gendry to come home with her. she says she will tell her mother how he helped her, but gendry brushes this gesture off. he did not want to serve her family, but thats exactly what ends up happening. gendry was there when they found catelyn's body in the river and beric gave her his last life. now, he serves lady stoneheart and seems to have no issues doing so. he appears to be loyal to what remains of catelyn stark.

RIVERRUN

And one day fifteen years ago, this second father had become a brother as well, as he and Ned stood together in the sept at Riverrun to wed two sisters, the daughters of Lord Hoster Tully. (AGOT) You could have made swords at Riverrun for my brother, she thought, but what she said was, "If you want to be some stupid outlaw knight and get hanged, why should I care? I'll be at Riverrun, ransomed, with my brother." (ASOS)

ned and catelyn were married at riverrun; her childhood home and the same castle arya was trying to reach with gendry. i wouldn't rule the two of them actually getting there at some point as i think its likely the bwb will try to take riverrun in twow.

BROTHEL SCENES

“A brothel,” [Ned] said as he seized Littlefinger by the shoulder and spun him around. “You’ve brought me all this way to take me to a brothel.” “Your wife is inside,” Littlefinger said. It was the final insult. “Brandon was too kind to you,” Ned said as he slammed the small man back against a wall and shoved his dagger up under the little pointed chin beard. (AGOT) “I bet this is a brothel,” [Arya] whispered to Gendry. “You don’t even know what a brothel is.” “I do so,” she insisted. “It’s like an inn, with girls.” He was turning red again. “What are you doing here, then?” he demanded. “A brothel’s no fit place for no bloody highborn lady, everybody knows that.” […] Gendry put a heavy hand on the old man’s shoulder, and squeezed. “Leave her be.” (ASOS)

not your average scene setting for an asoiaf pairing, but both end up in brothels together. ned has one of his most aggressive outbursts when littlefinger suggests catelyn is a whore and gendry steps in to defend arya when she is mistaken for one too

MY LADY/M'LADY

Inside, Catelyn was waiting. She cried out when she saw him, ran to him, and embraced him fiercely. "My lady," Ned whispered in wonderment. (AGOT) "If you start calling me m'lady, even Hot Pie is going to notice. And you better keep on pissing the same way too." "As m'lady commands." (ACOK)

self explanatory but catelyn is ned's lady. gendry calls arya m'lady both in deference and anger.

AN OUTSIDER

He slid Ice back into its sheath. "You did not come here to tell me crib tales. I know how little you like this place. What is it, my lady?" Catelyn took her husband's hand. (AGOT)

"No," the old man said. "Northmen, they were. Savages who worship trees. They wanted the Kingslayer, they said." Arya heard him, and chewed her lip. She could feel Gendry looking at her. It made her angry and ashamed. (ASOS)

gendry is a southerner like catelyn so neither is fully comfortable with the faith of the old gods. its a cross cultural barrier both relationships share.

WEIRWOODS

Catelyn found her husband beneath the weirwood, seated on a moss-covered stone. The greatsword Ice was across his lap, and he was cleaning the blade in those waters black as night. A thousand years of humus lay thick upon the godswood floor, swallowing the sound of her feet, but the red eyes of the weirwood seemed to follow her as she came. "Ned," she called softly. He lifted his head to look at her. "Catelyn," he said. (AGOT) The next day they rode to a place called High Heart, a hill so lofty that from atop it Arya felt as though she could see half the world. Around its brow stood a ring of huge pale stumps, all that remained of a circle of once-mighty weirwoods. Arya and Gendry walked around the hill to count them. There were thirty-one, some so wide that she could have used them for a bed. (ASOS)

arya/gendry and catelyn/ned have scenes among the weirwoods or whats left of them. gendry becomes a knight of the hollow hill too.

HIS FURY

"They say your friend Robert has fathered a dozen bastards himself." "And none of them has ever been seen at court!" Ned blazed. "The Lannister woman has seen to that. How can you be so damnably cruel, Catelyn? He is only a boy. He—" His fury was on him. "That's right," he said angrily. "I'm too bloody lowborn to be kin to m'lady high." Arya was taken aback by the fury in his voice. "That's not the way I meant it." "Yes it is."

they fight! i really do think they strike a similar cord too. arya and catelyn feel comfortable arguing with them and ned and gendry do get angry but thats a normal aspect of all relationships

IN THE BUFF

So when they had finished, Ned rolled off and climbed from her bed, as he had a thousand times before. He crossed the room, pulled back the heavy tapestries, and threw open the high narrow windows one by one, letting the night air into the chamber. The wind swirled around him as he stood facing the dark, naked and empty-handed. Catelyn pulled the furs to her chin and watched him. (AGOT) For a moment she did not think he understood, but then he slid out from under the blankets. Naked, he padded across the room, shrugged into a loose roughspun tunic, and climbed down from the loft after her. (ACOK)

no comment

BEAUTIFUL

[...] Catelyn replied, watching the sword as he stroked it. She could see the rippling deep within the steel, where the metal had been folded back on itself a hundred times in the forging. Catelyn had no love for swords, but she could not deny that Ice had its own beauty. (AGOT) Then he'd go off to polish his helm. It was a beautiful helm, rounded and curved, with a slit visor and two great metal bull's horns. Arya would watch him polish the metal with an oilcloth, shining it so bright you could see the flames of the cookfire reflected in the steel. Yet he never actually put it on his head. (ACOK)

arya staring at gendry here is a solid indicator that she's developing feelings for him and the catelyn/ned scene supports that.

HONORS????

"Robert came all this way to see you, to bring you these great honors, you cannot throw them back in his face." "Honors?" Ned laughed bitterly. "In his eyes, yes," she said. "And in yours?" "And in mine," she blazed, angry now. Why couldn't he see? (AGOT) "Winterfell," she said at once. "I'd tell Mother how you helped me, and you could stay—" "Would m'lady permit? Could I shoe your horses for you, and make swords for your lordly brothers?" Sometimes he made her so angry. "You stop that!" (ACOK)

more arguing but in a distinctly old married couple sort of way. catelyn and arya are actually taking similar stances here, but ned and gendry rudely brush them off.

im not saying these were intentional on grrms part (at last not all of them) but i do think its highlights the romantic subtext between arya/gendry and that the similarities to ned/catelyn could certainly suggest some longevity to their relationship.

[amber-laughs]

Thank you so much for your answer! I'd love to hear your thoughts on their relationship before the series begins. We know that the scene they shared in agot was not reflective of their actual dynamic even if most people loooove to forget that part. How did they interact? Did they ever? How was their relationship especially when Jon was a toddler or around 7-8? Thank you for your time!

oh fun question! well let's start from the beginning, we know that Catelyn was upset to find Jon in Winterfell before her

When the wars were over at last, and Catelyn rode to Winterfell, Jon and his wet nurse had already taken up residence. That cut deep. A Game of Throne- Catelyn II

but keep in mind Catelyn didn't know Ned yet. they'd obviously met and married but she doesn't really know anything about his temperament yet and even with that she's just arrived in a new place that will be her home forever, there's no way out, so the idea of her immediately showing her displeasure with Jon or Ned feels unlikely to me because in Family, Duty, Honor fashion she would first and foremost try to make her new family work to fulfill her father's alliance and be forced to put her wounded honor to the side. we know she did eventually work up the courage to ask Ned about Ashara Dayne

The Lady Ashara Dayne, tall and fair, with haunting violet eyes. It had taken her a fortnight to marshal her courage, but finally, in bed one night, Catelyn had asked her husband the truth of it, asked him to his face. That was the only time in all their years that Ned had ever frightened her. "Never ask me about Jon," he said, cold as ice. A Game of Thrones- Catelyn II

Ned scared her so bad she never asked again and neither did the servants. Now the fandom has a pretty simplistic, whitewashed view of Ned that isn't supported in canon but I would still call this out of character for him and Catelyn does too but remember, she barely knew him at this point, so it makes sense why she completely dropped the topic of not just Ashara but probably Jon as whole for a few years. but of course we know it does come up again.

Now I personally think the real trouble would start to come in as Jon was weened and was still in Winterfell. If he no longer needed a wet-nurse there's no reason not to foster him off in classic bastard fashion and Catelyn clearly thinks so too

Whoever Jon's mother had been, Ned must have loved her fiercely, for nothing Catelyn said would persuade him to send the boy away. It was the one thing she could never forgive him. A Game of Thrones- Catelyn II

Catelyn, of her own admission, was often trying to get Ned to kick Jon out of Winterfell. now this is where I need to remind people that I LOVE Catelyn Tully Stark. I'm on her team, I'm on her side, I'd buy her Mother's Day gifts if I could. most people in this fandom are actually pretty chill about the Catelyn Jon dynamic but there are two sides that think catelyn was an evil abusive wicked witch of the west specifically out to get an infant because she just feels like being evil and another side that thinks she never did anything to him and he's a spoiled brat who should be grateful she didn't make him sleep outside and eat only dog food. both are extremely annoying.

the truth is Catelyn was cruel to Jon and yes by George RR Martin's own words she never laid hands on him and she wasn't directly berating him throughout the years because like I said Catelyn isn't evil and she doesn't enjoy cruelty but when a child says he feels guilty eating in front of you there's a problem.

Jon wondered how Lady Catelyn's sister would feel about feeding Ned Stark's bastard. As a boy, he often felt as if the lady grudged him every bite. A Dance With Dragons- Jon IV

now it's possible Jon is projecting his own insecurities on to Catelyn here except:

Catelyn had nothing against this girl, but suddenly she could not help but think of Ned's bastard on the Wall, and the thought made her angry and guilty, both at once. She struggled to find words for a reply. A Game of Thrones- Catelyn VI

Catelyn does feel guilty for the way she's treated Jon. yes making Jon feel uncomfortable in Winterfell served a purpose, making sure he knows its not his. he has no right to it. Robb does. Robb will inherit. If not Robb then Bran, if not Bran then Rickon and so on and so forth. but none the less it was fucking mean. but here's the thing, Catelyn can't change society, she's navigating the rules she's given and Ned isn't, I imagine that would send her up a wall sometimes. because as she said Ned can have all the bastards he wants and she wouldn't care but Jon has no business being there and no business being treated like a true born next to her actual true born sons

"This is Valyrian steel, my lord," he said wonderingly. His father had let him handle Ice often enough; he knew the look, the feel. A Game of Thrones- Jon VIII

why the hell is Jon being allowed to handle the Stark ancestral sword? this is so widely out of the norm for Westeros it almost feels illegal. I can completely understand why Catelyn started trying to drill into Robb's head that Jon was different from him

That morning he called it first. "I'm Lord of Winterfell!" he cried, as he had a hundred times before. Only this time, this time, Robb had answered, "You can't be Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born. My lady mother says you can't ever be the Lord of Winterfell." A Storm of Swords- Jon XII

and it's also known throughout the Winterfell that there are hostilities between Jon and Catelyn. when Robb see's Jon is upset he immediately wonders if his mother is the reason

His voice was flat and tired. The visit had taken all the strength from him. Robb knew something was wrong. "My mother …" "She was … very kind," Jon told him. A Game of Thrones- Jon II

Jon also famously has the line where he admits Catelyn has never so much as called him by his name before so on Catelyn's side the relationship is somewhere on a spectrum from non existent to hostile. on Jon's side? well we know that Jon very consciously craved a mother

He knew nothing of his mother; Eddard Stark would not talk of her. Yet he dreamed of her at times, so often that he could almost see her face. A Game of Thrones- Jon III

often felt like he had to prove himself to his father

Bastard children were born from lust and lies, men said; their nature was wanton and treacherous. Once Jon had meant to prove them wrong, to show his lord father that he could be as good and true a son as Robb. I made a botch of that.  A Storm of Swords- Jon X

and I want to be clear, I know it wasn't Catelyn's job to make Jon feel welcome in his home, Ned really dropped the ball. It's Ned's fault that Jon just assumed he'd be destitute with no prospects by the time he turned 16 and it shows in the way Jon craves father figures in his life after he leaves Winterfell. Jeor Mormont, Benjen Stark, Mance Rayder, Maester Aemon, Stannis Baratheon I mean the list goes on. The thing is though there are no older women in Jon's life. Not at the Wall and not really in Winterfell either. He and Robb don't seem to take lessons from Septa Mordane and while Old Nan certainly taught him some important stories she doesn't seem to have set a maternal presence in his life.

I'm not saying Catelyn was or should have been Jon's mother because she wasn't and it surely wasn't her job but I do think she subconsciously fills that second parental placeholder in his head next to Ned because he clearly craves one but has no other woman to fill it.

Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir. It was not Lord Eddard's face he saw floating before him, though; it was Lady Catelyn's. A Storm of Swords- Jon XII

while this isn't Jon's deciding factor the idea of upsetting her or once again being rejected by her really bothers him, so much so that he can't even go on training with his friends, he has to leave and take a walk all alone. She's also one of the deciding factors when he's deciding whether to take his lifelong vows for the Night's Watch.

By the time the moon was full again, he would be back in Winterfell with his brothers. Your half brothers, a voice inside reminded him. And Lady Stark, who will not welcome you. A Game of Thrones- Jon V

but let's be clear Jon isn't just sitting around waiting for her to hug him. he doesn't like her either.

"Lady Stark is not my mother," Jon reminded him sharply. Tyrion Lannister had been a friend to him. If Lord Eddard was killed, she would be as much to blame as the queen. A Game of Thrones- Jon VII

he blames her for Ned's death just as much as he blames Cersei which is unfair and a bit delusional but childhood resentment will do that to a 15 year old.

So what was Jon and Catelyn's relationship like? Bad. Catelyn and Jon never had a chance. they were failed by the system. women and bastards seem to have a lot in common in Westeros in the sense that their agency is greatly limited. their safety rests on the graces of whatever man has placed their claim on them and this woman and this bastard were vying for the graces of the same man and felt one couldn't have it if the other did too. which is a shame in and of itself because I think they're both better at this game than Ned was.

***Less about their pre-series relationship but Jon and Catelyn have so much in common thematically and politically speaking. I did a parallel of them if you'd like to check it out

[asongofstarkandtargaryen]

I really dislike the view that Ned Stark played favourites between his daughters or that he had a bad relationship with his eldest one because it isn't supported by the text.

Sansa has fond memories of her father. Yes, she's closer with her mother but that's because a. of her interests b. it's plot relevant for Sansa be the closest kid to Catelyn considering the characters she interacts with ( her mother's relatives and Littlefinger). Ned never thinks negatively of Sansa and he never unfavorable compares her to her younger sister. Even when he talked with Arya after the Trident incident, he simply said that the sisters should support each other ( you need her as much as she needs you), he didn't pick a side between them.

Just like Sansa is closer to her mother, Arya is closer to her father and that's again is because of her interests. Arya enjoys observing him performing his lord duties, so she spends much time around him. Sansa isn't interesting in that, so she doesn't . Again, a matter of personal interests instead of one of them having a bad relationship with their father or feel neglected by him.

[catstarkapologist]

When it comes to judging asoiaf creators based on whether I want to interact with them or not I only have two criteria really. Their opinions on Sansa and Catelyn. If they hate either one character I'm out.

[agentrouka-blog]

i always love your responses because i think you do such a good job explaining things (even though some of it is just common sense)... so i was wondering if you could read this meta? i've come across this sort of idea about sansa before in their circles, but this is the first time that i've seen them try to argue that she is somehow inherently unloveable *rolls eyes*

-Something I find really interesting is that for all Sansa craves admiration and “love” from others, she’s not especially good at making friends or inspiring supporters. When people do decide to support or “befriend” her in the story, it is always with ulterior motives—almost all of which serve themselves. This includes characters like the Hound, whose connection to Sansa is built off his own ideology concerning knighthood and gender in their social system.

Her inability to create that support system is partially due to her environments: King’s Landing and the Vale, neither of which are necessarily forgiving places. However, despite her hostage status and shamed House, Sansa is still a valuable person to befriend, even if only for ladies. She’s pretty, performs her ladyhood well, has a famous bloodline, and is tied to the very wealthy ruling family. What’s more, she’s obviously mistreated (for a portion of her time in the capital) and without much actual power. If anything, she should garner sympathy friendships, but with everything else in mind, she should attract at least some love, some support that isn’t totally disingenuous or self-serving, however minuscule. And yet even that eludes her for some reason.

The way similar characters—her siblings particularly—so easily find friends and supporters throughout the books really draws Sansa’s lack of them to the forefront. Jon, for example, finds friends in both the Night’s Watch and amongst the wildlings. Bran forms close friendships with Jojen and Meera. Arya literally makes friends in nearly every place she goes, be they high- or lowborn. Daenerys finds companions in her ladies and Missandei and gathers loyal supporters in people like Ser Barristan. Even Catelyn as Lady Stoneheart earns the support of the Brotherhood. Granted, many of these supporters operate in their devotion to specific Houses, but they’re not doing it to serve their own wants and desires, which is a stark contrast to those “supporters” who surround Sansa at various times.

All in all, I’m intrigued at the way Sansa’s desire for love—genuine or affected—evades her while many of her contemporaries, misfits and traditional characters alike, garner it quite easily. Aside from her environments, what is it about her specifically that seems to repel genuine relationships? And what does this persistent inability to gather loyal friends, companions, and supporters indicate about her future role, if there is one?-

if you can probably tell its written by an arya stan

I laughed. 😂 Anything to cling to the idea of queen Arya - or rather not!queen Sansa.

As if being a hostage of the royal family in the royal palace in the royal capital, surrounded by enemies and spies is not the entire reason Sansa is isolated. Do they even consider how much more risk is involved in even casually approaching her, than there is for anyone having a chat with "Arry" or "Nan" or "Cat"? There is nothing "partially" about it. She is a well-guarded hostage and no one safe and well-intentioned enters the perimeter of her prison, end of.

Once Sansa is in the Vale, she is still more difficult to approach by anyone than a "simple" lowborn girl, as the bastard daughter of Littlefinger (soon Lord Protector) - who takes pains to control who she interacts with and how. And still she begins to form tentative bonds to the people around her - mindful to keep her emotional distance to a degree after what happened with Margaery and Dontos.

Which highlights another crucial aspect. Arya's bonds? Generally represent her attachment to others, not the other way around. She declares Hot Pie and Gendry her pack and feels betrayed that they have their own lives and plans, she never asked them if they feel the same way and I doubt it - and yet her bond to Gendry (also on the run, no threat to her!) - is the single most genuine mutual attachment she forms after she becomes a fugitive. Do they think Yoren helped her because she's uniquely worthy and not because she is Ned's daughter? Do they think Jaqen has no ulterior motive? Or Harwin and Beric? They are kind because they can afford to be but their motives are their own ends. Do they think Lady Smallwood would have somehow withheld this same kindness from Sansa? The captain of the Titan's Daughter knows she is connected to the Faceless Men, ffs. And what possible risk is attached to the women of the Happy Port being kind to a beggar girl?

To her vast credit, Arya forms quick and genuine attachments to other people. More so than Sansa, whose situation also doesn't allow for it. But these attachments don't represent a support system and they aren't deep bonds.

This distorted representation of their ability to connect to people certainly doesn't allow for some kind of speculation how Sansa would act and be perceived in a safe environment and or in a role of political leadership.

[ride-thedragon]

I had to explain why a character having autonomy in their narrative and doing something wrong doesn't justify racism and classism.

While explaining that these concepts exist in Game of Thrones and A song of Ice and fire.

The white feminism is dark and full of terrors. George could explain the concept of Intersectional Feminism, like dictionary definition, as the first part of the winds of winter, and some of you still wouldn't get it.

Like genuinely questioning, for a second, if Elia Martell would like the idea that her kids are illegitimate after she almost died twice giving birth and endured Aerys racism and prejudice and bore the brunt of Rhaegar's prophecy.

If Nettles and Daemon slept together, why would you need that to be inherently predatory and blurred consenually. Why should Nettles have to be good and pure of heart in order for you to acknowledge that Rhaenyra was wrong for what she said.

Why do show Baela and Rhaena have to like Rhaenyra? Why is it okay to sidestep the fact that Daemon doesn't seem to care about them after Laena dies?

Why do so many of you in the fandom create a third daughter just between Daemon and Rhaenyra or project onto Visenya (dead baby) rather than using the characters we have that don't have a lot of personality attached to them in the show canon?

The idea that we are "supporting our favorite war criminals" falls flat with the double standards y'all apply to characters (majority women) you all don't like.

Not to mention the way you all go out of your way to oversexualise all Dornish women while claiming canon reason (stereotypes about an outsider group in Westeros). I've seen strange things on these apps

Weird, weird behaviour, and I'll quote Shiv Roy of all people because a lot of you don't understand what you're doing. You just think your perspective is right because it doesn't actively click as a strange or wrong way to operate in the world.

You all tend not to conceptualize women as autonomous beings in these stories unless they fit your narrative. It happens with Sansa, catelyn , Elia, Dany, Arianna, and Nettles, and because of the Hotd canon, all the Velaryon/ Targaryen women.

Even more of you can't seem to see how a victim can project and carry on the systems that oppress them because they are at least above someone morally for conforming to the standard rather than defying it. You can still root for them. (Alicent)

Some of you can't fit the idea that just maybe someone doesn't want to fix the system. They are entitled to be the exception to it. You can still root for them. (Rhaenyra)

Allow women to be characters, view them as characters, not concepts and projections and when it comes to woc in this universe, please understand that there are forms of prejudice that affect them that won't affect, for instance Cersei. There are ideas and concepts that are inherent to world building, and just because you don't see it often doesn't mean it isn't there, it just means we aren't interacting with the characters that experience it.

[rise-my-angel]

Do you have any thoughts about Jamie and Brienne vs Jamie and Cersei? Would love to hear you speak about them cause you're so well-versed in all things GOT!! ☺️☺️

DO I EVER HAVE THOUGHTS (you've made a mistake this is so many words im so sorry I love talking about Jaime Lannister).

Jaime and Cersei are so superficially codependant on each other. In reality they know very little about who the other is in small details, and their attraction is based on a massive amount of vanity because they look so similar. But at the same time, if we're looking at Jaime, he is always the worst version of himself with Cersei.

They promote the worst in each other and it shows. Because Jaime is not that vindictive with others. He is way more honest with characters hes known for far less time then his own twin sister. He is close with Tyrion and their interactions are Jaime at his most normal. He is very himself with Catelyn to the point he confesses a strange number of things to her he doesn't for anyone else. But not Cersei.

He's closed off when he's with her. He's back to being vain and destructive and vindictive. Jaime loves the idea of being with Cersei rather then Cersei herself. He is addicted to this codependant relationship based on physical attraction to the point he ruins his own life to keep it going.

But then he is seperated from her by war. And then he meets Brienne.

Jaime, is actually not yet at his lowest when they meet but he is at the worst in terms of what his relationship with Cersei represents. When he meets Brienne he is a prisoner, chained up, filthy, stinking, probably a bit septic and quite literally covered in his own shit. He is at the opposite place which he would be with Cersei when he meets Brienne. Cersei wouldn't stick around for this version of Jaime, but Brienne has oathed to. And so their story starts at Cerseis opposite.

Then it gets interesting. Brienne is verbally combative with him and does not hesitate to push him on what she disagrees with or opposes. She is actually similar to Cersei in that shes physically close to him. But wheras Cersei is in looks alone, Brienne is in size and strength. Something that clearly peaks Jaimes interest since he switches between making fun of her size to asking things like if she wants a man strong enough to be able to wrestle with her because hes strong enough. He's interested in her for the same reason of physical, but the why is completely opposite.

Cerseis physical similarity goes no deeper. Briennes physical similarlity represents that Jaime doesnt just want more then looks, he needs more then just looks. He thrives on verbally sparring with her to the point they bond without even realizing it because theyve spoken so much.

Then Jaime inadvertantly makes a sacrifice. His hand for her honour. He makes a deal to save her from being raped and in turn his hand is cut off for his audacity of thinking making deals is how the rest of the world works. Jaimes identity shatters here.

Since like his relationship to Cersei, his identity is so superficial. Without his ability to sword fight he thinks he has nothing, just like how without their physical attraction he and Cersei, have nothing. But Brienne begins to care more. Tries to pull him out of depression and doesnt give up on him.

Then Jaime does something for Brienne hes never done for Cersei. Cersei claims Jaime would've killed Robert for hurting her, but it isn't true. We know Robert has clearly been physically abusive before considering both their reactions when he slaps her indicates he has done it before but not in front of other people. But Jaime wouldve seen the marks. He knew Cersei was physically abused. And did nothing.

Then Brienne is thrown in a bear pit with a wooden sword. And Jaime with one hand, jumps in to rescue her when he already was on his way to safety. He goes back to save her and refuses to leave without her by his side.

Now Brienne in the books is younger, but I think for their relationship dynamic I think the shows version being older works better. Beacuse now Jaime is dealing with a woman similar to his sister in age. Now he has a direct comparison on what life has turned them both into and Jaime realizes that he is full of life with Brienne.

Jaime confesses about the day he murdered the Mad King to Brienne, when hes never spoken of it before. He has never told Cersei anything like that, we know. Beacuse by then, Brienne represents everything he wishes he had with Cersei but with someone whose bond with him is the opposite of superficial or vain.

Ironically, Cersei has a version of this too. Cersei watches Margaery and Loras and is seeing what she and Jaime could have been if they did not have this toxic physical relationship with each other. Margaery and Loras love each other deeply, trust each other, protect each other and work together in harmony but without any of the hangups Cersei and Jaime have.

So when Jaime comes back and hes a different man, he tries to fit into the mold of someone he used to be and it doesnt fit him anymore. Cersei knows it, and she knows she will never actually have with Jaime what she wants.

Jaimes defining moment he could never come back from, should have been pushing Bran out that window to protect his secret relationship with Cersei. But it isn't.

It's when he sacrificed everything he didnt even really have anymore to protect Brienne in the bear pit soley because he cared about her too much to turn his back on her. That was the moment Jaime did something he could never come back from.

Jaime with Cersei is at his lowest, and with Brienne is at his highest but then when he sends Brienne away to find Sansa not knowing if theyd ever see each other again, and then he leaves to settle the remaining fights in the Riverlands, and in the books, literally burns a letter from Cersei pleading for him to come back.

Jaime has had a taste of who he is with both, and now he has to go alone for a while and figure out who he is after both of them and find out what version of Jaime Lannister was closest to who he is between them. And it's Brienne hes the most himself with, since he has literally nothing to hide from her. They started at his worst and it only got better.

He has nowhere good to go with Cersei because once the illusion of physical attraction was shattered, Jaime realized there was nothing tying him to being undyingly loyal to Cersei that mattered.

Its an interesting case of Jaime and Cersei needed each other to pretend to be whole, but Jaime and Brienne are whole without each other, and therefore are still whole when they do have each other.