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twost3ps · 5 months ago

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This boy has been in the drafts for like a month

I'm feeling like I want an Adam sandwich with two slices of Morningstar brothers so you guys are going to hear me out on my LucifurxAdamxMicheal au (and I mean it in a they both share Adam in the end :3 ) In general I'm calling the ship ✨️GuitarStars✨️ boooyaaa I feel like there might be a better name for it but idk

(Also I’ve noticed there is complaint for guitarhero in the adamsapple tag. I'm tagging this post as adamsapple this once of it but post related to this with both brothers will be counted as #guitarstars.

I also completely agree with the complaints. There is a problem with the tagging so this is a very quick reminder to please tag properly!!! Ik it's not meant to be harmful bcz most guitarhero shippers are also adamsapple as well. But i will admit there has been a lot of unecessary tagging (i am guilty of this im so sorry qwq) so please be mindful!!!! Ik this post might go agaisnt that but its just this post i swear sorrryyyy)

ANYWAYS The actual au:

For now I'm calling the au- Angels on My Shoulder (I can't think of a good title rn grrr)

quick sketchs so you get the idea

General prompt:

Adam respawns as a human with all his memories. He lives a normal happy life until he turns 21 when two angels (Micheal and Lucifer) appear on his shoulders with a mission: try convince him into making certain decisions so that he ensures a spot in heaven or hell.

That doesn’t work out very well because adam hates how theyre forcing their ideals onto him one way or another. He doesnt really want to think about heaven or hell anytime soon. Heaven or hell seems like complete torture to him. The fact that he didn't like either of them before he respawned doesn't help.

A revelation happens and both brothers realize it's not gonna work on their terms so they're gonna have to earn his favor first before trying anything. One of the ways is talking it out beacuse adam had expressed several times over that, while at first it was funny, their bickering needs to die because it's getting annoying.

They talk it out. They make up. It takes a whole but they become close again. They try to earn adams favor in the meantime and between time. Everything is at peace. As time goes on though, the wooing is no longer for just adams favor, its now romantic. Both develop feelings for Adam. And since now they made up both made up they are very willing to share him.

The og goal is completely lost. Gone with the dirt and dust. And now what was once a competition to get Adam into heaven or hell has spiraled into heaven and hell trying to get into Adam. If you catch my drift.

Do they get in there?

God bless they do

(Ps they start off as small little mascots but then later grow into their normal form and an added human form. Adam Prefers the small mascots though)

My in-depth of the au that is very subject to change I just wanted to rant is under the cut o3o

So when Adam had died, he respawned onto earth. Born into a normal family and all that jazz. He lives life as normal and has comes to terms with it. He actually loves his life. He doesn’t have to walk on eggshells anymore and lives as normal. He’s not insanely good or insanely bad, he’s just a guy.

A guy who is very happy with himself. After graduating he becomes a national park ranger.

Heaven and hell both know of adams soul, but contant cant be initiated till he turns 21 (It was recognized because I wanna say 21 would be the age Adam technically was in his creation during Eden, and thats when he can process divinity without his body tweaking as if he were any other mortal. Souls grow along with age and all that drama, adams soul in eden was strong enough to stand the sheer power of a seraphims presence) both sides made it their immediate duty to guide him to their path.

Sera wanted Adam in heaven to clear her mind- to have heaven back to perfection with the original perfection creation (also to have her son back, but she's not ready to unpack that for herself.)

Lucifur wanted adam as he could punish him directly for hurting Charlie and her friends. A little tiny part of him also really wants Adam all for himself grrryrvgrvsgrs

So both heaven and hell spawn a representative guide for Adam to follow once his soul is ready to guide. Lucifur nominated himself and Sera nominated Micheal who agreed.

For some reason (probably amix of earth and god or sumn), Adam's presence nulls the powers of both angels and devils. So the first time they appear, Micheal and lucifur appear as small tiny mascots on Adam’s shoulder.

(Adam has flicked both of them away several times and they can't really do anything about it other than fly back and try again)

Both sides had the same idea and Adam connects the dots very fast on why they are here without them telling him. And he's pissed.

His normal life is now ruined.

Adam actually really hates both Lucifur and Micheal. Lucifur for obvious reasons and Micheal because he's just so nitpickey. Micheal had trained Adam in the past and that guy was brutal. Adam understood part of it was with Lucifurs falling and their brother thing and whatever but god daymn bro needed to chill. If Sera was on him like a hawk Micheal had been on him like a spy camera from space monitored by the secret service. In a way, both devalued adams emotions to some capacity so Adam hated both of them equally. Nothing Adam could do about it though because he was human.

In the beginning, both micheal and lucifur kept it really formal between them. Its strained but neither brother imposes on what the other one advises. That doesn’t stay for too long. The formalities between Lucifur and Micheal die pretty quickly. Under 2 months tops. While both are very old and very much adults, they are, first and foremost, SIBLINGS.

Both begin talking over eachother, butting in, shoving eachother. It's like pre eden all over again between the two on who is better. Most of the time they argue about the most random topics forgetting their og purpose.

After one year of enduring both of their bs, Adam feels like he has a dog and a cat rather than two otherworldly gaurdians monitoring his every move.

He doesn't complain though. After a while he's learned to tune them out. He also finds it incredibly entertaining watching the literal devil fight with the a high angel while being incredibly small. And with no powers it resorts to petty slapping. He's gotten pretty used to it....

Except when it comes to them making him choose what actions he takes.

They're always on him about everything. It sucks so much ass. Everything Adam tries to do something good, Lucifur tells him that it's stupid, that he should be more selfish and blocks Adam. He keeps on telling him that deep down adam really isnt all that, and why should he try and do good when everyone knows that hes not really that. Micheal does the same thing in reverse. When Adam does something considered bad, Micheal raves on how he'll go to hell. That Adam was made in perfection and must reach that perfection. That heaven is waiting for him and is available only if he keeps on doing good.

It makes Adam so mad when they remember what they're trying to do.

Adam doesn’t listen to either angel because after living part of his life as just a normal person, he’s come to realize he doesn’t want to think about living life wondering if he’s going to heaven or hell. Adam does not want to face eternal punishment or be in hell. He still really hates sinners, and while the blood hungry killer part of him died with his second life, he still thinks that the majority of those sinners are disgusting to say the least. But he doesn’t want to walk eggshells to be virtuous enough to enter heaven. Heaven, for all its greatness got tiring after 1000s of years. He's grown tired- already hated hell and grew to hate heaven. He doesn’t want to think about either, he doesn’t want those ideas to deter him from choosing what he wants to do. He wants to make both good and bad decisions without an angel watching over him. He wants to be able to make both good and bad decisions. He makes this very clear after a breakdown.

It becomes less of a competition over making Adam choose and more of getting into Adam’s favor after that because their first tactic is clearly not working.

So both agree that they will have to earn adams favor before making him do anything.

But in order to get adams favor both have to learn to get along because it had become one of Adam's biggest gripes. Funny at first, but the bickering and arguments got tiring after the course of a few years.

So they do attempt to make up. Genuinely. It's hard and its tough. Theres a lot there to unpack. But both jnkw that if they don't do this Adam is not going to listen to either of them because getting along has go go both ways.

And they do make up.

By the time Adam is in his early 30s, the close proximity and a lot of Adam yelling to sort it out, allowed for some slow but needed time to talk it out. They would do it infront of Adam who was the mediator, but they mostly would talk when Adam falls asleep as both watch over his dreams (creepos imo). They begin talking about their decision and their lives. Both brothers do acknowledge that they miss each other and that they have committed several wrongs with each other. And soon the fighting turns to light banter and life is good. They still try to earn adams favor but it's a lot more calmer. Everything's more calm.

Atleast that's what adam thought at first.

While bonding and stuff, they both come to the mutual agreement that they could share Adam. So they both freak it and try to woo Adam together.

And then now it's a matter of Adam freaking out because while before, both his little shoulder angels used to argue, they their bickering distracted them enough that Adam could chill and leave.

Now they're both bothering him and helping eachother try to get in adams pants. They're tag teaming him now.

It doesn't take long for their combined forces to make Adam cave.

The og goal is kinda gone. They still put their input but adams become more open it because they're less demanding and he feels like their goals are more aligned to his wants than theirs. Lucifur and Micheal also come to kinda realize that where Adam ends is where Adam ends. They're going to have to just suck it up when the time comes but they'll enjoy sharing while it lasts.

It gets pretty domestic and slice of life here. So the years following is a mix of sibling bonding and having ✨️the rizz✨️ on Adam.

Lucifur talks about hell and Charlie. Micheal talks about heaven and lucifur and his siblings. (Both Micheal and Lucifur arent permannt shoulder angels, they can actually pop away if they wanted to) Adam talks about his life and stuff.

When Adam eventually dies, his soul is neither here or there (because getting absolutely boned by twin morningstars does not make you virtuous or sinful it just makes you a bad bitch) his soul spawns in limbo. He’s deprived from salvation but doesn’t endure the horrors of hell. It’s basically a decent sided garden with a basic house in the middle where the garden ends is white space. On opposite ends of the garden are two doors, one goes to hell and the other to heaven. Turns out, the doors are connected to Micheal and Lucifer’s homes, but only appeared in them once Adam died. He’s allowed outside limbo into heaven or hell of his choosing for a limited amount of time and visites Micheal and Lucifer when he can. On the flip side Micheal and Lucifer can freely walk in and out of the place. I don’t want Adam to be lonely once he enters limbo so Cain and Abel are there because they died before heaven was ready and when he’ll just started.

So that’s pretty much it :3 kinda

incomplete but doesn't have everything I wanna say

Also

I will reiterate what I said at the beginning. I love you my guitarhero ppl but they are right in the tagging. It comes from a place of love so just be mindful!! Also, this is from me, sometimes the adamsapple vs guitarhero thing gets repetitive. It's a very common post ive seen. And I mean in general not just leaking into the adamsapple tag. That might just be me, but I do see it pretty often. Love it but that with the tagging does get a bit old. Really, the problem is a mix of incorrect tagging and the same trope. There's a lot more to the ship, especially with Micheal being free reign rn, so there is a lot of opportunity to show their relationship besides comparing it to Adamsapple.

I feel like somone who ships guitarhero also had to say something so yeyeye

Again, no offense to anyone guitarhero isbmy love but just please be mindful guys o3o

If you read all that thank you lol

#hazbin hotel adam #hazbin hotel #guitarhero #adamsapple #michael x adam #adam x lucifer #hazbin hotel michael #adam hazbin hotel #lucifer hazbin hotel #my au #guitarstars #if i miss tag guys pls dont be afraid to tell me #even old posts

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synnamon-hearts · 15 days ago

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I wonder if you have any hcs for poly! Climbing class x Reader like Josh and Chris are both fine asl and can't decide

𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭

Heyyy, this is interesting! I've never been a huge climbing class shipper but I once read a Josh x reader x Chirs fic and it stuck with me every since. 😂 So, with that, let's get started on these headcanons!

NSFW and a bit of a plot down below!

𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭

So let's say you have known Josh and Chris for quite some time and have always been so close to them. They are both super charming, goofy, loving, and also pretty cute. So of course you would gain a crush on both of them over time.

And like all these tropes go, Josh and Chris also end up falling down the little rabbit hole that is feelings for your good friend. Expectedly, this causes some issues between the boys. When you laugh at one of their jokes or look at one of them a certain way, the other gets jealous.

It isn't until one drunken night at a party does the truth come out, when Chris nearly clocks Josh for kissing you! Both the kiss and the small fight between the two was heavily unexpected and kind of scary. Once Mike and Matt broke up the fight, you pull Josh and Chris into a nearby bedroom to talk.

The boys finally confess their long-lasting feelings for you and as reluctant as you are, you confess your feelings for both of them as well. Thank God for the liquid courage you drank before coming in here! But this leaves a dilemma. What now? You would hate to just choose one and hurt the other. And how would you even choose? They are both so special for you.

After voicing your concerns to the boys, Josh and Chris begin to think for a solution in the few minutes of silence that follow your worrisome confessions. But then, seemingly at the same time, Josh and Chris both get an idea that makes them smile. After sharing a knowing look between each other, they give you a proposal. You could be their girlfriend.

The suggestion shocks you. A relationship with the two of them? Could end messy, but could also end up to be a beautiful thing. So with tears in your eyes, you accept their offer, sealing the deal with a kiss on both of their lips.

The thought of having your first time with the boys that night lingers, but it doesn't happen. No, you all agree that it is better to give each other a chance to adjust to this new lifestyle before making that big of a commitment. That comes 5 months later.

After many date nights of going to the movies, amusement parks, and other fun stuff, you and the boys decide that you are all finally ready for that special night you have all been anticipating. It takes place in Josh's bedroom, who has the biggest bed out of all three of you. It begins slow, a bit of making out with one while the other kisses your neck and feels you up, and then vice versa. This continues on until the clothes come off.

Chris is the shy one of the two, there is no doubt in that. But even a bit of insecurity glimmers in Josh's eyes when he reaches down to undo his belt. Not that either of them needed to be though. They both have amazing bodies, Josh having a bit more meat and muscle while Chris is a tiny bit skinnier but still so appealing to the eyes. They are both fairly average, Josh being a tiny bit longer by an inch and Chris being just a little more thicker. And oh man, when they finally enter you, it feels like heaven.

They are both careful not to hurt you, both taking turns while the other jacks off while watching to keep himself satisfied until his turn is up. It's definitely a special night to remember. Every time you are with them naked and in bed or even in a shower or a car, it feels so right and perfect. They love it when you lay on your back and take one of them down below while sucking the other off. It's such a hot sight for the two guys.

It doesn't take long for either of you to realize the love you all share for one another, and that's what makes this interesting relationship work so well. There are ups and downs but the ups are just so beautiful that the downs do not matter. The others may think you are crazy, and they are right; you are crazy in love with these two dorks that mean the world to you.

𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭~𖹭

#until dawn #until dawn josh #josh washington #josh washington x reader #josh washington smut #until dawn chris #chris hartley #chris hartley x reader #chris hartley smut #josh washington x reader x chris hartley #synnysheadcanons

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bicheetopuff · 2 months ago

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I just saw the worst takes about bnha’s ending on Instagram (three days ago now, as of posting this). So, today we’re gonna talk about Izuocha, shonen homoeroticism, and fandom… not in that order though…

I: Fandom

Fandom culture for all media has basically always been a war zone that you have to actively avoid, usually with two defining sides: people who try to enjoy media the way they want to enjoy it, and the people who say that everyone is wrong and attack others who they don’t agree with. There are shades of gray on both sides, but in general this is usually the case. It’s never been “‘alphabet mafia’ vs ‘normal’” or “fanon vs canon” or “right vs wrong”… I almost always see people having fun being attacked unwarranted (I am not saying that people being legitimately problematic shouldn’t be called out, pls don’t get me wrong. I’m talking about innocent fun!). And I’m not just talking about dudebros attacking shippers, I’ve seen a lot of shippers attack non-shippers/other shippers of a different ship, and it’s almost always people just saying “you’re wrong, I’m right, and your take ruins this media piece of media for everyone else.” That being said, I wanna talk about the highlighted parts of these comments, okay? But first I need to explain the video that these comments were on.

It was a video by @/d_rich7 on Instagram, a big anime creator, talking about this tweet:

To summarize the video, he went on to say that he’s not surprised because bnha has the worst shipping community since Naruto and how Horikoshi probably felt forced into not confirming any ships because of “threats and hate mail” that he got from his fandom. I’ll come back to that but first I’ll talk about some of the comments:

“At least, they can say they weren’t the reason for the downfall of their anime.”

I've seen this take from different parts of the fandom, whether it was in regard to ships, todofam, or the villains. Just because the narrative of a story ends up matching the theories of people you disagree with, doesn't mean the story is going through a downfall. Just accept that you were wrong and move on. It is okay to not like certain aspects of the story and it's okay to discuss and criticize it, but pinning the blame on people who just happened to be right, no matter how much you hate it, is not okay.

“People need to stop demanding the literal CREATOR of a series to do things how they want it done…They to learn it’s not their story to tell…”

“…like I don’t get how people who have no impact on the writing of a story get mad because the CREATORS don’t wanna use their personal ideas.”

“…from now on imma blame the fandom for fucking up the anime/manga, we could’ve had a better ending if it wasn’t for them…”

Outside of the context, I actually agree with the sentiment that fans shouldn't feel so entitled that they think they have any control over the media they're consuming. But, the commenters don't realize that they're doing the exact thing that they’re talking about. They're convinced that the queer shipping community is the reason the creator decided not to confirm any relationship and are pissed off that the ship they were rooting for, didn't happen. Why are they exempt from this rule? Because straight ships are supposed to happen and queer ships aren't? Because the boy is supposed to win the girl at the end in order to develop a good shonen? I'll go into the misogynistic implications of that later.

Other than that, I have seen a lot of people on tumblr get mad about other things, like before, regarding to the villains and todofam drama to the point that they started insulting Hori. Like I said, it's okay to be mad. Being mad about something doesn't make you a bad person but it was never our story to tell. Criticism and hate, are two different things and come off very differently.

“MHA’s fandom is filled to the brim with toxic, no shower taking, furry loving, lgbtq idiots…”

Honestly I added this one because he's right. We're here, we're queer, and we're idiots in the best way possible. However, I think this also says the quiet part out loud when it comes to the hatred towards bnha and it's fandom.

Shipping communities in other fandoms don't get anywhere near as harassed as often as the shipping communities in the bnha fandom despite not being much different. The difference is, a lot of us identify as and are recognized as queer and Hori himself even recognized that the LGBT community especially took a liking to his manga. But, in other fandoms, it's only okay to consider queer ships if they're recognized by the cishet audience.

Most people in the aot fandom don't have an issue with eremin because it was something recognized and memed by straight men, even if it was mostly as a joke. The kny fandom doesn't care about inotan because it was also recognized and memed by straight men. Narusasu doesn't get much hate anymore because the straight men of their fandom also started to recognize the characters weird obsession with each other and it became more difficult to ignore the ship since there was literally multiple accidental kiss scenes--one of the few times where the source material actively encourages shipping. I can keep going too.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, non-shonen animes with majority cishet women as their audience, no one bats an eye at their ships either, because there's not enough men in their communities to tell them they should feel ashamed for their fanon content and their words hold no weight… and there’s a lot less queer people in those fandoms. You see the trend, right? It's almost like queer shipping is perfectly okay and mostly accepted as long as the community is either majority cishet men, or those men grant permission/approval for the specific ships or the piece of media wasn’t “meant for men.” Otherwise, it's seen as gross and cringe.

There was one other community that was kind of similar to bnha in a sense that it was mostly consumed by queer people and cishet men, where there was a lot of discourse on whether the two main characters were queer or not… which is the Buddy Daddies fandom. When the show was airing, those two sides that I talked about earlier were pretty apparent, with people having heated arguments about whether there were queer undertones or not. The cishet men of the fandom didn't give their approval to ship Rei and Kazuki, so it became an issue. Same with JJK now, more so with itafushi though. SatoSugu was given a somewhat stamp of approval but itafushi is still seen as taboo.

However, for some reason, every queer ship and character (even if it's canon) in bnha is seen as something shameful to recognize which I think is very telling considering how large the queer and disabled part of the fandom is. Minorities are being punished for relating to a manga with discrimination as one of it's core themes. Do what you want with that...

“…hate-mail just pushed him over the edge so he just scrapped everything just as punishment to spite them…”

This kind of references rumors from a few years ago about the shipping community sending hate mail and death threats towards Horikoshi and everyone just running with it without doing their research.

Horikoshi did receive death threats but it was about Dr.Garaki's original name which you can read about here. It was mostly the eastern side of the fandom being aggressive, even going as far as posting videos of them burning the volume where Garaki's name was revealed which isn't okay. However, everyone blamed it on the western shipping community... for whatever reason...

There was another instance where people in the western fandom started sending Horikoshi death threats on his twitter because of a chapter about Endeavor getting attacked by Dabi and an Nomu and the Todo family being worried about him, people claiming that Hori "deserved to die" for romanticizing and glorifying abuse (when that wasn't at all the case, I'm genuinely confused on how they interpreted that...). This came out six years ago but somehow is still narrowed down to the queer community and women being toxic... like what? Do you see my point now of it feeling like we need to be granted permission to do certain things in fandom if we don't want to be punished?

Also who was Hori punishing by not confirming any ships? If anything, I’ve seen most shippers appreciative than not…

II: Ochako Uraraka and her relationship with Izuku Midoriya

Back to that point about misogyny that I mentioned earlier...

"...I would have lowkey wish we got to see deku and ochaco end up together since their relationship was hinted from the beginning..."

Quick warning... this is gonna be a long point.

Yes, they were attracted to each other at the beginning, no one is denying that. No one is denying Ochako’s crush either. Izuku’s nervous around her for the first like 50-ish chapters because he's still used to having friends (especially a girl. If you think about it, if his childhood friends were the only friends he had ever had before getting shunned by his community, then he had never had a girl as a friend before... ever) but their relationship eventually mellows out into a normal friendship. Given Ochako and Toga's arc, I don't think Izuocha was ever destined to end romantically.

Toga was desperate to be loved by someone who accepted her for who she was while Ochako was desperate to be able to show love to someone who she truly admired. Ochako wanted to be like Deku and tried for a while until she realized that she couldn’t and shouldn’t want to be like Deku. She thinks he’s amazing but she realizes that she can’t strive to be like him because she’s already like him but wants to change.

(this is kind of off topic but I just want to point out what Ochako said about Toga being sad about not being able to totally become Jin. Correct me if I'm remembering wrong but, Toga was only able to ever transform into Ochako completely, quirk and all. I think there's an analogy there, where her being able to be just like someone possibly means she's in love with them but she convinces herself that she loves everyone equally. I think it's supposed to be saying that "even though you can't be him completely, doesn't mean you don't love him, you just don't love him in the way you thought you did" and I think Ochako realizes that because she possibly had the same realization with Izuku. Becoming him didn't work out for her because she didn't love him the way others told her she did... I guess it wasn't off topic... oh well.)

The highlighted parts can apply to Ochako too if you replace “bloodlust” with “envy”. She suffered the same issue that Toga did with other people telling her how and who to love which made her feel like she was supposed to be jealous.

She didn't like these feelings of jealousy, so she began to unintentionally be like Deku and hide them. I don't think she ever had an issue with loving Deku but she had an issue with the way she convinced herself of how she loved Deku made her feel. It made her feel like she was hiding something because I think she felt conflicted for not loving him the way everyone expected her to. All the way up to her final fight with Toga, we were only getting intel about her crush from other characters. Not her.

There's a lot of Mina just telling her what her feelings are despite Mina canonically not knowing much about love. Her crush has always been projected onto her which is why she's able to relate to Toga so well and wants to be more like her since Toga is able to live as herself so comfortably and broke away from conformity and what's expected of her.

Ochako's crush is only there because it's expected to be and her arc is meant to prove that she can be more than just the MCs love interest. Ochako's projected crush is Horikoshi trying to prove a point about basic shonen tropes which he's done time and time again throughout the story. SHE WANTS TO LIVE AND LOVE HOW SHE PLEASES WITHOUT SOCIETY TELLING HER HOW TO JUST LIKE TOGA WAS ABLE TO DO! I WILL KEEP SAYING IT UNTIL MY THROAT IS RAW AND DUDEBROS BEGIN TO FINALLY UNDERSTAND AND NOT VIEW FEMALE CHARACTERS AS NOTHING MORE THAN EYE CANDY FOR THE MALE CHARACTERS!!!

In the epilogue. she hides her feelings with a smile because she doesn't want to worry anyone (sound familiar?) so it only makes sense that it was Deku who pushed her to let out her feelings despite not practicing what he preaches. So, she embraced her inner Himiko and let out her feelings with her whole face. Those feeling just weren't for Deku... and they shouldn't have to be.

I genuinely feel like (especially with the way dudebros hate queer ships in this fandom) if Ochako was a boy, her arc wouldn't have been so widely misinterpreted. Because if he had talked about how amazing Izuku was and Mina came in and still said "It's love!" most fans would've taken it as a joke and/or even going as far as pointing out that the crush wasn't real because he didn't actually admit to it and it was projected onto him by other characters. But, the world ain't ready for that conversation.

"...I saw it as the fandom tryn to force their ships into the story 100% ruining key moments..."

I mainly added this quote because I thought it was so absurd. How do you see class-a coming to support Ochako as "omg it's the fandom forcing their agenda and controlling Hori through mind control to force their ships into the story and ruin this key moment,"??? Like, is it really so unthinkable that Horikoshi can have creative freedom outside the norm of treating girl characters as a trophy for the MC? You expected Izuku to marry her on the spot while she's having a mental breakdown? It's just... anyways...

III: Old-Gen Shonen Homoeroticism and it's Relation with Internalized Misogyny and how New-Gen is Changing That

The Shonen genre - especially old gen - is notorious for it's accidental misogyny, queerphobia, and racism. It got to the point where it's just kind of expected at this point.

The main one is usually misogyny. A lot of shonen mangaka like to write women as nothing more than eye candy and when they are actually given a personality and power, their character arcs are suddenly ignored/neglected and turned back into eye candy. Take Tsunade and Nezuko for example. We're told that they're important and powerful and yet they rarely do anything and almost never get important speaking lines and when we get to see them in action, the author makes sure to highlight certain parts of their bodies. Nezuko I think is an especially obvious one, being literally muzzled for most of the story, and when she powers up, she grows up and is suddenly given huge boobs...

Almost every shonen girls' character arcs revolves around a man and if not, then their existence is for the sake of a male character. I will say, I havent watched much shonen because of this aspect that's always apparent, but almost every older shonen I've watched, read, or seen other people talk about, it rears its ugly head at least once.

Because of that, most love interests weren’t given enough personality to actually form a meaningful relationship with the MC that the audience - especially female and queer audiences - can connect to. More often than not, it’s “I like her cuz she’s pretty” or “I like her cuz she likes me” and it’s irritating. And since these relationships are so shallow, authors are forced to create an interesting bond between the MC and a different character which usually ends up being the deuteragonist who is usually another boy more often than not. And boys in media written “for boys” are almost never neglected the way a girl would be, which is a sad truth.

These relationships almost always end up feeling like they’re passed the point of friendship and because of that, a lot of women and queer people end up shipping them instead of the canon love interest. Because their relationship being romantic actually makes sense most of the time.

BakuDeku, Eremin, KilluaGon, NaruSasu, ItaFushi, SatoSugu, IsaBachi, HideKan, GenoSai, LawLight, the list can go on for fucking ever.

However, in bnha and BakuDeku’s case, especially when the “canon” relationship with the “canon” love interest wasn’t really developed at all, and we never got a hint from Deku that he liked her, I don’t think this homoeroticism wasn’t intentional. Like with a lot of new-gen, there wasn’t really blatant misogyny towards the “love interest” present to explain away the closeness between the two male leads.

All of the roles a love interest would usually have, were given to Katsuki. He was damseled for Deku to save, he was Deku’s biggest cheerleader, he risked his life to save Deku, he died in Izuku’s honor, he showed up for Izuku when no one else thought to, he showed up to his hospital room and cried over the condition he was in, and then he devoted nearly a decade of his life trying to bring Izuku’s dream back into fruition… He cares so fucking much and Izuku cares right back. And no one can convince me that it was accidentally gay, because Horikoshi literally felt the need to tell AND remind us that Katsuki doesn’t like girls. Plus, like I said before, all of that was done without neglecting Uraraka’s character arc.

But even though all of that is in text, I think shonen bros just expect it while also expecting the main girl and boy to be together… because that’s how it always used to be. It wasn’t until new-gen - starting with mha - started to purposely parody dated shonen tropes and twisting them into their own stories that shonen bros began to feel threatened by queer ships. Because they know that there’s actually a chance of them happening now, and I feel like IzuOcha not being canonized is the beginning of a new trend. And misogynistic anime fans already hate it.

Conclusion - TLDR

uh idk what to say here.

In conclusion, fandom culture kinda sucks because of unexpected reasons, Ochako’s character arc is ignored for the sake of men wanting her to be Izuku’s prize and it’s irritating as fuck, and I think previously accidental homoeroticism in old-gen shonen is becoming purposeful in new-gen shonen as new-gen slowly becomes more progressive and less misogynistic. Oh and bkdk canon ig (I don’t think I’ve ever said that before, strangely enough…)

#also I’m not saying anyone is a bad person for shipping izuocha #but if you’re seething over the fact that they didn’t become canon then you’re no better than the other shippers you talk shit about #it’s not your story to tell #bakudeku #bnha #bkdk #bakugou katsuki #midoriya izuku #togaocha #togachako #toga himiko #uraraka ochako #puff speaks #bnha meta #fandom critical #bnha spoilers #this is really just a rant/ramble #ignore me #long post

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adh-james-version · 3 months ago

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Why have I been seeing so much Regulus, Barty, Evan, and Jegulus hate? And hate on every James ship that ISNT jily?

To all the older people in the fandom that are hating on the new ships, and characterization: This is NOT the same fandom it was 10 or so years ago!!

#1 - Fandoms evolve!

Everything you don’t like isn’t racist, everything you don’t like isn’t facsist, everything you don’t like isn’t fetishizing, everything you don’t like isn’t misogynistic, everything you don’t like isn’t destroying the fandom, shipping James with someone else isn’t anti-Lily, personality head cannons that don’t perfectly align with yours aren’t gonna bring the fandom to its knees.

Every fandom changes as people leave, join, create, write, draw, etc. So when I started seeing people hate so extremely on certain characters, ships, and headcanons, to the point that they are willing to tell someone to off themselves and/or call people stupid/racist/facsist ect. It took me by surprise because not likening something and talking about it or keeping it to yourself is different than telling someone they are misogynistic for liking a mlm James ship over Jily.

#2 - Hypocrisy Regarding Deatheaters

One thing that I see a lot of is people hating on is the fact that canonical deatheaters like Regulus, Evan, and Barty got revamped or “babygirled”. My first point here is that the same people who believe that are also Pro-Snape. While there is nothing wrong with being Pro-Snape, you can’t be Pro-Snape but Anti-Regulus. Both of them defected from the death eaters! They both laid down their lives to try and help! Even if the impact wasn’t the same the want to be on the right side was. You can definitely not like the personality that a lot of the fandom has given him, but you can’t hate him merely on principle without kinda looking like a hypocrite.

Now onto Evan and Barty: yes they were terrible adults and did horrible things, BUT, we don’t know them as school students. That’s why the fandom took them and fleshed them out how they wanted to, they were a virtually blank slate. That’s why many people like the headcanon of them being forced by their families into getting the mark. We don’t know what truly happened so we took some artistic liberties. Again the same sentiment about Snape from earlier can apply: you can’t hate Evan and Barty on principle when in canon (because most people making this argument care religiously about canon) Snape took the dark mark willingly and again canonically we don’t know why Barty and Evan took the mark.

#3 - The Whole Jily Thing

Okay, look. Liking a James ship that’s not Jily, not a big deal. Liking Jily and not liking other James ships, not a big deal. Not liking any of the James ships, not a big deal. Liking some, one, or none of the first two options, not a big deal. Calling someone misogynistic for liking Jegulus or any other James mlm ship, however, is odd. Saying all people fetishize mlm just because they like an mlm James ship over Jily, is odd. That’s the equivalent of someone who ships Jily over an mlm James ship being called homophobic.

This really ties back to points 1 and 2, the fandom evolved and more ships were added. And calling someone a misogynist for not shipping Jily but shipping Jegulus or another mlm ship when in reality they could be the biggest feminist on the planet but just not a Jily shipper.

#4 - Personally

They’re ships, characters, and headcanons that I really don’t like/hate but you don’t see me saying that the ship is going to end the fandom or that it is fetishizing the characters?

For example, I don’t like Snape (as a person, no knock to his his accomplishments) AT ALL, but I don’t think the people who do are racist! I don’t really like the trans ftm Remus headcannon, but I don’t think all the people who do are fetishizing the trans community. I like the Mary x Pandora x Lily ship but I don’t think the people who don’t are anti polyamory!

#5 - Conclusion

Older members of the fandom and people who have been in the fandom a long time really need to calm down a little bit.

And for the people who say things along the lines of “what about canon” and “it can’t severely affect canon”

The EXISTENCE of this fandom goes against canon! You ship wolfstar and nobleflower but you “care about canon”?!?

Okay that’s it.

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babybells123 · 6 months ago

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Regarding the original outline + some thoughts on Jon & Sansa…

This is a long one. Buckle up.

If there is one thing I have picked up on in the ASOIAF fandom, it’s the knee-jerk negative reaction towards any theory/parallel/connection between Jon and Sansa. This was exacerbated by the show, of course but even now - five years later, there is an insane amount of vitriol that my brain is unable to comprehend. And here’s the rub; the infamous 1993 outline is the irony of it all.

In a fandom that is a-okay with *certain* incest ships (r.e D@enerys x Jon, D@emon x Rh@enyra, Jon x Aria), as well as blatantly pedophilic ships (Sansa x S@ndor, Sansa x Littlefinger, Sansa x Tyrio*), how is Jon x Sansa the worst of them all? I’m going to pin it down to audience engagement with the show, particularly around the later seasons when Jon + Sansa reunite and people began to ‘ship’ them. So many believe that is how the ship took off, and thus it is mere crack - but there are posts tracking back to 2012/2013 theorising the possibility of Jon x Sansa. Was it spurred by the show? Certainly! But it does not take away from the fact that people were making valid arguments and essays before the general fandom was even comprehending a Jon and Sansa reunion on screen. And people were open to discussing/debating it with general civility (a far cry from today).

I’m 90% certain people weren’t criticising those who began to believe in Jon x Aria when the outline was leaked…(though there were most definitely shippers before). But we never see the same level of vitriol towards Jon x Aria shippers, which is strange.

In any case, let’s talk about said outline, some of the key points - and how I believe GRRM made the switch from Jon x Aria to Jon x Sansa. I’ll be drawing from GRRM’s past works, interviews, art, and his personal life - as well as other potential literary influences. I'll be linking metas along the way, but without further ado - let's go.

In October 1993, GRRM wrote a pitch outline for a publishing company. It was three pages long and conveyed alongside the first thirteen chapters of AGOT (170 pages). The three paged letter was leaked on twitter in February 2014, though there were multiple aspects parts blacked out. Keep in mind though, this may not be the *only* outline that exists. There are multiple outlines that have never been publicly released (and will likely remain that way).

But let’s just focus on the 1993 outline, since we’re privy to the details. The thirteen chapters attached to the outline did *not* yet have a Sansa POV, and that’s because in this outline, she wasn’t listed as a key character.

The key characters were; Bran, Jon, Tyrion, D@enerys, and Aria.

The first thirteen chapters were; Prologue; Bran I, Catelyn I, D@enerys I, Eddard I, Jon I, Catelyn II, Aria I, Bran II, Tyrion I, Jon II, D@enerys II, Eddard II, Tyrion II.

I’ve seen people claim that Sansa isn’t an important character since she wasn’t listed as a key character, but they conveniently leave out the fact that a) her chapters were not yet written, b)she was given an entirely different more passive storyline in this outline, c) she dies, d) this was far far before GRRM fleshed out his characters entirely - Sansa took on a life of her own and she became her own solid complex character with an arc in 4 out of 5 of the books; 25 chapters.

In fact, since the books have been published GRRM has regarded Sansa and the Starks as a main character as well;

Collider: In creating this world, did you start out with one family and then branch off into the rest of the world?

GRRM: Well, the Starks are certainly the centre of the story, when it begins. It all begins at Winterfell, with occasional cuts to Daenerys across the ocean, because there was no way I could get her into Winterfell. But, we bring all the characters together at Winterfell, and they’re all there for a while before they start to go their separate ways ... .But, the Starks are the centre of the book and, to a lesser extent, the Lannisters. They are still the major players.

Collider: When you went into this, did you intentionally take the children, put them in an adult setting and force them to be in very adult and complex situations?

GRRM: Yeah, the children were always at the heart of this. The Stark children, in particular, were always very central. Bran is the first viewpoint character that we meet, and then we meet Jon and Sansa and Arya and the rest of them. It was always my intention to do that.”

Collider report.

May 2016 - Balticon.

(…) George said he was “pissed” that the outline was posted in the office building and that someone took photos and shared them. He said it was a letter for him and the publisher only. He was very firm when telling this and it showed on his face.

He then said that he is not good with writing outlines, making book deadlines, and that often in outlines he was “making shit up”, and “characters changed along the way”.

He went straight from talking about the references in the actual books, to the “differences” in the outline from then to now. He did say that he still knows who sits the iron throne and the end game of the main 5, but also included Sansa, but did not give any details (for obvious reasons).

[question if he is still going with the 1991 ending]

“Yes, I mean, I did partly joke when I said I don’t know where I was going. I know the broad strokes, and I’ve known the broad strokes since 1991. I know who’s going to be on the Iron Throne. I know who’s gonna win some of the battles, I know the major characters, who’s gonna die and how they’re gonna die, and who’s gonna get married and all that. The major characters.

….

“So a lot of the minor characters I’m still discovering along the way. But the mains-”

[question if he knows Arya’s and Jon’s fates]

“Tyrion, Arya, Jon, Sansa, you know, all of the Stark kids, and the major Lannisters, yeah.”

Balticon report:

“Ah, how innocent I was… little did that guy in the picture imagine that he would be spending most of the next two decades in the Seven Kingdoms of Westeros with Tyrion, Daenerys, Arya, Sansa, Jon Snow, Bran, and all the rest.”

GRRM's live journal:

So Sansa has clearly developed into an important character from GRRM’s words, and the key-characters argument can cease, because It’s very tiring to dispel that when the characters and story took on a life of its own. (I mean, Jaime was meant to remain a villain, but he was clearly given somewhat of a redemption arc in the main series).

I paraphrased what was written here for this whole section, so go check out the longer post!

The Aria in the original outline:

*NOTE: I am blacking out her actual names in case the wrong people find this post. None of this anti her, please keep that in mind.*

Five central characters will make it through all three volumes, [...] The five key players are Tyrion Lannister, D@enerys Targaryen, and three of the children of Winterfell, Aria, Bran, and the bastard Jon Snow.

Joffrey will not be sympathetic and Ned [what appears to say] will be accused of treason, but before he is taken he will help his wife and his daughter Aria escape back to Winterfell.

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

When Winterfell burns, Catelyn Stark will be forced to flee north with her son Bran and her daughter Aria. Wounded by Lannister riders, they will seek refuge at the Wall, but the men of the Night's Watch give up their families when they take the black, and Jon and Benjen will not be able to help, to Jon's anguish. It will lead to a bitter estrangement between Jon and Bran.

Aria will be more forgiving ... until she realises, with terror, that she has fallen in love with Jon, who is not only her half-brother but a man of the Night's Watch, sworn to celibacy. Their passion will continue to torment Jon and Aria throughout the trilogy, until the secret of Jon's true parentage is finally revealed in the last book.

Abandoned by the Night's Watch, Catelyn and her children will find their only hope of safety lies even further north, beyond the Wall, where they fall into the hands of Mance Rayder, the King-beyond-the-Wall, and get a dreadful glimpse of the inhuman others as they attack the wilding encampment. Bran's magic, Aria's sword Needle, and the savagery of their direwolves will help them survive, but their mother Catelyn will die at the hands of the others.

Exiled, Tyrion will change sides, making common cause with the surviving Starks to bring his brother down, and falling helplessly in love with Aria Stark while he's at it. His passion is, alas, unreciprocated, but no less intense for that, and it will lead to a deadly rivalry between Tyrion and Jon Snow

Observations:

Exactly how old is Aria? Is she a warrior princess who cries at songs like her aunt? Does she enjoy/yearn for romance? Is she a stunningly beautiful maiden rivalling that of Cersei? How close were she and Jon? Did they have a good sibling relationship? Or were they distant? Does she look physically different to Jon? Does she have red hair?

The Sansa of the Original Outline:

‘Each of the contending families will learn it has a member of dubious loyalty in its midst. Sansa Stark, wed to Joffrey Baratheon, will bear him a son, the heir to the throne, and when the crunch comes she will choose her husband and child over her parents and siblings, a choice she will later bitterly rue.’

Tyrion Lannister, meanwhile, will befriend both Sansa and her sister Aria, while growing more and more disenchanted with his own family.

Jaime Lannister will follow Joffrey on the throne of the Seven Kingdoms, by the simple expedient of killing everyone ahead of him in the line of succession and blaming his brother Tyrion for the murders.

More observations:

How old is Sansa? Is she 16? 17? She’s conveyed as a less important character in this outline - why? Queen of the Seven Kingdoms? She dies? Jaime kills her? What is her relationship with Aria like? Are/were they close? Or was Sansa initially meant to be a two-tone villain who betrayed her family? Is she overwhelmingly beautiful? Or is she the plainer sister?

It’s quite clear that both ASOIAF Aria and ASOIAF Sansa are entirely different characters to their outlined counterparts.

In the outline, Tyrion sacks and burns Winterfell. In ASOIAF, It’s Theon and later Ramsay who does this. In the outline, it’s Bran, Aria, and Catelyn who go beyond the Wall. In ASOIAF, it’s Bran, Meera, and Jojen (and Hodor). There are a couple of other changes made here, but there seems a pattern where certain acts *still* occur in the main series, they’re just given to different characters (which makes sense, as GRRM grows organically with his characters.)

So, when we take into account the fact of ASOIAF Sansa being considered a main/key character, her marriage to Tyrion, and the possibility of her being the first to reunite with Jon - perhaps GRRM did keep a Stark x Snow romance - but gave it to a different sister.

In the 2016 Balticon report, GRRM stated he wished that ‘some past things didn’t have such strong foreshadowing and that newer things had stronger foreshadowing.’ You can make a case for J0nrya foreshadowing in the first book, but I’d argue that ACOK/ASOS is where the Jon/Sansa clues and foreshadowing is rife. (and there are certainly Jon/Sansa clues in the first book as well.)

Now to circle back. The Aria of this outline doesn’t have a personality - none of the characters do, really. We don’t know how old she is. Is she a teenager? Is she close in age to Jon? We know she has her needle, so can infer she is a fighter and spirited, but is there a soft romantic side to her? Does she cry at songs like her aunt Lyanna? Does she yearn for love? Is she immensely beautiful? For a narrative like this? It'd be likely if Jon and Tyrion are fighting to the death over her, sort of like gallant knights fighting each other to win the heart of a fair maiden (very romantic and idealistic, mirroring the songs and the stories).

(This is how I am certainly inferring such a scene would have gone).

The ASOIAF Aria we know and love took on a life of her own. She’s described as plain looking (some envision her to be more beautiful than characters like D@ny, Cersei, and Sansa though). - But just quickly on that matter, Aria is indeed compared to Lyanna in looks and spirit, though Lyanna’s beauty was described as wild and implied as non-conventional; different perspectives have different opinions on her. For example, Cersei, Jaime, Devan, the Maester who wrote the WOIAF don’t consider her anything special. Whereas Ned, Robert, and Rhaegar do. So it’s one of those instances where you aren’t exactly sure. In any case, Aria's looks aren't a driving factor in her arc, and I don’t see ASOIAF Tyrion (as creepy as he is) suddenly falling in love with her due to mere attraction because presently, Aria is all knobbly knees and elbows, stick thin, a child, not a maiden, who will still be a pre-teen at the end of the series, if there is no massive time jump.

SHE'S JUST A BABY.

But then, Tyrion did lust after Sansa, so there’s that… however ….

Sansa’s beauty is a driving force in her narrative arc. She is objectified for her beauty. Preyed upon because of her beauty; in many ways it causes her to suffer. It’s largely why LF is grossly infatuated with her - she’s beautiful like Catelyn. Tyrion is attracted to Sansa and wishes to bed her, the H0und intends to rape her during the Blackwater battle, he also comments on her breasts growing, Joffrey sexually humiliates her in court, Ser Dontos has a pervy infatuation with her, Cersei despises Sansa because she is younger, more beautiful etc which she views as a threat.

So, beauty is pertinent to Sansa’s narrative, and it isn’t vain or shallow to say so because it’s a large part as to why she suffers. And her physical beauty is meant to compliment her indulgence in romantic idealism; knights, chivalry, courtly love, beautiful appearances thus equating to good people. It also contributes to perceptions of Sansa; nothing more than a pretty, stupid girl with naive dreams.

So back to ASOIAF Aria: Her arc largely surrounds nature & nature, mercy, war trauma and survival, friendship, belonging, and family. For the majority of the story, she is a traumatised 10 year old travelling through a war torn country, witness to awful horrors, forced to assume multiple identities, until she goes to Braavos and begins her faceless man arc. But this is obviously not her endgame - she is going to go home eventually, that is quite clear.

You can argue she had a little crush on Gendry (as a 10 year old would) (and perhaps something may happen with him when she is older, I think GRRM has played with it.) But other than that, romance is not a central part of Aria's arc insofar. For outline Aria it was, but current ASOIAF Aria is on a completely different tangent all together.

(and that poor poor child is suffering immensely while this is all occurring). Currently, she has no time for/interest in it. She hasn’t been involved in betrothals/marriages, or had men lusting after her (save ‘Mercy’ and people men making brutalising sexual comments towards her). She disguises herself as a boy for a good chunk of the story as it is safer to travel.

No, I’m not trying to reduce any sexual trauma/objectification she suffers, she’s a little girl for heaven’s sake - I’m merely stating that what she is going through is in some ways similar and different to what Sansa is going through. (Who currently is in a in a very Lolita type situation with LF and men sexually intimidating/abusing her has been a key part of her arc - as I said, she suffers significantly due to her beauty. She is something to possess, she isn't real or tangible, she is a beautiful maid with a vast claim to the North.)

Anyway, ASOIAF Aria finds songs and romance ‘stupid.’

“Sansa would have shed a tear for true love, but Arya just thought it was stupid.” (Arya VIII ASOS)

(but that doesn’t mean she won’t encounter it later in life, it just means that at this point of the story, she isn’t interested/likely won't encounter some epic grand romance that outline Aria was likely destined for. (And she’s 11 for god’s sake!).

‘But Sansa was dreaming of love at that age!’

Sansa has been a romantic idealistic dreamer since she was a little girl. She adored those stories and is the literal embodiment of the mediaeval pre-raphaelite maiden depicted in art. It’s central to her story arc, to her qualities, and how she functions/copes with things around her. “Life is not a song.” Is so fundamental to that.

So to reiterate ASOIAF Aria is a completely different character to outline Aria- for all we know OG Aria was 15 years old, very beautiful to the point of men duelling over her, (just as depicted in art above) likely a romantic heroine, had consistent memory lapses that would cause her to “realise in terror, she had fallen for Jon,” and based off of GRRM’s past works - was probably a redhead.

“But OG Aria has a sword named needle!”

Indeed, but as I stated, we don’t know anything else about her beyond that. Many have theorised that D@ny and Jon are the epic romance of the series, but it’s clear from this particular outline that GRRM intended for it to be Aria and Jon as the epic major romance of the series. That would mean Aria would have to be a somewhat romantically-inclined character, for this development to appear natural and not forced. Based on her current ASOIAF arc, it doesn’t track for her character to make a sudden 180. Her softness and vulnerable moments come from thinking of her family and home. Insofar, this isn’t equated to yearning for love, romance, children, as Sansa has done from the beginning of the series.

Now, we know GRRM is a self-proclaimed romantic, and ASOIAF Sansa exists very much as a deconstruction of romanticism.

“He said he is a romantic, in the classical sense. He said the trouble with being a romantic is that from a very early age you keep having your face smashed into the harshness of reality. That things aren’t always fair, bad things happen to good people, etc. he said it’s a realistic world, so romantics are burned quite often. This theme of romantic idealism conflicting with harsh reality is something he finds very dramatic and compelling, and he weaves it into his work.” (2005 interview).

Sansa is arguably, the embodiment of this dismantling. But that doesn’t necessarily mean that love isn’t real, or that it doesn’t deserve to exist in a gritty world such as Westeros. There were many couples who had good, happy marriages, even after war and loss and trauma. For example, apart from the Jon Snow situation, Ned and Catelyn had a remarkably healthy relationship. So it is possible - the takeaway from the series is not that hoping is meaningless, dreams are meaningless, love is meaningless. More so that it is complicated, and it must coexist alongside all the chaos in order to achieve a sort of

equilibrium. A literal ‘Dream of Spring’ a hope for happiness, rather than happiness itself. It tracks with the bittersweet conclusion to the series ; it is a grimdark story, but that doesn’t necessarily mean it’ll be a grimdark ending where everyone good and noble dies and wishes/dreams/innate desires remain unfulfilled.

In fact, I argue that a lot of them will come true - but at what cost? It’ll be at the cost of loss and grief, of suffering upon suffering, but what’s inherently more powerful, what’s more subversive is having those characters persist and rebuild, regenerate, create a new world where love and chaos undoubtedly exist alongside each other, but just because there is chaos, that does not mean the love is miniscule or cancels out entirely.

Because if all these characters have the most unsatisfying, awful conclusions known to man, well - what was the point of everything? What was the point of their journeys? This isn’t a nihilistic story, and it won’t have a nihilistic ending like everyone assumes. It’s far more difficult for an author to craft such an ending, balancing things out whilst acknowledging all the loss and still holding out hope for a better future to come. That brighter days will arrive. That winter will end, and spring will be on the horizon.

“We may lose our heads, it’s true. But what if we prevail?” (Davos I ADWD).

And that right there, sums it up perfectly.

So you need characters like Sansa, characters like Brienne, D@ny, (you know what let’s just add all the Stark children of the series to the list, because every single character arc is about remaining resilient and prevailing in some way or another).

But it’s Sansa who exists as the meta character that embodies/indulges in all those romantic ideals that GRRM is intent on exploring - it thus makes perfect sense for it to be her that experiences the romance arc. Many people think she’ll end up with the H0und, or Harry the douchebag, because it’s a part of her growing up, maturing, learning from her negative biases etc etc but she shouldn’t have to be with abusive or douchy men to learn that. She’s already learned and suffered enough.

“It is my claim they want. No one will ever marry me for love.”

And how utterly heartbreaking that she has resigned to think this, with her arc only mid-way. But importantly, just a few chapters later she enters the garden of undisputed beauty and equates the snow landing on her face with romantic kisses, she dreams of innocence and winterfell, despite lamenting how she doesn’t belong in such a pure world, she steps out into it all the same. And she builds her home in the snow, content and for once - she’s the child she is, the child she is yearning to be.

So Sansa falling in love with Jon makes sense on a characteristic level. It’s something she never would have considered as a sheltered child, not just because he’s her bastard half brother but because he just didn’t exist in her idea of how the world works. He didn’t fit in with her idea of knights, and courtly love and chivalry. He wasn’t a gallant golden prince, he was dark, sulky and brooding. He existed on the parameters of her life, and she was comfortable with that distant association - but she still loved him, and he her.

Falling in love with Jon would equate to a dismantling of these previous prejudices she held; he’s utterly unconventional, the opposite of what she has shown attraction to (despite her first ‘love’ being Waymar Royce, who resembles Jon strikingly). The man she never really considered beyond courtesy and some scarce, fond memories - to be the one who restores her faith in men, in love, in dreams.

“Realising with terror that she has fallen in love with Jon… their passion will continue to torment them.”

tracks with Sansa’s characterisation particularly, her memory lapses, her clouded judgement, and inability to interpret things correctly (and something as confusing as this would certainly cause her to have some cognitive dissonance going on).

Not to mention caution around well… men. Because who would ever marry her for love? Who would ever take her for true? Love her without expectations and judgement? It’s Jon. Who has been there since the very beginning, who has been a silent unconscious hero, the answer to her prayers, who embodies all those romantic and knightly ideals she has so desperately wanted - despite her being unaware. Who has advocated for her claim - above everyone else.

“No one will ever marry me for love.” And that infamous Jon chapter follows. Jon who is never quite far from Sansa’s suitors. Jon, who has a similar dream of rebuilding Winterfell, of having children named after lost siblings, who wants to woo a girl by giving her a rose and loving beneath the heart tree - the heart of Winterfell. Who would undeniably want to have that beautiful soul-nourishing love he never received as a child, that he believes is perpetually unavailable to him.

Above all, they just fit together. It fits with GRRM’s William Faulkner-esque “the human heart in conflict with itself".” And this is a perfectly subversive way of encapsulating that Jon confusing brotherly love and affection with romance, struggling with the shame of it all - especially post-resurrection, the religious disillusionment that would occur, the notion of Jon being loved by the kind of girl he believed he never had the right to, who his deeply romantic heart is yearned for. (There is a reason GRRM let us know how badly Jon yearns for domesticity, Winterfell love, children, and a wife. He associates his love for Ygritte with her singing, her hair, her smile. He dreams of her tending to him with gentle hands) The simple yet meaningful things that have been denied to him because of his bastardry. And god, what better way to torment these two than by having them fall for each other - realising they fit each other so perfectly, yet tormented by their familial relation. Until, as the outline puts, the parentage is revealed.

Do I believe they will act on their feelings pre-parentage reveal? No. It’ll likely exist in the subtext, in private thoughts and actions. Angst, guilt. Again, the stuff that GRRM loves - the human heart is in conflict with itself.

Much like Lord Byron’s ‘The Bride of Abydos.” Where half-siblings fall in love with each other until they realise they are actually cousins. Lord Byron, who was famously in love with his half sister Augusta, who was a stranger to him for a good portion of his life until they properly got to know each other and fell in love. (Who does that sound like?’)

And if you’re wondering how Jon and Sansa could possibly connect to Lord Byron, well there is a ‘Byron the Beautiful’ in Alayne II AFFC, and Alayne I TWOW. GRRM has further instilled characters by the name of “Manfred” which is in reference to Lord Byron’s infamous work of the same name. (I urge you to check out all of Cappy's Byron metas, they are fantastic.

And, Jon has been called a “Brooding, Byronic, romantic heroine whom all the girls love.” GRRM knows what Byronic is inferring - he isn’t daft, he’s a writer - he reads other works and takes influence and sprinkles in so many things.

A Byronic character involves:

. . romantic melancholy, guilt for secret sin, pride, defiance, restlessness, alienation, revenge, remorse, moodiness, and such noble virtues as honor, altruism, courage, and pure love for a gentle woman. (Poetry Foundation, Lord Byron)

“GRRM: I was always intensely Romantic, even when I was too young to understand what that meant. But Romanticism has its dark side, as any Romantic soon discovers… which is where the melancholy comes in, I suppose. I don’t know if this is a matter of artistic influences so much as it is of temperament. But there’s always been something in the twilight that moves me, and a sunset speaks to me in a way that no sunrise ever has.”

Infinity plus:

And isn’t that exactly what he would be exploring with Jon and Sansa? It isn’t a conventional romance by any means. It could never exist normally until Jon’s parentage is revealed. And that is the tormented nature of it, that is the “bittersweetness” of it - it is rooted in realism, yes - and that to me, is Sansa receiving her true love, countering that no one would ever marry her for love. The gods will grant it to her, - but it’s wrapped up in this darker, morally ambiguous thing that is confusing for her, even though Jon would be her dream come true - he isn’t this neat little courtly golden package, but he embodies all those ideals more than any man she’s actually met.

It’s subversive to what both the characters and the readers expect, and it’s just a brilliant plot twist that screams unpredictability whilst fitting together like a perfect puzzle. It creates internal conflict and evokes those themes that GRRM loves to explore. By giving the ‘heroes’ of the series a motif such as incest is extremely bold; because it challenges the reader greatly. Some people don’t want Jon to end up with Sansa because it contradicts the image that they have of him in his head - the heroic male who will save the world with his heroic counterpart and together they shall rule the seven kingdoms. To embrace his father’s family, claim a dragon, fulfil the prophecy, be the third head of the dragon, reject his stark-ness. Very predictable. Done to death a thousand times over, and yet - it is what the general audience wants/expects. It’s what the dudebros who call him the ‘GOAT’ want, it’s what the Targ stans want, it’s what the show watchers wanted - but what does Jon want?

“Yet he could not let the wildlings breach the Wall, to threaten Winterfell and the north, the barrowlands and the Rills, White Harbor and the Stony Shore, even the Neck. For eight thousand years the men of House Stark had lived and died to protect their people against such ravagers and reavers . . . and bastard-born or no, the same blood ran in his veins. Bran and Rickon are still at Winterfell besides. Maester Luwin, Ser Rodrik, Old Nan, Farlen the kennelmaster, Mikken at his forge and Gage by his ovens . . . everyone I ever knew, everyone I ever loved.” (Jon II ASOS).

“I would need to steal her if I wanted her love, but she might give me children. I might someday hold a son of my own blood in my arms. A son was something Jon Snow had never dared dream of, since he decided to live his life on the Wall. I could name him Robb. Val would want to keep her sister's son, but we could foster him at Winterfell, and Gilly's boy as well. Sam would never need to tell his lie. We'd find a place for Gilly too, and Sam could come visit her once a year or so. Mance's son and Craster's would grow up brothers, as I once did with Robb.

"He wanted it, Jon knew then. He wanted it as much as he had ever wanted anything. I have always wanted it, he thought, guiltily. May the gods forgive me. It was a hunger inside him, sharp as a dragonglass blade.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“Red eyes, Jon realised, but not like Melisandre's. He had a weirwood's eyes. Red eyes, red mouth, white fur. Blood and bone, like a heart tree. He belongs to the old gods, this one. And he alone of all the direwolves was white. Six pups they'd found in the late summer snows, him and Robb; five that were grey and black and brown, for the five Starks, and one white, as white as Snow.”

He had his answer then." (Jon XII ASOS)

“He was the blood of Winterfell, a man of the Night's Watch. I will not father a bastard, he told her. I will not. I will not. "You know nothing, Jon Snow," she whispered.” (Jon VI ASOS)

“Ygritte answered for him. "His name is Jon Snow. He is Eddard Stark's blood, of Winterfell." (Jon VIII ACOK)

"Then you must do what needs be done," Qhorin Halfhand said. "You are the blood of Winterfell and a man of the Night's Watch." (Jon VI ASOS).

“You can't be the Lord of Winterfell, you're bastard-born, he heard Robb say again. And the stone kings were growling at him with granite tongues. You do not belong here. This is not your place. When Jon closed his eyes he saw the heart tree, with its pale limbs, red leaves, and solemn face. The weirwood was the heart of Winterfell, Lord Eddard always said . . . but to save the castle Jon would have to tear that heart up by its ancient roots, and feed it to the red woman's hungry fire god. I have no right, he thought. Winterfell belongs to the old gods.” (Jon XII ASOS)

“He sat on the bench and buried his head in his hands. Why am I so angry? he asked himself, but it was a stupid question. Lord of Winterfell. I could be the Lord of Winterfell. My father's heir.” (Jon XII ASOS).

“If I could show her Winterfell . . . give her a flower from the glass gardens, feast her in the Great Hall, and show her the stone kings on their thrones. We could bathe in the hot pools, and love beneath the heart tree while the old gods watched over us.” (Jon V ASOS).

“If he must perish, let it be with a sword in his hand, fighting his father's killers. He was no true Stark, had never been one … but he could die like one. Let them say that Eddard Stark had fathered four sons, not three.” (Jon IX AGOT).

Look, at the end of the day - we don't know how the story will go, but based off of Jon’s character arc? His thoughts? His actions? His relationships with his siblings? The fact that he has warged into a magical beast directly associated with Starks? The North? The Old Gods? The weir wood trees? I think that instead of GRRM having Jon go down the conventional disadvantaged male hero finding out he is a secret prince and thus becoming King and a proper Targ, GRRM will subvert expectations (much to audience displeasure) and do the opposite.

Learning of his true identity will just cause more angst and a major identity crisis. The one thing Jon finds real and solid, that no one can take from him - is that he is Ned Stark’s son. He raised him. Perhaps they don’t share a direct blood link. But that doesn’t matter, what matters is that he was raised by him, loved by him. So instead of choosing his father’s family; embracing the secret prince persona and fighting for the throne - he’ll choose his mother’s family. And I think that is beautifully conclusive.

But back to Jon and Sansa. GRRM is given the opportunity to explore the sort of impact this incest motif has on fundamentally good people. And I think this is what he originally intended to do with Jon and Aria.

Yes, we have Jaime and Cersei, but this is real sibling incest and rife with toxic narcissism, possession etc. We have the T@rgaryens, which are messy beyond belief and practice it due to blood purity.

But Jon and Sansa clearly differ from the rest, and that is because they exist partly as foils as to what we previously have seen. Similar to Jonnel x Sansa. By intentionally refraining from the development of a properly-close sibling relationship, making Jon and Sansa fundamental opposites visually, and associating them with entirely different cultures (yet writing their core personas as the same, their dreams compatible, their thought process and idealism similar).

GRRM manages to pave the way into such a romance that comes as a shock to the characters, the narrative, and readers themselves. Because no one, absolutely no one would see it coming, and the people who have been privy to the theory - immediately dismiss it - and become quite angry when it is brought up. Like I said earlier, a knee-jerk reaction.

To quote this brilliant meta right here:

‘Whether Jon and Sansa fall in love is up to the author and his intended exploration of literary/mythic themes that his predecessors have deployed. He is not writing from (or for) the moral values of show watchers and book readers, or their anecdotal hopes for how things “should be.” He’s writing a narrative that breaks away from conventional storytelling and what we expect from such characters.’

…

‘ I don’t believe the author is giving up completely on the romantic dream. He has made Sansa more cautious, converted her dreams into mere prayers, and has forced her to examine her assumptions, but he’s not turning her into the H0und, who is too pessimistic and fatalistic as a suitor. Sandor’s assertion that all knights are killers makes fantasy so small, it’s eliminated. I think he is setting Sansa on a path where her dreams do die, and her life becomes about as romantic as that smokestack in Cleveland - until they start to come alive again when she travels North to the Wall.’

'That cold, hard reality is still present in the fact that they are brother and sister, but once Jon’s parentage is revealed, this will change. Like an inverted Cinderella (clock striking 12), the reality will become fantasy again. But it’s still inladen with this bitter reality of their relations. So taking this into account, I believe Jon and Sansa could happen because there is no other couple in the series with which GRRM can explore his fascination with fantasy becoming “smaller,” but not completely shrinking altogether. There are no two better characters who represent these ideas, who have the same quietly domestic desires - who do not (at the moment) actively lust for power and cause it to blind them.'

So in essence, Jon and Sansa exist as the subversion of romance. In a twisted, loving sort of way that is morally conflicting to the characters and audiences (for a time). That has existed between the lines, subtly and implicitly. That the audience gives absolutely no thought, because why would they? And if they do, they are abhorred by it - but I’d argue this is the entire point. But not for the reasons you think, not because of the incest - or J0nerys would disgust them.

From the moment he started the series, GRRM has employed incest as a major motif that impacts both the narrative and the characters - the causes the war, that contributes to T@rgaryen values, legacy etc, that propels aspects of narcissism and vitriol for characters like Cersei. It’s really really interesting stuff, as uncomfortable as it is - there are no other works that explore it so messily and beautifully with such nuance.

I believe people seriously underestimate GRRM’s use of omission and subtext. Seriously, just because something is not explicitly stated, doesn’t mean it isn’t there. Unfortunately fans have such a surface level reading of the text, that they are unable to peel back the layers and get to its core. They don’t consider literary influences, or art, or the Romantic movement or anything. They claim they want a complex story that is subversive, yet they cheer for the three-headed dragon theory and all the most predictable plot points that have been absolutely done to death. But then they turn up their noses at anything that goes against the grain, or insinuates otherwise.

R + L = J is a great example of existence within the subtext, yet nobody denies that it is there. No one is called crazy or delusional for it. Ned never thinks of Jon’s true parentage despite harbouring that secret for years, because it is buried deep in his subconscious.

And much to the audience’s surprise (and dismay I'm sure) that is how Jon and Sansa will manifest. This is the human heart in conflict with Jon and Sansa, but not just them - the readers as well. It’s pointing to us, asking us how we’ll possibly handle it. We’re meant to feel this conflict of emotions - anguish and torment and yet hope for something ineffable - just like the characters.

To be able to evoke that as a writer is one of the most impressive feats I can think of - and for the majority of it to exist at this point, in a subconscious limbo? How utterly complex and painful and raw and intelligent but oh so very brilliant. Perhaps one of the most compelling things to come out of this entire series, if only the general audience was open to such discussions. But alas, we must contend with the community we have, and hope for a dream of spring to come upon us.

#jonsa #jon x sansa #meta #anti asoiaf fandom #jonsa meta #long post #lord byron #incest motif #original outline #literary subversion #sansa stark #jon snow

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snakeoilpictures · 10 months ago

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The problem with pro-shippers: NSFW child content

Silence is golden but that only pertains to certain cases. The subject of pro-ship vs anti-ship has been a huge manner of debate in fandoms, primarily A03 and A03's subreddit and tumblr community. If you admit to being anti-ship, you're suddenly exiled and considered a pariah to the community and a promoter of cancel culture.

"Let people enjoy things!" "It's not real, it's fictional!" "These characters and actors are our toys to play with" "Disregard all haters, they're the monsters"

Only goes so far in some subjects. There is a fine line drawn when the content involves CSEA that's not told with a negative connotation.

However, pro-shippers do not like being told the difference.

The difference between a negative narrative and a romanticizing narrative. (ie: we as readers and the author know that pedophilia and child pornography is bad. Versus: we as readers and the author enjoy fictional pornography when it involves children and we enjoy writing 10 year olds having sex with other 10 year olds or a 10 year old calling a 40 year old man "daddy" during NSFW acts).

That the characters being fictionalized completely disregards all notions that the author and readers enjoy reading about children in NSFW content. Because it's "fictional".

That if you like watching a cannibal on TV and the fact that you may enjoy a show about a cannibal, it doesn't make you a cannibal because it's fiction. This argument is used on the daily for pro-shippers.

4. Because no children are actually harmed. That may be, but the reader and author are still enjoying content that involves the images of children in NSFW scenarios.

The fact of the matter is that it doesn't matter if the children are fictionalized or not, but no pro-shipper is going to agree because the characters in themselves are considered "toys" they can play with. (Don't get me started on how wrong the term of "toy" sounds in regards to children, fictional or not.)

The true facts here are that the reader and author are still putting a child's face onto a character involved in NSFW content. That's all it is. Picturing a child's prepubescent body parts as a character and finding that attractive enough to write about in an NSFW fashion. Again, pro-ship will disagree and become hostile.

But why is NSFW fictional child pornography morally wrong when writing fictionalized incest pornography is not?

Because the fictionalized incest pornography does not involve actual siblings or family members. One may just like the characters together regardless of blood. It doesn't mean that the author or reader is attracted to their real life sibling or wishes to put two real life siblings together in NSFW scenarios like Liam and Chris Hemsworth and because child pornography is CSEA. A child cannot consent. Even fantasizing about a fictional child in rape scenarios is beyond levels of fucked up.

"But fictionalized incest isn't real so fictionalized child pornography isn't real"

The biggest difference is that the reader and writer aren't finding the real life prospect of incest attractive, but they are finding CSEA content an attractive scenario.

But god forbid you raise your voice against this, and you'll be crucified.

It. Doesn't. Matter. That. They're. Not. Real.

You are still attracted to the images of child characters.

But wait, no actual children were harmed?! "It's just an instrusive thought" "I can safely look at CSEA in a safe environment where I don't hurt anyone" No. Get help. Get therapy. Harm reduction is not thr same when it comes to non consenting minors and when it comes to a user getting off on the idea of children. Get help. There is no lesser evil here. These thoughts are not okay.

Come @ me. I'm not scared. Not as scared as some pro-shippers should be once their search history is discovered. (For the record, I pray you do not have this kind of content on your person. However if you truly believe CSEA is okay if no one is physically harmed by you then by all means, tell your therapist about it)

#end rant

#antiship #the problem with proship

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raven-at-the-writing-desk · 3 months ago

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Dear Raven ven venny ven, do you have any favourite ships in the twst cast? If so, why?

I don’t have any ships among the TWST cast that I’m crazy about! That doesn’t mean I “hate” all the combinations, it’s just that I feel neutral about most of them. I would say I’m pretty open to considering rare pairs and all kinds of tropes (enemies to lovers, childhood friends, etc.), but I’ve yet to find one in TWST that solidly lands with me.

Certainly there are dynamics I enjoy—the Science Club boys, for example—but do I see them being romantically engaged with one another? Eeeeeh, debatable. I could really go either way.

It’s actually easy to (temporarily) influence my takes on certain ships 😂 Sometimes I’ll listen to my friends talk ad nauseam about a ship they’re super into and their excitement is so infectious that it rubs off on me. I’ll go, “Wow, that really is a cute interaction! I can see why you ship them.” This had happened before with Malleus x Cater a few years back, though now I’ve returned to a neutral state on it since the shipper friend hasn’t been as active talking about the two. I appreciate my friends for popping off because even if I don’t have the same passion as they do for the ship, it helps me see the characters and their interactions under a new lens or from a different angle. (I actually wrote a fic where Cater takes Malleus to a maid cafe, inspired by my friend’s speeches about the duo. It’s meant to be platonic, but I think it could also be read as romantic if you choose to view it that way.)

I get easily influenced by fan art too, even if I don’t know the creator on a personal level. A few weeks back, I saw this Jade x Jamil post and it was so wholesome and tooth rottingly sweet (even though it was a ship I did not gave the time of day to before) 😭 And then I started to think about their similarities (both vice dorm leaders, both passive aggressive, both manipulators, etc.) and gradually convinced myself “Hey, it could work!” Now that I’ve had some time to be weaned off of the fan art though, I’m back to that baseline feeling of neutrality. It’s the exposure therapy wearing off/j

On the topic of Yuu (they’re technically a part of the TWST cast), I’m particularly lukewarm about any ships involving them—and Yuu ships are the only exception to my “I’m easily influenced to change my mind” rule; I’m always neutral about Yuu ships. They’re a blank slate, so the dynamics they have with other characters changes drastically depending on what “kind” of Yuu they are. I don’t have a Yuusona of my own, nor do I project onto Yuu, so I find little value in their character (or lack thereof). This extends to ships too; because I don’t see (my) Yuu as a “real” character, I also don’t see the potential in shipping them with those in the cast. I’ll support everyone’s right to their own Yuu and related ships, but I don’t necessarily get gung-ho about them unless I know the creators well. This is because the familiarity I have with them then extends to their Yuus; I can see bits of them and their own personalities and experiences in their Yuus, and that makes me feel like I have a more meaningful bond with whatever their interpretation (and romantic involvement!) is.

Of course, there are also some ships that I don’t like or that personally make me uncomfortable (for example, incest ships) 💦 I don’t want to like… yuck your yums, so I won’t go into explicit detail about which other ships I’m not a fan of or would prefer as platonic. Regardless of how I may feel about those, I don’t want to give the impression that I’m going to judge you for what you do or don’t ship. You do you—just be sure to respect boundaries and don’t push what you ship onto others, especially if they have indicated they’re not into the same things you are.

Just to make things clear, please do NOT send me asks like “Here is my ship and here is why you should consider it!” and “How do you feel about [Character A] x [Character B]?” or any variant (which includes polycules, love triangles, etc.). I will also not be responding to asks pressing me for which ships I dislike. I won’t be providing a tier list either since there are way too many possible combinations to account for. Shipping talk with strangers/the public makes me anxious and I’d rather not have that level of stress on a consistent basis.

Thank you for understanding ^^

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rosemariad · 2 months ago

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THE BITTER END | SPN 15x18 DESPAIR: About that Destiel moment in 15x18

Oh boy…the scene that sailed a thousand memes (and counting)…the scene that made us all go feral in the midst of a contentious presidential elections in one of the most disruptive, chaotic years in recent memory (2020 you son of a bitch)

Now i am super late with this since it’s nearly been 4 years since this was aired live on TV and posted like crazy all over the internet BUT…y’all Destiel shippers got robbed. Not just with this scene but the whole Destiel ship in general - just done so dirty.

I started watching this show on and off back in 2021 and I finally got to finish over the summer this year (2024) taking my sweet time, even rewatching certain episodes (for some fanfic writing 😁). I went into this to settle the debate for myself - is this Destiel stuff legit? Or was it taken out of context? Misconstrued.

No. It really wasn’t. They (the powers behind SPN) tried it, tried to pull the wool over people’s heads, with certain fans chiming in (the destiel haters, the homophobes, the anti-mishas, etc.) but no. The SPN showrunners fucked all this up.

From the beginning….

So it’s 15x18 despair - we’re in the last act - shit’s popping off, everything’s going tits up - Billie is trying to hunt Dean down, calling him chaos incarnate. Dean & Cas get trapped in a room with no apparent means of escape or defense - probably should’ve headed for the exit - but I guess since it’s the 3rd to last episode and the execs clearly want things to go back to the status quo 🙄 now’s as good a time as any to cash in on that plot thread from last season and kill Castiel once and for all 😭 (as 1 person pointed out, given the prior context they probably could've just waited Billie out, since them being trapped in that room - Cas was the one that blocked the door anyhow - but I get it SPN showrunners you wanted to get rid of Cas somehow - what a mess)

If you haven’t watched it - here’s where I gasp and scoff in disbelief - please watch it https://youtu.be/l_r9GZeQl1w?si=uVox8PlXByYEYKci

youtube

Basically Cas tells Dean he’s the greatest guy he’s ever known, that he fights for love and that Cas lurves Dean 😭 and he’s not the bad things enemies say Dean is. That he’s more than the worst parts of himself - oh Cas.

This was Castiel’s one moment of true happiness - telling the one person whom he adores more than anyone or anything else in the entire universe - that he is loved by Castiel himself.

The confession that triggers Castiel’s demise to go with the empty, takes Billie with him and before Dean can process the massive TRUTH BOMB Castiel just dumped on him, Castiel is gone.

Despair indeed.

They made too many fucking cuts to this scene, at least for Jensen’s coverage. Like if you don’t want Dean to reciprocate…fine. Don’t. But let him fucking respond! Let him use his words. Castiel just told Dean he was in love with him, that is one of the BIGGEST things you can say to somebody in your life. EVER. Especially on TV. And yes it was in love, like romantically. Not platonically because why make such a fucking fuss over fucking platonic friendship! There’s always been a tension between these 2 characters, it hung over between them since season 4. They just made it into a joke, never expecting to get the traction it did over the years. They even tried writing Cas off the show for good back in season 7. But they got stuck with Cas and never really made proper use of him. They literally just waited until the last minute to get rid of him in a way that couldn’t get the show cancelled until that decision had already been made by the network. to make things worse - COVID happened

So don’t tell me the confession doesn’t merit a response, either for or against on Dean’s part - whether he returns Castiel’s affection or not is another story but dammit let Dean speak! How could you not? Cowards!

And Would it be so terrible if Dean did feel something MORE than friendship for the only other individual that has stood by him for so many years? Like really? A relationship doesn’t demand sex (but let’s be honest, Cas probably wanted to fuck the shit outta Dean 🤣) it’s whatever the people in the relationship want! Dean isn’t young by the time s15 rolls around. Older people tend to just want someone to come home to, settle down with. Companionship. Cas fits that to a fucking T. When Dean dreamed of a future, Cas was right there with him (and Sam, cuz Dean always wants his family close as much as he can, given how he grew up).

Couldn’t find a gif of Dean talking about taking some time off after all the craziness of the hunting they do but I’m not crazy I know he wanted it.

The team behind SPN could have finished Dean’s narrative beautifully as man who was driven by fear all his life and opens himself up to a relationship he never saw coming but when the time came he didn’t run because he grew to love more than fear (and choose to live a life of peace after stuck in one of violence for so many years).

This is why Hollywood is shit! Great beginnings, shitty endings. But in this case, it was because they consistently chose NOT to indulge in queer-like narratives with enough care (aside from some other problematic stuff like the treatment towards women being more negative than positive, the inconsistent writing for characters and plot, etc.)

BUT not when it’s the main character 😡 Charlie can be gay AF but not Dean, seriously? That’s fucked. Like at least let him fucking explore/consider it. So people stop watching it who gives AF?! I never even watched the show when it was on air for 15 years, tons of people didn’t. There are still people out there watching SPN for the first time today! People who started but stopped because it’s a show that ran WAAAY longer than any other normally does.

Idk who made it so that Dean couldn’t explore his sexuality or fucked up the Destiel of it all but they SUUUUUUUUCK! You really shat the bed! at least explore it cuz at the end of the day, it may not work out. Gay relationships aren’t that different from straight relationships in that sometimes it just doesn’t work out BECAUSE we’re ALL people. And who knows maybe they could’ve been happy but we’re not allowed to know that canonically because Destiel was never given a CHANCE!

I mean if it was REALLY that big a deal – why introduce it? By making these little suggestions that (in a way that's funny but why would Dean be queer be haha funny - no that's not okay, queerness shouldn't be a joke) furthermore we’re talking about a show on basic cable - all it would’ve taken was fucking hand-holding or the same routine of staring into each other’s eyes like they’d been doing for 12 fucking years already! Just not shying away from the queerness that time. Legend of Korra did it. That 1 Disney show did it (i don’t remember the name). No kissing would’ve been necessary - nice, wishful thinking but not necessary if the kissing became an issue (but seriously it was 2020 man but ofc - that is a year where a pandemic that required social distancing decided to kick in during the final arc of this show) - just so we’re all clear COVID cock blocked Destiel lol jk 🤣

All those times they had Dean & Cas stare into each other's eyes – the forces at work – showrunners, writers, directors AND editors & the network who is showing this to audiences – if its such a big fucking deal - Don't leave it in. By leaving it in, you're allowing people to make assumptions about the relationship – it happens literally every time in every story ever told. You put 2 people in a scene and they're not family (though not always the case) or JUST friends (explicitly proven) there's a chance SOMEONE is gonna wanna ship them no matter how likely it is (OR NOT) they'll hookup or become a couple. That's just how it is. So don't fan the flames and then turn it around on fans that they're wrong, crazy or misinterpreting. If Wincest can exist, so can Destiel and any other ship. That being said, y’all Destiel shippers were ROBBED but I don’t need to tell you that.

I don’t think the relationship would’ve been perfect or smooth sailing - their friendship as it was on the show sure wasn’t. And Dean wasn’t the only one with issues - Cas had some bad qualities too - the angel liked to lie and for a while there he was extremely averse to conflict. And Dean…he gets real fucking angry 😬 not a good mix for a relationship- hell even a friendship.

But the two had a profound bond, with a great deal of affection for one another and that’s what got them through betrayal, fights, amnesia, curses, apocalypses, and all the ugliness in between. They could’ve made it. Or they could’ve just had Cas and Dean stay friends - but we’ll never know since Cas was pretty much omitted after 15x18 - there were references - like only 2 though 😒

Really SPN? 😒😔 so lazy. But sure, go ahead, blame COVID. It’s not like phones exist. It’s not like the actor couldn’t have just recorded Castiel’s voice nope. Totally not an option 🤦🏾‍♀️ same goes for the other characters - Jody, Donna, Eileen - you know all the other characters Sam & Dean cared about but sure - fuck ‘em too. Status quo is the only thing that matters - SMH.

#supernatural #dean winchester #castiel #deancas #destiel #supernatural season 15 #the destiel meme #destiel confession #spn final season #spnfandom #spn 15x18

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tex-now · 7 months ago

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Hey is it just me or do certain fans complain about how much they hate the other groups instead of loving theirs.

I don't think calling out the misogyny in this fandom is wrong, not in the slightest (my most popular post is calling out the way people treat ena versus akito because of their gender), but most of the time these call out posts just result in more negativity and arguments rather than any like. Productive discussion.

I don't wanna hear about how minoharu and anhane are more canon than ruikasa and akitoya and are Therefore More Valid And Liking Ruikasa More Is Wrong And Bad (exaggerated but most of the time people do insult a ship in order to promote their own) (also sometimes implies that rarepairs are less valid which is a dick move). I wanna hear about the interesting (and I mean very interesting) relationship that an has with kohane, her feelings of inadequacy and slight envy, I wanna hear about how minori (and the rest of mmj) inspired haruka to get back on the stage, and how minori finally got to "repay" haruka in a way.

I didn't start liking ichika because of people endlessly complaining about how underutilized she is and how You Guys Just Don't Get Her, Read The Stories And you'll Discover That She's Actually Perfect Actually (this one isn't an exaggeration but it was on YouTube not Tumblr so in it goes), I started liking her because I learned about her character, her sheer determination and love for her friends, and her want to resonate with people's hearts from people who really like her.

I'm not gonna pretend the Ruikasa fandom and akitoya fandom can't be annoying, a lot of them are toxic and have a habit of making everything about Ruikasa/akitoya while reducing their relationships with other characters to push their shipping narrative. It pisses me off. A lot. I could write (and probably will write) an entire essay on how entitled and bitchy Ruikasa/akitoya fans can be, and I definitely understand how it can build up resentment towards a ship, and how their mass popularity is most definitely attributed to the fact that they are men (which results in an extreme lack of understanding of their actual characters and overall dynamic, reducing them to "top tall sexy one" and "bottom cute feminine one" which upsets me to hell and back). And calling this out is not wrong in the slightest.

but needlessly attacking a ship that someone likes is not a call out. calling Ruikasa and akitoya "a stupid ship" is not a call out. Actively insulting people for liking it is not a call out. Adding Ruikasa and akitoya tags to your post bashing them is not a callout. It's being a dick. You are not doing anything productive by calling Ruikasa and akitoya shippers idiots or stupid or insulting their taste you are only going to piss people off and you know that you are going to piss people off.

Acknowledge but do not attack. Be civil. And if you cant be civil then save everyone some time and keep it private.

Oh yeah. And be annoying about your blorbos. Make KING kanamafu art. Put shizuairi in Fragile. Talk about how much you love your girl ships and your girl characters and don't event mention the guys, make fanfiction and fanart of the girls, I really really want you to, genuinely, because they do get less rep in the fandom than their male counterparts, so more content of the girls is always great. It feels a lot better than complaining about a ship you don't even like, I promise

(Btw I mention this in the tags but if anyone wants to add input or correct me on something you totally can. My words aren't law and this post is just me stating my thoughts, and I invite you to share yours if you want.)

#also if anyone has anything they want to add or correct me on and add some input that's fine btw #and one more thing. “be civil” applies to everyone. including akitoya and ruikasa fans. dont call other ships irrelevant dont attack them-#DONT ATTACK THE OTHER RUI AND TSUKASA SHIPS BECAUSE YOU DONT LIKE THEM. FUCK #project sekai #prsk #my writing

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ghostflowerhotpotch · 1 year ago

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Hey hey, MIles gets jealous a lot in this movie, buuuuuut what if we talk about Gwen? 👀

Oh ho ho, I know there has been memes and stuff about that, but sure, let's talk about it.

I know we all mentioned jealousy coming from Miles, but I think is kind of poetic, but also hilarious, how quickly we go from Miles's jealousy to Gwen's.

Specially if we go with the fact that once again, while Gwen doesn't really own any explanations to Miles here, nor has she done anything wrong by being friends with Hobie.

(Also look at Hobie, I want you to remember that. Also he is amazing so he deserves the extra attention.)

Yet what is her reaction?

"Oh, not that many."

I swear, I am trying not to laugh.

See what I mean? Gwen is not only aware that Miles is jealous, she is still is trying to downplay it; even when she is convinced they can't work, she doesn't want Miles to misunderstand her feelings; which she has tried to hide, but I think at this point she knows she isn't doing a good job at it.

(The entire clock scene was very close to a confession let's be honest.)

Also, about Hobie, remember how I was bringing attention to him in the first image? Yeah I am still not sure what to do with it.

Let me be honest with you guys, to get these images I do a lot of slow-motion, which also helps to let certain frames sink better and be sure that I am not just making up what I am seeing; since a lot of these moments are things that last seconds. Very blink-it and you miss it.

And while looking at this particular part, I realized Hobie's expression when he was still were...interesting.

Look part of the reason looking at frames matter in animation is because in real life; an actor could had looked at one direction because he saw a crew member do a funny face, but in animation, when you need to recreate the scene for scratch and will probably be staring at this scene a lot to ensure is up to standard, things tend to have a bit more meaning.

That being said, if you look the scene to normal speed, is extremely fast. Maybe too much for the animators to intend for us to notice something.

So what I am trying to say is that I wonder if Hobie is purposely setting Miles off, and if he is doing so, I honestly think is just to mess with them a little.

Moving on!

If I am honest, you could almost believe Gwen just wants to move on because Miguel is waiting for them and the guy is already aggro, that was my first impression at least, until I re watched and realized that they are just seeing a demonstration before going to Miguel, so they are 1) Really giving Miles a tour, and 2) Stalling. Which doesn't match going straight to the boss.

Also Gwen's voice; the first time I saw this I remember being surprised that Gwen was asking to start moving because before this point she didn't seem to be worried. Her tone definitely sounds a bit exasperated, specially considering again how little they actually seem to care to get to Miguel.

So yeah, Gwen DEFINITELY was asking to keep moving because Miles' was attention was too much in somebody.

Let's rewind a bit because let's face it, I don't blame Gwen for being jealous.

I wish my computer had a way to render a little video without imploding because oh this takes a hot second and yep Miles definitely was looking at Margo a little awestruck.

Let me preface this saying I will not tolerate any Hate to Margo or to Flowerbyte or the shippers. She is great, and I will not tolerate ship wars here.

That being said, Miles definitely is looking a little too much at Margo; I partially thing Miles was a bit shocked because it has been a while since his spider sense got receptive to other spider (which happened a lot in the first movie, not so much in this one for meeting so many spiders.)

But again, I don't think is crazy to say she caught his attention.

No, I don't think Miles is doing anything wrong here, just like Gwen didn't do anything wrong before. They aren't dating, Gwen tried to shut that down, and is not like Miles is trying to upset Gwen or anything. He was just caught off-guard.

Regardless, just like I cannot blame Miles for being jealous of Hobie, I can't blame Gwen for being jealous of Margo.

She hides it better than Miles for sure, but like everything else she does, it comes back to the details and her actions.

Remember, they aren't particularly in a hurry, and she suddenly sounds exasperated out of nowhere. Hmm.

Now, the next moment is very blink and you miss it, I barely had the chance to notice while going in slow motion, but between Gwen telling Miles to move on, and Miles looking at Margo's avatar, this is Gwen's face.

Is very fast, probably the type of thing you don't pick up in theatres, but damn, I am cackling.

I guess she really wasn't expecting Margo to get such reaction out of Miles.

This a good moment to say, that while looking at this, you can see Gwen doesn't have any ill-will towards Margo.

Unlike the previous moment, this expression of her stays for a good moment; I remember that upon first stumbling with the confirmation that Gwen is jealous of Margo, I was shocked to see that expression on her, almost like she herself remembered that Margo situation is far from perfect.

I am SO thankful with the creators for making sure that neither from Miles nor Gwen, we get the plot line of one of them being jerks out of jealousy. Yeah Miles briefly tried to be spiteful towards Hobie, but didn't take long too change his tune, not to mention that Hobie really didn't mind.

And Gwen at any moment is shown to be bitter towards Margo, regardless if Miles was doing puppy eyes at her or not.

I just realized now, that Gwen is actually the first one to say they should go.

I really believe part of this was because the go-home-machine was looking a bit perverse. Even Margo looks a bit unsure of what to do of this, so it makes me wonder if is normal for it to look this painful.

(Sidenote, considering Miles and Gwen looked okay when they got out from this machine, I think Rhino was in pain because he was glitching at that moment. That would explain Margo looking like this if it was "normal.")

It doesn't escape me that Miles' reaction is the most shock one, no idea if Gwen could had picked on that being behind Miles, but maybe she realized Miles didn't particularly enjoy seeing that.

However, what happens next?

And here, I can only show it properly with this gif.

I want also to reiterate, that "Let's go!" Was from Hobie, I think he was trying to warn Miles.

Because Gwen didn't repeat herself, she deadass just sent a web and YANK HIM.

Again, wanting to go see Miguel my ass, you guys didn't seem particularly interested on that before. Not to mention that hey, you can see she isn't asking anymore and considering how she was looking at Miles from behind I don't think is because she doesn't want to be late.

Is a bit too small to take a proper capture, and hard to see, but yep, she looks mad.

I love how Margo laughs after this, like sure, Miles is endearing, but I also bet my left kidney she also clocked Gwen's crush extremely quickly because of this.

I almost expect Margo and Pavitr discuss who is crushing harder in the sequel.

Sorry for making this so freaking long and with so many sideways, but I think I needed to point out a few things, hope didn't bored anyone!

Keep suggesting moments!

#ghostflower #gwiles #gwen stacy #miles morales #atsv #across the spiderverse #across the spiderverse spoilers #spiderman #margo kess #hobie brown #spiderwoman #ghostflower files #ask

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zukosdualdao · 6 months ago

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the idea that zutara shippers are just ~shallowly*~ obsessed with the enemies to lovers dynamic is so funny to me, personally, because it’s so far from what my preferred ship dynamic tends to be. in general, i am much more predisposed to enjoy romances rooted in friendship and affection right off the bat. i can see the appeal of a lot of enemies-to-lovers ship dynamics on an objective level, but it’s historically pretty rare for that to be the kind of dynamic i am most invested in or pulled in by.

and funnily enough, though i do see and appreciate in retrospect the romantic coding before that point (zuko, buddy, what WAS “you rise with the moon, i rise with the sun” - and keeping katara’s necklace for six episodes after bribing her already didn’t work - about??? i have questions), it’s really not until the crossroads of destiny, where they connect as something other than enemies for the first time, on a much more personal level than anyone in the gaang has connected with zuko, that my interest in their dynamic took root.

*to be clear: this is not me saying that it’s bad for people to like zutara specifically because they generally like the enemies-to-lovers trope or to have started shipping them early on. and i don’t see that as shallow myself, it’s just a criticism i’ve seen slung around a lot. literally ship and let ship. and also, like, of course i enjoy the early aspects of their dynamic because that’s where the growth and story come from. their canon relationship arc wouldn’t be complete without it. so i do enjoy the enemies-(to friends)-to lovers of it all, it’s just that’s not what i generally am looking for in ships lmao. for me, it’s an outlier!

this post is definitely not about bashing other zutara shippers, let it be known, i want to be clear about that. it’s just born of general frustration and bafflement that zutara shippers are seen by antis as a monolith who can only possibly ship it because of their interest in a certain trope—when it’s not even the one i usually go for. lmao.

#zutara #wanted to be clear about this not being meant to bash other zutara shippers bc like #i’ve seen certain shippers get on a high horse about shipping it the ‘right way’#and that doesn’t agree with me #and isn’t the point i’m trying to make here #atla #fandom critical

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hiorintruther · 6 months ago

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An Updated ‘Reasons Why I Ship Hiorin’ — Because It’s Been Ages Since I Made The First One And I’ve Had More Thoughts (and we got more moments!)

Aka: can you tell this ship makes me mentally unwell?

Hi again! It’s been a while. I did make one of these long posts a while back outlining why I choose to ship hiorin even though they’ve barely interacted and on the surface don’t look like they’d make sense at all. Since then, hiorin has gained quite a few shippers in the fandom and I keep thinking about the ship, especially with the Bastard Munchen vs PXG game FINALLY giving us some new crumbs. Unsurprisingly, ever since making the first post I’ve also had a lot more ideas about the dynamic, its potential, some more connections between them that I never touched on before, etc… and rather than editing the other post I thought it would be easier to just make a new one.

Some stuff I go over here might be familiar from the first post. I want this to be a kind of hub for any and all of my hiorin interpretations, analysis, trivia, headcanons, ‘theories’ (which I don’t think will be canon but the narrative potential for them is through the roof) and anything else I think is relevant to the ship. Feel free to jump around and read whatever is most interesting for you. Hiorin is a ship that, for me, is built on mountains of untapped potential. I just want to bring that potential to light all in one place.

Note: for this post I’ll only use information that has been written by Kaneshiro, drawn by Nomura or Sanomiya, or has otherwise been green-lit by Kaneshiro as canon. Merch collabs, voice actor QnAs, the PWC game etc… for me do not count as canon and I won’t use them. Also, the 10-image limit is biting my ass so my formatting for certain bits might be a bit all over the place. Apologies.

So without further ado. Let’s start! Enjoy the yap sesh!

Part 1 — The Manga Canon

Hiorin get their (very sparse and brief) interactions mostly from the Third Selection Arc (chapters 87-108) and the U20 arc (chapters 109-151). We’re also recently getting some new moments in the BM vs PXG match (chapters 250-present).

First off: the tryouts. It’s implied here that Hiori and Rin have never met, as Hiori notices Isagi’s response to Rin and asks if Isagi knows who Rin is. Rin also doesn’t acknowledge Hiori in any way here, so we can presume they’re strangers (although some shippers like to headcanon that they met during the first selection).

That being said during the match, after Isagi has been thoroughly shut down by Karasu, Rin turns his attention to Hiori as a teammate to help him get the ball up the field. Rin has never seen Hiori play before (as far as we know). They’ve never even talked. They’re barely getting familiar with each other’s play styles. And yet, they immediately link up to form a clean back and forth that optimises Rin’s play style. In fact, this duo helps Rin score 1 goal, and it would have helped Rin score 2 had Shidou not rudely interrupted the second.

It’s so deadly that Otoya has to intervene specifically to break them up, so that they can no longer continue their one-two passes up the field and threaten to go for another goal. (Also notice in this page below how as soon as the kickoff happens, Hiori is already running into position in the background. He understands what Rin wants to do).

Not only did Hiori and Rin naturally form a link-up, but Hiori was also fully capable of keeping up with Rin, something Nanase admitted he struggled with during this match and even Isagi was struggling with as well, since later on we see Isagi fail to intercept one of Hiori’s passes due to not being able to reach it in time (which presumably Rin would have been able to were he in Isagi’s position). So, from what we see of Hiori and Rin in this match, they’re on a similar wavelength in terms of skills, field vision and gameplay, and are naturally able to link up even as strangers. I’ll note here that neither of them were playing at full power — Hiori was playing on 0 motivation, and Rin was still utilising his Puppeteer play style instead of his Destroyer. More on this later in the ‘Headcanons’ section.

After the Tryouts, we next see them interact in the U20 match. We start with a brief callback to their tryouts link up in chapter 132, where Rin passes to Hiori. Hiori is acting as a relay between Isagi and Rin, which in my opinion would be a good way to utilise him after the NEL. Whether or not that’s how Kaneshiro chooses to use him in the future is anyone’s guess though.

The next big moment comes in chapter 140, after Shidou has kicked Rin in the face and the game has briefly paused. I think this is by far the most ‘iconic’ hiorin moment. While Isagi is analysing the previous play and Karasu is arguing with the ref, Hiori is the only one who actually checks on Rin. Even Bachira and Reo were right next to Rin and neither of them go to him. Hiori was further down the field but he moved to help Rin first. Not only is he gentle with and worried for Rin, but by some miracle Rin actually accepts his help! It feels almost out of character, given how angry Rin is for the rest of the match, but for this very brief moment he lets Hiori help him up and reassures him that he’s ‘fine’ (yeah sure buddy…).

For many this is the main ‘ooooooh’ moment with hiorin. But what if I told you it actually happens a second time this match? After Aiku goes rogue in chapter 142 and tries to score a goal, Rin ends up slide-tackling him to prevent it. And once again, if you look in the background of the panels following the interception in chapter 143, who is it helping Rin stand? It’s Hiori. And this time they actually hold hands!

The final hiorin moment in the U20 match comes soon after this in chapter 144, when Rin is about to enter his Destroyer mode. When Rin enters Destroyer mode, Hiori is in possession of the ball and so Rin steals it from him in a completely unpredictable move that had everyone stunned.

The U20 match moments, for many of us hiorin shippers, felt like the last time we’d ever see them properly interact. I at least had zero hopes for PXG. But oh boy was I wrong! Kaneshiro might not realise the dynamic he’s setting up with this duo but I’m gonna milk every interaction for what they’re worth! And so with that, I’ll bring you to the BM vs PXG match (note: currently still ongoing, so I’ll update this section as we get more moments). Since the U20 match, we’ve had some changes. The biggest one is Hiori’s personality. After going through his arc in Ubers, Hiori has become more outspoken and confident, playing into his ‘Ultra-Sadist’ style and being more than happy to speak his mind. He’s more argumentative and can whip up a good piece of trash talk (my gamer boy fr!). We see this on full display in chapter 251 when he completely shuts down Rin’s goal opportunity because Rin was too focussed on Isagi to see the bigger picture of the match. Hiori turns around, points at Rin, and tells him “if ya want a goal… come at me with an unpredictable script!”

Notice here how he isn’t simply putting Rin down for not being able to score. Hiori may be taunting Rin, perhaps getting over-confident, but he does still technically give Rin helpful advice. In a previous panel he explains how he was able to read Rin because Rin was too focussed on Isagi, and in combination with Hiori’s ‘unpredictable script’ line it forms some rather blunt and rude but nevertheless useful advice. Hiori is telling Rin exactly how to get past him and what Rin needs to do to improve. Notice the focus on unpredictability. I personally think this is a line foreshadowing Rin’s Destroyer mode, even if Hiori himself is unaware of it. Even if it’s not foreshadowing, Hiori’s advice is reasonable and Rin should listen to it.

The next moment we have of them together is from chapter 259, where Hiori is aided by Raichi to block Rin in a 2-person press, causing Rin to lose the ball. From a purely indulgent, shipping perspective, notice how Hiori’s and Rin’s legs are touching, their hands are on each other’s chests and they’re looking at each other. Raichi is just there lol.

Next we have chapter 270, where Rin has started to awaken his Destroyer and is barrelling his way through BM’s various players. Hiori is one of the players Rin gets past with ease. Rin gets past him with a rainbow flick, to which Hiori acknowledges Rin awakening by saying ‘he is good’. Note here that he is the only player on BM’s side to get actual dialogue in response to Rin overpowering them.

And as of right now, the latest interaction comes from chapter 273. Rin has entered Destroyer mode and has completely overwhelmed Hiori. Isagi actually says in this chapter that Rin has become someone he can’t analyse, a completely unreadable beast of a player. I think this means the ‘unpredictable script’ Hiori spoke of truly is the Destroyer, and Rin has finally been able to get past Hiori with it.

This may be it for their canon interactions, however it’s far from all the canon information we have about them that’s interesting for the dynamic. A big part of the hiorin ship is about looking at their individual information and drawing together similarities and/or parallels. While on the surface they seem very different, almost opposites, digging a little deeper reveals a lot of small coincidences about them that build up to make you realise that they’re a lot more similar than you might initially think.

Part 2 — Where Hiori and Rin Align

Analytical players. Both of them are capable of deeply analytical play styles that utilises field vision and high levels of technical skills. This way of playing doesn’t rely on brute strength or pure intimidation to get through the opponents’ defence, rather analysis, playing with and overcoming their opponents with strategy and out-playing their opponents with sheer levels of skill. This similarity is likely what led to them to be able to so easily link up when they first met. Rin is however also capable of being the Destroyer, which leads me to my second point below.

Sadism. Both are known sadists. Rin’s Destroyer mode is particularly sadistic, aiming to destroy in every way to the point where he will give up goal opportunities to destroy even more. In general, he revels in being at the top, destroying others under him. He’s open with his insults and destroys chaotically, looking for breaks in his opponents’ defence and completely tearing them down until there’s no hope of his opponents winning. Meanwhile Hiori is a self-proclaimed “ultra-sadist”. After his arc, he enjoys watching his opponents scramble to try and keep up with him only to be destroyed by his top-tier plays, especially in a ‘best play’ scenario with his chosen striker of the moment. He’s also not loyal to any one striker and will leave them behind if they’re not playing up to his standards or goal vision. Hiori’s sadism also manifests as him teasing his friends, as we see in chapter 241 when he jokingly teases Isagi for getting shipped with Kaiser by BLTV fans.

Sae connections. Rin’s connections to Sae are obvious, since they’re brothers and Sae is the cornerstone of Rin’s character arc. Hiori also has connections to Sae though. He’s been compared to Sae twice in-universe, once by Sendou in chapter 129 who said his passes had the same level of skill as Sae’s, and once by Yukimiya in chapter 241 who thinks Hiori’s ultra-sadist mindset is similar to Sae’s. In the Egoist Bible 2, Hiori states that he admires Sae as a player when answering the question ‘who has the best crossing skills’.

Replacements. In Rin’s light novel, he tells Sae that once Sae is gone, he’ll “find a replacement”. In chapter 239, Hiori tells Isagi that he won’t just be loyal to Isagi and will happily replace him with another striker should they be in a better position for Hiori’s vision.

They’re both gamers. Obviously we know Hiori is one. That’s been a big part of his character ever since we first met him. In his Egoist Bible profile, he states that he plays many genres, from JRPGs to rhythm games. However, Rin also plays video games, specifically horror games. We get this info from both the Egoist Bible and his prequel light novel, where it explains that he plays horror games to de-stress at night: (chapter 2) “… even games, should be chilling and scary. Playing horror games alone at night is quite thrilling”.

Horror, gore and zombies. As well as playing horror games to de-stress, it’s explained in the Egoist Bible and Rin’s light novel that he watches horror movies for the same reason: (chapter 2) “When he’s done, he watches a horror movie and then goes to bed. This is his daily routine. For some reason, since Sae has been gone, he only watches horror movies. Movies, videos …”. The light novel slightly expands on this to specify that he enjoys splatter films, as well as showing an illustration of him watching rather a gory zombie movie: (chapter 4) “Lately, he's been into splatter films. The one where a killer comes out with an electric saw and a big-ass ax, then blood splatters all over the place. The one where a killer chases you no matter how hard you try to escape, and if you get caught, you end up being dismembered. His heart is pounding, but he’s not the type to show on his face, so Rin watching the slaughter scene without any expression on his face is much more horrifying”. Likewise, Hiori is shown in chapter 206 playing a zombie shooter in which he imagines the zombies becoming his parents and he violently kills them. We see his inner monologue of this in his prequel light novel, showing the depths of how much he wants them to suffer: (chapter 6) “Before he knew it, in his imagination, his parents became zombies. His father and mother are coming towards him, laughing. He shoots without hesitation. Bang! Headshot. The bullet that entered the father's jaw blew off the back of his head. Bang! Bang! His mother's eyeballs pop out and there's a hole in her chest. He aims for vital spots with rapid fire, but they don't fall easily because they're zombies”. His Egoist Bible also confirms that he plays Dead By Daylight, which is a multiplayer horror game. Bonus point: Hiori’s favourite movie, Ready Player One, features an important series of scenes where the main characters have to explore a replica of the hotel from The Shining. The Shining is Rin’s favourite movie.

Solitude. Rin is ranked as the most anti-social member of Blue Lock in the Egoist Bible. He says he “doesn’t have time for lukewarm conversations” (although I do think on some level he longs for approval and love from someone, given how much he craves his brother’s attention). He is also one of the only characters who genuinely has no friends in Blue Lock. He tolerated Bachira for a time and trained Nanase begrudgingly, but no one is very close with him at all. Now, at a glance Hiori might seem far more social. He has a lot of friends and seems to enjoy hanging out with them. However, in his Egoist Bible entry it was revealed that his ideal type in a romantic partner is “someone who can leave me alone”. The wording he used — 放置し合えるん — seems to imply a reciprocal nature of this ‘leaving alone’, ie ‘you leave me alone, I’ll leave you alone’. Now tell me that arrangement wouldn’t work perfectly for Rin? Hiori is also shown in chapter 172 (which is before his character arc) spending time alone in the BM dorms while the others are out training. Furthermore, in Karasu’s ‘a day in Blue Lock’ in The Egoist Bible 2, he states that he and Hiori were in the communal bath together but did not talk or interact, and this was fine. While Hiori can enjoy socialising, he also needs plenty of time to himself to the point where it becomes a deal-breaker in a relationship for him.

Fetish. Hiori’s fetish according to the Egoist Bible is ‘fractured girl fetish’ and seems to refer to seeing injuries bandaged up (given that the actress he uses as an example wears a cast on her arm in the movie he’s referencing). Out of all the characters in Blue Lock, Rin is the one we’ve seen get injured multiple times, and in chapter 271 it was confirmed that this is a part of his nature. This was a part of him that was disapproved of by his parents and classmates, so Hiori actually liking it would be a massive relief.

Ochazuke (tea on rice). Rin’s favourite food according to the Egoist Bible is ochazuke, specifically taichazuke. In the Episode Rin extra chapter we see him going to enjoy some taichazuke at a traditional restaurant because he was hungry for ochazuke. When Hiori was asked in the Egoist Bible 2 what his favourite accompaniment for rice is, he replied that it’s the ochazuke brand Nagatanien.

Stripes. Rin’s casual outfits for both the Shibuya collab (designed by Nomura) and Episode Rin feature a striped/ribbed pattern. Likewise, Hiori’s casual pyjamas, childhood design and one of Nomura’s coaster designs feature him wearing striped clothing.

Egoist Bible rankings. In the Egoist Bible 2, they were ranked first and second most likely to have psychic powers. Hiori was also voted the best listener, meanwhile Rin was voted the worst.

Eyelashes. Both of them have long lashes. That’s kinda it for this one lol.

Water connections. Hiori’s favourite season is the rainy season and he has been referred to as ‘water coloured’ in the manga due to his hair colour (it means ‘cyan’ in Japanese — see point 14). Rin’s aura is water and he is regularly connected to the sea in his hometown of Kamakura.

Name kanji (yes, I’m in this deep). In Rin’s surname, the kanji 糸 means ‘thread/yarn’. In Hiori’s surname, the kanji 織 means ‘weaver’. Both of them have kanji relating to weaving, likely in relation to both Rin’s Puppeteer play style (and Sae’s insane control of the midfield), and Hiori’s way of ‘weaving’ together a best play through his skills (and his parents ‘weaving’ his life for him rather than letting him control it himself). To get even more conspiracy theorist-y, when Charles meets Hiori he calls Hiori “水色お兄さん” — literally ‘water-coloured big brother’, likely in relation to his hair colour because 水色 can also mean ‘cyan’. To keep it on the topic of water though, whose aura is made of water? That’s right. Rin’s! (yes I know this is really grasping at straws but I did say this post was for EVERYTHING hiorin).

A wild one here — dates. The exact age gap between Hiori and Rin is 9 months 9 days. 09/09 is Rin’s birthday.

Part 3 — Family Relationships: Love, Expectations and Abandonment

Rin and Hiori both have relationships with particular members of their family that are similar and also unique among the rest of the cast. For Rin, it’s his relationship with Sae. For Hiori, it’s his relationship with his parents.

To begin with Hiori, his parents only wanted a child who could fulfil their dream of being number one in the world at a particular sport. They held this expectation of him throughout his whole life, pretending to genuinely care about and love him when in reality all they wanted was for him to be the best. If he tried to step out of line, they’d become monstrous, as seen in his light novel: (chapter 2) “Can I take a day off from soccer tomorrow and go play with my friends?” As soon as he said this, the smiles disappeared from his parents’ faces. His mother looked very surprised, and then she made the scariest face he's ever seen. “......!” He doesn’t remember what she said. He just remembers that he was scolded terribly. After that, he was hugged tightly. “Hiori, you are born to be the best at soccer.” “You can play with other kids anytime you want.” “But if you don’t do soccer properly from now on, you will never be the best.” His mother was desperate. His father was behind her, looking sadly at Hiori. “Please, Hiori, trust us and play soccer.” Hiori felt that he had done something very wrong. … What should I do? I said something bad. I'm sorry. The air was stifling, as if he had been locked in a room full of needles. He felt like he would get hurt if he moved, so all Hiori could do was nod.” We also see the extent of this in chapter 206, when Hiori overhears his parents threatening to get a divorce if he isn’t the best. This makes him realise that if he doesn’t fulfil their expectations, his parents don’t want him. In essence, they would abandon him, letting their family fall apart and blaming it all on him.

With Rin, it’s a bit more complicated. His relationship with his older brother Sae is still pretty up in the air as to what really happened from Sae’s perspective. We need to distinguish between what actually happened (which is difficult to determine as of right now) and what Rin interpreted as happening. From his perspective, he has a moment in chapter 125 where he thinks Sae pretended to love him while they were growing up, only using him as a stepping stone to get to the world stage. After that had been achieved, Rin presumes was abandoned. This is unlikely true though (even if it’s tricky to discern for now). This is where I cry on deaf ears for a Sae light novel or spin-off chapter, anything to get his side of the story. My current PERSONAL interpretation of canon is that Sae still loves Rin, however he knows that Rin’s desire to be the world’s best as a duo is impossible, and his way of trying to ween Rin off such a dream was to sever their relationship, he just went about it in perhaps the worst way possible. No matter what really happened though, I’m more interested in what Rin interpreted from being abandoned, which is a mix of hatred and confusion but also still a desire for recognition.

This to me reads as very similar to what Hiori’s relationship with his parents used to be before his arc. Hiori hated his parents. He wished death upon them. And yet, despite that he kept fighting for what they wanted, fulfilling their expectations because he was so afraid that if he didn’t, all the blame would be placed on him for their family falling apart. Rin’s situation is sort of a dark mirror to Hiori’s, where instead of just fearing that abandonment, Rin was abandoned, with all the blame being placed on him by Sae. And just like Hiori, until his own awakening took place he himself was fighting for Sae’s approval again, trying to find any way he can to fulfil Sae’s expectations. We see this in the way Rin chose Isagi to be his rival after the U20 match not because of anything in particular that Isagi has done, but because Sae acknowledged Isagi. We see Rin’s desire for love in the way he travelled to Tokyo in the Episode Rin extra chapter to possibly watch Sae’s match, even though they’d already fallen out by that point. We even saw this limitation as recently as chapter 273, where Rin gives up a goal opportunity because, to him, Sae wouldn’t approve of it. His awakening has hopefully gone in a similar direction to Hiori’s, where he is now learning to play for himself.

Rin and Hiori both strove for love from their families and are now in the process of breaking from this mindset and fight only for themselves. This complicated relationship with love, expectations and abandonment is what draws me to a lot of hiorin’s potential. They both exist along a trajectory of breaking free from their families’ expectations, with Hiori having decided to not try to appease his family anymore and Rin having just started to unlock the true depths of his destruction without the need for Sae.

Part 4 — Headcanons: Some Fun Ideas

Anything from this point on is pure headcanon, taking into account all the canon information listed in the previous sections. This is NOT ‘speculation’. I genuinely don’t think any of this will be canon. Kaneshiro hasn’t consciously laid the groundwork for Rin and Hiori to interact but he has done so by accident and all the pieces are in place. This section is all about some fun ideas I’ve had about hiorin, mostly trying to use canon as a strong basis so that they make sense. These can range from canon-adjacent to domestic AU material, it’s a whole mix really. I’ll probably come back to this bit every now and again to update it with new ideas I have, so keep an eye out for that.

A shared understanding. Since they’re both familiar with what they perceive to be feelings of false love from family members, it creates a situation where they can understand why they act the way they do better than anyone else. I hc that this would help them to more naturally form link-ups on the field, since they’d be in tune with each other’s mental states as well as general play styles. Off-field they’d be able to recognise when something has ticked the other off or resurfaced some unpleasant memories. I don’t think they’d really be ones to talk about their family traumas to each other openly, but they’d have an understanding of the things they do find out and wouldn’t think the other is overreacting, especially Hiori understanding Rin. Hiori was voted the best listener, so while Rin likely would not open up much, if at all, Hiori would always be willing to listen to him. While I think it’s good that Rin has friends like Nanase who he can be more chilled out with, I personally prefer the idea that his partner is someone who can actually understand the depths of his issues and sit with him in the eye of the storm until it passes, rather than trying to just ‘fix’ him without being able to understand him properly.

Touch-starved and both slow to physical affection. Since they’re both introverted and Rin is emotionally constipated as hell, they aren’t really a couple that would be very into PDA. Not even hand-holding. But it doesn’t really matter for them. They’re both not very used to that sort of physical comfort especially in the presence of others. However, while I think in general Rin might be a bit more reluctant to initiate intimacy than Hiori, I do think he’d still be more inclined to initiate hugs. Why Rin of all people? Because he grew up with a sibling. And he was a younger sibling at that. On some level he would have received attention from Sae while their relationship was still good, even if only a little bit. Hiori on the other hand grew up an only child in a household where hugs and doting were used as a tool to manipulate him. He’d likely not be used to the idea of hugs as a genuine show of affection. But Rin’s hugs are always genuine and often given out sparingly and tentatively, after a lot of hesitation. They’re both slow to physical affection but they’d find a way to navigate their wants and needs together, taking their time.

All-nighter horror dates. Be it playing co-op horror games or binging horror movies in the dark, I think they’d both prefer that as a date night over going out to a restaurant. It’s an activity they can both have fun with as a shared interest, just the two of them, alone at home with no need to even leave the house. They can let themselves get more passionate and competitive (and sadistic) while playing horror games too. I particularly think they would play Dead By Daylight together a lot, with Hiori maining a killer since he said that’s what he would play in the Egoist Bible 2.0 and Rin playing a survivor since that allows him to fight for his life until death, something he strives for in life.

Owl eyes. According to the Egoist Bible, Rin’s favourite animal is owls (a lot of Nomura’s Rin drawings also feature owls, he has a plushie of an owl in chapter 270 and he wears a ‘fukurou’ (owl) bag in the Episode Rin extra chapter). It is also a fandom-wide thing to say that Hiori has giant eyes. While most people compare Hiori’s eyes to bugs, I’d like to offer comparing them to owl eyes — giant, round, staring into your soul maybe a bit too much. Hiori has owl eyes and Rin loves owls, so I headcanon that Rin would love Hiori’s large, curious eyes more than anyone.

Yoga together. While we only have canonical confirmation that Rin both regularly does yoga and is good at it, I hc that Hiori would also be quite good at it due to his parents likely drilling him with intense schedules and being helicopter parents about his health. Yoga would likely fall into it somewhere as a cool-down activity and a good way to exercise on rainy days. While Hiori initially wouldn’t find yoga fun to do with Rin due to his negative associations with it, I feel like over time it could be a nice bonding activity for the two of them. It requires minimal talking if they’re doing their own routines, and as long as Hiori isn’t messing up the moves I think Rin would tolerate the two of them existing in the same space. At the very least, Hiori wouldn’t try to one-up Rin with moves he can’t do and topple onto Rin as a result (looking at you, Isagi…). They wouldn’t do couples yoga though, just their own thing in the same space.

Sharing food. In the Twitter QnAs, it states that Hiori’s favourite food is salt-grilled saury (saury shiyoyaki) “including the bitter bits”. His least favourite food is cotton candy because “it’s just sugar”. Therefore, I hc that he tends to enjoy bitter food while disliking sweet food. In contrast, we know that Rin quite likes sweet food because he used to eat ice cream with Sae on the way home from practice, plus in the Episode Rin extra chapter he enjoys most blanc at a dessert cafe. Because of this difference in tastes, I like to hc Hiori giving any sweet food Blue Lock offers in their meals to Rin. Likewise, if the main meal Rin is given is ever burnt or charred too much for his liking, he gives the charred bits to Hiori since he knows Hiori will eat them so the food won’t be wasted.

Tea and coffee. As an addendum to the previous hc, I think Hiori would be a coffee drinker and Rin would be a tea drinker. This is because coffee tends to be more bitter, especially ones without sugar like espressos, so I can see Hiori preferring them to tea. There’s also the idea that ochazuke is made with tea, which is a bonus for Rin liking tea over coffee.

Cooking. Last food-related one I promise! While Hiori likely has a ton of technical knowledge about nutrition, dieting, calorie counting etc… due to his mother’s frenzied control of his diet growing up, I headcanon that he doesn’t actually have a clue how to cook. Once again, this is because of his parents being overprotective and worrying that he’d injure himself with a kitchen knife or burn himself on the stovetop. So he has zero clue about where to start in the kitchen. On the flip-side, while Rin isn’t the best cook in the world I reckon he’d have somewhat of an idea of how to cook the basics, plus he likely also has knowledge of dieting and nutrition for the sake of his own health. So while they’d both have things to learn in the kitchen, it would be Rin doing more of the actual cooking while Hiori decides what meals to eat to optimise their health and training.

A joint-aura that’s a blizzard — in the event that they ever were to team up on the field, I think that the aura they’d give off together should be a blizzard. It makes sense to me for them to have this because Hiori has ice associations with the kanji 氷 in his surname, which means ‘ice’, and in chapter 239 when he gives his monologue about finding a reason to play, a metaphorical key appears with a snowflake on it to symbolise his newfound resolve. Rin’s connections to snow are less positive though, since it was snowing the day that Sae abandoned him. I think making their joint aura a blizzard could symbolise both Hiori’s ultra-sadist resolve to play, and Rin finally being able to move on from Sae to associate the snow with his sadistic determination. A snowstorm joint-aura would also emphasise the pair of them having a sadistic, destructive take-down of their opponents.

Hurt/comfort. Given Hiori’s fetish and Rin’s predisposition to violence and injury, I love the idea of Hiori being the one to bandage Rin up when he gets hurt. From the U20 match we know that Hiori’s first instinct is to ask Rin if he’s alright and help him, but since his fetish is for this sort of thing I highly doubt he would scold Rin, chastise him or tell him to try his best not to get hurt anymore. Rather, he would accept Rin the way he is, tend to his injuries without pity or complaint, and Rin would be able to have someone be there for him who doesn’t look down on him for being destructive. We see in Rin’s flashback chapters during PXG that he was nervous about getting scolded by his parents, which is why I think Hiori’s acceptance would be so important to him.

Hiori has a type. His canon type is already ‘someone who will leave me alone’ as I previously discussed in section 2. However, I do like to semi-jokingly say that his type is also ‘dark-haired, analytical guys with an attitude who are really good at football’. Obviously this is meant to refer mostly to Isagi and Karasu (we’ve all seen the heart-eyes you give them, Hiori!), but it is amusing to me that the description also fits Rin perfectly.

Part 5 — Transformative Works I Recommend For New Shippers

These are just some of my favourite fanfics all linked together in one place. I’ll start with a shameless plug of my own fic:

14 Days To NOT Fall In Love (but guess who did anyway)

Summary: This annoyingly mandated break of Ego's was only fourteen days long. That would never be enough time for Rin to fall for this aggravatingly sweet, understanding, level-headed, cyan-haired gamer boy... Okay, maybe he'd need to exercise SOME restraint. Aka: how Rin and Hiori become mutually pining idiots after the U-20 match through a combination of video games, late night discord calls and learning that perhaps they're not all that different after all.

(Chapters: 10 , Word Count: 67088 , Rating: T)

And now for my personal favourites I think new shippers will enjoy, in no particular order (if any of the authors see this and have tumblrs you want me to tag, lmk!):

catch us in the morning by transrightssokka (kellallyourfriends)

Summary: Hiori looks down and brings his hand up to his mouth, hiding a faint smile. “You don’t wanna go home, do you?” “No shit, I don’t,” Rin says. He’d rather sleep on the sidewalk than spend the next two weeks with Sae. Hiori is silent for a minute. His pretty eyes flick to his feet. Up to the back of the seat in front of them. Over to Rin. “So.” “So?” Rin says. Hiori lowers his voice. “So, what if we didn’t?”

(Chapters: 3 , Word Count: 27206 , Rated: M)

Even When It’s Starless by saturnshots

Summary: Everyone’s had an imaginary friend or two — it’s not often they change the course of your life, but who says being imaginary could stop them from bringing your dreams come true?

(Chapters: 1 , Word Count: 2838 , Rating: G)

sine wave by starstruckdove

Summary: Rin discovers Bachira’s “super secret surprise” sooner than he’d thought. There’s a new boy standing next to Ego at practice, and Rin knows he’s new because each of his unfortunate teammates have made their presence (loudly and raucously) known in his life. The boy has a nice face–wide eyes and soft mouth, all rounded corners instead of sharp edges. His hair is a shocking shade of blue and Rin finds it almost familiar. “This is your new manager,” Ego says with about as much energy as a dead battery.

(Chapters: 1 , Word Count: 8990 , Rated: T)

Daydreaming by em_hiorin

Summary: Hiori can’t seem to concentrate during practice, as a certain Itoshi has been plaguing his mind.

(Chapters: 1 , Word Count: 1560 , Rating: G)

My family thinks we’re dating. by akiangelsolos

Summary: “Oh, I see.” His mother hummed, placing her silver fork down on the table. “You must be upset, Hiori hasn’t come over in a while. You have to be lonely without your boyfriend around.” “I’m not lonely-” Rin shot his eyes at his mom, “What did you just say?”

(Chapters: 2 , Word Count: 5486 , Rating: G)

Part 6 — Wow, You Made It This Far? Congratulations And Thank You!

If you’ve made it this far, then I am both immensely thankful and I applaud you. Seriously, thank you for putting up with my insane, delusional brainrot over this silly rarepair that has barely any canon backing to speak of. Hopefully if anything, you now understand why people are starting to take interest in the ship (or at least why I enjoy it). And if you’re a shipper now, welcome to the club! You will now have to watch Hiori and Rin never affect each other’s development, never interact in any meaningful capacity and you’ll be eternally bitter about it 👍. For any aspiring fic writers, I hope this can be a nice hub of info for all of you if you want to consult the hiorin ‘dynamic’ (i say in quotations because let’s face it, I made up like 95% of the dynamic based on analysis and a canon dynamic doesn’t actually exist). Also, bear in mind that in the off chance we do get some more moments, I plan to update this post. So you may end up being subject to even more brainrot in the future.

Until that day comes though, I can only thank you once again. Hiorin is my otp and no matter how much Kaneshiro doesn’t make it come to fruition, he will have to try incredibly hard to make me stop shipping them. The dynamic can change. They can become more and more ‘incompatible’. I don’t care. If hiorin has no shippers, I have passed on from this world.

#blue lock #bllk #hiorin #hiori yo #itoshi rin #blue lock hiori #blue lock rin #FINALLY this post is finished!!!#I’ve been working on it for weeks #it’s mostly for myself ngl #just a nice place to compile all my screaming into one clump #might as well share it with the world yk?#I hope it makes even a modicum of sense to any unsuspecting readers who don’t ship it #rinhio #rnho

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shepherds-of-haven · 9 months ago

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Hiya! Sorry to bother, I really love SoH and I'm sure you hear this all the time but your writing is so amazing I can't help but come back and reread what's available just for fun! ♥

I have a small wonder, My main MC is going for exRed romance just full steam no eyes for anyone else and it's been a fun ride to watch them be so affectionate yet hesitant I gotta wonder though what the rest of the gang thinks having to watch their ridiculous dance? (I fully believe chase has a betting pool for when they get together.)

In Red's case, I think he's naturally affectionate/subtle/socially-mindful enough to not come off as stupidly over-the-top with his feelings in a really obvious or public way; because he's proceeding cautiously with an ex-MC and deliberately "feeling things out" without wanting to make them uncomfortable/make a fool out of himself, I don't think it'd be as obvious to others what's going on between him and MC unless they went to school with them both and witnessed the history there? (AKA Pan, Neon, etc.). For everyone else, it's:

Blade: literally doesn't think anything of it (unless he's also romantically interested in MC)--from his perspective, Red is equally friendly/comfortable/flirtatious with pretty much everyone, plus it would make sense that their being old friends/former lovers would come with certain closeness. In other words, he's not thinking about it

Trouble: took Red and MC at their word and just thinks they dated when they were teens, does not notice anything remarkable going on between them, but he can be naturally a bit dense in that area (though sometimes he isn't)

Tallys: oh my god just hook up already, the tension is starting to get under her skin lol she's of the camp that they should just jump each other and get it over with

Shery: she's 👀 and watching with bated breath, and subtly concocting excuses for them to be together, like "oh MC I needed to deliver a message to Red in his lab, but I'm "busy", could you please let him know so-and-so while I go do this other thing?"

Riel: he's actually broached the topic with Red before out of curiosity because the romantic tension was sooooo obvious to him: it was a really brief conversation because Red was caught so off-guard by Riel going "so are you going to tell MC you still have feelings for them/do you want to try things again?" that he just sort of looked at Riel blankly, but they sort of fumbled their way through a conversation where Red was sort of airing his thoughts/asking for advice and Riel was just like clinically listening?? and then they never talked about it again, lol. It's not like Riel ships them, he was just interested in what was going through Red's head at the time, and now he doesn't really care anymore, whatever happens is between them! but now and again Red will look up from subtle flirting with MC, catch Riel's eye, and Riel will have this unimpressed face like 🙄

Chase: gleefully has a (private) betting pool and trolls Red/the two of them as often as he possibly can without entering the zone of over-interference, much like an ecologist trying to observe a rare animal without over-affecting its natural behavior

Ayla: she notices if she's romantically interested in MC, but otherwise shelves their behavior as "things exes/old friends must do, which I wouldn't have any personal experience with, so I guess that makes sense to me" and doesn't give much romantic significance to the way they act around each other, that just must be how it is! 🤷🏻‍♀️ She'd be really surprised if someone like Lavinet was like, "Oh, darling, they are obviously still mad about each other..." Ayla: "oh, I just thought their whole thing was how all former lovers who stayed friends acted." Lavinet and Briony: noooooo

Briony: she is peak shipper for ex!Red and MC, she picks up on things right away and is watching both of them with her ponytail whipping back and forth like she's at a tennis match 👀, she's squealing and swooning internally every time they smile over a book together and is like barely keeping things together out of respect to them...

Lavinet: she's amused and intrigued by what's going on, ex-lovers who reunite years later is so inherently romantic, it's like something out of a drama!!! She's smirking and making sly comments here and there to sort of nudge things along now and then, but otherwise she subscribes to the "leave no trace" observing from a distance mentality rather than an active interference (unless her interference is specifically requested, in which case she's all hands on deck)!

Halek: didn't even realize they're exes, I think because no one told him or he wasn't paying attention, he just thinks they're Like That (as in, they want to bang each other, obviously, he just figures they're dragging their feet about it because they work together or something)

#Shepherds of Haven #Red #MC #feelings about #Red Antiqua

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blackbird-brewster · 7 months ago

Text

Meta: Jemily Queerbaiting

With the huge influx of posts saying 'Jemily is gonna be canon', I really appreciated seeing this post because OP was completely correct. I didn't want to write an entire dissertation as a reply, so I'm making my own post with my personal opinion on this. (All sources are noted in footnotes)

Before I began this rant, for anyone who thinks this is anti-Jemily. It is not. I have shipped Jemily for 18 friggin years and that's never going to change. This post is specifically my thoughts about queer baiting.

First off, I need to note that the showrunners (and the cast members who use social media) KNOW what a huge queer following this show has and that's why we got pansexual Tara Lewis in S16 [1]. Which, in itself, was SOOOOOOO important!!! Our first canonically queer main in SIXTEEN seasons was a middle-aged Black woman!!! That's phenomenal. (The fact it was horrible rep, because they instantly ruined her relationships once her queerness served it's plot point is a whole other post entirely)

In my opinion, the 'big Jemily moment' Paget posted about on Twitter [2] (and AJ hinted at during a recent IG live) is simply queerbaiting to get people to watch S17. I know a lot of you are newer to the fandom and I love your enthusiasm, I really do, ship and let ship, but listen, let's be real, Jemily is not going to be made canon. The showrunners aren't going to suddenly say (after 17 seasons) 'Surprise, Jemily is endgame'. This show has never cared about queer rep and now that CBS/Paramount have already ticked their queer rep box with Tara, they won't be in any rush to add any other characters to it.

Please buckle in, I've got a lot of thoughts on this matter --

What is Queerbaiting?

If you aren't aware of what queerbaiting is, here's a good definition:

Historically, queerbaiting has carried two meanings: the first is an act of aggressive heterosexuality to shut down queer subtext on screen while still teasing and catering to the queer audience in advertising, public relations, and fan engagement strategies; the second is an existing homoerotic tension between two characters played up on screen while met with derision by the professionals behind the scenes. [3]

The Medium article quoted here is from 2017, a time when parasocial relationships were really starting to take over social media. In 2024, actors are now only a mention or tag away online, they have direct conversations with fans, and this process has allowed for an even deeper form of queerbaiting.

Oftentimes online, actors are asked directly about certain ships and while some ignore these questions (usually to avoid breaking their contracts or other repercussions), others (looking at you, Paget) choose to instead tease fans about queer ships. She's done this for years upon years and if I've learned anything in the past twenty-years of existing in fandom spaces it's this -- don't hold your breath. In it's original meaning, for something to be deemed as queerbaiting there had to be malicious, or at least, purposeful intent to string queer fans along by teasing them with suggestive content about the ship in question, while knowing this ship will never come to fruition in canon.

The thing to remember is, Paget and AJ aren't the only ones who know about Jemily shippers -- the network and showrunners are well aware of this ship too. When networks/showrunners figure out they have a strong sapphic fanbase, they love to use that to their advantage to get more viewers and higher ratings. Queerbaiting is a goldmine to keep fans watching long running shows, look at Rizzoli and Isles, Supergirl, and OUAT for examples of this.

Jemily and Queerbaiting:

Ever since Emily joined the BAU in S2 (2006), there have always been fans who ship JJ/Emily (shoutout to the old LJ forums!). Way before celebs were just a tweet away from fans, back when all our fics began with disclaimers so we wouldn't get sued by networks, we went to great lengths to keep our fanworks far removed from actors/showrunners attention.

As far as Jemily goes, this reply from Paget in a 2009 interview with TVGuide.com [4] (which has now been deleted from their site unfortunately, but there are quotes on Tumblr still [4.a]) confirmed some fans' worst fear -- the actors had found our fanworks online.

TVGuide.com: Of course, a band of fans want her to hook up with Hotch.

Brewster: I know! I didn't realize that fans make these videos on YouTube? A.J. Cook sent me a hilarious one that made it look like Prentiss and J.J. were having a secret lesbian affair. You know, when Hotch was blown up in the SUV, we shot this scene where he's in the hospital and I'm standing next to him, looking at his bleeding ear. Our director came in and said, "Paget, you're looking at Hotch like you're in love with him. It looks really weird." So now, every day, Thomas [Gibson] and I flutter our eyelids at each other.

This was the first time I recall anyone acknowledging Jemily shippers publicly and at the time (Jan 2009), the show was still in Season Four (just before CBS fired both AJ and Paget [5]). Paget genuinely said it's 'hilarious' that fans shipped JJ/Emily. Even now, I'll see people say 'We know Paget and AJ have seen Jemily fanvids, so they obviously ship it too' -- but those same people rarely acknowledge the full context of the original answer. Paget not only thought JJ/Emily were 'hilarious', but then she doubled down and turned her reply back to how she and Thomas liked to play up the chemistry between Emily/Hotch.

While no one can say for sure which video it was that AJ sent Paget, just knowing they were watching JJ/Emily fanvids sent a bit of a shockwave through the femslash side of the fandom. To some it felt like an invasion of privacy, fanworks are by fans for fans -- knowing the cast were poking around in fandom spaces added an extra layer of worry around what we fans were posting online. Fifteen years ago, it used to be quite taboo for actors to outwardly discuss shipping or other fanon for whatever show they were in, and we fans were usually comfortably removed from the actors altogether.

Of course, now it's the norm for fans and actors/showrunners to co-exist online and interact with one another. This connection has opened new ways for shows to queerbait their fans. Pretty much every show has some form of social media account now and there is no doubt that the people running those accounts keep up with the most popular ships and hashtags. Not to mention that actors are constantly barraged with questions about whether they ship their character with x,y,z, or whether they think a ship should be made canon, etc. These interactions only serve to benefit the shows themselves, because whether the conversation is for or against a certain ship, it's all just free publicity (Why do you think CM now has a TikTok account?)

Every time AJ or Paget say anything about Jemily, the queer side of the fandom loses their minds. But this has been going on for YEARS now and every single time, it turns out to be nothing but social media hype and queerbaiting. Remember this AJ post? [6] Or what about the notorious reply by Paget to a fan, where she talks about how she and AJ held hands under the table 'for the shippers' [7] I've seen this cycle over and over again, so perhaps I am cynical, but I'm not getting my hopes up that Jemily will ever seriously be canon.

It's widely known now, after both Kirsten [8] and Paget [9] have talked about it, that there was an early idea where Prentiss was supposed to be queer, but that was ultimately scraped before it ever made it on screen. For context, please remember, this show has been airing for nearly twenty years. It began in 2005, during the highly conservative Bush administration. Queer people didn't have rights in the US, we couldn't get married, we were rarely protected under discrimination laws, and we could even be fired for simply being queer (in some states). Diverse queer representation on screen was extremely limited to things like 'The L Word' and 'Queer as Folk' (both aired on Showtime, so they were behind a paywall. And as far as tLw goes, that show was extremely male-gaze focused and is horrible in nearly all regards if you try to rewatch it now). As far as prime time shows went, queer rep was even more rare. Which is why Emily wasn't queer from the get-go.

Yes, things have changed since 2006 in terms of queer rep on TV. We have a myriad of queer identities represented in TV and film nowadays, which is why I think it's so easy for newer fans to say 'lf she was supposed to be gay anyway, they should just make Emily queer in canon!' I know this is what fuels most fans' demands for Emily being confirmed queer, and I get it, I DO. I would be all for it! However, I do not, in one hundred years, actually believe that is going to happen after they already canonically queer confirmed Tara in S16. The fact we even got ONE queer character is ground-breaking for this show.

It's also worth noting, that in the time between Paget's departure in 2012 and her return in 2016, she became very active on Twitter. This was when more and more fans began asking her about Jemily and after Kirsten's AfterEllen interview, fans also pushed for Paget to address the possibility of Emily being gay. 'Pushed' is actually an understatement for some of the outright harassment she would receive. (AJ received some of this harassment too, but less so because she doesn't use social media ass often) Back then, neither of them replied to these things directly. Yet, no matter what either woman posted, the replies were full of Jemily stans begging for her acknowledgement. (Did you know 'stan' is literally a term coined for stalker fans?) I remember one time AJ's friend was missing and she posted info on her IG about it, you know what the replies were? People asking her about Jemily. It was genuinely sickening.

Within this context, it was no surprise to fans when Emily came back in S12 , she and JJ's friendship was seemingly erased. The two women were rarely on screen together in the late seasons, plus the writers saw fit to even give Emily not only one (Mark in London, but two, on-screen boyfriends for the first time in the entire series. I personally do not think these changes to Emily's character were coincidence, I saw the hellscape of what people would say to AJ and Paget online and I fully believe that upon Paget's return to the show, the showrunners purposely tried to distance JJ and Emily to dissuade the more abusive side of the fanbase.

Can I prove that, no. But it is the only reason I can think of as to why Emily S12+ seemingly didn't care about JJ anymore, despite their deep and meaningful friendship. I mean, they both CROSSED THE WORLD to go rescue each other in prior canon -- but when Emily comes back, they acted like they barely knew each other. This was even more prevalent in S16, when JJ's main storylines all revolved around Will, and Emily barely looked at JJ in the entirety of ten episodes. (Remember how Prentiss didn't even hug JJ after bomb, but she did go hug Luke?)

So, do Paget and AJ earnestly ship Jemily, or are they continuing the long tradition of queerbaiting us? Who fucking knows, not me. But based on the history of this fandom, I think I can make a safe bet. (Interestingly, if you search all of Paget's twitter for the word 'Jemily' [10] she only has 3 direct tweets mentioning the ship. I don't think it's a coincidence that two are within the past few months since they started filming S17 (the other one was a RT of Kirsten (who tagged something Jemily)

This is all to say --

Just because Paget and AJ have publicly talked about Jemily,, this doesn't mean it's ever going to happen on screen. And you know what, THAT'S OKAY!! There has been this constant outcry (after Tara became queer confirmed) of 'Do Emily next' or 'Why wasn't it Emily with a girlfriend!?' and 'Jemily needs to be canon in S17!' -- as if people believe their ships aren't worth anything unless they are canon.

That couldn't be further from the truth! Fandom is built on headcanons and fan interpretations and rare pairs and all types of shippers. Your ship does NOT need to be canon for you to enjoy it. I will ship Jemily forever, no matter what. I don't think there will be some magical queer plot in S17, at best, we might actually get to see Emily/JJ on screen together again and after the train wreck that was S16 -- I'll take whatever I can get.

And hey -- if I am completely wrong, if Erica Messer pulls a Korrasami out of her hat, I will be ecstatic. I will be happy to be proved wrong, but at the same time, I'm not going to lose sleep over it and I'm DEFINITELY not going to go hound the actors about it on social media.

Sources:

[1] 2022 Digital Spy article about the importance of Tara's coming out

[2] 04/18/24 Paget Tweet

[3] 2017 Queerbaiting article from medium.com

[4] 2009 Broken TVGuide link

[4.a] Tumblr quote from the above TVGuide Interview

[5] 2010 Kirsten interview screenrant.com

[6] 2019 AJ Instagram Post

[7] 2020 Paget video on Twitter (via @karasluthqr)

[8] 2015 Kirsten interview AfterEllen.com

[9] 2016 Paget Interview CriminalMindsFans.com

[10] @PagetPaget search 'Jemily'

#criminal minds #emily prentiss #jennifer jareau #paget brewster #aj cook #cm commentary #queerbaiting #cm meta #criminal minds evolution #cm evolution #my writing #long post

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