#canon batfam characterisations

[avayarising]

OK , from the year or so I’ve been reading comics, here’s my impression of each character. (Note that they are all very intelligent, all very skilled martial artists, all adrenaline junkies, and all a little too self-sacrificial. And they all come with bucketloads of trauma.)

Bruce: The first thing you have to know about Bruce is that he was raised by Alfred who had no clue what he was doing and who very much failed to model any sort of emotional openness. Full of self-loathing and survivor’s guilt, and very very determined. Genuinely wants to make Gotham a better place and works very hard to do so as both Batman and Bruce Wayne. Probably not as much chronic pain from injury as people think, because he keeps getting physically reset by death/resurrection events, but he definitely does not respect his body at all and goes right back to abusing it every time. Deeply admires and respects his friends. Falls in love easily but always sabotages his relationships. Very soft with babies and young children. Loves his kids with all his heart; rarely knows how to show it and often screws up with parenting. Doesn’t tell people things because it doesn’t occur to him to or because he doesn’t know how, quite aside from the very real trust issues, but will be emotionally honest with someone when their life is at stake. Doesn’t truly believe in his own mortality but is terrified of bad things happening to his kids. Is weak to being called ‘Dad’ – that’s how he came to adopt the telepathic space starfish.

Dick: Brilliant, charismatic, incredibly loyal, a great leader. Loves easily, widely and deeply, and in turn is beloved by all. Understands what people are saying and can get a lot of information from what they don’t say. Genuinely enjoys being a hero, in its danger and violence, in its opportunities for acrobatics and showmanship, but most of of all in the way it lets him help and protect other people. Has the occasional civilian job but never stays in them for long. (Despite the number of fics which feature him as a police officer, he was a cop for only around a year and it is by no means his default profession.) Likes to be up high and goes skydiving for fun. No-one knows he has horrible imposter syndrome. Pretends to be open but actually keeps his true feelings under wraps a lot of the time. Has a tendency to hide or drive people away when he is hurt or depressed, and blames himself when things go wrong. Does not often lose his temper but when he does he becomes a whirlwind of wrath on whoever has threatened his friends and family (especially if it’s Tim).

Jason: The unreliable narrator. Tends to lie to himself and does not do self-examination; avoids thinking about things that make him uncomfortable. Justifies his actions to himself a lot. To others, he’s a poor liar, if he tries to lie at all. Generally he speaks the truth as he sees it and gets hurt when he is lied to by someone he trusts. Has big feelings and likes to talk about them. Probably feels guilty for liking being a hero. Probably still believes some people need killing, even after he has forsworn murder for the sake of the family (and mostly follows company policy). Doesn’t seem to make friends easily, but likes being part of a team. Was actually only a crime lord for a couple of months, and really only to set up his Bruce–Joker confrontation. Likes books, particularly the classics (you’ll see Pride and Prejudice mentioned a lot because he was seen reading it in a panel once but he actually enjoys a wide range). Tends to lash out with both words and fists when he feels hurt.

Tim: Absolutely adores Dick and that is the fundament of his character (Dick adores him right back). Canon doesn’t show him routinely stalking the Batfam before he became Robin – but doesn’t entirely rule it out. Very good at spotting clues and inferring meaning from them. Believes with all his heart in the importance of hero work and making the world a better place. Does a lot of self-examination and exploration of his own motivations. Only mildly neglected; his parents were away a lot but put him in boarding school rather than leaving him unsupervised. A fast and very dedicated learner (learnt how to skateboard in one weekend, then built himself a motorised crime-fighting skateboard). Confident in his skills and abilities; sometimes too confident – on the rare occasions he goes down the wrong track he can take a while to realise it. Friendly, talkative and gregarious: he’s not necessarily the best leader but he can make friends with pretty much anyone (including bad guys) and get them to bond with each other and work together as a team. Good with computers and engineering, and admires other heroes who build and use technology. Likes building cars, driving fast in cars, and crashing cars. Like Dick and Bruce, he tends to push people away and self-isolate when he’s upset or depressed, and becomes much less talkative. Is not overly addicted to caffeine, does not drink copious amounts of coffee, and is generally not particularly sleep-deprived, whatever the fandom may tell you.

Steph: Rather brash and self-centred (not selfish, but tending to default to seeing things primarily in terms of how they affect her) in her younger years, but becomes wiser and more self-confident as she matures and gets more training. Still sometimes feels she doesn’t measure up to other heroes, but is determined to protect and help others. A quick thinker, she can improvise and come up with new creative solutions on the fly, and does so even if it means diverting from the plan, meaning she often clashes with other team members. It also means she can jump to the wrong conclusion. Very stubborn, whether she is right or wrong. Fights dirty both physically and emotionally. Is generally cheerful and enthusiastic, and this is usually genuine, though she can sometimes use it to cover sadness or hurt. When upset she will tend to confront whoever she blames for it and express her feelings loudly (and is likely to take quite a while to calm down and listen to any explanation).

Cass: Knows she is physically superior to most people on the planet, and therefore feels the responsibility to use that skill to protect people. Is absolutely against the idea of killing and hates the thought of anyone dying. Has a special bond with Barbara who helped her a lot when she first came to Gotham. Her difficulties with language mean she will never be a great reader or orator; she eventually learns to talk but is a very sparse and utilitarian speaker and sometimes lacks vocabulary. This frustrates her. She is good at reading body language, but that just tells her what people are about to do and roughly how they are feeling, not what they are thinking, and she sometimes struggles to understand why people do what they do or what to do about it, or to articulate what she knows. Enjoys dance and other activities that use and challenge her physical abilities without hurting others. Because she was first deliberately isolated as a child and then lived on her own for years, she has had to work hard to learn how to work in a team and it still often doesn’t occur to her to ask for help or tell people things. Tends to run away when she feels too emotionally seen, and make reckless decisions when upset.

Damian: When he first comes to the family, is very defensive and expects to be attacked, and this fear and insecurity is why he is so hostile and aggressive. He goes for Tim in particular probably because he feels most threatened by him. Later, and with Dick’s influence in particular, he mellows out, feels more secure, and becomes fiercely protective of all his family, and particularly loyal to Dick. Dick has tried to teach him the joy of hero work, but he probably still sees it mainly as a legacy and a duty. Is still abrasive and tactless, and is often hostile to new acquaintances, but tends to bond well with small groups over time. Loves animals and is a vegetarian. Enjoys drawing and playing the computer game Cheese Vikings. Tends to get defensive and blame others when upset or when things go wrong.

Duke: Charismatic and very courageous. Will throw hands with anyone if he feels it’s necessary, and will not balk first in any game of chicken. Very good at solving puzzles and bringing clues together. Likes heroing because he wants to help and to make a difference in the world. Is not adopted – Bruce fosters him for a while but after that he stays with a cousin (and in current canon may now be back with his mother who has recovered from her Joker-induced coma). Very good at pep talks and persuading people into a particular course of action. This, together with his strong grasp of strategy, makes him a great leader. His facility with words also comes out in his skill with puzzles and riddles and in his creative writing. When he’s sad or hurt he will outwardly carry on as normal and let out his feelings in his poetry (which he never admits to writing).

Barbara: A trained librarian with a very organised mind and an eidetic memory. Knows an awful lot about everything and can find out anything she doesn’t already know, so she can quickly put together disparate pieces of information. Very good at hacking and coding and can crack pretty much anything. Is the go-to contact for information for almost everyone and basically holds the whole hero system together. As Batgirl before being paralysed, she enjoys being a hero for the thrill of the action, but after being shot in the spine, being a hero is for her a personal victory over the Joker’s attack on her. (In current canon, she now has full mobility again which may be poor disability rep but is absolutely in character: if the treatment existed – and given the world they are in it makes sense that it would – she would definitely take it, though she would research the hell out of it first.) Is an excellent co-ordinator and strategist; works very well with teams and keeps everyone together and on target. Cautious; sometimes overly so. Generally a good teacher and mentor and genuinely enjoys it, but occasionally gets impatient and frustrated when people don’t follow her train of thought quickly enough. Sometimes overworks herself due to her awareness of how many people depend on her, and drinks a lot of coffee. When she is upset she will tend to seek out friends or family for comfort.

Alfred: Dead in current canon, but we mostly ignore that. Military background and severe stiff upper lip syndrome (which is not good for raising a traumatised child). A very private person who projects an image of himself as the perfect butler, stoic and unfazed by anything that happens. Secretly he’s the biggest drama queen of the lot and absolutely enjoys the concept of the fighting and the cool toys and the costumes and the drama of it all, but will never admit it and hides it with sarcastic comments. (I believe that if Gotham had had a decent Gilbert & Sullivan Society for Alfred to join then the whole Batman thing would never have got off the ground.) Sometimes commits to the bit too hard and loses sight of the feelings of the people on the other end. Loyal to Bruce to a fault and will support him over anyone else. Somewhat insecure over his role in the family, and very manipulative when he feels the need to be. Expresses disappointment and disapproval by withdrawing, and often hides behind his role as an employee rather than intervene in personal disagreements within the family. Rarely admits to being in any way wrong or even surprised about anything.

Can someone pls give me like a comprehensive characterization of all the characters in the batfam??? I’m trying to write fics on them and I SO DO NOT want to mischaracterize them. Like how Jason was not the angry robin, but in fact the sweetest and only 4 apples tall Robin, while Dick “Crashout” Grayson was out here raging on every criminal. Things like that would help give depth to the characters Any additional lore as well would be good, as I’ve only been consuming batfam content through tumbler, fics, and other mishmash from social media. I’ve yet to start the comics and no ideas on where to start so any help there would be GREATLY APPRECIATED!!

[weewoow-20706030]

Bruce kisses his kids foreheads to check their temperature because that's what his mum did for him.

[hmslusitania]

Something that just made me a lot more chill about seeing other peoples questionable takes in the depths of comics fandoms here is that, you know, with like tv shows or movies when there’s differing takes, you can ask yourself with great despair “did we even watch the same thing?” and you DID but people are people.

Whereas with comics, particularly character analysis as opposed to like. Event review. You sit there looking at some wild (to you) conclusion someone else has drawn and you ask, “did we even read the same comics?!” And like.

Honestly?

Chances are pretty good that… no. You didn’t. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

[redrobinsrobbingrobin]

SHUT UP SHUT UP SHUT UP

I’M SO SICK AND FUCKING TIRED IF PEOPLE PITTING CANON AND FANON AGAINST EACH OTHER LIKE FUCK YOU

IF YOU DIBT LIKE SOMETHING DONT INTERACT ITS NOT THAT FUCKING HARD

‘OMG WFA this, WFA that,” people enjoy it and you don’t. People can read it and accept it as canon in a different universe, it was my first Batfam comic, and it holds a special place in my heart, personally. People use WFA to introduce people to comics, to introduce people to the Batfam. It’s not meant to be considered main continuity

‘Damian doesn’t consider Dick a father figure’ okay??? So don’t interact with stuff that shows Dick being fatherly towards Damian???

I’m so tired of constantly trying to make sure I haven’t gotten a small detail of someone’s characterisation wrong in TikToks, posts, fics.

This is what’s wrong with fandom etiquette.

People read things and have different interpretations for the same thing, WHICH IS FINE, but don’t go bashing anybody who disagrees with your opinion for it.

None of you people understand that Fanon is an oversimplification of characters, a lot of the time, in order to lure people in to interact with the media without overloading on trying to read DECADES WORTH of source material

Hal was a pedo, ‘but it was retconned’ yeah, it was. Things get retconned, canon changes.

Nothing is real. The sooner you accept that, the better it is for everybody in the fandom.

‘Why isn’t fandom fun anymore :(‘ cause you’re policing headcanon, slightly OOC characterisations, bashing fics, bashing art, no one wants to be a part of toxic fandom spaces, and YOU ARE MAKING THSI FANDOM TOXIC

[avayarising]

Dammit, I forgot:

Tim has no problem with murder and killed hundreds of people when he blew up the LoA servers

Tim lived next door to Bruce from early childhood

Please vote ‘other’ for either of these!

[sunayyyy]

Worst fandom mischaracterisation/headcanon of each bat-associated character, in my opinion (these are in no particular order) :

1. Duke Thomas is the sane, rational, "normal" one.

Have you ever read the We Are Robin arc? Duke is fucking unhinged, his introduction was him jumping off a bridge to escape cops. This is a kid whose father is immortal and is the first metahuman in the batfam. He lost his parents in the most horrendous way possible (joker venom. They're still alive, but it's horrifying) and organised a whole gang as a child. He threw down with a green lantern and 2 shot his ass. Hopefully, this headcanon is just a product of people not really knowing the character and goes away soon once people find out more about him, when he isn't just the token black guy in a fic or a background character in batfam drama.

2. Stephanie Brown is quirky and sassy, and ONLY quirky and sassy. She's over her trauma with Black Mask and Cluemaster!!

Stephanie Brown is a very interesting character, with an origin story that is very similar to jason todd. She's been through hell, yet she constantly gets infantalised by the fandom, which gets kind of ignored in favour of talking shit about how people infantilse tim (super valid and I'll come back to it later on in this post). You most commonly see this in timsteph stories where they show her as the immature first love, and how as tim grows up, he needs to date more "serious" people, as if tim wasn't the main reason their relationship never worked. This is also common in stephcass fics, although on a smaller level. Writers tend to make stephanie the bubbly outgoing girl that balances out all of cass' angst (some of those fics are really good, but they mould steph in a specific shape so she can be a prop for cass to heal). On an even smaller scale, I've seen both romantic and platonic jaysteph stories where stephanie appears as the "good" victim who let go of her animosity to black mask and cluemaster, and so now, she can help jason let go of what happened with the joker, and bruce's abuse. Obviously, this is a disservice to both of these characters, but people tend to focus on how it's more of a disservice to jason instead of steph. Let my girl express her trauma and heal, and stop using her as a prop for other characters! She wasn't just cutesy as robin, she threw the fuck down. Her introduction included hitting tim in the head with a brick!

3. Slut/himbo Dick Grayson is reductive of his abilities as a leader, and is not only offensive to real survivors of SA, but incredibly racist towards Romani people.

Do I really need to explain this one? Dick Grayson is a symbol of hope that bruce wishes batman could be. This man is a natural born leader and has stepped up to the plate multiple times, both during his time with the titans and as batman. He's charismatic and lovable and a genuinely intelligent man, but for some reason, he gets depicted as a dumbass who has to deffer to bruce or tim or babs any time he has an issue with detective work. Yes, you can delegate. Of course, you can delegate, but going straight to tim and rattling off the case you JUST accepted doesn't make sense, ESPECIALLY if you're on seperate cases and tim or bruce have to postpone their work just to solve it for you. As for the other part, Dick has been heavily implied to be demisexual, given that he only has sex with people he has genuine feelings for. He wouldn't just sleep with any random woman who compliments his ass enough. Also, having an SA victim be characterised as a slut is both reductive of their trauma and a weird way that some authors justify how he's "over it." Really doesn't help that he was slut shamed (canonically!! why is this canon??) by the rest of the titans after sleeping with mirage, who pretended to be kori. Additionally, it's really weird if the first thing you think of when you see an attractive romani man just sleeps around. People don't say that about other conventionally attractive characters, even ones who HAVE slept around. The only character i can think of that gets characterised like this is bruce, but that's an image that he cultivated to keep batman hidden.

4. Jason Todd was always doomed by the narrative. He would have died if bruce hadn't intervened. Also, pit rage.

The tragedy of jason todd was, and always has been, that he was doomed by the AUDIENCE. He wasn't just an angry, reckless child, and calling him the angry robin is stupid and reductive. Was he angry? of course he was, but so was dick, and so was damian. Using a single word to describe a person is never going to be enough. Jason was notoriously compassionate to victims, especially women and children, and sex abuse victims. He got pissed when the system he was asked to believe in was shown to be ineffective, to the point where bruce believed he killed a man over it. The kid had a bright future ahead and loved school, modt of robin!jason's shitty qualities came from bruce and alfred compartmentaling his image and shitting on him to ease their guilt over his death. Pit rage is also a cheap way to take away his autonomy, an easy pass to explain the shitty things he's done. I like it when the pit has side effects like glowing eyes or increased healing or something, but pit rage is stupid. It's either used to force characters to forgive jason since he wasn't himself or as an angst prompt for jason, another testament to how he came back wrong, or a way to have him hurt a character to further up THEIR angst (*cough* titans tower AU fics*cough*). Yes, he did shitty things. Let him do shitty things without giving him an easy out. Otherwise, your story isn't compelling at all.

5. Feral Damian Wayne is just straight-up racist, no?

I love damian. I think that, for the most part, he's been written pretty well. However, damian suffers from the fact that he's an arab character in a post 9/11 comic, and thus there is bound to be some casual racism, both in comics (like when tim assumed he was too uncivilised to know what a handshake is) and fandom. Has damian wayne done a lot of shitty things, especially to tim? Yes, absolutely. But that doesn't make him feral. He was raised by assassins as the heir to the throne and to the greatest hero in the world, raised to think that blood relations are the only ones that matter, so of course he's dismissive of tim. He's also a prince who was raised in luxury, who was born as royalty and has experienced more opulence during his birth thsn most peoole do in a lifetime, although this opulence is extremely conditional, with horrifying requirements (the story with damian having a metal spine as a child is insane). Does it make what he did to tim right? Definitely not. Does it excuse his actions? Also no. But it does explain them, it tells us where it came from. Being traumatised and having extremely high expectations of both sides of your family doesn't make you feral.

6. Tim Drake is just a small little baby who can't function without his coffee.

Let me preface this by saying that i don't like tim drake. At all. As a huge fan of the al ghuls it was a real kick in the balls having Ra's be reduced to a creepy pedophile who wanted tim as an heir, and sent a woman to rape tim in order to carry his child. Also, I hate how DC decided to prop him up by shitting on jason todd. However, this doesn't mean that I don't enjoy his YJ run and that I don't enjoy some of his comics/fics. That being said, nothing on this earth pisses me off more than tim stans. You know the ones, the people who want damian hanged, who want dick and jason and bruce to fall to their knees and beg for forgiveness. Tim has been through an insane amount of trauma, and that's understandable, but please, for the love of god, don't create more whump for tim at the cost of other characters. You can hate damian, I wouldn't blame you, but remember that he's like 10 and tim put him on a hit list. Dick never wanted to put tim in arkham, and he didn't have time to support tim when it came to an honestly insane (although ultimately correct) conclusion. Also damian as robin was alfred's idea, and damian was the one that put on the costume preemptively, dick got pissed at damian for that. When it comes to jason, I'd say it's complicated. While titans tower was fucked up, it wasn't as bad as people made it out to be. My first introduction to the fandom was through jason todd since he was my favourite robin, and then i learned they brought him back to life when i played injustice. The number of fics and posts that mention that jason went to the tower specifically to kill tim is insane. When i got into comics, it was like whiplash; it wasn't a one-sided beatdown, tim was conscious until the end, the goofy ass robin suit jason had on, jason never slitting tim's throat (that happens in hush, and even then i don't think he really slit his throat, since the art shows that the skin was kinda nicked), all of that was wild to me. BftC is one of the shittiest comjc book runs when it comes to characterisation in general, and I've already discussed dick and tim, so it's only fair to talk about jason and tim. There's no justification here, honestly, other than shitty writing i guess. The other side of the coin is enemies to caretaker jason and tim, which is so fucking wild?? they're like 2 years apart, and tim is extremely competent, he wouldn't pass out mid patrol because he forgot his coffee.

7. Bruce Wayne doesn't believe people can change and doesn't care about Crime Alley.

For the first one, please fucking read a single comic book. Just one. Better yet, maybe research why batman doesn't kill. You know, the most popular thing about him? As for the second, it's mostly just a way to show how jason is better than bruce and how he's right to take over the alley since no one cares about it. Now I LOVE jason todd. He's my favourite comic book character of all time tied with gambit and Dr. Strange. But I hate it when you create angst or comeuppance by blatantly ignoring the chatacter and their motives. Bruce became batman so that what happened to his parents can never happen again, and this includes helping the poor people in crime alley either through patrolling there or by setting up countless charities to improve life there. You can make the case that batman avoided crime alley after jason died. It's not canon, but it would make sense. However, I dont see him ever giving up on the alley, both to prevent what happened to his parents, and to help people like his dead son. I fucking hate bruce, he's done a lot of shitty things, but making shit up just to make him worse is getting old.

8. Misc

There aren't really enough mischaracterisations about cass and babs to warrant separate paragraphs, so I'll just reiterate the infantalisation of cass and babs having no qualities outside of oracle, master hacker, and dick grayson's on and off lover.

[mysterycitrus]

Clearly you’ve got a lot of opinions abt the characterisations of the batfam in fandom /pos

Can you elaborate on your interpretation for all of them? /gen

it’s called caring too much — and it’s incurable! wrt my personal interpretation, that's a long and complicated answer, so ill just focus on the internal character of the waynes (specifically bruce and his five canonical kids).

bruce wayne is a control freak, we know this. his parents were killed for being in the wrong place at the wrong time, and he has literally never ever been able to truly process it. the degree to which he is controlling - firing robins, survelling his allies without their consent, compiling personal information from others, disregarding others feelings in favour of his own - is all about trying to achieve the best possible outcome. everything he does is justified, because if he's in control then he can stop bad things from happening. it is all in favour of the greater good. it's the logic of an eight year old who's just lost everything and hasn't grown up.

if bruce's trauma manifests control then dick's manifests personal perfectionism. he holds himself to such an absurd standard because he's a flier - when you're catching someone on the trapeze you quite literally have to be there, always, ready to take their hand. if you don't, they fall. if there's no net, if dick isn't the net, then they die. he’s always swinging back out and in again, waiting for the next person to slip through his fingers. he does not fear falling, only what will happen when he hits the ground. he’s a born performer made to be an atlas, carrying an unbearable weight that anchors him to the earth.

jason after death is a tragedy of his own creation, and dc's worst crime is trying to justify the terrible decisions he makes. jason isn’t right, because what he wants is not about protecting other kids from his fate or being a better batman. he wants to be personally vindicated, even though he knows it's impossible. jason rejected himself, bruce, everything, in order to transform into a weapon to enact violence. deep down he's so angry, so hurt, that he'll go after other children - tim, damian, mia - and still decry bruce in the same breath. killing the joker, killing bruce, killing dick, killing every robin before or since won't take him back to who he was before. you cannot go back. you can never go back.

cass sees everything. she can't unsee it, she can't ignore it, nothing in the body can be truly hidden from her, but like bruce that doesn't mean she's always right. she killed a man and witnessed his death, and thus will never take another life. she is all knowing, but she was not born knowing herself. she's jason in reverse — she turns from steel to flesh and bone. she will do whatever it takes to be good. she has made herself real.

tim chose this life in the most literal sense of the word, and then kept choosing it. it’s his duty, it’s his honour, it has hollowed him out and left nothing behind. his tethers to the world snap one by one — janet and jack and darla and dana and steph and kon — and suddenly it’s much harder to extricate himself from the black. robin, dick grayson, is his guiding north star, but his north star is only human. he knows he is capable, he knows this is his choice, and he knows he has long since lost the chance to unchoose.

damian is raised in the shadow of the bat. he is born of blood. he knew death before he knew his father. he is a child. he is ancient. he is a killer. he only wants to do good. he loves his mother. his father is gone before he learns to love damian. damian loves someone else who wears the bat but does not carry wayne name. everything he knows about himself is questioned — robin is given to him, and suddenly he can decide his own fate, make his own family. he wants to be the best, but he doesn’t know what he wants that to mean anymore. he wants the chance to find out.

[ghost-bxrd]

Been mulling over Titans Tower and it's really interesting to me how it's treated in Fanon as compared to how the events transpired in canon. it's a really fun topic! Honestly, the original writing in canon is DOGSHITE but not for the usual reasons people cite.

Here's what does make sense in canon but is largely ignored (this is using canon characterisations at the time): First, it's all about the whole Titans team, not just Tim. They really downplay his death a lot, did not put up his statue or honour him whatsoever. Plus the hero community tends to victim-blame him a fuckton. Jason is showing that his death could've happened to anyone. Second, Tim and Jason are just two yearish apart—Jay died at 15, Tim becomes Robin at 13—so those Titans are more like his colleagues than anything else; he's not some older guy beating the shit outta them. Third, Tim’s indifference to Jason's comments and his cockiness about being a better Robin are pretty on-brand for his early portrayal as Robin. (I think fanon Tim derives a lot of his characteristics from his Red Robin run, which is valid as well! But here in particular we have Robin Tim... who... was... uh... a bit of an asshole when he was written back then and the HUBRIS on that man? Immaculate.)

What still makes this absolutely dog shit is the dialogue and how Jason is pouring his heart out to someone who he doesn't really care about. Jason... just doesn't operate this way... Why's he trauma dumping on... tim... ???? It makes no sense whatsoever because Jason really is someone who'd keep those vulnerabilities to himself. Why would he open up to... CANON TIM??? He makes scathing remarks when faced with Bruce and Dick because he knows the knife twists then and at he cares about their reaction. But not tim ????? Canon UTRH doesn't even mention Tim ????? ???? So in the end it's still shit imo.

I also find the use of Pit Madness in fanon super interesting, despite it not being canon. It's used to propel the Titan's Tower incident, which fascinates me because it shows how people are willing to work around its flaws to maintain consistent characterization in their works (which is !!! cool !!)

It's so interesting how many other incidents that do occur in canon aren't as well known as this one aren't given much thought. But this one is and it's interesting how people try to work with it regardless of it's flaws originally!

I'd really love to hear your opinions about it and how flexible you are with the Titans tower incident! :) How do you work with your Jason and your Tim? because it's cool to hear your analysis etc etc

Hooo boi okay i was planning on replying to this earlier but this deserves a proper, thought out response (which I’m shite at but I’m trying here. Words are hard.)

For one, I wholeheartedly agree with the whole trauma dumping thing.

Obviously we all have different tastes in media and I know there are quite a few people who enjoyed the confrontation with Tim, which is totally fine, but personally… yeah, not my thing.

I got into the Batman/batfam fandom via fanfic, so my first introduction was some version of Titans Tower I believe. I was super intrigued by the characters and the tidbits of lore sprinkled throughout that I immediately began reading up on them and digging through the internet for more info and background story on them. Which then quickly evolved into the part where my adoration for Jason’s character began and a short phase where I absolutely despised early canon Tim.

Like— all the victim blaming. He seriously couldn’t mention Jason without adding something derogatory about getting himself killed, which sat so, so wrong with me. Not to mention the Titans just accepting a new Robin right off the bat and joining in blaming Jason for his own death. I’m pretty sure that was the point where I swore off comics for a long while and decided to live off fanon 🤣

And then Jason’s part in the Titans Tower incident. I think part of how weird the canon event was is due in part to how the writers fumbled to depict trauma? Or maybe they just outright hated him because I know a lot of people back then despised Jason and his run as Robin.

Whatever the reason, I think I genuinely cringed when he revealed the Walmart Robin costume he was wearing. And then the trauma dumping.

Jason is smart enough to know Tim wouldn’t care about his grievances. I mean- dude just broke into his hideout to attack him, I think Tim’s about as done with Jason as with any other criminals, regardless of his past. And all that is proven by Tim fighting back tooth and nail without pause. He doesn’t even react to the accusation of the missing statue in Jason’s honor. Like, he genuinely doesn’t seem to care. And why would he? They don’t know each other.

And yeah maybe he was trying to beat some sense into Tim (which is still wrong but— vigilantes I guess? Idk) and make him quit Robin, but Jason’s also smart enough to know that Robins don’t quit easily. And then, as soon as Tim is down for the count and can’t keep fighting, Jason leaves. Just like that. No actual murder attempt, no kicking-while-he’s-down (at least as far as I remember).

It makes no sense. What would Jason be gaining from that encounter? Why would he blame the kid that replaced him and not the guy that did the replacing? Hell, it would make more sense for him to go after the Titans than Tim. Not the mention him casually doubting Tim’s talents when he must have done some background checks on him.

It’s why I like the idea of Pit Madness I guess, and that Jason actually went to the tower with the intent to kill. Because that way the entire thing wouldn’t seem so… pointless.

As for how flexible I am with the Titans Tower storyline, it really depends on the route people choose to explore. But I’m a huge sucker for the “Jason was Tim’s Robin” trope where there’s at least a mild amount of hero worship going on. 👁️ Oh, and happy endings. I can’t deal with tragedies.

But yeah these are my thoughts on it. Obviously no hate to whoever enjoyed the comic mentioned above 💚 we’ve all got different things we resonate with after all~

[homosexualworkaccount]

Jason Todd’s “Replacement” nickname for Tim Drake, Origins and Popularisation

So, making a 2500-word essay on how a fanon nickname that only me and like two other people care about is not how I expected to spend my time in between exams.

A lot of Batfam fans are very, very much aware of the fanon “Replacement” nickname Jason has for Tim, and a lot of us very, very much hate it due to the connotations of fanon characterisation that it has. I don’t personally, I think it’s an alright enough one that fits into the established canon ones – but to be fair, I haven’t read the comics in a hot minute, so my memory could be screwy.

I got curious one day on where the nickname came from when a user on TikTok mentioned that it might’ve originated from a Batfam incest fic (They weren’t too sure and told me to take it with a grain of salt) – so shout out to them for starting me down this rabbit hole! I looked over on here and saw that notion repeated, though no one could pinpoint me to a specific fic beyond “It was popularised from a Batfam incest fic.”. I also saw a few people say that it was derived from canon, which piqued my interest further so I decided to go down a rabbit hole of fandom history purely for some fun.

The aim of this essay is just to clear up some misconceptions around the origin of the name, all fun and no harm. Don’t send harassment to people referenced in this either over a silly nickname, it's been well over a decade since they wrote the works used here.

Preface

Alright, first things first – all sources are going to be ones that were published after August 2005, the official date the first issue of Batman: Under the Red Hood was published, where Jason was established to be alive again.

While there could be a chance that the nickname was derived from a website/fanfiction before 2005, it’s highly unlikely due to the fact it was only popularised in the early 2010’s, and well, because Jason was dead and no one gave a shit about him. Also good to remember that most websites that ran before 2005 are defunct and purged from the internet now, particularly fanfiction websites (such as Quidzillia) due to various issues (taboo, copyright, costs to run ect).

Small note to make again – the Batfam fandom was fairly small at the time, the more fandom-y part of the DC community usually sticking to their own websites like Quotev, Quidzilla (again, defunct now), AO3, Fanfiction.net, LiveJournal and independent websites (again, defunct) while the rest stuck to discussion sites, so the entire fandom functioned more as a insular community from what I could tell. I will be working with the assumption that the nickname was created on one of the larger platforms, as any other platform didn’t have large enough influence to popularise the nickname.

The nicknames that I specifically looked for was simply Jason calling Tim Replacement in place of his actual name. Something like “Replacement Robin” was on very thin ice, but still counted as an offshoot. Anything else was off bets.

This whole thing will be split into a few sections to make some things for myself easier. Preface, Sources, Pre-cursor Fanfiction, Fandom Opinion and Language, First usage, Popularisation, Conclusion, Questions, Final Notes.

Sources

Fanfic.net – Created 1998, was and remains one of the larger fanfiction sites. Note; Fanfiction.net had various periods of time where there were large scale purges of fanfictions that held more mature content. Most notable instances were in 2002 and 2012.

Archive Of Our Own – The holy grail for my research. Created in 2008. For the information I got from there I used the search filter Date Updated, tagged Jason’s and Tim’s individual tags and followed from there.

Live Journal – Created 1999 and was used as one of the larger sites for fandom and fanfiction. Was used by DC fandom goers regularly so I used it to get an idea of the fandom at the time.

Tumblr – Created 2007. Theres various people on here who have compilations on DC timelines and comic sourcing that helped me correlate fandom growth with specific comic releases (Shout out to @ectonurites for their meta posts and timeline posts, they were a major source for this!). Dogshit filtering system, so I couldn’t find posts pre 2012 about DC.

Note; Quotev and Wattpad weren’t used in this as their filtering systems don’t account for searching for older fanfictions, so sadly had to be discarded as most fanfictions between 2006-2010 on those websites are now very difficult to find.

Pre-Cursor FanFiction

So, before we get to the actual first proper use I could find of “Replacement”, I first want to mention a fanfiction that had something very similar that I think would be important purely for archiving reasons around how the nickname came to be. And also because it fits the nickname criteria I mentioned earlier.

Published on the 29th of November 2006, last updated on the 28th of November 2007, was the fanfiction My-Enemy-My-Brother on Fanfiction.net by user theunknownvoice – featuring the first use of Jason referring to Tim with a nickname including replacement, Replacement Robin. Kudos to theunknownvoice, they created the very first nickname that would kickstart the rest.

While Jason doesn’t explicitly refer to Tim as Replacement – the main subject of this essay, it comes very damn close, so I wanted to include it. There is a part where Jason repeats replacement in his head multiple times, and I think he’s supposed to be referring to Tim, but the sentence isn’t very clear on that part, so I won’t count it, but it is important to acknowledge.

Though this isn’t the fanfiction that influenced the development of Replacement. This fic had barely enough reach to influence any future works years later. I couldn’t find any connection with this work and later works that officially did just have Jason call Tim “Replacement”

Fandom Opinion and Language at the time

I promise this is important and that I’m not a pretentious linguistic, English isn’t even my first language.

I like to think we all know how fandom discussion just seeps into fanfiction (See; the nickname green bean for Deku from MHA leaking into fanfiction) so I just want to quickly point this out.

Discussion around the two blew up after Jasons return in late 2005, people going “What does this mean” and “What does that mean for Tim”. Through the few posts I could dig up from this time and up to 2011, it seems people came to the conclusion that Tim was Jason’s replacement, and that their dynamic was Jason dealing with the fact that he had one. You can definitely see that in some of the posts and fanfiction written at the time that usually had Jason dealing with Tim being his replacement.

(Just a few examples from LiveJournal but more like this are still floating around, if they aren’t deleted anyway)

It’s very likely that the authors themselves engaged in similar discussions/had independent thoughts that ended in the same conclusions, seeping into the fanfiction itself later. In the comics pre-New 52 I couldn’t find any major instance of Jason explicitly referring to Tim as his replacement (only implied through speech), so this was mostly contained in fandom discussions from what I can tell. (Note, this was probably similar on comic discussion websites, but I couldn’t find any that still exist pre-2007, so I’m going to assume literacy skills are not any better on those sites. See; Batman dick riders)

The fact that Tim is explicitly described as having replaced Jason, and sometimes as “Being the Replacement” on posts/fanfiction definitely had a hand in the creation and popularisation of the nickname, influencing the fan content made around the two.

First usage of Replacement

Cain! Cain! Is the first use of the nickname Replacement really from a Batfam incest fanfiction?

Nope, thank God.

After filtering their character tags together on AO3, going to the oldest page and clicking through over 10 pages, reading every single fanfiction on each one (yes, even the weird ones, I was dedicated) I found the first instance where Jason explicitly refers to Tim as Replacement, that still exists today anyway.

Published on the 24th of January, 2009 by user shiny_glor_chan, is the fanfiction Four Calling Birds, a fanfiction detailing Stephenie Brown returning from faking her death (a whole headache from the comics that I can't be arsed to explain) and getting to meet Jason and Dick for the first time. Genuinely sweet, and a corner stone of fandom history, officially. Hip hip Hooray! Congratulations shiny_glor_chan.

I tried tracing to see if this person had any other accounts that I could find to see where they got the nickname from, but it seems it’s mostly a nickname they thought up out of the fact that they had consistently wrote Jason explicitly stating that Tim was his replacement

And reading through several more pages of fanfiction again, feeling like I want to bleach my eyes out, I found the second instance of the nickname being used. Published on the 26th of May, 2010 by user axiel-neesan, is the fanfiction The Only Piece You Get, where Jason basically acts as Tim’s cabbie and bonds with him. Another corner stone of fandom history, hooray.

These two authors are completely unrelated and have no connections to each other besides both frequenting LiveJournal, having taken prompts and having friends from that website, despite having no accounts I could find. I personally think they had a similar train of thought of “Huh, that would be a sick ass nickname.”. Chances are that axiel-neesan saw shiny_glor_chans fic and got inspired as the fandom was dead small on AO3 at the time – around 20 pages worth of fanfiction from 2008-2010 (And thats being generous if we’re counting now deleted ones)

These two fanfictions are immensely important because it’s the only early instances I could find of the nickname being used, and for about two years after the nickname pops up occasionally – but by no means was it popular, or even regularly used, I had to look for the fanfictions that used it.

Props to shiny_glor_chan and axiel-neesan! I pray that you two don’t see what the fandom thinks of that nickname now.

Popularisation

Early 2012 saw the proper explosion of fandom for the Batfam, and by extension the nickname.

By this point there were so many fanfictions that I couldn’t read them all, so I started picking random ones that tagged Jason and Tims relationship, platonic or not. Pre-April-ish of 2012 the nickname popped up every other page or so, but sometime after mid-2012 the nickname was in almost every fanfiction that I skimmed through – so that’s its official growth period.

Why though? Several factors probably.

The New-52 was in full swing by this time, DC massively promoting the reboot to get new fans interested, so people picked up comics from there. Young Justice – the more mainstream exposure of DC to surface level fans aired its second season in April of 2012, introducing people to Tim Drake and his story and getting them interested. Fanfiction and fandom as a whole was becoming less taboo and more accepted in fan spaces, so encouragement to write it was much better than it was in the early years of the internet (Example; Teen Wolf’s production team)

As for a specific catalyst for the growth of popularity for the nickname? There might be something worth pointing to.

Kudos for @ectonurites for helping me on this (Hi Sam! I was anon!) and giving me a publishing date on Tim’s and Jason’s first New 52 interaction – Red Hood and the Outlaws #8, published on the 18th of April, 2012. It features an instance of Jason and Tim interacting in a very friendly and familial way, Jason explicitly calling Bruce their Dad. Compared to their last major previous interaction of Jason leaving Tim for dead, fans of the two who enjoyed the more familial potential (and tragically, romantic potential) took it and ran with it.

All of these combined in some way to contribute to the popularity of the nickname in mid to late 2012, and lead to it’s infamy in DC fanfiction.

Conclusion

In conclusion, how do I think the nickname came to be?

I think it’s a combination of factors that led to it’s creation. As already established people very much did see Tim as Jasons replacement at the time, and the language could have shortened down from “Tim replaced Jason” to “Tim is Jason’s replacement” to “Tim is the replacement” which I think could be the train of thought the 2006 author went down to create the nickname Replacement Robin.

This definitely influenced the AO3 writers as shiny_glor_chan was present on LiveJournal at the time (where this language was very prominent), so they were already down the line of thinking this and probably went “Huh, replacement is kinda a funny nickname” and added it. As already stated, I think axiel-neesan probably had a very similar train of thought or may have seen shiny_glor_chan’s fic and was inspired.

And from there people saw it, used it in their own works, getting leaked over onto LiveJournal, which was the main website for prompt sharing, getting used a decent amount there before the explosion of fandom in mid-2012 that lead to it’s regular usage in fan works.

Questions

So, is the nickname from a Batcest fic?

Nope! The nickname mostly makes an appearance in platonic fics between Jason and Tim, it’s actually a chore to find it in their romantic ones, as in I think I found one instance of it being used somewhere in late 2010 but I can't think of it in a fanfiction that predates that. All early uses of the nickname were in platonic fics between the two.

I think this rumour is based around three fanfictions specifically on Ao3 that people are pointing to, I think, no one seems to be wanting to name names. They’re the ones that pop up when you search Replacement in the word search after tagging Tim Drake and Jason Todd together.

Wings to Fly. Published October of 2012. Jason Refers to Tim as Replacement. Jason/Tim

Replacement. Published 2009. The title implies it’s referring to Tim, but Jason never explicitly nicknames Tim replacement, the narrator only calling Tim “His replacement”, him being Jason. Jason/Tim. Non-con

The Replacement. Published 2011. Can't figure out if the title is supposed to refer to Tim or is simply just titled that for the sake of it. Jason talks a few times about Tim being his replacement, but the nickname never makes an appearance. Jason/Tim

Does the nickname have any bases in Canon?

From what I can tell, no. I haven’t read all the Batfamily comics Pre-New 52, or from after Batman: Under The Red Hood, I mostly stray towards Hal Jordans comics lol. I don’t think theres any major instance where Jason talks about Tim replacing him by specifically using replacement or replacing (It can be inferred from his speech sometimes, but Jason’s relationship with Tim was much more complex than that. I’d recommend reading @ectonurites metas about the two to get a better idea) Theres a few instances in 2015 post-New 52 reboot where Jason says explicitly that Tim replaced him, but that was way after the nickname was popularised.

Red Hood and Arsenal #7 (2015)

Final Notes

That’s about it! That’s the result of my month long dive into almost twenty years worth of DC fandom history as a fun side project. Please don’t harass anyone linked here, this was just project to pass the time and not a call out post for anyone that did contribute to the popularisation of the nickname.

Feel free to ask me anything else about this or any other DC fandom history and I’ll try to research it!! This was genuinely a fun thing to do to pass the time and work out my research muscles.

[aingeal98]

I think there's a misconception among some fans who mostly get their characterisation from ao3, that the reason Cass and Jason wouldn't get along is that Jason kills people and Cass hates murderers. And like. You're 50% right but the key context being ignored is that Cass would literally fight to defend the right of a serial killer to live and change like she believes desperately in second chances no matter how far gone the killer is. She'll knock a man out and break his hand so that he can never shoot and kill someone again but if she sees someone feel bad about their kill or even like. Hesitate to hurt a child. She is all over that like she will fight the world just to save this one kind of shitty assassin and give them a second chance at life where they can do better.

Whereas Jason believes that sometimes there are bad people that are simply too far gone, too much of a force of evil hurting and draining actual innocents. And the best way to deal with scumbags like that is a bullet. He feels that some people don't deserve to live, and he's comfortable ending their lives. Judge, jury and executioner. Because no one else is going to kill these people and they deserve to die so that they can never hurt any victims again.

Of course all of this is kind of irrelevant in current canon since dc basically skipped over the reconciliation and development and went yeah Jason is a batfam member and he doesn't kill anymore. So currently in canon none of this conflict of ideals is likely to be addressed. But a lot of people are interested in writing fics that actually detail the steps of reconciliation which is great and I love those fics. I've just also noticed a trend of fumbling a little when it comes to Cass.

Because the root cause as to why they wouldn't get along is not just because Jason kills people. If Jason was a random crime lord Cass would probably try to help him get free of Gotham and start over somewhere else. Killing people and having conflicting emotions about it is the easiest way to get Cass willing to be your number one sponsor at murderer rehabilitation anonymous. It's Jason being someone personal to the family, and someone who believes that some deaths need to happen, as long as the person is sufficiently repulsive enough to Jason. Or even just as a means to an end to prove a larger point, if they're pathetic and evil enough. That's what would make Cass see red, because she projects herself on every single killer and Jason dismissing the possibility of redemption for them, writing them off as deserving of death, clashes fundamentally with not just everything Cass believes in, but also her whole sense of self. Of course it's not that deep for Jason like he's not going to believe Cass should die because she killed someone as a child. But for Cass is simply IS that deep and you throw in the fact that they're both Bruce's kids and yeah. They can maybe be civil in a room together with the family right up until one of them actually talks. Because like 99% of what they could say is guaranteed to touch a nerve for the other.

It's like: Damian says something hilarious and rude towards Jason and Jason jokes about that time he shot him and Cass immediately connects that with him not feeling bad about shooting Damian and starts grilling him as to why. Because Damian's Bruce's son? Or because he's a killer? Or just to get to the rest of the family? And Dick, Duke and Tim are so tired like Alfred cooked a nice meal can we all just eat pie for one night without having to listen to you two go at it.

Tim: I've literally shot you before do you think maybe we can cool it on fighting about Jason's personal ethics tonight. Because generally that ends with me in pain even if I do nothing but sit here.

Cass: You shot me with consent. Different.

Jason: How are you even more obnoxious than Bruce? Do you ever get tired of being so exhausting to be around with your bullshit righteousness?

Cass: If you're tired I can knock you out. Nice nap for you and fun for me.

Dick: And that's ten minutes in a room together before any threats of physical harm start flying around! Great job you two, a new personal record.

[windybluebelles]

Batfam Ages!

WOOOOO LETS GO

This is a mishmash of canon ages in an attempt to make a coherent time line, this is in no way actual fact, these are just ages that make sense to me. Feel free to give constructive criticism if something is entirely inaccurate

Also, I think some things I’ve put in this timeline aren’t strictly canon at the moment, but I like them sooooo

Bruce Wayne became Batman at 21 after training with the league of assassins for like 3 years

Dick Grayson is 10 when his parents die,

24 year old Bruce Wayne saw it happen

And 2 year old Tim Drake was in the audience

Barbara Gordon became batgirl when she was 12 and Dick was 11

The Titans was formed when Dick was 14

When Dick was 16 he left home and became Nightwing a year later,

9 year old Tim Drake starts stalking Batman (and Robin/Nightwing)

Damian al Ghul is born when Bruce is 31

32 year old Bruce Wayne adopted 12 year old Jason Todd

Jason Todd died at 15,

22 year old Babs gets beaten by the joker and becomes disabled

Tim Drake started training to be Robin around six months later and became Robin at 13, Bruce is 36

Spoiler becomes an active Vigilante when both her and Tim are 14

15ish year old Tim gets beat up by 18 year old Jason Todd (maybe 19 idk) in Titans Tower

16 year old Tim temporarily stops being Robin,

16 year old Steph became Robin

40 year old Bruce finally meets 9 year old Damian Wayne

41 year old Bruce is lost in the time stream,

11 year old Damian becomes Robin

42 year old Bruce starts fostering 16 year old Duke Thomas

…Gang I’m gonna be honest, I know borderline NOTHING about Cass’s character, I have no clue where to put her on the time line

No idea if any of what I just wrote is in anyway correct or makes any sense, I did try and reference canon using Birthdays and such but I think I definitely fucked up Damian

The only thing im pretty sure is officially no longer canon is Tim being at the circus when Dick’s parents died, but I love that concept so much and really don’t care. Also, a lot of comics just decide to not make Babs disabled, which is a massive bummer

I’m pretty sure young Batman is only a thing from a few films but the idea of him being a vigilante when he can barely drink is funny to me

Also, and this really has nothing to do with the time line, the idea of both the teen titans tv shows and the titans comics being canon is so funny to me. Like, yes, of course they did all that wacky shit in the span of approximately 3 years (not counting after Dick becomes Nightwing)

I know people don’t like the TV shows (especially TTG) due to how badly characterised they are, but the concept is funny to me

[casscainmainly]

I know your not really much of a Jason Todd fan but I kinda wanna hear your opinion on this. Is the Bruce Wayne Brainwshing Jason Todd still canon? If so so you think it’s out of character for Bruce to do this.

Also how do you feel about Bruce’s characterization in modern comics in general actually?

Honestly it’s one of the reasons I’m kinda hesitant to read the comics, because while I’m super interested in all the lore- both Batman himself and his family (especially Cassandra she sounds awesome I love characters that show unwavering, intense dedication to compassion)I DONT want to read comics where Bruce is like, a completely awful paranoid asshole with none ofhis redeemable qualities (I got interested in Batman via clips of the JLU/BTAS)And according to a lot of Batman fans his characterization in this respect has been on a downward spiral for years now.

Like I’m not even a “god dad Bruce Wayne” person, I think his actions regarding Stephane Brown make a lot of sense for him actually and play into the effect that Jason Todd’s death has on him well and kinda wanna read me about that outside of fanfiction.

PS.Sorry if this ask is long and kinda random, I know this is mostly a Cassandra Cain blog.

Interesting question!! I'm not an expert on Bruce or Jason, so I'll answer to the best of my knowledge. I'm assuming Bruce brainwashing Jason is a reference to Gotham War, when he injects fear toxin into Jason's brain to make him afraid anytime he experiences adrenaline. I haven't read this so I can't comment too much, but this breakdown is useful if you want context for what led Bruce to this moment; it did happen in an in-continuity comic, so yes, it is (unfortunately) canon.

Some things to note for the context of Gotham War is that Bruce is grappling with Zur-En-Arrh, a sort of second personality. While this doesn't make it good writing, Bruce is not 100% in-character when he injects Jason. Whether or not that absolves him of wrongdoing is questionable, but it's a little unfair to Bruce as a character, and even to Chip Zdarsky as a writer, to think the thing with Jason was meant to be an in-character moment. So while I do think injecting Jason is out of character, that's kind of the point of the arc.

That's not to say the run is well-written. I can't judge myself, but many people dislike this run for numerous reasons. But this is just one of Bruce's modern runs - there are many more amazing Bruce comics out there. Ram V's Detective Comics and Scott Snyder's Absolute Batman are two fantastic takes on Bruce (though the latter is an alternate universe and ongoing, it's so far extremely entertaining!).

There will always be better and worse times for a character's characterisation, and you will encounter some horrible stuff in canon, but you'll find some life-changing stories too. You sound like you genuinely want to delve into comics, so please do! Don't let the risk of reading something bad stop you - there is so much good in here, stories that will make you laugh and cry and stick in your mind forever.

Since you're specifically looking for dad Bruce Wayne stuff, here are some recommendations!

Batgirl (2000): a very nuanced portrayal of Bruce as a dad to Cass. Definitely not a Good Dad Bruce at all, but he genuinely loves her and tries his hardest. 5/10 on the Good Dad Bruce scale.

Tynion's Detective Comics (2016): very good starter comic in general for the Batfam, and Bruce has numerous sweet moments with Tim and Cass (Steph too, if you count her as a kid). 8/10 on the Good Dad Bruce scale.

Robin & Batman (2021): not 100% sure if this is in continuity, but it's 3 issues and a lovely depiction of early Dick and Bruce. Features very realistic mishaps on Bruce's part, but sets up the foundation for a strong, beautiful relationship. 6.5/10 on the Good Dad Bruce scale. (This is also getting a sequel featuring Jason!)

World's Finest: Batman/Superman (2022-): an ongoing series that is pure comic book fun. Robin!Dick features heavily here, and there's some wonderful Batdad moments. 8.5/10 on the Good Dad Bruce scale.

Tom Taylor's Nightwing: probably the best dad Bruce in modern comics, and has very sweet moments with Dick throughout. One big caveat is the characterisation can be off, so I recommend this only in the context of Bruce being a good dad to Dick. 10/10 on the Good Dad Bruce scale.

You also can't go wrong with either Batman and Robin (2011) or (2023), which focus on Damian and Bruce (haven't read either but 2023 in particular seems to have good dad Bruce). Batman & The Signal and Batman & The Outsiders (2019) have great Duke-Bruce moments, while Bruce Wayne: The Road Home: Batgirl is the best Steph-Bruce stuff we'll ever get that isn't wildly out of character. Batman and Robin: Year One is currently coming out for more Robin!Dick and Bruce relationship cuteness and drama.

I hope that answered your ask! I am mostly a Cass blog but I do love to talk about other characters so no need to apologise :)).

[luxaofhesperides]

Listen. I love the dcxdp crossover. It’s a lot of fun! There’s so much that can be done for this crossover, with all the characters and settings and the many plots that can spring up from them. But as much as I love writing for it and sharing my fics with the community, there’s been a significant uptick in things that are rubbing me the wrong way. Some of these things have to do with canon vs fanon, but others are more about the shifting culture of the community.

(keep in mind that I only see things on Tumblr and am not in any discords, so my experience will be different from others bc I have a more limited experience with the wider community)

(putting it all under a read more bc its long)

Let’s start off with a look at what we’re doing as a group:

Building off of completed fics on tumblr: I always thought the etiquette is to not build off of a completed work without permission. Someone had an idea and executed it, then shared it with us. It should end there. If you want to add to it, contact the author first and see if it’s something they’re fine with; some will say no, some will say yes, some will say yes but be sure to credit them for the original fic. A lot of what I’m seeing is a completed fic gets added on to in a way that completely takes it away from the original idea. Having experienced this myself (on a requested prompt from someone else, no less), I found it kind of rude. Maybe it’s just me, but a completed fic is not a prompt request or something open for building up another story around. It’s already completed. Leave the story as is and let the author know you liked it.

Expecting others to write for you: the prompts are what build this crossover fandom, in my eyes. Prompts are posted and people create something around them, either as a group by adding onto what other people are saying, or as individual fics that one person wrote. Now I’m seeing people throw out prompts that are basically fic outlines, then begging others to write something for it. Like, those prompts are already written! They have very specific details! Why not write it yourself? You’re already halfway there, you can just write the thing you want to see and post it. It’s not about being ‘good’ or ‘bad’ at writing, it’s about crafting an idea to share to the world. Why ask others to write it for you when you’ve already practically done it?

But also, you are not owed fic. This might just be general fandom burn out talking, but being a fic author who has been treated like a machine? It sucks. I love writing, but I share what I write because what I wrote made me happy and I wanted to share that with others. I’m not a content creating machine who has to pump out fic after fic for other people’s entertainment. I just want to share what I love and having people pop up in my notifs only going “write more/tag me/sequel?/etc” is tiring. I get that it’s coming from a place of love bc you liked the fic enough to want to see more, but please actually talk about what I’ve already written instead of going “update? More? MORE????”

Hostility to DC canon: I get that DC canon is a mess, but it still is a canon and has a lot of cool stuff! I’m seeing a lot of posts recently about how dpxdc people refuse to engage with the comics, and I need to let yall know that this is not a new thing. DC fans also refuse to engage with the comics (it’s mostly batfam) and it’s very easy to tell who has and who hasnt ready batfam related stuff bc the fanon is incredibly wrong about characterisation and what happened in comics. But that’s for a different post.

I’m seeing both sides of the argument (this is for fun, reading comics isn’t required, don’t like don’t read vs it’s tiring seeing people butcher my favorite characters into ocs with their name/face, I want to share my love for comics but there’s so much pushback, it shouldn’t be weird to expect people engaging with a media to have actually engaged with that media). And I think you should engage with comics! DP is a unique case in which fanon is for the most part better and more interesting than the original show (also death to the author/butch hartman), but DC comics shouldn’t be engaged with in that way. If you like the characters you see in dpxdc, you should read about them in comics! The whole point of a fandom is that you’re a fan of the original media. That’s why you’re engaging with it in this way, writing within the world and characters and canon.

I don’t know how people write for fandoms when they’re not familiar with the source material. I wanted to write dcxdp so I started rewatching DP. I’m reading comics. I want to know the characters and their stories so I can have a foundation to write from, and also to better understand the media so I can share my love for it. The refusal to engage with source material while engaging with its fandom is so strange to me.

Also dc fans who love the comics are great! In my experience, they’re very kind and willing to help you jump into comics! Don’t know where to start? Pick a character or team and follow them! Want a reading guide? We’ve got TONS. want thoughts on a specific character or comic run? Just ask!

Now to more specific points about what I’m seeing in dcxdp works:

Mischaracterized batfam: this is a group of people who are disasters and have complicated relationships with each other. They’re kind, wonderful people who bring out the best and worst in each other. Why is Batman always adopting people. Why is this a running joke with the batfam. I get it being a joke the first few times, but I’ve seen it so often and done like it’s accurate characterization that I just. I can’t. I leave that fic immediately. I can’t do it anymore. Batman is paranoid and tried very hard to keep kids away from him/away from being a vigilante. Unfortunately all the kids he got are stubborn and smart so he was doomed from the beginning.

Superman and Kon: you guys are pretty much only pulling from Young Justice Animated which I think is a terrible adaptation, but that’s my own taste. But seriously. Clark is kind. That’s an important part of his character! He’s the strongest man in the world and he’s kind. He was also dead when Kon first appeared as a experiment from CADMUS in Hawaii. They’re not father-son, but they are family and they do care for each other, once they get to know each other. Also Kon is not an angry broody boy, he’s funny! And annoying! pls read kon comics guys, i promise youll like his actual character

Chronos??? Guys. Chronos is not a god in DC canon. He is in Greek mythology, but in DC he’s a Captain Atom villain and he’s literally just a guy who got obsessed with having perfect timing. He’s themed around clocks. He has nothing to do with time travel or time gods. The Speedforce is Time, basically, and it is not human. It is an eldritch being beyond our comprehension that can eat people. If it chooses to have a human form, it’s going to choose to look like Bart. Please read Flash stuff, it’s interesting!

Lazarus Pit Madness lasts like 5 minutes in canon. Jason having it, and being affected by it for years, is a purely fanon thing from the dc side. Not going to say anything more on this because it goes into Jason Todd discourse.

Repetition: I’m sorry but I’m tired of seeing the same things over and over. I barely see anything out of the dcxdp tags thats new and fun to engage with. Everything is the same variation of “Danny helps Pit Mad Jason”, “Bruce insta-adopts Danny”, “Superman is mean to clones”, etc etc. Think of any popular dcxdp trope and that’s all you’ll see. I get why these are fun and popular, but the way it’s being engaged with now? It literally makes me exit Tumblr and put my phone down.

Not every prompt has to go down the same routes as the other prompts. Please explore more options, branch out, twist those tropes around to do something new with them. And also stop going onto other people’s fics and saying “what about [dcxdp trope]? Cant wait to see [dcxdp trope]! You should have [dcxdp] trope.” If I didn’t include it, it’s not included for a reason. There are hundreds of other fics that write specifically about those exact tropes. Read those, or write your own. (im being super bitter here but please just let me write what i want to write without trying to pull the story into another direction for a trope you like. Im writing for me, but sharing it for you. Not every fic needs those tropes in them.)

Tumblr specific things: this is less about the content and more about general posting etiquette. Please put long posts under a read more. If it’s more then three paragraphs, consider adding a read more if there is significantly MORE than three paragraphs. Tag appropriately. Content warnings and trigger warnings should be at the very top of the post and in the tags so they can be properly blocked. If you’re posting fic/prompt, please double check your spelling and fix any typos you find because posts that are filled with excessive typos are difficult to read.

There’s probably a lot more to talk about, but just getting this much out is tiring and, frankly, I don’t want to think on it any more today. If you reply/add comments, I won’t get to them in a while bc I will be writing ghostlights and yhk fic to lift my mood :)

[noiriviere]

Apologies for possibly lacking full context (I am still reading through the comics, chronologically orz) but if anyone would like to leave their 2 cents on this I would appreciate it! I've seen complaints about how Tim's character has been underutilised in recent years (and I'm inclined to agree) but what bothers me is that I have seen a lot of people complaining that him being bi is also part of the problem and that it set him back as a character. Which bothers me. A lot. I don't hold any particularly strong feelings about Fitzmartin's (short) run but I really like that Tim is now bi in canon! And I don't find it strange or like it came out of the blue either. I do hope (but this is DC we're talking about) that someday we'll get a better and more fledged backstory for Bernard and how he and Tim reconnected.

I don't see how that would set him back as a character though? If anything I think it's more of a "X writer has a favourite Robin and it shows" with the characterisation of the batfam. Or the whole "Tim is perpetually 17 and not moving on from Robin anytime soon" thing. I can understand being worried about how he will be written when it comes to his queerness from now on (as in, if it will be good representation and the like) but not thinking that him being bi completely ruins him as a character. Anyway, I'm running on my last braincell here and idk where I was going with this but yeah! Tim being bi isn't the problem nor do I think it's the reason why his writing has been leaving much to be desired lately.

[batfamfucker]

There are four main types of Batfam fans in regard to how people interpret Bruce Wayne as a dad (/Joking. This is mostly satire and should not be taken seriously):

Fans that think Bruce is emotionally constipated and isn't the best at being a parent but still tries (Differs per person). Don't necessarily think he's absuive but thinks he can be toxic or have unhealthy expectations for the Robins. Can smell the Oldest Daughter Syndrome coming from Dick and have Family Line (By Conan Gray) as their top song on their Dick inspired playlist and Daddy Issues (By The Neighbourhood) for Jason.

Fans that choose to believe Bruce goes to therapy in their own canon. Love B:WFA. Thinks the comic can be cheesy at times and so find a balance between B:WFA Bruce and Please Go To Therapy BruceTM as their middle ground. He struggles. They advocate that Bruce is not a bad parent, he just has bad writers that seem to forget Bruce wouldn't hurt kids, especially not his own. Love the humane moments and scenes he has in BTAS and the early JL cartoons. He may not be perfect but he's not literally abusive. Whores for Bruce being able to admit when he is wrong and for Jason and Bruce reconciling. I recommend Grow As We Go by Ben Platt for this one.

A mix between the first two. Was fine-ish when Dick was younger. Didn't help him in the healthiest way but eh. Still emotionally constipated but that happened more so after Dick left and Jason died. Started getting better when Tim came back but was still closed off. Should probably go to therapy with the kids so they can drag his ass about all the things he's done that have actually affected them negatively. Understands his mistakes and is also able to admit when he's wrong, eventually. It's not easy but he starts to do better and learns to be more emotionally available. Still has to get chewed out by Alfred sometimes but definitely better than he used to be and it shows. Reconciliation is slow and gradual but progress is made for everyone involved.

The one's I personally avoid for my own sanity and wellbeing:

Think Bruce is a complete bastard and abuser. Want him to choke. Hate any and all interpretations of him. Some of which will refuse to understand how anyone could have a different interpretation. Will point out comics where, in all fairness, he is a dick but forget that characterisation can significantly differ from one series to the next, as comic characters are constantly passed around to different writers and have been for decades. Not to mention movies, shows, etc.

[jasmasson]

Rec: DCU/Batman: Recollect, Re-collect by Ptelea

Fandom: Batman/DCU Pairings/Characters: Jason Todd, Batfamily Members & Jason Todd, Dick Grayson & Jason Todd, Alfred Pennyworth & Jason Todd, Jason Todd & Bruce Wayne, Tim Drake & Jason Todd Rating: Teen and up Length: 94,000 Creator Links: Ptelea at AO3 Theme: Magic, Batfam, memory loss

Summary: Jason would tell you that his most recent case, where he stopped a wannabe warlock's spell-in-progress, went just fine.

Jason would also tell you he was fine with the distant, prickly status quo of his relationships with the other Bats.

(Jason is maybe not the most reliable of narrators.)

Or: A spell gone wrong leads to Jason hashing some things out--with himself, with Dick, and with the rest of the Batfam. Featuring: rather a lot of thoughts and conversations about memory, change, damage, love and trust, accountability, family, hurt, lies, death, Spyral, pedestals, cases, memorials, stories, and Robin.

Reccer’s Notes: This is a Jason Todd focused fic, but also an incredible ensemble piece, where every single member of the bat family is portrayed brilliantly. DCU does have very patchy consistency in canon characterisation, but this author takes pretty much the best versions of these characters and brings them to life with sympathy, consistency and authenticity. The characterisations and character interactions here are very compelling, and the magically induced memory loss gives us an exciting storyline to really explore Jason Todd and his relationships with the bat family. If you enjoy Jason Todd and Batfam fics, you will not be disappointed!

Fanwork links: Recollect, Re-collect