#can the odyssey be considered as having a fandom?

[coolunspokenforname]

Okay, but Odysseus did not cheat, at least not with Circe or Calypso. As much as I am for giving shit to people who cheat, what happened with Circe and Calypso can not be considered cheating, since Odysseus' consent is incredibly dubious.

Both Circe and Calypso had a lot of power over him. Both could have killed him if he didn't do as they asked. Circe could have killed his men too, and Calypso literally held Odysseus captive for years, to the point where when she touched him, he flinched. He was literally crying by the beach for years, and she only let him go when Hermes (a God more powerful than her) told her to.

It's really disappointing how people so quickly see Odysseus being forced into sex, and automatically villainize him. Trust me, there are many shitty things Odysseus has done (mass murder, kidnapping, etcetera), and you could probably even find times where Odysseus does cheat, but using Circe and Calypso as examples is absolutely awful.

(Just to note, this post is based on the Emily Wilson translation since that is the one I read. However, the power dynamics are pretty much the same in every translation, so my point still stands.)

[seddair]

,

[onesaltyerik]

genuinely as an art historian, it pains me when any piece of media is deleted. it's literally a snapshot of historical storytelling that was created in an incredibly unique way through the collaborative efforts of so many creative people. it's never 'just fandom/fanart/fanfiction', the majority of the great artworks of history are literally just fan works of popular religious/historical/folkloric tales and people of the time, i kid you not! and we live in a section of time where much of our history is going to be stored digitally rather than in a physical hard copy, making it already difficult to ensure its preservation for future appreciation and study, so the fact that so much of the dsmp and many other online storytelling media is just...capable of being deleted just like that, it's genuinely heartbreaking.

on top of that, we live in an era where many, and i mean MANY, people now have access to storytelling tools outside of oral tradition and painted canvases. meaning that you don't HAVE to go to a fancy school or pay a ton of money to be able to make your mark on the creative world, you can just create and display your works for those who appreciate it. this is a part of history where we can see a collective generation's wealth of knowledge and creativity in one place rather than just a select few individual's works who's legacies are only still around due to people who appreciated their works and wanted to continue their stories. we now have thousands, if not millions of voices of creativity who have the tools now to speak their mind, that is HUGE in terms of historical relevance!

i really hope that more media will be recovered and preserved, the world needs to remember the stories of the folk. the world deserves to create and be given creation. (yes i'm waxing poetic, this is my main source of study, shush.)

but yeah pls archive and keep archiving the stories you love!

i do mean it when i say 10 years in the future, the dsmp itself might have some case of lost media bc of a mix of the amt of streams we can't recover, biased recaps, and the purges of dsmp-related accounts both on twt and tumblr. it is already hard for me to find streams unrelated to ctommy or cwilbur, and it doesn't help that a good percent of the analysis essay posts we've archived in dsmpanalysis have been completely deleted.

of course any person can experience any piece of media at any time but truly, the dsmp was something else when experienced live because it was a testament to the importance of perspective and individual choices on which story you wanted to follow. if it weren't for archiving projects and dedicated fans, the dsmp would have been perceived in such a one-sided way.

20% of the archived essays i've been sifting through have already heen deleted. a good portion of the fics i've bookmarked have been orphaned or deleted. besides the slight upset i feel about the story and the progress of the dsmp being deleted, i think i'm more upset about the complete decimation of fan content. it's like, i get why they deleted their stuff— the dsmp has its fair share of controversy— but what made the dsmp fun and worthwhile was the fan creativity.

and now a good percentage of that is gone. i don't hope to doompost about anything because i don't rlly think the fandom is going anywhere. but it is definitely a shock to me how much history of the dsmp has completely disappeared just in the span of 2 years.

[theglassesgirl]

The Ithaca Saga: What IS a Monster, how it’s presented, and when fictional S.A is integral to the plot.

So -

This was originally a response to @ / anniflamma which you can still find on my page unedited. But with the new discourse surrounding the suitors, I figured I could retool it as a standalone essay to express a topic I’ve been trying to pin down for a while now; What exactly does the mean when they call a character a monster? What do they do, do the reasons matter, and how does the subject of rape affect how the fandom consider some monsters more unforgivable than others? When IS rape in fiction “necessary” and why such questions defeat the purpose of exploratory creative works.

In this post we will discuss all the major antagonists of the Epic Musical, Penelope’s agency, the label of Monster and the types of moralizing one might do when faced with uncomfortable subjects in fiction and how to prevent these feelings from blinding is about what a story is trying to say.

For those who read my original response; there’s new content to read here and posts that will be referred to, if you’d like to give it another gander!

Thank you,

Let’s begin;

I think making the threat of rape explicit was very much needed, actually.

It’s come to my attention that there are people here and on tiktok who are so uncomfortable with the subject matter in this CENTURIES old tale that they’re both refusing to accept that it plays an important part in the original poem and musical, AND are bizarrely insisting that Jorge should have magically done away with it to make more palatable.

This is beyond juvenile - it’s a clear sign of media illiteracy.

What, if I may ask, do you think it means when you say that the suitors are going to force Penelope to choose one of them to marry.

You may respond that they want to take over Ithaca. That they want to be king. But take a moment to consider what forcing a woman to marry one of them will entail. I wonder if you think that one can divorce the idea of sexual violence in this plot.

It would be…unfathomably difficult to do so. Because you CANT. There is an implicit threat of Penelope’s will breaking and having to have unwilling and reluctant sex with any one of them in the event she just gave up and picked one.

This isn’t a storyline that depicts Penelope of being willing to marry any of the suitors. She is WAITING for her husband’s return. Even if he doesn’t, she doesn’t WANT to marry someone else. Her consent is being violated by the very merit of them being in her palace, eating her food, and threatening her son.

They’re doing ALL OF THIS in order to bend her will in the HOPES of raping her as a bonus to becoming king of Ithaca.

My contention is the use of “unnecessary” when it comes to this trope in media - though themes of rape can be uncomfortable, to call them unnecessary HAVE to meet certain criteria. Which this specific instance doesn’t.

By observing various responses, it’s clear that the threat of rape went completely over many’s head in this instance of the story. So I very must appreciate Jorge making it SO clear that it’s upsetting.

This part of the odyssey, and the musical, is very much about Penelope suffering under the threat of assault for YEARS. In the same way Odysseus was (a thing I touched upon in my calypso essay, in terms of his ambiguous situation in the musical) - it’s a parallel that works as both Antinous and Calypso were introduced (regardless on your personal interpretation of what Calypso did or did not do, but that’s neither here nor there).

It has taken an emotional and psychological toll of either spouse. And the kicker is that neither of them are freed of this situation on their own - they are both rescued by outside forces. Athena/Hermes helps free Odysseus; Athena/Odysseus will help free Penelope.

The looming threat of rape is SO necessary that it helps the catharsis factor we feel toward PENELOPE’s story - it’s nothing to do w Odysseus who by now is a force of nature as big as Poseidon, his actions happen TO her, and it’s up to her to decide (per “would you love me” ) what she feels about that. She can very well reject him! She’s suffered under male violence for YEARS. Odysseus’s violence and those of the suitors toward her are basis enough for the comparison.

Do all men, including her husband, become violent? Does she want to put up with that? We know from her song snippets that she is NOT a woman that simply succumbs to the Rape Rescue trope as suggested by ignorant consumers of media - and I call it ignorance and consumerism because there’s a clear lack of engaging with the material in an intuitive way. It’s just blind consumption - as if one bites into a burger and find a pickle, which you personally don’t like, and having it removed - you can’t treat ART that way .

Penelope is a very intuitive and emotionally intelligent queen. Stop infantilizing her. Her own husband suggests that like the suitors, his actions make him just as bad as they are and presents his hope as being understanding if she rejects him on those grounds. But those ARENT her grounds. She has full autonomy and can make a distinction FOR HERSELF whether she considers her husband equal to the monsters who have harmed her.

So let’s talk about the “Monster” label as it is presented on the entire musical.

Some have erroneously suggested that Odysseus has been given an out to commit cruel and ruthless deeds with out “good justification” - he does it for his family,, after all!

Which is a misunderstanding of everything every antagonist of each saga has done.

Let’s start with the Troy Saga: Odysseus has killed a BABY. He made the choice to put his family over this child. Everything he has done and lost would be for literally NOTHING if he hadn’t, as even if he had killed the suitors and regained everything - the GODS themselves would make sure that child would come to an aged Odysseus and slaughter him, Penelope, Telemachus and his entire kingdom when he came of age.

Odysseus STARTS as a monster. We have been rooting for the man who laid Troy and its children asunder. As such, the label of a monster is NOT so much a morally subjective label - it simply a thing that IS. Or rather. It is what ALL the antagonists ARE, but it’s hardly a condemnation of any of them.

(Peep that one of the first lines Ody says refers back to in the Vengeance Saga is what he did to Troy - he STILL views his actions over there as unforgivable, so not even HE will ever see himself otherwise, the problem was that he felt so guilty over it that he became a detriment (a different kind of monster) to his friends and family when they were all guilty of the same thing and trying to get home.)

ALL of the antagonists have a “good reason” to kill ALL the soldiers (who again, have looted and slaughtered the Trojans) Odysseus and his close friends included. Whether your AGREE is almost irrelevant…because the story itself proposes that it’s irrelevant.

The next saga introduces the cyclops: his motivation is primarily that his FRIENDS the sheep have been slaughtered. You can argue in the scope of things, you can’t empathize with this but it’s his good reason. He’s the son of a god, and these sheep are all he has. His friends, who matter to him as much as Polites does to Ody, are being taken and slain, he is being drugged, attacked and maimed. VERY much was Ody goes through in the final saga. And even so.

The Cyclops is antagonistic to the party, he’s a monster who feels justified killing to avenge his killed sheep. A monster is a thing he IS.

As Poseidon’s son, he asks his father to kill the 600 men who have ransacked his home and beat on him. He doesn’t view his father as being wrong for this. In the same ways Ody and Telemachus don’t waste any time addressing the slain suitors later on. Poseidon is a monster of a god - it’s just a thing he is. Not even being stabbed 100 times is enough to repay the harm he’s done - to most everyone, not just Ody, but we are not asked to quantify that. Just live with it.

Circe has killed NUMEROUS men over the years. HER “good reason” is that something bad happened to her nymphs when she let a stranger in her islands. She doesn’t even promise that she WONT kill in the future - her song ends w the suggestion that the world may continue to need her to puppeteer! Because she does not exist to be “redeemed” - she is somewhat more reasonable and capable of empathy than even the likes Athena, who being a greater and more powerful god, does not have the one on one affection to her follows as Circe does. She’s a monster! It’s a label, a thing she IS.

So here we begin to ask; is it LOVE that gives people the capacity to do monstrous things? Because the cyclops loved his sheep friends, Poseidon loves his son, Circe loves her nymphs.

And by now you’re saying now wait a minute didn’t the Underworld Saga go over this? Why yes it did! And Odysseus decides to “become the monster” - he already IS one by the standards of the cyclops, Poseidon, Troy - they all see him as a monstrous being. But he accepts that, after being one in Troy, he held back and ruined the lives of his men, making him a monster to THEM. His “good reason” for being so!

He attempts very hard to be the General he was in Troy and prioritize them going home, sparing no sympathy towards his enemies - but in the Thunder Saga we see the gods further push him to be completely self-serving like they are. The sun gods cows are harmed, he sends Zeus in relation - his “good reason” being his friend were personally harmed.

Odysseus’s “good reason” is ultimately decided to be the same good reason he had to slaughter the Trojans - to get back home to his wife and son.

Like with the Cyclops sheep, Circe’s nymphs, The Sun gods cows, and Poseidons son, WE are shocked and made to feel some type of way about Odyseuss’s reasoning. Surely HIS personal suffering shouldn’t cost the lives of “innocent” men…but it does! It surely does.

He is a monster. It’s just a thing he IS.

Now, Odysseus spends the next seven years under the thumb of ANOTHER monster. And through calypso own reasoning, despite her tragic backstory, her “good reason” she IS a monster. She’s incapable of understanding why she wasn’t reciprocated. Incapable of empathizing with a human because as a god who has spent eternity alone, it stands to reason she, like all the other monsters mentioned before, prioritizes HER personal suffering over everyone else’s. In some versions she either kills herself or does spend the rest of eternity alone. She’s a monster. This is a thing she IS.

Now what the HELL does all this have to do with the suitors?

Odysseus started the musical a MONSTER. He’s worn different hats, but it is what he IS. It’s a label, not a moral critique.

ALL of the antagonists of every saga have a “good reason” NONE of them are ruthless for ruthlessness sake! It’s immaterial whether you agree with them or not, but to understand them for what they are.

Odysseus is the antagonist of the ithica saga, md while the suitors are the antagonist to him and his family, we see their fate form THEIR POV

The suitors could not have been depicted as “rude youthful men” like Telemachus. That Odysseus killing them should be shocking - a frightening condemnation of everything he’s done and became. But I ask once again - in what world are the suitors not implicitly set up as monsters?

Because again. They aren’t being rude for rudeness’s sake! They aren’t JUST eating Penelope’s food and sleeping in HER house. Them threatening Telemachus, as you propose, isn’t “enough” of a reason because they didn’t wake up one day beefing w this boy. Everything they do is for the express purpose of sexual violence towards the Queen of Ithaca, who upon assaulting, will make it so any one of them will be King.

You can’t separate the one from the other. You get a nonsense scenario. The whole REASON they’re there in the first place.

Even if you create a fanfic where 108 men wake up one day and raid the palace to slaughter the royal family with no intent of sexually assaulting either (because remember Telemachus is also the subject of Hold Em Down) and then fight amongst themselves to be the next king, but then isn’t that STILL a “good reason” for Odysseus to slaughter them?

Now I hear what you may be asking: but if all the monsters of the sagas, Odysseus included, have a “good reason” even though we might not agree with it, what kind of monsters does that make the suitors? Surely and clearly THEY aren’t doing what they’re doing for noble reasons.

I consider them akin to the 600 men who died under their captains command.

Because, as stated before. Odysseus views his actions in a Troy as his start of monstrosity. He did all that to finish the war and do back home. He ruined the lives of all Trojans.

So did his soldiers.

The only moment in time (even in the deleted songs) that the bulk of them repent about the war is in terms that it left them without food.

But glasses! They were just following orders!

Which is what one of the suitors suggest in song 38. Their serpents head is dead, THEY were just going with Antinous’ flow, they are innocent.

Like the 600 soldiers, the 108 suitors sacked a home that wasn’t theirs and harmed a wife and child - does them being the queen and prince pale in comparison to the hundreds of wives and children slain in Troy? Homer is a genius to ask us to see these parallels for what it is.

The suitors ARE monsters. That is simply what all 108 of them are. In the context of the story itself, their intent is to break Penelope’s will, commit martial rape, and become king of Ithaca. They aren’t there for kicks, they aren’t ignorant boys, they’re socially accepted adults abusing the hospitality rule with an express purpose.

So a GROUP of monsters are slaughtered by ANOTHER monster, and though in this instance we can argue it’s morally justifiable, it doesn’t take away from Odysseus’s fear of being rejected by his family. He has ruined the lives of the Trojans, his men, AND multiple gods! To get to this point. He IS a monster. And the story asks US, through Penelope, if he is still worth loving.

Seeing Penelope as merely his reward is so backwards and bizarre. It’s very clear that bad faith interpretations of her are based on objectifying her erroneously, when the narrative presents her as a fully developed character.

In the story both in the poem and the musical that the suitors ARE NOT her guests. She is being sequestered against her will.

In what world could the suitors be “just” murderers and not….very clearly rapists? It’s BUILT into their motivation. You would have to change the very FOUNDATION of the Ithaca plot line and Penelope herself??? To say nothing of Telemachus’s role!

What’s the proposal here? That Penelope invited these suitors? That’s she’s actively looking for a replacement husband? Okay, again, that changes literally SO MUCH of the story, but wouldn’t that put Telemachus in a position where he too has to change? Does he resent his mother for doing this? Is he helping his dad out of spite or because he wants him back? How are we meant to view Penelope in this radically new and hip Epic the Musical? Is she savvy and in her right to choose a new boo? Okay…okay, so then….you want Odysseus to be the only one unchanged and go axe crazy because….hes jealous? He kills these upstanding men….curtain call. That’s all folks!

Absurdity at its finest. You throw Penelope’s agency out the window. Her weaving and unweaving her loom is meaningless or simply doesn’t happen. Or maybe it’s that she wakes up one day and goes hey yknow what I WILL consider marrying one of these guys with no sense of dread and fear. Oh wait Oddy has killed then all! Never mind me feeling unsafe a week ago, he’s done a Bad.

Crazy.

It’s just…not going to end up making Penelope look like a well written female character if Jorge has done what you wanted! THAT would make her a mindless prop. You seem to think she is one, and that’s not the case. Historically, in fact!

She is a whole person in the poem and musical whether you understand it or not. You would have to argue so thoroughly why she sucks and let me assure you - there are entire DISSERTATIONs on why you’d be incorrect.

So, no.

No, you CANT take away the rape in Penelope’s storyline. It matters ALOT. It’s the ROOT of the matter! Could old school vegetales make something up that’s more to your sensibilities? Maybe at its peak but god, I couldn’t possibly come up with a draft that could reflect that. I won’t even try.

The rape aspect of the Ithica Saga isn’t unnecessary - it’s INTEGRAL to the plot. It can make you uncomfortable, but it’s BUILT into the royal family’s suffering whether it’s explicit or not! And it SHOULD be explicit! Because you seem to think because it usually isn’t, that the rape aspect isn’t there!

I cannot imagine coming to this kind of conclusion.

They are not random men going on a siege of the palace one day - you cannot “sanitize” the SUITORS because by the very merit of them calling each other THE SUITORS there is an implicit threat of sexual violence. Because Penelope doesn’t WANT suitors. She rejects them. They’re already violating her consent.

How the FUCK to do you censor the rape when it’s in every action they take? And I know what you’re saying: but didn’t Jorge censor the rape aspect that both Circe and Calypso commit towards him?

Further reading: suggests that ALLUDING to it is not the same as censoring, that it still FITS the PURPOSE of these characters in regards to Odysseus’s suffering under them. That after ambiguity, it is NECESSARY to make the rape aspect CLEAR in order to create both catharsis and MEANING at the end of the narrative. The THEME is still respected and present, it is not REMOVED. Please consider reading the linked follow up that answers this question.

In short.

It’s truly a matter of using one’s goddamn head when it comes to view fictional depictions of rape as “necessary” - because though some depictions can be presented BADLY, to suggest they should not EXISTS lends itself to rape culture. It silences the voices of victims. Its representation denied. Don’t talk about it, don’t even suggest it, because rape is bad.

It’s an action that happens to people. It’s a crime in civilized society. It’s a physical and psychological trauma that has always been. It happens daily, in fact. Though epic the musical is a source of entertainment for you, it doesnt exist solely for that purpose.

When Homer included it within his original oral story, he did so as a storyteller trying to get his audience to philosophize, not simply have fun.

I think we’ve come to some abysmal conclusion that men can’t write about these topics when we have historical evidence of at least one man knowing what the hell he’s talking about. And Jorge has done a phenomenal job even when he hadn’t depicted blatantly.

If you’re uncomfortable to the point of not wanting to see it at all, that is entirely on you, art and creative works allow us to explore these topics safely. Whether it’s from the POV of the assailant or one of the victims commenting on it, fiction is one of the only places we can talk about it and learn about ourselves in a way it doesn’t harm real people.

I don’t even want to BEGIN discussing all the losers who are still harassing Antinous fans or people who genuinely enjoy his song despite/BECAUSE of the subject matter. Its purpose in the story matters more than you policing how it’s presented and how it’s consumed. No amount of people enjoying themselves will take away the foundational POINT of the character and song. It’s perfect the way it is.

Like with the chaos that calypso discourse wrought, you cannot control how people treat a NOT REAL CHARACTER or the songs they sing - if it bothers you that one type of fictional villian is treated one way or another, it is on you to find likeminded people instead of going into others faces and pretending to be a self-righteous prick. You can throw whatever buzzwords you want, the CONTEXT these characters live in has nothing to do with how others want to play with them. If you don’t understand the difference between the two instances, fandom is certainly not for you and will not be changed to suit your sensibilities.

To end this post, I want to thank those who further asked me questions and bounced ideas off with me, and wow, what a phenomenal ending to a grandiose musical. I hope I can see it live, animated, streamed, developed into a game etc whatever form it takes now that the concept albums are published

Thank you all for engaging w my work💖

[katerinaaqu]

Hello, I have a question. I am not far in my Odyssey reading and I was wondering about the suitors.

In Epic (yes, you hate it I know, but it's my ref for now) the suitors want to SA Penelope, it is explicitly said. I was wondering if in the OG story, the suitors also wanted to harm her in that way or if they didn't have such intentions.

Hate is a strong word but if there is something that I hate is this whole obsession with people treating mythology of my culture as clean slate and free game to do whatever with and spreading so much misinformation about it or have the obsession to change it to THAT degree in the first place. The musical I think it got straight out disrespectful and ridiculous to the original material plot-wise but I do recognize the passion of the people working on it and I appreciate people who regardless of their like or dislike for it that they are curious to find out on the original Odyssey and they do not consider this musical as some sort of equivalent to the original or substitute to it. My disagreement and dislike for it as well as my annoyance that it takes over social media is strictly my business and mind and has nothing to do with fans of course. I also am against fan mentality for greek mythology because mythology is a rich cultural background and important thing to Greek culture and not another fandom like Harry Potter or lord of the Rings or anything. But of course there is nothing I can do about this mentality either

Anyways I am glad you wanna ask on it.

No that was never said in the Odyssey. That seems like yet another piece of random bullocks for the musical to make the suitors even more "evil" and dislikable. However the suitors DID want to force Penelope to choose one of them as her husband so they obviously wanted to force her to marry. They abused the custom of Xenia or hospitality to stay in the palace for 3 to 4 years while eating and drinking everything and doing basically a psychological war to Penelope, harassing Telemachus with their words or insulting him and they would generally be rude or even abusive to slaves and servants that were loyal to Odysseus. They also lay with the several slave girls at the palace that apparel entered the relationship to gain something while others like Penelope's protégé, a girl named Melantho that Penelope raised from infantry like her own daughter, was apparently in love with one of the suitors. The slave girls betrayed Penelope's secret to the suitors (that she was pretending to make the future funeral shroud for Laertes and at night she was destroying it and starting again in the morning, thus keeping the suitors at bay for 3 years only to be discovered at the 4th).

The suitors definitely wanted to force Penelope to get married and they seemed ready to commit even the murder of Odysseus IF he were to come back (of course that seemed more like boasting than anything else since they were almost certain beyond doubt that Odysseus was dead). Later when Telemachus gained courage by Athena to travel and search information on his father (the part of Odyssey called "Telemachy") they got worried and conspired to murder him and set an ambush for him.

All in all the suitors did many things that are downright criminal such as the conspiracy for murder of Telegony and abusing the law of Xenia. They undoubtedly wanted to force Penelope to marry one of them and they were furious at her trick but no it was never stated in the Odyssey that they would...barge into her room and have their way with her. If they wanted to they would have done it from day one. Penelope was a powerful queen and they were all fascinated by her (when she comes out of her room everyone turns to look at her). So yeah basically their main goal was to force her to marry one of them and they planned Telemachus's murder only when he started gaining confidence and they got worried he might take over the throne himself soon. Also most of them were around the same age group as Telemachus (about a decade or so older perhaps) which increased their worry on what if Telemachus took over.

[dootznbootz]

I don't know about you, but I'm a bit mixed about Calypso in EPC. I mean, her songs are good, her singer's quite talented, so I don't have a problem... musically, at least.

But, story-wise, Calypso seems a bit too victim-like in my taste. "I'm not sorry for loving you" seems like it wants to make us sympathize with her and to consider her as Odysseus' friend.

While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her.

On the plus side, "Love in paradise" affirms she's the powerful one and Odysseus later confirms he doesn't love her romantically (plus Athena's 'he never cheated on his wife' line in "God games")

So it won't be detrimental for OdyPen 🥰.

What do you think ?

Oh, I'm definitely mixed about Calypso in Epic. As just like you said:

"While making her nuanced is interesting, the Epic fandom could be inclined to forget what she did to him in the Odyssey. And how miserable he was alongside her."

The Epic Fandom already DOES forget what happens in the Odyssey or think that they are the same thing. :/ I see stuff talking about Scylla in how Odysseus lights the torches and yet, it's tagged as "Odyssey". I love "light up six torches" as it's very dark but also very painful for Epic!Odysseus and that's really fun!

But I get saddened when people think that happened in the Odyssey ;~; as it's one of my favorite parts where Odysseus, knowing that Circe warned him, still goes to put on his armor to try and fight Scylla himself. He tried so fucking hard to save them. And they all grieved later on together. Eurylochus does mutiny in both but in the Odyssey, it isn't because of Scylla or anything. They were all just...Hungry ;~;

That's not even talking about how the Epic Fandom was when we only got the snippet of "There are other ways" ;~;

I still remember when there were jokes about how Odysseus is just like Hamilton and "Couldn't say No to this." Also Circe never did that to "protect her nymphs" in the Odyssey. She did it for funsies as she's a goddess and can do what she wants. That doesn't mean he was happy though.

I DO trust Jay to do well with Calypso's island. While I really am nervous about "I'm not Sorry for Loving you." like very nervous. I think HE'LL also make it clear that Odysseus isn't well or happy. As he has that cut song with the lyrics of:

"Is this some kind of trick? Pretending I can go Because if so, you're sick My heart's already broken"

So even though he cut that song because the beat and the music did NOT fit the situation, I'm very sure he'll have another like it showing Odysseus' despair and suffering.

I just... sighs I'm in a funky situation where I love Epic. I love it a lot. I think it's a genuinely good and fun retelling. I think while some spots are inaccurate, some are still really neat. I just get sad about this almost...disdain towards the actual Odyssey?

"Oh, Odysseus doesn't mention Penelope and Telemachus as much as he does in Epic-" Yes, he does. It's in so many of the metaphors and there's so many moments where he's clearly thinking about them. I love singing Penelope's name longingly too but an ancient epic poem is gonna be a lil different xD

"Oh Polites isn't really in it-" ...And?? That's okay. You enjoy Jay's character he created who really isn't in the Odyssey as much.

"Odysseus is such a manwhore in the Odyssey-" I am beating you over the head with a fucking rock.

Jay is clearly so fucking passionate and cares about this story so so much (he had a MENELAUS SONG (I grieve it's loss every day ;~; THEY CAN BOTH SIMP FOR THEIR HOT AF WIVES)) He had other characters planned!

But yeah ;~; I get so fucking sad every time someone talks about Epic being better than the Odyssey. Like even JAY wanted to clear that up that "hey, the Odyssey is really cool! I mean I wrote this because I love it so much." and yet... people don't wanna know or even TRY to understand what happens in the actual Epics.

I have hope. I just hope the FANDOM follows through.

[project-sekai-facts]

What is the Tree of Feelings SEKAI?

The Tree of Feelings SEKAI (often called the Tree SEKAI within the fandom, and for the rest of this post) is a mysterious SEKAI that first appears in Miku's Where Feelings Come Together Colorful Festival story, although it reappears in the Sakura Across SEKAI, Interconnecting Our Feelings and Let Your Song Resonate Throughout SEKAI! events.

The SEKAI isn't actually a proper SEKAI, but actually a Fragment SEKAI: it appears in response to shared feelings and will disappear again once those have been resolved. Additionally, it can be accessed through a Fragment of Feelings, the same way you would enter a Fragment SEKAI. Although, some characters are shown to be forcibly teleported there by their phones, something which has never been shown with other Fragment SEKAI so far.

However, whose Fragment SEKAI is this? It first appears in Miku's Colorful Festival story, so it must be hers, right? Well, not exactly.

Miku's Where Feelings Come Together story starts off in Shibuya, with Ichika watching a PV for an upcoming Virtual Singer fan festival (the one she later attends in the Scramble Fan FESTA! event). She considers participating in the festival with Leo/need, and her train of thought runs to Miku in the School SEKAI. Meanwhile, Kohane and Minori are out shopping together, and watch the same PV. Minori comments on how cute Miku is and how she sparkles on stage, thinking of her own Miku. Kohane, on the other hand, says that she likes it when Miku looks really cool, also with her own Miku in mind. At the same time, Kanade is walking home after visiting her dad, and sees the same PV. She's reminded that she wanted to pick up a Virtual Singer CD, and how she never would've been interested in Miku had it not been for the Empty SEKAI.

Between the SEKAI, Miku's base form senses warm and gentle feelings gathering, and starts to realise that something is happening, but doesn't reveal what it is.

In the Wonderland SEKAI, Tsukasa is trying to find Miku, since she promised to help him with rehearsals. He thinks back to his first meeting with the Virtual Singers, and how helpful they ended up being to the point he frequently visits the SEKAI now. After deciding that he should show them his appreciation, a ball of light appears, taking him to a mysterious SEKAI, the Tree SEKAI.

As it turns out, Ichika, Minori, Kohane and Kanade were also teleported to the Tree SEKAI, although in their cases, it was because their phone flashed, similarly to how they (excluding Kanade) were first introduced to the SEKAI during the main story. While they all try to explain to each other how they got there, Miku reveals herself to the others (and confirms that Tsukasa was transported via a Fragment of Feelings).

Miku explains that the Tree SEKAI came to be because of the intertwined feelings of the five. She explains that it isn't quite ready to become a full-fledged SEKAI yet, outright confirming that it is a Fragment SEKAI. She adds that the SEKAI is filled with warmth that has a certain someone in mind, and asks what the five were thinking about before coming to the Tree SEKAI. They realise that they were all thinking about Miku, or their respective Mikus, and in response, Miku beckons them all over to the tree.

In the tree, all of them find items belonging to them. Kanade finds sheet music for her songs, Kohane finds flyers for STAY GOLD and RAD WEEKEND, Tsukasa finds the script for Pegasus Odyssey, the first show he wrote for Wonderlands x Showtime, and Minori finds a promotional photo for MORE MORE JUMP! that she had Kohane take after the group was formed. Ichika then finds the wish plaques that she and the other members of Leo/need wrote at New Years, as well as some of her sheet music and lyrics. Miku concludes that the tree must be a wishing tree of sorts, made from their feelings together, as well as their hopes and dreams.

Ichika then questions how the fact they were all thinking of Miku connects to this tree. Miku explains that they - the Mikus from each SEKAI, and not just this Miku - want the feelings of the people they watch over to keep growing and moving forward. So the Wishing Tree isn't just their tree, it's also Mikus' tree, nurtured by their hopes and dreams for everyone.

Everyone was able to find their true feelings thanks to a Miku, and as a result the tree was able to flourish. Miku thanks the five for placing their trust in "her", but the five agree that they should be the ones thanking her. The SEKAI begins to disappear once they have exchanged thanks, and Miku explains that since this is not a full SEKAI yet, it will return to being a Fragment. However, it won't be gone forever, and one day, when the sapling becomes a fully grown tree, they might be able to...

The five return to where they were before, with no memory of what happened.

We actually learn a lot about the SEKAI from just this card story despite it being its first appearance. We know that despite the fact that there are several SEKAI in existence, this one was born from the shared feelings specifically between the people connected to the School, Stage, Street, Wonderland, and Empty SEKAI, as well as the base form of Miku who exists between SEKAI. Even though the SEKAI is currently only in a Fragment state, it can grow into a full SEKAI from there. Interestingly, it was confirmed in Miku's Street SEKAI 2* that SEKAI grow over time, and this new information heavily suggests that all SEKAI actually can be accessed prior to fully forming via a Fragment of Feeling (for example, the five main SEKAI in the game may possibly have been accessible prior to their full formation, although as far as we know, this didn't happen).

The second time the Treet SEKAI appears is in the Virtual Singer-focused event, Sakura Across SEKAI, Interconnecting Our Feelings. This time, only the first Virtual Singers to appear in each of the five main SEKAI go to the Tree SEKAI though.

In the Empty SEKAI, the N25 members are talking about cherry blossoms with Miku, Rin, MEIKO, and Luka. The group offers to show the cherry blossoms to the Virtual Singers, although it won't be the same as seeing them in person since they will only be able to see them in their hologram forms. Miku then decides to see if there are cherry blossoms in the SEKAI, since Mafuyu's feelings have made other things appear there before. While she doesn't find anything due to the SEKAI being, well, empty, she realises that she's happy that the SEKAI still feels more lively than it did before, and that she wants to continue supporting Mafuyu. As she thinks to herself, a Fragment of Feelings appears, and transports her to the Tree SEKAI.

Meanwhile, in the Stage SEKAI, MORE MORE JUMP! helps the Virtual Singers brainstorm for their next performance. Once a spring theme is chosen, Rin decides that she wants to include falling cherry blossom petals in their concert. Everyone looks across the various stages to try and find a cherry blossom tree, but they don't have any luck. In the end, they opt for using pink lighting, so Rin goes backstage to find some lights. Rin hopes the show will go well after everything everyone has done to accommodate her cherry blossom idea, and happens to find a Fragment of Feelings at that moment.

In the Street SEKAI, MEIKO and Rin have made a new cherry blossom-themed spring menu for Crase Cafe. Vivid BAD SQUAD arrive, and discuss having a picnic under some cherry blossoms in An's neighbourhood, although this makes KAITO and Luka a bit jealous, since there are no cherry blossoms in the SEKAI. Meanwhile, Len wants to find a way to thank MEIKO and Rin for their hard work, so he tries to find a cherry blossom tree for them. He isn't able to find one, but does find a Fragment of Feelings. MEIKO walks out into the street just after he finds it, and it takes them both to the Tree SEKAI.

School SEKAI Luka finds herself already in the Tree SEKAI, and remembers finding a Fragment of Feelings on the school roof. She recalls that Leo/need and the Virtual Singers had been trying to find a cherry blossom tree for a picnic. They had been trying extra hard because cherry blossoms reminded them of Luka as well, and were disappointed that they couldn't find any. Wanting to support Leo/need and their feelings, Luka went to look for a cherry blossom tree herself, and that's how she ended up in the Tree SEKAI.

Finally in the Wonderland SEKAI, WonderlandsxShowtime are trying to create an effect of a cherry blossom petal shower for their next show. They want to use real petals, but there aren't any cherry blossoms in the SEKAI, and they don't want to use the petals from the singing flowers. In the end, Emu suggests taking some petals from the cherry blossom tree in her garden. KAITO is thankful that they're always bringing fun and interesting things over to SEKAI, and thinks of a way to repay them, deciding to look for a real chery blossom in the SEKAI. Whilst looking around, he finds the plushies. They say they have a gift for him, and present him with a Fragment of Feelings, transporting him to the Tree SEKAI.

In the Tree SEKAI, there are cherry blossom petals falling through the sky. Miku goes over to the tree to see if that's where they're coming from, and spots something sparkling on the tree. Rin spots the same sparkly things, identifying them as Minori and the others' feelings, before spotting feelings belonging to other people too. Len and MEIKO also spot that there are other feelings here, with MEIKO making the assumption that they are from other SEKAI. She also has a feeling that where they are isn't an ordinary SEKAI. Luka feels that there are other people in the SEKAI, although she can't see anyone else there. KAITO has the same feeling, but is happy that the tree is proof that everyone's feelings are growing.

Suddenly, there is a very strong wind, and Empty SEKAI Miku briefly sees the original Miku. Empty SEKAI Miku wonders if the original Miku has been watching over everyone's feelings the whole time. The SEKAI then starts to disappear.

The original Miku briefly appears again, commenting on her surprise at everyone being there. She concludes that their individual desires to help brought them all together, and wishes them luck in future.

When Rin returns to the Stage SEKAI, she is greeted by Len and MEIKO. She tells them that she briefly saw other versions of them, and MEIKO realises they must've been from other SEKAI, and adds that nothing like that has ever happened before. In Street SEKAI, MEIKO mentions having been able to see peoples' feelings through Fragments before, but never anything like that, and she wonders if the tree SEKAI is a sort of nexus between SEKAI. In School SEKAI, Luka says the same thing, wondering if that was some sort of special fragment. In the Wonderland SEKAI, KAITO realises that they must have all been brought to the same place because of their connected feelings, and realises that they must all want to help people very much.

This event reveals that the Tree SEKAI is also controlled by the feelings of the Virtual Singers from the five main SEKAI. Despite not being the actual reason they were brought together, they managed to create cherry blossom petals in the SEKAI because they were all looking for cherry blossoms. We also learn that this SEKAI can be accessed by any shared feelings between the five SEKAI. While the five human characters accessed it because they wanted to give thanks to Miku and original Miku wanted to thank them in return, the Virtual Singers accessed it because they all wanted to help the owners/inhabitants of their SEKAI.

The MEIKOs also bring up some interesting points. They say that this has never happened before, which tells us that in the multiple years of SEKAI existing, no group of people has ever had feelings this strong and intertwined. MEIKO's idea of the Tree SEKAI being a nexus, along with Luka wondering if it was a special sort of fragment, makes a lot more sense, and could suggest that the Tree SEKAI, is neither a Fragment SEKAI or a full SEKAI, but a mysterious third type.

Also both Luka and MEIKO mention having seen the feelings of the humans in their SEKAI through Fragments before, despite neither of them having appeared in a Colorful Festival story at this point, implying that there may be other Fragment SEKAI that the human characters never accessed.

The most recent appearance of the Tree SEKAI was in the second Virtual Singer-focused event, Let Your Song Resonate Throughout SEKAI! event. Although this time, things were a little different.

After everything that had happened in the past year, the Virtual Singers want to do something to support and encourage the owners of their respective SEKAI as they move forward in their journeys.

While all of them are discussing ideas and planning shows, the original Miku is watching over them from between SEKAI. She's then joined by the other original Virtual Singers, who were also curious about what's going on in the different SEKAI. Miku wishes she could do more to help the "them" in SEKAI who are trying hard to support the people in their SEKAI.

In the Stage SEKAI, Luka and the others are practising a special performance dedicated to MORE MORE JUMP!. Luka wants to keep trying harder because MMJ has always done the same and she wants to support them. At that moment, a Fragment of Feelings appears in front of her and teleports her away.

Meanwhile, in the Wonderland SEKAI, Miku and the others are rehearsing a play for WonderlandsxShowtime. Miku is so happy that the members of WxS were able to smile and chase their dreams together, that she's brought to tears. It's then that she hears a mysterious voice wish her luck. This voice was actually the original Miku, speaking to Wonderland Miku from between the SEKAI. She isn't sure how she was able to do it, but she wanted to support them all a lot and just said what she wanted to. The other Virtual Singers voice their agreement, and a Fragment of Feelings appears before them.

In the School SEKAI, Len is practising his singing so that he can perform for Leo/need. However, he can't quite get it to sound the same as when Miku sang with L/n at their concert. Miku explains that she wanted to support the girls and give them a push forwards, which Len keeps in mind. After Miku leaves, Len spots a Fragment of Feelings on a chair.

In the Empty SEKAI, Rin is singing Kanade's song to herself. Rin wants to be able to sing the same way as Miku can, the same way Miku was able to sing to Mafuyu and ease her loneliness. Nearby, Miku and Len approach MEIKO, trying to find Rin. MEIKO explains that Rin is focused on something else, and says that they should leave her alone. Once Miku and Len are gone, MEIKO joins in with Rin, although she doesn't think she can sing the same way Rin can. As they sing together, a Fragment of Feelings appears, and transports them to another SEKAI.

Back in the Wonderland SEKAI, Miku talks to KAITO about the voice she heard and the feeling of being watched. KAITO is able to relate to that, and says that it might be the other "them" cheering them on. This gets Miku excited, and she says that she wants to meet the other "them". And as luck may have it, a Fragment of Feelings appears.

This time we're somewhere slightly different though. It's never actually stated if this is the same as the Tree SEKAI or somewhere totally different, although it is a fairly similar landscape.

Wonderland Miku has a look at the fragments floating around, and spots the Wonderland SEKAI in one of them. Excited, she then has a look at the other fragments to see what SEKAI they contain.

The original Virtual Singers find themselves in the same mysterious place. KAITO reckons that the place is made of someone's feelings, and Rin concludes that it's a Fragment SEKAI, although they're not sure exactly what feelings it was made from, or whose SEKAI it is. The group then spots the floating fragments, and realises that this is a SEKAI that connects other SEKAI together. The group splits up to investigate some more, and end up running into "themselves".

The original Rin meets Empty SEKAI Rin, and asks if they can sing together because Empty Rin is such a beautiful singer. The original MEIKO joins Empty MEIKO at the same time, and thanks "herself" for always watching over N25.

Street SEKAI KAITO is here too, and runs into his original self. Street KAITO thinks "himself" is very cool, and admits he isn't really sure what he's doing here, but he's glad that they were able to meet. The original KAITO thanks Street KAITO for always working hard to help Vivid BAD SQUAD.

The Lens meet next. The original Len thinks School SEKAI Len's maturity and musical skills are really cool, and says that they both have to try their best in future. Then it's the Lukas turn. The original Luka thinks it's wonderful that Stage SEKAI Luka is able to bring hope to people as an idol, and says that she was able to give her hope too. Hearing these words, Stage Luka is motivated to try even harder.

Finally, it's the Mikus turn to meet. The original praises Wonderland Miku for her exciting shows that are able to make everyone smile. She believes that as long as Wonderland Miku is by everyone's side, everything will be fine, and she tells her to keep doing her best for them. Wonderland Miku asks to know more about the original Miku, but as soon as she starts to respond, the SEKAI begins to disappear.

This instance of the Tree SEKAI appearing actually leaves us with more questions that answers, and obviously the big question is if this is even the Tree SEKAI.

As mentioned, the appearance is fairly similar. Both SEKAI have a large field, and the sky is identical between the Tree SEKAI illustrations and Rin's Another Version of Me untrained 4* above. Aside from the lack of a tree, which could easily be excused by this possibly being a different part of that Fragment SEKAI, the field is noticeably different. The SEKAI in this event has flowering, bright green fields, while in Sakura Across SEKAI and Miku's Colorful Festival story, the field is a different shade of green and lacks any flowers. The grass is also a bit patchy in those older stories. A last detail that suggests these might be different SEKAI is that Miku doesn't recognise it.

However, I do believe that these are the same SEKAI. Firstly, both SEKAI are a bridge between the five we see in the game. GIven that the Tree SEKAI already exists, it feels very unlikely that another SEKAI serving the exact same purpose would be born, let alone looking extremely similar. As for the differences in appearance? The SEKAI grew of course. As mentioned earlier in this post, Street SEKAI Miku explains very early on in the game that SEKAI grow and develop over time if the feelings that created them don't dwindle. The original Miku alludes to it in her Colorful Festival story as well. I think that that could easily explain why the fields look healthier and are flowering now - because they grew with the feelings of those from the five SEKAI.

And a bit more on the meta side, I want to mention the flowers specifically. Obviously, between the second and third year of the game, this SEKAI went from being an empty field aside from a single tree, to being filled with flowers in it's next appearance. While this is already explained by the theory that it's the same SEKAI growing with time and feelings, I would like to draw attention to the tagline for the third year of the game: Journey to Bloom. All the units made significant changes and developments in order to go further down their respective paths and get closer to their dreams. As a metaphor, they went from being small buds to blooming flowers. I think the same might apply to the Tree SEKAI as a visual metaphor.

So what is the Tree of Feelings SEKAI? Well, it's not entirely clear. Not even the Virtual Singers are entirely sure what it is, because something like it has never existed before. What we do know is that it's a sort of Fragment SEKAI that acts as a nexus between the School, Stage, Street, Wonderland, and Empty SEKAI. When the inhabitants and owners of those SEKAI have the same strong feelings at the same time, they will be transported to the Tree SEKAI and allowed to meet. Virtual Singers are able to retain their memories of being in this SEKAI, although humans cannot.

Currently, the SEKAI is still a Fragment, and can only be accessed for short periods of time. However, it is still growing, and it has been implied that it could one day become a full-fledged SEKAI.

As of posting, Miku never met the original five who unlocked the Tree SEKAI again, although this post will be revisted if any updated are made to the lore of this Fragment? Nexus? SEKAI.

[lizzyscribbles]

In honor of the Vengeance Saga's release tonight, I'm taking a break from my regularly scheduled MHA content to have a little ramble about something Epic related that I've had brewing for a while.

I want to talk about Eurylochus (who, for some reason, my brain desperately wants to call Eurydice, which is an ENTIRELY different greek myth inspired musical that I love but it REFUSES to remember that, but that's besides the point), specifically the hatred he seemed to get after the Thunder Saga.

Now, let me just say, I have not read the Odyssey, I don't plan to and I don't particularly want to. I am solely coming at this from the perspective of someone who has just listened to Epic and kept up with Jay. So, if you have read the myths, this is probably not the post for you. :)

I understand where the hatred of him comes from, I honestly do. At first glance it is kind of hard to understand why he had the right to be upset with Odysseus after everything he did, but I think just taking it at surface value is doing the story a huge disservice.

Let's start allllllll the way back in the Ocean Saga with the wind bag incident. Now, I'm absolutely not saying that Eurylochus should bear no fault for this, he DID disobey Odysseus's direct order and could some of that have to do with the fact that he wanted treasure?? Maybe? But I'm not convinced that was entirely it. That's mentioned at the beginning of the song, and then never really brought up again. (Yes, I am aware that the in the myth it is because of treasure, but again, I'm going off just Epic).

Jay tells us that every character in Epic has an instrument, those in the fandom know this, and we also know that Eurylochus's instrument is actually the crew. So, when he sings, he's usually singing for the combined opinions of the rest of the crew. In "Keep Your Friends Close", we hear Odysseus start to really deteriorate for the first time. You can hear the crew start to get a little weirded out by it, because until this point Odysseus has been pretty steadfast and strong and suddenly he's turned into this paranoid, tired mess. He doesn't talk to anyone after the beginning, he just sings to himself while the crew sings backup. The crew has never seen Odysseus like this before, as far as we can tell, and I think it worries them, especially since this whole bag situation seems to have started it. What I'm trying to get across here is that Odysseus is acting really suspicious in the crew's eyes. We know this because the crew actively tells us this in the line "Everything's changed since Polites." There has been a massive, unsettling change in Odysseus and I think it's deeply concerning them. I think they brought those concerns to Eurylochus, who I think was also being actively shut out, and Eurylochus got worried that there was something much worse than a storm in that bag. If you come from that perspective, it makes sense he waited until Ithaca was so close to try to open it, because with home so close, if there was something horrible then they were close to salvation. Unfortunately, that wasn't the case, and I guarantee Eurylochus tortured himself for that mistake for the rest of his, unfortunately short, life.

Again, I'm NOT saying that this was the right decision, but I am saying that I can kinda see why he did it.

Let's move onto the Circe Saga. I hear a lot about how it wasn't fair that Eurylochus was so mad about the Scylla incident when he wanted to leave the men who became pigs behind on Circe's island. However, think about it this way, Eurylochus didn't actively send those men into Circe's palace, nor did he choose to turn them into pigs to save himself. When they turned, he had no idea whether they COULD be brought back, he probably already considered them dead. He was not the one who condemned them, and I don't think he wanted to leave them behind, but he didn't know if they could be saved and trying to do so may have lost the rest of their feeble crew. Remember, they've just lost nearly their entire fleet, I wouldn't be surprised if Eurylochus was scared he'd lose even more if they tried to save the men that may have already been condemned.

Was this the right decision? No, I don't think so, but I understand why he thought it was.

That's why I think trying to compare the Scylla incident with the Circe one is like looking at apples and oranges, they're really not the same thing.

Next, the cow incident. The infamous "my father will hear about this". I don't have much to say here. It was stupid, yes. However, have y'all ever been so starved you'd do anything to get something to eat? I become a bitch if I wait a few too many hours between meals, going for days, your perception is going to be MASSIVELY screwed. Still, after all, not too surprised that Eurylochus didn't listen to Odysseus. Again, stupid ass move, Eurylochus, but I get it.

Finally, Mutiny, the song that brought this all about. I think a lot of people took this song as Eurylochus being a bit of a hypocrite, that Odysseus isn't allowed to do the things he, himself, did. I don't think that's the case here. I think Eurylochus is confused, because this is COMPLETELY out of character for Odysseus. This entire musical has been Odysseus trying to avoid death in any way he can. He's tried to protect his crew even when it puts himself in danger (see the Circe Saga) and then, seemingly out of nowhere, he sacrifices six men to Scylla without so much as a discussion with his crew. This is very, VERY unlike him at this point, and it scared Eurylochus. It scared all of them.

I don't think he's doing this because he's mad that Odysseus gets to do shit he didn't get to do. No, I think he's terrified because this is a complete 180 and now they're all at risk. He's confused as to why Odysseus is suddenly okay with everything he's told Eurylochus NOT to do up until this point. He's saying, "you told me not to do this, why are you now doing this? The whole time you fought for the crew and now you just killed them no warning, what the hell?? What's happened to you?? This isn't you??" He's not saying that he didn't do anything, he's saying this whole time you've protected us and now you're not, wtf? In simple terms, "you told me not to do something and then you did it"

The prophet said as much, "It's no longer you." This was no longer the Odysseus they knew, and when he willingly sacrificed his crew, they realized that they were no longer people in his eyes, they were tools to get back to his wife and child.

I'm saying this to bash Odysseus AT ALL. In fact, the scariest part of Thunder Bringer is that I fully understand why Odysseus did what he did, and in his shoes, I'm not sure I'd have done anything different. I think Odysseus is an excellent character and I LOVE HIM, we see that these decisions haunt him constantly throughout the rest of the Sagas, but we have to remember we get to hear a lot more about the situation than the crew did. We're inside Odysseus's head, they were not.

Again, was Eurylochus completely in the right? Absolutely not. But he also wasn't completely in the wrong. He was working with the information he had available to him, it just happened to be missing important pieces.

Eurylochus was trying to protect the crew and himself from a man he didn't recognize anymore, and I can't blame him for that.

...Plus, I think we can all agree that the real bitch here is Zeus who made Odysseus choose between himself and his crew and then immediately punted him to Calypso's island FULLY KNOWING that the only reason Odysseus made that decision was because he wanted to see his wife and son.

Screw you, Zeus.

[svquincy]

I'm gonna get so much heat for this.... I wouldn't go so far as to say I'm a Calypso apologist, but I definitely empathize with her on a really deep level. I know the fandom will probably come for my throat because of that, but unless you've been in those shoes, you don't know. Nothing excuses her behavior, but I can absolutely understand it and I really relate to her because of it. No one is perfect, and I'll admit that I've exhibited some of the same behaviors Calypso has (certainly not to the same extent, especially not when it comes to her version in the Odyssey--NOTHING excuses that). Love is fucked and it can really make people insane when it's not reciprocated. It's not something you can control, and when it's directed at the wrong person, those feelings are downright torture. Not everyone can just push the feelings away because it's "the right thing to do". So while Calypso absolutely shouldn't have trapped Odysseus for seven years, I personally wouldn't consider her an ab*ser (the epic version of her, anyway) and I understand why she did it... Now let the culling commence.

[pneumosia]

have you ever wanted to be apart of a loving community built with people who share your interest & love for anime? are you an x reader fanfic writer? an artist? a gfx creator? then you’ve come to the right place. @odysseyofsaia officially opens in 7 days! come support us as we share our countdown until our applications open for the very first time.

this is a collaboration between @azuresaqua, @mitsvriii & i !! those above the age of 13 are eligible. make sure to read our rules in preparation for our applications opening date.

i hope to see you there, odyssey explorer! 🧭

FAQ ( UPDATED 12 / 25 / 24 )

am i eligible if i create smaus as a form of writing? yes, smaus are considered fanfics (as long as its x reader, you can apply.)

how long are applications open for? applications are open from the 1st to 7th of every month, starting from january 1st 2025.

what if i write/draw/create gfxs for multiple fandoms? you would still be eligible to apply, regardless of the number of fandoms you write for as long as at least 1 of them is an anime.

how strict is the application system? every applicant will be screened accordingly by all staff. please make sure to read our rules to make sure you don’t belong in our dni, even if you aren’t—if we see anything unsatisfactory in your blog you will not be accepted.

what are the basic requirements before applying? follow the official @odysseyofsaia blog and reblog the debut post (not yet) linked in the pinned. then you read the eligibility and dni post to make sure your chances of getting in are stable.

[wizardofsleep]

Second listen through of the Vengeance saga and here are my thoughts

Pre thoughts (only livestream): kinda underwhelming tbh! I did like NSFLY more than i thought I would and Dangerous was amazing as expected but the other songs didn’t match up to my expectations. I get the whole anime angle for 600 strike but it feels… too much? I think the individual character decisions made sense but it didn’t feel cohesive to the entire narrative.

Thoughts after a relisten: definitely feel better about the whole album, I think giving it a fair chance without the expectations I had made me like it more. NSFLY has absolutely gorgeous vocals and music. I see people saying this song justifies calypso (and that’s not ok because her behaviour was still wrong) and I really disagree? It’s just showing her POV and I think it’s still possible to empathise with her while also very much seeing how the things she did were unacceptable regardless. It’s a really nice song and Wangui’s vocals are *chef’s kiss*

Dangerous is probably my favourite song on the saga. No notes I love Hermes I love the vibes I love the subtle emotion behind everything.

Charybdis grew on me immensely, I didn’t like it as much on the first listen but it’s really nice actually and the tone shift at the end is probably my favourite part.

Get in the Water! I will say this song probably disappointed me the most on the first listen because I had high expectations but honestly? It’s a bop. I think the first part of it until “ruthlessness is/mercy upon/ourselves” is fucking incredible. It’s exactly the perfect amount of tension and terror that I wanted. The part after that feels like it could be a different song?? Like it feels like the tension breaks. It’s not even bad, I just feel like that part would have been better at the start of 600 strike than where it was. I like how the open arms reprise was ‘you can relax my friend’ but tbh I don’t understand why we had an open arms/Eury/mom reprise when a Penelope/Telemachus reprise fits better thematically. It still sounds really good though.

600 strike: probably the only song in the entire musical that I dislike. I’m someone who tends to focus more on story/lyrics than music, and while the music and vocals were probably my favourite in this saga, the story just fell flat for me. I’m not gonna talk about how it’s not an accurate adaptation, because I don’t think that matters (not to go too deep into that but tbh i don’t think it needs to be an exact recreation of the odyssey, like I think it’s fine that we deviate and epic is its own thing like that’s not my gripe with it). I know the popular fandom consensus is that it’s badass and this may be an unpopular opinion but I don’t… really want… to hear someone get tortured? It feels gratuitous. I feel like if the intention was to make the audience uncomfortable they definitely succeeded. I think 600 strike is a tragedy- it really is no longer him, as Poseidon said- he’s truly a monster now. Look at what he’s had to become. He’s truly lost a part of himself to get home and I think that’s sad. Last line was a great mic drop though lol.

It’s hard for me to totally encapsulate my feelings. Endings are always difficult in a story and while it missed the mark for me I don’t think that makes it a bad album. If I’m being honest, the music and vocals were really nice- but considering that the lyrics and story are more important to me, I hope you can see why it doesn’t hit as hard for me.

I think the album will grow on me so I’m excited to listen to it.

[striveattemptfail]

2024 fic roundup

i was not tagged but i stole this from @gossippool who kept open tags lol. originally created by @cheeseplants~!

for stats, i'm only answering for the fics i posted on ao3 this year (ie: i'm not including wips or random pieces i posted on tumblr, mainly for clarity)

alrighty, let's go!! /o/

—————

What fandoms do you write in?

mainly deadpool and wolverine + one (1) yuri on ice lol

How many words have you published in 2024?

20,488

an insane amount bc i haven't posted to ao3 since jan 2023

and even then i only started posting again in sept 2024

absolutely wild imo

What is your greatest achievement this year?

to reiterate the above ^^^ point: writing and posting at all

What are your favourite top three fics you wrote this year?

(listed in order of personal preference)

1) You'll be there to push me up the hill • poolverine • 5.4k • Five times Logan finds out something new about Wade's friendships, and one time Wade finds out something new about his relationship with Logan. —— this is my fave fic i've written this year bc it's 100000% self-indulgent and i regret nothing aside from wishing i had it beta'd before i posted lol

2) Feel your way • poolverine • 2.7k • aka: Yet another Honda Odyssey fic lol. —— i still can't believe i wrote and posted smut for the first time in years—and it's not half bad! i feel like a lot of my smut isn't actually as hot as i want it to be 😅😑

3) tanoshii omoide • victuuri • 600+ • In interviews, and generally in public, Yuuri always says his happiest memory is landing his triple axel for the first time. —— i also can't believe this is the first victuuri fic i've ever posted publicly. yoi is the reason why i'm a weeb and i still very deeply adore this anime. perhaps one day i'll share the rest of my victuuri brainworms but who knows! certainly not me ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

What have you learned?

mainly that i missed writing

i've been stagnant creatively for a long time and completely forgot how much i actually like writing

(no jinx, oh my lord)

What fic did you want to do but never made it off the ground?

omg

so many

i have dozens of wip documents of varying lengths, and even more notes of fic ideas ranging in detail from a single bullet point to "why the hell haven't i just turned this into proper sentences yet bc it's practically written!!!"

one in particular that i think about a lot is a poolverine/cabledom + x-force miscommunication leads to getting together fic

alas, i have not the knowledge nor skill to give this the attention and care it deserves 😩😔

Did you beta any fics?

ye!!

i beta'd this messed up but brilliant bleach fic by @comatose--overdose (tw: rape and deception—tread carefully!)

so fucked up, 10/10, would recommend if you want something messy and hot lol

What ideas are percolating for next year?

once again: so many lol

here's a few off the top of my head: aforementioned poolverine/cabledom miscommunication, professor/student poolverine au, poolverine mind-meld, animalistic!logan poolverine fluff, vanessa clocking that poolverine absolutely fucked on the DL, symbrock missing scenes fic that i didn't finish on time for the premiere of venom: the last dance, continuing my darndest things series, this one jayroy + lian action fic that just will not leave me tf alone........

i can keep going bc i have so many ideas 😅🙃

will i actually get to any of them next year? at this point you can toss a coin in a wishing well and get the same results bc i truly do not know ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Who do you want to thank?

big, mega, overly-excited shout out to @comatose--overdose and @broosepayne for beta-ing and idea throwing all goddamn year with me ❤️❤️❤️

i am tackling each of you to the ground and crushing you with my my arms Ɛ=Ɛ=Ɛ=(づ￣ ³￣)づ

tagging: if you have the letters S, A, and/or F in your url, consider yourself officially tagged! (-ω-)ゝ

[leynaeithnea]

Introduction:

Hehylo, I'm Leyna or Ley

-> she/her, sometimes they

-> I can legally drink in the US (I won’t, I'm boring, I don't rly drink, smoke, i don't even drink coffee or energy drinks, I'm boring, I’m also not from that continent)

-> probably bi, idek not straight probably

-> trying to be a functional member of society but not doing great with that yet, keep questioning my life choices every few weeks

-> my blog is probably not family friendly

-> I'm mostly active on discord, you can add me under @ leynadeyemi ....but I tend to ignore unknown requests so maybe lmk on here first

Tags:

#LeyAnswers (ask replies)

#LeyWonders (asking questions to myself or others)

#LeysDoodles (stuff I draw or doodle)

#LeyRambles (ranting about stuff, probably trying to make a point)

#LeyWrites (anything related to my writing projects)

-> fandom tags

-> might add more tags i.e. for reblogs or stuff like that eventually

-> the writing projects get their own tags too

Content:

I'm a writer....well, I’m working on it, I'm neither good at writing nor storytelling, worldbuilding or character creation, but writing is the only thing that when I do it I don‘t feel like I’m secretly wasting my time, so imma keep doing it

Occasionally I draw and slowly getting a tiny bit better at that, mostly practicing digital, sometimes on paper, I also like playing around with all other stuff of digital arts: animation, trying to get into music again, editing,….long list, but mostly writing probably

Main writing projects:

Stolen Kingdom (working title) (#DayNightDusk): fantasy - trilology - no day-night cycle, political conflicts, no magic, mc wants to go home, enemies to lover's - worldbuilding, planning, plotting, character creation [-> still new and fully up to change]

Minto Wild (#MintoWild): epic/portal fantasy (probably?) - series - nine worlds, wild magic, the gods are gone, mc can manipulate and feel fear – worldbuilding, planning

Changeling King (#ChangelingKing): fantasy, folklore - novel (probably, duology maybe) - changelings, curses, withering world, otherworld, fairies – worldbuilding, planning

Starless - Starlit - Starborn (#Astaranay): gaslamp fantasy, galaxy core - series/triology - scholarship, constellations, stolen magic – worldbuilding

Rustle of Wings (#RustleOfWings): gaslamp fantasy, folklore - short story - moth, death omen, apothecary, fairies – editing

Shadows of Truth (#CakeMelonSword/ ShadowsOfTruth): lgbt fantasy romance - co-written novel (with two friends) - gods, fey, angels, truth and lies – plotting

(More that arent more than a single line or idea)

Hobbies/Interests, that I might mention or rant about:

Editing, history, mythology, folklore, fairies, writing, english, linguistics, culture, storytelling, witchy stuff, gardening/foraging, psychology, sociology, science like astronomoy (kinda, not the maths and physics behind it) probably more stuff

Fandoms I might reblog or mention/reference more frequently:

Epic the Musical

The Odyssey

Captive Prince Series

All for the Game series

The Silmarillion

Additionally:

-> reading mostly fantasy and lgbt, sometimes non fiction…mostly for research, sometimes for the brain

-> whatever I'm currently watching

-> i don't play a lot of games (mostly genshin and assassins creed syndicate) nor am I rly involved into any game fandoms, want to explore more games in the future though

Friend shenenigans with:

@underexasperation

@rudegizmo

@diovoppio

(Might start tagging interactions with #mydearestfriends)

#mutuals for interactions with other friends :>

Oh, i also tested out what these new communities were and made one for my stories, but considering I've only have two somewhat acceptable short-stories and an actually good co-written one, I don't think that's gonna be relevant anytime soon 😬 Unless you want me to ramble about my WIPs, in which case I wont refuse

[katerinaaqu]

Hi! I’m the anon who asked about Odysseus’ character changes and how you deal with them. Tysm for such a detailed and knowledgeable answer!

I’ve got another question if that’s alright. I’ve fallen in love with the complex and flawed but ultimately good Odysseus I read about in the Iliad and Odyssey. But when I started reading the other myths I kinda hated him lol (the myths themselves were good but Odysseus was…morally grey at best). I’m not one for liking villain-coded characters, complex or not. So I guess what I want to ask is would it be offensive to anyone if I decided to ignore certain myths and accept as “canon” per-say others? I know these myths are part of Greek culture and history so I just want to ensure I’m being respectful in my enjoyment of the characters

Thanks

My oh my thank you very much! Of course it is alright! I always love questions or comments to my fics and all. That is why I am here hehe.

Why would it be "offensive"? Honestly the only thing I would consider "offensive" is someone who uses the modern day adaptations to form "fandoms" about the Greek gods or myths as if the modern day is somehow "correcting" them or something apart from that as you can see from my previous answer I also do that when I write my stories.

Like I said before I should link the "anti-Odysseus wave" to the different wars or challenges faced during the time which called for war propaganda (or antiwar for that matter) so the idea of a guy using indirect methods didn't agree with the spirit of "noble war". Which was further enriched by popularity of guys like Eurypedes (pretty much like the overhype of things like Epic the Musical or Percy Jackson in modern day)

Some popular creators didn't particularly favor Odysseus methods, made him their anti-hero, got popular and so many other creators followed tye same spirit while Romans blasted it out of proportion due to their own propaganda against the guy that took their mythical city. Quite frankly even the ancient Greeks made choices among the versions they favored.

For example there is no doubt for most myths that Helen was at Troy. Homer says she willingly followed blinded by love to which later on Helen justifies that Aphrodite blinded her with passion so that Paris could have his new wife. Other accounts say she was abducted. Either way Helen herself was at Troy, no doubt about it. But Eurypedes wanted to justify Helen even further thus creating his play "Helen" to which Helen was never there, but her copy and that Helen was suffering from the unjust anger of the world plus the advances of the king of Egypt.

Even the ancient Greeks had "favorite versions" of the myth. I see no reason why not you too make the selection of your favorite versions and stick to them. I do too.

For instance the only other creator of antiquity so far that gives me somehow the same vibes (not as complete of course) as Homer is Sophocles. Many people pick their favorite material of mythology to enjoy. Quite frankly most homeric fans ignore for example Telegony and that is for obvious reasons. I am one or them. Telegony is not a continuation of Odyssey but rather a different tale that takes the Odyssey as a starting point. 😉

I hope that helps. Personally I get tired of people who only hear one version and claim it as the only truth (see for example Ovid and Medussa) but I just called that "ignorance" rather than "offensive" but I cannot see why someone would be ashamed that after a thorough research of the ancient sources they just settle more with those that resonate with them better.

I hope that makes sense.

[dootznbootz]

Literally just found out about you today and I'm already follow in you. As fellow tele-GONE-y hater, I absolutely stan with all the hate we have for that stupid fan fiction. Circe used to be one of my favorite books, I still think the writing is good. But when you look at the original source material? Yikes- I don't get why Miller chose CIRCE out of everyone. If she wanted to write a feministic story that's fine. But why chose a female character whom you have to make better and corrupt all the other characters in the source material so that Circe is more sympathetic? Why couldn't she write a TRUE feministic story about some other character?? I personally would've loved a story about Nausikaa. Which would make more sense considering she is a character who is often forgotten in most retellings of the Odyssey.

Circe isn't a sympathetic character, she was never supposed to be one. To make her sympathetic is to make everyone around her terrible. I'm so angry when people use this book for insight on Circe character because it is so different to actual Circe.

I'm also so very salty about what she did to my boy Hermes because what.

Thank you so much!!! Sorry this took a while to answer! Thankfully most folks are not a fan of the Tele-GONE-y either :'D it's mostly the "well, actually" folks who talk about it. >:(

"If she wanted to write a feministic story that's fine. But why choose a female character whom you have to make better and corrupt all the other characters in the source material so that Circe is more sympathetic?"

This right here, is exactly how I feel with so many of these "feminist retellings". Feminism is about lifting each other up. If you have to make everybody else "worse" to make your main character better, then...that's just not good storytelling.

This goes along with the whole "all men are bad no matter what" that happens all the time and I hate it so much. Even if the system may be sexist, that does not mean that every single male agrees with it.

You put everything into words well but I like to ramble so Ima say shit too but it's basically the same thing lol

With the whole "every horrible thing Circe has done is done fo a reason. she's defending herself, she was wronged, men are so evil uwu" is just fucking lazy and SUCKS. >:( LET WOMEN BE FLAWED, COWARDS!

I actually really love Odyssey Circe as a character. She's morally gray and does whatever she wants as a goddess. Yes, she terrifies Odysseus but she's COMPLEX. Why does she need a reason to turn men into pigs? Why can't she just do it "for funsies"?

I think it takes away from her as a goddess to always have a reason for her to do the things she does, you know? Immortals are fickle and don't have the same morals as mortals. I think Miller changed so much as "to have a morally gray protagonist?? No, that's wrong!" which BORING!!!!!!!

I fucking love Penelope. But I still have her a lil mean and even a bit snooty sometimes as her and Odysseus are like-minded. Hubris would be her downfall as well. She is petty and holds grudges like no other. because she's a PERSON. Not "bland empowerment in a can for everyone to consume". Ofc, she has her wonderful qualities like her intelligence, devotion, determination, and yes, she does have her kind moments (she goes 0 to 100% real quick. She takes the "Do no harm, Take no shit" phrase to the extremes. lol)

But honestly? I think there's a real problem in writing in many YA books and especially in fandom where people treat female characters as goddesses (which yes, understandable) but then they can't...make her human you know? Almost like they cannot see any of the woman's flaws or even WANT her to have flaws because "woman doing a bad thing that isn't done 'cutely' ("endearingly clumsy", "quirky chatterbox", etc. traits that are usually not the greatest are "cute" now simply because she's a woman. Maybe a love interest sees her that way but those traits would probably be considered annoying to many others.) regardless is antifeminist"

And even then, so many things that I want to write about are what many would consider feminist when...She's just existing. And I'm getting silly with it. Penelope is athletic and a naiad (75% but you know. with her parentage) but I don't write her that way TO make it feminist. I'm not doing it for that. I just like tiny but mighty wife ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

I don't plan to write other women as "lesser" for not being athletic for example. Anticlea doesn't understand why Penelope likes doing that stuff but she's still supportive and they enjoy weaving together. I am NEVER putting down another female character for not being "girlboss" enough.

I really hate that this book has made people constantly bring up the Tele-GONE-y AND Shittalking all of them. I don't like looking at retellings and seeing "a new feminist take". Usually goes against the entire story to begin with. Often portraying good male characters in the original as "bad and horrible".

Also no hate to those that enjoy Circe the Book, but to me, it sounds like trauma porn. adding rapes that were never there, making the victim of the situation the PERPATRATOR because, clearly, a man cannot be a victim. I heard about her hating being a mom despite her literally having servants and she's a GODDESS in the Odyssey. She could literally have a nanny/nurse if she wanted.

Fun fact: I was watching a video essay about villainesses and how to write them well and as soon as it started to talk about historical villainesses and how Circe was a "femme fatale", I exited the video. She's an "antagonist", she lets them stay there but she's still...Not GOOD. To be a femme fatale means to usually seduce. She does not seduce Odysseus. He was literally commanded to by Hermes and her.

[rodolfoparras]

What's your opinion on price with a dad-bod?

- walkie talkie anon

An essay by Alec

 The subject of dad bodies, specially Price with a dad bod has become a rather popular as well as a rather controversial topic within the cod fandom. One side of the debate claims that duo to his position in the army and the strenuous labor his body is put through on daily bases, the physic of that of a dad bod is an unattainable physics. The other side of this debate favors Price with a dad bod; however when applied in practice, the basic elements in what makes a dad bod are rarely found. So what is a dad bod and is such physique achievable for someone in Price’s position?

The term "dadbod" refers to a physique that is neither lean nor shredded but instead consists of a nice balance between having a beer gut and some muscle tone on the body (Clemson Odyssey, 2015). The phenomenon garnered huge interest many years ago and is widely applied to many different instances today.

The term “dadbod” was firstly used for Price by Twitter user 🐙 (xxxxx, 2023) in which they request to see dadbod price. Ever since then there’s been a fast growing interest to see the call of duty character in what’s described as a dad body.

Price, also known as captain John price is a playable character in the popular game known as call of duty, specially call of duty modern warfare 2019. The character is presented as the captain of his team known as 141.

According to Goarmy (2019) there’s a physical fitness requirement to maintain a position in the army that goes beyond the standards on what it means to be fit in today’s society. To just maintain his position in the army, he’d have to be fit enough to pass The Army Combat Fitness Test (ACFT) that evaluates your physical and mental abilities every year. According to Goarmy (2019) you take the ACFT several times a year and have your scores recorded twice a year as an active duty Soldier in the Army,

However as mentioned earlier there’s a big part of the call of duty fandom (me) that claim that Price can still maintain a dadbod despite the physical requirements.This argument is based on the notion that soldiers are asked to take the test while on active duty, implying that there is a gap of time where Price could possible obtain a dadbod physique. According to Militery One Source soldiers may request leave at any time. Currently, Soldiers can bank up to 60 days of leave at the end of the fiscal year. If he chooses to uses all his 60 days of leave at the very end of the year then he can very well do so.

A span of 60 days could ensure so much as 6.8kg weight gain. Further Piedmon writes in their article that with little physical activity, muscle cells are bound to shrink and with less calorie burn, fat cells will start to expand, making the body look softer. In her article “Exercise Break: How Long Does It Take to Lose Muscle Mass?”Ross-Hazel (2018) writes that how quickly you lose muscle mass depends on several factors, including your pre-break fitness level.Athletes can start to lose their muscle strength in about three weeks if they’re not working out, according to a 2013 study.

According to user Serebro on Quora (2017) a soldier is also granted many types of leaves (ie death of a family, serious family issues, etc) as long as it can be justified as a legitimate reason for leave. Considering the amount of nonsensical things this character is put through to further developed the story, it is not far fetched that Price may be granted several types of leaves during a short period of time and thus bound to lose muscle mass, gain weight and appear softer in his appearance.

An example of this can be seen in Figure 1, 2, and 3

In conclusion, it is very much possible for captain Price to obtain a dadbod physic despite his roll in the army.