#but yzy should not have had kids with ANYONE.

[lgbtlunaverse]

If yu ziyuan had been a character in a different story set when she was younger I'd be on here making posts about her like "she would NOT fucking have kids" because genuinely the worst thing you could do to that woman was make her a mother. Except in the story she's in she is a mother. And that's what's wrong with her.

[achillesuwu]

Bringing back that thing I wrote like, 2 years ago in a forgotten small thread "fic" because I want to :

What if

What if

Instead of the "one person transmigrate in an AU" /every/ cultivators of the main sects (post sun-shot they think wwx is dead) get transmigrated in a world were YLLZ is very much alive and a powerful sect leader that's ~400 years old or something.

Like at first most don't see anything wrong, I mean, why would they?

Except that there is some weird thing. Some reports that don't make any sens. Some people that aren't simply there. Some scars that suddenly totally healed.

But above all, some people that shouldn't be alive are very much alive and confuse

However, none of them could be as confuse as the servants that work in those sect.

What do you mean you don't remember me? I work here since I'm 6 and I have been your personal servant for forty years !?????

What do you mean you never heard of that sect!? They are your allies!🙄

But most of all : how the heck did you forget about the YLLZ!?!? THE YLLZ? It doesn't matter. HE GOING TO COME AT THE ANNUAL CONFERENCE MASTER YOU BETTER GET YOUR ACT TOGETHER, BE CAREFUL AND /NOT/ CALL HIM WEN DOG!

Every servants at the moment : Those rich cultivators 🙄🙄 They are down right suicidale on a regular basis and now they are amnesiac! Great!! Fuck my life!!!!!

Anyway, cut scene to this annual conference where everyone is very awkward.

Everyone thinks that they are the only one that transmigrated or that only their clan did

The Jin are very much angry because all their job to kick yllz out of the living had gone to waste AND they aren't the biggest sect anymore.

Meanwhile, the Jiang are really awkward because JFM and YZY don't really understand why their kid are so weird??? (they didn't transmigrated but JYL did because I say so and same for her not-yet-husband (which weirded out even more the servant when the sect heir ran crying towards the ex he hates)

The lan are... Weirder than usual.... it's well know that the sect leader is very gloomy since his ex-wife left him for a YillingWei female disciple (not even a high ranked one but she is still under the YLLZ protection so...) & that he doesn't have a good relationship with his sons but still. It wasn't like... that.

LQR is looking like he is 10 years older and ready to kill anyone that talk about demonic cultivation. (don't ask why to any servant there, they don't know! He literally taught about it last months without any issue!!). He doesn't even look at the sect leader in the eyes either!

The first jade isn't looking at the second jade and they seems distant (!?) and he is completely ignoring the sect leader. Meanwhile the second jade doesn't seem to be able to sit still (!?!?). The more their second young master looks at the door the angrier the second master and his eldest nephew seem to be.

Truly, truly from every corner it's just awkward from everywhere. The servant truly don't understand 😩 that conference is THE event of the year!!!

The event that everyone expect, that everyone prepared carefully from the clothing of the lowest servant to the rings on the finger of the leader everything is carefully chosen to impress the Yilling loazu!! Nothing should be awkward like that, everyone should be thrilled!

They should be ready to make new alliance and secure their trade! Not doing... Whatever they are doing!!!

The servants can only wait and hope that YLLZ will not mind it 😩 it's already so difficult to make him come to this conference once every 5 years!!!! Some of us are aiming to get a demonic scholarship, venerable (dumbass) cultivators !!!!

[nikinramblings]

Jiang Cheng is a good character.

YES, I want to open that can of worms.

I only say good but I mean a lot of different things. Good as in well written. But also as in he's not a bad person. He has many flaws, some venial, some major, he made mistakes as most in the story. He suffered just as much, even though part of it was caused by his own personality.

I'm pretty sure most people would agree but I also know there are less forgivable ones out there.

I know it's not straightforward because he's ill tempered and seeing the story from Wei Wuxian's pov it's hard to sympathise with someone who envied him so much when WWX has done nothing but love and respect him and his family his whole life. But come on.

His father did favor WWX over him, I think this point is quite pacific. I stand by the fact that JFM loved JC but the way he went about it was all wrong. If he had treated them equally then a lot of aggravation would have been spared. JC was at fault in taking it out on WWX, since he wasn't responsible for it but he was young and misguided and there it was WWX acting arrogant by his own (later) admission, which of course didn't help, no matter that he cared deeply.

His mother did nothing to smooth the edge of his character, instead she nourished his insecurities, constantly comparing him to WWX, underlying every little difference in their status, actions, results and treatments. It caused him to develop an inferiority complex that made him all the more bitter.

He's not as strongwilled and tough as some of the other characters and that's not a fault, he just has a more vulnerable personality he tries to compensate by acting rough. It's very apparent in how remissive he is around his mother who in contrast - while similar in temperament - has a very strong will. As a lonely kid, prior to WWX's arrival, his character has been easily molded by the people close to him, especially the ones he felt loved by. He grew prickly under the indifference of his father, the harsh ways of his assertive mother and the indulgence of his sister who while gentler is much tougher than him.

And then he watched his whole family being killed as a consequence of WWX's actions. It would have happened anyway, YZY understood that before anyone else, but still... Even though he was in the wrong blaming it on WWX, the Wen sect used that pretext to launch an attack that caught them off-guard. He watched all the people he loved die as WWX stood by someone else's side, never listening to his advice.

And I agree his temperament is not a justification, he should work on that, but I also know how difficult it is to change one own nature. He was easily riled up, he was too easy to condition and his envy and sense of inadequacy made him blind to the truth, but I think the way WWX was always able to win him back in a few words shows that he was trying, he was listening, he knew that was not the right way to go. And he cared about him too.

But I also want to notice that he was not just prickly, he was also right many times. He's pretty selfish, we can agree on that. It's not that he has no compassion for others but being it his pride, his sense of entitlement, his fear or whatever, he's not as selfless as WWX, ready to give everything up for someone he's not deeply connected to (which heightens the sacrifice he made giving himself up to save him). His indifference toward the faith of the two people who saved his life is quite unbearable, I have to be honest, but as explained in the story he has close to no memory of it and it lessens his sense of debt - not an excuse but I guess it makes sense. That being said, he goes about it the wrong way but what he tells WWX is right, he will never succeed in his intention, it would only bring destruction and I'm pretty sure he was not just thinking of himself, how he would be implicated, he cared for WWX, not for anyone else involved but for him. He was trying to save him.

Even though he never referred to him as his brother, like JYL did, he did love him like he was, he was just difficult, he wanted him by his side and tried to help him multiple times, if uncouthly, that's why he felt so betrayed when he chose to stand by Wen Ning and the others. I think his reaction after the golden core reveal is quite telling of his internal struggle.

When he found out he owed his life and his status to WWX he received one of the biggest blow of his life because he was finally set on hating him, resolving his lifelong internal conflict but deep down he knew that he couldn't ignore his sacrifice. For his whole life he had wavered in that limbo between love and hate, never able to fully commit to either side. He never truly hated him. Not until Jiang Yanli's death and not after he came back, maybe not even in between but that's his lowest point for sure. But now he had a debt of gratitude that he didn't want, because it clashed with his justified anger, because he didn't want to be linked to WWX again, because he didn't want to forgive him and feel like he was in the wrong yet again; not after what he had lost.

He was suddenly in debt without asking for it. It was like his grief and anger didn't withstand the good he had never known about, but he still felt them and there was a reason for them that he couldn't ignore, which made him look unsympathetic, once again his own efforts, sacrifices, losses... didn't seem to matter. And that was also because he had another unforgivable flaw, he was prideful, that meant he wasn't deemed able to confront the truth, which is belittling in itself.

First there is the envy, the pride. Then the grief, the inadequacy, the frustration. Ultimately there is another important bit, being kept in the dark. WWX had no right to take that decision for him, to be a martyr when he was supposed to be the executioner (from his point of view). He had no right to give up so much as if it was nothing when for JC it was everything. Most importantly he should have told him so he could have understood why he did what he did, because if he knew maybe Jiang Cheng would have done things differently too, he could have helped him. Every time WWX rejected his advice it wasn't because he didn't want to listen but because he couldn't listen, that would have lessened the resentment in JC. At that moment of their life him and JYL were all he had left and once again he fell second to someone else. Even worse he was abandoned by someone who promised to always be on his side, to help him in a difficult time, but not only WWX wasn't there and was protecting others, he was rejecting the hand Jiang Cheng tried to offer him.

In this respect, I find quite poetic the scene in the donghua with Jiang Cheng reaching out to help him up during the Waterborne Abyss incident and Wei Wuxian plummeting down under the weight of his own actions (and LWJ coming to the rescue, obv), because it's a very accurate representation of the future events. He did it badly but he did try to help. He did try to make him see reason. He missed some crucial details and lacked sympathy but he made a lot of wise remark. He didn't have WWX's confidence (edging on haughtiness) and since he had always been sensitive to the opinions of the people around him he could foresee consequences better than him. He was also painfully aware that he wouldn't always be able to face them because he could barely stand up for himself in many instances against those more domineering than him.

Whether he was really full of hate after WWX's death or in a way he was hoping he would come back I don't know, JGY could have been right, he kept Chenqing because he thought WWX would come for it - to catch him? It could be, the fact JGY said it almost leads me to believe the contrary because we know he's deceitful and always looks for the worse angle to any matter, but it could be true. To meet him again? Who knows - or he kept it to remember him. I don't think it's all that important. Because after he came back he was angry and they couldn't go back to how they were before but things smoothed over. He let him keep Chenqing, knowing that's his source of power now. In his words, as I've said before, we can see he understood better what happened and why. He finally managed to vent his anger at him to the point of turning it into something else as he moved to another stage of grief. The fact that Jin Ling keeps interacting with him after everything is said and done is quite telling of how quiet the aftershock is, not that I think Jiang Cheng could stop him but he wouldn't make it easy if he still hated him.

And then there is the biggest thing of all. Him not telling WWX how he was captured after the massacre of their sect is the most mature thing he has ever done. It wouldn't have eased anything, it would have only served the purpose of hurting WWX further. If he really hated him he would have told him, just as he vented his frustration at not having any recognition for his effort when WWX and LWJ were trapped in the cave. But he didn't want to hurt him even more when he knew he had suffered enough. It would have been a very spiteful thing to do, proving he needed people's approval and nothing else. Instead he accepted to be considered selfish and ungrateful even in his most selfless moment. The comparison with his inability to tell him the true story with the way WWX kept his action from him is a dead giveaway to the true reason he couldn't find it in himself to speak: for the first time after that instance he learned to be selfless again.

[thecolorsofwater]

Kind of incoherent

But I'm wondering whether there's something to be said about the danger of trying to force a family on people in the show/novel. Trying to put the jiang family in context - yzy vs jfm and the kids on who is family and I think I'm going to end up on all of the families.

I think the easiest way to start is wen yuan, maybe.

I run into a lot of 'wwx isn't really a-yuan's parent' discourse, and I absolutely think this is valid in that wwx does none of the 'parenty' bits of 'taking care of child, providing for them, being stable so child can explore the world', but I also want to think about that without invalidating the way that wwx is part of his larger, communal, family. He's been accepted by the surviving Wen elders for 2 generations and given a sort of claim to kinship. And the important thing is that while we as a fandom often tend to use this to invalidate WY's original family, wwx doesn't need to in order to say 'this is family'.

and sort of comparing that to lwj, who does need to invalidate - or at least to hide - wy's family, to claim him as lsz instead of wy. And how that could be a terrible thing and a rejection of wy's identity, especially since the whole - IDEK what MXTX does with her weird memory issues with everyone - and that the reason it's not is that all parts of this new, cobbled-together family want to be together and are willing to make whatever compromises are needed to make it work.

Which, of course, is why the Lan family as a whole works

Because even if lwj and lxc have bad parents, everyone they regularly interact with in the Lan clan seems to be willing to work with them, to get things done, and to do their best for them as a family. It could be argued it’s actually the absence of their toxic parents which makes the family seem as united as it is, and we can argue till the cows come home about if the Lan (and especially LQR) are overly restrictive, but no one seems to argue that lqr doesn’t love and want his nephews – not just around but in his family. Or that lxc and lwj don’t want both each other and their uncle – and the rest of their sect, including, eventually, wy/lsz.

Which of course is why I needed to go back to wen yuan before I could address the truly fucked up Jiang family

Because where this started was my thinking about yzy and her refusal to accept wwx into her family. And the way that no one in that family seems to know where they do - or where they want to - stand in relation to the family as a whole.

It's - the thing is that it isn't just a 'jfm wants to adopt wwx and his wife says no'. Because it's honestly not clear to me that jfm does want to adopt him. He wants him around as a reminder of wwx' birth family, and he wants to spoil him, but (speaking without doing the research to be sure if this is on point) I'm not actually sure he wants to be wwx's parent. More importantly, I'm not convinced jfm wants to be anyone's parent.

So we end up with a family where:

Yzy definitely wants jyl and jwy/jc (toxic as she can be about it) as her family. Arguments can be made about whether she wants jfm or just wants him to stop fucking up and would be happy if he did that by vanishing, but she def. doesn’t want wwx in her family.

Jfm arguably might not want any of yzy, jyl, or jc – though we absolutely see some evidence that he’s trying to at least fulfill social pressures to be head of household and father. Definitely does want wwx, but maybe not as family. And you know, I don’t think he’s talked about this to his wife at all because she also doesn’t seem sure whether wwx is supposed to be her adopted kid who she’s trying to reject or an uppity servant who she’s trying to put in his place.

Jyl wants both wwx and jc as her brothers. Uncertain if she wants her parents or if she’d go non-contact if she had the option.

Jc wants everyone and wants them all to love each other, but is super confused about how that should/could work out, especially with wwx. I would honestly be both shocked and disbelieving if someone said jc had any sort of coherent idea of how his dream family was supposed to look beyond ‘nice to each other’ and ‘sometimes evidence of affection, maybe’?

Wwx is almost as confused as jc. He pretty clearly loves jc and jyl, but also … doesn’t call them siblings. Doesn’t seem sure what to make of jyl calling them siblings. Social structure absolutely makes this even more complicated as wwx is left going ‘they’re both inferior to me bc I’m the most awesome cultivator and thus I need to protect them and they’re my social superiors’. And that’s before we add yzy and jfm.

Unlike wy, wwx is super attached to his birth parents – or at least, the idea of them and his memories of them. He wouldn’t want to be a Jiang, because he’s a Wei. How much of that is self-protection in response to yzy, idk, but even if yzy had a change of heart during the Cloud Recesses arc when we first meet wwx and went ‘let’s adopt this’ I think he’d say no. And with the way he calls jfm ‘uncle’ – I think I remember this anyway – I don’t know that he wants to be jfm’s kid either. Even if he hadn’t seen how jfm treats his actual kids.

this in relation to my guilty reddit aita pleasure and the number of truly awful 'my family member is forcing this person into my family' stories and much as I love the Yunmeng Trio as 3 Jiang sibs … I don’t think there’s a way for the family to work, and I don’t think it’s just yzy who is the reason.

(trying not to be too biased in the above, but I am willing to be corrected if I’ve screwed anything up)

Which brings me to the Jin.

And my initial thought with them about how, without wanting to invalidate MY/JGY’s very understandable desire to have a father who would recognize him, he’s doing the same thing to his father and his father’s wife that jfm is doing to yzy. And how maybe the Jiang family is meant to be a lesson – and another way in which jgy and wwx are mirroring each other – about the danger of trying to force people to be your family. And JGS (may he rot) makes it clear that it doesn’t matter whether yzy’s fears are right and wwx is jfm’s son.

Because unlike jfm, who can be believed when he says ‘that’s my friend’s son, not mine’, JGS makes no attempt to say ‘that’s not my bio kid’. But he still gets to say ‘that’s not family’ (and so does his wife, little though we see of her) and I kind of think we’re supposed look at him and –beyond thinking he has dreadful sexual ethics even before he commits explicit rape – think about how responsibility to his children might actually mean not bringing them into a household where they’re not wanted.

Like – it’s cute to imagine JZX and JGY trying to be siblings and it’s absolutely the ‘proper Chinese wife’s place’ to accept their husband’s children (currently reading Exemplary Women of China, which is a great translation of 列女傳 the 18 BCE set of ‘what a good woman looks like’ stories and it’s got a lot of ‘good wives accept their husband’s concubine’s kids or their stepkids’ stories), but also I don’t think MXTX is asking readers to just accept misogynistic social standards and say ‘the husband sows and the wife reaps’ (though, see the Nie family who I hope to get to later…)

So despite what ms thinks and tells her son, JGS isn’t necessarily supposed to bring his bio-children home (or, he absolutely is by social rules, but MXTX doesn’t necessarily seem to agree that that’s the right thing to do). And if he does, then realistically – by standard social norms – he should bring his mother too (which if we’re being cynical is obviously why ms might have wanted a child by him). But given how positively we’re shown ms in canon, it wouldn’t make sense for the answer to be as simple as ‘then don’t visit prostitutes’ (though, like, ‘don’t cheat on your spouse; either get her on board or keep it to yourself’ is definitely a reasonable option, especially since men could divorce their wives ….)

And idek what Mo Xuanyu is meant to show. I mean, we’re obviously not supposed to think ‘bring the kid home and then later kick him out’ is okay. But was bringing him into Lanling to learn cultivation in the first place good? Bad? Would that have been the right choice is JGS hadn’t been a dick about it?

Which leads us to the Nie, who I absolutely cannot be unbiased about because I love them

I love that the Nie are our canonical ‘look, non-blood sibs can work’ family. And also our ‘ but seriously, guys, don’t do this’ family.

Nmj and nhs, who have canonically different mothers (even if it’s only Word of God that nhs’ mum is a concubine rather than a second wife) are our obvious ‘here’s the right way of doing – I can’t even call it marital infidelity but kids by multiple women’. But we don’t see what that looks like and we don’t understand it – which makes perfect sense since we’re seeing it from the perspective of wwx, who fundamentally doesn’t have a clear sense of what family should look like

And nmj is also at the center of yet another ‘don’t try to make a family work when not everyone agrees’ with jgy in 3-zun. Where even if we all agree that nmj wants to have a working relationship with jgy, I think it’s obvious (does anyone remember that awesome tumblr post about the vows and comparing 3-zun with our historical examples? I’m writing this at work and don’t have that on me … ) that nmj was absolutely not ready for the type of relationship that 3-zun is at the time when lxc talked him into it.

And 3-zun is also at the center of yet another ‘doomed triad’ (wow mxtx likes those) with nhs, jgy, and lxc. Which is one of those that manages somehow to do both. It’s a great set of ‘brothers’. Lxc and jgy really do seem to like nhs (although maybe … less so … by the end). Nhs really does seem happy to have extra ‘siblings’. I mean, the fact that he calls them all his brothers and they let him is actually a huge sign of affection from everyone involved. And yet – well.

We all know how this story ends, don’t we?

[grewlikefancyflowers]

JC’s deeply rooted resentment of WWX, JFM’s parenting, and the inevitability of the falling out of the ‘Yunmeng bros’.

In discussion of the breakdown of JC and WWX’s relationship, their falling out is often regarded as a mutual failing on both sides to properly communicate and maintain their relationship. I’m making the case here that their falling out was a foregone conclusion from the start, and in no part due to the actions of Wei Wuxian.

This is because YZY has instilled in JC the idea that JFM dislikes him, something he believes before WWX arrives in Lotus Pier, JC already feels inferior, thus as soon as potential competition for JFM’s attention comes along in the form of WWX, JC resents him, believes JFM prefers him, and looks for reasons to justify this. 

Summarising their very first interactions - from chapter 71 - WWX arrives at LP, sees JC with his puppies and is so terrified that he refuses to come down from JFM’s arms the entire day. The second day, JFM gives JC’s puppies away.

Now, I would like to think that no one seriously believes that this is an act of favouritism, but I have seen this case being made so I just want to make clear that WWX is obviously traumatised by his previous interactions with dogs. After trying for a whole day to comfort WWX, with no success, JFM does not exactly have any other choice than to give the puppies away, WWX cannot be expected to live in constant terror in the place that is supposed to be his home.

Consequently, ‘This angered Jiang Cheng so much that he threw a big tantrum. No matter how much Jiang FengMian comforted him gently, telling him that they should ‘be good friends’, he refused to talk to Wei WuXian.’

JC’s reaction is fairly understandable for an 8 year old. JFM comforts JC, and does not treat him callously or dismiss him, however it takes several days until JC will even talk to WWX.

When JC does start to warm up to him, JFM thinks it’d be a good idea for them to have a sleepover, JC is on the ‘verge of agreeing’ to this, which JFM is overjoyed by - so much so that he picks WWX up.

This is not an example of favouritism, JFM doesn't repeatedly give affection to WWX and not JC, he holds him twice - the first instance being purely because WWX was too terrified to leave his arms, the second being this one. These are the only two times where JFM is described as being affectionate towards WWX, JC is still in the lead on this count. But JC interprets this as JFM preferring WWX.

This results in the JC shutting WWX out at night.

At that time, Wei WuXian didn’t know what Jiang Cheng was mad about at all. After a pause, he replied, “I didn’t steal anything. It’s Uncle Jiang who told me to sleep with you.”

Hearing that he was still bringing up his father, almost as if he was purposely showing off, Jiang Cheng’s eyes reddened as he yelled, “Go away! If I see you again, I’ll call a bunch of dogs to bite you!”

This is the important part - JC sees WWX in the worst possible light, and rarely thinks of WWX as a person outside of how he directly impacts JC - he concludes that WWX is purposefully antagonising him, this is a trend that continues well into adulthood.

Then, when WWX flees LP after JC threatens him with dogs, JYL tells JC to find people to help search for him. However,

‘If any other disciple or servant learned about this and told Jiang FengMian, after Jiang FengMian knew how he threw Wei WuXian’s sheets out and made him hurt his leg, Jiang FengMian would definitely dislike him even more. This was also why he only dared chase after them alone and didn’t get anyone else.’

JC has obviously behaved wrongly here, and JFM would be right to scold him for it, but JC interprets this as JFM disliking him. We haven’t seen anything to suggest that JFM actually dislikes JC, he always treats him quite gently, actually. But JC is already at the conclusion that JFM dislikes him, and twists events to suit this - if his dad scolds him for misbehaving, it’s because he dislikes him. This pattern repeats after the Xuanwu Cave arc too.

This is because Madam Yu has ingrained into him the idea that JFM dislikes him, because he’s her son. This has nothing to do with WWX - because both her and JC already believe that JFM dislikes JC prior to WWX’s arrival -  she only sees him as additional fuel to use.

The only other person who mentions JFM supposedly treating WWX better than JC is JZX. I’m sure it's a coincidence that he’s the son of YZY’s best friend.

‘“Doesn’t he treat you better than treating his own child or something?”’

Note the ‘or something’, - JZX doesn’t seem to know this with certainty - he’s repeating what others have said, despite having visited Lotus Pier several times (as stated in ch.69), JZX hasn’t seen evidence for himself that JFM prefers WWX.

‘“Maybe I should’ve let you hit him, while I stand aside and watch. This way, Uncle Jiang might not need to come. Oh well, I really couldn’t hold back!”’

We know that WWX doesn’t see JFM as favouring him - so what does he mean by this? Well, LQR has had it out for WWX from the moment they met, and has already sent a letter to JFM complaining of his behaviour - at this point WWX doesn’t know that this results in them breaking the JZX/JYL engagement either, so he’s probably purely thinking that LQR summoned JFM to CR to discuss WWX’s repeated offenses. JC hasn’t done anything to invoke LQR’s ire (or rather, he’s gotten away with everything he has done), so WWX thinks that if JC fought JZX, it would not have been treated so seriously, compared to WWX, who has repeatedly misbehaved.

Contrary to fanon interpretation, WWX is not oblivious to other people’s feelings, he’s very empathetic, and additionally understands JC very well. He doesn’t see how JC is feeling here, because JC’s feelings are just so illogical...

‘Although it was only Wei WuXian’s casual words, he held mixed feelings, because he knew that this wasn’t a lie.

Jiang FengMian had never hurried to another sect in one day for anything related to him, no matter if the issue was good or bad, large or small.

Never.’

Once again, JC’s at the conclusion that JFM dislikes him, he twists events to support this. He’s looking at this scenario very strangely - JFM didn’t rush to CR because he likes WWX, he was called there by LQR, to discuss JYL’s engagement with JZX. Secondly, we’re never given any examples of scenarios where JC does anything to warrant JFM rushing over. As far as we know, they never even stay with other sects. Knowing JC’s personality, his dislike of doing anything to rock the boat, it’s extremely unlikely that he’s ever done anything to warrant JFM rushing over like this. Moreover, it’s a bizarre thing to be jealous of, WWX is in trouble, he’s not on the receiving end of positive attention from JFM. 

JC’s flawed reasoning is once again illustrated after the Xuanwu Cave arc...

‘Jiang Cheng’s expression was complicated after he had finished listening.’

This is Jiang Cheng’s reaction after WWX credits LWJ with killing the tortoise of slaughter - this is before JFM congratulates him. Before JFM says anything, JC is purely resentful about WWX having done something heroic, more so, resentful that WWX is willingly to let LWJ take most of the credit - he’s annoyed about this, most likely feeling that WWX is rubbing in his face that he doesn’t need the recognition that JC so desperately craves.

‘Jiang FengMian nodded and said, “You did well.”

Killing a giant 400-year-old beast at only 17 was way beyond what one would call ‘doing well.’’

JFM knows about JC’s… issues, he knows how he’ll react to WWX’s receiving recognition, he likely purposefully downplays his praise to avoid upsetting him. (Who’s really being favouritised? Lol)

But, even to this, JC reacts badly, he lashes out at WWX, once more interpreting him in the worst possible way.

‘Jiang Cheng hissed, “Too fucking bad, then. You shouldn’t have been so damn stubborn and you shouldn’t have cared so damn much about such a trivial thing. If you’d never moved in the first place –”’

JC’s response is to basically tell him the entire incident was his fault. Which is objectively not true - WWX only gets involved in the conflict after it has already started, and then he acts deliberately to try to end it, rather than impulsively fighting. He also starts to say that WWX should have left their allies - LWJ and JZX - to die. This is where JFM cuts him off, and tells him it’s not appropriate to say such things - he’s not scolding him harshly, JC is not being unfairly treated here, he’s done wrong, and JFM is trying to teach him why, you know, parenting. But JC, and YZY, take this to mean JFM dislikes JC.

JFM tries to teach JC about the Jiang sect’s motto once more - this is of course, not just about the motto, but about the values that JFM wants to instill in him, as a parent.

This is where Madam Yu arrives.

“Yes, he doesn’t understand, but what does it matter, as long as Wei Ying understands?!”

Of course, what she says is nonsensical, it does matter to JFM that JC understands the motto, that’s why he’s trying to teach him. If he did not care, he would have given in already.

This is further supported...

‘Jiang Cheng’s appearance and temperament all resembled his mother’s. Jiang FengMian guided him from childhood, but no matter how much he tried, he still couldn’t change his son’s nature. As such, it always seemed like he disliked his son.’

JFM has never been dismissive of JC just because he’s YZY’s son, he’s always tried to teach him, but JC always had his mother’s nature - YZY’s nature being harsh, standoffish, foul tempered, with no care for others - Note that is says it ‘seems’ like he dislikes his son, solely because he’s trying to teach him to be a better person. He has good reason for doing so - as a kid, JC never had friends, he doesn’t seem to as an adult either, he only has Jin Ling, whom he pushes away with his foul temper. JFM was just trying to raise JC to being an even-tempered person, capable of functioning in society, which is kind of what parents are supposed to do. But once more, this is taken as dislike.

Note that during JC’s outburst, every single thing JC claims about what JFM thinks of him, he’s parroting what YZY has said, none of these points have any actual evidence.

The next point to consider is how JC blames WWX for the fall of LP, despite it objectively not being his fault - JC knows this too.

‘In his heart, Jiang Cheng knew clearly that back in the cave of the Xuanwu of Slaughter at Dusk-Creek Mountain, even if Wei WuXian hadn’t saved Lan WangJi, the Wen Sect would have found some reason to come over sooner or later’

Even if WWX’s actions did prompt the Wens to act sooner than they otherwise might have - coming sooner or later would have made no difference at all because YZY outright stated she had no intention of preparing for an attack, even after WWX suggests they should, and JFM was still going to the Wens asking for their swords back - they were still uselessly trying to suck up to the Wens, thinking it would save them.

Despite knowing deep down that WWX was not to blame - he still uses it to fuel his resentment of WWX, because the resentment was there from the beginning, the only uncertainty is the means he uses to justify it.

During the ancestral hall confrontation - he uses this excuse again.

‘Jiang Cheng responded contemptuously, “You really are forgetful. What’s called a shameful person? Let me remind you. Just because you decided to be a hero and save this Second Young Master Lan, the entire Lotus Pier including my father and mother was buried. If this wasn’t enough, after the first time, you still want a second time, even wanting to save Wen-dogs and implicating my sister and her husband, how noble of you. Even nobler, you are so magnanimous to bring these two to Lotus Pier. Allowing the Wen-dog to stand at the front of my gates and letting Second Young Master Lan offer joss sticks, purely trying to antagonize me.’

Obviously, WWX did none of these things to antagonise JC, in fact he was going through a complex emotional journey of realising that he has feelings for LWJ, and that LWJ probably has feelings for him too, he doesn’t go to the ancestral shrine to mess around - he’s ‘introducing’ LWJ to JFM, YZY, and JYL, because he’s thinking about marrying him.

The problem is, JC never really sees WWX as a person, WWX has always been more of a concept - someone to compare himself to, the reason his father doesn’t like him, the reason his mother uses to berate him. It doesn’t occur to JC that WWX is a person outside of what he is to JC, and he is therefore incapable of empathising with what WWX might be feeling right now, instead the only possible conclusion is that he’s antagonising JC.

He follows the same line of thinking when WWX defects with the Wens. JC knows what he and WWX owe them, in fact JC owes them, far, far more than what WWX does - it was his parents whose bodies Wen Ning retrieved, and it was him who WN had to rescue from LP. But JC thinks, he can get away with not paying this debt, so why should he? JC is selfish, he doesn’t understand why WWX would want to help others when he doesn’t have to, so JC concludes, this is WWX showing off, ‘playing the hero’. 

Because from the moment they met, JC has never tried to know WWX for who he is, whatever WWX does, JC interprets in a negative light - when WWX tries to get LWJ’s attention, (despite it being painstakingly obvious that WWX has a crush on him) JC concludes that WWX is messing around foolishly, without reason (parroting the untrue things YZY says about WWX always seeking trouble). When WWX wants to help people, he’s playing the hero, one upping JC. JC only ever thinks of WWX in relation to himself - when WWX disappears for three months, JC’s immediate complaint is that WWX kept him waiting, that he’s put JC out by making him search for him. You could argue that JC was just worried about WWX, and not able to express it - and on some level that’s true. But there’s a very intentional contrast between how LWJ and JC react to WWX’s return - LWJ is worried about WWX, about how his cultivation method is affecting him, moreover, WWX is very clearly not himself. JC, however, does not care for that - he only sees WWX, and modao, as a tool for killing Wens.

It takes almost nothing for JGS to manipulate JC into turning against WWX in ch.73 - he readily believes every negative thing JGS says about WWX, despite being called out directly for lying by LWJ. JGS talks as if he is a servant who has forgotten his place, unlike JYL, JC does not defend him. He refuses to speak up for him - he claims that no one will - yet LWJ and MianMian did. JC didn’t turn on WWX because it was impossible for him to speak up - he was living proof that WQ and WN did not support the Wen sect in the war, he drops him the moment he can because he’s resented him from the beginning.

Another interesting tidbit about JC just fundamentally not understanding who WWX is as a person, is that he only blames LWJ for the Xuanwu Cave incident - not JZX, despite him behaving no differently to how LWJ does. This is probably because he realises WWX’s fixation on LWJ, and supposes that this is the reason that WWX got involved in the conflict. But of course, WWX would have done something whether it was solely JZX, or just a random person.

Taking all this into account, it seems almost inevitable that WWX and JC would fall out eventually, because JC was, from the start, looking for reasons to dislike WWX, he turns against him at the first opportunity he got. For the ‘Yunmeng bros’ to have a healthy relationship, JC would simply have to fix his entire personality.

JC is unable to see WWX as a person, right up until the very end of the novel - when he recalls how he impulsively put himself at risk in order to save WWX. Finally, for the first time, JC is able to understand why WWX stood up for others in Xuanwu Cave, why he helped the Wens, because JC did the same thing, put himself on the line for WWX, probably the only time JC has ever acted so selflessly. And this is why he lets him go, he lets go of the things he blamed WWX for. For the first time, he is able to empathise with WWX, he understands that WWX was never ‘playing the hero’, seeking praise or recognition, he understands that WWX helps people purely because he feels in the moment that it’s the right thing to do. This is what enables him to finally let go of WWX.

I’m always a bit baffled when people claim mxtx never gave JC a happy ending, because this is his happy ending - him being able to realise that WWX never wronged him - when he finally lets go of this, he can live freely. 

[plan-d-to-i]

I feel like the fandom loves to excuse the villains and their shitty behavior because they had bad childhoods. JC and JGY fans love to cry that their fave has "daddy issues", XY stans cry that he was an orphan who was never given love ect. and so all of their crimes should be forgiven because they have childhood trauma. Honestly a lot of the characters had terrible childhoods or something traumatic happen to them and they don't come even close to behaving like the villains. I mean a whole WWX exists and he went through way more trauma than anybody else and he's one of the most morally sound people in the novel. Nothing wrong with liking a character, but don't try to justify or excuse their actions because of trauma. Having a shitty childhood does not give you the right to be a shitty person.

Absolutely. I think it's one of the cheapest excuses to be honest. Why do unrelated strangers have to suffer bc someone had a shitty childhood? How does that make sense? Don't get me wrong the candy story about Xue Yang as a kid twists my heart; Jin Guangyao suffering watching the cruelty with which his mother was treated, powerless to do anything about it likewise, but once they were no longer vulnerable they chose the kind of people they wanted to become. They chose over and over again. I have even less sympathy for jiang cheng who largely was the architect of his own misery in his childhood by giving the worst parts of his nature free rein. He never had to fear not having food or shelter. His mother was a horrible venomous woman, but he had YanLi favoring him, and in spite of how his stans try to twist it, his father only tried to gently guide him along. jc chose to echo YZY's world views and rhetoric to a t HIMSELF -Don't help anyone. Only help yourself. Balme everything ever on Wei Wuxian- and then was mad his father didn't praise him for it!

Wei Wuxian was left orphaned not even knowing what happened to his parents when he was four or five and spent four years on the streets, freezing, starving and being mauled by dogs fighting for food. Then he got to Lotus Pier where YZY had to be a venomous piece of shit, and make it her life's purpose to torment him, punish him for every imagined infraction and trash talk his dead parents.

Jiang Fengmian’s wife, Yu Ziyuan, had never been interested in having a conversation with him at all. If she didn’t whip him a few times and tell him to get out, kneel at the ancestral shrine, and keep far away from Jiang Cheng, he already considered that pretty good. (Chapter 29)

If Wei Wuxian hadn't made a conscious choice to see the best and forget the rest in the time he spent in Lotus Pier how miserable would another type of person have been in his place?!!

Someone asked, “Clan Jiang’s Lotus Pier has to be a lot more fun than this, right?”

Laughing, Wei Wuxian said, “Whether it’s fun or not depends on you. There are definitely a lot fewer rules, and there’s no need to wake up so early.” (Chapter 13)

How much carte blanche in terms of bad behavior should everything he went through have given him?! Instead not only is he a nice guy regardless but people in this fandom are actually pressed he didn't remain jc's servant for life after jc was already responsible for his DEATH once! They're try to excuse everyone who was shitty, but get mad that WWX was heroic...

[righteousinadversity]

Hi! I read your post about JC's possible redemption in the Burial Mounds arc, and I was wondering if you could expand on that? What did you mean?

Ah, I think you mean this post? God, I wrote this quite a while ago and had tons of notions I should probably correct. So many of my views developed and this was probably one of my more Jiang Cheng Friendly posts so it's cringe just thinking about it.

The thing is, I seriously started looking into their relationship after I read some 'metas' which... were just really uncomfortable to read? I mean, sibling abuse is an actual, real thing, and even then, JC and WWX's relationship was never even that of brothers. I can give you my thoughts on JC and WWX's relationship, which I developed from a thorough and comprehensive reading of the novel?

(Indented is from the post you mentioned)

Post-canon reconciliation for Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian is impossible. There's too much between them, and it is imperative for both their journeys to be separated from each other here on out.

Honestly, yes. If JC should have some semblance of growth, which honestly I doubt with the way he treats WN, he needs to stop centring his life around WWX. For him, In WWX's first life, WWX is the insurmountable mountain that is just there for him to beat and overcome, and in his second life, WWX is his justification for the horrors he inflicts.

And in WWX's case, absolutely. WWX canonically excuses many of JC's actions. This is because of his upbringing undoubtedly, because he'd never let anyone else do that to him. With JC, he is always walking on eggshells around him, always making sure to appease him, and even then JC constantly disparages him- so yes, WWX's journey absolutely requires him to no longer be near JC or his poison.

But I think, more importantly, Post-Canon reconciliation is impossible because JC led a fucking siege against WWX and the innocents he protected; Because JC actively tortured anyone who even allegedly practised demonic cultivation (Come on, couldn't he have killed XY? The actual demonic cultivator?); Because JC uses WWX's childhood trauma, the one thing he is terrified of, the thing he promised to protect WWX from, against him.

Burial-mounds arc reconciliation for Jiang Cheng and Wei Wuxian is possible, but only with lots and lots of therapy. And not by going back to lotus pier. I firmly believe that leaving lotus pier is needed for Wei Wuxian. However, in a world where qionqi path doesn't happen, and things are better, I think, with time, they could have remade their relationship.

So, First thing, I don't say redemption and thank gods for that. Redemption for JC turning away from a life debt would be to actually fulfil it, which he goes on to actively not do. About Reconciliation, I probably wrote this with regard to JC bringing JYL to see WWX and WWX getting to name JL.

But, it wouldn't be reconciliation. It is the exact bullshit relationship we see of the trio in their first interaction: JC does something wrong, JYL plays mediator, WWX says it's no big deal, no one digs into the serious issues. Doing this when they are kids hiding from adults is one thing because a lot of kids bond like this. It's a whole different scenario when there are literal lives at stake when you actively turn the world against (your brother-friend-martial relation-what the ever-loving fuck is he-) the man trying to repay the debt you owe.

The entire Lotus Pier Trio is a mess of Children From Abusive Households: WWX with his bar for treatment so low it's a tripping hazard in hell, JYL with her conflict shy nature and willful naivety about the bad things in the world, JC with his incredibly low self-esteem and resentment issues. The contrast between the three is quite interesting: JC continues the cycle of abuse and resentment, JYL does not understand that the way JC treats WWX is not okay because she's seen the way YZY used to treat him, and WWX breaks the cycle, never allowing for that to affect how he treats others.

I do believe that JC and JYL could have broken that cycle. You can actively choose not to be an asshole, surprisingly enough. They could have become better. I truly believe JYL, as a mother, would have realised how terrible her childhood was, how terrible it was for all of them, but WWX especially so.

But again, it is a matter of choosing.

JC, was in a position out of abuse, in a position of power. This was where he could have actively chosen to be better, to look beyond the poisonous words his mother told him, and for the sake of either his own debt or to live up to the sect's legacy or even his care for WWX, stand by WWX's side as he protected the Wens.

Honestly, no Qiongqi Path is a pipe dream at best. Even without it, the Sects would have attacked WWX eventually, because JGS and JGY were actively plotting to make it so; because JC as the person who knew WWX and went to the Burial Mounds declared him an enemy of the cultivation sects and did nothing to discourage the rising rumours; because other people in power like LXC and NMJ decided that they would rather listen to the wagging tongues than look for actual evidence.

The entire situation was a rigged system against WWX.

There would have to be lots of yelling, angst, and both of them coming to the realisation that Wei Wuxian owes YunmengJiang nothing. There is a small, tiny, possibility, that they could leave the traumas of their past and Yu Ziyuan's influence behind to build a new, better relationship.

Gods I regret ever writing that first line! Yelling and angst would just be JC screaming, like in Guanyin Temple. There'd be no yelling from WWX's side. WWX was practically groomed to excuse everything JC said or did, and handle the consequences of it. So, let's please not do that.

Also, I don't think WWX needs to come to the realisation that he owes YMJ nothing. Like, he gave his golden core for that. I think any debt is paid in full. But JC, boy JC needs to have a lot of realisations regarding this.

JC's relationship with WWX is embroiled in jealousy and resentment and competition from the time WWX arrives at Lotus Pier.

JC consistently demonstrates is that he neither shares nor is he able to understand WWX's point of view, motivations and priorities. JC is incredibly self-centred with regards to WWX, and subconsciously believes every one of WWX's actions to be somehow to show him up, or to incite some emotion in him, which is... just not true?

And JC, much like his mother and probably largely because of her, believes that WWX owes the YMJ for taking him in. He subconsciously at least blames WWX for YMJ's massacre, which turns into true belief with 13 years of rage and resentment.

Okay. Now. This is... complicated. As a person, I believe that you have the ability to unlearn what you are taught as a child. But, here's the thing. WWX can't teach JC to be better. Both JYL and WWX actively excuse JC's bad actions throughout the canon.

Since neither JYL nor WWX will tell him he is fucked up, JC would have to come to that realisation on his own. Which... again, he is in a position of power, with no authority figure over him. He makes active choices that are terrible, never has a sense of remorse for them. So, it's a stretch to believe JC would realise his own terrible behaviour, and by a stretch I mean it's as long as the fucking Thames. He needs a whole ass once-in-a-lifetime revelation to stop being an asshole for like, one night.

But, again, I do say, tiny possibility, which I suppose does exist. Again, I quite possibly wrote this with reference to the Yiling Visit JC and JYL pays WWX, which if you look at the dialogue seems fine because JC asks about WWX's injury, they talk about the stage fight quite humorously, and it seems fine.

But then you realise JC gutted WWX in the staged fight to the point his intestines were hanging out. You realise JC saw the village WWX was at and didn't even think of bringing them some sort of aid.

But again, I don't think Twin Prides of Yunmeng will happen. Wei Wuxian will want to stay with the Dafan Wens, and Jiang Cheng won't let them come to Lotus Pier due to both political and personal reasons.

I said Dafan Wens to refer to the Wen Remnants, which was an honest mistake I made since I did enter the fandom through CQL. Just to be clear, I discuss novel canon in this blog. CQL for me while enjoyable did a great disservice to the book, the characterization, the plot and a lot of other stuff.

Also, JC not letting the Wens go to Lotus Pier has no political reason. If he properly claimed the life-debt excuse, he could easily have ensured their safety. He doesn't and actively does things that turn the cultivation sects against WWX.

Twin Prides/Heroes of Yunmeng was something WWX says to appease JC when JC says JFM doesn't like him for reprimanding JC when he basically said WWX should have let LWJ and JZX die. And JC turns it into this solemn oath of loyalty that WWX can never make and cling onto it. And yet, at the first opportunity, he drops WWX just like that. Loyalty is a two-way road, JC, and WWX owes you nothing after the bullshit you pulled. JC wants his relationship with WWX to be on his skewed version of loyalty and demands WWX's obedience, which is... really just fucked up.

I hope this clarified my view on JC and WWX's relationship, anon!

[crossdressingdeath]

I agree with your points on the various threads you talk about of the Jiang Family. Reading them gave me lot of insight on their characters especially JYL once I took off my rose-tinted glasses.

Madam Yu is poison when it comes to her family dynamics and unfortunately JC turns to her guide more so than his own father. Madam Yu is a character who purposely makes things harder for her self because she is unsatisfied and unhappy. People in the fandom like to say she is a victim because her husband is not in love with her. But really who would love her as a wife or as a mother? I wouldn't... Honestly can you imagine living your whole life being tense at the dining table. I always joke with my mother and play funny pranks it'd fucking hurt me if my own mother would have said she wished I wasn't born. I am no psychologist but ya gotta admit shit like that would make you have trust issues or make you rethink critically of your own mother.

For all the Madam Stan out... MY is incredibly hard to please with

People like Madam Yu is destined to live a lonely life because they are incredibly narrow-minded and point out all the faults in their own life instead of their own actions.

That is why WWX had a second chance. I always think that he must have received divine intervention and reaped his awards because of all the good and acculmated good karma earned in his first life. He followed his own moral code and did the right thing even if things went south for him.

She is not a victim, but an abuser, a woman who terrorizes her own husband, children, and everyone around her for no apparent reason.

I'm beginning to suspect that, just as JC must have been appeased by his actions, Madam Yu was as a child.

Well, WWX got a second chance because he was powerful enough and lucky enough in his acquaintances that he was picked up as a useful tool for revenge. It gets glossed over a lot because it's not a hugely important part of the story, but WWX only gets brought back so someone else can take advantage of his incredible skill and good nature; the only difference is that unlike the Jiangs NHS is happy to leave WWX alone to live his life once the task he needs him for is done. I don't think divine intervention figures into it, he was just useful. To useful to leave dead, as it happens. Remember, all the sects were trying to track down WWX's spirit, presumably so they could use it; NHS and MXY were just the ones to make it work.

But yeah, people always treat YZY like a victim when... name one thing that happens to her that isn't her own damn fault. Her husband doesn't love her? Well, maybe she shouldn't have forced him to marry her! Her children are useless? Maybe she should have taught them instead of just berating them when they weren't instantly perfect! Her sect was destroyed and she died? Maybe she shouldn't have picked a fight with the people who'd parked an army on her doorstep! Her husband likes his ward better than her son because he was in love with the kid's mother rather than his wife? ...Well, that one's something she made up so it's even more her fault than the others because any consequences are entirely in her head and any rumours about it came from her. Really, if JFM wasn't so insanely distant and conflict-averse she would've been out on her ass years before WWX showed up in Lotus Pier. In fact morally she should have been the moment she started mistreating his children; JFM might have been okay to ignore it for himself, but he didn't have the right to make that decision for his kids. YZY got infinitely more than she ever deserved just by being allowed to stay in Lotus Pier; she certainly didn't deserve love from anyone there. Also, I hate this insistence that JFM was abusive because he didn't bow before YZY's every whim; seriously, pay attention to those arguments and it's like "He was abusive to YZY because instead of leaving WWX to starve on the street he brought him into the sect and gave him a position worthy of his skills", "He was abusive to YZY because he occasionally told her off for abusing children", "He was abusive to YZY because he had feelings for someone other than her at some point", "He was abusive to YZY because she concluded he liked his brilliant and charming ward better than his jackass son who she actively prevented from learning anything approaching decent behaviour and he didn't immediately devote all his time and attention to showing her otherwise"... They range from stupid to the usual JC stan argument of "How dare he not shut up and take abuse and instead openly dislike being treated like that". YZY deserved death more than she deserved anything approaching love from the people in her life and people claiming that JFM was the abusive one because he didn't obediently adore the woman who'd been treating him like shit for years just because she wanted it are... so wrong.

[vrishchikawrites]

About YZY leaving YMJ/JFM with her kids Post-WWX Arrival

Dear Dee, feel free to delete or ignore this or post it, whatever floats your boat. This just stuck in my head after those posts and I had to blurt it all to someone. Thanks for taking the time to read my word vomit.

So I had to do this instead of an ask because it got long and I wasn't sure how many asks it'd need or how short I could cut it down without losing parts of the argument. And then other things came up as I was writing and, well.  Well..... >_>;;;; 

But you know, after that post/ask you had about YZY fics saying 'Fuck U' to YMJ/JFM & leaving both with her kids, I had a sarcastic 'yeah right' attitude about it. Mainly due to a lot of negation emotions to such an abusive (and delusional) bitch, partly due to how she wouldn't do that since it doesn't seem to be something her sort of character would consider either because she'd think of it as 'losing' (losing what, IDK, it's why I consider her type of person crazy) or she legit wouldn't think about such a viable action.

But then later, in the shower, I seriously went 'Wait, she can't fucking do that' and it wouldn't be about how MXTX uses her as a part of the narrative but entirely about the/their culture in the novel; the actions that have and would be taken in response; and her entire toxic personality as well.

1) We already know that the sects and the cultivation world in general is sexist, elitist and so Capital T 'Traditional' to the point that it's starting to petrify and any deviancy from this is an exception rather than the norm. YZY might be a madame of a great sect (for what that's worth considering how shit of a madame she's been and the titles she's chosen for herself) but she's still a woman even with her high rank and the things she's personally accomplished.

Even if she was in her rights to leave a 'bad' marriage, she'd be the one who'd get scolded more instead of JFM by her natal family, her former husband's family and by their entire society at large even if she had a few singular supporters. Because That's Not How Things Are Done in their society and I do believe that such a thing was rare even when it was accepted method by the upper echelons. Especially since it would have to be done by more than YZY simply deciding that She Wants Out and just- goes and Gets Out. With no serious allegations that would allow her to divorce or separate from YMJ/JFM without the input from her family, JFM's family and, I think, possibly some measure of compensation as well. And no, having or bringing in a 'bastard child' is not a serious enough offence for such a humongous decision. I think something more along the lines of treason or crimes against multiple, high-ranking parties would be more along the lines. Maybe.

And even if she does this, she'd be considered 'Used Goods' (such a terrible comment) and there'd be no other good/proper marriage prospects for a divorced woman with children let alone a woman like YZY with her entire abrasive personality and attitude put off even easy-going JFM.

(If she'd been widowed then it'd be more forgiven but I consider that a Real Bad End since, IMO, it would lead to the sudden and inevitable decline of YMJ either via mass exodus of disciples and/or residents of LP; being merged with another sect due to it's unstable leadership; or create an internal political war 'cause I bet you anything that the YMJ Elders/relatives (if they have any) Would Not Want YZY in charge of YMJ when she's already proven herself such a shit betrothed let alone madame.)

2) Speaking of families, while YMJ/JFM/LP as a whole might be glad to see YZY's back, I don't think her natal sect, MSY, will be glad to see her come storming back after all the effort they put into getting that particular marriage alliance with YMJ. And if she brings her children with her? Oh man, oh boy- mother or not, that could be considered as kidnapping or line theft (is that a thing?) especially if YZY is also seriously considering divorce proceedings and raising them as Yu and not Jiang. That could give leave to, for anyone more unforgiving and maybe JFM if he's pushed enough, disown both JYL and JWY from the Jiangs through no fault of their own (though I'm sure YZY would make it so as well as blame JFM for her own decisions and mistakes).

Therefore, any inheritance or benefits they might gain for being legitimised children of a great sect are forfeited. JYL will likely lose that betrothal with JZX because JGS will drop it like a hot potato and JWY won't be a sect heir because YZY literally decided to remove that by deciding to raise JWY as a Yu, no matter their blood relation to JFM. They leave him, they leave YMJ and everything attached with it. Which is if YMJ/JFM doesn't demand MSY to give back their heir/ess and to punish YZY for her actions. Or send all three of them back for the appropriate reactions/decisions.

Their society would demand no less in reaction because, to them, it would seem like YZY had gone mad and JFM would look weak (or weaker) and imply that YMJ is vulnerable and exploitable if JFM doesn't do something in response to her actions. That's not even getting into what the other smaller sects may try to do in an attempt to curry favour with YMJ or what LLJ or QSW would try in order to destroy or diminish YMJ. And whether JFM chooses to demand his children back or not, it may not change the fact that this may give him reason enough to choose a nephew or niece to be the new sect heir especially if, even after getting rid of YZY's poisonous influence, JWY grows up to be his mother's child more than his father's or even his own person.

Either way, such a thing would bring great backlash on YZY, and MSY as well as the collateral. No one would want to give face to her or her children because it would bring up some very uncomfortable questions and scenarios to the other sects- specifically, what would happen if the female members of their clans/sets decided to follow the footsteps of YZY and leave with their children and heirs. Especially if they use it as an excuse to leave for their own comfort and whims and not some legitimate wrongs and dangers. That would create some more restrictions on women thanks to YZY

3) And lastly, if any one of those idiot YZY stans think that she'd ever give up the status of being a madame of a great sect they'd be as crazy or crazier than her. YZY is all about status and power and face. Specifically, her status, power and face and how people in her reach reflect her or 'insult' her. She is a selfish, terrible, abusive and toxic person and can only see people in regards to how they would benefit her and the elevation of her and in no other way. Especially her family. They cannot be their own person, they can only be an extension of her and gods forbid they go against her.

We can see this in how she treats the people she supposedly loves. JFM? Arguments day in, day out along with accusations and slander of cheating, having one(1) supposed 'bastard' and being 'in love' with CSSR. Which all seems sus as hell. And that's when she's actually there and not out 'night hunting'. Even her 'training' seems to border on unhelpful rather then helpful if my vague recollections of juniors fainting from exhaustion can be relied upon (please call me out if they're not or find proof).

JYL? Berated by not being 'strong' but not helped at all to be 'strong'. It doesn't help that YZY seems to believe in the same standards strength in their society- that is, of martial masculine strength which does not and should not apply to JYL who has been said to be sickly. Which means h should have been learning a different way of cultivation/fighting anyway.  If that was something she wanted and had been offered in the first place- which I doubt. That isn't even getting into her repeated generational trauma mess of a betrothal which was decided only by those 'sworn sisters', accepted by her as a way out of her terrible home life and puts her squarely within reach of JGS who we know to be a womaniser, rapist, predator and a possible ephebophile considering we don't know the exact age of his youngest 'conquest' or the age of MZY's mother when they met which could be anywhere from 14 to 21.

JWY? Gods, so much meta on him and his(non-) relationships with his parents that I don't think I can contribute more to it. It's been all said and done. Unless people want me to stir the pot by saying that, maybe, just maybe, YZY resents JWY as much as she 'loves' him.Either because he's her son and yet never manages to 'accomplish as much' as WWX or because he's a boy and therefore, more benefits and allowances than a girl/woman- more than anything that YZY ever got without either a fight or screaming at someone about. *shrug*

So, in conclusion to this sudden an unexpected essay that I wrote(I'm so sorry about that, I thought it would be shorter -.-;;;;), YZY leaving YMJ/JFM with her kids? Impossible. Not without some sort of personality transplant or a complete AU. She's too prideful, too bitter, too angry, too everything negative and little positive. She's a resentful product of the values and restraints of her society taken to the extreme negative with a willingness to inflict her pain on others to an abusive degree. But she's also too obsessed and reliant on those same values and restraints to keep up the image of her status. So her? Giving those up? You'd be more likely to see WRH as a doting grandfather than that.

---

Dee - All of this is true and yes YZY leaving YMJ is highly unlikely. While there will be consequences if she decides to leave, she does canonically lives separately from her husband. They seem to be in a situation where they are married but living separately, which was a common way to end a marriage (at least in spirit) back then. She essentially had all the perks of being Madam Jiang but fulfilled none of the responsibilities.

Afaik, her training the Jiang disciples is a donghua thing? I may be wrong but I recall she spent most of her time nighthunting.

As for taking her children along with her- that's completely impossible. At that point, children were the property of the father. She could leave but she would've never been allowed to take JC.

[wifiwuxians]

I’ll come right out and say it: YZY did what she did and yeah, ok, it wasn’t fucking cool but what fucking choice did she really have? Yes, she is a badass warrior and super tough but if someone thinks for one second that she could have actually said no if she didn’t want to marry JFM, they’re insane.

She was a woman. In an ancient culture where we canonically see women being put down for not having a dick and still daring to have opinions. (Mianmian anyone?)

And people who want to say, “Oh well she could have just not had children blah blah blah”. Again, this is a time and place where people (LITERALLY THE MAIN CHARACTER) live and die by public opinion of them.

YZY had very few choices in her own life and you know what? Yeah, the ones she did make for herself were bad but fuck look at her options.

I don't think she should have taken it out on her kids but I do acknowledge everything is so bleak, even with how powerful and respected she was. It's all just a huge mess and I wish we knew more about the characters

I do find it curious how WLJ was like "she forced jfm to marry her with her influence", but then when she and jfm are talking, she makes it sound like it was an arranged marriage neither of them really wanted or enjoyed (even though jfm made it seem like she was wrong about this)

[october-renaissance]

I'm surprised that there's such a strong consensus that Jiang Fengmian was totally irredeemable as a parent. Like, was he perfect? No. Did his behavior contribute to a lot of Jiang Cheng’s issues? Certainly. Was he the father JC needed? Probably not. But I would really contest the idea that he was a god-awful father who openly favored Wei Wuxian and didn’t love JC.

Disclaimer: these are all just my opinions. Obviously JFm can be interpreted as he popularly is, I'm just surprised it's so widely accepted as the One Truth.

When I watched the show, JFm struck me as generally reserved, gentle, forgiving, and passive. In his scenes with WWx and JC, both the narrative and his actor's choices indicate to me that he regards them with quiet pride and affection. I mean, when WWx and JC return to Lotus Pier after running off to do who-knows-what, he doesn’t scold them or even look angry. He’s not interested in punishing them, he only wants to know if they had a safe journey. And I do mean they – both WWx and JC – because he's addressing them both and pretty much does treat them the same way, as he does in most of the trio's scenes together. There are only two differences in his treatment of them throughout the show that I can see.

JFm is obviously portrayed as having a stronger connection with WWx. They have more in common ideologically and personality-wise, and WWx embodies their sect’s teachings in a way that JC simply does not. JC also inherited his mother’s personality, and Yu Ziyuan is someone JFm struggles to get along with, despite how much he clearly cares about her. JC clearly notices that he has a weaker connection with JFm than WWx and is naturally hurt, but it’s not necessarily anyone’s fault. Some people just vibe with certain types over others, and this is true even within family units. In all but one of his scenes, it's not like JFm is excluding JC or otherwise neglecting him.

JFm corrects or reprimands JC more often than WWx. A few times, he says things along the lines of “watch what you say” to JC, but not to WWx. The thing is, JFm’s not wrong for correcting JC in this way, especially since saying things in anger is an established pattern with him. As a future sect leader and just as a person, JC should learn to speak thoughtfully and tactfully. I’m also inclined to accept WWx’s argument that JFm is less strict with him because he’s not going to become sect leader (meaning he doesn’t need to be held to a higher standard) and because he’s not actually JFm’s kid. This is a great way to inspire feelings of inequality and insecurity in children, but I don’t think JFm has to be interpreted as malicious or negligent because of this behavior. He’s simply not perfect.

In addition to this, while these two problems are present in several of the scenes JFm has with WWx and JC, there are really only two scenes I can point to where JFm unambiguously messed up.

The dinner scene. JFm sits the Yunmeng trio down for dinner, YZy swoops in, makes everyone feel terrible about themselves, and accuses JFm of favoring Cangse-sanren over herself and therefore of favoring WWx over JC. JFm does… practically nothing. He doesn’t try very hard to stop or contradict her. This passivity allows YZy to hit everyone right in their sore spots.

The sickbed scene. WWx has just woken up after passing out in Lotus Pier. JFm praises WWx’s accomplishments and coldly ignores JC. JC scolds WWx for playing hero by... helping his allies in a battle that he didn't even start?? JFm tries to explain to his son why this is a no-good perspective to have, then, when told that JC didn’t mean it, tells him that he still can’t say whatever just because he’s angry. YZy comes in to pick a fight, JFm once again fails to do anything about it, and JC concludes that JFm hates him. If we take the scene as it is, this whole interaction was very uncool of JFm. He was cold to the point of hostility towards his son and should have done more to dispute the accusations YZy was throwing at him. But the thing is, it feels out of character for the JFm of earlier appearances to glare at and ignore JC just because WWx acknowledged his accomplishments. It kind of feels like the writers sacrificed character consistency to frame JFm as the bad guy in that scene. Besides that, JC was 100% in the wrong when he scolded WWx and he deserved to be corrected. Whether he meant what he said or was just venting anger, he was in the wrong.

It's easy to see how his parents' behavior fed JC's fears and insecurities, and I think people tend to take YZy’s claims of favoritism at face value at least in part because JFm doesn’t do much to correct her. It's taken as an indication that JFm doesn’t correct her because he can’t, because she’s right. I interpret it more like he's so incredulous or so sick of having the same arguments that he just waits for them to blow over. This clearly causes lots of problems, but it also doesn't make JFm an uncaring or irredeemable father.

In fact, I think it's frankly unlikely that he's uncaring towards JC or that their relationship is all bad. I think it's telling that, in their scenes together, JC is unusually gentle towards JFm and doesn't put up that prickly front like he usually does.

So yeah. I interpret JFm and JC’s relationship to be more along the lines of “bad communication worsened by difficult circumstances and clashing personalities” than “terrible father to unfavored son”.

[pumpkinpaix]

13 for wwx, lwj, lqr, and madame yu

13. Unpopular opinion about XXX character?

👀 all right let’s go.

Wei Wuxian: wei wuxian has done unspeakably cruel things to innocent people, things that are honestly pretty unforgivable. wei wuxian is absolutely a villain in his first life--a villain who breaks my heart, who is completely understandable, but a villain nonetheless. from a raw like, harm-caused perspective? wei wuxian is orders of magnitude ahead of jin guangyao. his personal body count is higher than literally anyone else possibly like, in all of the history of the world.

this does not mean I don’t like him, nor does it mean i think he doesn’t deserve happiness. i love him very very much. but even he says it about himself: he was not a good person. in a very real sort of application, i think he reminds us that even terrible people are people and that compassion should not be given selectively, if that makes sense. that compassion matters and that people can change, even if you never forgive them. and you never have to for that to still be true.

Lan Wangji: lan wangji is enormously self-motivated. i think he finds being a good person difficult, in that i don’t think he likes people, so he finds it hard to care about them. I think he clings very hard to rules not just because like, type-a personality, but because that’s his primary moral compass. I don’t think kindness comes naturally to him, but i think he very much wants to be a good person. i think he has great concern for fairness, but that’s not the same as “goodness”, if that makes sense. so the concept of him always being where the chaos is--i don’t think he does that because he cares for the poor and disenfranchised. I think he does it because he thinks it is unfair that they should give more or less help based on arbitrary markers like class or status. this is sort of flippant, but like, i think he doesn’t do it because he cares about the disenfranchised so much as he doesn’t care for the wealthy. i think his natural inclination is to be petty and selfish and angry, but that he knows this about himself and tries, in his own way, to not be like that--and he does that by using an external system to help him make judgments since they don’t come easily to him. but like, he only tries so much, you know? he’s not interested in playing nice and he doesn’t care who knows it. people perceive it as both a sort of intense honor or an intense arrogance, but I think it’s somewhere in the middle there. this is in contrast to lan xichen, who i think is naturally very inclined towards goodness, in a way that’s often debilitating. anyways, once again, this is not “i think lwj is a bad person” nor is it “i don’t like lwj”. as xichen kin, I have to tell you that i love lan wangji so fucking much. i love his selfishness, and i love his fucked up brain and i love his anger and his attempt to be good anyways, even though it’s hard. that’s really important to me. I think he is bad at empathy, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t care deeply, viscerally, intensely.

Lan Qiren: lan qiren fucked up the jades, but he really was trying his hardest and he loves them very much. he is angry because he loves. i think he harbors a very real and justified resentment for his brother, and that probably some of it spilled out onto lwj and lxc in ways that were not fair, but like. can you blame him? can you really? forced to take on the responsibilities of a sect he never prepared for, forced to raise two children he did not sire or ask for, all while his brother spends his days alone, locked up in his house, forgoing everything in life for a woman that, in lqr’s eyes, is immoral and cruel. his brother abandoned him for her. that’s a lot to handle--so like, his hatred for wei wuxian and his anger with lan wangji--that’s not born out of simple dislike and old-fashioned prejudice. that’s born from anger: at his brother, at wei wuxian, at lan wangji, at himself for failing to save his nephew from this, even when he had tried so hard. did he express that in the best way? probably not, but. I get it. i do not think lwj resents him, nor do i think wwx resents him because they also understand this.

Yu Ziyuan: a lot of people tend to interpret her attitudes towards her children as rooted in her jealousy regarding jfm and cssr, but I disagree. I also think people interpret her cutting words towards jc especially to be like--her trying to exercise control over her kids in her own power play against her husband, but that’s not at all what I see. I think she really loves her children, so much, but that she is afraid for them--that jfm’s antipathy towards her is going to be the cause of their failures. that her failures as a woman and as a mother are going to be the reason her children cannot succeed. and, because of her personality, this manifests as her lashing out at them in that particular way. is it kind? no. does it traumatize them? yes. but like, I think very distinctly the way wwx and jc talk about yzy after her death is very indicative of the respect they hold for her, despite that. is that relationship going to be complicated? yeah. but like. idk. this is a really personal thing for me for Reasons, and I understand why some people really hate her, but I’m not willing to change this interpretation for me personally.

i also have an entire hc as to why she is so angry with cssr, and it’s Not because of jfm’s lingering affections--in a roundabout way, it’s about cssr’s reaction to madam lan, but THAT’S A WHOLE OTHER STORY

WOW OKAY cool here we are then.

salt asks (no longer taking these, thank you for playing!!)

[watch-grok-brainrot]

Wei Wuxian and Chinese Virtues of 忠孝仁义

There’s a lot of conversation about Wei Wuxian and how he struck out on his path without a concern for the Jiangs; about how he’s reckless and not giving a sh*t about his role within his society; about how he had a family and siblings and threw it all away for his sense of right and wrong. But the way I read his actions is within the context of the virtues of 忠孝仁义 (and how the virtues, especially 义, is ingrained in him via the Jiang sect motto). WWX’s major decisions can all be read as him acting in accordance with one or more of these virtues. Even when WWX is being his most irreverent self (and yes he’s rude and bring about a lot of second hand shame) he still remembers the we-self (to borrow from baoshan-sanren’s post) context as the head disciple of the Jiang Sect. Even when he seems to abandon everything, he didn’t abandon his understanding of these virtues. 

First of all, let’s talk about 忠. 忠 (zhōng) is loyalty, devotion, fidelity. I usually associate the concept with loyalty towards your country but it can be applied to other units too. In the case of CQL where we don’t see an Emperor or country, it would only make sense that this concept be applied to either a person (e.g. SuShe at JGY) or a sect. 

Tangent, feel free to skip: An (maybe THE) embodiment of this virtue is 岳飞 (Yue Fei), one of THE MOST famous Chinese generals. Yue Fei lived during the second half of the Song dynasty. He loved his country so much, he wrote poetry about drinking his enemy’s blood and eating their flesh (壮志饥餐胡虏肉，笑谈渴饮匈奴血) and taking back his country’s lands and saving the two previous emperors from being POWs. He is famous for the tattoo of the words “尽忠报国” (exhausting all loyalties to replay country aka i will be loyal and fight for my country until i die) on his back bestowed by his mother before he left home. When he was unjustly executed for treason, the executioners saw that on his back and the people knew a great man was wronged.  

(if anyone wants a translation of the poem and a rambly share about some of my favorite Yue Fei  related facts/stories, let me know. Otherwise, i’m gonna get back to our favorite necromancer)

So back to WWX. His loyalties are very much with the Jiang sect.  After JFM and YZY dies, within the structure of 忠, Jiang Cheng is effectively who he needs to be loyal to because Jiang Cheng is the sect leader and essentially the symbol of the sect. The act of giving up his core to JC, then, embodies the idea of loyalty within the context of 忠. (I’ve seen memes about how WWX gave consent, WQ gave consent, but JC didn’t. drwcn has a great post about consent. For this post, i’m not going to go into it because this is outside my defined scope.) Furthermore, 忠 compels WWX to protect the Jiangs. I’ve read meta that thinks WWX was trying to get himself killed based on the crossing of his hanfu and his mouthing off at Wen Chao. I’m inclined to believe that reading because if dying means JC would never find out, so be it. And as long as WWX is dead, there will be no evidence of the core transfer so JC would never lose face before other cultivators. It would mean the Jiang sect can be rebuilt to its old status without being tainted by WWX’s sacrifice. 

Ok, next is 孝. 孝 (xiào) is most often translated as filial piety. I don’t think there is a good sense of it in western culture. In chinese culture, it is the expected deference younger generations need to display to elders in their direct lineage. [Note: i use lineage because you can be 孝 towards your biological parents and grandparents, your kungfu master and their master, your adopted/honor bound parents, etc but not to everyone who is in a higher generation. It’s very family/lineage based.] 孝 is complicated because it’s ingrained into Chinese kids at a really young age. Go pour your grandparents tea. Go give your grandparents a back rub. Listen to your parents. When your parents get old, you’ll take care of them. Respect your elders. Even if your elders are wrong, don’t talk back. It’s a set of emotions that tie you to your ancestry. To turn your back on it feels like turning your back on your culture and identity. 

Tangent, feel free to skip: Ok, this is really cool and I had to share. In looking up 孝 in the online xinhua dictionary, it says about the etymology: “形声。从老省，从子。” This is so cool! We have two characters: 老 (old, as in Yiling Laozu) and 子 (child). You’ll notice 孝 is a character where to top part of 老 is taken and 子 essentially follows. This character is a style of character where the meaning comes from the structure of the character. So 孝 is where the children follow the old, often blindly and with disregard of their own needs. 

WWX, as an orphan, can only direct his 孝 towards Jiang Fengmian and Yu Ziyuan. 1) No matter how awful they were as parents, JFM and YZY raised WWX. 2) WWX is the head disciple. That means JFM is his shifu. [He calls JC his shidi and JYL his shijie for that reason.] That teacher-disciple relation is often described as “一日为师,终生为父” (a teacher for one day should be treated like a father for life). Both 1 and 2 bind WWX to the Jiangs regardless of his adoption status. So, when on the boat YZY and JFM tell WWX to take care of JC and JYL, it’s the order of an elder in his direct lineage. To not listen, to not defer to that order would not be 孝. Considering they perished at Lotus Pier, WWX was obligated to execute those orders to their fullest whatever the price (i.e. golden core). 

Along those same lines, out of 孝 (and human decency, tbh) WWX and JC had to retrieve JFM and YZY’s bodies. Wen Ning helping them out in that situation is a HUGE favor. Not to mention all the other things WN and Wen Qing does for them. I will get to the favors and their ramifications later. 

Ok, moving on to 仁. 仁 (rén) is most often translated as benevolence or humanity. (I want to say I find the translation of humanity very interesting from a bilingual child’s perspective because the chinese character for person/human is 人 which is also rén. I got the concept confused a LOT.) 仁 is found in the love and kindness shown towards fellow humans. Ctext often translates it as virtue, which is a bit too broad, IMO. I think this line from Confucian Analects explain the concept succinctly: 

樊遲問仁。子曰：”愛人”

Fan Chi asked about benevolence [仁]. Confucius said, "It is to love all men." 

WWX embodies this love better than everyone else in the story (except maybe LSZ but LSZ probably gets it from WWX). WWX meets stuttering WN and acknowledges him, offers to give advice, and truly sees the younger man. He treats WN with kindness and friendship (and yes, he takes advantage of WN’s willingness to push him around in a turnip wagon but that’s more shenanigans). WWX also sees the Wens at Phoenix Mountain as human and steps out of line to help them.  His blindfolded five arrow show stems out of his 仁. His saving Mianmian is also an expression of his 仁. So many of WWX’s actions stem from 仁. A lot of the fandom see it as his empathy and I agree! It is that! But it can also be viewed as his internalization of the virtue to love humanity. 

Finally, 义. 义 (義,yì) is actually the reason this ENTIRE post came to be. 义 is the same 义 as  Yi City. I offer the traditional version of the character above so you can see how it compares to the stone on the way to Yi City. You will recall when WWX says Yi City, LWJ asks, “Yi, which means chivalrous?” And WWX explains same character but for coffin/mortuary in this case. 

Actually, 义 is used in a lot of words: 

正义- correct/rigit + 义 =  righteousness

意义 - ideal + 义 = meaning

侠义 - knight -errant + 义 = chivalry

义气 - 义 + air = personal loyalty; code of brotherhood

名义- name + 义 = nominal

义父 - 义 + father = sworn father (this is a difficult to translate idea that sometimes i translate as godfather for simplification and cultural parallelism. it’s a parent figure that you acknowledge via vows. If the character for father is replaced with brother, then it’s the relationship that the 3zun have. And OMG i want to talk about the 3zun and romance of 3 kingdoms and how much of a awful un-义 person JGY is… but also holy out of scope batman)

In the case of virtues/morality, we’re looking at 义气 - the 义 that means loyalty to people and a code of brotherhood. The Jiang Sect ancestor is described as a 游侠 (yóu xiá, wandering hero). The ancestor’s identity as a 侠 (xiá), which indicates a highly skilled martial artist/fighter who will defends others (à la wuXIA and xianXIA), places him within the world of 江湖 (jiāng hú, sometimes translated as rivers and lakes or “pugilistic world” in some wuxia subtitles). In 江湖, 义 is the most important virtue. Based on 义, you help those in need. You stand out and do what is right. You are an outlaw that follows a strict moral code. 义 is the foundation of the Jiang Sect’s motto. Furthermore, the idea of 义气 can in some ways be viewed as currency. You do me a favor, I owe you one. You treat me with decency, I return the favor. You DO NOT return kindness with ill intent. It is taboo. 

WWX exemplifies 义. 义 is part of what makes him so lovable and reckless. For 义 , he sticks out his neck for LWJ during Wen Summer Camp. For 义, he follows LWJ to search for the Yin Iron. Under 义 , he is free to be the hero who lends a hand whenever it’s needed. Oftentimes, 仁 and 义  go hand in hand because to stand up and stand out for other requires love of others and seeing their humanity. 

So let’s get back to the Wen remnants: for 义, WWX must protect WN and WQ. As I mentioned before, WN and WQ had done WWX and JC (and thus the Jiang Sect as a whole) MULTIPLE HUGE FAVORS. 1) saving JC from Wen Chao at Lotus Pier. 2) retrieving JFM and YZY’s bodies. 3) transferring the golden core against WQ’s best judgement. All of these actions are so vital to the survival or the reputation of the Jiang Sect. WWX knows it. I’m positive JC knows it.  To turn their backs on WN and WQ would be 不仁不义 (neither 仁 nor 义). Really, the ONLY thing they should be doing from the perspective of 义 is helping the Wens to repay their kindness. But WWX knows, as the head disciple, that JC cannot afford to align the Jiang Sect in sympathy with the Wens because it’s political suicide. The Jiang Sect WILL NOT SURVIVE if Nie, Jin, and Lan all turn against them. Even if Lan stood neutral, Nie and Jin would still be able to wipe out barely rebuilt Jiang. 

So what does WWX do? He has already painted himself as a rebel, as rude, as ill bred. And from an outsider looking in, WWX is in alignment with his slippery descend into darkness. WWX knows if he steps just a little more out of line, he can accomplish everything else his morality dictates. (We could talk about WHY WWX feels like it’s ok for him to give up everything and analyze WWX’s self worth and what not. But that’s also outside the scope of this post and i’m pretty sure other people have done a better job of it than I could.) 

Save the Wens, run away to the Burial Mounds, and defecting are all aligned with WWX’s morals. Defecting protects JC and the Jiangs sect in an act of loyalty (忠). Defecting also protects JC and JYL, thus fulfilling the filial piety toward YZY and JFM’s instructions (孝).  Saving the Wens returns the debt of 义 that JC and WWX owe to WN and WQ. Saving the Wens also appeal to WWX’s sense of 仁 towards the non-cultivators. Lastly, protecting the Wens means JC does not end up 不仁不义. From WWX’s perspective his actions are the only option for him to really have no regrets when he asks his heart. 

[somepinkthing]

@angstymdzsthoughts for your YZY ultimatum AU where the nie bros adopt Wei Ying after he’s been kicked out.

Part 1 of 2 because I hate myself

[Part 2]

---

Wei Ying wished he could at least say goodbye to Jiang Cheng and shijie.

“I am so sorry, A-Ying,” Jiang Fengmian said, looking as close to tears as his serene face had ever seemed to Wei Ying. It’d been a long week for him, to say the least.

“It’s alright!” Wei Ying chirped back, “I’ll be okay!”

Wei Ying had been ready for this, even if Jiang-shushu wasn’t. After Madam Yu had uttered that ultimatum for the whole of Lotus Pier to hear before storming off with both of the children she bore, what else could be done? Jianf Fengmian could stall as long as he wanted but he had his own children and a wife and a sect to think after--Wei Ying knew he couldn’t hold a candle to the real family he might end up costing his uncle. 

“If you need more money, say so,” Jiang-shushu said. Wei Ying jingled his completely packed wallet.

“I think you should take more food after all,” Jiang-shushu said, wringing his hands.

“You’ve packed me with all I could possibly manage to carry, “Wei Ying said with a laugh, “I’m going to be mugged the second I step foot out there! And qiankun pouches don’t make things lighter! Please spare me! Anything else and I’ll be crushed!”

Jiang-shushu huffed affectionately at him before falling back into silence. 

This mood was way too heavy for Wei Ying’s liking. Slowly, he reached down to fiddle with his Clarity Bell. It was the first present shijie had ever given him. Jiang Cheng had been so excited, bouncing up and down yelling at him to hurry up and open it. A sign that he was of Yunmeng, recognizable wherever he went.

Well, time to bite the bullet.

Wei Ying made to untie his bell but his uncle’s hands stopped him. 

“Keep it. That way, if there’s ever an emergency ...” Jiang-shushu trailed off at the end. Yu Ziyuan was a woman of her word. Even if it were an emergency, Wei Ying would never be welcome back, bell or no bell. They both knew that. 

“Just keep it. Please. It belongs to you,” Jiang-shushu whispered.

Wei Ying nodded and gave his uncle’s hands one last squeeze before stepping onto the boat that would take him from his (former) home. 

He looked back until there was nothing else to see.

—-

5 Months Later

“Sir? Are you alright?” a hesitant voice called out to him. Wei Ying looked up to find a rather attractive boy peering down at him. He had wide, harried looking eyes that reminded Wei Ying of the pheasants he used to hunt--they’d look around with those eyes right before running. Behind the young man was a carriage, the driver leaning forward and scowling. 

Ah. Wei Ying was in the way of the road then. 

“I apologize, young master,” Wei Ying said, standing up with a smile, “I’ll move out of the way!”

“I-It’s okay!” the other boy said, following Wei Ying to the side of the road and looking him up and down. “You-you’re not injured are you?”

Wei Ying shook his head. “I thank you for the concern, young master, but I just slipped on the ice a bit and decided to take a rest.”

“A rest? On the ground?” the boy asked, aghast.

“Yep! I slipped and hurt all over! The snow will comfort me and my bruises.”

The young man looked down at Wei Ying’s feet. “Yes, with shoes like that you would slip on the ice. You must not be from around here. You should really pick up some winter gear. I know a few good stores that could take you right away!”

“Would that I had the money to,” Wei Ying replied wryly before he could stop himself. This boy didn’t need to know how destitute he had let himself become. Turns out, no one wants the help of a child rogue cultivator, no matter how talented. He had thought that Qinghe might have some work for him, given their abundance of smaller demons crawling on the mountains, but he had been unprepared for the winter. But, again, this young master who traveled around in a carriage would hardly understand that. Probably the son of a wealthy merchant or something. He was a friendly one though, those were rare. 

The boy in front of him immediately looked uncomfortable, biting his lower lip and dropping his gaze.

“I-I’m sorry. I hadn’t meant to pry. Um, if you want…”

He was interrupted by the carriage driver.

“Young Master Nie, I am to bring you straight home. Your brother was very specific! We don’t have the time to be stopping for every peddler on the street!”

From a top disciple to a mere peddler. Oh, how the mighty fall. Wei Ying couldn’t even dispute it though, he thought to himself. He was a peddler now, wasn’t he? His pride and the rapidly dwindling supplies Jiang-shushu had packed him with was all that was stopping him from going back to begging and fighting for meals with dogs at this point.

“B-But!” the boy started to say but immediately retreated when he saw the driver roll his eyes at him.

Huh. Odd. You’d think that a carriage driver would show more respect to his master. Was this boy truly that easy to bully?

“Young Master Nie, get back in the carriage. We are late as it is,” the driver moaned, frustrated, “Do you want to be caught standing here when your brother comes to look for you?”

The boy pouted but immediately moved to acquiesce, shooting Wei Ying an apologetic smile. Apparently he was that easy. Or perhaps it was the threat of his brother.

Wait. 

Did that driver say Nie?

“My brother’s got better things to do. He’s not going to come looking. Don’t be so tense,” the boy said as he started to climb inside.

“Who’s not coming?” a clear, low voice sliced through the bustle of the town as a looming figure descended from the sky. Nie Mingjue’s boots hit the ground with a heavy thud. 

And this could only be Nie Mingjue, newly decorated with the paraphernalia that marked him as the teenage leader of Qinghe Nie. Madam Yu was always careful to keep Wei Ying with the other disciples at conferences so he had never met the infamous Nie Mingjue nor his brother in person, but his presence matched everything that Wei Ying had heard about him in the past. So then, that boy was…

“Huaisang, want to explain to me why you broke curfew?”

Ah. Nie Huaisang. His reputation preceded him too, Wei Ying thought as he watched Nie Huaisang cower from his brother’s line of questioning. 

“I took a little longer, that’s all…” he squeaked out.

Nie Mingjue scoffed. “A little longer? Is that what you call over three hours of my scouring for you? Do you think I don’t have anything better to do?!”

“Well then, go do them,” Huaisang muttered, defiant for but a few seconds before yelping pathetically when his brother marched forward and grabbed his ear. 

“You’re mouthy!” Nie Mingjue growled, “Do you know how many people I have out searching right now? You’ve been gone since this morning! I told you to be back by lunchtime and it’s after dinnertime now! The sun has gone completely down!”

“I get it! It won’t happen again! DaGe, let go of me!” Nie Huaisang whined, batting at his older brother’s hand. Nie Mingjue gave his ear one last hard twist before relinquishing his hold. 

“See to it that it doesn’t.”

Then, swiveling around to face the front of the carriage, Nie Mingjue’s face turned even more stern. He opened his mouth, presumably to yell at the driver. That’s when he saw Wei Ying. 

“Huaisang, who's the kid?”

“I didn’t have the chance to ask,” Huaisang muttered, pouting as he came up behind his brother. “He’s not from here, that’s all I know.”

“Yeah, I’d say,” Nie Mingjue snapped back, “Yunmeng Jiang’s Clarity Bells aren’t exactly given out on the streets of Qinghe.” 

Wei Ying’s hand immediately shot down to cover his bell. Nie Huaisang’s eyes whipped down to it before he could fully hide it from sight. His eyes widened and he stopped rubbing at his sore ear. 

“You are a disciple of Yunmeng Jiang?” Nie Huaisang asked, doubt coloring his voice. 

“I-I am not,” Wei Ying said. He could see the gears turning in the young master's head upon hearing his answer.

“Then…. Oh.” 

Awkward understanding and recognition settled on Nie Huaisang’s face. Wei Ying looked down. He didn’t want to see the pity that would be there. Yu Ziyuan leaving Jiang Fengmian until he tossed out his street rat was the gossip of a lifetime. There’s no way the story hadn’t reached Qinghe Nie. 

Suddenly, Nie Mingjue moved forward. In a few long strides, he stood before Wei Ying. He put his hands together into an upright salute.

“Qinghe Nie’s Nie Mingjue greets this young master,” Nie Mingjue said sharply, tone obviously hinting at the two boys to remember their manners.

“O-Oh! Qinghe Nie’s Nie Huaisang greets this young master,” Nie Huasiang greeted, following his brother’s example.

Wei Ying hesitated but even he wouldn’t dare refuse to greet a sect leader, especially after being greeted himself.

“Wei Ying greets Sect Leader Nie and young master Nie.” He sunk into a low salute. He used to be much more lax with them but with the way things were now, he could no longer afford to be so familiar with such high ranking cultivators. He was no longer anyone’s equal.

“You do not claim a sect?” Nie Mingjue rumbled, coking an eyebrow.

“I am… afraid the rumors are true. I am but a lone rogue cultivator now,” Wei Ying replied.

Nie Mingjue’s brow furrowed and he looked Wei Ying over.

“How old are you?”

“Wei Ying turns eleven this year.” The answer only deepened the frown on the young sect leader’s face.

“That’s too young to be a rogue cultivator, is it not?”

Well, everyone else and their moms sure believed it was. Hence why Wei Ying was so down on his cash. Wei Ying bit his tongue and refused to let his bitterness seep out. In truth, they were probably right.

“I am talented enough to be useful, sect leader,” Wei Ying replied. And he was. Youth aside, he already had his golden core mostly formed and he could fly on his sword for short bursts. He had soundly beaten Jiang Cheng in the sword fighting competition during the last discussion conference, taking first in his age group (Madam Yu had been livid and he had wished he hadn’t but the point stands). 

“Yes, I remember hearing that about you,” Nie Mingjue affirmed before turning to his brother.

“Do you have an extra coat in there, Huaisang?”

“I do! I’ll get it!” Nie Huaisang said eagerly, scrambling back into the carriage.

“Sect Leader Nie, you’re too kind! I don’t need—” Wei Ying stared to protest, but a heavy hand on his shoulder cut him off. Nie Mingjue’s hand was large and fully covered Wei Ying’s bony shoulder, squeezing lightly. It was… surprisingly nice. And warm.

“Work it off, if you like. I could use talent in my sect right now. Come show me what you can do and I’ll give you the chance to work for the shelter I’ll provide.” Nie Mingjue’s hand tightened on Wei Ying’s shoulder, but it didn’t feel like a threat. Despite the strength behind the grip, Wei Ying was reminded of when his shijie would hold his hand and speak to him gently. It was comforting.

Huaisang rushed out of the carriage with a fur cloak and some gloves. He handed the gloves to his brother so he could drape the cloak around Wei Ying’s shivering form.

“Are you going to come stay with us?” Nie Huaisang asked. He almost looked excited at the prospect. He pulled the cloak tighter around Wei Ying as he spoke and began to do the buttons before Nie Mingjue batted his hands away and told him to let Wei Ying dress himself.

“The disciples my age don’t come to the Unclean Realms to train often so it’d be nice to have a friend! And you must have so many stories from all your travels!” Nie Huaisang chirped, eyes twinkling at the idea of having someone to talk to that wasn’t his brother. 

“Well, kid?” Nie Mingjue asked as he handed Wei Ying the gloves. 

They were warm.

Wei Ying nodded.

---

tbc

[angstymdzsthoughts]

This is not quite as sad as it should, I think, but let's share just in case..

---

JFM loved his wife. He really did. And YZY knew it and reciprocated. She was still the fierce Violent Spider and he was still the calm and patient, quite docile, Sect Leader Jiang. They lived well and happy, as happy as they could be.

JFM had a sworn brother, his right hand and servant WCZ. This man had a wife he loved as well. They both were JFM's best friends. But everything was well. YZY wasn't jealous at all because she knew her husband loved her and to think that WCZ and CSSR could love anyone but each other was ridiculous. Same as JFM loving anyone but YZY. So everything was well. They were important for her husband and she could appreciate both friends's personalities. Calm, kind servant WCZ, loud, warm rough cultivator CSSR. Everything was fine.

When WWX was born, he was born as a servant. When he was raised, he was raised to serve, just as his father had been. He was a good kid, he was a good servant. JFM was kind enough and loved WCZ enough to never discourage his children's friendship with WWX. It was ok, he himself had took his own personal servant as his sworn brother and everything was fine. He was hoping that WWX would become the same for JC, after all. If there was someone he would trust his son with was the son of his best friend.

WWX had a loving family. His mother was loud and obnoxious and his father was proper and kind. He was loved, he truly was. And he loved them in kind.

CSSR was a free soul, tho. She had accepted to stay on LP for the born of her son but WWX was already old enough to walk on his own so she decided it was time for her to go. To travel. To meet the world and night-hunt around and help ppl.

WCZ knew this day would come. He knew his wife, he knew she couldn't stay on a single place for too long. She would feel caged otherwise and a free bird like her should never had their wings cut. She was made for the open skies.

But WZC had responsibilities, he was a Sect Leader's right hand, second in command. He couldn't just leave like that. So they made a deal, because they loved each other very much, so she could go explore the world for a few months and then come back to his husband and son's side, at least for a bit. Just so she could see WWX grow. Just so she could reunite with his husband and hug him and made him laugh. So everything was fine.

Tiny itty WWX would wait on the docks besides his father the day his mother was set to arrive, already old enough to try to be still and proper, as his servant status demanded, but still too young to hardly manage it, almost vibrating out of his skin at the mere thought he was gonna see his mother again that day, fidgeting anstily and giggling from time to time, always breaking property and running to the boat and onto his mother's strong embrace as soon as she was on sight. Everything was fine.

JC sometimes made him company in the waiting, specially when they got a bit older and JC could leave the main house more freely. He would feel a bit jealous at how carefree WWX can be and how loving and affectionate his mother was. He wanted his own parents to be as doting and caring as them, but a noble's property and status stop them to show excessive affection as much as they indeed loved him. But it was fine, CSSR was amazing and affectionate enough for both of them. She was funny and strong and amazing and would tell silly jokes she would loudly laugh at even if some weren't funny at all, and she could kill a bunch of monsters all on her own and she would sneak snacks and bring them trinkets and tokens and stories of her adventures, so it's ok. Some ppl are just that way. JC is lucky to have all he has in life.

So WWX is still young and he's waiting on the docks because his mother's last letter said she was arriving home as soon as her night-hunt was over which meant just two to three days and it was time now! And so he waited. All day long, until his father went to fetch him telling him that maybe tomorrow was the day and he had duties now. WWX waited the next day as well, duties be damned. But his mother didn't arrive. "Maybe she got delayed again," his father tells him. "She will probably arrive before her letter telling us as such as it always happens," because it's true, it's not the first time it happens. Everything is fine.

The next day she doesn't arrive. Nor the next one. Nor the next after that. Now even WCZ is worried. JFM approves of a search party leaded by his own right man. He would even go himself if his Sect Leader duties didn't call on him so near an important conference.

"I'll come back soon" WCZ tells his son. "With your mother in tow. I promise." WWX believes him. He has no reason to not do so anyway.

And so he waits. Days and nights. Waiting for her parents's boat to show itself on the horizon, to reach the dock and hug him, and kiss him, and almost crush his ribs with how strong CSSR's hugs are.

And so he waits and waits and waits until he can't wait anymore because he has "duties" and training and studies, like all of that mattered more than his parents arriving to him. So, as easily as breathing air, nothing was ok and anything was fine.

Part of me wants WCZ to be back with only a red ribbon, a bit torn, still bloody, to gift his son as the last token he would ever have of her mother. And another part of me just wants WWX to wait for parents that will never come back to him.

What I know for sure is that JC stopped wishing his parents were like WWX's.

Too bad Lotus Pier burned.

[youngandhungryent]

You Care: Kanye West Hits Wyoming Walmart With Damon Dash, Says Yeezy Talks “Billi Talk”

Source: Bennett Raglin/BET / Getty

Kanye West can say he doesn’t have friends, and his wife, looking out for him. Roc-a-fella Records founder Damon Dash was spotted making a Walmart run with Yeezy and his holding him down in Cody, Wyoming.

YZY TEAM pic.twitter.com/jdMZXvDoIr

— ye (@kanyewest) July 23, 2020

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According to The Sun, West hit the local Walmart to shop for kids clothing on Wednesday (July 22). One of the guys spotted out and about with Yeezy happened to be Dame Dash. If you know you’re Hip-Hop lore, Dash was one of the first people to believe that West could make it in the game as a rapper while many said he should just focus on production.

West was rocking a blue hoodie and ripped jeans, along with those adidas Yeezy foam runners. He also appears to have died his hair red. And since this was a Walmart trip, he was rocking a face mask in the store—not so much outside the store, though.

Dame Dash check up on friend Kanye today, and makes a Walmart run in Wyoming#kanyewest #damedash #kanye pic.twitter.com/ToGOpEktyL

— HIPHOP CROWN NATION® (@HHCNation) July 23, 2020

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Yesterday was a whirlwind, relatively, news day for West as Kim Kardashian released a statement supporting her husband even after he had accused her of having an affair with Meek Mill. The Philly rapper denied such a thing ever happened while Kardashian asked for privacy and compassion for having to deal with West’s bipolar disorder.

The New York Post spoke to Dash, who asserts that West isn’t “crazy” at all. “People think he lost his mind just because he cried. The way he lost his mind and jumped on a jet and then jumped off the jet to come back to his 40,000-acre ranch? Yeah, I’d like to lose my mind like that,” said Dash.

He added, “There’s definitely people around him that love him and he’s going to be all right. We are praying, we are working. People think like we are in an insane asylum [but] we got an album coming out.”

Denial isn’t going to help anyone, though. The truth is West had shown evidence of a manic episode due to his erratic behavior, and Twitter feed, and he was hospitalized for psychiatric care almost four years ago.

Nevertheless, Dash thinks West is just fine. He continued, “People watched the rally and think he’s crazy, but that’s how the average person thinks. Everyone that listens to him [who thinks] he’s crazy is not a billionaire. But some reason Elon Musk doesn’t think he’s crazy. I don’t think he’s crazy. Billionaires don’t think it’s crazy because he talks that billi talk. And most people don’t talk that talk. He speaks like the general to people that are generally soldiers.”

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We good

A post shared by Dame Dash (@duskopoppington) on Jul 22, 2020 at 1:51pm PDT

source https://hiphopwired.com/890336/you-care-kanye-west-hits-wyoming-walmart-with-damon-dash-says-yeezy-talks-billi-talk/

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