#but sam is really on a different level imo

[lol-jackles]

It's been a while since we talked about SPN. So I wanted to ask you what you think of this essay on Sam (if you have the patience to listen to it, it's about 20 minutes). For some things the author's opinions are legitimate but for others, in my opinion, they are not. Especially for the finale, on which I do not share this opinion at all. www*youtube*com/watch?v=xLCB4RhiP5A&t=4s

I'm not even going to add the link, which tells you what I think of Rachel's opinion. I only agree that season 4 was a bit of a misfire.

Three minutes into the video and I was already bored with her complaints over the "lack" Sam's autonomy and pov.  Her Dean blaming got old really fast. Yeah, Dean is unfair towards Sam but 1) that's what brothers do, and most importantly 2) that's what happens to main characters, they constantly get shitted on. One of the biggest reliefs in real life is realizing you're not the main character. In The X Files, Mulder is called a loser even by the freaks and rarely given grace. Nobody apparently trusts Bode in Fire Country despite saving lives. Xena was always getting reminded of her less stellar past in Warrior Princess.

Sam girls get mad when stuff from Sam’s past gets brought up because they think he’s being unfairly punished for it.  At least Sam’s past is valid enough to be mentioned.  Cas’s storyline gets the LOL treatment and Dean’s arcs are always getting dropped; his hell trauma, tenure as the torturer’s apprentice, Michael’s vessel, demon, MOC, all are dropped and largely forgotten.

Probably the only time the AAs and I are in agreement is Dean's pov means squat because Dean isn't being talked about by other characters. Dean and his pov mainly revolve around Sam. To quote a casual observer I found on tumblr: Sam gets the larger story arcs in the show and Dean gets more of the “silly and fun” filler episodes.

As for Sam's autonomy, my guess is she and I have differing views on the meaning of the word. IMO, autonomous characters often have these traits:

A tendency to resist authority (Sam rebelling against John, Dean, Lucifer, and Chuck)

High level of self-assuredness (Sam knows himself outside the hunting lifestyle)

A need for personal space and privacy (Sam is a private person and admits not sharing his deep personal issues with Dean)

A preference for independence in social situations (Sam is not a follower)

An innate desire for control and decision making power (Sam's life long issue, demon blood infection made it worse)

A desire to set and achieve individual goals and aspirations. (Sam's consistent endgame through the entire series)

A character with autonomy means they have ability to act independently and make decisions without being influenced by others. They have strong sense of self, able to think critically, are self-sufficient and able to take responsibility for their actions. Doesn't that last sentence sound like Sam Winchester to the tee?

Oh yeah I very much Disagree with her take on the series finale.  Sam didn't die a bitter old man, what the heck was Rachel watching??? Sam peacefully passed away in his house with his beloved son at his side. Sam's son was clearly a well adjusted young man with a happy childhood. Happy well adjusted offsprings don't come from bitter parents. Sam wasn't bitter, sad yes, but not bitter because he accomplished the goal he had since his own childhood: to have a normal life outside of hunting and raise his own family. Most SPN fans were happy or satisfied with the finale because the Winchester legacy lives on.

[bardicious]

It's crazy that the whole of Supernatural is putting the kindest, sanest, most loving individual in the position of an antichrist, and then for years putting him through hell, and literal hell. Makes sense that the original god of that universe was a cruel, pathetic clown.

[isycamor]

i do kind of have mixed feelings about the armand reveal i will not lie. but at the same time, I think we forget that we still do not have all the information (lestat’s pov, and armand’s unfiltered pov of the trial, maybe even sam’s pov loool). also i don’t think this was particularly ooc nor do i think that it flattens armand’s character.

one,i think him doing this is completely in line with what we have seen from his character thus far. at this point (ep4/6 in paris) imo it is clear that he is feeling unloved/rejected on some level by louis [dreamstat haunting their relationship was the proverbial shoe waiting to drop; there was always a lingering feeling of inadequacy armand was feeling in his relationship with louis and considering his history (his trauma) we know how deeply this would affect him]. madeleine semi-confirms that there’s a sort of wall in the vulnerability of the loumand relationship when she asks louis why he doesn’t tell armand he loves him. armand is a character that desperately wants to be wanted, is desperately insecure, and on top of that, like assad said in an interview, very forward thinking. i think he really did not think his relationship with louis would survive — not with the burden of lestat, the burden of claudia/madeleine, and honestly i think it was coupled with a lot of self-hatred. the coven was a far more reliable decision for him. louis, throughout their relationship, was not a very consistent partner if we’re being honest (and i say this as a ldpdl apologist every tongue that rises against louis shall fall unless in defense of claudia). he refused to join the coven, he was constantly haunted by lestat in vital moments of loumand relationship development, he and armand were on verryyy different wavelengths about the labeling of their relationship, madeleine’s turning in itself i think also put a major strain in their relationship, etc. i don’t say this to excuse armand, but to contextualize his feeling of isolation within the relationship.

and thinking about his history, his trauma, i really do think that he would latch onto whatever seems to be the most consistent. he yearns for that commitment, and to feel wanted; and if he was not feeling that with louis, he would make the decision to stay with the coven. years upon years of abuse, and having that abuse be tied with a twisted sense of worship with marius, I believe has stunted armand significantly. armand is cunning, manipulative, whatever, but he really does not like being a leader. he leans into subservient positions constantly, and i think this is a pattern of learned helplessness that would explain why he perhaps may have felt as though he “could not prevent it” wrt the trial. i think him honestly believing he could not prevent it and also directing the whole thing are not really mutually exclusive here.

i don’t think this diminishes his love for louis at all either, he loved louis before during and after the trial, and the trial’s preparation. this was done in response to feeling unloved by him, not in response to not loving him. and i think, at least within the show’s presented narrative thus far, witnessing the actual trial along with lestat’s action versus his own inaction at its conclusion perhaps really put his guilt and regret into perspective which led to him saving louis from the wet room. and after finding a way to be with louis again (claiming to have saved him), and having louis speak to his commitment to him (even if it was done as a way to torture lestat), made armand solely focused on preserving his relationship with louis in any way possible - and unfortunately that meant also preserving this big lie. armand isn’t some supervillain that secretly wants louis dead - he did genuinely spend his life trying to make up for it. he is desperately desperately lonely and he has lived centuries feeling inadequate and unloved. this deep deep insecurity and attachment to preserve feeling loved/wanted drives his actions in paris, in san francisco, and in dubai.

so no! i don’t think it reverses any development of his character at all! honestly, apart from delainey’s claudia, armand was my shining star of season 2. assad played him brilliantly, and i don’t think this finale diminished the complexity assad (and the writers) gave to this character at all.

(i also think having this revealed and what this will do to armand’s psyche (as a character who i think is really really afraid to look inward) is such fun setup for season 3)

[anghraine]

Hi! Can you explain what really the power of foresight was with Faramir? I read the books earlier this year and I don't really quite understand it. He could predict the future? Like he would see it in his dreams? But how did he found out from Gollum that he was taking frodo and sam to cirith ungol and that he had committed murder before?

No problem, it's one of my favorite topics!

The concise explanation: I think Faramir's foresight/aftersight in terms of visions is a largely separate "power" from his ability to bring his strength of mind and will to bear on other people and animals, and to resist outside influence. The visions seem more a matter of broad sensitivity, something Faramir doesn't appear to have much if any control over. The second power is (in our terms) essentially a form of direct telepathy, limited in some ways but still very powerful, and I think this second ability is what Faramir is using with Gollum.

The really long version:

In my opinion, Faramir (or Denethor, Aragorn, etc) doesn't necessarily read thoughts like a book, particularly not with a mind as resistant as Gollum's. Faramir describes Gollum's mind in particular as dark and closed, it seems unusually so—

"There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them," said Faramir.

Still, Gollum is unable to entirely block Faramir's abilities. In LOTR, it does not seem that Gollum can fully block powerful mental abilities such as Faramir's, though his toughness and hostility does limit what Faramir can see. (Unfinished Tales, incidentally, suggests iirc that Denethor's combination of "great mental powers" and his right to use the Anor-stone allowed him to telepathically get the better of Saruman through their palantíri, a similar but greater feat.) I imagine that this is roughly similar to, but scaled down from, Galadriel's telepathic inquiries of even someone as reluctant to have her in his mind as Boromir, given that Faramir is able to still see some things in Gollum's mind, if with more difficulty than usual.

(WRT Boromir ... ngl, if I was the human buffer between Denethor and Faramir, I would also not be thrilled about sudden telepathic intrusions from basically anyone, much less someone I had little reason to trust.)

Disclaimer: a few years after LOTR's publication, Tolkien tried to systematize how this vague mystical telepathy stuff really works. One idea he had among many, iirc, was that no unwilling person's mind could be "read" the ways that Gollum's is throughout LOTR. IMO that can't really be reconciled w/ numerous significant interactions in LOTR where resistance to mental intrusion or domination is clearly variable between individuals and affected by personal qualities like strength of will, basic resilience, the effort put into opposition, supernatural powers, etc. And these attempts at resistance are unsuccessful or only partially successful on many occasions in LOTR (the Mouth of Sauron, for one example, is a Númenórean sorcerer in the book who can't really contend with Aragorn on a telepathic level). So I, personally, tend to avoid using the terminology and rationales from that later systematized explanation when discussing LOTR. And in general, I think Tolkien's later attempts to convert the mystical, mysterious wonder of Middle-earth into something more "hard magic" or even scientific was a failed idea on a par with Teleporno. Others differ!

In any case, when Gollum "unwillingly" looks at Faramir while being questioned, the creepy light drains from his eyes and he shrinks back while Faramir concludes he's being honest on that specific occasion. Gollum experiences physical pain when he does try to lie to Faramir—

"It is called Cirith Ungol." Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. "Is not that its name?" said Faramir turning to him. "No!" said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him.

I don't think this is a deliberate punishment from Faramir—that wouldn't be like him at all—and I don't think it's the Ring, but simply a natural consequence of what Faramir is. Later, Gandalf says of Faramir's father:

"He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men ... It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."

So, IMO, Faramir's quick realization that Gollum is a murderer doesn't come from any vision of the future or past involving Gollum—that is, it's not a deduction from some event he's seen. Faramir does not literally foresee Gollum's trick at Cirith Ungol. His warning would be more specific in that case, I think. What he sees seems to be less detailed but more direct and, well, mystical. Faramir likely doesn't know who exactly Gollum murdered or why or what any of the circumstances were. Rather, Gollum's murderousness and malice are visible conditions of his soul to Faramir's sight. Faramir doesn't foresee the particulars of Gollum's betrayal—but he can see in Gollum's mind that he is keeping something back. Faramir says of Gollum:

"I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceived clearly in his mind."

Meanwhile, in a letter written shortly before the publication of LOTR, Tolkien said of Faramir's ancestors:

They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves

So these abilities aren't that strange in that context. Faramir by chance (or "chance") is, like his father, almost purely an ancient Númenórean type despite living millennia after the destruction of Númenor (that destruction is the main reason "Númenóreanness" is fading throughout the age Faramir lives in). Even less ultra-Númenórean members of Denethor's family are still consistently inheriting characteristics from their distant ancestor Elros, Elrond's brother, while Faramir and Denethor independently strike Sam and Pippin as peculiarly akin to Gandalf, a literal Maia like their ancestress Melian:

“Ah well, sir,” said Sam, “you [Faramir] said my master had an elvish air; and that was good and true. But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of—well, Gandalf, of wizards.”

He [Denethor] turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.

Meanwhile, Faramir's mother's family is believed to be part Elvish, a belief immediately confirmed when Legolas meets Faramir's maternal uncle:

At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. "Hail, lord!" he [Legolas] said. "It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water."

In addition to that, Faramir's men believe he's under some specific personal blessing or charm as well as the Númenórean/Elvish/Maia throwback qualities. It's also mentioned by different groups of soldiers that Faramir can exercise some power of command over animals as well as people. Beregond describes Faramir getting his horse to run towards five Nazgûl in real time:

"They will make the Gate. No! the horses are running mad. Look! the men are thrown; they are running on foot. No, one is still up, but he rides back to the others. That will be the Captain [Faramir]: he can master both beasts and men."

Then, during the later retreat of Faramir's men across the Pelennor:

At last, less than a mile from the City, a more ordered mass of men came into view, marching not running, still holding together. The watchers held their breath. "Faramir must be there," they said. "He can govern man and beast."

Tolkien said of the ancient Númenóreans:

But nearly all women could ride horses, treating them honourably, and housing them more nobly than any other of their domestic animals. The stables of a great man were often as large and as fair to look upon as his own house. Both men and women rode horses for pleasure … and in ceremony of state both men and women of rank, even queens, would ride, on horseback amid their escorts or retinues … The Númenóreans trained their horses to hear and understand calls (by voice or whistling) from great distances; and also, where there was great love between men or women and their favorite steeds, they could (or so it is said in ancient tales) summon them at need by their thought alone. So it was also with their dogs.

Likely the same Númenórean abilities were used for evil by Queen Berúthiel against her cats. In an interview with Daphne Castell, Tolkien said:

She [Berúthiel] was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about—you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I’m afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them—trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them.

The more formal version of the Berúthiel lore recurs in Unfinished Tales:

She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things "that men wish most to keep hidden," setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them.

Faramir, by contrast, has a strong aversion to harming/killing animals for any reason other than genuine need, but apparently quite similar basic abilities. He typically uses these abilities to try to compassionately understand other people or gather necessary information, rather than for domination or provoking fear. Even so, Faramir does seem to use his mental powers pretty much all the time with no attempt to conceal what he's doing—he says some pretty outlandish things to Frodo and Sam as if they're very ordinary, but it doesn't seem that most people he knows can do all these things. This stuff is ordinary to him because it flows out of his fundamental being, not because it's common.

It's not clear how much fine control he has, interestingly. This is more headcanon perhaps, but I don't feel like it's completely under his control, even while it's much more controlled than things like Faramir's vision of Boromir's funeral boat, his frequent, repeated dreams of Númenor's destruction, the Ring riddle dream he received multiple times, or even his suspiciously specific "guess" of what passed between Galadriel and Boromir in Lothlórien. Yet his more everyday mental powers do seem to involve some measure of deliberate effort in a lot of the instances we see, given the differing degrees of difficulty and strain we see with the powers he and Denethor exhibit more frequently and consistently.

This is is also interesting wrt Éowyn, because Tolkien describes Faramir's perception of her as "clear sight" (which I suspect is just Tolkien's preferred parlance for "clairvoyance"). Faramir perceives a lot more of what's going on with Éowyn than I think he had materially observable evidence for—but does not see everything that's going on with her by any means. He seems to understand basically everything about her feelings for Aragorn, more than Éowyn herself does, but does not know if she loves him [Faramir].

I'm guessing that it's more difficult to "see" this way when it's directly personal (one of the tragedies of his and Denethor's relationship is that their shared mental powers do not enable either to realize how much they love each other). But it also doesn't seem like he's trying to overcome Éowyn's mental resistance the way he was with Gollum, and possibly Frodo and Sam—he does handle it a bit differently when it's not a matter of critical military urgency. With Éowyn, he sees what his abilities make clear to him, is interested enough to seek out Merry (and also perceive more than Merry says, because Faramir has never been a normal person one day in his life) but doesn't seem to really push either of them.

So I tend to imagine that with someone like Faramir, Denethor, Aragorn etc, we're usually seeing a relatively passive, natural form of low-grade telepathy that simply derives from their fundamental nature and personalities (as we see in Faramir with Éowyn, possibly Faramir with Aragorn). That can be kicked up to more powerful, forceful telepathy via active exertion of the will (as described by Gandalf wrt Denethor's ability to "bend[] his will thither" to see what passes in others' minds, and seen with Faramir vs Gollum, Aragorn vs the Mouth of Sauron, more subtly Faramir vs Denethor). At a high point of strain this can be done very aggressively or defensively (Denethor vs Gandalf, Denethor vs Saruman, Denethor vs Sauron seriously is there a Maia that man won't fight, Faramir vs the Black Breath given his completely unique symptoms that Aragorn attributes to his "staunch will", possibly Aragorn vs the Black Breath in a healing capacity...).

Anyway, I hope these massive walls of text are helpful or interesting! Thanks for the ask :)

[scoobydoodean]

speaking of your "15.20 is like a punishment for Sam" idea, I've thought that Dean's death, Sam living on, etc. was supposed to echo the season 3 finale, except with a sort of remixing of Sam & Dean's roles.

imo it was only a few minutes that Dean was in heaven without Sam, because Bobby says time works differently in heaven ("Time up here, it's… it's different. You got everything you could ever want… or need or… dream.") in what seems like a deliberate echo of Dean's line around his time in hell ("It was four months up here, but down there… I don't know. Time's different.") so: in 3.16, Sam isn't able to save Dean, Dean dies & goes to hell, Sam goes on his revenge quest vs. 15.20 Sam isn't able to save Dean, Dean dies & goes to heaven, Sam lives a 'normal' life until he dies & reunites w/ Dean. Dean spends 40 years in hell, Sam 4 months on earth; Dean spends a few minutes (say 4) in heaven, Sam spend ~40 years on earth/in metaphorical 'hell' or at least in grief before finally reuniting w/ Dean. as you say, all the people Sam is closest to die/leave and he just has to live on for decades after. he does get his 'reward' in going to heaven and reuniting with Dean and everybody else, but still!

(on a writing level, it feels revealing to me that the writers didn't go with a remix of season 3's original ending, of Sam being able to save Dean. because the actual season 3 ending didn't happen naturally but because of real-world setbacks. yeah yeah Dean dying & Sam carrying on it fits with the show's focus on how people deal with death and death's inevitability, but... idk, there's something about it that just feels off to me. can't explain it logically though.)

Yeah that's one of the other Big Things for me about the ending of Supernatural is that it presents Sam as a failure who tried over and over to save his brother but always failed. He wanted to save Dean in season 3 and failed repeatedly and it ripped him apart. He deluded himself into thinking (to an extent) that he was saving Dean somehow in season 4 (see: 4.12 and 4.18) but he epically failed. Season 5 was supposed to culminate in some sort of redemption in a way, but then Sam came back soulless and harmed Dean. Then in 8.14, he promised to save Dean from his suicidal thoughts, but then became suicidal himself, tried to kill himself, blamed Dean for not Sam not killing himself, and then Dean did something reckless (take on the Mark of Cain) as a build up to literal years of depression and then again at the end of season 9, culminating in his death (and Sam was trying to be there but Dean got stabbed through the heart anyway). Then Sam makes a series of incredibly morally dubious plays to save Dean in season 10 but unleashes the darkness at the same time, which again—culminates in Dean needing to die to save the world at the end of season 11 (with a brief stint where Sam tries to take on the Mark of Cain but fails). Then Dean succeeds in stopping the world from ending all on his own, and comes to save Sam from the BMoL. Then Dean agrees to be possessed by AU Michael to save Sam and Jack. Then Dean makes the box plan and Sam insists Dean not get in the Mal-ak box and that he trust Sam to fix all of this. Then they don't actually fucking fix it. It all blows up in their faces and causes a chain reaction like so many dominos toppled over.

And over all of that time... Sam also has a fixation on trust. He wants Dean to trust him so bad, but Sam never actually succeeds at the things he promises/wants and tries to get Dean to believe he can do so bad (without dire consequences). And I don't think Dean resents Sam for that, and I really don't actually think he distrusts Sam either in the late series. But I think it weighs on Sam and that's part of why he has a fixation on trust to begin with that he can never really let go of. All that to say... if I had to summarize the "brothers" storyline, it culminates in Sam failing at the number one thing he wanted to accomplish most: save Dean from a young and bloody death. And the fact that the majority of the people who claim to love Sam and Dean's brotherhood more than anything celebrate that as poetic disgusts me, because there is nothing poetic about it at all. It's meaningless garbage that makes Sam look like an utter failure who is being punished.

[velvetvexations]

I understand the instinct behind it to a degree but it really does worry me how fast people in progressive spaces are willing to buy into conspiracy level thinking about there being shadowy groups of transphobes plotting to freeze other trans people out or like, that every big news story or movie/tv/book release is planned to distract us from Sudan or Gaza, cuz like quite often things are just coincidences? The most insidious thing about systemic oppression is that it's so self-sufficient it doesn't NEED people to conspire to fuck over xyz demographic, it just does that on it's own. The instant you buy in to conspiratorial thinking you're in danger, and that includes painting a large group of queer creators as active, intentional transmisognists who should be shunned forever and ignoring the realistic read which is that it's clearly an unfortunate coincidence that can be fixed! It's the whole "if the building was designed to be inaccessible even if everyone working there loves disabled people the building is still inaccessible" thing, for a lot of reasons not a lot of trans and queer people end up even in the line to possibly be front and center in a show or two, and Dropout is clearly working to change that and include queer people, but it's slow going and the system is stacked against trans people and no one is perfect and Dropout is also still a VERY small company all things considered trying to build themselves up from almost nothing, they need support so they can offer space to more trans people and transfems! Like what good does spreading a bullshit rumor about the main cast all being closet raging transmisognists do aside from tear down one of the only queer platforms we have??

When College Humor got bought by Sam they could only afford like ONE employee, do we want to have to wait years and years and years for another new platform to arise that has the money and power to represent us?? I'd rather uplift and push to be better a platform that is run by queer people who want to do better for all of us even if they don't always succeeded than sit here begging Disney to acknowledge that we exist while spreading horrid rumors about every legit queer creator who wants to platform us secretly being a huge bigot in disguise.

It's so awful, I hate how every time someone works their ass off to make a fucking difference for queer people all the terminally online progressive queers have to rip them to shreds for not being 100% perfect in every way until we have nothing but sanitized corporate overlords who don't think we deserve to be on screen at all. Every progressive queer creator gets put through this eventually and I'm so sick of it. The Vlogbrothers, The McElroy Family, Nightvale Presents, She-ra, Steven Universe, Chappell Roan, Becky Albertalli, it KEEPS happening!! And we will never get anywhere if the slightest misstep or honest unfortunate coincidence is enough to deem the only people who are trying to represent us, many of which ARE us, as irredeemable bigots who should be crucified in the town square.

Imo this is just a massive case of people always falling for conspiratorial thinking out of a refusal to actually understand how systemic bigotry works in favor of the "everyone is always secretly intentionally conspiring against us" lie and refusing to give queer creators/allies ANY grace or room for error or the benefit of the doubt because like. I guess destroying other queer people and our allies is what some of us do best. The fact that it's only ever queer people and allies who get this treatment makes me sick. We can't let ourselves have anything, it's perfect or it's evil. What the fuck is even the point of queer rep anymore if all of it is going to get treated like this eventually?

.

[bonzos-number-1-fan]

TMAGP 21 Thoughts: Y2K [Error]s

And we're back, again. Albeit I'm back quite late. This one was an interesting one to start act 3 with. On one hand it's a really good recap for what's lead up to this and a great foundation of what we can presume is to come. On the other hand it's an episode I think is deceptively devoid of new information. There is obviously new stuff to dig into here but in general I think it's not a lot of major stuff and mostly reinforcements of stuff we're already well aware of, or confirmation of stuff that I feel was about as good as confirmed anyway. With that said, this will be quite a read because what there is to dig into does go pretty deep.

Spoilers for episode 21 below the cut.

The conversation with Sam and Celia has a couple of interesting bits in it. Some of it's fairly obvious but there is at least one thing I've not really seen people talk about with it. So, Sam is flirting with the idea of of quitting, which is very Sam, and Celia pushes for him not to and tries to get him back "on track" in regards to the Institute, which is very Celia. Celia does care about her co-workers but obviously she's out for herself more than anyone else in the office. Her "complicated immigration status" is another is a long series of alternate-universe references. I think her comment about the OIAR's lax background checks is a more compelling detail there. Presumably there is a TMP version of Celia, who may or may not be called Celia. So you wouldn't necessarily expect there to be an issue there. "Celia" Ripley does likely exist and is likely British and would likely qualify for a position in the OIAR. Yet the way Celia frames it suggests she thought it would be an issue too. Either something that might come up after she got the job or something to be solved in order to get it. What I think is interesting about that is that it suggests to me that her identity isn't the problem but that they'd have some way to tell she's not from this universe.

That's all pretty normal stuff for this show though. The most interesting part of this is Celia's statement that she has to stay because he can't take Jack back to wherever she came from. I've seen a lot of musings on it but nothing that's gotten to what I feel is the heart of the problem there. Jack can't come with her because Jack is a baby and so can't understand and then engage with the mechanism she used. Which basically confirms that however she did it is much close to Darrien's meditation-induced-travel than, say, a portal to walk through. She doesn't rule out that she couldn't go back either so however it works it would have to be something Jack would have to participate in. Although there is the possibility that she's currently sharing her body with the actual TMP Celia and has merely brought her consciousness over and that Jack can't go because there is no body to return to. The problem with that though is the aforementioned background check. If she was physically living as TMP's Celia then there isn't really a concern there at all. Along with Lady M being about to smell that she's different it probably rules that out. Not a strong confirmation but certainly more pointing in the direction that Celia's body is hers which in turns makes the issue with Jack less likely to be that there is no Jack in Celia's home universe to body hop into.

Okay, so on to the incident proper. Honestly, not a huge amount to dig into this one IMO. Obviously a fair bit happened but it's mostly surface level. Which isn't a bad thing but for the sorts of things I tend to talk about it does limit what there is to say. I'd rather not recount things unless I have something to say about them beyond the text itself. There are still a few things to mention here all the same. Firstly, speaking of Darrien the Dr Welling that is mentioned in the episode is very likely the person who gave their name to Welling Mutare Materia where Darrien was incarcerated in episode 17.

Next up, while it's not talked about in explicit detail there is one thing that sums up the point of this ritual, the "Great Work". Anyone into alchemy will be well aware that this refers the creation of the Philosopher's Stone, the Magnum Opus. Immortality, turning lead to gold, spiritual enlightenment, all of the above. Ask 5 alchemists what it's about, get 6 answers. There are some pretty major implications to this that I've not really seen touched upon. Firstly, it's a near direct confirmation that the OIAR and the Magnus Institute are directly adversarial. If the Institute's goal is the completion of the Great Work then the OIAR's purpose is to prevent that and it's something they. mostly, openly broadcast. The symbol of the Magnum Opus is circle housed in a square, housed in a triangle, that is housed in another circle. That symbol is found in the OIAR's insignia but inverted. Which is about as blatant a statement of opposition as you can really get. In turn that also largely confirms that the OIAR are responsible, or at least wanted to, burn the Institute to the ground. The timing of this is very likely not a coincidence either. This letter is dated 04/01/1999, the dome they're referring to in it (the O2, formerly the Millennium Dome) was opened 31/12/1999, as you might expect. The Institute burned down just 7 days prior to that happening.

Secondly, knowing that the Great Work is pretty obviously the goal at this point recontextualises things like catalysts and agents. As well as the general purpose of the Institute as a whole here. The Great Work isn't generally seen as a bad thing in alchemy, like, it's the whole point of the art. It also doesn't seem like the Institute itself is necessarily perverting that idea either. The PoV character is certainly not happy with the idea that this ritual will harness fear and despair is too great of a quantity. So it doesn't seem out and out capital E Evil as a plan. At least as presented. However, there is

Next up, the Millennium Dome itself has a few interesting elements to talk about in this context. The most obvious one is the Millennium Experience which was a kind of its whole thing for its first year. This was an exhibition of all sorts of bits but of relevance is that the exhibition has split into three major themes; Who We Are, What We Do, and Where We Live. 3 is a fairly major number in alchemy thanks to the tria prima. They're divided further still and Who We Are splits into Body, Faith, Mind, and Self-Portrait. These have some loose alignment with the tria prima, the body, the soul, and the spirit. This is something other people have brought up though and it's not actually the thing I think is exciting about the Millennium Dome. Especially not in context to the episode. The dome is important as an architectural work first and foremost. Everyone should go have a look at it because its major feature is incredibly relevant to the Great Work, this episode's details, and the show's explicit references. The feature of the Millennium Dome are its twelve 100 meter support towers. IRL the 12 towers were chosen mostly because of the strong associations with time, both hours and months, but in this episode a lot of weight is given to the astrological and there are 12 signs in the zodiac. But 12 is also incredibly important for the Great Work too. Typically there are 4 stages that you must take to complete the magnum opus but these stages were expanded upon by various scholars. 12 is a number multiple sources land on. 12 is especially relevant for TMP because it's what's laid out in The Compound of Alchemy; or, the Twelve Gates leading to the Discovery of the Philosopher's Stone, written by George Ripley in 1471. Ripley is a very noted alchemist and importantly Celia is his namesake. It really just ticks a whole lots of boxes for "big important thing" in a show like this.

As a final note on the Great Work its presentation as a universal transmutation is quite a shift from more traditional interpretations. As mentioned it's a bit all over the place as for what it means but this incident seems to portray it as something akin to The Change in scale. Universal and far-reaching. It's hard to say too much more than that based on this episode alone but it's worth keeping an ear out for in the future. Even if this version of it is benevolent I can see why something of that scale got them firebombed.

Also, is it just me or does Chester sound much more roboty to start here than in other incidents?

After the incident it's Alice and Lena having a bit of a chat. Alice in this scene is a little peculiar to me, she's very quick to accept that Sam is correct about being lead to a conclusion by Freddy. Although I'm not sure how that reflects on her stance in the last episode. She was obviously trying to protect Sam but it didn't seem like she was lying about not believing his whole conspiracy there either. In this scene though she's pretty sold on the idea. Lena having a heart is nice to see too. I like that she's opening up a little more and is subverting some of the expectations of her assumed archetype.

Gwen and Ink5oul's section is pretty self-explanatory IMO. At least as far as those two characters go. Ink5oul's powers are progressing and she's now able to control mundane tattoos she had no part in producing but beyond that it's pretty expected stuff. Obviously the real standout here is [Error]. Firstly it's a confirmation that they're the one compelling people to spit out statements. Not that I think that confirmation is much of a reveal. There are a few bigger details to pick at here though. They've seemingly marked the whole gang for some reason. If the above is correct, and the OIAR is directly opposed to the Institute, it could just be revenge. Albeit that labours under the assumption [Error] has some sort of allegiance to the Institute. Which I think isn't entirely certain at this stage. The way the transcript describes them is also very perculiar.

A Figure emerges, shrouded in a cloak of whispers. … The Figure continues to emerge, a nightmarish specter of an older world, slowly enveloping Ink5oul’s brash bravado … The Figure breathes deeply, a strange and disconcerting sound, enveloped in pained whispers.

They're three details worth mentioning there. The first is their almost ephemeral description, they emerge and then continue to emerge. Which is a strange phrasing if they were just walking into the scene. The whispers I think are fairly obviously the statements they force on people, not much to say there. "Ink5oul’s brash bravado" speaks to what I was discussing in last episode's post. Ink5oul seems to be fairly inauthentic in a lot of their interactions and are putting on a persona to seem like they're more of a badass than they really are. Outside of that there is just this to mention.

The tape recorder bites Ink5oul before clicking off.

I've seen it brought up a lot and I get why, it is quite funny, but I think it's also speaking to a larger thing. [Error] appears to have much greater control of these than we might be familiar with. I'm not going to get into TMA spoilers but [Error] seems to be conjuring, and commanding, these things themselves which is a very different vibe. I think they might serve a similar purpose overall, the gathering of statements, but more purposeful and I could also see them being [Error]'s physical tether to the world. If they are as ephemeral as the transcript hints at the tape records might serve as their anchor. It's something they can move about but it might be their vulnerability.

------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Incident/CAT#R#DPHW Master Sheet and Terminology Sheet

DPHW Theory: 4254 seems about right but it's also such a weird one that it's hard to really quantify. It doesn't strike me as wrong in any way but the focus of the incident was not on the, well, incident. So it's hard to say.

CAT# Theory: CAT2 is a 2 and I don't have a huge amount to say on these as of yet.

R# Theory: BC seems right. It's what the last letter about spooky shit was rated and this seems to hit all the same notes I mentioned in the ep 19 post.

Header talk: Architecture (Landmark) -/- Corruption (Entropy) is another of those strange ones. Our third in a row. Which likely means they're here to stay, and while that's generally fine by me it does make me wonder what the diegetic reasoning is here. It's a pretty sudden shift to just do this now and it never come up before this. It's also not something mentioned as new either. Corruption (Entropy) is fairly interesting though. It makes sense for the incident but it feels like you could've just done "time" here for the same effect.

[utilitycaster]

Hope I can phrase this in a way that makes sense but—

What well-known actual-play cast member is your favorite for each of the core D&D class? Not necessarily a specific characters, but I’m interested in which players you think brings the most to each class.

This is a very interesting question! It's a hard one to answer for some classes and very easy for others so bear with me; also there are a couple where I could not pick just one.

I'm sticking to the PHB 12 for, as you said, core classes:

Barbarian: While Travis did give us "I would like to rage," I think Ashley and Taliesin get to share this one for me. I think they both really explore what rage means to someone and while I love a good "I'm a tank because I can take the hits and that's what I do and what I'm good at" story, I also think Yasha's messy relationship with her feelings of guilt and grief, and Ashton's chronic pain, are both incredible ways to play with the barbarian archetype.

Bard: much easier. Sam Riegel and Krystina Arielle. I'm a sucker for someone who actually sings even as I don't think you have to (and have played bard without doing so). It's both clearly a class they each love dearly and it shows, and they're incredibly musically talented performers to boot.

Cleric: Lou Wilson. Especially since I didn't like Fantasy High season 1 Fabian until the end of the season Kingston blew me away. I would love to see him explore cleric again, though it's exciting to see him as a paladin on WBN.

Druid: Emily Axford as Moonshine. Emily as a rule understands D&D classes very well anyway, but I think the culture of the crick and the ways that Moonshine must grow as a character while being a druid take it to the next level. (Also I prefer a caster-heavy druid to a shapechanger-heavy one; that's just me).

Fighter: Back to NADDPod because literally who could I say other than Jake Hurwitz, the man who only plays fighters. People who are new to D&D when they start actual play can be hit or miss imo; some pick it up and some lean harder on being showy to make up for it and it doesn't play well for me personally, but Jake is the greatest hit.

Monk: Marisha Ray; Beau is just generally a great character, and I think Marisha's own experience with martial arts informs the way she plays her; monks can be kind of repetitive in combat even with strong players and she manages to avoid this through her description.

Paladin: This is actually super hard because people don't play straight paladin a lot. This is incorrect of them, but it is an intense class. I think Luis Carazo and Zac Oyama are like...the duality of paladin (and indeed, redemption paladin). The tragedy and the comedy.

Ranger: Laura Bailey, natch; it's funny because Vex is in many ways not the archetypal ranger due to having high charisma, but she is simply my favorite and that's that on that. Sorry the mechanics were so bad; I would love to see more rangers in D&D even though Vex will be hard to dethrone. I promise Tasha's fixed them!

Rogue: I think I'm actually going Murph on this one. I like when rogues are more of the detective/spy type than the assassin/criminal type [obligatory "of course that's what you'd say you stupid paladin stan"] and inquisitive and arcane trickster are probably my two top rogue classes so Riz it is.

Sorcerer: I do consider PF1e cheating here because it's technically a different system that also imo addresses a lot of the weaknesses of sorcerer/makes it way better, but Bryn Monroe of RQG did play a great sorcerer. In D&D? Giving Emily Axford a second spot here for Saccharina. I'm going to talk about this for warlock, but I think sorcerer is a class you don't have to justify but if you don't it's a little unsatisfying. Sorcerer really shines in the Crown of Candy setting, and metamagic often doesn't live up to its reputation but Emily makes it work for her.

Warlock: Travis Willingham. I think there are classes that are kind of self-explanatory, for lack of a better term; you can play a fighter or rogue or even a bard or druid without going super deep into why the character is this class and still be an incredible character (though a good backstory never hurts). But there are others where you really need to be engaging with the class at all times to make it work, and warlock is one of them, and Fjord explores the warlock pact and what it means like few others.

Wizard: Aabria Iyengar. NO ONE gets wizard hubris as a player like Aabria. Knowledge is power and boy do wizards love knowledge. I especially like that most people in 5e play wizards as genuine adventurers because it feels very easy to play them as old guy in robes swept up in events beyond them; Aabria plays wizards who are combat ready with the humanity and backstory to make the difficult decisions sympathetic and meaningful, and I think that's how you have to play it.

Note: I want to specifically call out Liam O'Brien and Siobhan Thompson as "people I trust in basically any class or system and just didn't happen to hit a favorite here due to sky-high competition/personal preferences". They are both very close seconds for wizard.

[anneapocalypse]

Replaying ARR has been interesting. I'm still only up to level 20, but so many things stand out to me now that didn't really on first play because I was still getting acquainted with the world and the major characters, and didn't have them all straight yet, much less have later events to compare them with.

One of those things that stands out is that the voice direction feels really off in parts of ARR. I don't think it's the acting; these are all talented and experienced actors, but a voice actor can only work with what they're given and what they're told their character is reacting to, and there are moments where tone and inflection are just... off?

Nowhere is this more pronounced to me so far than in the level 20 cutscene with Alphinaud and Alisaie in the Quicksand. It's not just that Sam Riegel plays Alphinaud differently than his later actor. Even knowing that Alphinaud is supposed to be kind of naive and full of himself at this stage, the line delivery is bizarre. He sounds like he's been directed to talk like a supervillain. The tone and the emphasis he places on certain words isn't just arrogant, it's smug and self-satisfied in a way that's not just off-putting but downright ominous. It may have been intentional, but imo it's over the top. Alphinaud is a very flawed character, to be sure, being set up to make some serious mistakes, but he's not meant to be a villain.

I was never an Alphinaud hater, but rewatching this scene does make me understand better why he rubbed a lot of people the wrong way.

[toscrollperchancetomeme]

I think it could also be about creativity, though? Sam's technique is pretty good, but there are famous singers that go even harder vocally, but lack a little in terms of interpretation imo. And he kept delivering the lines in a different way, adding more attitude to it instead of singing it every verse in the same monotonous way. I think everyone is better at some things than others, and even their qualities can be improved with time and practice, but Sam not having a music career and pulling this off in whatever short time he had to prepare is impressive. And I think in a way it must be more terrifying because it is new territory and he's doing it alone? With acting at least you have scene partners that can help you get to that place. But I always see singers getting self-conscious on recording sessions, even when the producers are praising them, they keep finding flaws where there isn't any because being alone and able to hear themselves like that adds so much to their pressure and perfectionism, while singing live and feeding off from their fans is usually more liberating, fun and relaxing and you're just allowed to feel and not thinking too much. Anyway, I think most people are happily surprised and really enjoying it. I've personally said the same thing about him, I'm not a singer, but I'm passionate about music and follow some vocal coaches on YT... And even among musicians I'm obsessed about, I don't listen to their earliest songs that much because it almost sounds like different people. There's one singer that I basically skip their first four albums because on their fifth record things just reached a divine level (and I loved those albums, but after #THAT the bar was set too high so I only listen to like 1/3 of their discography). And I'm assuming Sam is still recording and he hasn't 'peaked' yet, either vocally or creatively, I believe future stuff will be even better, but we're off to a great start.

There's some very valid points in here, thank you! :)

It really does boil down to how one defines "singer" of course, and I get that there is only so much nuance one can put in a live reaction. I'm not a recording artist, I have written one song 10 years ago with the 5 guitar chords I know and it was shit. :D I just had a few years of vocal training and I enjoy interpreting music and do some community level musical theatre stuff. But I define myself as a singer. Maybe what irks me a bit that it's the same vein of dismissive treatment that musical theatre actors get around here (here being Germany): You're not a real singer because you're actually an actor, but you're not a real actor because you're doing musical, etc etc.

So, as is often the case, I'm seeing this through the filter of my own experience, in this case how I've seen really great professionals treated and often gatekept from breaking out of their genre. It's a complicated issue. I genuinely don't think that anyone meant harm or offense to Sam, but I wish people would be a bit considerate before defining for someone else who and what that person is or is not - especially while they are delivering a great performance. I think at this point Sam has proven that he can do it, and is, actually, a singer. But I'm also really curious about where his vocal journey will go and I can't wait to hear more! ;-; <3

Oh and I would absolutely love to see vocal coaches reacting to the song! I hope that happens soon, I'm really curious what they think. :)

(Also thank you so much for sending me an ask about this and being thoughtful and everything? I came back to tumblr for this fandom when S2 started airing and the experience has been nothing short of wonderful, I'm a bit humbled by the increasing engagement some of my posts are getting. ;-; )

[missielynne]

I feel so out of sync with the Ghosts fandom! I just don't care at all about fanwanking everyone's gender and sexual identity and even the canon romances are meh to me. And I was so meh about this Christmas episode while everyone else loved it. The possessions didn't work for me at all, and the Pete stuff...not to sound heartless, but we've already been down that exact same road with him and Laura so it didn't hit nearly as hard this time. I also don't love Jay as much as most do---he's kind of a wimp who apparently went years without standing up for Sam to his family and he's always so desperate for acceptance. Speaking of his family, yet another way I'm different from most of the ghosts fandom is that I can't STAND Bela. Like Jay, she thinks way too highly of herself and is kind of a social climber but lacks Jay's endearing qualities. Can't wait to read your review of this ep!

What are a few predictions you have for the rest of this season? Not obvious ones like Nisaac getting back together (which...yawn!) but kind of bold and unexpected ones?! Mine: Trevor is getting sucked off, Sam will discover she's pregnant and Hetty's power has something to do with time travel!

I totally get it, even though I will disagree to varying degrees on varying levels on some of those things. (Like for instance, Bela's my girl but I see where you're coming from.)

As for the episode itself...it's weird cause I DID like it...but not as a Christmas episode. It didn't feel particularly like a Christmas episode at all compared to its predecessor unless it was trying to replicate the holiday chaos of something like Home Alone or Christmas Vacation (neither of which are faves of mine. I prefer the stuff with warmer, happier endings and messages). I feel like the Christmas part of it was so on the periphery of the story that they could have made each possession be its own normal episode and the same story could have been told without it changing anything.

Like I LOVED the idea of Nancy helping Sam indirectly make headway with her mother-in-law in ways she couldn't do on her own. That was cool. But was it particularly Christmassy a la Thor the Grinch possessing Sam and learning what Christmas means? No, it was not.

And Pete possessing Jay? Entertaining and I LOVED that it gave him the opportunity to meet the ghosts "in person", but I wish they could have used the opportunity for the two to connect more rather than just turning Pete into a Hetty who's using the possession for his own gain (even though I understand the whole Laura thing and love them connecting, it was under a circumstance that could have happened any time.) I'm hoping that since the showrunners and writers know how big the Pete/Jay face to face/connection is to all of us, they're doing some sort of build up, from first trip out together to possession to...whatever comes next until they finally do talk and it's like a Very Special Episode or something.

Now I don't feel as strongly about Jay as you do, but I definitely agree with the idea that there needs to be some sort of reckoning in his and Sam's relationship where he finally just, I don't know, starts spilling out all his frustrations and says how he really feels. And I don't care if it leads to them having marriage troubles or what (if it's temporary and leads them both to actually learn something) but I hate Jay always having to get the short end of the stick and doing nothing to improve the situation. It's very frustrating.

I agree about Trevor getting sucked off. I won't be surprised if it happens because they really seem like they're setting something like that up. I hope with all my might that Sam doesn't discover she's pregnant now or at any point in the series. I really don't like this habit of showrunners feeling like every happily married couple needs to have a baby pop out of nowhere to be complete and I would like to have at least one show where that doesn't happen. (They did it in BBC Ghosts and it was a factor, IMO, why the ending was so unsatisfactory. But if it happens, I'll deal.)

Hetty's power having something to do with time travel? Interesting! Although I'm still thinking it's a phone thing. And in the Halloween episode she was going on about it showing up suddenly so maybe if she has phone powers, like there's a storm and they have no power and no way to reach anyone and then voila, in their hour of need, Hetty's power appears and she saves the day.

I also think Sas' COD is coming. Maybe something to do with food? (And possibly if that's a cause, maybe Jay's restaurant will be part of the reveal?)

And we haven't had our Stephanie episode yet so I wonder what they'll do with her and what it will take to get her sucked off? Maybe she gets to have some sort of revenge on her killer? Like he gets out of jail on parole and ends up at Woodstone somehow where she helps catch/reveal him like with Trevor and Ari but more intense?

And I wonder what else they'll do with Elias since he's coming too? Maybe there will be some talk about the Thomas and Alberta situation and we'll find out that Thomas has been chilling with his dad downstairs and...they both come up under the guise of Thomas making an apology to Alberta and...chaos ensues?

[destinyc1020]

Z and Kaia arent at the same career level or status, i dnt see why folks compare them. The only thing thats the same is they both dated the same messy ass man and Kaia is a gf to Zs coworker. Thats it lol, they aint friends n havent even been photographed together.

I doubt they go for the same roles, besides AHS (which i think she/her team learned from not to start with a leading role 👀) Kaia is always a side character and is doing more comedies (and again a few side character roles roles in drama) and Z has been 1st or 2nd billed when it comes to a variety of genres-drama (Euphoria), action (dune 1 n 2) and drama/comedy (challengers). When yr a side character sometimes u may nt b needed on set as much as the main characters, so yea, it makes sense why Kaia got more roles rn (along with other obvious reasons), she might nt b on set long and can jjst move onto the nxt job quickly. Z acts, produces and shadows her directors- that requres her to b on set more and b involved (probably) pre n post production. I doubt Kaia is doing anything bt acting rn (and thats fine). Folks acting lik Kaia getting more roles mean smthn-it dnt lol good for her for being booked i guess. Bt if folks goimg to compare Kaia to someone, it makes sense to compare her to other model/actors lik her friend Camilla Morone or Lily Rose. Nt Z, who is literally the IT girl rn lol

I totally agree Anon. 👏🏾

Z and Kaia shouldn't even be in the same sentence imo. They're on totally different levels.

Z started from the ground up. Kaia did not. 🤷🏾‍♀️ Z's fanbase is humongous.... Kaia's is not. Kaia was born into privilege, Zendaya was not. Plus, Z has been acting since she was a kid, whereas Kaia has been slowly phasing out of her career of modeling, and doing what EVERYBODY seems to want to do these days for some reason lol, which is ACT. 🥴

We've got models acting, former wrestlers acting, singers acting, etc. It's almost like everybody and their auntie wants to act these days lol 😆 It's funny lol.

Look, I have no issues with Kaia wanting to act, or even that she's a nepobaby (Hollywood is FULL of them, and you can't control who your parents are 🤷🏾‍♀️).

All that I ask is that if you're a nepobaby, PLEASE, for the love of God, get some acting lessons! 🙏🏾😩 Work on and hone your craft. Otherwise, you're basically taking a perfectly decent spot/role in a film or a TV show from an actual REAL actress who actually knows how to act, and it's really kinda sad. 😔

So yea, like you said, quantity doesn't equal quality.

I don't even know why some ppl would even mention Kaia or Sydney (for that matter) in the same sentence as Zendaya. That's like comparing apples to birds. 😅

Re: Lily Rose....

Yes, she's a nepobaby, but at least she can halfway act. She's actually a pretty decent actress imo. It makes sense too, cuz her dad is an awesome actor.

It's just a shame she sold herself to the devil with that role in Sam Levinson's disaster "The Idol". 😬

She didn't need to do that show imo. She already had acting talent as far as I'm concerned. 🤦🏾‍♀️

[ca-suffit]

agree w/ the rest of the anon’s ask re: marketing but this part — “they lean into the romance (with the white man) aspect when marketing it, which explains the ridiculous tone of the loustat reunion as well (which amc insisted on the hopeful/romantic tone instead of a darker one) and it once and for all proves why they wanted dreamstat in this season so much, unlike it was planned” isn’t really fair imo bc a) the marketing leans into the romance because… that’s what the show is about, and b) it’s never been said that they “insisted” on anything for the reunion… it’s clear rolin got what he wanted in the end product. he talked about working on it after the strikes ended with jacob and sam to get it right. it didn’t even have a romantic tone anyway… i feel like criticise the marketing all you want but there’s no real evidence that amc has much creative involvement in the show, from what rolin has said it seems like he’s delighted with how much freedom he has

(context)

I think where some of this comes from is that rolin does mention that AMC wouldn't go for the "nihilism" of the original book scene, but also says it's not what he wanted to do anyway (and he never tried to do it either, this is in the text quote below). combining this with feeling hurt by choices whoever is making to keep smoothing over racial topics and centering whiteness in various ways, it makes sense why this lands how it does with some ppl.

here's sources for some direct quotes on this.

at 6:39 rolin talks about the reunion scene here

and here's another quote from rolin about the 2x8 reunion scene (src)

The A.V. Club: The last three episodes of season two were jaw-droppers. When you broke down the season, did you know where you wanted everyone to land and then backwards engineer from there? Because this finale run is quite the feat in terms of structure and double bluffs.

Rolin Jones: It’s so hard to go back to all the permutations because we really were building 15 episodes instead of a regular season. Season two has its own structural issues. I’m trying to think of what was surprising…. The destination for Molloy [Eric Bogosian] I knew at the beginning. I kind of always knew that the first 20 minutes would be a Liam Neeson movie and the structure of the trial.

Before the timeline took over, in my first read, I was like, “What if [Louis and Lestat’s] reunion happens during [Hurricane] Katrina?” Then I was like, “Well, it doesn’t have to be Katrina. It can still be a hurricane. It’s New Orleans.” I thought a little bit about [King] Lear when [Lestat’s] in these rags and there’s a storm out there. It’s so beautifully done in the book, but it’s so wildly different. There was no way I was ever going to be able to sell that level of nihilism to AMC. And also, it’s not the story that we were ultimately telling anyway. And that was the pressure of knowing where [Anne] put those two later on in the books. It’s like, “What’s the event that really needs to happen there?”

AVC: There’s so much vulnerability and truth between Louis and Lestat [Sam Reid] in that moment, especially in their shared grief over Claudia.

RJ: It’s such a hard thing to do to a core audience, to take a year and a half break in the middle of a movie. I’m hoping that people will—now knowing the end—go back and see what we were doing in season one. There’s a lot of evidence to support love. We were never going to be fearful that they were predators and that if you imagine your worst human fight, things can get out of control. [We] had to deal with vampiric rage and vampiric love in all its forms. We fell on the idea, ultimately, that the season and maybe the show so far has been about this journey towards contrition and forgiveness and accountability. It’s not about pointing fingers and [going,] “Who did this to whom?” Now we’re like, “What can you control amongst yourself? What part did you play in that?” And that’s what we were doing with Louis for these first two seasons. Chipping away, chipping away.

I would also say on this show that [Claudia] is not closed. We have not tied a ribbon around that. So that’s actually just beginning, the accountability of that. To think that that will be swept under the rug…I don’t think you can. There’s still a lot there.

[nalyra-dreaming]

Hi! Do you remember Sam saying that "lestat needs to understand it's his fault all people he turned into vampire left him" including Gabrielle and Nicki. Do you agree with him? Because unless they'll majorly change dynamics between Lestat and Gabrielle and Nickistat it's not his fault? Gabrielle and Lestat couldn't stay together because they ultimately needed different things and I always felt they understood that, and Nicki was mentally ill... I'm honestly scared how they'll spin those relationship because they changed a lot from loustat dynamic in IWTV (book), while they added more romance, they added more physical abuse too and outcome turned out completely different (in book there's grey area concerning Claudia murdering Lestat, in show he deserved everything and way more etc) I just really hope they know what they're doing. I saw too many takes and theories how bad Lestat was to Nicki and Gabrielle, and if those turned out to be true I don't know what to do. I get that Rolin wants character redemption arc, but the way lestat's character morally made way worse for that is not a good thing IMO. Lestats antagonistic role in first book was more because of Louis general misunderstanding of lestats character, who he truly see in the end of the book. In the show Louis knows way more about Lestats past already AND lestats way more awful to Louis and Claudia. It can't be simple miscommunication (in simplifying terms). So I truly trust Sam with lestats character but I don't trust writers and unfortunately Sam can't influence them (at least majorly) Basically I'm afraid of them making Lestat even MORE removed from book!canon for the sake of future arc when there's no need for that

Sorry for the rant, but you're one of my favorite blogs in fandom, and your answers always do thoughtful, I thought I'd share my concerns with you

Glad you like my blog!

Tbh, I differ a bit with the judgement of Lestat being removed from the books... The show pulled all the subtext up (*ducks away from Sam*), not just the implied sexual components, but also in regards to the abuse. The abuse is in the books, it's text, it's good to remember that.

And Lestat can be quite capricious, and an ass, and he is a killer. They all are. I don't think he is that much removed from book!canon actually, especially when you consider that... we haven't even seen the real Lestat yet.

The only(!!!) "real" Lestat we get in season 1... is "Come To Me". And if you look at the text there, it is surprisingly insightful, I've written about it here (and I'll go over it in today's chapter of 'Laden').

Louis is telling us his story, for an effect. He wanted to omit Lestat in Paris, and for that he had to be dead, and it had to be inevitable for him to be dead. The reason for this interview is still unclear at this point, though I believe it has a lot more to do with Daniel and Armand than the need for an actual second interview^^.

I'd be very careful with theories and metas taking only what is the "first level" of it all at face value, namely what Louis is telling to Daniel. That is a tale, and that tale has already been broken apart at the end of episode 7. Was it all a lie? No, most certainly not.

But it was not the (whole) truth either and told for an effect.

So, I'd... suggest not to fret just yet.

From what I've seen and what I've heard... there is literally no reason to worry. 😅

None.

For all the characters btw, not just Lestat.

I think they did their homework, and magnificently so, too. That will show in all the relationships, in the one to Gabrielle and Nicolas, too, but... remember we are likely on Lestat's POV then... and that will be massively different.

The writers are playwrights, let's let them tell their tale :), and then we can judge after.

But I'm not worried at all tbh. Just giddy.

[backslashdelta]

I'm having a 'Puck' brain tonight, so...

In the ol' fandom style of "Character A gets adopted into Character B's family"; if Puck was adopted into different Glee Club member's families, how do you think he would fair?

Oooo fun okay let's do this!

Finn (pre-Hudmels): he'd do great here. Carole would love him like a son and he'd be stoked to live with Finn. Finn would be stoked having him around too, I think. They'd squabble sometimes but overall it would be good.

Kurt (pre-Hudmels): Puck was still a douche to Kurt in earlier seasons so I don't think Burt would stand for that and Puck would be out on his ass. But if it was a later version of Puck that's actually nice, then I think this would go well. He'd play pretty much the same role Finn plays in the Hudmel dynamic except better because I think at heart he's a kinder person than Finn WHOOPS I said what I said

Hudmels - I think he'd fit in fantastic here. In my headcanons Puck is just always around the Hudmel house anyway, so I think he'd fit in seamlessly.

Sam - This is another good option imo. They're a pretty chill family and I think they'd all get on well.

Quinn - This would be a tough one. Quinn's parents have very specific expectations, and Puck would not only meet none of them, but he would also be pissed off about that and act out more. Terrible combination.

Santana - I think this would probably be fine? I don't have a lot of thoughts either way. It wouldn't be terrible or amazing, just fine.

Brittany - I think he'd really vibe here actually. I feel like Puck and Brittany have potential to be pretty good friends actually, so I think they'd have a fun time. Her parents are kinda weird but they're loving, and I think Puck would appreciate them and their quirks.

Artie - Partie are bros, Artie's mom seems great. I think this would be a really good combination. They'd spend a lot of time gaming together and Puck would maybe be a little bit of a bad influence but nothing to extreme.

Blaine - I don't want to think about this because of whatever they have going on at the wedding.

Tina - I feel like she has pretty chill parents, so I think this wouldn't be terrible, but I don't see them having a ton in common so I think he'd feel a little out of place? But it would be fine.

Mercedes - I think he'd enjoy this! He'd probably say some dumb shit occasionally and have to get set straight, but it comes from a place of wanting to learn more and understand so he's forgiven. I feel like living with them would make him kind of protective of Mercedes too, so he'd be watching out for her at school. I think he'd feel the closest to a sibling relationship with her compared to any of the other options, for some reason.

Mike - I think Mike's parents would be too strict. Not to the same level as Quinn's, but enough that it would cause issues and he'd end up acting out.

Rachel - bonus points because they're a Jewish family! So he would really like that aspect. He'd find her dad's weird but generally would like them. I think he'd be resistant to the frequent singing at first but would warm up to it and really enjoy it once he let himself. They'd even get him playing guitar sometimes! His least favourite part is that Rachel would get on his nerves at times, but I think he has a soft spot for her so it wouldn't be a hide issue.

[scoobydoodean]

I sometimes wonder if Sam would have made more sense if he'd been a 13 year old kid or something. I have watched a lot of films and tv shows where you have the "Chosen One" trope for the younger protag and the "Protector" trope for the oldest, but the younger one is a LOT younger so the dynamic makes sense and is a lot clearer. SPN muddied the waters imo by making Sam and Dean only 3-4 years different in age, it contributed to my dislike of Sam in a way because why was he babied so much?? He's not THAT much younger than Dean. You could argue that it adds to the tragedy of Dean being parentified at such a young age, when he was only a child himself, but also it adds to my frustration over how they each get treated differently by the narrative and the fandom.

So. This would make the perceptions of the people I was ranting about last night make more sense, but I don't think it's the story Kripke wanted to tell (he's kind of a fucked up guy tbh—like—happy he made two shows I enjoy but when I watch them: jfc Kripke you have issues bro—and sometimes you make idiotic commentary in your shows while thinking you are saying something very moral and correct). The truth is though, these fans really should be expected to analyze media as adults, and look at a man in his 20s, 30s, and near 40s and understand that he isn't a child, and he isn't intended to be seen as one—not by Dean, not by fans, not by other characters, not by himself... but that that desire to frame him as a child is the result of childhood abuse that is perpetuated and rejected in turns—often by Sam himself—because he doesn't know how to stop—and we aren't always supposed to look at it and think that the actual narrative is intended to be that Dean is responsible for his issues. We are only meant to understand that Sam is choosing to frame things that way at a given moment in time.

The story Kripke wanted to tell originally—in part—is about two brothers much closer in age, but who both grew up as victims of emotional incest acted out against the eldest. It is important, within that story imo, that Sam is actually an adult with the agency to make his own choices. 13 year old Sam is a more morally clear framework, but it... isn't that interesting if I'm being honest. I like this much messier story, about how the scars of emotional incest don't stop existing and corrupting relationships into our adulthoods if we let them. While Dean is obviously the primary victim of the emotional incest acted out against him (father and mother to Sam; emotional support to his own father) Sam was also a victim of how this abuse acted out against Dean warped his perception of himself, Dean, and John. He was victimized by a dynamic that placed him as a perpetual child with no agency (even as he neared adulthood—even in adulthood) and his brother as a perpetual adult with ultimate responsibility and control over not just Sam's actions but also some level of control over his own father's actions. The warped thinking caused by emotional incest leads Sam to convince himself, at points, that he doesn't actually have agency (and Dean is the one denying him it, and therefore needs to be rebelled against as if he is actually stopping Sam from doing anything almost ever), and it causes him to in the beginning, frame Dean as John's spouse when he is thinking about their childhoods, and condemn Dean for what he didn't do to stop it. The latter is much more subtle, and it's also tempered by the moments where Sam does remember that Dean was a child—such as in Something Wicked.

When Sam blames Dean for his own decisions, he is retreating to the framework John set them up in, where he is a child who can't be held accountable, and Dean is responsible (ex: "And when dad came home" in Dark Side of the Moon) because it's familiar to him—and also because Sam harbors an extreme terror about his self-image and finds it extremely difficult to face his own flaws because he's scared of what they say about him more largely as a human being (which is, frankly, Johncore—but remember—I don't think about "johncore" the same way a lot of people do). This is NOT an okay thing for Sam to do, but it IS very interesting, isn't it? The 13 year old chosen one protagonist... I'm not sure I would have watched that show.

I have read, but haven't reblogged it because I have still been thinking about it—some commentary by AngelsDean on how Sam... isn't actually special. He is not a special boy. He was targeted by a fucking evil creep during his childhood and temporarily got powers. I agree with this, and I think it is important to understand. Sam is not the chosen one. Neither is Dean. They are both Some Guy™️ initially. The concepts of them having a special bloodline wasn't even thought about by Kripke originally—he didn't plan to introduce angels until Gamble convinced him iirc? (And also wanted to do away with the special children storyline almost immediately because he said it bored him). Sam is not uniquely chosen —and if he and Dean were, they would be chosen for destruction? Because their role introduced in season 4/5 was to destroy the world as the weapons of archangels. Their childhoods were intended to get them to say yes. Their fucked up childhoods—their inability to deal with them—were intended to make them eventually destroy each other and the world. This is all why, to me, Sam being an adult is important to the story. I don't mind that these themes exist in SPN and that they are tricky to navigate. I do mind when fans I was ranting about engage with these themes extremely selectively and ignore larger context and other ethical considerations constantly in order to build a framework that protects their extremely fragile image of their fave.