#denethor

[howling-medic]

Additional thought that I’m too tired to flesh out: Denethor sees Faramir following Gandalf’s line of thinking, and he lashes out against that.

We know from the appendices that Denethor has never trusted Gandalf- we know that this is tied into his hatred of Thorongil. I always interpreted it as Denethor disliked Thorongil of his own merit, then also disliked the praise he received and the resulting insecurity it stirred in him, AND then disliked Thorongil further for his trust in Gandalf. I have seen others read it as Denethor and Thorongil got along fine until Thorongil was favored over him and the alliance between Thorongil and Gandalf made Denethor’s relationship with Gandalf sour.

Regardless! He has a son who favors the softer teachings of Gandalf - an advisor he never asked for who was favored by his nemesis from his youth, who ever so conveniently for him disappeared - and loves the things he wishes he could have loved.

This son also aspires to ideals that his people have never achieved. Denethor has given up on the illustrious ideals of Númenor. He has seen his people die and wreck their world trying to chase immortality in the same path as their forebears. He sees his son leaning into those ideals. He hates it. He hates everything about it. They were not dealt that hand. They were not given the chance to enjoy anything soft. They must hard as the steel blades they wield.

Faramir is everything he wanted to be growing up (or everything he hated about himself growing up, still unsure) AND he learned it all from an advisor he hated in his youth (and still hates) and was in league with his nemesis.

No shit he hates his son, the bastard. The man literally can’t relinquish essentially a schoolyard rivalry.

I may delete this once I’ve slept, but until then, enjoy some sleep deprived rambling mess of commentary. None of this has been proofread for typos, grammatical errors, coherency of thought, or validity. Nothing has been researched. No source text has been referenced. I just have thoughts and opinions about my least favorite Stewart of Gondor.

So in chapter one of ROTK we learn that Denethor loves Boromir more than Faramir because Denethor and Faramir are so alike, and Boromir is different. I feel like this is very much lost in the films, and we end up with the impression that Boromir is the golden child because he is following exactly in his father’s footsteps, thinks the same, and supports all his goals. But in reality, it’s the opposite.

I think this implies a certain level of self-hatred that Denethor carries, which he projects onto Faramir. But what happened to make Denethor devalue the characteristics of their Numenorean heritage? Why doesn’t he value he and Faramir’s foresight, knowledge of lore, and steadiness?

Could it be that Ecthelion treated Denethor like Denethor treats Faramir? Did Denethor learn the behavior from his own father?

[maenefa]

This kind of Denethor discourse is so frustrating to me that I am literally pacing back and forth like a panther in a zoo enclosure. Ugggggggghhhhh

A lot of people will tell you that the moral of The Lord of the Rings is “never lose hope,” and that Denethor is bad because he loses hope.

Please read THIS and THIS and especially THIS, which is one of the most beautiful and heartbreaking meditations on LotR you’ll ever read. Tolkien’s ideas about hope are so much more radical than “hope good despair bad.”

Denethor—Tolkien’s Denethor, not Peter Jackson’s Denethor—is unsettling because he tries to hope, but his hope isn’t strong enough to save him. Here are his thoughts on hope, just a few days before his death:

The time will not be long. In what is left, let all who fight the Enemy in their fashion be at one, and keep hope while they may, and after hope still the hardihood to die free.

Denethor has a more “realist” worldview than Gandalf or Faramir, but he’s not a nihilist. He’s still hanging onto hope even though he’s grieving Boromir and he’s positive that Frodo is going to be captured by Sauron. He only breaks when Faramir is mortally wounded and he sees the black ships in the palantir. And I don’t mean he gives up, I mean his mind snaps:

And as [Pippin] watched, it seemed to him that Denethor grew old before his eyes, as if something had snapped in his proud will, and his stern mind was overthrown.

Tolkien repeatedly uses language like “madness,” “madman,” “he is not himself” and “his mind was overthrown.” It’s not subtle!

Denethor is having a psychotic episode. His culpability is reduced, either partially or totally; we can’t know for certain. But I don’t think that everything he says and does in his last moments is “the real Denethor.”

We can do our best and try to have hope, but sometimes life crushes us. How are we supposed to live with the knowledge that this can happen?

Tolkien was haunted by the idea of heroes who fail, heroes who are crushed by their burdens:

Frodo indeed 'failed' as a hero, as conceived by simple minds: he did not endure to the end; he gave in, ratted. (Letter 246)

….I think it can be observed in history and experience that some individuals seem to be placed in 'sacrificial' positions: situations or tasks that for perfection of solution demand powers beyond their utmost limits, even beyond all possible limits for an incarnate creature in a physical world – in which a body may be destroyed, or so maimed that it affects the mind and will. Judgement upon any such case should then depend on the motives and disposition with which he started out, and should weigh his actions against the utmost possibility of his powers, all along the road to whatever proved the breaking-point. (Letter 246)

Tolkien himself tended to judge Denethor harshly, but the character fits very well into the same template as Frodo: a “sacrificial” person who is pushed beyond his limits. The palantir aged him and weakened his mental health, but what truly pushed him over the edge was the wounding of Faramir: Tolkien says that Denethor “maintained the integrity of his personality until the final blow of the (apparently) mortal wound of his only surviving son.”

It’s easy to judge Denethor for using the palantir (although Tolkien said that he had the right to use it and Gandalf admitted that the palantir’s knowledge had often proved useful!) but what should Denethor have done differently regarding sending Faramir into battle? We know that the defense of Osgiliath was necessary because Tolkien had the Rohirrim arrive at the exact moment the Witch King is about to ride through the gate of Minas Tirith. If Faramir hadn’t delayed Mordor’s army, the Rohirrim would have showed up to a conquered city.

Denethor believed that it was necessary to send Faramir to Osgiliath… and he was right! But the pain of being responsible for Faramir’s death was too great for him to bear. You can say that his craving for information killed him, but it’s just as accurate to say that his love for Faramir killed him.

Gandalf tells Denethor’s servants that they were “caught in a net of warring duties,” and this is also true of Denethor. His duty as a father conflicts with his duty as the leader of Gondor, and the strain destroys him.

It may be true that Denethor’s need for control is a character flaw, but I wonder about his final use of the palantir. His son appears to be dying: why does he leave his side to go look in the palantir? I actually think this was a hopeful act: Denethor was hoping to see the Rohirrim, or some kind of good news about the war, some indication that Faramir’s death would not be in vain. But the palantir shows him that he sent his son to die for nothing.

It’s the tragedy of Denethor lamenting “I sent my son forth, unthanked, unblessed, out into needless peril” and dying before he can learn that the battle wasn’t needless… you can’t reduce this tragedy to a morality play!

Okay, I can’t deny that the palantir is a very topical analogy for the internet/smartphones/the tyranny of “data” in general.

But Denethor is so much more than a blackpilled internet doomer, and I will defend him forever.

[anghraine]

Today was a weird, uncomfortable day, so I'm consoling myself in the best way: with a Tumblr poll about my favorite Tolkien family—

*Tolkien wrote of the foundation of the Stewardship:

The Kings of Gondor had no doubt had “stewards” from an early time, but these were only minor officials ... He [Húrin of Emyn Arnen] was evidently the chief officer under the crown, prime counsellor of the King, and at appointment endowed with the right to assume vice-regal status [note: that is, the status of a viceroy or regent granted the powers and responsibilities of the king in his absence], and assist in determining the choice of heir to the throne, if this became vacant in his time. These functions all of his descendants inherited.

**Except the very elderly, obviously—but otherwise, every described Dúnadan of Gondor has dark or black hair (Boromir's is dark and longish by his death, while Faramir's is black and likely longer). Nearly all described Southern Dúnedain have grey eyes as well, including Boromir, Faramir, their uncle Imrahil, random soldiers, Rangers, messengers, etc, while Denethor has dark, glowing eyes (the color unknown). The members of the House of the Stewards, specifically including Boromir, also have enough of Elros's blood to inherit his beardlessness.

(None of the women of the Southern Dúnedain are described as anything except vaguely beautiful, but there's no reason to suppose the appearances of Elros's female descendants are more variable than the male ones, and Tolkien did say in NOME that Númenórean men and women were more physically similar to each other than usual.)

[thegreendragoninn]

LotR has too many 'S' names! Lol.

[the-eclectic-penguin]

[boromirswife]

"The very highest."

The Lord of the Rings: The Two Towers (2002)

[southfarthing]

THE RETURN OF THE KING by J.R.R. TOLKIEN

Your bearing is lowly in my presence, yet it is long now since you turned from your own way at my counsel. See, you have spoken skilfully, as ever; but I, have I not seen your eye fixed on Mithrandir, seeking whether you said well or too much? He has long had your heart in his keeping.

[velvet4510]

Thinking about all the parents of the Fellowship during the events of the War of the Ring.

Thinking about Saradoc & Esmeralda Brandybuck and Paladin & Eglantine Took, none of whom have any idea where their sons are.

Thinking about the Gaffer, seeing a creepy hooded Man asking for the whereabouts of his son’s boss and then hearing that said son’s boss’ house has been raided and his son is nowhere to be found.

Thinking about Bilbo, knowing that his dear nephew is going into danger because of his own actions so long ago and might never return.

Thinking about Glóin, having to come home to his wife in Erebor and tell her their son is facing life-or-death danger for the first time.

Thinking about Elrond, the wise part of him knowing what must be done vs. the paternal part berating himself for sending his beloved foster son into such peril and wondering if he’ll ever be able to look his daughter in the eye again if her fiancé doesn’t come back.

Thinking about Thranduil, finding out that his only child has entered the war with the very same enemy that destroyed his father and 2/3 of his army.

Thinking about Denethor, trying to protect and defend his entire kingdom while constantly wondering why his favorite son still hasn’t come home.

Thinking about all those parents, having to spend month after month with absolutely no idea if they will ever see their sons again.

[s-u-w-i]

Another seven 🌼 The handsome guys never quite turn out the way I want, it's so much easier to draw orcs and creatures...

Also, I’ve decided I'll be selling the originals after I finish all the drawings (that means after Easter). But if there is any character you'd like to have in particular you can start reserving them now. By messaging me here or on s.u.w.i@email.cz :^)

Goldberry isn't taken yet!

The prices are from 50 to 80USD (shipping included). And same as last year with the dog drawings this year also all the earnings will be sent to charities.

More characters here and here!

[dagordagorath]

[tyrellia]

[remusjohnslupin]

♦ LOTR WEEK | day four: 'gifts, burdens & choices'

[autistook]

March 11th - Denethor sends Faramir to Osgiliath

[no-one-can-save-you-now12]

I just don't understand boromir haters. Most of them likely haven't even read the books and just because he made a few mistakes in his life he's now unforgivable? They don't even have good reasons, it's just things like "o he tried to kill frodo" or "he was being selfish and wanted the ring for himself" like what?

He did not want the ring for himself. He wanted it to protect his people who very likely had the most damage because they are so close to mordor. And in the books he only commented about it once (except for the end). I love movie boromir but I hate how they make it this huge thing where he just constantly is thinking about the ring. Not to mention he was around the ring for at least two months. There were so many others who gave into the ring after only just seeing it. I think the ring was trying to specifically get him to try and take the ring. Seeing as it probably knew he was the most vulnerable to it because of everything else going on in his life (e.g his people and cities dying, the pressure from his father, everything with faramir, ect,)

Boromir is not a bad person. Yes, he makes mistakes, yes he's prideful. But that doesn't mean you can't forgive him, he repented, and without him where would the fellowship be? Aragorn wouldn't have known what happened to the hobbits, therefore Merry and Pippin would probably be dead. There's just so much he did for the people he loves, and if you think otherwise then that's your loss.

[kierancampire]

More LoTR memes

[ballroomfitz]

Do you think Boromir tried to protect Faramir from their father’s wrath when they were kids? Do you think when Faramir scraped his knee Boromir tried to make him laugh to distract him because he knew their father would come to chastise Faramir for weakness?

Do you think the golden boy of Gondor had to grow up too fast because his father didn’t know how to treat him like a child?