#nature of middle earth

[morgulien]

“Tolkien wasn’t good at writing women” well explain this

[aracaranelentari]

Here's another Nature of Middle-Earth quote that I keep thinking about:

"[Years of the Trees:] 2223. The "Ambassadors" return. Great Debate of the Quendi. A few refuse even to attend. Imin, Tata, and Enel are ill-pleased, and regard the affair as a revolt on the part of the youngest Quendi, to escape their authority. None of the First Elves (144) accept the invitation. Hence the Avari called and still call themselves "the Seniors"." (NoME 96)

I think that's super interesting! Tolkien gives multiple potential versions of this whole sequence, when the Three Ambassadors return to Cuiviénen, so this is only one of them, but it's kind of my favorite. I like the idea that the Three Ambassadors sort of usurped the leadership of the Three Fathers, and that Imin, Tata, and Enel are potentially still out there, and may have a grudge against those three descendants of theirs.

Imin especially is a pretentious asshole, as he claims to be the "Father of all Quendi", and seems to want control over all the Elves. I want to write a fic where Morgoth or Sauron ally with Imin, maybe they tell him they can help him regain his authority over the Elves? It would certainly be an interesting premise if the Three Fathers showed up at Valinor or Beleriand one day, with the intent of taking back their kingship.

It's also always been bizarre to me that Fëanor was so worried about Fingolfin usurping the throne when Finwë was king in a place where kings do not die, and do not really need heirs (theoretically). But if Finwë was a usurper before Fingolfin was, then Fëanor's fears have a bit more ground, I think, especially if Fingolfin had the greater love from their people. It's happened before, Fëanor would think, therefore it could happen again. Elves seem to follow who they prefer as a king rather than who technically has the most claim, which is shown both in the Three Ambassadors vs the Three Fathers, and also with Fëanor vs Fingolfin during the Flight.

[anghraine]

Hi! Can you explain what really the power of foresight was with Faramir? I read the books earlier this year and I don't really quite understand it. He could predict the future? Like he would see it in his dreams? But how did he found out from Gollum that he was taking frodo and sam to cirith ungol and that he had committed murder before?

No problem, it's one of my favorite topics!

The concise explanation: I think Faramir's foresight/aftersight in terms of visions is a largely separate "power" from his ability to bring his strength of mind and will to bear on other people and animals, and to resist outside influence. The visions seem more a matter of broad sensitivity, something Faramir doesn't appear to have much if any control over. The second power is (in our terms) essentially a form of direct telepathy, limited in some ways but still very powerful, and I think this second ability is what Faramir is using with Gollum.

The really long version:

In my opinion, Faramir (or Denethor, Aragorn, etc) doesn't necessarily read thoughts like a book, particularly not with a mind as resistant as Gollum's. Faramir describes Gollum's mind in particular as dark and closed, it seems unusually so—

"There are locked doors and closed windows in your mind, and dark rooms behind them," said Faramir.

Still, Gollum is unable to entirely block Faramir's abilities. In LOTR, it does not seem that Gollum can fully block powerful mental abilities such as Faramir's, though his toughness and hostility does limit what Faramir can see. (Unfinished Tales, incidentally, suggests iirc that Denethor's combination of "great mental powers" and his right to use the Anor-stone allowed him to telepathically get the better of Saruman through their palantíri, a similar but greater feat.) I imagine that this is roughly similar to, but scaled down from, Galadriel's telepathic inquiries of even someone as reluctant to have her in his mind as Boromir, given that Faramir is able to still see some things in Gollum's mind, if with more difficulty than usual.

(WRT Boromir ... ngl, if I was the human buffer between Denethor and Faramir, I would also not be thrilled about sudden telepathic intrusions from basically anyone, much less someone I had little reason to trust.)

Disclaimer: a few years after LOTR's publication, Tolkien tried to systematize how this vague mystical telepathy stuff really works. One idea he had among many, iirc, was that no unwilling person's mind could be "read" the ways that Gollum's is throughout LOTR. IMO that can't really be reconciled w/ numerous significant interactions in LOTR where resistance to mental intrusion or domination is clearly variable between individuals and affected by personal qualities like strength of will, basic resilience, the effort put into opposition, supernatural powers, etc. And these attempts at resistance are unsuccessful or only partially successful on many occasions in LOTR (the Mouth of Sauron, for one example, is a Númenórean sorcerer in the book who can't really contend with Aragorn on a telepathic level). So I, personally, tend to avoid using the terminology and rationales from that later systematized explanation when discussing LOTR. And in general, I think Tolkien's later attempts to convert the mystical, mysterious wonder of Middle-earth into something more "hard magic" or even scientific was a failed idea on a par with Teleporno. Others differ!

In any case, when Gollum "unwillingly" looks at Faramir while being questioned, the creepy light drains from his eyes and he shrinks back while Faramir concludes he's being honest on that specific occasion. Gollum experiences physical pain when he does try to lie to Faramir—

"It is called Cirith Ungol." Gollum hissed sharply and began muttering to himself. "Is not that its name?" said Faramir turning to him. "No!" said Gollum, and then he squealed, as if something had stabbed him.

I don't think this is a deliberate punishment from Faramir—that wouldn't be like him at all—and I don't think it's the Ring, but simply a natural consequence of what Faramir is. Later, Gandalf says of Faramir's father:

"He can perceive, if he bends his will thither, much of what is passing in the minds of men ... It is difficult to deceive him, and dangerous to try."

So, IMO, Faramir's quick realization that Gollum is a murderer doesn't come from any vision of the future or past involving Gollum—that is, it's not a deduction from some event he's seen. Faramir does not literally foresee Gollum's trick at Cirith Ungol. His warning would be more specific in that case, I think. What he sees seems to be less detailed but more direct and, well, mystical. Faramir likely doesn't know who exactly Gollum murdered or why or what any of the circumstances were. Rather, Gollum's murderousness and malice are visible conditions of his soul to Faramir's sight. Faramir doesn't foresee the particulars of Gollum's betrayal—but he can see in Gollum's mind that he is keeping something back. Faramir says of Gollum:

"I do not think you are holden to go to Cirith Ungol, of which he has told you less than he knows. That much I perceived clearly in his mind."

Meanwhile, in a letter written shortly before the publication of LOTR, Tolkien said of Faramir's ancestors:

They became thus in appearance, and even in powers of mind, hardly distinguishable from the Elves

So these abilities aren't that strange in that context. Faramir by chance (or "chance") is, like his father, almost purely an ancient Númenórean type despite living millennia after the destruction of Númenor (that destruction is the main reason "Númenóreanness" is fading throughout the age Faramir lives in). Even less ultra-Númenórean members of Denethor's family are still consistently inheriting characteristics from their distant ancestor Elros, Elrond's brother, while Faramir and Denethor independently strike Sam and Pippin as peculiarly akin to Gandalf, a literal Maia like their ancestress Melian:

“Ah well, sir,” said Sam, “you [Faramir] said my master had an elvish air; and that was good and true. But I can say this: you have an air too, sir, that reminds me of, of—well, Gandalf, of wizards.”

He [Denethor] turned his dark eyes on Gandalf, and now Pippin saw a likeness between the two, and he felt the strain between them, almost as if he saw a line of smouldering fire drawn from eye to eye, that might suddenly burst into flame.

Meanwhile, Faramir's mother's family is believed to be part Elvish, a belief immediately confirmed when Legolas meets Faramir's maternal uncle:

At length they came to the Prince Imrahil, and Legolas looked at him and bowed low; for he saw that here indeed was one who had elven-blood in his veins. "Hail, lord!" he [Legolas] said. "It is long since the people of Nimrodel left the woodlands of Lórien, and yet still one may see that not all sailed from Amroth’s haven west over water."

In addition to that, Faramir's men believe he's under some specific personal blessing or charm as well as the Númenórean/Elvish/Maia throwback qualities. It's also mentioned by different groups of soldiers that Faramir can exercise some power of command over animals as well as people. Beregond describes Faramir getting his horse to run towards five Nazgûl in real time:

"They will make the Gate. No! the horses are running mad. Look! the men are thrown; they are running on foot. No, one is still up, but he rides back to the others. That will be the Captain [Faramir]: he can master both beasts and men."

Then, during the later retreat of Faramir's men across the Pelennor:

At last, less than a mile from the City, a more ordered mass of men came into view, marching not running, still holding together. The watchers held their breath. "Faramir must be there," they said. "He can govern man and beast."

Tolkien said of the ancient Númenóreans:

But nearly all women could ride horses, treating them honourably, and housing them more nobly than any other of their domestic animals. The stables of a great man were often as large and as fair to look upon as his own house. Both men and women rode horses for pleasure … and in ceremony of state both men and women of rank, even queens, would ride, on horseback amid their escorts or retinues … The Númenóreans trained their horses to hear and understand calls (by voice or whistling) from great distances; and also, where there was great love between men or women and their favorite steeds, they could (or so it is said in ancient tales) summon them at need by their thought alone. So it was also with their dogs.

Likely the same Númenórean abilities were used for evil by Queen Berúthiel against her cats. In an interview with Daphne Castell, Tolkien said:

She [Berúthiel] was one of these people who loathe cats, but cats will jump on them and follow them about—you know how sometimes they pursue people who hate them? I have a friend like that. I’m afraid she took to torturing them for amusement, but she kept some and used them—trained them to go on evil errands by night, to spy on her enemies or terrify them.

The more formal version of the Berúthiel lore recurs in Unfinished Tales:

She had nine black cats and one white, her slaves, with whom she conversed, or read their memories, setting them to discover all the dark secrets of Gondor, so that she knew those things "that men wish most to keep hidden," setting the white cat to spy upon the black, and tormenting them.

Faramir, by contrast, has a strong aversion to harming/killing animals for any reason other than genuine need, but apparently quite similar basic abilities. He typically uses these abilities to try to compassionately understand other people or gather necessary information, rather than for domination or provoking fear. Even so, Faramir does seem to use his mental powers pretty much all the time with no attempt to conceal what he's doing—he says some pretty outlandish things to Frodo and Sam as if they're very ordinary, but it doesn't seem that most people he knows can do all these things. This stuff is ordinary to him because it flows out of his fundamental being, not because it's common.

It's not clear how much fine control he has, interestingly. This is more headcanon perhaps, but I don't feel like it's completely under his control, even while it's much more controlled than things like Faramir's vision of Boromir's funeral boat, his frequent, repeated dreams of Númenor's destruction, the Ring riddle dream he received multiple times, or even his suspiciously specific "guess" of what passed between Galadriel and Boromir in Lothlórien. Yet his more everyday mental powers do seem to involve some measure of deliberate effort in a lot of the instances we see, given the differing degrees of difficulty and strain we see with the powers he and Denethor exhibit more frequently and consistently.

This is is also interesting wrt Éowyn, because Tolkien describes Faramir's perception of her as "clear sight" (which I suspect is just Tolkien's preferred parlance for "clairvoyance"). Faramir perceives a lot more of what's going on with Éowyn than I think he had materially observable evidence for—but does not see everything that's going on with her by any means. He seems to understand basically everything about her feelings for Aragorn, more than Éowyn herself does, but does not know if she loves him [Faramir].

I'm guessing that it's more difficult to "see" this way when it's directly personal (one of the tragedies of his and Denethor's relationship is that their shared mental powers do not enable either to realize how much they love each other). But it also doesn't seem like he's trying to overcome Éowyn's mental resistance the way he was with Gollum, and possibly Frodo and Sam—he does handle it a bit differently when it's not a matter of critical military urgency. With Éowyn, he sees what his abilities make clear to him, is interested enough to seek out Merry (and also perceive more than Merry says, because Faramir has never been a normal person one day in his life) but doesn't seem to really push either of them.

So I tend to imagine that with someone like Faramir, Denethor, Aragorn etc, we're usually seeing a relatively passive, natural form of low-grade telepathy that simply derives from their fundamental nature and personalities (as we see in Faramir with Éowyn, possibly Faramir with Aragorn). That can be kicked up to more powerful, forceful telepathy via active exertion of the will (as described by Gandalf wrt Denethor's ability to "bend[] his will thither" to see what passes in others' minds, and seen with Faramir vs Gollum, Aragorn vs the Mouth of Sauron, more subtly Faramir vs Denethor). At a high point of strain this can be done very aggressively or defensively (Denethor vs Gandalf, Denethor vs Saruman, Denethor vs Sauron seriously is there a Maia that man won't fight, Faramir vs the Black Breath given his completely unique symptoms that Aragorn attributes to his "staunch will", possibly Aragorn vs the Black Breath in a healing capacity...).

Anyway, I hope these massive walls of text are helpful or interesting! Thanks for the ask :)

[erendur]

In the chronology he made for himself of the Great March (of Elves going to Valinor, Tolkien writes :

"The March begins in VY 1129. The great host of 20,000 goes very slowly (2,000 miles to go) ; it has to provide food, clothing, etc en-route, though it had the help of the Valar via Oromë. It proceeds mainly in the late spring to early autumn : April to September. The general process is to make a period of marching and then to halt for repairs, cloth-making or fur-curing, and rest."

Now, that sounds very reasonable, but Elves being Elves I can't help but to have that vision of them going to Oromë like "We're sorry, Lord Oromë, but we really have to take a break now because you see, Shining Bright Star had that really great vision about the new Fall/Winter collection. One word : mordoré. Right ? You see the urgency ? Yes, yes, the forces of evil are chasing us but..."

[stellavesperis]

I hope your are doing better :)

I found these notes of Tolkien's in Nature of Middle Earth and thought of you :

"Language we must suppose was a specifically Elvish gift, not possessed by the Valar even until they found the Quendi ; a gift of Eru inherent in their nature, so that from their Awakening they immediately began to try to communicate in speech with one another. Men had a similar gift, but less marked and less skilled, as they were less skilled in all artistic matter : language being the primary art ; hence their ruder tongues were much improved by contact, later, with Quendi". (italics are Tolkien's) (Vaguely Chomskian undertones ?)

This from a note on the chronology about the Awakening of the Elves, in which he states : "Also, which is important, time to invent the beginnings of the Primitive Quentin language."

This is how further away he imagines the "discovery of language" (as told in a legend, though) : "Imin, Tata, and Enel awoke before their spouses, and the first thing that they saw was the stars, for they woke in the early twilight before dawn. And the next thing they saw was their destined spouse lying asleep on the green sward beside them. Then they were so enamoured of their beauty that their desire for speech was immediately quickened and they began to "think of words" to speak and sing in."

This one made me think of Rousseau's (as, in the XVIIIth century Swiss philosopher) theory of the origin of language (not supported by modern linguistic theory, I bet !) : he thought that at first, humans were solitary creatures, who lived on their own, and that they just met to mate, which is how language first evolved, in the form of songs : songs to woo and seduce a mate (like birds).

I'm doing a little bit better! Thank you for checking in. And thank you so much for thinking of me!!! :DDDDDD Wait, that's so interesting-- so even the Valar did not know language before the Quendi? That makes sense-- I suppose the Music itself was its own means of communication for the Ainur. But yes, vaguely Chomskian undertones of UG-- clearly, the Elves were born either with the capacity to create language or with innate knowledge of it. I love that music still plays an important role in the creation of language in Tolkien's world, that they needed words to sing, not just speak. (For my part, I do agree that there is a universal capacity and desire for language in all humans, so in that sense, I lightly subscribe to Universal Grammar, but certain theories that get tacked onto it cause me to be a fair bit more skeptical XD). Interesting theory on the origin of language! It seems a bit off on an anthropological perspective, but it definitely does seem similar to how it emerged in Arda. I'm actually not super versed on theories regarding the origins of the first language, but I knew someone who was researching this pretty recently, and I might ask them more about it because it is very fascinating. My understanding is that it's 90% speculation XD; it may be better to explore the origin of languages from a biological, anthropological, or evolutionary psychological perspective. But I do remember music being somehow linked to porto-language, if my memory serves correctly.

[kathrins-sketchbook]

Oh, brightest sun (TRSB 2023)

A hommage to Gustav Klimt's The Kiss. Acrylic paint on canvas, with gold acrylic colour, 45x45cm. This scene had fascinated me ever since I read about it in the Nature of Middle-earth, and even more so when I became obsessed with Mîm as a character. While the ship of Mîmrod was born in a discord server I am in as a joke, that joke led to me originally drafting the sketch for this painting.

@goschatewabn has taken up this prompt- in a pinchhit no less - and has written, a beautiful, beautiful, fic that also absolutely tears my heart out. Find more info & the link to the fic below!

The elf shone more brilliantly than the purest gems they had unearthed, and his kind face crowned with a wreath of white lilac was like the first rays of dawn after a long night.

The gentle sun had risen in the east, and had brought spring into Nargothrond.

5180 Words

Rating: T Archive warnings: None Characters: Mîm, Finrod Felagund, the petty dwarves, various inhabitants of Nargothrond, dwarves of Nogrod https://archiveofourown.org/works/49927210/chapters/126046690

@tolkienrsb

[consultinghuntertimelord]

I love the fact that Elves actually talk super fast normally, and have to consciously slow down when talking to humans. They are not beating the patronizing allegations.

[aureentuluva70]

WHAT DO YOU MEAN "IN THE STORY OF MAELOR"???!!!! LIKE MAGLOR??!! WHAT STORY??!!! I NEED TO KNOOOOOOOWWWWW-

[lamemaster]

Elves and Middle-Earth

Okay gather Tolkien nuts, I have a question (I am genuinely curious).

I've seen so many posts about the Nature of Middle Earth excerpt that removing Eldar from Middle-Earth was not Eru's design. Doing so resulted in diminishing elves of Middle-Earth and taking away their guidance from their younger brethren, men.

Now my question is, if Aman was not a part of Iluvatar's plans for elves, why re-shape the world and go on an entire ordeal with the Numenorians? Wouldn't making Arda inaccessible make it harder for elves to return? Why would Eru allow elves to be separated from Middle-Earth later in the legendarium?

What about the Vanyar and Teleri, for whom Aman became a permanent residence and they did not experience the Doom as the Noldor did? Was their connection to Middle-Earth destined to be lesser than the Noldor?

What would have leaving elves in the Middle-Earth have meant for the Halls of Mandos and re-birth? Would the elves who died in Middle-Earth be reborn in Aman as in cannon or would they be reincarnated back to Middle-Earth?

While researching I found another excerpt from Morgoth's Ring-

"For of this summons came

many woes that after befell; yet those who hold that the Valar

erred, thinking rather of the bliss of Valinor than of the Earth,

and seeking to wrest the will of Iluvatar to their own pleasure,

speak with the tongues [read tongue] of Melkor"(P. 162)

Does this excerpt mean that narratives that were said to argue that bringing elves to Valinor had been an error and the Valar's disobedience to the will of Illuvatar were influenced by Melkor? We do hear a similar argument from Feanor who thinks that the Valar are conspiring against the elves by keeping them away from Middle Earth and in return favoring men.

Lastly- if Aman is not THE place for Elves then why do they feel the pull towards the sea and Valinor in general? (I think it is mentioned in LOTR or the Hobbit)

(P.S.- I know I have a bias towards the Valar and that my arguments favor them so for this post specifically please ignore if you can sense me simping for them)

I am confusion.

[glorf1ndel]

Thinking about Tolkien’s observation that the Valar were wrong to bring the Elves to Valinor 👀 Do I contemplate this on a daily basis? Quite possibly.

[aracaranelentari]

Finished reading Nature of Middle-Earth! Here's a line concerning the Cuiviénen days that stood out to me: "During Oromë's absence [Melkor's] emissaries were busy, and many lies circulate. The "heresy" awakes in new form: the Valar clearly do exist; but they have abandoned Endor: rightly as the appointed realm of the Quendi. Now they are becoming jealous, and wish to control the Quendi as vassals, and so re-possess themselves of Endor. Finwë, a gallant and adventurous young quende, direct descendant of Tata, is much taken by these ideas; less so his friend Elwë, descendant of Enel." (NoME p.95)

So Melkor spread lies about the Valar to the elves of Cuiviénen, saying that they are jealous of the Quendi, and want to control them. This... is the same thing he does centuries later after being unchained; the lies he sows within the Ñoldor in Aman are really just re-worded versions of what he told the Quendi at Cuiviénen.

And, most interestingly to me, Finwë is said to be taken by the original lies, though his belief in them likely dissipated after visiting Aman. But like father like son, right? It's his eldest son Fëanor who is the most vocal about Melkor's later lies.

I wonder how Finwë felt during the unrest of the Ñoldor in Aman. He's said to be "greatly troubled" in the Silmarillion, and honestly it makes sense. He's hearing his people spread lies he's heard before. History is repeating itself.

[anghraine]

cressida-jayoungr replied to this post:

Wait, what's this about squirrels? That's one I haven't run across!

It's one of the many factoids from Tolkien's essay on Númenor in The Nature of Middle-earth! He talks about gender and relationships with animals there:

they [Númenórean women] were generally nearer to men than is the case with most races in stature and strength, and were agile and fleet of foot in youth. Their great delight was in dancing (in which many men also took part) at feasts or in leisure time ... But nearly all women could ride horses, treating them honourably, and housing them more nobly than any other of their domestic animals. The stables of a great man were often as large and as fair to look upon as his own house. Both men and women rode horses for pleasure ... and in ceremony of state both men and women of rank, even queens, would ride, on horseback amid their escorts or retinues ... The Númenóreans trained their horses to hear and understand calls (by voice or whistling) from great distances; and also, where there was great love between men or women and their favorite steeds, they could (or so it is said in ancient tales) summon them at need by their thought alone. So it was also with their dogs. For the Númenóreans kept dogs, especially in the country, partly by ancestral tradition, since they had few useful purposes any longer ... It was men rather than women who had a liking to keep dogs as "friends". Women loved more the wild (or "unowned") birds and beasts, and they were especially fond of squirrels, of which there were great numbers in the wooded country. ...The woods of Númenor abounded in squirrels, mostly red, but some dark brown or black. These were all unafraid, and readily tamed. The women of Númenor were specially fond of them. Often they would live in trees near a homestead, and would come when invited into the house. (NOME 325-326, 335-6)

Conclusion: a) Númenóreans were, as a people, significantly larger than other humans, b) Númenórean women were more similar in size and strength to the men of their people than is usual among humans, and c) these gigantic women liked to befriend normal squirrels.

[erendur]

"VY 1130/90 /AY 18810 : Either by chance, machinations of Sauron, and/or because Oromë withdraws protection hoping to make the Eldar less content with their new Home (the east bank of the Anduin during the Great March), winters are hard and the weather worsens."

From the chronology of the Great March in Nature of Middle Earth. Oromë had to turn the heating off to try and convince the Elves to finally stop making clothes (and begetting children) and finally move their asses to Valinor.

[orofeaiel]

Journey through Middle Earth

[vigilantegreen]

I honestly feel like nobody in lotr mentions how fucking weird Legolas is. He stays up pacing the floor and singing to himself in the dead of night. He deadass stares straight into the tree line in the absolute pitch black when no one else can see anything. He yells goodbye to a river he has heard about in songs. He's so strange and not one character mentions it AT ALL. I absolutely love him.

[tathrin]

Just for brainstorming, you could have lights derived from elvish signals/flares that aren’t visible by everybody. It might be because because of the mix of the objects size and elf vision. The post gives the actual excerpts from NOME with the names for the object in sindarin and quenya. The ‘flashing glass/crystal’ sounds more similar to Galadriel’s vial rather than pyrotechnics.

https://www.tumblr.com/helyannis/658786173364404224/galadhremmin-galadhremmin-galadhremmin-a

Oh oh this is fascinating, anon, thank you so much!

The link for anyone on mobile or something who can't easily copy it into a new tab etc: https://www.tumblr.com/helyannis/658786173364404224/galadhremmin-galadhremmin-galadhremmin-a