#but it just goes to show how often this happens in media and fandom relationships

[bicheetopuff]

This might not mean anything to anyone but seeing the hate towards deku for losing his quirk and becoming a teacher feels a lot like the discourse about Cars 3 a few years ago when people were mad that Lightning got old and became Cruz’ crew chief.

And what’s crazy is both of them still got their happy ending. Deku still got to be a Hero and Lightning still got to keep racing. And I actually think it’s even better cuz they both have legacies since Deku has Kai, Eri, Kota, and all of his other students and Lightning is getting to train Cruz like Doc trained him. Yet people are/were still upset…

[ichayalovesyou]

Why Do Old-School TV Duos Have SUCH MLM Vibes?!

I think there’s something very specific about the formula and writing style of non-serialized/semi-serialized shows from the 60s to 80s that featured two grown men going on wacky dangerous adventures that makes my gay little literary analysis brain go absolutely off the wall bonkers. I’m trying to figure out why!

I’m writing this on my Trek blog because I don’t think this pattern in people actually shipping these types of relationships the way they do if fandom as we know it wasn’t born via TOS in syndication. That being said! I also think it has to do with the way these shows are designed that makes myself and others OBSESSED with a specific character dynamic that feels (to me) damn near impossible to replicate in modern television. In a way that’s more than just fandom, it’s in the way TV like this was written at the time!

Further explanation under the cut!

🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈🏳️‍🌈

I think what it usually boils down to is this. There’s a charming protagonist whom without the series could not operate, frequently top billed or the title character! (See: Wild Wild West, Starsky & Hutch) BUT he doesn’t have anyone to play off of! So what do they do pretty much every single time? Give Mr. Idealized Vision of Time-Period Masculinity For Genre a second guy to rhyme with!

See but the other guy has to play opposite but parallel to our hypermasculine protagonist. So what frequently ends up happening is that in order to play off our “normal” guy, even though he’s also a white dude, is that he’s still somehow Other.

They’re always perfect for each other, and they always get into scenarios that would be written, shot and interpreted by conventional audiences as romantic IF either one of those characters were a woman! Especially at the time these shows were made in.

If the one is aggressive, the other is gentle. If the protagonist is violent, his counterpart is intellectual. If the one is stoic, the other is emotional. Which (while one size def doesn’t fit all) usually makes the second guy come off as much more queer-coded (and sometimes other minorities like neurodivergent/disabled etc) than the other because of the traits associated with masculinity vs gayness at the time! Our prime examples in these gifs are Spock, Hutch, Artemus, and also *BJ!

*(M*A*S*H is a bit of a unique case since the show flirts with queerness more openly in ways that people more into the series have explained better than me but I think it still fits the formula I’m discussing.)

Here’s the thing though right? We’ve got two best friends, and the show NEVER really feels right if one of them is missing unless the focus of the story is how A & B operate without each other while trying to find the other one. They stick with and rescue each other unfailingly in scenarios that might destroy a regular friendship.

Hell, there’s often stuff that would emotionally/physically destroy a regular person/character in modern media. But because it’s not serialized they always seem to pull through seemingly through the power of friendship alone or dealing with it off-screen! Emotional consequences? Yuck! (Unless it’s M*A*S*H or Starsky & Hutch, like I said, not monolithic)

Here’s the thing that some people might say throws a wrench into the interpretation I’m discussing. What about the absolutely non-stop parade of conventionally attractive women the main protagonist (and less frequently the supporting man) goes through?

I would reply: how many of those female characters actually emotionally impact our protagonists as characters long term?

The answer is of course, because it’s NOT serialized, almost none! Kirk can watch Edith Keeler get killed by a car accident and still be making eyes at Spock the next episode. Hawkeye can have a “life changing” romance with a Vietnamese humanitarian woman, then share a blanket with BJ next episode like she never existed!

The Doylist explanation of course is not just the fact it wasn’t serialized but also just, constant, blatant 20th century sexism. Which SUCKS!!! As well as not wanting a long term love interest to throw off the character dynamic of our duderagonists. It’s the 20th century tv equivalent of bros before hoes.

However the Watsonian explanation always seems to result in no love interest EVER being more important than what the two protagonists have no matter whether you think they’re queer or not. No attractive woman could make our reputed babe-hound protagonist abandon his buddy. There’s no earnest romance our more queer-coded supporting man doesn’t end (or get ended for him) often for the protagonist’s sake.

Now some of these women are incredibly well written and straight up GOOD matches for our guys. So why wouldn’t they get involved in something long term UNLESS!! They were in love with each other the WHOLE time?

What if protagonist (frequently the babe hound) doesnt know he’s queer, or knows but doesn’t know he’s in love with his bestie, or any number of similar fruity explanations? The supporting man also runs into this explanation but people tend to believe he’s already aware that he’s queer but either also doesn’t know he’s in love or is keeping it to himself because time-period homophobia and/or thinking (probably not unreasonably) that babe hound is straight?

Between the inherent closeness of being narrative foils. The regularly scheduled life or death drama creating sometimes insanely romantic (in the narrative if not a literal sense) drama between the two. The revolving door of weekly women they never seem to get attached to enough to leave one another. The non-serialized nature resulting in sparse personal information/history about the protagonists as a result.

I think between the very NATURE of the way tv shows were written at the time. Plus the way fandom was shaped by a dynamic that has rippled through how media works and is interpreted by fans for decades upon decades. It’s not hard to imagine getting really emotionally invested in the possibility of the protagonists being in love is a fantastic way to enjoy the media!

In conclusion, it’s really fun and easy to go “these bitches gay! Good for them good for them!”

[franzkafkagf]

Just a little disclaimer I’m not asking this question to try to come across as hurtful or anything like that. But I was wondering how as an Aegon-stan his treatment of women can make you have a very nuanced opinion of him? :o

- Personally I’m TB but do have empathy for some TG-characters. I do like Aegon as an antagonist and I do feel for his very toxic and harmful upbringing but due to his violent behavior towards women.. I just can’t really connect that well with him 🫣

Hi! Thank you for your ask :) Super interesting question actually! I have written some things for him in the past, talking about what exactly fascinated me about his character so much ( exhibit one, two three, four and five )

I also urge you to listen to Tom talk about Aegon; this man gets him as a character so well and says it better than I ever could. Some interviews found here, here and here

I can understand not being able to connect with him because of his treatment of Dyana— it's an unforgiveable thing he has done to her and might have done to others. But in spite of that, he is still just a character. Everything he does is meant to inform us about his certain traits he has, even the ugliest of things.

What does it tell us about Aegon? He is entitled, doesn't take things seriously, he is indulgent and does not see Dyana (or other smallfolk for that matter) as a real person (succession reference wink wink)

I wouldn't call his behavior towards women in general toxic though— I actually think he is somewhat demure when faced with women like his mother, Rhaenyra and also Helaena. He seems to kick down most of the time, while trying to get recognition from the ones he sees as peers or above him.

If you look at the culture he was raised in, it's not really a surprise he turned out the way he did, seeing women beneath him as something he can just take if he likes to. Westeros is cartoonishly misogynistic; traditions like First Night or the prevelance of brothels filled with women working under harsh indentures show that.

Young men of noble origin seem to see visits to brothels (again, filled with women that do not want to be there) as a normal past time activity; it's so prevalent that it's surprising if a young nobleman does not participate. Now, I do not want to excuse his actions, but seeing the culture he grew up him and the influences around him? -> He probably thinks this is normal behaviour, disturbingly.

On a bit different note, I want to talk about his relationships. A thought I see often echoed in the fandom is the headcanon that Aegon is violent towards Helaena when that... was never stated anywhere? Now I'm probably biased because I'm a big Helaegon girl but I don't see him being violent with his sister.

People say he impregnated her at 13 when.. he was also just a 15 year old boy? He did not want to marry her! Both literally did not and could not consent to what happened to them, I think it's so sad that people try to demonize a child who just did what was demanded from him from all the adults in his life :(

(like yes tell me about how one of these KIDS forced himself on the other out of fully selfish desire and pure evil. you're so smart and do not lack media literacy whatsoever)

The dinner scene literally shows Helaena laugh at Aegon's antics until he goes a step too far w Baela, and what does Helaena do? She clowns him in front of everyone with her toast. And what does he do? He just takes it... not the behaviour of an evil abusive man but the delulus will swear otherwise.

People will also try to twist her crying at the coronation as some depressive moment for her where she realizes that he will have the ultimate power over her when that's LITERALLY just a (very boring) headcanon. It's hinted at in the text and literally written out in the script that she is scared, because she knows what crowning him means; the dance cannot be stopped. That's all, that's why she's crying. She feels like their end is near.

All in all I think no one can change your mind on how you feel about Aegon; what he did IS unforgivable, but I hope you see a bit of my pov here too. Seeing the nuance in deeply flawed characters and digging to find hidden depths in them is something I'm very passionate about! My Aegon girlie mutuals and me will be feasting come season 2 🙏

[wlwmk]

Can I get your honest opinion on this? As a newbie lok viewer I was pretty disgusted by what Asami did with Mako in book 2. He helps her company, and instead of helping a friend who's dealing with a bad breakup, she uses it as an opportunity. After your friend goes off to fight in a war, you immediately invite yourself to her ex's apartment and start touching/pursuing him? And then she left him in jail. What she did was trashy and she had the audacity to act like a victim. She didn't care that she might've sabotaged their entire krew dynamics.

Did you think it was in character for Mako to respond?

This was a pivotal moment for him b/c I don't think he'll be able to carry a relationship with any woman as long as his friend is a willing side chick. That's a huge issue she created for him

(Asami being "vulnerable" is no excuse"

THIS!

and you only mentioned the bad she did to korra, while she quite literally jumped on mako, non-consensually kissed him and pursuing him while he was emotionally vulnerable due to the break up and she knew. but she just acted selfishly because she wanted some comfort, not caring about either mako or korra, and had the audacity to act like a victim and be mad at mako for not staying with her as soon korra came back and not telling korra the truth (something mako get often blamed for by the fandom, while his move was genuinely smart given the context) while she could also tell herself what happened.

all of this are straight up facts but still.. the fandom seems to love interpret asami as the ultimate victim of the romance- and as someone who participated against this discourse for years, i observed fans seems to overprotect her bc they're either projecting themselves onto her. and also colorism bc why they're blaming korra about her acts in b1 while she was at least clear about her feelings for mako and wasn't friend with asami yet so she owned nothing towards her- while contextually asami did way worse in b2, they were all friends for a year, she saw them being together for over 6 months but has no problem to pursue him as soon she learned for the break up? this stink. like she's not the fair skinned teeny whiny princess people think she is lmao

but somehow she still seen as a victim, with all the responsibility wrongfully thrown at mako, like he still has some responsibility but the constant denying of the girls responsibility in the triangle love during the show is unfair bc they were genuinely all responsible.

also i could talk on how mako is a perfect example of male victim in fictional media who aren't knowledged both in the writing and by the watchers.

[chobani-flip]

buddie goggles and why you might enjoy wearing them more if you acknowledge them

so yeah, i think the buddie goggles are a real issue. (ive had them too, fellow shippers, no judgment) like, is it possible that buck and eddie will at some point start a deeply fulfilling romantic relationship? yes. is it what's happening on screen right now and what the show is 100% suggesting is imminent? no. sorry, it's just not.

look, the thing with analysing and interpreting any text is that it's very much about finding things that the text is doing, what could be there, looking at it from different angles and choosing to focus on certain aspects: that's why you have feminist readings of X and queer readings of Y, etc

but if you go looking at a text with the intention of looking for authorial intent and secret messages the author is leaving that only you and the fandom can pick up on correctly? that's such a slippery, tricky slope.

consider:

simply communicating ideas face to face to one single other person can often end in misunderstandings

communicating ideas in writing?... well, we live in the pissing on the poor era of the internet, don't we.

like, how many times have you read/written something, looked at the comments and gone: but...that's not what's there? like, interesting that you see it, but also, i don't know where you got that from

see where I'm going with this?

there is so much that goes into the making of a tv show besides the script and actors' delivery that i am absolutely not an expert on: costumes, set dressing, blocking, lighting, editing, soundtrack...

taking any of those aspects and analysing it and looking for connections is my favourite thing to do and read about and...

ngl, watching the show and looking for buddie in all of them is so much fun. i love it, it's what got me into 911 in the first place.

but i promise you, the moment you stop acknowledging that that's what you're doing, that what you're doing is a Buddie reading of 911, and instead proclaim it as the one single truth? that's when you set yourself up for a wild and not always pleasant ride.

and this isn't about having or not having faith in the writers or buddie or the one they call tim, and honestly, it's kind of telling that the word "faith" is used so often.

it's about accepting that while watching a tv show, we're all putting ourselves in a position of observing the shadows of plato's cave with binoculars on a low-visibility day. (ok. that's a really pretentious twatty thing to say, but i'll leave it there because i think the image is funny. ) and no amount of media literacy is going to give you a clear insight into the minds and intentions of all of the people creating the show (can we please stop shouting at people to get "media literacy" if they disagree with our interpretation of a text, even if what they're saying sounds dumb)

now, i don't know if yall were here for the TJLC thing back then, and I am absolutely not saying that what the Sherlock show did and what 911 is doing is in any shape or form similar, however, on tumblr and amongst the fandom, the lead-up to season 4 and then the secret fourth episode fallout felt exactly like what some parts of the 911 fandom are doing now. so... just take care, friends. and don't be dicks to people who disagree with you over a ship.

[louis-disciple]

I've often seen a lot of takes on abuse in the fandom. Some of which I agree with, some of which I don't.

And I see a lot of takes which run like this:

A: Lestat dropped Louis! That's abuse!

B: No it's not! This is a gothic genre. It's their nature as Vampires! Abuse doesn't exist!

C: Lestat is an abuser but Louis abused him back so it cancels out!

And on and on it goes like this in circles. Though out of three, one of these responses to the show I can say with chest that I completely disagree with.

But let me tackle the first response. Though Lestat does drop Louis this only shows the height of the abuse. It is not because Louis is dropped and broken after this but the consistency of abuse that makes the drop not surprising but expected. Lestat is often the aggressor. In saying the drop defines the abuse would be wrong because you could also argue that when Louis pushes Lestat into the wall after he got turned is abuse. Which would be wrong. What defines Abuse:

Abuse is defined as a pattern of behavior in which one person uses power and control to harm, manipulate, or dominate another individual.

The key word here is 'pattern'. I hope all of us know that Abuse can happen not only physically for all our sakes.

Lestat emotionally manipulates Louis, attacks his self esteem and then after violent or intense episodes between each other, would downplay Louis emotions or 'make up' for them in giving gifts (After the 'I heard your hearts dancing' he goes on to support Louis on a business venture | After the Drop he also does this in giving back gifts)

One other thing that makes Lestat be defined as an Abuser is that he does these things with intent to keep Louis close (control him). Though it is reactionary to what he is feeling the way he goes about it is wrong. What was Lestat's goal in beating and dropping Louis if not for punishing him for not even choosing Claudia over him but thinking of it?

This leads to the second response. The genre is gothic. Gothic genre is described as:

Gothic literature and media often explore dark and complex themes, including horror, mystery, and the supernatural, as well as intense emotional experiences such as suffering and despair.

This does not excuse nor erase the abuse. Instead this should be a prompt to the audience to take the content and have discussions and provoke thoughts on how that abuse plays into their dynamic. You have these fucked up characters that it's almost impossible to see who is the Big Bad.

That's because it is. This is a reflection of life. Louis was abused. Lestat was an abuser. But the love was there. The abuse does not cancel out the love. The toxicity is so intertwined with the love, you cannot separate it. There are relationships that are like this out in the world. Interview with the vampire forces us to confront the grey area of this relationship. The power imbalance. It does not excuse the abuse. It will never excuse the abuse. But it does show us that it's not black or white.

Is Lestat a good person? Simple answer? No. Is Louis a good person? Simple answer? No.

Lestat is also a complex character with moments of vulnerability and affection, these do not negate the abusive patterns of behavior that define his relationship with Louis. Just because Lestat was an abuser does not mean he will stay like that forever. That is the point of the show. Your actions do not define who you are but rather the choices you make to overcome the consequences of those actions and make right with it.

Just because they are not good people does not mean they deserve the abuse they have faced in their childhood or from their partner, for Lestat and Louis respectively.

This show is supposed to make us think. Not excuse these actions but rather the portrayal of abuse in the story should be critically examined, and its impact on the characters and the narrative should be understood within the context of the genre.

And lastly my response to the last response in the fandom. While Louis’ actions—such as physical retaliation or emotional withdrawal—are often responses to Lestat’s abuse, they do add to the overall destructive nature of his and Lestat's relationship.

Though Louis isn’t abusive by intent or nature, his participation in the cycle of violence and dysfunction complicates the situation. This doesn’t make him an abuser, but it does mean he’s involved in a mutually harmful relationship, where both parties contribute to the ongoing conflict, even if one is clearly the aggressor in the relationship.

I've focused a lot on Loustat here though and I still want to say much about Loumand and Claudia & Lestat. So that's my two cents and half on that.

[supercalime]

i heard about the whole jatp drama, and i totally get your worries in that regard 😭 sooo often a show has something great going for itself, just for the creators to fuck up so badly that it's almost unfathomable sksksk (also looking at the umbrella academy season 4 disaster). gotta say that at this point, i think i will leave 911 behind fr if bucktommy aren't together anymore. i am out with one foot simply because i only watch certain storylines while skipping others, some characters haven't interested or excited me in literal years. but i love buck. after so many years of watching him try to find real happiness, and with the show slowly reaching a point where imo it's seriously time to wrap it up very soon, i cannot imagine that they will manage to strike gold the way they did with bucktommy ever again. tommy is the first love interest of buck that they actually tried to integrate into the world and the firefam. tommy got the seal of approval, we see buck seemingly finally reach that point in life he was searching for. making him go through ANOTHER breakup just to introduce ANOTHER love interest, nullifying all that bucktommy has established? there is a limit for how often you can press the reset button, and we have reached it with buck a long time ago. let the man finally have something else to work towards. we need a breath of fresh air in here. i am optimistic about s8, and i will live no matter what happenes, but i think that would be my final straw to disconnect from 911 amd canon buck ngl 🤔 fingers crossed that bucktommy is alive and well because it's got sm potential!! 🙌

Couldn’t agree more bestie!

Tbf my reaction to the jatp bs is on me haha. Everything was more intense in 2020/2021 for obvious reasons so it wasn’t surprising for me to have latched on to a tv show and relying on it for my mental well being. But all that bullshit made me learn to change my mindset and behavior on how to interact with media and fandom, which is to have the bar so low it’s in hell.

Anyway, back to 911. I wouldn’t blame you for stopping to watch the show at any point if it’s not interesting any more. I’m not even a fan of this one. I saw bits and pieces throughout the years as one tends to do with procedurals and didn’t want to have my experience tainted with the fanon ship that shall not be named. In fact, I’ve followed lone star from the beginning and I think I still prefer it over the og.

Now onto buck and his relationships. I completely agree with what you said about hitting the reset button over and over. Procedurals tend to stall instead of committing to a solid change unless they get repetitive and/or write themselves into a corner (which both apply to buck here). So yeah, it would be a disservice to bucks character if he yet again goes through another breakup and the cycle keeps going, specially since tommy was pretty well received as his LI unlike all the other ones that weren’t meant to last from the beginning (Abby, Ali), were the wrong person for him (Taylor) or were forced down our throats (Natalia - there was so much telling and not showing how “right” their relationship was, it’s embarrassing).

So, unless there’s outside factors preventing tommy to come back and stay for good (contracts, conflicting schedules, etc), it makes no sense for bucktommy to not continue on the path they are going.

I want bucktommy to thrive, but I won’t hold my breath waiting just yet. If they are broken up or eventually will break up (which I must emphasize I do not want cause I ship them with all my heart) I might quit the show as well. Buck and Tommy were a breath of fresh air and I would love to see what could happen to them if we are lucky enough to see their romance continue

[ilikekidsshows]

DATS Rant: The Ultimate Spider-Man Is a Masterpiece

Hot take: The Ultimate Spider-Man is the most thematically cohesive Spider-Man show I’ve seen.

All the Youtubers who rag on this show always point to individual scenes and lines as dumb and claim that the show has bad writing because of them. Frankly, I’ve found myself despising the writing on several shows that have a lot of good scenes the fandom goes wild over because the show’s theming is broken or outright missing. coughMiraculouscough

The thing about theming is that it can really work to enforce what your story is about. If your themes don’t work, vanish or aren’t even a consideration, your story is thin. Many current stories struggle with theming, by which I mean things seem to happen without reason. I’m not talking about just kids’ media either, adult shows also seem to have events strung together more just to be shocking instead of in order to say something.

It’s actually pretty easy to do a show-wide theme like family, friendship, the horrors of war or how broken people often have broken relationships. You just need to bring it up every now and again. The problem seems to be story arcs with themes. This is because having a theme in a story means building events up to a certain conclusion that supports said theme. It means predictability and there seems to be a weird allergy for that going on.

The theming in The Ultimate Spider-Man is actually very visible in its handling of the Venom arc. Youtubers with no concept of theming don’t understand why Harry Osborn becomes Venom. Here’s the thing: Harry’s relationships with both Peter and his dad begin deteriorating as soon as Spider-Man shows up. It’s also without him knowing it, in the case of Peter. “Venom” means “poison”. Spider-Man poisons Harry’s relationships with his dad and Peter. It’s poetic.

This is why it’s important that Peter starts off disliking his new teammates. They’re often literally getting between him and Harry, just like Peter’s duty as Spider-Man is figuratively between them, pushing them apart.

This is also why Harry becomes Anti-Venom as part of the arc that leads up to Peter revealing his secret identity to Harry. “Anti-Venom” is basically another word for a counter-poison. Their relationship is being healed, the poison is being countered. Fittingly, the story where Harry becomes Anti-Venom is also the one where Norman Osborn gets redeemed.

Harry becomes the Anti-Spider-Man, then he becomes Venom, then he becomes Anti-Venom and then he becomes Harry again. That’s an arc, those are themes. This show is good.

Video version

[mdhwrites]

🦝 Wanted to know, do you think Camilla being more frequent in the story serves for something? Besides adding to Luz's character (which I didn't really feel significant towards for other reasons). She's the protag's mom, she cares about her kid, she's a good person with no bad bone (kinda bland). I'm just thinking after Eda being pushed twoards the motherly side so much do we even need Camila to fit that role anymore? She seems on board with Luz's shenanigans just because, no restrictions what so ever.

Camila… is the opposite of Raine. Amazing character who's actively detrimental to the story almost just by existing? Especially as she is. Because she is a practical saint at this point with how much understanding she shows about everything… And that's a problem when it comes to Luz's character.

And one I'm not going to talk about because criticizing Luz gets you lit on fire by this fandom and I don't feel like it.

Instead, let's talk about the rest that has to do with her. Like your point with Eda! Why does Luz grab onto Eda so much when she has a mom who shows her such love and care? Who, as far as the show has depicted, has literally only ever once tried to repress her child and that's after Luz accidentally assaulted her principal with snakes. So, you know, did her job as a mom by being like "Child, you do not bring dangerous animals you cannot control to school. Here are consequences." Meanwhile, Eda is her magic teacher but it takes close to Adventure in the Elements for Eda and Luz to even have a truly amicable relationship. Before then, it's fairly transactional and with Eda not being all that on board with the idea of actually taking care of this weird human thing. It's not actively hostile (always) before then but it takes a WHILE and the show doesn't really let them actually spend a lot of dedicated time together. How many episodes do they spend where their story is about the two spending time together in S1? This same question goes for King btw and is really detrimental to the found family angle of TOH.

Amphibia got around this problem of giving Anne a loving set of parents and a found family by having the show actually be about the fucking Plantars and Anne. At least like three quarts of season 1 of Amphibia is just dedicated to their growing relationship and understanding of each other. How they conflict, how they better each other. By the end of S1, you understand why they call each other family because they've been through so much. They don't even have to have almost died for each other to earn that claim. TOH… Honestly kind of does really need to be able to say "I sacrificed myself for you so we MUST be close."

Because otherwise… What does Eda give Luz that Camila never did? Eda judges Luz WAAAAAAAY fucking more than Camila ever did. Eda mocks Luz more. Eda dismisses Luz's interests and eccentricities more. I know this may sound wild because of 'mama Eda' but more of you need to remember how often Luz ran off from Eda in S1 because Eda wasn't doing something Luz was interested in or was just not willing to actually do her job as teacher.

The other side of things I'll touch on is her turning out to be a secret nerd. I think this was a terrible choice on SO MANY LEVELS. It creates an almost us vs. them feel where Luz appears to think Camila can only ever have shown her understanding by being the same as her, all the backfill and retconning to make it happen makes Camila look like a questionable parent because while supporting your child is one thing, NEVER being willing to criticize them is an entirely different one and… It also took away perhaps the most unique thing about Camila:

She was a good parent who showed her child understanding… While being one who could never relate.

In most media where you have the outcast child, you have one of two parents. The quirky older generation that is very much so just like their child and so if they don't get along, it's because they do it the old ways or are a bit too caring. That or you get Stoic and Hiccup from How to Train Your Dragon. The parent who doesn't understand and doesn't approve of their child's outcast ways until the child proves the effectiveness of their ways and gets their approval.

Now, both of these aren't bad. I love Stoic and Hiccup and the generational thing can often provide good comedy and its own unique frictions, even if it's done less. Camila was genuinely special though. She appeared to be someone who'd never properly understand fandom or Luz's obsession with things being online or how she'd obsess over one character and she was FINE WITH THAT. She was okay with Luz being the way she was so long as it didn't hurt anyone. And when it did, what did Camila focus on?

Not the life skills. Not the attempt to make her more normal. Camila focused on the fact that it might bring Luz more friends. Because Camila didn't want those odd parts of Luz gone, she wanted her daughter to be happy and she didn't think the things that gave her success would lead to making Luz happy. But friends? Friends are a good bet for anyone.

But no, just, you know, throw that out. She's always been a nerd. She's always had some in to Luz's world. Maybe not a perfect one, she still doesn't watch anime, but she knows the struggles and joys so why wouldn't she be able to support them? Why wouldn't she support them in the first place? I mean, they COULD have actually gone with "I don't want her suffering the same pain as me," which they try to claim, but… Camila would have had to be more condemnatory then. If being a nerd and an outcast hurt her, and she doesn't want Luz hurt, why didn't she do more to stop Luz from developing these weird hobbies and interests?

And here is where we get to the biggest problem with Camila: She is a subversion without a point. The Isles are VERY obviously meant to be Luz's real home. It is where she is meant to be spiritually. Most media that decides to make the magical other world simply the more appealing option, the one that is across the board better for the main character, makes their home life shit. This is so favoring that world and eventually staying there permanently makes sense for the character and the narrative. You root for them to do so.

Making Camila so good complicates that a lot. It raises a lot of questions that could be explored… With a lot of time and a LOT more criticism of Luz. Vee is RIGHT when she calls out Luz for being a fucking terrible person for running away from her mom for the reasons she did. That she did have it good and had the potential to have it be a lot better. I have a blog saved in drafts about how Yesterday's Lie irrevocably changed my opinion on Luz because it pointed out blatantly the fact that lie referenced… Is a lot of what Luz claimed was other's faults when they were her own.

But the show doesn't have the time nor the interest to actually tackle the questions. Instead, Camila continues to be such a saint that she barely has a character. She'd live in the Isles if it made Luz happy.

Because like so much of the show, Camila starts as a good idea that feels like they were made that way to claim they were special without doing anything special with them. Also still talked about Luz more than I meant to. Kind of hard with the character's mother I guess. Can't wait for this to be the post to gain traction then. *sigh* ======

I have a public Discord for any and all who want to join!

I also have an Amazon page for all of my original works in various forms of character focused romances from cute, teenage romance to erotica series of my past. I have an Ao3 for my fanfiction projects as well if that catches your fancy instead, If you want to hang out with me, I stream from time to time and love to chat with chat.

And finally a Twitter you can follow too!

[aurorechaton]

Controversial and/or aggressive brambleclaw take for the warrior cats fandom incoming...

Let me just say that I won't argue any further on this. I haven't read the newest arcs, and I don't want to. I tried reading the arc with Alderheart and Twigbranch twice, and I still couldn't tell you what happened. I literally blocked it out both times.

I've been a warrior cats kid for my entire life. It was the first multi-book series I red on my own, I read the main arcs 7-10 times in roughly 4 years, trust me, I was OBSESSED.

But I was never a part of online fandom culture. I lived under a rock, I didn't have any social media, I barely saw the animations on youtube, and I never looked any deeper. I think that's why I'm so horrified by the fandom take on everything to do with the leafpool-squilf-brambleclaw/star-hawkfrost-the three-etc. thing.

CONTEXT:

When I was a child, I loved leafpool. I was never a big fan of squilf, and I can admit that may cloud some of my takes. I am going to arguably be defending Brambleclaw up until the end of the fourth arc, but I don't think I'll be doing it in the way you think?

THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE:

I was genuinely SO MAD , while the sisters were warning Brambleclaw not to interact with Hawkfrost.

While we as an audience know that they were correct to do so, I related heavily to Bramble's need to connect with family. Maybe it was the way I vividly remembered how Firestar kept thinking about how Bramble looked like Tiger I, maybe it was everything that Tawny went through, maybe it was just my intense need to see warrior cats who overcame prejudice, but I hated the way Leafpool approached the whole situation. Rather than attempt to connect with Bramble, her clanmate, and the tom courting her sister, she only interacted with him to speak badly about Hawkfrost. She literally had her in with Moth, right there. She almost always stuck her foot in her mouth, failed to provide much evidence, or to connect with him on an emotional level.

FACTS v FEELINGS, + my attempt to fight what I think are the most prevalent views? If you don't think this way, this post isn't about you.

Squilf's arguments were more convincing, but facts and logic won't win when what you are arguing against is emotional connections. It certainly didn't for Leafpool, or any cat with a cross-clan relationship who KNEW it was only hurting them. You can't out-logic the heart. I should think we all know that.

I believe the moonkitti video, (which I will being using as a rough reference, since it helpfully gives direct quotes,) about Bramblestar was the most aggravating for this particular reason. The excerpts given in the video often take such a lens that is presumably only about facts, when warrior cats is a soap opera, it's about the emotional connections. Squilf, for example, tells Bramble that Leaf doesn't Like Hawk, but admits she hadn't bothered asking why, and questions why Bramble would ever feel an emotional connection with his half-brother. I find this extremely hypocritical. Bramble has shown himself to be extremely obsessed with the way the clan sees him, his father, and the connection between them. Squilf should know by now that Bramble feels much stronger about keeping his connection with Tawny that vice versa. Moonkitti also implies that because Squilf doesn't even imply something, it's the same as denying it, which, pointedly she doesn't do. (not five minutes later, the video also shows an excerpt where Bramble doesn't tell Squilf something, and she immediately takes this as a sign of hostility and rejection. He didn't imply that with his voice, posture, or words, and they literally just had an argument. Bramble is clearly just insecure and in his own head. She's supposed to be the more socially adjusted one.)

When he jumps immediately to emotional responses, so does she, claiming that Bramble clearly doesn't know anything about her, but clearly the same goes the other way around, so I find this extremely wild. I could understand her offense in the moment, but it goes round and round like this every time, and at no point does she attempt to clear the air on a previous conversation in a patient or genuine way. I'm not saying she has to, but I think it is something at least worth noting. While everyone agrees she's attempting to reconcile with him, I would argue she does it it the worst way possible for him specifically.

Bramble is willing to accept her apologies, and will apologize himself later, but just because he's willing to forgive doesn't mean he's over it, and he's clearly been slow to trust anyone with what happens in his head. Mans spends way too much time thinking if you ask me. Was the most annoying part of the series. She then tells him off for gossiping with Hawk at a gathering. And yes, what they were saying was rude, but Squilf makes it sound paradoxically like disliking Onewisker's decision is somehow being disloyal to Thunderclan, because Onewisker is friendly to the clan, and also only unacceptable because he was discussing it with Hawkfrost. Plenty of cats in previous books would have been considered grumpy but loyal for expressing those kinds of opinions. I find it odd that she tells him off for criticizing someone he has no moral or personal allegiance to. She also deflects every question he asks her, no matter how genuine or asinine, which honestly does feel like an implication.

Which is why I don't like seeing Squilf as the sole victim here. Yes, she's a victim. Considering that when she realizes she still wants Bramble, she's been given a great out and he has made no attempt at winning her favor again (no honeymoon phase), and then she doesn't even bring up her issues with Hawkfrost again (supposedly the catalyst for all of this). This doesn't feel like her being manipulated back into a relationship; this feels like shitty writing. The fact that the narrative makes no move to actually reconcile them is not Bramble's fault, it's the Erins.

I think Moonkitti best exemplifies my frustration with this particular issue by saying "when he, again, criticizes her for being distrusting and being rude to Hawkfrost", which, in this situation, she was actually directly attacking HIM, almost more so than Hawkfrost. From his point of view, I wonder if it doesn't sound exactly like that. (She will continue to do this. It will only get worse.) Instead of Leaf and Squilf being worried Bramble is being dragged into this while he's emotionally vulnerable, they both begin to berate him instead of connecting with him. Why does anyone think that should work for them? They may be objectively right, but their arguments are not at all persuading. (Proabably on purpose, damn Erins shakes fist)

Not Defending Everything, OBVIOUSLY:

In the next line, of course, Bramble says he'd never choose someone else over her. (and if I were to fix this the only way fandom can, I'd interpret this to be a showcase of his desperate need to be trusted; a false promise to return that trust. In context I think the Erins mean this literally, so... eh, not a great moment for him, no.) This, I think we can safely say is objectively false in that moment, although not outright malicious.

In this case, the relationship is abusive not due to the will of the individuals, but because of the outside pressures of the horrible system the Erins have built that must not be questioned. When the Erins make terrible narrative decisions to defend their biased world-building, we're supposed to blame them, and work to remedy the situation within the fandom, not accept it as gospel. It's what we do with Hollyleaf and Ashfur, or any of their decisions about where dead cats go.

Yes, Bramble is horrible to Squilf, Warrior Cats is an inherently misogynistic story, this is hardly the first time toms treat their mates horribly. Given my experience with warriors, in none of the 7 times I read through this arc, even disliking the relationship, did it seem particularly toxic because of Bramble. Usually, it was Squilf being forced into courting because of the expectations of clan life, and Bramble doing what a lot of other toms did; flirting with her, seeing her as incapable of defending herself, especially from other men, etc.

SOCIAL INTERACTIONS IN WARRIORS:

I've seen people ragging on the fact that Bramble hesitated to free Firestar, despite the fact that he was being actively manipulated, something shady was going on in his clan, he was isolated, and was afraid that Fire would accuse him, something that from his earlier distrust of Bramble as a kit because of his EYES, might even seem reasonable when Hawkfrost seemed (before that point) to be the perfect example of people only seeing their pelts. He also has a right to hesitate to figure out what to do next, seeing as Hawkfrost clearly wasn't just going to let this go? Idk, pretty nit-picky in both directions.

Before the journey over the mountains, Bramble only has an established relationship (From his perspective) with Tawny and maybe squilf? Even they are pretty distant. Bramble is never shown hanging out with other cats in the clan, or even thinking about particular cats he wants to get back to. If I didn't know about the third and fourth arcs I would have told you that Bramble's arc would only be resolved by connecting with Fire, or by leaving the clan entirely. Personally, I would have had Leafpool be his draw back to the clan, a brown tabby, Firestar's daughter, a calm and intensely caring cat, who cares so much about family and her clan, I wanted to see Fire basically become Bramble's surrogate father in the second arc it HURT.

On the other side, Ashfur IS set up with a sort of clique (although it quickly disintegrates because by this point the Erins were done writing genuine friendships outside of siblings.), and does appear to be close with other cats before his introduction. We have no reason to believe his is insecure about his relationships with others, and no reason to believe his reputation in the clan is in any danger (even if it's just in his own head). This is what, to me, separates the two sides of our love triangle. Bramble almost always backs off the second he sees Squilf with another cat, and I believe that if the Erins were less stubborn, or Brambleclaw had any other friends, their relationship might well have died out naturally. Ashfur on the other hand is just a creep. I don't like him, never did.

I don't think any of Bramble's actions make him nonredeemable until after Mudclaw's coup. Even after that, I found him mostly reacting in the way someone who's been ostracized, and whose clan is probably eyeing him with suspicion at the moment, which, near as I can tell, is literally his greatest fear. With the added patented warriors misogyny on top of course. People keep questioning his loyalty, so he becomes a hardass about putting the clan first, particularly pointing it the woman who he's desperate to prove wrong and also strangely overprotective of, that's pretty on brand for Warriors.

While I honestly don't think the Erins meant to set all of this up like this, I think there are some compelling narrative threads to Bramble's story in the second arc. I think author bias accidentally reflected some very real trauma that can come from the pressures patriarchy puts on men. But, again, this is the ERINS book, obviously there are lots of flaws to be found. Not even the characters that are meant to be perfect are without some semblance of bigotry. I find the specific hate borne towards Bramble to be the result of the fandom's pent up frustrations with the writing of this arc and the waffling characterization, rather than an honest reflection of how people felt when they were first forced to interpret this character. I do not think this is the only cat this happened to. I think Dovewing got similarly shafted by the fandom. I think she was one of the few "anxious" cats that felt somewhat authentic. (Again, ignoring everything with Tiger II, assume I didn't even read all that)

TL;DR:

OBVIOUSLY I DID NOT SHIP THESE TWO, I DO NOT LIKE THEIR RELATIONSHIP. (I think they should be surrogate siblings, and if someone could feed that delusion I should be ever so thankful)

I do not think their relationship actually had a power imbalance in the earlier arcs. Squilf has her father's favor and trust, as well as her sister, a medicine cat. If she at any point actually felt like Brambleclaw was a legit threat or bully, she had the option to do more than just avoid him. She never lets anyone else stand up for her, though. I think it's unfair to say that just because she didn't leverage her power, that she didn't have any. Were she a more viscous or cornered cat, she had the ammunition to sway the clan against Bramble. Their relationship didn't start until both of them were old enough to be warriors, even if Squilf was an apprentice when they set out, and Bramble had no say over her actions away from the clan. Squilf often makes this clear.

I think the abuse seen in their relationship is only more obvious to the reader as the Erins attempt to write their way around a willful woman without rethinking their bias against women. I do not think it is any more pronounced than many other warriors relationships. I think that Squilf's sudden change to submissive and powerless is a direct result of her perceived motherhood in the Erins eyes.

I think people forget that Brambleclaw's personal story is about trust and acceptance, making the fact that Squilf lied to him at any point push him to his most emotional extremes. Considering the entire third and fourth arc is just a whole bunch of secrets and espionage, I think it's telling that he's at worst, a petty bully or paranoid and cold deputy. (Also, I don't think anyone brings up the fact that STARCLAN INTERVENED when trying to defend Squilf in story? like, that feels like a big deal in our judgement of her, but I don't think any of them are privy to that info??) I'd argue his statement when he makes her deputy "there's no one I trust more" is the first time he extends trust willingly and freely to someone outside of his bloodline, and I wish this were treated by the narrative as a resolution to a lot of his character issues.

All this to say I believe there are charitable ways to interpret his actions, and I don't see people doing that?

Mostly, I just want to see Bramble convincingly written like someone with cptsd and who is crushingly isolated, rather than an arrogant prick.

Also, why didn't Leaf talk to Bramble, like, way more????

[kikithedeceiver]

For the Milgram ask game. How about question 2, 7, 12, 18, 21 for Mikoto :3

milgram character ask game !

I SHOULDN'T HAVE RAMBLED TO YOU ABOUT MILGRAM! DAMMIT, LIZ!

Fine my next fav, Mikoto...and John because you can't really talk about one without the other.

Also disclaimer: I'm a singlet. Just saying in case I offend anyone and feel free to correct me on anything I say wrong. Last question sort of get personal as well, so adding a read more.

2. favorite mv moment/frame?

Can't really choose because:

Mikoto looked so damn at peace here since he's finally able to catch a break

The devastation John felt when he finally realised he screwed Mikoto over big time for what he thought was good for him still hurts me every time I see this scene

7. favorite relationships with another character if they weren't in milgram, the way you'd imagine or would like them to be?

I do have this whole ass AU living in my head where no one is a murderer and living a healthier life, but still coping with their trauma of what could have led them to murder. Also it's more Amane-centred but ANYWAYS.

In that AU, where Mikoto isn't working in an exploitative asf company, yet still enjoys his line of work and can support his fam, I can see him trying to hang out with the rest of the cast from Milgram. Just anytime when he's off work, he'll catch up with whoever wants to chat for a bit. He'll go out with anyone! Maybe with Mahiru as she chats away about what's happening in her life, with Fuuta to just let him vent and maybe watch him play some arcade/mobile games, with Kotoko to just chill. Oh, there's still the smoking group! Night out drinking (Mikoto just gets non-alcoholic drinks tho).

As for Mikoto with John, I guess he'd try to come to terms that he basically has a headmate living inside him, but still try to stay optimistic about it. He knows John is looking out for him (no murder in this AU here), and he's working on communicating better with him too. Mikoto tries contacting him by writing stuff in a journal, and after a while, John also writes back. He also leaves sticky notes around their home to remind Mikoto to take care of himself.

Also also, John is here to listen to whatever is upsetting Mikoto, which he refuses to show anyone. Only John knows, and he comforts him as best as he can. Making sure Mikoto is tucked in, doing the chores around their home as Mikoto rest, etc.

12. what do you wish would be discussed more often about them in the fandom?

I really hope I'm not saying anything wrong here, but here goes...

It's mentioned a lot by fans already that they wished John wasn't the stereotypical bad alter that's always shown in media, but hey, he has layers and more personality than just assumed to be a cold, ruthless murderer, so we got that! I guess what I wish talked about more is how stress from work is a factor in why John committed the murder for Mikoto's sake. There are reasons behind why the murder happened, and honestly, I think it's the company Mikoto worked at that caused this whole thing to spiral out of control for them. Doesn't justify murder, but I can see why John did what he did when he believed what he did was to relieve Mikoto's stress, thus saving him.

18. which non-deco vocaloid songs do you think suit them?

I'm still thinking, but I think Lost One's Weeping fits Mikoto well. Mikoto tried so hard to do well and please everyone, but he is finally cracking since what he tried to pursue wasn't what he thought it would be, and now he's lost. However, I thought of The Servant of Evil fits John as well since he's willing to die for Mikoto if it meant no further harm would come to him.

21. do you have any similarities with them/relate to something in them?

...You're really asking me this.

*inhales*

In a sense, yes. It's very personal and I don't want to get into too much of it here, but I just want to protect whatever goodness I have in myself while continuing to exist. I want that part of me to be happy, that's all.

[castlebyersafterdark]

hi, do you have an opinion on the fic A Cruel summer w you? its always one i think of in regards to 'how explicit is byler fic realistically' cos the world building and description of both emotion and physical desire are very detailed, but they never go beyond kissing and everything about the set up (summer camp away from prying eyes, age 19 byler) suggests these boys would be going beyond kissing, but the story never goes there and the tags even say 'friends with benefits - the benefits are just kissing, shut up' or something, which speaks to me of self-censorship based on audience responses rather than doing service to this story. maybe themes of shame will come up later and i really hope they do, but for now it certainly reads as self-censorship which is such a shame as these authors, let loose, could be wonderful. perhaps theres a nsfw version they keep private, but i found it interesting they chose such elaborate details and these ages for the characters and expect people to believe they would stop at kissing... it's either a reflection of feminine emotionality (lets face it, byler in fics are often, psychologically, girls who are called mike and will) or it's a microcosm for whats happening in media at large which is lots of PG films and this huge lack of sexuality and sensuality in order to draw in as big an audience as possible (you mentioned being a former marvel fan, maybe this relates to that?)

Prefacing this one to say - nothing is a personal critique to follow here! Personal taste and a read on greater fandom in general!

So, I've skimmed it. I've checked out most of the 'big fics' in the fandom. Envious over authors who can craft long fics. Wish I could, but it's never gone well outside of original writing for me, so I'll leave it to the people who expertly weave these hyper detailed long form fanfictions.

This fic in particular looks so lovingly crafted and intricate in it's worldbuilding which is cool - it's just not for me. I'm picky with the setting for these characters and I do prefer stuff either 'ambiguous' in time period or accurate to the era (80s/90s), unless it's pure AU not based in reality (like a fantasy or dnd au). I like that the show is from a certain era so modern stuff just doesn't do it for me. I also am not a fan of rivals/enemies to whatever for them. I'll read one where they meet differently than as kids, but I'm just not fond of the trope with them otherwise. Which is fine! A lot of people like it and I'm sure a lot write it well! Just my personal taste for Byler.

So, I don't know too much about the fic in great length, as I've skipped around just to see the vibes, see where it went, etc. And here's my thing: no one HAS to write sex scenes/smut/spicy fics/whatever you want to label it. That's ok. It's the total lack of acknowledgement sometimes that gets me confused, like what do we think a real relationship is for Mike and Will? Why does it have to be as chaste as I see everywhere? Topic's been talked to death, but again, it's probably tied in to all the points you've made. Nineteen year olds at a summer camp are probably sneaking around and going further than making out. So. Ehhh. Is it dedication to the craft and with the writing style being so detailed, a fade to black or simple allusion to something beyond PG would feel out of place to not then go into detail, because of disinterest in writing a sex scene? Self-censorship due to the fandom's pressures of judgement? Unsure, and you can write what you want, of course. This is just one of the only fandoms where I've seen the defenses raised alllll the tiiiime where you need to overly reassure that you weren't thinking about or implying sex. Which I think is a disservice more often than not when you're exploring any sort of queer romance. Why do we have to be so sanitized?

Don't even get me started on Marvel, we're currently going through a messy and bitter divorce. But this is a good article I've bookmarked because the title is a great toss-out line when talking about the state of today's media: Everyone is Beautiful and No One is Horny . Not exactly what we're talking about, but I wanted to reference the title and the article is just an interesting read or re-read.

[itsmymeaningoflife]

If you're still interested in answers to your twd shipping post, I just finished the series :D Feel free to ignore, this got really long.

(And just a heads up, any time I say "Daryl is..." I mean that I hc him that way. Just so it doesn't come across that I'm arguing that anything I say is canon or not. xD)

I'm a donnie/conyl shipper and I am totally pleased with the state of Daryl's relationships by the end. Daryl is someone who takes his time comfortably letting people into his heart. The pace he and Connie are moving felt good to me! While the self-indulgent part of me would have loved more for them (at least Connie also seeing him off or slightly more physical affection), I didn't need a fully established relationship between them yet. I see it as something that is there, but still blossoming as they're also navigating their way through own personal paths in life.

It took 10+ years for him to tell Carol he loved her and she is an extremely important person to him. I don't think it's weird if he and Connie aren't quite there yet.

That, and I personally hc Daryl as not a very romantic person in general. I don't think he's going to be super mushy or deep kiss in public. He's not one to long for candle lit dinners or walks on the beach, ahaha. This also goes had in hand with my hc that's there's some gray romantic/sexual or demi romantic/sexual thing going on with Daryl. I hc the way he feels, expresses, and engages with people relationship-wise is pretty different from mainstream folks.

(So when I'm in the mood, I literally feel comfortable hc'ing that he and Connie ARE together in the epilogue scene and they just didn't express their reunion with any big grand gesture because they draw most of their joy from casual physical affection and simply being around each other.)

The other complicated half of the answer is that I also see Daryl and Carol as sort of... platonic life partners? So to me, they kind of ARE together, just not in the traditional romantic and/or sexual way? Whereas I enjoy Daryl and Connie having a bit more of that romantic interest in each other.

And as someone who connects very strongly to deep, intimate, polyamorous/non-monogamous relationships, I have no problem shipping Carol with Ezekiel romantically, Daryl with Connie romantically, and then Daryl and Carol in an equally important but different dynamic relationship that includes this true, deep, powerful platonic love.

And media almost never gives us relationships like Daryl and Carol that are platonic, so I just adore them that way. It's so satisfying for me seeing a man and a woman so close who aren't romantically involved. I LOVE PLATONIC 'I LOVE YOU'S THEY MAKE ME SO HAPPY.

TWD often comments on not being restricted by how the old world expected life to work, and I think that can go for relationships too. The dynamic that Daryl and Connie and Carol and whoever else have don't have to fall in neat little boxes they way society used to dictate. I love it being fluid and open and comfortable without a need for jealousy or labels.

And this is only the tip of the iceberg for me when it comes to talking about these guys, but I'm trying to keep it concise as possible. xD

So, I think your post was asking about what less ideal state shippers prefer, but personally, I don't feel I like lost anything. Who knows what's to come with the spin off, but as of the twd finale right now, I don't feel like they ditched or abandoned Daryl and Connie and I wouldn't give up Daryl and Carol's friendship for the WORLD. They're both super important to me. :D

And I left behind ship wars back when I was 13, so no matter what does happen in the new spin-off, I'm going to be in my happy little twd bubble off to the side shipping these characters in the way that brings me the most joy.

While I’m not really engaging with this part of the fandom (‘shipping wars’) anymore since the show has ended, I think that this is a really interesting take and I’m very grateful you took the time in writing out this ask, thank you.

You make some very interesting points. The one thing I absolutely agree on is the asexual Daryl hc. I’ve always been a big big big supporter of asexual Daryl.

I’m glad you’ve watvhed this show tho, and I’m glad that you, a donnie shipper, can also appreciate the profoundly deep connection between Daryl and Carol. A lot (not all, but a good chunk) of donnie shippers like to diminish their bond in favour of their ship. So thank you for that.

But one thing I will have to “call you out” on (I’m sorry for the phrasing I really don’t mean it in a harsh way hahah) is the “Daryl isnt one to long for candle lit dinners” line… because this

is a very treasured moment in the Caryl fandom. Daryl being the only person Carol let in (both physically and emotionally) after she pulled away from the group, and Daryl asking “if [he] has to be a king to get some food around here” is such a beautiful scene.

That and in s11 he asks Carol to meet him for lunch, and when Carol suggests the diner, he tells her “it’s a date” … so like… he does, and has been involved in asking people (Carol) on dinner dates

I will post this ask as I think people will want to see this take and maybe chime in on some points better than I can.

To anyone replying to this person- be kind and be respectful. I’ll be monitoring comments and anyone being hateful will be removed. It will not be tolerated. People can have opposing opinions and still have respectful discussions about it.

[crossdressingdeath]

The thing that bothers me most about the fandom acting like Percy and Nico have this really close, sweet, mutually supportive relationship that's usually actually Jason and Nico's relationship with Percy slapped on top but never mind that is... honestly for me the most compelling part of their relationship is just how incredibly fucked it is? It's this one-sided unhealthy mess that's leading Nico further and further down a path of self-destruction and the whole time he knows he is never going to get out of it anywhere near what he's putting in but he can't stop himself (even though some of his thoughts in BoO suggest he wants to) and Percy seems at best only vaguely aware of how badly he's hurting this person who's only ever wanted to help him, but neither of them are bad people. It's an unhealthy relationship where both the people involved are fundamentally good people who do not want to hurt anyone. Their relationship is not mutually supportive or even all that close, and is frankly hanging on by a thread made entirely of messy history that occasionally feels like the aftermath of a bad breakup without them ever actually dating (you can't tell me that Percy talking shit about Nico while the Argo II was en route to rescue him and despite the members of the Seven who didn't know Nico already distrusting him doesn't have just a few "ex-boyfriend who's still kind of bitter about it" vibes)! And neither of them are happy with this situation, but neither of them know how to take the first step towards fixing it! That's something you don't see very often in kids' media!

Now, I don't know how much of that was intentional on Rick's part (the bit where the writing lowkey suggests that the only thing messing up their relationship is Nico not having told Percy that he used to have a crush on him makes me just a little uncomfortable and I hope TSatS goes more into all the other stuff between them, for example Percy making zero attempts to defend Nico when Leo and Jason question his loyalties and in fact almost certainly making things worse with the disturbing stories he canonically told them about Nico, which I am literally never going to be over). But I find Nico and Percy's canon dynamic fascinating, because it shows sides of them that we don't usually get to see. Percy's treatment of Nico shows a dark side to his devotion to His Group Specifically (what happens if you're not considered part of Percy's group specifically? Percy's got some really strong "fuck you, got mine" energy at times that does not get acknowledged enough) that can only be showcased with a character like Nico who's vitally important but not technically part of the group! Meanwhile Nico's unfaltering loyalty and devotion to Percy even though he knows it's bad for him and even though he hates himself for it says a lot about him as a person (and I'd argue gives more of a hint about his actual fatal flaw than Bianca's little talk about grudges does; this boy's fatal flaw is self-sacrifice, not holding grudges, and I will die on this hill)! And it just feels like a shame to drop that for your standard protective older brother dynamic that doesn't fit the established relationship at all, especially when half the time it feels like the people doing this just don't want to acknowledge that Percy isn't perfect all the time outside of minor Protagonist Flaws like being mildly insecure at times and being a little dense. Basically I want more fucked up relationships where both parties are good people who haven't got a single solitary idea how to fix it but don't want to take the massive step of cutting the relationship off entirely and trying to rebuild it from the ground up! Stop taking away one of the really good examples of that I've got, dammit!

[cherrymoonvol6]

Hey your analysis are nice. Do you want to share your opinion on common/popular TOH proships? As an also proship-but-not-really-THAT-proship, I'm interested in hearing what you have to say.:)

:D thank you for your nice words!

truthfully the reason why i call myself a proship is that, as a label, it aligns way more with my outlook in media and the way that i consume it. i'm just interested in well-told stories and interesting dynamics, and often that means that i gravitate towards those pairings that deal more with obstacles and conflict. but fandom hates that sort of stuff, mainly because discourse in that wavelength brings the worst out of people every single time. and like, i think it's important to address how certain tropes or execution of characters/narrative beats could correlate to the thing in real life, kinda like the works of youtube channels like pop culture detective or lindsay ellis. i believe there's a lot of value in that and it's interesting to explore and it's been a very helpful tool to understand other perspectives. but also, the moment that people in fandom begin to have discussions about something in media as if it's Real and happening in our world, i just fall asleep immediately lmfao. mostly because like, why would you analyze a piece of media through the only lens that DOESN'T acknowledge this media as a work of fiction? what's the point of media existing then, to begin with?

this is why i've never liked certain huntlow criticism, like willow using her magic to physically push hunter around. IMO willow could stab hunter through the heart and laugh it off and it wouldn't change anything, because hunter is not real. it's pointless to me to be all up in arms about it when he can't be harmed, not like a real person could. the most offensive thing about huntlow is that it's boring as shit and takes up space where luz's story could've been expanded and developed better. and thinking about it like that allows me to meet the story where it's at, instead of getting stuck on little nitpicks that, if they were to be taken out of the story, wouldn't make huntlow a better couple because their problem in the show is different and far bigger. now, you could argue that in certain places, willow's forceful attitudes towards hunter diminish his agency as a character, like how she makes the decision for hunter to come back to the team by yanking him to the courtyard. you could argue that it's dumb that willow is shown to be more powerful and resourceful than hunter when we know hunter is essentially a child soldier and willow just goes to highschool. and then i'd agree with you and i'd be willing to keep talking about it, because we're back to understanding the show in its own terms, and talking about it as it is: a connected thread of narrative beats and characters written by a team of people with the objective of telling a story. also, you could question the ethics of making willow treat hunter that way in a kids show, kinda saying that women being forceful with guys is okay and funny, and i would also be willing to considerate it through that perspective. but it's just the conceptualizing of the least impactful aspects of hunter and willow's dynamic (like, 10 total seconds in the entirety of the show of willow manhandling him for an in-show joke) as a huge problem that feels pointless to me.

all this preamble is to say that a lot of TOH ships in general fail to really catch my attention. this comes in part to my personal preference in ships. i think it's important that all the people involved in a dynamic have agency in order for their interactions to be really interesting. this is why i've never been into empgold, for example, given how their relationship works in canon: belos grooms hunter into a distorted understanding of the outside world, which leads hunter to close himself off and trust belos and belos only. and then that changes in hollow mind, and their dynamic essentially shatters from there. the resolution of hunter rejecting him and choosing his own path, as it happens in TTT, is therefore a sound conclusion. like, there's not really a lot a fucked psycho-sexual stuff or romantic interest can add to their dynamic, IMO. mainly because the moment hunter finds agency in their dynamic, the whole premise of it falls apart. only deviating their characters from their canon identities could make it more interesting, but at that point we're no longer talking about the characters from the show, are we.

at first glance a ship like beluz could be better in that regard, because luz has agency in the dynamic. she rejects belos over and over, and even manages to get the upper hand in a few occasions (see: king's tide). but looking at their interactions in canon, every time they talk to each other is like they're both interacting with a brick wall: luz is dead set in protecting the witches, and belos is dead set in going through with his philosophy. in that sense, that part in hollow mind where belos goes "can't reason with crazy" is a perfect embodiment of how their dynamic goes lol. even the whole angle of luz fearing she's becoming like philip is window dressing, because she's just being paranoid out of the guilt of the selfish decisions she's taken during the show: not at any point does this parallel make any real sense in canon, and then it's swiftly shut down by the end. it makes sense why this works like that in canon, because belos is supposed to be the irredeemable villain, as the ending shows. maybe there's more window for this to be changed though, because of the wittebane story. and obviously as a lunter enthusiast i'm no strange to using these hints and integrating them in the story to make it a better one. but personally, i just don't see the appeal -- and i'm not a belos enthusiast either, like i see other lunterinas tend to be.

from what i know those two are the more popular proships in the show. there's probably other stuff with the collector and king, or the actual incest pairings, but tbf i'm just pretty uninterested in any other ship in the show besides lunter. it's funny though, because i don't even think lunter has the most potential in the show -- i think lumity could be the best one under the right circumstances, if you could even believe me lol. but this involves a fundamental change in the premise of the show along, kinda converting amity into the deuteragonist by making her become the golden guard by the end of S1. it solves the issue of amity having zero connection to the plot, it adds stakes to luz and amity's relationship, also gives amity a lot more agency... i think that would be the best version of a love interest for luz in the show. but also i fear that that would make it so amity overshadows luz in the narrative. like, idk, a lot of stuff would need to be changed there. and that's what makes it hard to truly envision what the best (aka, the most interesting) version of lumity could look like. in lunter's case, we already have a case in canon of luz being the evelyn to hunter's caleb, and if you watched episodes like "hunting palismen" or "hollow mind" with no knowledge of lumity, i'm sure a lot of people could see the potential of their bond becoming romantic in the future. stuff like luz sadly looking back at hunter at the end of HP or hunter taking luz's hand in HM is pure ship fodder tbh and i'm tired of pretending it's not.

i've also toyed with the idea of terra and raine becoming an interesting dynamic in an universe where lilith and raine got condensed into a unique character. i've mentioned this before in my ideas of making eda and raine a better couple (cause good lord they're just as bad as every other couple in the show and i don't understand how people can deem them as "the good one" ?????), and to realize that it's raine's dynamic with terra that would be more appealing to me if those changes were real is very funny to me. there's also a lot that would need to be changed but so, so much untapped potential. however, it's another case where whatever is in canon barely resembles the best version of their dynamic, and it's hard to picture it with how raine and terra actually behave in the show. in that sense, they're very similar to beluz: raine's mind is completely made up at all times, which means that they would never accept terra's vision of the future.

of course, this is all my opinion. like i said, this also comes down to my personal taste in dynamics. like for example i'm personally not into poly ships in media, only for narrative reasons (economic storytelling: the optimal number is always 2). it's hard to find something that strikes that perfect balance between fucked-up and salvageable, and some of my beloveds like jackparse (from the check please comic) or asgoriel (from undertale) are some examples of that. but in true proship fashion, i think any pairing that you could come up in the show is fine. and of course i'm happy to share my opinions (and bless you anon for giving me a reason to yap about my thoughts <3), but they're just my opinions and the way that i personally approach media. you can like any dynamic in the show, platonic or romantic or sexual or whatever, and it's fine. they're not real people. that's the fun of media, that's the point of it: it's a playground to test ideas and make them interact. as long as you're doing that, all is fine by me.

[bcbdrums]

Those last ask, I want to give my two cents on the subject. (It got way longer than I expected)

I know this is true to every fandom, but I notice that your favorite character and ships tend to colors your perception of a show and how much you (dis)like certain characters.

And what I’ve seen in the fandom only solidifies that:

The way Ron gets portrayed in most Kigo stories (I even read Kigo stories where he was portrayed as abusive for the heck of it)

Whatever happened to the wiki, where shippers edited it to paint Ron in such an unfavorable light

There was that weird fake Reddit AMA a few months back (kill Ron? Kim having interviews to replace him? Kigo?)

Those recent ask

1/3

i agree with basically everything you said. i think you put it best when you said Shego is a victim of "draco in leather pants" syndrome. and what does it all stem from, ultimately?

she's hot. that's...that's it. she's disney's answer to harley quinn. curvaceous villain with just enough good qualities that you can apply redemption tales if you want to, but can also keep her fully evil if that is your preference. and of course, a villain who is complex like that is gonna be more appealing. a villain who is too....cut and dry evil, notice those ones don't get written about in fanfic very much...

i think you're also correct in that fandom applies the tragic backstory unnecessarily at times and reads too much into the "good qualities" she may display, or interprets them differently.

can we view Shego that way? yes, the writers made it so. and most folk who go the very tropey route do seem to always pair her with Kim romantically. and it frequently ends up feeling out of character... and those fic writers who acknowledge rather than ignore the age gap? it always ends up feeling like a big sisterly relationship that then turns romantic and feels wrong.

it kind of reaches a point where a lot of the fic feels copy-paste, you know? when they follow all the tropes.

and you're right, Shego is essentially the 'main character' in fandom, far and above Kim and Ron. just look at the reddit, for example... the actual KP subreddit has folks asking questions and discussing the show. the Shego subreddit has people posting hot cosplay and hot fanart. it all comes back to, ppl are focused on a hot babe. Kim is treated much the same by a huge chunk of fandom, but another huge chunk (hopefully the majority) recognize she's a minor.

(lol...yet another indication of Shego's age, that no one has any qualms at all about sexualizing her, but Kim thankfully doesn't get as heavy a treatment by fandom in that regard. still, happens a lot...)

in any case... you can't change what is. the majority of the world is always gonna be interested in a hot chick. doesn't matter the form of media. there will always be a crowd who mis-characterize whoever gets in the way of their ship, so Ron is always gonna get the short end of the stick in that regard. (except, take note... there is a large portion of fandom that is "Ron harem" - ppl who identify with Ron as the nerd he is and pair him with the hot chick; self-insert type stuff often as not.)

so....yeah. and overall, there IS more potential complexity to be had on the surface in writing "bad girl goes good" and then gets sexualized. rather than just "sexualize the good girl." Kim and Ron as the heroes, and Kim as the one portrayed seemingly without flaws, will always be portrayed at a different standard in fandom. there's just...less to do with them, on the surface.

some of this of course boils down to KP being mostly a monster of the week type show, and not intended for too much character development. Ron is indeed the most developed character with the strongest arc, and some could even argue the only arc. but he gets in the way of hot chick being with the other hot chick, sooooooooo... the overwhelming internet population isn't into fandom deeply the way we are. the overwhelming internet population is into hot chicks.

people are always gonna do what they want, which is their freedom to do... which makes the gems of fanfic and other fanworks out there where the characters are portrayed in a more canonical way (Shego as a lazy, evil by choice woman who has little to no interest in redemption) all the more appreciated.

all that said, could a good writer convince me in regards to a Shego redemption tale? certainly. it's all in how the story is told.