#big walder!!!!!

[greywoe]

the walders being wary of shaggydog

[motorway-south]

the asoiaf key five are actually littlefinger kevan lannister the frey kids that bran beefs with in acok jorah mormont and barbrey dustin and those are the only characters u need to understand the story

[venezashade]

The Blackstone.

FINALLY THE DAY HAS COME

My art work for Toinette’s incredible fanfic is finally out! It’s a tease for what you will all see later today, so go subscribe to https://archiveofourown.org/users/Toinette93 for CoC and Malevolent fanfic bangers! I’m going to link this specific fanfic as soon as it will come out :3 It’s not your ordinary Malevolent content, there is so much Harlan’s CoC campaigns lore……….

I’m so glad I participated for this year @malevolentbigbang ! And I could do an art inspired by my friend’s fanfic! Not gonna lie, I was really worried how it will turn out and if I could make it in time, but I did it! Go check other authors and artists’ work for Malevolent Big Bang 2024! THERE IS SO MUCH TO DISCOVER!!!

Also check @sleepinbird, something’s coming there too for this fic today tehehehehehhehehhehehehhehe

[ID: Coloured art piece with chiaroscuro and details with the characters: Neitsh, Erwin, Entie, Petra, Jan, John and Arthur trapped in The Blackstone with a visible kind of psychedelic lines around them. There are bloody Kayne’s hands that float around them and there is blood all around the line of the stone. The background is in shades of dark purple and dark red, almost black with green floaty floral additions. In all the places of the art piece, the bright colours look like they are glowing in the dark, there is a very strong contrast between the dark shades and light elements. /END ID]

[naddpodbigbang]

Today's spotlight is on i know the end by @kipperlillycopperkettle with accompanying art by @duck-speak.

READ THE FIC HERE & CHECK OUT THE ACCOMPANYING ART HERE!

[nogoodsheepstealing-greatgrandma]

Reviewing House Blackwood

Benedict Rivers/King Benedict Justman - a bastard of both Blackwood and Bracken who rises to become King of the Trident - pretty neat but loses points for going with the most boring name possible.

Shiera Blackwood - When it came to supporting Rhaenyra, I wonder if House Blackwood remembered how they would have been Kings and Queens of the Riverlands had the Riverlords just accepted a woman's rule?

Agnes Blackwood - Speaking of Queens of the Riverlands... vengeful Curse of Agnes Blackwood for the win

Royce Blackwood - Come on, Daella, girl, honey. He sings, he writes his own ballads, he's your age...

Samwell Blackwood - Shit at duelling, but unlike Amos Bracken he did not hold a grudge for his failed attempt to court Rhaenyra, so who's the real loser?

Alysanne Blackwood - Bisexual, archer, warrior, peacemaker, smells of woodsmoke... Cregan blushes and twirls his hair nervously. I will never forgive HOTD for erasing her in favour of... two random ocs for tumblr to ship, followed by a for some reason still-alive Samwell and Amos at the Riverlands Geneva Convention... we lost so much. Who else bets they're going to take her peacemaking role and give it to Alicent?

Red Robb Rivers - What is it with House Blackwood and iconic archers? Gave Criston Cole a very satisfying reward for being a loser.

'Bloody Ben' Blackwood - 11-years-old and an absolute mad lad... at least that's his reputation in battle. This shy little boy had to lead men into battle at 11 and wept to see the dead, he saw more bloodshed by 13 than most grown men see their entire lives... and come on I know AddamxDaeron is the more popular ship but I am an AddamxBenjicot truther. This little boy carried Addam's body from the battlefield and kept his bones at Raventree Hall for 8 years. 8 years.

Sarra Stark, Alys Stark, Raya Stark, Mariah Stark - we barely know you but I hope none of you died in childbirth

Melissa Blackwood - "ugh grrm is so biased against the brackens, waah I'm team barba" - how about Team Being Nice to Naerys? Clearly the more politically astute - at least she actually succeeds in maintaining influence at court. And guess whose kid actually gets to be King in all but name? Guess who gets to claim Mount Big Tits in the end? That is how you play your cards right.

Gwenys Rivers & Mya Rivers - I like to think these two are partially responsible for whatever the hell Brynden's deal is - I get witch vibes from both.

Brynden 'Bloodraven' Rivers - "How Many Eyes Does Lord Bloodraven Have? A Thousand Eyes, and One". Sorry Aegor girlies but do you have a riddle this cool? Yeah he set up a police state, lured Aenys to his death and is probably going to trap Bran in a tree... but if his alter ego Maynard Plumm is anything to go by dude could have had a solid stand-up career. I mean, "We'd all be bastard sons of old King Aegon if half these tales were true", "And who's to say we're not?" 😉 You fucking jester you're so proud of that one aren't you?

Quentyn Blackwood - Sorry, all we know about you is that Otho the Brute smashed your face in during a tourney. I guess they have to get a win sometimes.

Betha Blackwood - Spirited, stubborn, wilful... I am begging for either F&B part 2 or later Dunk and Egg stories to tell us more about her... but I salute her attempts to nudge House Targaryen away from incest.

Duncan Targaryen - joins Jacaerys Velaryon and Baelor Breakspear in the Beautiful Dark Haired Targ Kings Who Should Have Been club.

Jaehaerys & Shaera - yeah I just cannot justify their choices... the mistake was naming him Jaehaerys in the first place. I suppose their union did give us Dany eventually, but man the cost...

Daeron Targaryen - All of Aegon's sons married for love... 😢 We do need to come up with a moniker for him though. We've got Daeron the Daring, Daeron the Young Dragon, Daeron the Good, my personal icon Daeron the Drunken... Maybe Daeron the Devoted?

Rhaelle Targaryen - "Rhaelle, Egg’s little girl…she used to call me uncle maester" 😭 Real talk how devastated must Aemon have been to know it was his favourite niece's grandson who nearly destroyed his family? It was out of love for her that he allowed the possibility of Stannis being Azor Ahai, in his words even hoped it.

Alyssa Blackwood - very shit luck marrying Walder Frey and probably dying in childbirth. Anything to not marry a Bracken I guess.

Lame Lothar Frey - Much as I hate him for it I do have to credit him as a key mastermind in the Red Wedding, and it was his idea to play the Rains of Castamere. I'm intrigued to see him and Bloodraven share notes on deceit and presentation.

Tytos Blackwood - Dope ass cloak. "Grr GRRM is so biased against Jonos Bracken in favour of perfect loyal Blackwoods with their special magic old gods so basic waaah" - Jonos is a homophobic little bitch who tries to get baby Bethany taken hostage and he doesn't even have a cool cloak.

Tyta the Maid - Tyta the Lesbian more like.

Hoster 'Hos' Blackwood - "A weakling, this one. Water for blood. Never mind how tall he is, any one of my girls could snap him like a rotten twig" - said a jealous Jonos Bracken who doesn't even know how to read.

Bethany Blackwood - "Blackwood has six sons, but only the one daughter. He dotes on her. A snot-nosed little creature, couldn't be more than seven" - um Jonos did this 7-year-old call you names one time or something?

Big Walder Frey - You know what, I'm rooting for this little dude. I believe he'll inherit the Twins one day.

I could go on to list all of Aegon and Betha's descendants but to cherry pick a few:

Rhaegar Targaryen - Royce Blackwood vibes anyone?

Stannis Baratheon - Way too much to unpack briefly here if I'm honest, but as misogynists go he's my favourite

Daenerys Targaryen - Mother of Dragons, Breaker of Chains, Azor Ahai - Egg and Beth would be so proud.

Jon Snow - I'm manifesting post-resurrection albino Jon to match Bloodraven

Shireen Baratheon - I just want her and Hos to get together and talk books

Mya Stone - ok hear me out Shadrich is going to kidnap Sansa and Mya is going to go after them with her mules and she and Sansa are going to kiss and kill Littlefinger-

Gendry - Knight of the Hollow Hill, defender of orphans, captures the heart of a Stark... a true Blackwood legacy.

Ok now Brackens

Benedict Rivers/King Benedict Justman - Yeah ok house bracken gets to claim you too I guess

Lothar Bracken - So first this snake betrays Agnes Blackwood, and then Harwyn Hoare starves him in a crow cage anyway... you can't escape Lady Agnes Blackwood's curse.

Lyle Bracken - Participation award for an assist in knocking Maegor out for a couple of weeks, but that blow to the head probably made him worse.

Ser Olyvar Bracken - Hilariously part of Maegor's kingsguard, I would love to know more about his relationship with Lyle. Tried to lead a Faith Militant rebellion in the Night's Watch. In the North. Where people worship the Old Gods. Like most Brackens, he didn't think this through.

Amos Bracken - Beat Samwell Blackwood twice in a duel, but in the end was no match for my girl Black Aly.

Ser Raylon Rivers - In the end the supporter of Team Misogyny got lured away from Stone Hedge by a woman and a 10-year-old boy, leaving it for the taking. Classic Bracken failure.

Humfrey Bracken - I guess you supported Team Black in the end. Well done on the bare minimum.

Lord Bracken - Worst dad. Budget Otto Hightower (the bar is in hell). Openly talks about getting one daughter crowned while Queen Naerys was still alive, then grooms his other poor daughter to pimp her out to Aegon the Unworthy. Not even worth naming.

Barba Bracken - Got to love a girl with famous tits. Not as politically astute as Missy, but the commitment to a stint in the Maidenvault can't have been fun. Loses points for helping groom her poor baby sister, but perhaps that's just the history books talking. Did she blame her father, for feeding them to Aegon? Did she blame herself, for losing Aegon? Would her sister still be alive if she hadn't lost favour? Or is it easier to blame Melissa, that flat-chested bitch, it's her fault, it's her fault not mine- Do I ship Barbissy? (let's be real they would be way juicier than whatever they're trying to do with rhaenycent)

Bethany Bracken - My heart absolutely breaks for this poor girl. Also... her nephew founded the Golden Company... which was eventually commanded by Myles Toyne... exiled following the downfall of House Toyne due to Terrence Toyne's execution... how much do Bethany and Terrance haunt the Golden Company?

Aegor 'Bittersteel' Rivers - Ok I have to admit, 'Beneath the Gold, the Bitter Steel' is a baller war cry. And I wonder how much he dreamt of Naerys' death - if she had died, he'd have been Aegor Targaryen. Unfortunate though that his devotion to Daemon Blackfyre's family only goes so far, since he refuses to help Daemon II... classic Bracken homophobia.

Otho Bracken - The Brute of Bracken, responsible for reigniting the feud (though tbh that was always going to happen). Refuses to help Dunk, literally shrugs and says "sorry boy not my problem"... brutal. And frankly, rude.

Jonos Bracken - Homophobic loser. Can't read. Probably bullied by a 7-year-old girl.

Barbara Bracken, Jayne Bracken, Catelyn Bracken, Bess Bracken, Alysanne Bracken - I wish we knew more about you other than that one of you was raped. Though I'm sure you are all horse girlies, which is neat.

Harry Rivers - might not be a Bracken, which would be a win for him if he were alive to enjoy it.

Possible Bracken-Blackfyre descendants (if House Blackfyre is extinguished in the male line then remaining Blackfyres probably come from Calla and Bittersteel).

Varys - I fully subscribe to Varys Blackfyre theories. I doubt Jonos would approve of his perfume, but Brynden Rivers would surely give the dude a respectful handshake for disguises and shenanigans. Most Blackwood Bracken to ever Blackfyre.

Serra - so sorry girl you had to marry Illyrio Mopatis. I subscribe to the theory that she tried to escape with her son to get him away from Illyrio's machinations and that's why Illyrio still has her hands - a punishment for theft. I hope Illyrio chokes on his cheese.

Young Griff - I love that Varys's speech in no way describes this spoilt, bad-tempered, blue-haired mummer's dragon, but oh my god. This boy is so doomed by the narrative. His adoptive father must feel the truth deep down, but he will burn King's Landing to crown him before he faces reality - and probably Young Griff with it. It's the Bracken blood in him, he just can't win.

In Conclusion

To all Bracken-stans who complain of pro-Blackwood bias... Bracken loser energy is objectively hilarious and I have to ask, are you not entertained?

Also the realisation that Dany is a Blackwood and Faegon is a Bracken is exceedingly hilarious to me.

[ashamaxxing]

was describing the winterfell plotline in acok to my friend and realized it’s just this

[myimaginationplain]

I've slowly but surely become enamored with the idea of Arya x Big Walder. tfw when you both killed your first person at nine years old

[atopvisenyashill]

i was trying to make sigils/personal heraldry for some canon characters who are mentioned to have them but canva's background erase is so stupid, it doesn't recognize that sometimes the background is not black, so it keeps trying to erase the little black plowman and the little black and white pig in the sigil instead of, ya know, the huge block of brown in the background. this is discrimination against the freys and i won't stand for it!!!!!

[stannis-the-freaking-mannis]

house pie

[alethianightsong]

Big Mom is the Walder Frey of One Piece and no, I will not elaborate further.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

#after being given an honored role at her father’s funeral #before telling robb that winterfell had been burnt to the ground #and almost everyone he had ever known was dead #as he sits there and shares a meal with them#and plays the nice guy #while ​being the main orchestrator of their approaching deaths #and the mass slaughter of their army

yeah the red wedding was bad but actually the worst thing house frey ever did was lothar frey giving catelyn stark his condolences for bran and rickon’s deaths before proceeding to bait her only remaining son into a death trap.

[ilynpilled]

asoiaf comedian poll

who got the most or biggest laughs out of you? (however they managed to do so, intentionally or not)

[kingsmoot]

🔥

Honestly I’ve always been confused on Roose’s problem (among the many others he has) on why he doesn’t remarry and have actual true born heirs.

Obviously Domeric is killed by Ramsay and he’s like hm that will happen again, but he should just marry some woman and have as many children as possible, surely Ramsay can’t kill then all, espically if he just hides them away.

This is only controversial because whenever I talk to people about this like they’re like are you fucking forgetteting about the serial killer in the back garden but just KILL him if you have more sons it’s not that hard Big Goosey!

ooooooooough i'm so happy to talk about this, and i'm so sorry it's taken me so long to respond to you. i just wanted to be able to sit down with this ask and get nice and carried away.

you are right that roose COULD remarry and just try for as many kids as possible. and if wife number four dies in childbirth or from pregnancy complications well let's just line up wife number five and try again. he could walder frey it and play a simple numbers game. surely rams can't kill ALL of them as babies. maybe we'll hide a few. send them off to foster. maybe rams will finally get murdered in one of those almost-happy-accidents that keep happening to him but somehow letting him fail upwards instead of dropping dead. what if everything worked out for a change!

but even though roose is a self-serving pragmatist, this isn't something he would do. i do not think roose will ever have another child after ramsay. he tells theon that walda has a "fertile feel to her" and that if she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts the dreadfort will soon be overrun with the fruit of their loins. but i think he's just being.... glib. especially because he dismisses this fantasy as soon as he shares it.

Lady Walda is a Frey, and she has a fertile feel to her. I have become oddly fond of my fat little wife. The two before her never made a sound in bed, but this one squeals and shudders. I find that quite endearing. If she pops out sons the way she pops in tarts, the Dreadfort will soon be overrun with Boltons. Ramsay will kill them all, of course. That's for the best. I will not live long enough to see new sons to manhood, and boy lords are the bane of any House. Walda will grieve to see them die, though."

adwd, chapter 32, reek iii

i'll back up a bit, here, to make my point.

the thing that makes roose bolton such a terrifying villain is not his leeching, his voice so soft other men strain to hear it, his ageless face or his queer, cold, pale eyes. it is the fact that he does not see other people as worthwhile. he simply does not believe in their personhood.

This is a cold man, Catelyn realized, not for the first time.

asos; chapter 49, catelyn vi

to me, the roose moment that makes my blood run cold is actually the above excerpt from reek iii where he describes himself as "oddly fond of his fat little wife". this passage gets memed on a lot. so much so that i feel like people take the whole thing as a joke that it's easy to dismiss. but i really disagree. roose's description of walda isn't funny to me. it isn't awkward. it's chilling.

this is not the way you talk about your living human wife. this is the kind of distant, impersonal affection you would use to describe a neighbor's dog. not your own dog, who you know well, but your neighbor's, who you only see from time to time. this is how roose bolton talks about a woman he likes. a woman he is fond of and intimate with and married to. and she's less than a pet to him.

there are lots more examples of roose's cold calloused solipsism in this chapter. for another:

"This miller's marriage had been performed without my leave or knowledge. The man had cheated me. So I had him hanged, and claimed my rights beneath the tree where he was swaying. If truth be told, the wench was hardly worth the rope. The fox escaped as well, and on our way back to the Dreadfort my favorite courser came up lame, so all in all it was a dismal day. "A year later this same wench had the impudence to turn up at the Dreadfort with a squalling, red-faced monster that she claimed was my own get. I should've had the mother whipped and thrown her child down a well … but the babe did have my eyes. She told me that when her dead husband's brother saw those eyes, he beat her bloody and drove her from the mill. That annoyed me, so I gave her the mill and had the brother's tongue cut out, to make certain he did not go running to Winterfell with tales that might disturb Lord Rickard. Each year I sent the woman some piglets and chickens and a bag of stars, on the understanding that she was never to tell the boy who had fathered him. A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule."

adwd; chapter 32, reek iii

besides the abject horror of roose running down a random woman he spotted on a river bank with a gang of armed men to hold her down and rape her under her husband's corpse, the thing that really makes his treatment of ramsay's mother frightening to me is how casually he pays for her upkeep for the next couple decades.

i find it almost impossible to compare roose and the unnamed miller's wife of weeping waters socially and economically. she lives on the dreadfort's lands and he is her lord. the kind of money and resources that roose can toss around on an afternoon's diversion of fox hunting is more money and resources than this woman could have ever hoped to see if she had lived a dozen lifetimes. and when she comes to him beaten and scorned with his rape baby brandished in her arms, he maims her brother in law and gifts her her dead husband's mill and a generous annual allowance. in one casual motion he grants her more than she ever could have hoped to have. and he could have done that from the beginning. there was nothing stopping roose from making a gift of the mill to her after he raped her and left her bleeding on the river bank. besides, of course, the fact that it would never occur to him to do so. not until he got annoyed. before then, he hadn't thought of her at all.

but in addition to reek iii giving us a glimpse at roose bolton's pre-canon, casual, wanton, cruelty, it also gives us a glimpse into his own self perception. he says:

to ramsay:

"You are mistaken. It is not good. No tales were ever told of me. Do you think I would be sitting here if it were otherwise? Your amusements are your own, I will not chide you on that count, but you must be more discreet. A peaceful land, a quiet people. That has always been my rule. Make it yours." "Is this why you left Lady Dustin and your fat pig wife? So you could come down here and tell me to be quiet?"

and again to theon:

A peaceful land, a quiet people, that has always been my rule." "A fine rule, m'lord."

roose's criticism of ramsay is not the fact that he is a serial killing serial rapist. roose is both of those things. roose's criticism of ramsay is the fact that he's gouche. he's bruttish and rude and was not raised in a noble household to act a lord. he's classless as well as lower class.

roose's greatest criticism of ramsay is that he makes him look bad.

but, and this is the point i've been ramping up to make, i think that roose is actually ashamed of ramsay and what ramsay says about him. i think roose, like tywin, sees his child as evidence of his own corruption.

don't worry i have pullquotes.

"They're only leeches. My lord." "My squire could take a lesson from you, it would seem. Frequent leechings are the secret of a long life. A man must purge himself of bad blood. You will do, I think. For so long as I remain at Harrenhal, Nan, you shall be my cupbearer, and serve me at table and in chambers." This time she knew better than to say that she'd sooner work in the stables. "Yes, your lord. I mean, my lord."

acok; chapter 47; arya ix

"Yes," Roose Bolton said. "His blood is tainted, that cannot be denied. Yet he is a good fighter, as cunning as he is fearless. When the ironmen cut down Ser Rodrik, and Leobald Tallhart soon after, it fell to Ramsay to lead the battle, and he did. He swears that he shall not sheathe his sword so long as a single Greyjoy remains in the north. Perhaps such service might atone in some small measure for whatever crimes his bastard blood has led him to commit." He shrugged. "Or not. When the war is done, His Grace must weigh and judge. By then I hope to have a trueborn son by Lady Walda."

asos; chapter 49, catelyn vi

"Tell him … tell him to be afraid?" Reek felt ill at the very thought of it. "M'lord, I … if I did that, he'd …" "I know." Lord Bolton sighed. "His blood is bad. He needs to be leeched. The leeches suck away the bad blood, all the rage and pain. No man can think so full of anger. Ramsay, though … his tainted blood would poison even leeches, I fear." "He is your only son."

adwd; chapter 32, reek iii (sidenote i can't help but hear a note of pain in theon's voice, here. i don't think he's feelings empathy or sympathy for ramsay, here, but he does know what it's like to be dismissed and discounted by a lord father who has no other sons to choose from, and hearing how roose talks about ramsay threatens to remind him of a feeling he had before he learned his name.)

i have a really long post in which i pull these same quotes where i talk about the parallel of how robert talks about joff to how roose talks about ramsay. and while i'm talking about joffrey there, i did make the point that roose's phrasing about ramsay's bad blood that not even the leeches can drain away leaves us with the obvious question of whose blood it is that's in ramsay. and if we know whose blood it is that's in rams, then we can look at roose's frequent and obsessive leechings in a very different light.

roose tells ramsay that no tales were ever spread of him, and yet he is notoriously regarded as cold, cruel, and deeply unnerving by the whole of the north. he does, in fact, have a bad reputation. and it does precede him. but roose is protected by his high birth, his status and position as lord of the dreadfort, by his military strength, and by his political and social loyalties + securities as ned stark's bannerman who raised his banners in support of robert's (successful!) rebellion. he, like his son, preys on anonymous northern peasant girls who have no recourse for justice, but he's not quite so loud about it.

speaking of roose's son, let's pivot to domeric real quick.

"Lord Bolton has never acknowledged the boy, so far as I know," Ser Rodrik said. "I confess, I do not know him." "Few do," she replied. "He lived with his mother until two years past, when young Domeric died and left Bolton without an heir. That was when he brought his bastard to the Dreadfort. The boy is a sly creature by all accounts, and he has a servant who is almost as cruel as he is. Reek, they call the man. It's said he never bathes. They hunt together, the Bastard and this Reek, and not for deer. I've heard tales, things I can scarce believe, even of a Bolton. And now that my lord husband and my sweet son have gone to the gods, the Bastard looks at my lands hungrily."

acok; chapter 16, bran ii

from lady hornwood we learn that ramsay was only brought to the dreadfort (and still not publicly acknowledged) after the death of roose's only son and heir

The Lady Walda wrote from the Twins almost every day, but all the letters were the same. "I pray for you morn, noon, and night, my sweet lord," she wrote, "and count the days until you share my bed again. Return to me soon, and I will give you many trueborn sons to take the place of your dear Domeric and rule the Dreadfort after you." Arya pictured a plump pink baby in a cradle, covered with plump pink leeches.

acok; chapter 64, arya x

from walda we get a very young noblewoman's practiced courtesies, assuring her lord husband (a stranger to her) that she will do her duty as his wife and produce him healthy, hale heirs. and we might assume that "your dear domeric" here is just a bit of poetic alliteration that walda includes in her letter to be flowery.

but roose himself talks about domeric in a way that is totally unlike how roose talks about anyone else at all.

"He is your only son." "For the moment. I had another, once. Domeric. A quiet boy, but most accomplished. He served four years as Lady Dustin's page, and three in the Vale as a squire to Lord Redfort. He played the high harp, read histories, and rode like the wind. Horses … the boy was mad for horses, Lady Dustin will tell you. Not even Lord Rickard's daughter could outrace him, and that one was half a horse herself. Redfort said he showed great promise in the lists. A great jouster must be a great horseman first." "Ramsay killed him. A sickness of the bowels, Maester Uthor says, but I say poison. In the Vale, Domeric had enjoyed the company of Redfort's sons. He wanted a brother by his side, so he rode up the Weeping Water to seek my bastard out. I forbade it, but Domeric was a man grown and thought that he knew better than his father. Now his bones lie beneath the Dreadfort with the bones of his brothers, who died still in the cradle, and I am left with Ramsay. Tell me, my lord … if the kinslayer is accursed, what is a father to do when one son slays another?"

adwd; chapter 32, reek iii

domeric is given a depth and a personhood in roose's memories that his three wives and his rape victim are not. he speaks about domeric with a great and enduring father's love and a fierce pride. he goes out of his way to tell theon (a boy lord reduced to a pitiful, nearly inhuman state) about his accomplishments and his interests. roose loved his son.

and his other son -- a culmination of all his many years of cruelty and predation, a congealing together of all his bad blood -- kills him.

roose bringing ramsay to the dreadfort, even before legitimizing him, is his admission that ramsay is the only son he will ever have. he will never sire another heir. ramsay will make certain that any he might produce go to their graves. rams is the death of his house. roose acknowledges that explicitly in reek iii, but he admitted it to himself as soon as he summoned rams from weeping water.

roose's decision not to have any more children is a very intentional one. he is not trying to solve the problem of ramsay killing all his potential heirs. he knows that this will be inevitable. he has accepted that his bastard son snuffed out his one beloved heir, and that the gods have bound his hands. he cannot kill ramsay, for the gods abhor a kinslayer. and yet ramsay is a kinslayer himself, which roose is well aware of. ramsay is only a shadow of the father, and a reflection of his many sins. he is both a result of and a punishment for roose's cruelty.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

in asoiaf, what is the order of succession for nobles and for the throne (as i’ve read they are different)?

They are indeed different. In most of Westeros, they use traditional Andal succession, known in our world as male-preference primogeniture. This puts women at the back of the line, so to speak, but does not exclude them. A lord's eldest son inherits, even if he has older daughters, followed by the remainder of his sons by age, and then his daughters, and then would move up to the previous generations with his brothers and then his sisters. "A daughter comes before an uncle," as they say. For example, with the Starks, Ned's succession is Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya. (Benjen is excluded for being a man of the Night's Watch; Jon is excluded by being a bastard and a man of the Night's Watch. But of course there's complications.) This succession also includes the heirs of the heirs, so for example Hoster Tully's succession is Edmure-Catelyn-Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya-Lysa-Robert-Brynden.

Note there are exceptions to this, even after King Jaehaerys I Targaryen codified the laws across Westeros. Sometimes these exceptions appear to be cultural. For example, somehow House Stark has never had a ruling lady in all its reported 8000 years of existence, and the time we know they should have, Cregan Stark's eldest (and late lamented) son Rickon's eldest daughter Sansa was (forcefully?) married to Cregan's eldest son from his third marriage, her half-uncle Jonnel, who became the lord instead. Another example - after Balon Greyjoy dies, a maester insists that "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law", and Aeron Greyjoy dismisses it contemptuously as "green land law", and thinks the Iron Islands will never follow a woman.

Sometimes these exceptions appear to be just plain misogyny - like when Big and Little Walder Frey discuss the succession of the Twins, they don't count the women in the line. Mind you the Walders are children and may not know true details; but time will tell if Edwyn's daughter Walda will inherit or if her uncle Black Walder will seize the Twins. (Probably the latter.) Of course little Walda also has the problem of being a child heiress, but child heiresses have become ruling ladies before -- like Jeyne Arryn, whose inheritance was contested multiple times by her male cousins -- or like Cerelle Lannister, who inherited at the age of 3 and ruled for a year before dying suddenly and her uncle Gerold became lord. Um. It's hard out there for a girl. 😭

And in Dorne, they use a different form of succession entirely -- Rhoynar tradition, what we call absolute primogeniture. Much simpler, there the eldest child inherits regardless of sex. So Doran's heirs are Arianne-Quentyn-Trystane-{Elia}-{Rhaenys}-{Aegon}-Oberyn. Of course, Dorne has its own exceptions: per GRRM, a few houses in the mountains, least affected by the Rhoynar, may sometimes follow Andal tradition instead, which is likely the reason why Cletus Yronwood was considered the heir instead of his older sister Ynys. (Mind you, Cletus is dead now, and Anders Yronwood only has daughters left, so sucks to be a man compared to Criston Cole, doesn't it?) And Arianne was worried that Doran was going to have Quentyn inherit instead of her, but she didn't know that Doran was actually planning to make her queen of Westeros, which would take her out of the Sunspear succession (in the same way that Myriah Martell married Daeron II Targaryen and her younger brother Maron became Prince of Dorne).

Now. The Targaryen succession to the throne is a different matter. For them, they've had the competing issues of tradition, king's choice, sexist lords voting sexism, even more tradition, and politics. (Sooo much politics.) Putting the rest of this behind a cut because it was already a long post but it got longer:

From the start, as far as we know the pre-Conquest Targaryens in Westeros used traditional Andal succession. (It's unknown how succession was handled in Valyria, or if there was a difference between the dragonrider families and any others.) There is a brief mention that Aenar the Exile's grandchildren, Aegon and Elaena, ruled together, but every other Lord of Dragonstone was indeed a lord, and hardly any daughters are even referred to. By the time we get to the Conquest trio, we know that Visenya was the eldest child, and yet her younger brother Aegon was Lord of Dragonstone. And later, Aegon was the king, with his sister-wives as his queens (though unlike later queens, they sat the Iron Throne and handled day-to-day governance of the realm).

The first time we see an issue with this succession tradition was when King Aenys died and his half-brother Maegor usurped (and later killed) Aenys's eldest son Aegon. By Andal tradition, Aegon and his sister-wife Rhaena's eldest daughter Aerea should have succeeded after Maegor died (he considered her his heir until he had children of his own), but instead Aegon's younger brother Jaehaerys became king. Political issues there: Jaehaerys actually successfully contested Maegor's rule, he was a strong teen boy with a sword and a dragon where Aerea was a girl of six who'd been in hiding most of her life, her mother Rhaena had been forcefully married to Maegor and had few supporters, Aerea had been named heir by Maegor specifically to cut out Jaehaerys, etc. Though note Aerea was considered Jaehaerys's heir... until he had children of his own. And as for Rhaena (Aenys's eldest child), she never actually vied for the throne after Maegor's death, but later in her life she bitterly told Jaehaerys "you have my throne, content yourself with that."

As for Jaehaerys and his children, from the start there were problems, when Queen Alysanne expected their eldest child Daenerys to be queen one day (why Alysanne expected the throne to follow absolute primogeniture at this point is unknown), and Jae was like, sure, our second child Aemon will be king and she'll be his wife! But Daenerys died as a child, and as for Aemon, he died too, albeit as a father of a grown daughter with a child of her own on the way. And there you have Jae sexism part 2, instead of naming Rhaenys as his heir, he instead named his second living son, Baelon, as his heir. So here's the precedent where the throne deliberately denied Andal succession tradition, and instead went with king's choice.

Then 9 years after Aemon's death, Baelon also died, and Jaehaerys held the Great Council of 101 AC, for all the lords of Westeros to decide between all of Jaehaerys's potential heirs. In the end, the final choice was between Aemon's daughter Rhaenys's son Laenor (Rhaenys herself was also in competition, though her claim was dismissed early) and Baelon's son Viserys. By a large percentage, the lords chose Viserys. According to maesters,

In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendants.

This female-exclusive tradition is known in our world as agnatic primogeniture, or Salic law. However, this "iron precedent" was not that iron even from the beginning. Viserys and his wife Aemma only had one living child, Rhaenyra, so Viserys's brother Daemon was considered his heir until a son was born. And, well, if you've seen the first episode of HOTD you know what happened, because of Daemon's fuckup Viserys deliberately dismissed him, "disregarding the precedents set by [...] the Great Council in 101", but used the precedent of king's choice to name Rhaenyra as his heir and make all the lord of Westeros vow to obey that decision. Again, you've seen what happened next -- Viserys then remarried and had sons, whose grandfather used the Andal tradition to try to make Viserys name as heirs, but he refused to bypass Rhaenyra. In the end, though, when the Green Council formed after Viserys's death,

Ser Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath. I was a child at the time.” Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92, then discoursed at length about Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, and the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter.

So the law cited to name Aegon II king was one king's choice vs another king's choice, as well as Andal tradition and the "iron precedent" of the Great Council. And thus we got the Dance of the Dragons, Rhaenyra vs Aegon II.

But what about afterwards? What does Fire & Blood say about Aegon III, how did the maesters decide he inherited, through Aegon II (as his only living male relative), as Daemon's son, or as Rhaenyra's son? Well, it doesn't actually explain this point! The moment Aegon II died, Corlys Velaryon's men were freeing Aegon the Younger from his hostage prison, and then when the late Rhaenyra's (finally) winning army showed up at the gates of King's Landing, we just have Corlys saying, "The king is dead, long live the king." No maester commentary on the precedent at all, much to the frustration of backseat lawyers and historians in the fandom, who keep arguing one way or the other, or the various fandom teams, who keep arguing which side actually won.* 😅

*The answer is nobody. Nobody won.

And note that because Aegon III had no known living male relatives at the time (his brother Viserys was missing and presumed dead), his half-sisters Baela and Rhaena were considered his heirs, again despite this supposed "iron precedent". Leading to one of my favorite quotes from F&B:

Yet it was Grand Maester Munkun who put an end to the debate when he said, “My lords, it makes no matter. They are both girls. Have we learned so little from the slaughter? We must abide by primogeniture, as the Great Council ruled in 101. The male claim comes before the female.” Yet when Ser Tyland said, “And who is this male claimant, my lord? We seem to have killed them all,” Munkun had no answer but to say he would research the issue.

Though Aegon III's council and regents really wanted Baela to have a proper son, and when she rejected their (fat old guy) intended husband and instead eloped with a legitimized bastard, they wasted no time getting her sister Rhaena married to someone suitable, though she actually chose her husband, an older knight she'd become friends with in the Vale. And then Unwin Peake killed off Aegon II's daughter Jaehaera in order to marry Aegon III to his own daughter, and Baela and Rhaena did an end run with a new wife for their brother, a very young girl he didn't touch for 10 years... Of course, all this plotting came to nothing when Viserys did show up alive, so the lords could be satisfied with no need for an icky girl queen, the very idea.

The next time we see any competing issues of precedent for the succession to the throne was after Aegon III's second son, Baelor the Blessed, died without any children. By rights, per Andal tradition, his successor should have been his sister (and ex-wife) Daena. However, because Baelor had imprisoned Daena and her sisters in the Maidenvault for 10 years, they had few supporters, complicated by the fact that Daena had also recently had a bastard and refused to name the father. And of course, the Dance was still on everyone's mind as it had ended only 40 years before. So,

The precedents of the Great Council of 101 and the Dance of the Dragons were therefore cited, and the claims of Baelor's sisters were set aside. Instead the crown passed to his uncle, the King's Hand, Prince Viserys.

And Viserys II was followed by his son Aegon IV and so on. After this point, we do not have any real questions about gender and succession for a while. (Though some wonder, when Daemon Blackfyre vied for the throne, if he ever cited his mother Daena's stolen claim, in addition to being the unstated choice of his father Aegon IV. Also Aerys I named his niece Aelora as his heir after her brother-husband Aelor died, but she also died before Aerys did.) By the time of the Great Council of 233 AC, the claim of Vaella, only child of Maekar's eldest son Daeron, was dismissed immediately, though note she was also considered "simple", and Maekar's fourth son came to the throne as Aegon V.

And then in 283 AC, Robert Baratheon took the throne from the Targaryens. While many believe he took the throne by conquest (killing King Aerys II Targaryen's heir Rhaegar, while Aerys was killed by Jaime Lannister), maesters cite the fact that Robert was the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V! So where is that "iron precedent" now, with Robert as the descendant of a Targaryen woman? And Robert's brother Stannis considers his daughter Shireen to be his heir, and people in Westeros in general consider Robert's daughter Myrcella to be his heir (after her brothers Joffrey and Tommen). Not to mention the fact that (claimant king in exile) Viserys considered Dany his heir, naming her Princess of Dragonstone.

So. Theoretically by the time of the main books, this "no women allowed ever" precedent for royal succession is still out there. In practice, however, the throne currently either follows Andal tradition of sons before daughters (but yes, including daughters), or the "whoever has the larger army" tradition of old. And that will be what truly decides the question of Aegon (or Jon) vs Daenerys, whether Rhaegar's line was disinherited by Aerys II or whether any maesters pop up to say "but iron precedent!" or what. Fire and blood, as always.

[duchess-of-oldtown]

According to the way they adapted Fire and Blood in House of the Dragon, we can probably expect some changes in Dunk and Egg:

Dunk is actually the long lost son of Daemon Blackfyre and Dornish Daenerys Targaryen (y'know because EVERYONE has to have their parents explained)

Egg will not be loyal to Dunk, he'll be a total scumbag

Maekar DID kill Baelor on purpose.

Before Baelor dies he whispers that Egg should be King and Dunk must immediately be named a Kingsguard.

Aerion will commit like one actrocity and then get a redemption arc.

Bloodraven and Bittersteel are estranged lovers (this could work) and all this is a bitter divorce

Bloodraven gets his info by selling feet pics. The trees told him that's how Alicent did it.

Shiera Seastar DOES actually eat children and bathe in blood.

Daeron the Drunken will take so much fantasy cocaine/LSD that the whole thing was actually all an acid trip

Daemon II Blackfyre will not serve cunt or camp.

The Blackfyre Rebellion? All happened in one big miscommunication Trope.

The dragons aren't dead, they're actually just finding themselves in the wilderness, you know? They're just really getting into their earthy crunch side.

Maekar Targaryen will do nothing all season. Just serve face and say offensive shit

The Dornish will be an integral part of the season. You will only know about it because of Behind the Episode.

Valarr Targaryen is a socialist and that is why they killed him off.

The mastermind behind all the Targaryen deaths? Baby Walder Frey.

Who really stole the dragon egg at Whitewalls? Time Travelling Penny in disguise.