#big walder!!!!!

[greywoe]

the walders being wary of shaggydog

[ladystoneboobs]

anyways, speaking of cannibalism, wrt frey pies in particular, it just hit me that the rat cook song is not just a way for wyman to slyly telegraph what he did w/o any of his in-world foes noticing, it could also be his justification just as much as inspiration. let's look back at how we learned of the legend through bran:

"It was not for murder that the gods cursed him," Old Nan said, "nor for serving the Andal king his son in a pie. A man has a right to vengeance. But he slew a guest beneath his roof, and that the gods cannot forgive." -Bran IV, aSoS

so, in other words: 1) violating guest right is the most heinous of crimes and 2) if guest right is not violated then murder and even cannibalizing the murdered to feed to their own kin is a-ok so long as the motive is personal revenge. by giving guest gifts to the 3 frey envoys to end any guest rite bond asap and get to the killings, wyman not only gets just a feeling of moral superiority by at least not committing the same type of crime as the enemies he killed, he also ensured that his vengeance could be divinely sanctioned as a natural right correctly exercised, unlike how the rat cook did his. he learned his lessons from this northern legend and improved upon the actions of this nightfort cook accordingly. thing is, the justified right to vengeance has to be just an old gods thing, not fitting in with the seven (which house manderly had converted to 1000s of years ago back in the reach) as the christainity stand-in, which is just evidence of the depth of manderly northern assimilation and/or that old dark ways never entirely disappear, no matter the religion. wyman manderly can still worship the "new" gods with just as much urge toward old-fashioned bloody revenge as any old gods worshipping northman, not so different from his vassal ser bartimus in the wolf's den who bragged to davos that his ancestors were likely among those who once hung slavers' entrails in a heart tree as a bloody offering to the old gods.

[motorway-south]

the asoiaf key five are actually littlefinger kevan lannister the frey kids that bran beefs with in acok jorah mormont and barbrey dustin and those are the only characters u need to understand the story

[venezashade]

The Blackstone.

FINALLY THE DAY HAS COME

My art work for Toinette’s incredible fanfic is finally out! It’s a tease for what you will all see later today, so go subscribe to https://archiveofourown.org/users/Toinette93 for CoC and Malevolent fanfic bangers! I’m going to link this specific fanfic as soon as it will come out :3 It’s not your ordinary Malevolent content, there is so much Harlan’s CoC campaigns lore……….

I’m so glad I participated for this year @malevolentbigbang ! And I could do an art inspired by my friend’s fanfic! Not gonna lie, I was really worried how it will turn out and if I could make it in time, but I did it! Go check other authors and artists’ work for Malevolent Big Bang 2024! THERE IS SO MUCH TO DISCOVER!!!

Also check @sleepinbird, something’s coming there too for this fic today tehehehehehhehehhehehehhehe

[ID: Coloured art piece with chiaroscuro and details with the characters: Neitsh, Erwin, Entie, Petra, Jan, John and Arthur trapped in The Blackstone with a visible kind of psychedelic lines around them. There are bloody Kayne’s hands that float around them and there is blood all around the line of the stone. The background is in shades of dark purple and dark red, almost black with green floaty floral additions. In all the places of the art piece, the bright colours look like they are glowing in the dark, there is a very strong contrast between the dark shades and light elements. /END ID]

[ashamaxxing]

was describing the winterfell plotline in acok to my friend and realized it’s just this

[atopvisenyashill]

i was trying to make sigils/personal heraldry for some canon characters who are mentioned to have them but canva's background erase is so stupid, it doesn't recognize that sometimes the background is not black, so it keeps trying to erase the little black plowman and the little black and white pig in the sigil instead of, ya know, the huge block of brown in the background. this is discrimination against the freys and i won't stand for it!!!!!

[stannis-the-freaking-mannis]

house pie

[alethianightsong]

Big Mom is the Walder Frey of One Piece and no, I will not elaborate further.

[nobodysuspectsthebutterfly]

in asoiaf, what is the order of succession for nobles and for the throne (as i’ve read they are different)?

They are indeed different. In most of Westeros, they use traditional Andal succession, known in our world as male-preference primogeniture. This puts women at the back of the line, so to speak, but does not exclude them. A lord's eldest son inherits, even if he has older daughters, followed by the remainder of his sons by age, and then his daughters, and then would move up to the previous generations with his brothers and then his sisters. "A daughter comes before an uncle," as they say. For example, with the Starks, Ned's succession is Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya. (Benjen is excluded for being a man of the Night's Watch; Jon is excluded by being a bastard and a man of the Night's Watch. But of course there's complications.) This succession also includes the heirs of the heirs, so for example Hoster Tully's succession is Edmure-Catelyn-Robb-Bran-Rickon-Sansa-Arya-Lysa-Robert-Brynden.

Note there are exceptions to this, even after King Jaehaerys I Targaryen codified the laws across Westeros. Sometimes these exceptions appear to be cultural. For example, somehow House Stark has never had a ruling lady in all its reported 8000 years of existence, and the time we know they should have, Cregan Stark's eldest (and late lamented) son Rickon's eldest daughter Sansa was (forcefully?) married to Cregan's eldest son from his third marriage, her half-uncle Jonnel, who became the lord instead. Another example - after Balon Greyjoy dies, a maester insists that "By rights the Seastone Chair belongs to Theon, or Asha if the prince is dead. That is the law", and Aeron Greyjoy dismisses it contemptuously as "green land law", and thinks the Iron Islands will never follow a woman.

Sometimes these exceptions appear to be just plain misogyny - like when Big and Little Walder Frey discuss the succession of the Twins, they don't count the women in the line. Mind you the Walders are children and may not know true details; but time will tell if Edwyn's daughter Walda will inherit or if her uncle Black Walder will seize the Twins. (Probably the latter.) Of course little Walda also has the problem of being a child heiress, but child heiresses have become ruling ladies before -- like Jeyne Arryn, whose inheritance was contested multiple times by her male cousins -- or like Cerelle Lannister, who inherited at the age of 3 and ruled for a year before dying suddenly and her uncle Gerold became lord. Um. It's hard out there for a girl. 😭

And in Dorne, they use a different form of succession entirely -- Rhoynar tradition, what we call absolute primogeniture. Much simpler, there the eldest child inherits regardless of sex. So Doran's heirs are Arianne-Quentyn-Trystane-{Elia}-{Rhaenys}-{Aegon}-Oberyn. Of course, Dorne has its own exceptions: per GRRM, a few houses in the mountains, least affected by the Rhoynar, may sometimes follow Andal tradition instead, which is likely the reason why Cletus Yronwood was considered the heir instead of his older sister Ynys. (Mind you, Cletus is dead now, and Anders Yronwood only has daughters left, so sucks to be a man compared to Criston Cole, doesn't it?) And Arianne was worried that Doran was going to have Quentyn inherit instead of her, but she didn't know that Doran was actually planning to make her queen of Westeros, which would take her out of the Sunspear succession (in the same way that Myriah Martell married Daeron II Targaryen and her younger brother Maron became Prince of Dorne).

Now. The Targaryen succession to the throne is a different matter. For them, they've had the competing issues of tradition, king's choice, sexist lords voting sexism, even more tradition, and politics. (Sooo much politics.) Putting the rest of this behind a cut because it was already a long post but it got longer:

From the start, as far as we know the pre-Conquest Targaryens in Westeros used traditional Andal succession. (It's unknown how succession was handled in Valyria, or if there was a difference between the dragonrider families and any others.) There is a brief mention that Aenar the Exile's grandchildren, Aegon and Elaena, ruled together, but every other Lord of Dragonstone was indeed a lord, and hardly any daughters are even referred to. By the time we get to the Conquest trio, we know that Visenya was the eldest child, and yet her younger brother Aegon was Lord of Dragonstone. And later, Aegon was the king, with his sister-wives as his queens (though unlike later queens, they sat the Iron Throne and handled day-to-day governance of the realm).

The first time we see an issue with this succession tradition was when King Aenys died and his half-brother Maegor usurped (and later killed) Aenys's eldest son Aegon. By Andal tradition, Aegon and his sister-wife Rhaena's eldest daughter Aerea should have succeeded after Maegor died (he considered her his heir until he had children of his own), but instead Aegon's younger brother Jaehaerys became king. Political issues there: Jaehaerys actually successfully contested Maegor's rule, he was a strong teen boy with a sword and a dragon where Aerea was a girl of six who'd been in hiding most of her life, her mother Rhaena had been forcefully married to Maegor and had few supporters, Aerea had been named heir by Maegor specifically to cut out Jaehaerys, etc. Though note Aerea was considered Jaehaerys's heir... until he had children of his own. And as for Rhaena (Aenys's eldest child), she never actually vied for the throne after Maegor's death, but later in her life she bitterly told Jaehaerys "you have my throne, content yourself with that."

As for Jaehaerys and his children, from the start there were problems, when Queen Alysanne expected their eldest child Daenerys to be queen one day (why Alysanne expected the throne to follow absolute primogeniture at this point is unknown), and Jae was like, sure, our second child Aemon will be king and she'll be his wife! But Daenerys died as a child, and as for Aemon, he died too, albeit as a father of a grown daughter with a child of her own on the way. And there you have Jae sexism part 2, instead of naming Rhaenys as his heir, he instead named his second living son, Baelon, as his heir. So here's the precedent where the throne deliberately denied Andal succession tradition, and instead went with king's choice.

Then 9 years after Aemon's death, Baelon also died, and Jaehaerys held the Great Council of 101 AC, for all the lords of Westeros to decide between all of Jaehaerys's potential heirs. In the end, the final choice was between Aemon's daughter Rhaenys's son Laenor (Rhaenys herself was also in competition, though her claim was dismissed early) and Baelon's son Viserys. By a large percentage, the lords chose Viserys. According to maesters,

In the eyes of many, the Great Council of 101 AC thereby established an iron precedent on matters of succession: regardless of seniority, the Iron Throne of Westeros could not pass to a woman, nor through a woman to her male descendants.

This female-exclusive tradition is known in our world as agnatic primogeniture, or Salic law. However, this "iron precedent" was not that iron even from the beginning. Viserys and his wife Aemma only had one living child, Rhaenyra, so Viserys's brother Daemon was considered his heir until a son was born. And, well, if you've seen the first episode of HOTD you know what happened, because of Daemon's fuckup Viserys deliberately dismissed him, "disregarding the precedents set by [...] the Great Council in 101", but used the precedent of king's choice to name Rhaenyra as his heir and make all the lord of Westeros vow to obey that decision. Again, you've seen what happened next -- Viserys then remarried and had sons, whose grandfather used the Andal tradition to try to make Viserys name as heirs, but he refused to bypass Rhaenyra. In the end, though, when the Green Council formed after Viserys's death,

Ser Tyland pointed out that many of the lords who had sworn to defend the succession of Princess Rhaenyra were long dead. “It has been twenty-four years,” he said. “I myself swore no such oath. I was a child at the time.” Ironrod, the master of laws, cited the Great Council of 101 and the Old King’s choice of Baelon rather than Rhaenys in 92, then discoursed at length about Aegon the Conqueror and his sisters, and the hallowed Andal tradition wherein the rights of a trueborn son always came before the rights of a mere daughter.

So the law cited to name Aegon II king was one king's choice vs another king's choice, as well as Andal tradition and the "iron precedent" of the Great Council. And thus we got the Dance of the Dragons, Rhaenyra vs Aegon II.

But what about afterwards? What does Fire & Blood say about Aegon III, how did the maesters decide he inherited, through Aegon II (as his only living male relative), as Daemon's son, or as Rhaenyra's son? Well, it doesn't actually explain this point! The moment Aegon II died, Corlys Velaryon's men were freeing Aegon the Younger from his hostage prison, and then when the late Rhaenyra's (finally) winning army showed up at the gates of King's Landing, we just have Corlys saying, "The king is dead, long live the king." No maester commentary on the precedent at all, much to the frustration of backseat lawyers and historians in the fandom, who keep arguing one way or the other, or the various fandom teams, who keep arguing which side actually won.* 😅

*The answer is nobody. Nobody won.

And note that because Aegon III had no known living male relatives at the time (his brother Viserys was missing and presumed dead), his half-sisters Baela and Rhaena were considered his heirs, again despite this supposed "iron precedent". Leading to one of my favorite quotes from F&B:

Yet it was Grand Maester Munkun who put an end to the debate when he said, “My lords, it makes no matter. They are both girls. Have we learned so little from the slaughter? We must abide by primogeniture, as the Great Council ruled in 101. The male claim comes before the female.” Yet when Ser Tyland said, “And who is this male claimant, my lord? We seem to have killed them all,” Munkun had no answer but to say he would research the issue.

Though Aegon III's council and regents really wanted Baela to have a proper son, and when she rejected their (fat old guy) intended husband and instead eloped with a legitimized bastard, they wasted no time getting her sister Rhaena married to someone suitable, though she actually chose her husband, an older knight she'd become friends with in the Vale. And then Unwin Peake killed off Aegon II's daughter Jaehaera in order to marry Aegon III to his own daughter, and Baela and Rhaena did an end run with a new wife for their brother, a very young girl he didn't touch for 10 years... Of course, all this plotting came to nothing when Viserys did show up alive, so the lords could be satisfied with no need for an icky girl queen, the very idea.

The next time we see any competing issues of precedent for the succession to the throne was after Aegon III's second son, Baelor the Blessed, died without any children. By rights, per Andal tradition, his successor should have been his sister (and ex-wife) Daena. However, because Baelor had imprisoned Daena and her sisters in the Maidenvault for 10 years, they had few supporters, complicated by the fact that Daena had also recently had a bastard and refused to name the father. And of course, the Dance was still on everyone's mind as it had ended only 40 years before. So,

The precedents of the Great Council of 101 and the Dance of the Dragons were therefore cited, and the claims of Baelor's sisters were set aside. Instead the crown passed to his uncle, the King's Hand, Prince Viserys.

And Viserys II was followed by his son Aegon IV and so on. After this point, we do not have any real questions about gender and succession for a while. (Though some wonder, when Daemon Blackfyre vied for the throne, if he ever cited his mother Daena's stolen claim, in addition to being the unstated choice of his father Aegon IV. Also Aerys I named his niece Aelora as his heir after her brother-husband Aelor died, but she also died before Aerys did.) By the time of the Great Council of 233 AC, the claim of Vaella, only child of Maekar's eldest son Daeron, was dismissed immediately, though note she was also considered "simple", and Maekar's fourth son came to the throne as Aegon V.

And then in 283 AC, Robert Baratheon took the throne from the Targaryens. While many believe he took the throne by conquest (killing King Aerys II Targaryen's heir Rhaegar, while Aerys was killed by Jaime Lannister), maesters cite the fact that Robert was the grandson of Rhaelle Targaryen, daughter of Aegon V! So where is that "iron precedent" now, with Robert as the descendant of a Targaryen woman? And Robert's brother Stannis considers his daughter Shireen to be his heir, and people in Westeros in general consider Robert's daughter Myrcella to be his heir (after her brothers Joffrey and Tommen). Not to mention the fact that (claimant king in exile) Viserys considered Dany his heir, naming her Princess of Dragonstone.

So. Theoretically by the time of the main books, this "no women allowed ever" precedent for royal succession is still out there. In practice, however, the throne currently either follows Andal tradition of sons before daughters (but yes, including daughters), or the "whoever has the larger army" tradition of old. And that will be what truly decides the question of Aegon (or Jon) vs Daenerys, whether Rhaegar's line was disinherited by Aerys II or whether any maesters pop up to say "but iron precedent!" or what. Fire and blood, as always.

[duchess-of-oldtown]

According to the way they adapted Fire and Blood in House of the Dragon, we can probably expect some changes in Dunk and Egg:

Dunk is actually the long lost son of Daemon Blackfyre and Dornish Daenerys Targaryen (y'know because EVERYONE has to have their parents explained)

Egg will not be loyal to Dunk, he'll be a total scumbag

Maekar DID kill Baelor on purpose.

Before Baelor dies he whispers that Egg should be King and Dunk must immediately be named a Kingsguard.

Aerion will commit like one actrocity and then get a redemption arc.

Bloodraven and Bittersteel are estranged lovers (this could work) and all this is a bitter divorce

Bloodraven gets his info by selling feet pics. The trees told him that's how Alicent did it.

Shiera Seastar DOES actually eat children and bathe in blood.

Daeron the Drunken will take so much fantasy cocaine/LSD that the whole thing was actually all an acid trip

Daemon II Blackfyre will not serve cunt or camp.

The Blackfyre Rebellion? All happened in one big miscommunication Trope.

The dragons aren't dead, they're actually just finding themselves in the wilderness, you know? They're just really getting into their earthy crunch side.

Maekar Targaryen will do nothing all season. Just serve face and say offensive shit

The Dornish will be an integral part of the season. You will only know about it because of Behind the Episode.

Valarr Targaryen is a socialist and that is why they killed him off.

The mastermind behind all the Targaryen deaths? Baby Walder Frey.

Who really stole the dragon egg at Whitewalls? Time Travelling Penny in disguise.

[amber-laughs]

“They’re dogs and he’s a wolf,” said Jon. “They know he’s not their kind.”

Lord Ramsay laughed. "You're not a man, Reek. You're just my creature. You'll have your wine, though. Walder, see to it. And fear not, I won't return you to the dungeons, you have my word as a Bolton. We'll make a dog of you instead. Meat every day, and I'll even leave you teeth enough to eat it. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

"I see what you are, Snow. Half a wolf and half a wildling, baseborn get of a traitor and a whore. You would deliver a highborn maid to the bed of some stinking savage. Did you sample her yourself first? A Dance with Dragons - Jon X

When Little Walder pulled him up and Big Walder waved the torch at him to herd him from the cell, he went along as docile as a dog. If he'd had a tail, he would have tucked it down between his legs. A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

"Aye. All that, and more. You are a warg too, they say, a skinchanger who walks at night as a wolf." King Stannis had a hard smile. "How much of it is true?" A Storm of Swords - Jon XI

That night, besides the collar, there was a ragged blanket too, and half a chicken. Reek had to fight the dogs for the meat, but it was the best meal he'd had since Winterfell. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

 The smells are stronger in my wolf dreams, he reflected, and food tastes richer too. Ghost is more alive than I am. He left the empty cup upon the forge. A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

The other man had been a good rider, but Reek was uneasy on horseback. It had been so long. He was no rider. He was not even a man. He was Lord Ramsay's creature, lower than a dog, a worm in human skin. A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

“The Weeper’s red rheumy eyes gave Jon another look. “Aye? Well, he has a wolfish cast to him, now as I look close.” A Storm of Swords - Jon I

"Reek," he said. "Your Reek." "Do this little thing for me, and you can be my dog and eat meat every day," Lord Ramsay promised.  A Dance with Dragons - Reek II

The taste of hot blood filled Jon's mouth, and he knew that Ghost had killed that night. No, he thought. I am a man, not a wolf. He rubbed his mouth with the back of a gloved hand and spat. A Dance with Dragons - Jon II

Damon Dance-for-Me sat greasing up his whip. "Reek," he called. He tapped the whip against his calf as a man might do to summon his dog. "You are starting to stink again, Reek." A Dance with Dragons - A Ghost in Winterfell

"The beast," he gasped. "Look! The beast that tore the life from Halfhand. A warg walks among us, brothers. A WARG! This . . . this creature is not fit to lead us! This beastling is not fit to live!" A Storm of Swords - Jon XII

"You would have done better to slit his throat," said the lord in mail. "A dog who turns against his master is fit for naught but skinning." "Oh, he's been skinned, here and there," said Ramsay. A Dance with Dragons - Reek I

[rheanyraaaa]

broken pearls Robb Stark x Frey!Reader (oc inspired)

warnings: miscarriage, mentions of self-harming, mentions of past sexual assault and somewhat explicit, foul language.

side note: i’ve never watched GOT but i’ve watched my fair share of Robb Stark edits and have some understanding on what’s going on + have read lots of fanfic and done research so i can’t say this will seem super canon or make any sense.

this is my first time ever writing a fic on tumblr i hope you found it somewhat bearable (not proofread so might be so grammatical errors)

“whose heart is filled with love, God only loves that one person.”

summary: you miscarried recently, from stress of the war and Robb’s affair with Talisa. You thought it would stop after you married, but he still lays in her tent, now you’ve lost your baby. The one thing holding you together

You sit on the furs, on the floor by the fireplace, you thought married life to the Young Wolf would be kinder to you, you thought he’d show you things that you never got to understand, you were travelling with him, you were seeing more world then your father ever let you see. Yet somehow, despite the coldness of the Twins, you missed the halls, you missed your sisters and you missed the familiarity of it all.

Everyone here hates you, everyone here thinks little of you, despite being their Queen, you were practically a southerner after all, you could deal with the cold winds more then good enough, you could somewhat deal with the snares of the onlookers, and the looks of disgust. You didn’t get it, didn’t get why they had to do it, and you thought Robb would protect you from it.

It’s been a couple weeks since you spoke to him, you had argued, it was a big argument, you’d throw your whole jewellery box at him, you had gone hysterical mid fight, and probably threw a shoe at him at some point, he tried to calm you down, so did his mother, but you had spiralled. The words you said were unkind, blaming him for the death of his child was unkind. But you didn’t regret it, no you didn’t regret one word that came out of your usually sweet and nonchalant polite mouth, you had been waiting for a moment to break lose, and you felt like your father when you did. You felt like Walder Frey.

Everyone thinks your insane, and here you are sitting infront of the fireplace, on the furs, looking at how the red fire danced over the burning wood, they are probably right. Your eyes watery, red even, eye bags probably forming, but you couldn’t look away, something inside you was broken and has been broken for a long time, ever since you were fourteen, on a ambushed carriage, and three men deflowering you, each having their moment. You had told Robb this when you thought you could trust you, and he promised you he’d avenge you, but your sure he’s forgotten that promise now; sleeping in that bitches bed, no shame, you thought. She’s taken everything from you and you had every right to feel anger against her, she’s taken your husband, taken your mother in law, and is loved by the soldiers, while you are outcasted and considered as nothing less then the Frey wife.

You touch your now empty stomach, the baby that once thrived there all but gone, it was cold when Robb bedded you, but you liked the way he felt inside you, when he moved, or when you did, or the quiet noises he made, and the thin layer of sweat that covered you both, how he touched you, it seemed more respect then love, and after he made you cum he left the tent and probably went to tend to her. The baby was made out of fake love and duty no less, and died with no sympathy from the others.

Suddenly, the tent flap opened.

“Who’s there?” You asked, not looking from the fireplace, you knew it was him, the heavy boots against the floor made it obvious, the noise of the winds propelled outside and the loud clunking of metal armour made your dig your fingers into your side.

“mh, I want to speak to you,” His deep northern accent rumbled.

“Speak then, or do I have to order you to like a dog,” You grumble, picking at your nails, the fire light illuminating the scars over your wrists.

“She’s gone.” He said, his voice more quiet and soft then you’ve ever heard it.

“Who?” You ask, pretending to be uninterested.

“Talisa.” He spoke again, softly, You turn to look at him, trying not to show the slight joy you felt at never having to see her face.

“Finally. Did the winter chill finally kill her? or did a hint of water or rain burn the witch?” You rolled your eyes, and huffed as you continued picking your nails until they bleed.

“Enough. She’s not dead. I just sent her away from camp. My mother’s word not mine.” He growled, not looking away from you from one moment. “Why won’t you look at me?” He asked once more, as he stepped closer to where you sat.

“I might burn my eyes I’m afraid.” You chuckled coldly, before actually looking at him.

He chuckled quietly, “You have quite the mouth on your, my lady” He said beside you, looking directly at you, his knee touching yours.

“Why is she gone though?” You barely whispered, more sweetly and more calmly then you’ve ever spoken to him in a long time.

“She caused you pain. You are my wife and you are supposed to be my priority, but duty…. well the war and what I loved blinded me. I need to put you first, I was supposed to put you and the baby first. I’ve lost one I don’t want to lose the other.” He sounded… somewhat sad, but also filled with acceptance and much more mature then he was the last couple of months, he had care in his voice and it made you feel fuzzy.

“You’ve made me feel more than alone. Have you now realised whatever pain you’ve caused me? have you now seen the way you’ve treated me, or has your mother needed to coddle you and make you realise yourself?” You replied sharply, you didn’t want to forgive him so easily, you didn’t want him to think he won.

“My mother was always on your side, and I am truly sorry. I want to try this again, and properly, I want to show you love, and I want to allow you to experience such. You are beautiful, you are more radiant than the stars and the moon, and I want to show that to you.” He responded calmly, looking at you softly, all the gruff in his northern tongue seemingly gone, as he quietly took a strand of your hair and played with it. “You lost the baby and it was my fault. I did it. I want you to know that I accept it, and I always will carry it deep in my heart.” He rumbled on.

“But why did you do it in the first place? make me feel so much pain, I thought you’d be a good man.” You softly cried into the palm of your hands, they were red and sore from biting and ripping the skin.

He slowly crept closer to you, swiping your tears with his huge hands and playing with your hair, humming softly as he pulled you into his chest and let you cry into there instead.

“I’m sorry, I’m sorry love.” He said over and over again like a prayer, as you snuggled into him, you hated that you cried infront of him and we’re all vulnerable, you promised you’d never let anyone get close to you but he was breaking all the barriers and you didn’t know how to handle it.

“I don’t expect you to forgive me now, nor anytime soon, but for now on I will sleep in your bed. It will be our bed. And if any man gives you one wrong look or one whisper about you then I will have his head on a spike.” He said more rougher then before, his palm stroking your back as you hid your face in there.

“And we will mourn our baby, properly.” His hand splayed across your now empty stomach. “I am here to do my duty of loving you and protecting you, I am doing my duty as King, and as your husband. I had forgotten my father’s teachings but I remember them now, my love.” He said into your ear, as he looked onto the fireplace, as you nodded slowly into his chest, you definitely hadn’t forgiven him completely yet, but he was understanding, and you knew that one day you were ready to forgive, he just needed to show he cared.

[goodqueenaly]

Bit of a niche question, how would noble children be socialised with their peers rather than servants and retainers? Bran of course knows the Cerwyn heir very well who is half a day away and has family at Winterfel besides and Catelyn wonders if Jeyne used to be playmates with the squires from Casterly Rock who were murdered. I assume that noble children would occasionally be brought along to big occasions but would there be less incidental ways to bind the next generation early?

The first and likely most common way is probably exactly what you mention - visits between aristocratic families. You mention the Cerwyns visiting with the Starks relatively frequently, given the physical closeness of Castle Cerwyn to Winterfell, but it’s also worth noting that Halman and Benfred Tallhart did the same, as Bran remembers during that same event. Likewise, Arya recalls visiting White Harbor twice with Lord Eddard , while Catelyn recalls visiting the Twins as a girl; neither mentions specifically meeting, say, Wylla and Wynafryd or the many children and grandchildren Walder was already accumulating even in Catelyn’s youth, but I think it would have been virtually impossible for the aristocratic in each such instance not to have met and interacted with each other. These visits not only would give the adults the chance to talk business and renew bonds of fealty or alliance, but also potentially lay the groundwork for future dynastic pairings or continuations of such alliances between their children; in turn, interactions between these children might often be in such situations specifically targeted or formalized as much as they were personal (think of, say, young Alys Karstark being paired in dances with Robb Stark, or Joffrey and Tommen practicing in the yard with Robb and Bran).

(Which is not to say these interactions would always be positive - think of, say, Sam’s visit to the Arbor in his youth, and his cruel treatment by the Redwyne twins.)

Fostering, too, provides a very natural (by Westerosi standards) means for aristocratic children to socialize with peers outside of their immediate families. The examples of fostering throughout the series (and the history of Westeros) are too numerous to list for the purposes of this ask, but it’s worth noting as a very general point that fostered children are raised as virtual siblings with the children of the household in which they stay. While it’s certainly possible for fostered children to be relatives of the families with whom they are fostered, the dynastic distinction between these children allows for early lessons in how to identify, address, and interact with members of other families, not to mention how to (potentially) build friendships - think of, say, Robert and Ned in the Eyrie, or the pro-greenlands King Harmund II Hoare. (Which, again, is far from a guarantee - think of Jaime’s linger criticism of his fellow page and squire at Crakehall, Merrett Frey.)

Nor is fostering necessarily the only way for members, specifically children, of different Westerosi aristocratic families to find themselves in or around other households. Jeyne Poole and Beth Cassel were (and are) not very high-ranking aristocrats, certainly not equal to the Starks in terms of position, but as the scions of (I think) hereditary aristocratic officer families of Winterfell, Beth and especially Jeyne were seen as entirely suitable companions to the Starks, specifically Sansa. Too, if we take, say, Casterly Rock as an example, we can see a household of mixed aristocratic families (and, by extension, children): Kevan’s sons and daughter would have grown up not just with their cousin Tyrek Lannister, but also (thanks to Genna’s refusal to live away from Casterly Rock) some of their Frey cousins, “Red” Walder Frey and the grandsons of Cleos Frey - all descendants of Tytos Lannister, but from distinct branches (and, for the Freys, distinct paternal dynasties), which would strengthen those establish bonds.

Too, while not typical, it is nevertheless possible to have children brought into the household of a royal court. Magraery’s household as queen, for example, has included not just adult aristocratic Reach women but also younger girls from her homeland: not only her extended Tyrell cousins Megga, Elinor, and Alla but also little Alysanne Bulwer, children who may never have interacted with one another in their ordinary upbringings but would now have the opportunity to do so. Likewise, King Jaehaerys and Queen Alysanne took into their household their half-sister Jocelyn Baratheon when she was only six years old, to be raised as essentially an extra child of the royal couple within the household at King’s Landing (though of course the extent to which F&B, and by extension GRRM, ignores Jocelyn as a character never ceases to make me mad).

These are all examples rather than a finite list, of course, and it’s probably also worth noting that from an early age, aristocratic Westerosi children are prepared, through work and play, to recognize and interact with their social equals and superiors. We see from the experience of the Stark children that the study of heraldry is a key part of their education, setting them up early to recognize other families by their dynastic sigils. Too, one of aristocratic Westeros’ familiar childhood games is “come-into-my-castle”, a game which Tyrion remembers is “meant to teach [highborn children] courtesy, heraldry, and a thing or two about their lord father's friends and foes”. So from the first, highbor Westerosi children are socialized to interact with the wider (blue-blood) world around them.

Of course, it me, so I have to mention what this ask immediately made me think of from The Royal Succession, book four of The Accursed Kings:

The most surprising aspect of this dinner was the number of children present; for Eudes of Burgundy, having made it a condition of his own attendance that his niece, Jeanne of Navarre, should be present as some reparation for the outrage done her at the Assembly, the Count of Poitiers had decided to bring his three girls, the Count of Valois his latest offspring by his third marriage, the Count of Evreux his son and daughter, who were still of an age to play with dolls, the Dauphin of Viennois his little Guigues, the betrothed of the Regent’s third daughter, and the Duke of Burgundy his three children. There was continual confusion over Christian names; Blanches, Isabelles, Charleses and Philippes abounded; when someone cried ‘Jeanne!’ six heads turned together.

[eruherdiriel]

I love this passage so much.

The serving men brought every dish to Bran first, that he might take the lord's portion if he chose. By the time they reached the ducks, he could eat no more. After that he nodded approval at each course in turn, and waved it away. If the dish smelled especially choice, he would send it to one of the lords on the dais, a gesture of friendship and favor that Maester Luwin told him he must make. He sent some salmon down to poor sad Lady Hornwood, the boar to the boisterous Umbers, a dish of goose-in-berries to Cley Cerwyn, and a huge lobster to Joseth the master of horse, who was neither lord nor guest, but had seen to Dancer's training and made it possible for Bran to ride. He sent sweets to Hodor and Old Nan as well, for no reason but he loved them. Ser Rodrik reminded him to send something to his foster brothers, so he sent Little Walder some boiled beets and Big Walder the buttered turnips.

A Clash of Kings, Bran III

He listens to his advisors.

He appreciates what others do for him.

He shows people he loves them 🤗 🥺.

He can be petty (he's 8 okay!) and passive aggressive (and funny in the process).

[dalekofchaos]

How Robb could've won the North's independence

Realistically, it would be impossible for Robb to win the War of the Five Kings unless he teamed up with Stannis or somehow got married to Margaery Tyrell(Robb goes to treat with Renly instead of Cat, Renly dies and Robb convinces the Tyrells to join forces, only condition:marry Margaery). But it would've been possible to win The North's Independence.

Before we get into the how he could win, let's look into how and why Robb lost.

Sending Theon to Pyke. The beginning of the end. On one level Robb was right to trust Theon, because we see from Theon's POV chapters that he intended to stay true to Robb's cause…. up until his father rejected him and sent him to reave the West coast and Moat Callin with the other Ironborn. It's only after Theon has been rejected by his father and forced to serve on a ship with another captain (putting the heir to the seastone chair lower in rank than a battle commander) that Theon cracks and decides to do something big to prove he is a worthy heir to Balon Greyjoy. But Cat is also right: because she expected that something could go wrong. Now, she expected that Theon would betray Robb from the off, because she has a nasty suspicious streak and really assumes the worst about everybody - think of all the times she bleats that Jon can't stay at Winterfell as he'll usurp Robb's rights, and ask yourself: has there been any indication that Jon would ever do this? No. Jon could have worked his way up to captain of the Winterfell guard as a Stark bastard, and Robb would have been better protected by his much loved brother than anyone else. But because Cat is so deeply entrenched in her belief that bastards are grasping stealers of birthright, she cannot allow that possibility to even be discussed. Same thing happens with Theon. Cat knows more about Ironborn culture than Robb, and she appreciates that Theon has been a Stark prisoner for years whereas Robb unfortunately thinks of Theon as another adopted brother. But she fails to adequately explain to Robb that her concerns about Theon are not about Theon's character per se, but about Ironborn culture. She anticipates that something could go wrong - she doesn't see exactly what happens to turn Theon against the Starks, but she had enough knowledge of the Ironborn to make a case to Theon and Robb that Balon Greyjoy was a cantankerous old prick who would not be willing to provide a naval fleet to a king he has no interest in pledging his loyalty to in any case.

Not Informing His Uncle of His Plans: Edmure threw back the Lannister forces at the Battle of the Fords. Because of this, Robb is unable to encircle Tywin's host, as he had hoped to surround and capture them further within the Riverlands. I'm not so sure that Robb actually had that "plan" in Riverrun. I think he hammered out the details of the trap somewhere in the West, and didn't think Edmure would interpret differently. As to the trap itself: oh no, Tywin's cause would have been lost for sure. If he delayed for even a few hours, he'd be late to the rescue of King's Landing - Lannister Plot ArmorTM struck again. And the thing is, if he crossed the Trident, he'd be caught between Robb, Edmure and Roose - you can forget about the Red Wedding then: Roose and Walder are dipshits for sure, but they're above all opportunistic dipshits. With Tywin caught between 3 different forces, at least one of which - Robb - is way, way better at guerilla hill-war that Tywin (who never seems to win anything unless he outnumbers his enemy at least 2:1), that's it for the Lannister army. Meanwhile, Stannis takes KL, but keeps pissing off everyone with his charming personality, so his reinforcements are dubious. But Stannis is a man of honor and of his word and he would've given the Starks Sansa. Dorne would be pleased that Tywin and the Mountain dies and extends an alliance with The North. The Tyrells just fuck off in Highgarden. The Ironborn are dealt with and would be at death's door until Euron returns. Stannis has Varys and Littlefinger executed and Lysa just sulks with Sweetrobin in The Eyrie. The Starks regain The North and the Starks reunite and most importantly Robb is the one who goes to the Wall and helps prepare the North for The Others.

Beheading Rickard Karstark: Karstark, feeling the need for vengeance due to his son's deaths, slaughters prisoners of war Tion Frey and Willem Lannister. Due to this act, Robb sentences Karstark to death and beheads him personally. This leads to the Karstark' abandoning ship and heading home. Rickard and the Karstarks had been some of, if not, his most loyal vassals. When Ned was imprisoned and Robb called his banners Rickard answered bringing as many men as he could unlike many other Northern Lords who held back men in reserve for their own interests. Or the Umbers who threatened to go home unless he got his way and had to be threatened to stay and help Robb free his father. When Winterfell was captured and Bran and Rickon's lives endangered the Karstarks were one of the few Northern Houses to send men despite the large distance to Winterfell. Despite all this, despite the fact that two of Rickards sons were killed as they were protecting Robb from Jaime Lannister, or his heir was captured being sent into a battle that Robb knew they were going to lose Robb still gave Rickard Karstark the harshest punishment he could instead of being lenient like his own advisers suggested and keeping him prisoner or sending him to the Wall. Now this move was especially stupid as the remnants of the 2,000 Karstark foot was with Roose. Robb was actually worried about them turning on Bolton, which was a real possibility, but instead they worked with Roose to take down Robb at the Red Wedding. Would Roose have had the confidence to act without those Karstark numbers? Being lenient with Rickard might have still lost those Karstark men but they would never have helped in the Red Wedding. Karstark sacrificed a lot and while killing those two Lannisters was bad, no one would have cared if it had been on the battlefield. Their age has little to do with it, both sides would have had casualties of similar ages in the battles.

Marrying Jeyne Westerling: Robb was betrothed to a daughter of Walder Frey; however, this act broke that vow, thus leading to the Frey's feeling betrayed and withdrawing home. This act of defiance towards the Frey's is later paid in kind via the Red Wedding.

With that out of the way, here is how Robb could've won The North's Independence.

If we’re looking at deposing Joffrey and extinguishing the Royal Branch of House Baratheon-Lannister, then no. Too many riches, lords, and men support them for the Stark/Tully coalition to mount an offensive. They’d be enveloped, surrounded and destroyed.

If we’re looking at the independence of the North, then its possible, but Robb is going to have to do some unpleasant/unhonorable things, because here’s the ultimate goal:

Getting behind Moat Calin and fortifying for the Winter.

If Robb can do that, then he’s pretty much untouchable.

So, how do we get there?

First things first, don’t tie the knot with Talisa/Westerling and marry Roslin Frey like he agreed to. That stupid marriage should never have happened in the first place.

Eddard Stark survived the stain of a “bastard.” Robb can too, which may not even be a problem since Westerling never became pregnant (probably due to her mother). Robb marrying for love was so out of character that we’re just setting aside the Talisa incident.

Next, its time to get the Northern Alliance some breathing room for their strategic retreat.

Robb needs to recognize that Edmere is an idiot and needs his uncle Blackfish to watch over his shoulder the whole time. If he does so, then Robb’s cannon plan in season 3 works. The Mountain and his Ravagers are drawn out of Harrenhal, surrounded and annihilated.

That not only deals a blow to Lannister prestige, but also wins them brownie points with the Brotherhood Without Banners. Enough so that maybe they let Robb know that they have his sister.

That with a nice sack of cash will firmly place the BWB on the Stark side, so long as Robb can keep his Northmen in line. They are going to be the Stark’s eyes and ears as well as turn the Riverlands into the Spanish Ulcer for the Lannisters.

Which brings us to Karstark.

At the beginning of season three, the Kingslayer is gone, so Karstark goes berserk as a result. Instead of beheading the man, Robb should parlay with him instead. Use his anger to help with the retreat, while at the same time, put him in overwhelming situations where a stray arrow or well-timed blade may get through his guard.

In other words, suicide by Lannister.

Karstark won’t notice, he’s too bloodmad, his focus will solely be on killing Lannisters. The problem will eventually resolve itself. And if not, mayhaps the BwB can help, for another sack of cash of course.

So now Robb has his space.

The BwB and Karstark are disrupting the Lannister/Tyrell logistics, inflicting lop-siding losses on demoralized and green Lannister/Tyrell levies (most of Lord Tywin’s professional force was either wiped out at the Whispering Woods or at Blackwater and the Tryrell “impressive” force of 80,000 are farmhands who’ve never seen a blade in their life).

Now comes the hard part, withdrawing the Riverlords and what’s left of their men behind the Moat.

After two years of war, the Riverlords have maybe 15–20 thousand men left. Add on to Robb’s own 15,000 Northmen, and Robb can command an impressive 30,000 battle hardened soldiers.

And every one of those men are needed in the North:

To remove the Ironborn.

To fortify the Moat, the White Knife, and the Stoney Shore.

To deal with the Wildlings, Stannis, and ultimately, the White Walkers.

But the Riverlords are stubborn. They don’t want to abandon their homes to the Lannisters. Who would? Moreover, to abandon their homes to fight a supposedly Northern problem? That’s adding insult to injury.

Hence why marrying Roslin is so important. It means that Robb can’t just pack up and go home. He is now permanently tied to the survival of the Riverlands.

The marriage carries a promise: that Robb will return. Just as Doug MacArthur returned to the Philippines.

Combine that with parting with 5000 men to garrison the strategic and symbolic castles throughout the Riverlands (Riverrun, Oldstones, The Crossroads, the Twins, and Seagard), Robb and the Tullys command the displayed area:

With all three forks of the Trident under the Stark Banner, the Starks can send constant supplies, provisions, and ferry BwB raiding parties. The long-ships they need to navigate the forks can easily be supplied by the ironwood of House Forrestor and designed by captured Ironborn in exchange for clemency.

In canon, The Blackfish claimed that Riverrun could hold out for two years, and that was with an unprepared Riverrun. With a proper strategic retreat, a proper supply route along the three forks, that time frame for Riverrun and all other hard nuts in this system could be raised to near indefinite, or at least until Winter hits.

Until Gunpowder came around, it was almost nearly impossible to take castles. The loss of life in an assault was just too much for farmhand levies. The only way to break a castle is through a siege, and well supplied Trident prevents such castles from starving out.

So, by leaving behind say 5000 men, using the Lannister plunder Robb acquired from his expedition west for payment and loyalty, maximizing the continued harassment and disruption by the BwB, and taking advantage of impetuous, but slow thinking lords looking for glory and blood, the Riverlands could hold out until at least Winter, at which points all sides would have to retire.

Its a stalling game, basically.

Now, with that secured, Robb will then take the remaining 10–15 thousand Rivermen with him North to deal with the Ironborn. Which is a piece of cake, since most already left for the Kingsmoot, and while being incredibly skilled sailors and marines, fighting on the Green Land makes them worthless.

Winterfell is secured (unfortunately still razed), the North is liberated, and the Southern choke points are fortified with the Rivermen:

The warmer climate is better suited for them.

It keeps them close to the Riverlands just in case the Lannisters/Tyrells attempt to make an incursion.

That will then allow Robb to use his reinforced 20,000 battle-harden Northern Banner Army to force Mance Rayder into submission.

Unlike Jon Snow, Robb will clearly explain to everyone that a potentially treacherous Wilding is infinitely superior to a definite enemy wight among the White Walker force.

As for the Wildlings, Robb uses Jon Snow and Mance Rayder to keep them in line as they in turn man the Wall and reap up the final harvest before Winter sets in.

As for Stannis, without a proper logistics network (The Nights Watch and the North will not help him), his mercenary army either dies or defects to Robb.

Stannis is imprisoned, Melisandre either stays to help Robb and Jon or runs away.

While the North digs in for the fight at the Wall, the events of the South happen as they do in cannon:

Joffrey is murdered.

Tyrion is blamed and flees.

Sansa disappears to the Vale.

Tywin is killed by his own son.

Cersei single handily destroys the Lannister/Tyrell Alliance.

The Faith Militant rises and imprisons everybody.

Euron wins the Salt Throne and begins ravaging the Reach.

FAegon invades and secures the Stormlands.

With the South in such chaos, the incursions into the Trident diminish, as Lannister, Tryrell, Dorne, Ironborn, and FAegon are too busy fighting each other.

The line of supply along the Trident is strengthened by the spoils of war that came with Stannis, and Stannis’ mercenaries are sent South to warmer climates and better opportunities for plunder.

Sansa, who by now has become a political player in her own right, tricks Sweet Robin into declaring for Robb, and rallies the Knights of the Vale to the Stark Banner.

Who knows, maybe even taking out Littlefinger in the process.

So now Robb’s dominion looks like this:

His army around Moat Calin and South now compose of:The ~5000 Garrison of Rivermen. The 10–15,000 Rivermen ready to march. The ~1000 Partisans of the Brotherhood. The fresh 40,000 Knights of the Vale. The 6000 mercenaries that abandoned Stannis.

Meanwhile up North, Robb with his 20,000, the 50,000 Wildlings, and remnants of the Night’s Watch are ready to fight a grueling war of attrition against the Walkers at the Wall.

And if Tycho Nestoris is aware of the White Walker threat, then Robb’s got Bravoos’ armory and the Iron Bank on his side as well.

Robb doesn’t need to beat the South into submission. Not anymore. Arya is safe in Winterfell. Rickon is safe at Skagos. Bran is missing, but NOT in the South, and Sansa now commands the Vale with Yohn Royce.

All he has to do is hold out, using Darry, Riverrun, and the Oldstones as choke points.

The Royal Navy was destroyed at Blackwater. The Iron Fleet and Redwyne Navy annihilated each other when Euron went South, so the choke points can’t be bypassed.

Robb has won defacto independence.

Assuming they survive the Long Night and the rest of Winter, then Robb can coalesce his forces and reclaim the God’s Eye Basin, thus maintaining his pledge and duty to the Riverlords and increasing his prestige.

And the South will still be too divided to mount a proper counter offensive.

A treaty is eventually signed with whoever is left and Robb wins his independence, and with the wealth of a restored Riverlands, and untouched Vale and revitalized North, becomes the most powerful man in Westeros.

And if Robb listens to Roose Bolton more, explains himself to him, and rewards him for his victories, it may be enough to dissuade him from betraying him. After all, Roose is a pragmatic man, and will always back the winning side.

Robb was no longer on the winning side when he married Jeyne Westerling, executed Karstark, and lost Winterfell, the seat of his authority. If he plays his cards right, and doesn’t restrict himself with his honor, he could avoid the first two and quickly rectify the third, thus snagging victory from defeat.

The South was unified with the marriage of Margarey/Joffrey and the iron hand of Lord Tywin. Kill the union and the Hand, and you kill the alliance. And then, the war looks a whole lot less hopeless for the Starks.

And since Robb is now the most powerful man in Westeros AND has married Roslin Frey, the Late Walder Frey may be hesitant with his blade.

Justice has been restored. The North, the Vale and the Riverlands stand united. The Red Wedding never happens. The Starks are reunited and they fight off the Long Night and bring peace to the realm.

THE KING IN THE NORTH!