#black walder frey

[dyannawynnedayne]

Ryman Frey (stevrons son with Corenna), his wife*, Edwyn Frey, "Black" Walder Frey, and Petyr Frey

Ryman's Wife = she wasnt given a name, so I named her. She is Anya Smallwood, and is the sister of Theomar Smallwood. She Does Not Like her husband (or her children tbh) and lives in a nearby motherhouse. She's waiting for Ryman to die so she can become a septa lmao. I just imagine she doesnt have a ton of ambition, got married to Ryman of all people way too young, and watched Ryman 'ruin' all their children in her opinion. She ptobably left when Petyr fostered somewhere.

[stannis-the-freaking-mannis]

house pie

[cynicalclassicist]

It's going to be Big Walder by the end. Maybe Lothar is able to take control of the Twins after a lot of his relatives fall in vengeance for the Red Wedding or to each other. But it might be a kind of quick cycle through Lords of the Crossing.

that-one-homosexual reblogged your post “As a reminder: Succession in Westeros…” and added:

Just like to add that the Stony Dornishmen prefer male primogeniture (following Andal tradition rather than Rhonyish). http://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Dornishmen

Not all Stony Dornishmen. (In fact, not most of them.)

4. Do all Houses of Dorne follow the first born heir law?

The vast majority, yes. May be a few stony Dornishmen in the mountains who go their own way, those least touched by the Rhoynar.

–GRRM, “Concerning Dorne” (bolding mine)

lizzierh replied to your post “As a reminder: Succession in Westeros…”

For curiosity’s sake, the Freys appear to be pure Salic.

I don’t think we’ve seen any real evidence of that, other than Big and Little Walder’s conversation after they heard news of Stevron’s death, and they simply may have been overlooking the girls in their obsessive succession-counting. And considering the conversation referred to “Aegon and all his sons”, um… I don’t count it for much. Also, Salic inheritance is against Westeros law, as both Gorold Goodbrother’s maester and Jon Snow would tell you. So if the Freys do exclude women, they’re doing it illegally if so.

The proof will be in what happens after Edwyn Frey, the current heir to the Twins, is killed by his younger brother Black Walder. (He’s totally going to, if Lady Stoneheart doesn’t get to him first.) Edwyn’s heir is his only daughter, 9-year-old Walda. Will Walda be heir? Or will Black Walder kill her too? Or will he simply take the inheritance from her because she’s a little girl and might has the right? (Especially if he claims she’s his bastard, as she might be.) And will Old Walder give a fuck if he does, or will he just sit there and heh about it? If he’s alive at the time (which I expect he will be) of course. Mind you it probably doesn’t matter that much since I doubt Black Walder’s going to survive the end of the series anyway; hell, lord knows which if any members of House Frey will be standing in the end.

[adarkandmagicalforest]

hidden being the operative word, incase any of you ask 'what about robert?' 'what about theon?'

[vitaminkenjoyer]

tbh i think brienne is telling the truth about the location of hollow hill being a day's ride away from pennytree.

both brienne and arya are blindfolded when taken to the cave, and when arya goes with the brotherhood to high heart (twice) she is never blindfolded which wouldn't make much sense if indeed hollow hill was underneath high heart (thought i don't doubt that there are weirwood cave systems that extend there as well). pennytree has the obvious landmark of the huge oak tree with a thousand pennies nailed into it, so it'd make sense for the brotherhood to blindfold people when in the area.

it makes the most sense geographically, with raventree hall to the north and it's gigantic dead weirwood tree and pennytree not far off to the south located in between the two hills. the entrance to the cave is likely well hidden and obscured, located on the side of one of the teats.

and logistically i don't think brienne and jaime could afford to linger for weeks traveling in the riverlands given the fact that they are likely to be encountered by not only members of the brotherhood and their spies, but also jaime's own men who were sent to search along the red fork for the blackfish (addam marbrand was given command north of the river, ser dermot of the rainwood to the south. i have to assume since they aren't mentioned in jaime's dance chapter that they are still searching at the time.), or they may run into any members of the garrision that jaime released from riverrun.

brienne has been given enough trust by the brotherhood to be given back her sword and presumably she is now privy to the exact whereabouts of the hideout, or close enough. which makes me think hyle and pod will not only be held as leverage as part of whatever deal jaime n brienne will make with the brotherhood, but also as a reminder that should jaime or brienne give up the location of this hideout or try to invade with jaime's forces, they will kill hyle and podrick at the first sign of betrayal.

now the question mark just becomes what are they up to in the weeks following their escape/possible collaboration with the brotherhood. they can't stay hidden for too long i would think, considering the fact that jaime's men would be all over the place looking for him, and the freys have their own men searching for outlaws and black walder has gone so far as to torture smallfolk into giving up information regarding their whereabouts. at darry is also lyle crakehall who has pledged to hunt down the hound/other outlaws.

[agentrouka-blog]

do you think the asoiaf series have an issue with romanticizing incest ? sometimes i feel like even a pulpy series like flowers in the attic better managed to communicate the horror of incest by making it a sort of family curse

It's not romanticizing incest any more than it is romanticizing violent abuse of power. GRRM's storytelling style is geared around the reader having to make their own judgments of whether or not a character's actions and choices are "good" or "bad" or harmful or life-affirming, or destructive or effective.

And he is definitely not writing "horror" in the sense of chilling you to the bone emotionally. (Which is valid, too.) He's writing a bit more intellectually than that. He's examining the subject. From multiple angles.

Why is incest harmful? What is harmful about it? Given a general lack of natural inclination toward it, what underlying forces are bringing it forth in the story? Are they similar to the underlying forces that cause other forms of harm?

When characters romanticize incest in the story, or when they normalize it (fictional historians or other characters about the Targs, mainly) this too is the author asking you to use your brain and question that.

If you read Fire and Blood and expect that the author is presenting you with Protagonists to Identify With instead of A Problem To Analyze, you're reading it wrong. It's fictional non-fiction. Literally a fake history book.

As for the actual novel series, you're still not seeing him romanticizing incest through characters like codependent Lannister-supremacy murder twins Jaime and Cersei, or Viserys's abuse of Dany, or Craster, or the rumors of Black Walder Frey. They all involve misogyny and objectification, supremacist disdain of "lesser" people, and/or outright generational cycles of sexual and emotional abuse.

Jonsa as a concept, too, is an examination of the underlying forces. In the so-called "original outline" (really one of many), GRRM directly plays with the concept of an incest romantic attraction between Jon and a Stark half-sister (named Arya in that case) that "torments" them, and is likely to be at least in part a commentary on the distortion of family relationships through the rigid status differences enforced by their oppressive feudal, patriarchal society. As in, the incest is not fetishized or romanticized, it is a problem that has to be miraculously overcome by the revelation of Jon's actual degree of relation, which paves over the "perversion" that existed because there was no natural family bond.

So... no, absolutely not. There is no romanticizing. The book series absolutely requires critical thinking, there is meant to be some emotional distance induced by the excesses it depicts, giving you room to question and analyze. If you swallow it all as a form of "different in-universe morality" then you're missing the point.

[atopvisenyashill]

i’m curious what they’ll call it tho like it’s not gonna be called the second red wedding in canon. will they go with another color? the black wedding? the grey wedding? the…(tully) blue wedding? will it take its name from lady stoneheart? stoneheart’s massacre? the brotherhood’s massacre? stoneheart’s wedding? the last wedding of walder frey? no that’s too long.

[jedimaesteryoda]

The Green Fork ran swift and deep here, but the Freys had spanned it many centuries past and grown rich off the coin men paid them to cross . . . when they were done they'd thrown up stout timber keeps on either bank, so no one might cross without their leave. -AGOT, Catelyn IX

The Freys have so far proven to be one of the most faithless houses in the series. They use their position as Lords of the Crossing to secure themselves the best offer, always demanding a toll.

It brings to mind the tale of "The Three Billy Goats Gruff," a troll under the bridge, always greedy, was willing to forgo one goat for the next if the next one was bigger, meaning he offered a larger meal. Lord Walder himself is a grumpy and greedy figure like the troll, always hungry for the best deal for himself. With things coming in threes, the Freys join their cause to royal candidates and are quick to throw them aside and turn their cloaks if the next candidate is stronger and brings potentially more rewards.

The Freys first allied with Robb Stark, King in the North. He offered them a marriage and fostering two Freys. They then cast him aside after his broken betrothal, and Lord Walder had been wanting to switch sides after the Battle of the Blackwater. They are now allied with the Lannisters the wealthiest house, with the alliance with House Tyrell, the two strongest kingdoms, making them the strongest players on the field. They made the Freys de facto lords of the riverlands and offered marriages like the Boltons making Walder's grandaughters' the Ladies of the North and Darry and prizes like Riverrun. However, we know like with Robb Stark, the Lannisters' success won't last due to Cersei's mismanagement, the desire for vengeance over their past actions and another player coming onto the field from across the Narrow Sea.

"And what if I do not choose to pay this toll?" "Then you had best retreat back to Moat Cailin, deploy to meet Lord Tywin in battle … or grow wings. I see no other choices."

The fairy tale ends when the third goat arrives, the biggest and strongest of the three. The hungry troll sees him as his best meal, but he misses that his size took away the troll's leverage in threatening him as the goat knew it was capable of challenging the troll and rams him into the river to drown. The last candidate that will make them turn their cloaks and offer an alliance to will of course be Daenerys, the strongest of the three candidates.

Knowing she will need to face King Stannis, they'll demand large rewards from her. Like possibly amongst other things, to be made liege lords of the riverlands or even Riverrun and Winterfell given Walda was supposed to be Lady of the North. I also wouldn't put it past Black Walder to offer Daenerys marriage. Of course, in doing so, they overplay their hand.

They missed as each royal house they made their offer to got stronger that meant they could demand more rewards it also meant their leverage was weaker. They had the most leverage with Robb who absolutely needed them to get from the North to Riverrun and vice versa. Their leverage lessened with the Lannisters as they knew the Freys had nowhere else to go if they pulled the Red Wedding, and did not need the Crossing as much, being able to send men from King's Landing to the North or riverlands via the kingsroad. With Daenerys, she will have learned of their history of treachery, having proven themselves to be untrustworthy allies who had made themselves pariahs and lost much of their military strength in the North and reprisals over the Red Wedding. They will demand much while offering her little, or overcharging for their services. Along with having a large army, she will have dragons, something none of the other candidates ever possessed, that will allow her to fly over the Twins without paying their toll.

Looking at the opportunity costs, she may also find that they made themselves so universally hated, that it would do more for her cause to crush them.

Daenerys's reply to their offers of alliance will likely be met with "Dracarys." The Twins will likely be burned in dragonflame, and the ones who survive the flames will jump into the river to drown.

The Freys always demanded a toll, but failed to see that if they didn't live up to their side of the bargain of providing assistance, there would be a price to pay for their faithlessness and treachery.

[daenystheedreamer]

game of thrones filler episode concepts

- ser pouce gets lost in the red keep and tommen and margaery have to find him! lots of fun scooby-doo type door gags. maybe tommen stumbles upon the bodies maegor built the red keep on. they’re somehow still bleeding, as if they’re the only reason the castle hasnt been whitewashed from rain. cersei accidentally gets roped in when ser pounce knocks over her wine glass!

- sansa is haunted by the ghosts of her parents while at the eyrie... to help them move on, she has to let cat possess her so lysa and cat can mend their relationship :) this magic is never mentioned ever again, even though it could be really really helpful :) the afterlife stuff is also never mentioned again

- it’s hard work being the cleaning staff for harrenhal! roose bolton wants to be leeched, there’s man-eating rats to keep track of and there’s a weird little girl running around making trouble.... back door pilot for a downton abbey but it’s harrenhal

- guest star satin episode! it can be like one of those one-off hot women on supernatural that dean will date for an episode and she never shows up again

- now hear me out. ‘doctor-lite’ episode with maybe just a cameo from walder frey or roose, means it can be produced cheaply. it’s the day before the red wedding and black walder and lame lothar have got a HELL of a party to plan! 

- hotd filler episode! corlys brings home strange weeds from the free cities.... little arrax accidentally sets it on fire and the smoke is making house targaryen-velaryon-hightower a little kooky.... jace and aegon actually bond (this is never referenced again) and even the dragons are affected - vhagar gets the munchies! rhaenys is the only person not acting funny. revealed in a post-credits that she had QUITE the roaring twenties back in her hippy days 🤭 also she takes medieval medicinal CBD but thats unrelated

[greenaswildfire]

I was thinking... (spoilers, spoilers everywhere)

the writing decision of focusing so much on the fact that Aegon's parts were burnt root and stem is probably related to the future alliance with the Baratheons, right?

If they don't change it (lmao), almost at the end of the Dance Alicent comes up with a marriage pact, this time with Aegon instead of Aemond, and Boros's daughter. But with Aegon's inability to produce heirs, how will that work now? Will this alliance still hold?

Oh well, they'll probably use it as an excuse to justify Boros betraying the Greens. Because nope, if TB is betrayed, the Greens must also have at least one betrayal to make up for the huge difference of loyalties :)

In terms of important Houses I can't remember any house betraying the Greens (Great Houses, not others like House Peake or Fossoway). I consider quite curious how, in terms of Black side, House Arryn and House Stark took their sweet time to help them. These two Houses pulled a Late Lord Frey, way before Walder frey was even born lmao

And it's not even secret that Rhaenyra's mother was an Arryn, everybody knew House Arryn would side with the Blacks anyway, the realm knew House Arryn would be a rebel House and still, Jeyne Arryn is shown as very cautious, letting Rhaenyra fend for herself instead of helping her. (Can't blame her though, she was probably the only actually smart woman in this show who wasn't butchered by plot in order to prop Rhaenyra up)

And I won't even mention the Starks. With the reddit leaks I'm very, VEEEERY curious to see the reason behind this late help. Everything depends on whose version will prevail, Condal's or Hess's.

If we take these two houses into account, we have: Strong, Stark, Velaryon, Arryn (and maybe Blackwoods?) betraying the Blacks for their own purposes, not to mention Rosby who made very clear Rhaenyra's hypocrisy, but I doubt they mention anything about this House, right? :D

And when it comes to the Greens... only the Tullys and the Brackens (but as far as we know, their leader was burned by Daemon for refusing to bend the knee, so maaaaaybe they won't even remember them in S3?).

5 (maybe 6) vs 1 (maybe 2), woah, quite a difference in loyalties, even more considering how the Green side has always been the one with less support and dragons.

The thing is: iirc, the allies that betrayed the Greens weren't motivated by distrust in them, or the crown's misdeeds against them (like what happened with Arryn, Stark and Velaryons in TB). It was due to circunstances and manipulation tactics, otherwise, they would have stayed loyal to the greens.

Team Black NATURALLY doesn't inspire loyalty.

So they thought "how can we balance things and make the Blacks look like they inspire more loyalty than the greens???? Oh! How about find a way to shake the Green alliance with Boros Baratheon? Between a Green eunuch with a crown and Rhaenyra's two boys, Boros has more chances of power with her than with Aegon.

Condal, Hess, you can't fool us. We can predict all your moves.

Such a shame though, because by the looks of things it won't even be someone from TG who is going to kill her (if that ever happens in this fanfic of theirs), is most likely someone from TB itself because they simply have no enemies anymore.

Which is far worse PR move for a team who loves to boast about "how Aegon was poisoned by his own allies" :) Hackondal and Mess are stuck with this ending, unlessss they bring back Sunfyre and follow the book. But Rhaenyra, killed by a TG? Naah, it wouldn't be tragic girlboss enough for her. I place my bets on TB.

[rheanyraaaa]

Water Lilly Part 21

Robb Stark x Frey Reader (F)

Enemies To Lovers

summary: after a conversation with your grandfather your grandfather goes off to talk to Robb, and Robb tries to build trust and a alliance with him before he departs

——————————————————————————-

The halls of Winterfell were quieter at night, the usual noise of the day giving way to the soft crackling of torches and the distant howling of the wind outside. Robb Stark sat in his solar, pouring over letters and war reports by candlelight, the weight of the North pressing heavy upon his shoulders. But despite the responsibilities of kingship, his mind drifted elsewhere to you, to your children, to the family you had both built and were still learning to mend.

A firm knock at the door pulled him from his thoughts. Robb straightened, his instincts still those of a man who had spent much of his life on battlefields.

“Enter,” he called.

The door swung open to reveal Lord Ryon Vaith, your grandfather. His dark eyes, so much like yours, held a quiet intensity, his expression unreadable as he stepped inside. Despite the Dornish warmth that clung to his presence, the northern chill had settled in his heavy cloak, the fabric dusted with frost.

Robb stood, offering a respectful nod. “Lord Vaith.”

Ryon’s gaze flickered across the room, as if assessing it, before settling back on Robb. “I have already greeted my granddaughter, but I wished to see my great-grandsons before speaking with you.”

Robb’s expression softened at the mention of Ned and Rickard. He gestured toward the far side of the room, where a small wooden bed had been placed for nights when the little toddler lord stirred in his sleep. Rickard lay inside, tiny and warm beneath thick furs, his black curls wild against the soft fabric. Nearby, Ned was curled up in a chair much too large for him, his little body tucked under a thick wolfskin blanket, his auburn head barely visible.

Ryon stepped closer, peering down at Rickard. The baby stirred slightly in his sleep, as if sensing the new presence, his small hand flexing before settling once more. The older man watched him for a long moment before nodding approvingly.

“They are strong boys,” Ryon murmured, his voice quieter now. “Good Vaith blood in them.”

Robb chuckled lightly. “I’d argue more Stark than Vaith, my lord.”

Ryon let out a rare, quiet hum of amusement. “Perhaps.” Then he turned, fixing Robb with a steady look. “I am here on behalf of one whom I love.”

Robb understood immediately. This visit was for you.

He nodded, motioning for Ryon to sit. The older man lowered himself into the chair across from Robb, his movements precise, controlled. For a moment, silence stretched between them, heavy with the weight of things unsaid.

Finally, Ryon spoke. “You remind me of him.”

Robb frowned slightly. “Of who?”

“The man my daughter should have married.”

That gave Robb pause. He leaned forward slightly, forearms resting against the table. “Lady Seraphina?”

Ryon inclined his head. “Seraphina was my jewel. My daughter, my pride.” His voice was not unkind, but there was something distant about it, as though speaking of her after all these years was a wound that never quite closed.

“She was born in Myr, raised among merchants and nobles alike. When we settled in Dorne, she brought the knowledge of trade and the beauty of Essos with her. She was sharp-minded, well-spoken, and her presence alone could turn the heads of lords and princes.” A hint of a sad smile ghosted across his lips before fading. “It was only a matter of time before the wrong man noticed her.”

Robb already knew where this was leading, but he let Lord Vaith speak, feeling the weight of the story settle around them like a cold wind.

“Walder Frey,” Ryon said the name with barely concealed distaste, “heard of her. Of her beauty, her cleverness, her ties to the Free Cities. And like a leech, he latched onto the opportunity. He wanted her, and he was not a man easily refused. Through lies and manipulation, he convinced me that a marriage alliance with the Twins would be beneficial, that my daughter would be safe, that she would be a lady of power and wealth.” His jaw tightened. “I was a fool.”

Robb listened intently, his fingers unconsciously curling into his palm. He had always known Walder Frey was a wretched man, but hearing the details of how he had ensnared your mother only deepened his disgust.

“She didn’t want to go,” Ryon admitted, his voice quieter now. “She begged me not to send her. But I believed I was doing the right thing. I believed it would secure her future.” His gaze darkened. “And then, too soon, she was gone from my reach. The Twins swallowed her whole, and the next I heard, she was dead.” A tense silence settled between them.

Ryon exhaled slowly, his fingers curling slightly against the arm of his chair. “And you ask why I scrutinise you, Stark? Because I failed my daughter. And when I learned that you had failed my granddaughter—” He shook his head. “It was all too familiar.”

Robb didn’t flinch, though the words cut deep. He had failed you once. He would never deny it.

“I understand,” Robb said, his voice steady.

Ryon studied him for a long moment before finally nodding. “But I have watched you. And I see now that you have grown. You have made amends in ways that many men never would.” His gaze sharpened slightly. “Do you love her, Stark?”

Robb met his eyes without hesitation. “I do.”

“And do you appreciate her?”

A small, almost rueful smile tugged at Robb’s lips. “More than I can say.”

Ryon held his gaze for a moment longer, as if searching for any hint of falsehood. Whatever he found must have satisfied him, because he leaned back slightly, exhaling through his nose.

“Good,” he murmured. “Because she is more than you deserve.”

Robb let out a quiet chuckle, inclining his head. “I don’t disagree.”

A rare glimmer of amusement crossed Ryon’s face before he stood. Robb rose with him, watching as the older man took one last glance toward Ned and Rickard.

“She will always be a daughter of Dorne,” Ryon said. “But she is your queen now. See to it that she is cherished as she should be.”

Robb nodded, his voice certain. “I will.”

Ryon gave one last, approving nod before turning toward the door. As he left, the heavy weight of the past lingered in the room, but so did something else. Understanding, but as Lord Ryon Vaith turned toward the door, Robb found himself speaking before he could stop himself.

“You said I remind you of the man your daughter should have married.” His voice was calm, measured, but there was a flicker of curiosity beneath it. “Who was he?”

Ryon paused, his back straight, before he turned to face Robb again. His expression was unreadable, but there was something in his gaze a weight, a memory long buried.

“A man named Ser Lyon Qorgyle,” Ryon said after a moment. “A Dornish knight of Sandstone. He was noble, in both blood and spirit. A man of unwavering honor and quiet strength. He and Seraphina were promised to one another since they were young.”

Robb frowned slightly, the name unfamiliar to him. He had heard of House Qorgyle, one of the principal houses of Dorne, but he knew little of this Ser Lyon.

“They were in love?” Robb asked.

Ryon’s expression softened, just slightly. “They were friends first. Childhood companions, much like your sister Sansa and her young knight, though there was no foolishness between them. Ser Lyon was patient, steady, and Seraphina adored him for it. She trusted him.” He exhaled, the weight of regret settling into his shoulders. “Had I allowed the betrothal to stand, she would have lived a happy life. A safe life.”

Robb remained silent, listening.

“But when Walder Frey came with his poisoned words and his promises of power, I allowed myself to be swayed. I thought I was securing my daughter’s future, not destroying it.” His fingers curled slightly at his side. “Ser Lyon was furious when I broke the betrothal. He rode to Sunspear, sought the Prince’s intervention but Dorne does not interfere in the dealings of the riverlords. And so, there was nothing to be done.”

Ryon’s dark gaze flickered back to Robb. “Lyon was the kind of man who would have burned the Twins to the ground to keep her from that fate. But he was an honorable knight, and when she was wed, he did not pursue her. He respected my decision, though I did not deserve his respect.” A pause. “He married another. Had children of his own. But I know he never forgot her.”

Robb exhaled slowly, the weight of the past settling between them. “And yet, despite what I did to your granddaughter, you still say I remind you of him?”

Ryon studied him for a long moment before nodding once. “Yes.”

Robb wasn’t sure how to take that, whether it was meant as an insult or a reluctant approval.

“He was a man who made mistakes,” Ryon admitted, “but he always sought to correct them. He never let his honor falter, even when others would have strayed.” His eyes flickered with something almost unreadable. “And he loved fiercely. When he loved, he did not let go.”

Something about the words struck Robb deeply. He thought of you, of all the ways he had hurt you, of the long road it had taken to mend what he had broken.

“I do love her,” Robb said quietly.

Ryon studied him for a long moment before finally giving a slight nod. “Then do not let go.”

And with that, he turned and left, leaving Robb alone with his thoughts.

——————————————————————————

tags!!

@maysileeewrites @nervouschaosgladiator @samieree @yeahnohoneybye @amanojaku-the-cat @nommingonfood @prettydeeryess

[aegor-bamfsteel]

Hello Bamfsteel. I have been following your blog for over a year now but I realize I haven't commented or reblogged much (I kinda avoid online interaction because I'm terrified of accidentally offending someone). But I cannot express how much I love your blog, and admire you for carrying on despite the hate you get from antis. I was already ambivalent about Daemon, but you got me rooting for him... and for Daena, Rohanne, and Aegor, the last of whom in particular is basically unanimously hated by the fandom (hell, one random tvtropes page even called him worse than Aerys the Mad King)!! So I'm grateful for your blog and hope you keep posting.

Anyway, as a fan of both the Blackfyres and Arthuriana, I'm currently planning to write an Arthurian retelling of Daemon I's life and was wondering about how he chose his sigil/heraldry. Twoiaf says that he simply reversed the Targaryen colors because that's what all bastards do. But I don't know if there are any other examples of this happening in canon.

On the contrary, I recall Jon saying to Arya in AGoT: "Girls get the arms but not the swords. Bastards get the swords but not the arms. I did not make the rules, little sister."

So now I wonder if the 'black dragon on a red field' was actually Daena's personal coat of arms, and Daemon simply chose it after Aegon's acknowledgement as a symbol of defiance and loyalty to his beloved mother. I love the notion that the chivalrous-to-the-last-breath Daemon Blackfyre didn't care all that much for his terrible and blatantly unchivalrous 'father' and instead everything he did, from winning the squires tourney to rebelling against Daeron, was his way of making his mother proud and atoning for all the humiliation she had to suffer due to his birth.

Sorry for the long ask. I am just excited to meet a fellow Blackfyre fan :)

Hello, thesupercat. Thank you for the long ask, and putting up with my slow responses over the past year. I have a little more free time/motivation to write recently, so I’m trying to answer more questions. I’m glad that my posts could bring your fandom experience some happiness. If you ever write the Arthuriana about Daemon I, don’t be afraid to send me a link.

TWOIAF and Dunk actually have different origins of the Black Dragon sigil; Dunk claims “the arms of House Targaryen had borne a three-headed dragon, red on black. Daemon the Pretender had reversed those colors on his own banners, as many bastards did.” (The Sworn Sword) but TWOIAF actually says “Reversing the colors of the traditional Targaryen arms to show a black dragon on a red field, the rebels declared for Princess Daena's bastard son Daemon Blackfyre, First of His Name, proclaiming him the eldest true son of King Aegon IV, and his half brother Darren the bastard.” (TWOIAF Darren II) What a lot of antis miss in their analysis of Daemon and Aegor is conflating their actions with that of what the Reds said their supporters did (if Daemon didn’t create the sigil, it could be evidence that the rebellion wasn’t premeditated, which I believe) I actually had an interesting debate about which version of the origin of the sigil was more logical with someone (I’d taken Dunk’s word to be true), but it’s actually more interesting if the rebels came up with it, because you’re right (no matter what the wiki has to say about it) the reversed sigil color scheme alone doesn’t actually indicate illegitimate origin: it requires that and a diagonal (usually red) slash, called in heraldry a “bend sinister” (which was used in real life illegitimate sigils, like the cadet branches of the House of Bourbon, Conti and Condé). There are multiple examples of illegitimate sons/their descendants using the reversed colors of their father’s house and the bend sinister: Walder Rivers and Walder of Woodmere (a silver castle on a blue field and a red bend sinister, for Frey), and the cadet branch houses Oldflowers (ten white hands on a green field and a red bend sinister, for Gardner), Vikary (quartered with a white lion on red crossed by a gold bend sinister, for Reyne), and Bolling (quartered with a gold stag on a black field and an orange bend sinister, for Durrandon). The other illegitimate children whose sigils are described are variations on a family sigil without the inverse colors (Aegor Rivers, Brynden Rivers) or something completely different (Benedict Justman, Blackshield). Far from being a simple sigil that marks being illegitimate Targaryen, the black-dragon-on-red-field is a symbol of anti-Targaryen defiance that rejects the “bend sinister” marker for a different lineage of dragon (a cat of a different coat, I guess), which makes a lot of sense if you consider the war was due to disgust at the current Targ regime. Daemon technically had the right to use the Targaryen sigil proper since he was legitimized (look at the Velaryon boys), but I’m certain Da3ron would’ve forbid him because that would be “putting him on princely level” never mind that he is a prince as Daena’s son and Yandel knows this; he might’ve actually used a different style of arms before the First Blackfyre that we don’t know of (same with Aegor, who got the black wings on his Pegasus sigil due to House Blackfyre; I headcanon him using a plain blue field during his youth, for the Riverlands), or even the sigil we know of with the bend sinister (which the rebels removed acclaiming Daemon their legitimate king waging war against an illegitimate usurper; also as a Targaryen bastard, Da3ron could’ve had the same sigil as Daemon which the rebels wouldn’t have wanted). But, you seem to be correct that whoever created the sigil put more thought into it than “reversed color scheme is what all illegitimate children do”.

There are two women described as having personal arms: Rhaenyra Targaryen and Barbrey Dustin, ruling ladies with important family connections. The Targaryen sigil is also often personalized to distinguish between brothers and cousins (Aerion, Prince Daeron, Valarr, Maekar all have variations on dragon position, color, borders, number), though usually not for the king or his heir except in civil war conflicts (both Rhaenyra and her brother Aegon II have variations on the Targaryen sigil. Which I guess makes sense why Daemon’s supporters wanted a separate Blackfyre sigil). Daena was also acclaimed queen by some, and according to a GRRM answer wanted to be queen, so it’s possible she had a variation on the Targaryen sigil as personal arms. It’s interesting that the most popular variation on using house sigils is when the person wants to honor their mother’s family: Harras Harlaw (Serrett peacock), Joffrey/Tommen/Myrcella (Lannister lion, which Jon thinks is overly proud), Cleos Frey (Lannister lion), Benfrey Frey (Rosby chevronnels), both Big and Little Walder (who quarter the Frey castles with sigils of their mother’s and grandmother’s families), and Harry Hardyng (quartering the diamonds of Hardyng with 2 Falcons for his Arryn grandmother and 1 broken wheel for his Waynwood mother) all incorporate their mother’s/grandmother’s family sigils to show their high lineage. Even Rhaenyra Targaryen quartered her two red dragons with the Arryn falcon for her mother and the silver seahorse for her first husband. It’s entirely possible Daena, famous for wearing black during her youth and twice uncrowned, incorporated a black dragon into her personal arms (though I like to think she also incorporated the Velaryon seahorse for her mother’s family, to better differentiate herself from the “usurper branch” of Viserys II), and Daemon accepted the nickname “the Black Dragon” partly to honor her (the connection between them wearing black was one of my earliest hc posts). That Daemon’s descent from Daena is emphasized in the same sentence as his supporters creating the black-dragon-on-red-field banner could be seen as connecting the reversal of “traditional Targ arms” to her, as being “Targaryen on both sides” was used at least in Rhaenyra’s case as a mark of better legitimacy. Tl;dr if you want to say that Daemon’s battle sigil is a black dragon to honor Daena, there’s enough symbolic connections considering other examples of personal/illegitimate arms to make that argument, especially for a fanfic.

I hope you have a good rest of your day. My askbox is always open if you have more questions, though response time may be slow.

[windriverdelta]

Minimal theory on Red Wedding 2.0

Inspired by this ask and answer by @nobodysuspectsthebutterfly which raised some legitimate concerns about the common fan theories - namely, that there is no explicit indication that the wedding by Daven Lannister will happen soon, nor that it will be in Riverrun.

True, there is no explicit statement. But let's look at how these events in Jaime's AFFC chapters look from the Frey perspective:

The two of them were huddled over a map, arguing heatedly, but they broke off when Jaime entered. "Lord Commander," Rivers said with cold courtesy, but Edwyn blurted out, "My father's blood is on your hands, ser."

"If you will pardon me for intruding on your grief," [Jaime Lannister] said, in a dry tone, "we have other matters to consider. When you return to the Twins, please inform Lord Walder that King Tommen requires all the captives you took at the Red Wedding."

Ser Walder frowned. "These prisoners are valuable, ser."

"His Grace would not ask for them if they were worthless." Frey and Rivers exchanged a look. Edwyn said, "My lord grandfather will expect recompense for these prisoners." And he'll have it, as soon as I grow a new hand, thought Jaime. "We all have expectations," he said mildly.

When Jaime had taken his leave of Lady Amerei, she had been weeping softly at the dissolution of her marriage whilst letting Lyle Crakehall console her. Her tears had not troubled him half so much as the hard looks on the faces of her kin as they stood about the yard. "I hope you do not intend to take vows as well, coz," he said to Daven. "The Freys are prickly where marriage contracts are concerned. I would hate to disappoint them again."

Ser Daven snorted. "I'll wed and bed my stoat, never fear. I know what happened to Robb Stark. From what Edwyn tells me, though, I'd best pick one who hasn't flowered yet, or I'm like to find that Black Walder has been there first. I'll wager he's had Gatehouse Ami, and more than thrice. Maybe that explains Lancel's godliness, and his father's mood."

To recap, the Freys lost the marriage to Lancel. Jaime has demanded the hostages the Freys took at the Red Wedding & did not promise compensation and treated the Freys pretty shabbily besides (Jaime's contempt for them is apparent throughout his POV chapters). And now Late Walder's heir, Ser Ryman, was killed seemingly because of Jaime. I think Late Walder is getting rather pissed and perhaps a bit worried. So I expect him to demand Daven's marriage, soonest. And the Lannisters, weakened by Cersei's arrest and Jaime's disappearance, will have to acquiesce.

But here's the thing: While I expect Walder to demand a wedding at the Twins, Daven has no obligation to have it there - as he says, he knows what happened to Robb Stark. I expect that Genna Lannister proposes to have the wedding in Riverrun. Possibly also to negotiate a bethrotal between Roslin's child from Edmure and her grandson Tywin Frey, as she alluded to. She is a Lannister already married to a Frey, so she has pull on both sides. Daven and Late Walder will agree, and the spy Tom O'Sevens will sing ... and the Brotherhood without Banners will know where to strike.

What I like about this is that it solves a problem with Jaime's storyline a few people have identified: If Brienne is bringing him to Lady Stoneheart, he's a dead man. Stoneheart would have him hanged on the spot, for being a Lannister, "Jaime Lannister sends his regards", and the trebuchet thing that Tom O'Sevens was around for. I don't buy the notion of a trial by combat in the slightest, Lady Stoneheart has never held any sort of fair trial for anyone...

...but if in the moment that Jaime meets Stoneheart, Tom O'Sevens' report of the impending marriage hits the Brotherhood without Banners? Then she might decide to handle Jaime and the wedding guests in one big slaughter. And an ongoing massacre might be the opportunity for Brienne to cut him free.

Oh yeah, and another thing. Tom O'Sevens was with Jaime before deciding to stay in Riverrun - and crucially, he was there for Jaime's demand that the hostages be handed over. Given that the Brotherhood managed to capture Ryman, I expect they'll be able to break these hostages free, thus gaining a lever with which to obtain the Riverlords' cooperation - and their troops, which per the sadly departed @racefortheironthrone (RIP) number about 10,000. Even a fraction of that should be sufficient to overwhelm any guard the Freys have, if (not "since"; we don't actually have numbers on the Brotherhood right now) the Brotherhood without Banners can't do it themselves. Note also that the other army loyal to King's Landing, Randyll Tarly's, has left the Riverlands after Margaery's arrest. The Freys and remnants of Lannisters are on their own.

PS: We know that Late Walder rode to King's Landing for a tourney a year before the War of Five Kings, so we know he's not immobile at the Twins. Given his spiteful nature, I can absolutely see him go to Riverrun to rub it in the Tullys' nose that he's now the top dog. And his attitude to apologies has the hallmarks of a GRRM threefold revelation: "What good are apologies? I ask you" in AGoT as a setup, "Oh, but I’ll make you an apology, that will mend them all again, heh" at the Red Wedding as reminder, and the payoff (h/t: @turtle-paced): Screaming apologies as Stoneheart murders him.

[cynicalclassicist]

Huh, ASOIAF Tumblr really feels old. Yeh, I've heard that Black Walder stuff flying around. Maybe it happened or maybe it didn't. It feels fitting, as Stevron's death leaves a lot of potential instability for House Frey, with way too many heirs.

Who killed Stevron Frey?

Huh. I was going to say “I thought he died in battle?” But then I checked the wiki and ACOK, and:

“Your uncle Ser Stevron Frey was among those who lost their lives at Oxcross. He took a wound in the battle, Robb writes. It was not thought to be serious, but three days later he died in his tent, asleep.”

So, hmm. That’s just a bit suspicious.

OK, so we know it wasn’t Big Walder, he was up at Winterfell. It probably wasn’t the Brotherhood, either. Who else had it in for Freys, prior to the Red Wedding?

Let’s see… the Frey inheritance goes Old Walder Frey > Stevron Frey (Walder’s eldest son) > Ryman Frey (Stevron’s eldest son) > Edwyn Frey (Ryman’s eldest son) > Walda Frey (Edwyn’s daughter, 8 years old) > Black Walder Frey (Ryman’s second son)…

Ah, there we go. Black Walder is not to be trusted. It’s known he’s slept with his brothers’ wives, his cousins, and maybe even his father’s wife. And Edwyn worried he was behind Ryman’s mysterious death — which was wrong, that was the Brotherhood (as linked above) — but what if Edwyn had the right motive but the wrong target?

So yeah, if Edwyn dies mysteriously, and Walda “disappears”, don’t be surprised. Though Black Walder might be Walda’s real father, so a disappearance might not be that necessary, just a usurpation.

Or… Stevron could have just died naturally. “He was very old. Five-and-sixty, I think. Too old for battles. He was always saying he was tired.” Conspiracies aren’t always necessary, really.

[stormdnerys]

So... I've had this idea in my head for a while now, but... what if, at the end of Robert's Rebellion, Daenerys was actually raised by Ned Stark and betrothed to Robb Stark?

Everyone knows the story: Ser Willem intended to take Queen Rhaella and her little dragons, fulfilling his duty, but unfortunately for the queen, Willem was intercepted by Stannis's soldiers before he could reach her. Rhaella didn't escape and died during childbirth, though not before begging Stannis Baratheon to spare her little dragons' lives, for the blood their families once shared.

Daenerys grows up in the North, as Stannis and Ned manage to keep her alive, though they condemn Viserys to take the black (Robert is already sitting on a bloody throne; adding more blood would only drown him further—this is the Spider's counsel).

Dany knows the Northerners don’t love her; she grows up knowing the sins her brother committed and the atrocities her father ordered, and though in any other life she might have taken pride in her lineage—because everyone actually remembers Queen Rhaella fondly—Daenerys is completely disconnected from that part of her life.

She’s not a Northerner, but she has been raised under Northern manners and ideals. She is a dragon but wears the skin of a wolf., breathing ice instead of fire.

And the thing is… everything happens as in canon: Ned becomes Hand of the King and is beheaded by order of Joffrey Baratheon when he uncovers her origins. The Northern lords declare Robb King in the North and Daenerys as their queen, who has earned her place. Both are betrayed by Theon Greyjoy and Walder Frey. Robb dies at the Red Wedding, and Daenerys barely escapes with her life thanks to Ghost, her direwolf. Winterfell is taken by Roose Bolton, and Daenerys is forced to marry Ramsay in a desperate attempt by the Boltons to secure their fragile hold on the North. Though Daenerys isn’t a Stark, she is respected as one.

And Daenerys, though she would rather die than allow another man to touch her, sees it as the price she must pay to reclaim her home. Daenerys eventually finds her way and frees herself from Ramsay, taking back control of Winterfell.

She rebuilds her kingdom from the ashes, leaving behind the warm wolf she once was. Now she is a Winter Queen, and she will be respected and treated as such. She is scarred by war and its horrors; all she wants is to bring her family back together and finally die. Rickon is with her, which is some comfort, but Bran is still lost beyond the Wall, Arya is presumed dead, and Sansa is married to the Lannister dwarf, subjected to the horror and torment of the bastard who calls himself king. Daenerys leads the war, determined to fulfill her purpose. She does not fear bringing winter with her.

But... the rumors are true and it is something that takes everyone by surprise, Stannis, who dies in battle, Joffrey, who has decided to close the gates of Kings Landing and Daenerys, who knows that her last kinsman, Viserys, died beyond the wall.

Beyond the Narrow Sea, a young Targaryen prince managed to escape and calls himself Rhaegar's son. He has three dragons at his command and has come to reclaim what is rightfully his.

And that includes his young aunt Dany.