#anti jon stans

[lives4lovesworld]

jon's "ice and fire" parentage argument for him to be TPtwp needs to die already:

George R. R. Martin to Adria's News: I mean… Fire is love, fire is passion, fire is sexual ardor and all of these things. Ice is betrayal, ice is revenge, ice is… you know, that kind of cold inhumanity and all that stuff is being played out in the books.

No house, no human, no fucking living sentient creature is "ice". It is literally the antithesis of it. They are all encapsulated under "fire" because it represent life. House Stark with its hot temperament "the wolf blood", the ones to "endure" winter, to be the North's Warden IS a flame, an ember, a part of that fire that burns against the Ice. More so than any other andal house, less so than any valyrian one.

You would have more a leg to stand on was your argument that Jon has been touched by ice as he has died but will be brought back but I guess that doesn’t make Jon ✨️special✨️ enough for numerous characters have been brought back; Beric, Catelyn, Drogo, Patchface, etc...

The Jon-is-asoiaf clowns are also the same ones to turn the goody snowflakes/grrm gift to the world/the most oppressive uwu puppies the Starks into Ice, the literal evil of this world, and the same ones who proclaim fire is as bad as ice, two extremes the world must be delivered of when talking about Daenerys but suddenly being the product of these extremes is the solution if its Jon. The brain gymnastics are on Simone Biles's level of wild. 🤡

[katerina-q]

Posts like this confirms that the so-called Jon's stans didn't understand shit about this character as much as Kit Harington

Hilarious

[sayruq]

i get your point about the sansa exclusion but also forgot to add that a lot of og theorists were also really REALLY in support of king jon and marriage of ice and fire so any character/theory/plot/scenario that posed a threat to this was hardcore dismissed , the finale and confirmation of bran being king completely shell shocked the fandom theorists so a lot of anger came from that, there were people who had the theory that sansa will get support from the vale to reclaim winterfell but a lot of the time it spiraled into random theories that sansa needed to "find humility" in her arc and was gonna marry the hound in the end(despite him dying) or give up her claim to winterfell to anyone else just....randomly, so exclusion in narrative to fit theorists ideas and other characters were there in the beginning ig but after the outline leak it got worse

I agree. I think it was primarily motivated by exclusion but they had other reasons like thinking it was proof of a Jonerys endgame (or Jonarya if you were particularly delusional).

[alsethwisson]

Catelyn: 'Jon being a bastard raised with his trueborn siblings will cause him to be bitter, resentful, and aspire to more because of said resentment which could hurt my children.'

Jon in his POVs: *is resentful and feels entitled to Cat's love, and is bitter because he will never have the Stark name or Winterfell*

So....Cat was completely right about Jon and fandom still comes for her because she didn't sufficiently mother her husband's supposed affair baby. LOL. Typical.

Cat was wrong when she presumed Jon would usurp her kids. On the other hand, he won't usurp their right mostly to prove Cat wrong...

By the by, funniest thing is, even if Cat somehow came to love Jon -it's possible, if not probable - nothing much would've changed for him apart from our fave sullen boi getting a proper mother figure.

Because no amount of motherly love can make a bastard into a trueborn, that's the sad reality of their life. Cautious glances when he bests Robb, "you can't be the lord of Winterfell", sitting with the servants - all that has nothing to do with Cat and everything with societal norms.

Were he called "brother" by Sansa or "son" by Cat, but still not allowed to wear Stark colours, would it be easier for him? I don't think so.

Jon is a teenager and he doesn't have the apparatus to blame society. He can't blame Ned, because Ned was his loving parent and blaming a loving parent doesn't come easily. So he puts all the blame on Catelyn. And because many people in the fandom have emotional maturity and reading comprehension of a bitter teenager, we have what we have.

[silverflameataraxia]

Sansa and Jeyne are the only people to call Arya ugly.

Meanwhile Ned, Jon, Gendry, Lady Smallwood, and the kindly man have all commented on her beauty, but this fandom ignores it in favor of two middle-school-aged mean girls who have to put Arya down to feel good about themselves.

[rise-my-angel]

"Bastards are no different then trueborn children and don't deserve to be looked down on."

Can actually coexist with the following:

"Bastards cannot be legally trueborn, unless by official royal decree of the King himself, and tricking the realm into thinking your children are trueborn when you have never publically declared them as bastards, so they can inherit over their non bastard relatives, is treason."

The fan discussed moral argument about bastards in this universe are not the same as the in universe legal argument. Stop mistaking these two things and realize both discussions can co exist at the same time and both be correct.

[karaspal]

the superfam tag is just batfam 2.0 tag. where are the women??? where are the men of colour??? why is it only clark, kon and jon??? and why are they always in the presence of a bat??? WHY???

(i love the boys, don’t get me wrong. clark is literally my second all-time favourite character. but the superfam is more than three white dudes.)

[devine-fem]

no you guys dont fucking get it!!! LOOK!! THATS JON KENT!! THEY ARE BOYFRIEND WEBTOONING THIS MAN!! 😭😭 THIS IS ACTUALLY UNBEARABLE!

this shit is embarrassing! im no longer queer guys, i am cishet!!!

[ai-manre]

Wha-what now??? WHAT???! This is extremely stupid, why would Lyanna ask for that when her joining with Rhaegar has already fulfilled that pact? And why only first born daughter and not any daughter (hint Jon would always choose Arya). And why would such a stupid premise even exist.

Sorry but Jon*Sansa shippers have the absolute worst theories and takes.

[crimsonbastard]

That's it. I've had it with these brain-dead takes

Rightful Queen:

Firstly, what the fuck do you mean when you say Rightful? There's no "Rightful" monarch in ASOIAF. There are only the ones who are elected as per the laws in which the Realm Functions. So There's only Lawful Queen or Lawful King.

Daenerys: Wasn't the Rightful Queen by blood, but by conquest (mass murdering an entire city that surrendered), but even then, she had contenders to the Throne in the form of her nephew. Her family was deposed through rebellion and they were in exile.

The throne no longer belonged to her unless she forcefully claimed it back. After Robert's death, the crown goes to Stannis, the next in line, followed by Shireen, considering Robert's children aren't his. But since all the legitimate Baratheons died and Gendry wasn't legitimized yet, the Lannisters covertly took the crown by continuing to pose Cersei's children as true borns (the children atleast took after one of the parents, making the argument for their legitimacy somwhat strong, Unlike Rhaenyra).

Daenerys took Kingslanding by force, decimating the city and it's populace with Dragon Fire and seated herself on the Throne. So yes, she has become the Lawful Queen by right of Conquest, all that's left is to eliminate the equally Lawful Contender to the throne, it being Jon.

Rhaenyra: Despite Viserys i (who was the younger of the two candidates, but got elected over Rhaenys who was older than him) naming her as his heir after Aemma's and Baelon's death he never really prepares her to rule in the future. He doesn't teach her the ways of Politics, nor does he reinforce the line of succession. He instead puts his daughter's claim in jeaprody and remarries, and sires THREE LEGITIMATE SONS. As unfair as it sounds, Westeros follows Male Primogeniture, the very system that made Viserys i heir to the throne over Rhaenys. As long as Aegon ii, Aemond and Daeron lived, Rhaenyra would always have challengers to the Throne.

"Half-Blooded" Murderer named Aegon:

Funny how TB thinks just because someone's Half-Targ (half inbred), It automatically makes them less of a claimant to the throne. Paternity goes a long way in Westeros.

Aegon ii is the first born son of King Viserys ii Targaryen and Queen Alicent Hightower. He's the result of a legitimate marriage between two ancient and powerful houses. He was anointed by a Septon of the Faith, crowned with thousands as a witness. As shitty as his character is in the show, he's a more legitimate claimant to the throne compared to Rhaenyra and her illegitimate children.

Jon Snow (Aegon) being confirmed to be R+L=J in the show doesn't make him a "half-blood" by any chance. He's the Son of Rhaegar Targaryen and Lyanna Stark. The show states that Rhaengar annulled his marriage with Elia Martell, making Jon a "legitimate" (as per TB) contender to the throne.

There's also the implication of the term "half-blooded" used in the post. Just because Jon and Aegon ii are half Targaruen doesn't make them less of a claimant. It also sheds light on the Targaryen Exceptionalism that TB drinks like kool-aid. Anyone who's non-targ or is half-targ and isn't on the Targaryen side is automatically treated as lesser.

[sayruq]

i dont think key fivers were afraid of sansa of course fandom toxicity ramped up as the season went on and post show but its probably because the show whitewashed a lot of characters and their conflict like tyrion both because they were favourite character by the showrunners and the show wanted generic conflict instead of complexity and many characters and arcs got cut because of it, this turned fandom into thinking key 5 didnt mean "characters who affect the story good or bad depending on point of view" but turned into "the key 5 are heroes that'll save the day against the others and have a happy ending" by season 5/6

sansa was mostly ignored or victim blamed even by book fans before the show exept by a few so i dont know what they really thought her story was gonna be by the end but the show made it worse by not giving her enough nuance even in the early seasons and while diverging her arc pretty badly, it had her in a position of leadership, this pushed the idea in BROAD strokes that might be explained better in the books that her character did matter so i guess it did ruffle some feathers of theorists that didnt think about her all these years and a lot of there theories were proven wrong in the end

I'm telling you it's to exclude Sansa. The whole point is to 'prove' that she's not a main character and won't be involved in the final war(s) of the books. I've seen it with my own eyes.

GRRM himself said he was mostly pulling shit out of his ass with that outline and most people moved on from it once the novelty wore off but a contingent of antis saw it as all the evidence they need that Sansa won't

help free Winterfell from the Boltons

play a part in the fight against the Others

play a part in the war between Aegon vs Daenerys

have a romance with Jon (I don't ship Jonsa but you can't deny that a big part of Key Fiver is the idea that Sansa isn't important enough for a romance with Jon unlike his aunt and other sister

rule the North as Lady of Winterfell or Queen

And I have to disagree, while many people ignored all the signs pointing to Sansa becoming a big player in the game of thrones, they didn't ignore Sansa as a character at all.

I also get where you're coming from but the idea that Jon, Dany and Tyrion (with help from Bran and maaaaaaaaybe Arya - the idea that she'd become some sort of Batman in the Riverlands with her army of wolves was more popular than the idea she'd play a role in fighting the Others which is why D&D chose her specifically to deliver the killing blow) was there before we got the outline. Key Fivers just absorbed it into their DIY lore.

[swee26oy]

I was reading fanfic about Elia Martell, Robert's Rebellion and all that. And I discovered something really funny. lyanna stans are so desperate that they try to steal everything elia has. Her title as a princess she was born with, her kindness, her love for children and the thing that made me laugh so hard even her friendships with the characters they tie it all to lyanna they are so obsessed that they make aegon and rhaenys love lyanna and hate their real mother. Also elia is like a whore in these stories. The most embarrassing thing is the authors who claim to love elia but are willing to have rhaegar be in a relationship with every female in asoiaf except elia and this follows them stealing everything about elia and putting her in that character or making their own character based on elia as well.

All of this makes me think how perfect Elia is.

[blissfulphilospher]

if they adapt Robert's Rebellion

I don't want to give anyone ideas but if they ever make Robert Rebellion's tv or movie version then Robert Baratheon is going to be portrayed as the worst man ever who raped woman here and there and probably assaulted Lyanna.

And that's why she ran away with the tragic melancholic godly prince who was so noble and good but trapped in a marriage with either an unstable chronically ill brown woman or a scheming ambitious brown woman who doesn't love him at all and maybe cheats on him.

Tragic King Aerys who loves his family and wants to burn the whole city because he has a good cause!! Sacrifices will wake dragons! Dragons eggs could have hatched before Dany! Aerys' was a genius. And yes Rhaella supported him and Rhaegar with everything.

It was House Targaryen against the world.

Also, Tywin Lannister was best buddy of Aerys. He sent the Mountain and Amory Lorch to protect the royal family! Those noble knights who accidentally killed the little girl maybe because he couldn't identify whether the Princess was Targaryen or not? Maybe she wasn't.

The Mountain too had similar accidents because Aegon isn't the ptwp or he doesn't exist at all. Problem solved! Rhaegar had no son! This is true! Jon is his only son!!

And let's not forget how hard it was for the Mountain and other guy to climb the building, their struggle to get in Maegor's Holdfast!! They will show us that, than the Princess who is trapped helplessly in a tower with a drawbridge, drawn up and no way to escape with her children.

But no problem that those children died, they were nothing special no one mourns them or their mother. They deserved to be killed and forgotten. House Martell supports Targaryens! They will rise for Jon if they knew! True love of the prince Rhaegar already gave him the only son. Aegon 6th!!

And see a noble honourable Stark lord will raise because 'song ice and fire!' 'prophecy baby' and not because he is the last piece of his sister and that's what any uncle will do.

And… Jon Arryn? Who is Jon Arryn? Why does he want to rebel? He has no reason! (His heir was also murdered idk why people forget that!)

And yes the war was started by Littlefinger if you didn't know before he hyped up Brandon to march to KL. 😄

[kidcaroline]

Joffrey never loved Sansa and he didn't die with her name on his lips, unlike Rhaegar

-Lyanna died with Rhaegar's roses in her hand, something that Sansa would never do with Joffrey's roses or gifts. Lyanna wasn't an hostage, unlike Sansa

-Rhaegar is not portrayed as a monster in the books, unlike Joffrey. It doesn't matter how much you'all are trying to change canon to fit your nonsensical narrative

-Sansa is not a parallel to Lyanna, get over it

-If you want a good parallel with Rhaegar and Lyanna, read Jon and Ygritte's chapters and Bael the Bard tale

-If you want to understand Rhaegar and Lyanna better as characters, read Daenerys and Arya's chapters

Sansa stans, stop talking about Rhaegar and Lyanna, you don't know shit about these two and Grrm will never acknowledge your bullshit

[silverflameataraxia]

I don't care if people ship Jonsa, but stop stealing content from Jonrya and somehow making it about Sansa when it's actually about Arya. And stop lying about Jon and Sansa's importance to each other.

Jon and Sansa rarely think about one another. Sansa thinks about Jon one time while pretending to be a bastard, and that was only after someone else brought him up. And that was the first time she thought about him since AGoT.

Jon, on the other hand, hardly thinks about Sansa either. It's Arya that he misses even more than Robb, and Arya who misses Jon the most out of all her siblings.

Jon compares Ygritte to Arya, not Sansa.

Jon wants to kill Ramsay for being betrothed to Arya, not Sansa.

Jon sends Mance to find the grey girl on a dying horse which was supposed to be Arya, not Sansa.

Jon was willing to forsake his vows to the Night's Watch for Arya, not Sansa.

Jon's favorite person in the world is Arya, and Arya's favorite person is Jon.

[rise-my-angel]

I think its funny that technically Jon has "the blood of Old Valyria" in him as well. But if you told him that as if it meant something, you know Jon would dismiss it entierly as unimportant, and that he does not give a single shit about it. Being Valyrian is so integral to someone like Danaerys or really any mainstream Targaryeans identity.

Then you have Jon Snow whose just like "I have things to do, I don't care" literally anytime something tries to convince Jon hes special. He's the opposite of everything Valyrians stand for and it would be so funny if hes the only one with Targaryean blood to survive, so that the last living relic of the ancient Valyrian Freehold is stuck inside the most grouchy, anti prophecy Northerner known to man.