#and what would Edwin have done?

[marbienl13]

Another one for The Case of the Lighthouse Leapers

So we've seen multiple times that Edwin's not moving a muscle whenever he's threatened (the damsel in distress waiting for his knight with the shining cricket bat as mentioned in some posts... or a freeze response leftover from his time in hell: if they can't see or hear you, they can't hurt you) and I saw something about Edwin's motivations being based on him wanting to be safe.

When the Night Nurse threatens him directly he's still frozen...

But then Charles starts swinging at her, and Edwin and the girls are shocked, but Edwin quickly goes from shock to concern and fear for Charles (oh the way he gasps out Charles' name here :3).

He unfreezes and follows Charles... and that's something I really like. His emotions are all over the place and his best friend is taunting someone very dangerous, yet he follows... (do you also see his despair and helplessness in those few steps?)

[technically-human]

Mandatory handjob joke

[thenerdiestmanalive]

Time to spread my Charles and Edwin are Orpheus and Eurydice reincarnated agenda

Dream, please come get your son, he keeps going down to hell to save his partner

[dont-offend-the-bees]

i was tagged in 'wip wunday' by me ol' buddy ol' pal @williamvapespeare - cheers m'dears!

Many of my WIPS are in absolute STATES at the moment. Lonely Bones isn't really fit to be looked at and many of my other current ones are uh, ones for the side account 👀 So for now here's another snippet of the Charles & Cat King casefic, PLEASE motivate me to work on it I KNOW it's gonna be a banger one day...

Charles' eyes widened and he bounced to his feet. “Shit, is he alright?” The characteristic mother henning over Edwin wasn't weird. What was weird was the hand he held down, as if to help Thomas up off of the floor. Thomas eyed it, wary, and gracefully ascended on his own. “He's fine,” he said, speaking it softly but firmly into existence. “He's got tricks up his sleeve, a map and your little psychic friend, I'm sure he's sitting pretty.” Charles blinked. “Our what?” Thomas groaned, pinching the bridge of his nose. “Memory spells, my favourite.” He raised his hands. He clicked his fingers to summon Charles’ attention, then waggled two of them. “Watch the bunny.” Charles furrowed his brows, but he didn't even fight him – just looked at his fingers with confused obedience. When Thomas let a seeking orb of purple magic flare at his fingertips the light fell on open, attentive eyes. And Thomas was not crazy about what he found in them. “Okay, yep, that is locked in,” Thomas sighed, dismissing the magic with another snap. “No way we're lifting that one without time to kill and preferably a truckload of reagents. Looks like it's gonna have to wait.” Charles blinked, dazed and squinting, like he'd caught himself staring at the sun. “Woah. You a wizard or something?” Thomas smiled wryly. “Or something.” “And you're… helping us solve this case? Whatever it is?” “That's pretty much the situation in a nutshell.” “Mate…” Charles… smiled at him. “That is brills!”

Thank you, friend! I'm tagging @tw0-ravens @dear-monday @laiqualaurelote @theflirtmeister @badassindistress @cosmicoceanfic and anyone else who feels like sharing something, consider yourself tagged by me! ^_^

[savages-weapons]

So I'm gonna consider that the Viconia in BG3 is NOT Viconia for multiple reasons: the first not being that her characterization goes almost against everything she is (and becomes in BG1 and BG2), or that that lady doesn't even vaguely look like her portrait (they made Minsc and Jaheira looks like their portrait with no troubles even Sarevok was passable meanwhile she looks NOTHING like any of her portraits) but just on the basis that Viconia is full drow and there is no universe in which she looks as old as half-elven Jaheira after a mere century my guys...

[asidian]

I've seen a lot of talk about how hell affected Edwin's pain tolerance, but not very much breaking down how it seems to have affected the way he manages emotion. So to that end, here we go:

Edwin Payne vs emotions (and how his no good very bad helltime messed with him something awful)

Dead Boy Detectives does a very good job early on of establishing the fact that Edwin is not particularly good with people. He's stilted, he's repressed, and though he can be incredibly kind to the people he cares about, he can also be quite abrasive, particularly to those he doesn't know well.

Time and time again, we see Charles step in to be the face man. Charles is the one to greet the clients, to take note of their names, to set them at ease. Charles is the one to support Crystal emotionally, and his interactions with Edwin seem to imply that he's done the same for Edwin, over the years. Charles has to remind Edwin to mind his bedside manner, and he explains to Crystal that Edwin forgets how to talk to people sometimes, because of how long he spent in hell.

In short, these boys compensate for each other's strengths and weaknesses in a lot of ways, and Charles is very much the one doing the emotional heavy lifting in this partnership.

And there's a reason for that, laid out in the text and subtext all throughout the show, and the narrative handles it brilliantly.

Edwin's actor does a fantastic job in expressing the character's reactions – or rather, lack of them. Because in the most shocking scenes throughout the show, Edwin often doesn't seem as horrified as the others in the face of events that ought to be horrific. In the Devlin house, he seems as though the murders scarcely affect him. When the jumper at the top of the lighthouse throws herself down, he's downright composed in comparison to everyone else.

And Edwin repeatedly shows or expresses that emotion makes him uncomfortable. When Crystal and Charles are fighting in episode five, he requests that they set their feelings aside until the case is finished. At the end of the episode, he says that the day has been entirely too full of emotions for his taste.

So, what is it specifically about emotion that bothers him so much?

In hell, emotion meant an awful, bloody death.

Panicking over potential incoming horrors? Nope, sorry, too loud. Dead again. Having a sobbing breakdown in a corner? Nope, sorry, too loud. Injured and trying to keep it down so it doesn't get worse? Nope, sorry, that's too loud, too.

Again and again, we see Edwin trying to tamp down on his emotions, but also, tellingly, trying to keep his emotions subdued and quiet.

When Charles finds him in hell, he's crying without making a single sound. When Esther starts to torture him in episode eight, he doesn't scream at first. He's trained himself out of making noise when something hurts or frightens him.

Of course he wants to set emotions aside until the case is done. He's spent seventy years learning what happens if you don't. You take care of business first. If, and only if, there's an after? That's when you let yourself feel.

Early on, when Edwin and Charles need to find the correct book but Edwin is unable to access their office due to the Cat King's bracelet, Edwin is upset. He's frustrated and out of sorts, blocked from making progress on the thing he knows he needs to be doing – hurting himself trying to get his arm through the mirror until Charles stops him. It's Charles who has to step in and help him calm down. It's Charles who has to remind him to breathe through what is very likely a panicked throwback to those times when if he could not solve his way out of a problem, it would very literally get him killed. In this scene, we get a brief glimpse of how Edwin looks when he starts to lose his grip on his rigid control.

And that's before we even get to these things:

Because as awful as the doll spider was, it wasn't the only thing skulking around the Doll House. Charles stumbles across misery wraiths when he goes to rescue Edwin from hell – and we know from the Devlin house episode that Edwin is extremely aware of what they do and how they operate. They were in his space, looking for despair to feed off during a time when he had it in spades.

Taken all together? It's an absolutely heartbreaking picture.

This boy seemed a little socially awkward before his death, from what we see of his time before hell. But afterward? He's had seventy long years of having to teach himself to regulate his own emotions, under pain of excruciating torture if he didn't do it well enough.

With an object lesson like that, over and over again, for literal decades, it's no wonder that Edwin has such a hard time navigating emotions and everything surrounding them.

[pippin-katz]

Why Did Charles Keep Asking About Edwin's Conversation With The Cat King?

I was reading a fic where Edwin agrees to the Cat King's initial offer, but because time passes differently in whatever room that is, he's gone for six weeks even though it was a couple hours for him, and it got me thinking. I worked out why Charles was so pushy about that conversation.

Charles and Edwin have been together for 30 years. The way they act gives me the feeling that they spent very little time apart, and wherever one went, the other went too. In the fic, Edwin's inner monologue refers to it as "shared memories"; they experience everything together.

But now, there's this.

Edwin disappeared for hours on Charles' side of things. He had this conversation with a magical being, a stranger that sets off warning bells in Charles' head. He came back with a magical bracelet that trapped him in Port Townsend, that he couldn't remove, and something about his behavior was off.

Charles is not stupid or oblivious. He reads Edwin like a book, albeit with blurry text. He knows something is not quite right, but doesn't know what. And he knows it's because of whatever happened in the few hours that he wasn't with him.

For what is likely the first time in 30 years, Edwin has experienced/done something significant without him. Charles is in the dark; he wasn't there to see or hear what happened for himself. All he has to go on is what Edwin tells him, and he gets the immediate feeling that he's not saying everything.

When talking about it in front of Crystal, he just asks if he said anything else, but once they're alone in their office, he's direct.

Charles is absolutely (and correctly) sure that Edwin hasn't told him the real/full truth about his meeting with the Cat King, and tells him as much.

The way he asks feels... calm? Crystal's not there, they're alone, they're in their safe space, why wouldn't Edwin tell him? He probably thinks he would, but obviously, he doesn't. He lets a detail slip that confuses and concerns him even more; the Cat King whispering in his ear. That confirms very close proximity between them, something that's potentially dangerous and something he knows Edwin doesn't particularly like, and Charles is just... lost, uncomfortable, and frustrated.

Can you imagine how maddening that must have been? To not know what really happened? To only have vague descriptions of the events from his friend? To see and know that something is wrong with him, but being unable to truly help because he's clueless as to what the actual problem is?

It's highly likely that this is the first time Charles has ever encountered this.

As Edwin says, he's "fixated" on this. It's like there's a page missing in his copy of the script of events. He's never had to worry about it before; he was always there with him. Edwin says it's not a big deal, but Charles can't make that call himself. It's not that he doesn't trust Edwin; it's his protectiveness of him. He wants to see and assess the situation for himself. He wants to be positive there's no danger, that it meets his standards. He needs to know everything about where Edwin is, what he's doing, who he's with, at all times, so he can be ready to protect him.

As Jayden put it, Charles has given himself the mantle of Edwin's guardian. Edwin dedicates all his time and energy into helping others, to the point of neglecting himself. In response, Charles dedicates himself to Edwin. If he won't take care of himself, if no one else is going to help him, Charles will. As he says in Hell when he's rescuing Edwin, "Someone's gotta do it."

(ko-fi)

[finleycannotdraw]

I am actually so emotionally destroyed by Crystal’s arc in this season. She comes in with no memories but she’s still angry, impatient, and rude sometimes—nothing like how she used to be, but her brain definitely remembers her habits even if she doesn’t remember the context.

And then Charles doesn’t get angry when she insults him, and Edwin matches her snappiness perfectly but still grows to value her. Her parents were so neglectful she probably became an asshole as part of a way to protect herself (causing an “any attention is good attention, including negative attention” mindset). So with the boys, she is faced with people who will actually engage with her when she intentionally challenges them, instead of just yelling at her or ignoring her. And it begins to change her immediately.

She goes from making someone walk into traffic to “I just want to help.” To “I have friends, I’m helping people, what more do I need?” She immediately volunteers to help Becky Aspen. She stops using her powers on random people. She takes Charles’ words to heart when he tells her she needs to let them in. She learns how to work with Edwin when Charles is in trouble.

And even though she has no memory of her parents, she still desperately wants to be reunited with them, even though if she had remembered them, she probably wouldn’t have bothered. “My parents won’t even care”, she says flippantly on the phone. And then when she does call them, they don’t care. But without her memory, at her core, Crystal wants her parents to care. She wanted them to care even when she would hide it behind recklessness and cruelty. This is common in kids with neglectful parents. She had so much hope when it was the anglerfish, and she had so much hope even after she began to remember her old life.

Old Crystal never would’ve tried to talk Esther Finch down by telling her about how toxic anger is and how important it is to choose to do good. And New Crystal wouldn’t have done that either if she didn’t truly believe it.

And at the end, when she gets her memories back, she is horrified by what she sees, by the kind of person she used to be.

Michael from The Good Place says: People improve when they get external love and support. How can we hold it against them when they don’t?

Crystal is a perfect representation of this statement and I will not sit here and let people talk bad about her.

[greyskyflowers]

I have found there's very specific things I just really enjoy in fics about Edwin and Charles's romantic relationship.

So, I honestly just can't picture Charles anything other than very inexperienced at intimacy but so excited. Like a teenager feeling up his first girlfriend in the back of a car or under the bleachers. Excited, nervous, eager to please and just kind of in awe of being able to touch someone like that. He's got almost no idea what he's doing but he's 100% open and willing to learning.

I think he always ends up smiling into kisses, a little lopsided grin that's pleased as hell. He always offers a bunch of little encouragements and comforts You're doing great. I know it's a lot but I've got you. You feel good.

And lots of nipping, bites, and marks because no one will ever convince me Charles is not a hickey man.

Charles thrives on positive feedback and Edwin makes sure to always give praise.

Edwin is just kind of overwhelmed with intimacy. Being intimate with someone is a lot, especially if you haven't had it before and you've kind of built it up in your head.

So, I always feel like Edwin is in this constant closer no that's too close wait come back push and pull of anxious affection that has him leaning into every touch even though he's also trying to pull away at the same time.

Lots of bitten off noises, hums and gasps. He touches like he's scared he's going to break something or it's all going to disappear.

If they have to stop because it gets to be too much for Edwin, Charles doesn't ever look upset. He's pleased as hell to be doing any of this. He can't think of anything Edwin could ever do to disappoint him.

Careful, light, sure touches because the only intimacy they both really have is terrible. Edwin with the boys who held him down and hell. Charles with his dad.

I think Charles shows his love by loving someone and Edwin shows his love by letting himself be loved.

Charles wasn't able to show love to his family or his friends, who weren't friends at all. I personally imagine he had lots of girls he messed around with while he was alive with but it never went beyond that into something serious.

He can't show his love to humans, like Crystal, because it makes them look crazy. He can't hold a living girl's hand in public without her getting looks. They can't kiss or even talk with other living humans around without it being strange.

He can show his love to Edwin in a way he can't show it to anyone else.

Edwin is proud to be seen with Charles. He can talk and touch and be with Charles regardless of who's around. I personally like the idea that ghosts can feel other ghosts, as if they were living people or something close to that.

So, being with Edwin feels like he's with Edwin.

I just think once the ice is broken on what their relationship is, that he'd be all over it. Holding hands, quick kisses, hugs, sitting next to each other or all tangled together. Also a big fan of Charles coming up behind Edwin, wrapping his arms around his waist and hooking his chin over his shoulder to watch whatever it is he's doing.

Edwin didn't have close friends or family when he was alive, at least that we're aware of. Then he spent decades in hell where his only touch was painful, terrrifying, never ending.

Letting someone touch him, put him in such a vulnerable position physically and emotionally, is a big ask. That's why he's never done it or seem to have even contemplated it until he realizes his feelings about Charles.

He lets Charles touch him, and protect him, and know him more than anyone one else living or dead. It's easy to open himself up for Charles to love him.

I also feel like there's such a comfort level there that Edwin could say I think I'd like to try *insert action here* and Charles would be like yep yep we can do that or Charles could say I've always wanted to try *insert action here* and Edwin's like okay I'll find a book and read up on it with a fluttering of anxious excitement.

Do I also personally like to think bdsm dynamics, sexual and/or nonsexual, are present in their relationship? Yes. Absolutely. 100%.

[wordsinhaled]

Charles has settled on Edwin's lap in the wingback chair in a comfortable sprawl, his knees on either side of Edwin's. He'd gone about it with a practiced ease, as though this is something he's done a million times; as though he belongs here; as though he could search out this spot in his sleep, if ghosts could sleep.

Yet Charles being so near to him, and with such deliberate and specific intent—that being their mutual enjoyment—is a relatively recent development, in the grand scheme. Edwin is... ablaze with the newness of it. He has to tip his head back just to get the full measure of Charles perched astride him, of the low lamplight diffused across Charles' face, of the fond, familiar mischief that glimmers in his eyes.

Port Townsend may have opened Edwin to his innermost desires, but if he is very, very honest he can admit that his private longing for Charles is of much older provenance. He would have given Charles an eternity to sort out the shape of his own feelings, if he needed it. And if it had meant Charles' continued happiness, he would have been content to live out their days alone in his regard, content with a cherished friendship that never included this.

By some miracle, he does not have to.

It had not taken Charles anywhere close to an eternity to figure out the rest, so to speak. What is a single year, after all, to a pair of ghosts? Falling in love, Charles had told him, felt like waking up in a strange bedroom which became, as you shook off sleep, suddenly as familiar as your own. "Oh... bit of a weird metaphor, that," he'd said, wrinkling his nose in the way Edwin privately found exceedingly endearing. Then: "Sorry, mate. I'd been building up to this, you know? What I was gonna say to you. Had it all planned in my head and now. Well. Can't get it out right, can I?"

But semantics didn't much matter, in the end.

In the end, being in love with one another had come to them as easily as it had to fall into step walking through the gates of St. Hilarion's, away from their shadowed past and towards their intertwined future.

It is dizzying to acknowledge that this is real—not a game, or a trick, or a trap. Just Charles Rowland, whom he adores, looking equally smitten as he steadies himself with his hands on Edwin's upper arms, the better to give an experimental shimmy of his hips against Edwin's. Like an anchorless ship Edwin drifts on the sweeping tide of pleasure their proximity brings. He relishes how Charles’ gaze rolls over him, terribly tender in its focus and promisingly molten.

"Charles," he says in unspooled wonder, simply because he can. Simply because happiness, in this moment, takes the shape of his best friend's name in his mouth. To his own ears he sounds strangled. Transported. Not himself whatsoever. It ought to scare him, the difference Charles can work through him so easily with the barest effort; it both does and doesn't. "I am certain you'll be the death of me."

"You're already dead, mate," says Charles, "live a little," and he actually giggles, like he's just said the funniest thing in all the world; like it pleases him immeasurably to know he can have this mad effect on Edwin. The giddy edge of his laughter vibrates through his chest, and into Edwin's. And Charles sounds breathless, even though ghosts do not need to breathe.

Edwin loves him so much, just then, that it genuinely aches. Not the agony of hell or the shocking burn of iron, but something new altogether, an incandescence that lances sharp beneath his breastbone. Something else to add to his running mental catalogue of sensations he shouldn't be able to feel, along with the beginnings of a flush spreading over his skin and the welcome heat of Charles' body through their clothes.

It is, all told, rather overwhelming.

Charles must read something of the enormity of his predicament writ plain on his face, for in the next second he reaches out to stroke careful, calloused thumbs over Edwin's burning cheeks. It's only a feather-light touch, back and forth and back again, one that might irk him were it to come from anyone else—but Charles has always been permitted certain liberties, so instead Edwin finds it... grounding. Or exhilarating. He isn't sure which. Possibly both.

"Hey," Charles says. "It's all right. It's fine. Still going slow, remember? This is brills, just this. We can st—"

"I do not wish us to stop," Edwin protests, before Charles can even finish the unthinkable suggestion. He could remain suspended in this precise millisecond for the next thirty years without complaint. "It is only that I... I can feel you. And everything. Everything we are doing. And it—you—you are so very...”

"Good?" Charles supplies, grinning Edwin’s favorite of his grins—the wide, unfettered one that shows his gums and lets a bit of his tongue peek between his teeth. He looks hopeful, impossibly bright in his joy, and just a little wicked.

“Yes,” Edwin says. "Better than good." He smiles up at Charles, some distant part of him registering that he must look utterly besotted.

Charles laughs, delighted.

And he tips forward to drop his forehead onto Edwin’s shoulder; to put his lips to Edwin’s neck, just below his ear. He presses a kiss there, so quick Edwin might think he’d imagined it, except that Charles does it a second time. And a third, this one open-mouthed and lingering, sending little shivers skittering down Edwin's spine and drawing a soft noise from his throat.

“I like this,” Charles whispers into Edwin's skin. His voice is raw-edged, confessional in a way Edwin hasn't quite heard him sound these three-odd decades. “So much. Being like this, with you. Didn't know how much I would, did I? 'Course you'd see it before me. Brilliant, you are, Edwin Payne."

[ace-and-the-rpg-horrors]

i feel like some of the fandom is a bit harsh on Monty... like, trauma is definitely not an excuse, but it does give pretty much all of his actions an understandable explanation?

like... Monty was actively being abused by Esther in practically any scene they were together. he said something she didn't like, and she yelled and grabbed him threateningly. both of the times she transformed him, from crow to human and then back again, she literally stabbed and ripped him up in a really gory way.

i sure wonder why an evil witch's familiar who's constantly treated like that would follow her orders even if he disagreed with them!!

and considering that Esther is potentially one of the only humans Monty came into contact with before meeting the others, and she's like that - he turned out alright, didn't he? he's petty, a bit rude sometimes, and takes things personally, but generally, he's a shockingly decent person.

yes, he didn't take it well when Edwin rejected him. but, as others have pointed out - how was Monty genuinely meant to know any better? he had lived his whole life as a crow in a cage too small for him, where the only person he knew was his extremely nasty and cruel owner. and then, all of a sudden, he's forced into a new body and has humanity thrust upon him against his will. he explicitly expressed this discomfort himself when Esther degraded him for getting "too emotional" for her liking.

"i never asked to be human. with all these... feelings."

even after the bitterness of the rejection, Monty never actually wanted to hurt the Dead Boy Detectives. turns out, he didn't even know that Esther's plan intended to end them completely, and was so horrified upon finding out that he made an attempt to lead them to safety, which was, by the way, putting himself at massive risk. Esther already punished him likely under the assumption that he just didn't put enough effort into manipulating them - can you imagine what she'd have done to him if she knew about his last-minute attempt to actually save them?

of course, i don't think Edwin was wrong for not forgiving Monty. he deserved that. Monty still helped in the scheme that aimed to destroy him. he also fully deserved to reject Monty if he wanted to (conversely, i do also see people say that Edwin "could have handled it better," but honestly, i don't know if it's just me not being neurotypical or something, but i genuinely do not see how Edwin could have been nicer about it? he was straightforward and polite, then afterwards, still tried to be Monty's friend until the betrayal.)

however, Monty was still very much a victim himself, and any harm he did was not from his own will, instead motivated by fear of the terrifying witch who had him fully reliant upon her, often through both verbal and physical force. Esther never hesitated to hurt him. he was painfully aware of that. she didn't care about him beyond how useful he could be. and when he failed at that, her reaction was violent.

but he didn't have anyone else.

[alltimefail]

Okay gang, I noticed something super intriguing in my recent weekend rewatch of Dead Boy Detectives!

In Episode 4 when the night nurse goes into Charles' mind there's a consistent detail in his memories that I haven't seen anyone point out: not all of Charles' five schoolmates throw stones at him when he's in the lake.

Two boys are positioned slightly off to the left side of the screen, watching and making no move to stop the others, but they do not directly harm Charles at any point.

I know this doesn't seem particularly interesting in and of itself, but it quickly becomes more interesting when the Night Nurse asks Charles "What could possibly have made [his] friends turn on [him] like this," and we flash forward to the next memory, a visual response to her question. In this memory, we see Charles standing up to all of his so-called "friends" who are senselessly beating up on a boy from Pakistan and...

Wait - actually, no - not all of his friends...

Yet again, two boys have been intentionally set apart from the group and yes, it is the same two boys who stood off to the side and watched Charles be harmed (ultimately killed) in the previous scene. The juxtaposition of these scenes begins to feel even more intentional when the perspective flips and we see the scene how Charles was seeing it, with the passive boys on the left and the boys engaging in violence on the right.

This scene is much brighter so we get a really good look at their faces here, but both of them go through a myriad of facial expressions/reactions in quick succession that are challenging to discern with 100% certainty. But with the blocking for the group being the same in both shots and the roles the boys play being the same in both shots, I feel like this had to be an intentional choice made to convey something implicitly to the audience.

That leaves me to wonder - did these boys know, deep down, that what was happening was wrong? Did they want to resist, walk away, or try to stop the violence like Charles did earlier but felt powerless to do so? It would be remiss of me not to acknowledge how one of the two "passive" boys was black: did that otherness, the same otherness that Charles felt and that boy from Pakistan surely felt, keep him from speaking up out of fear for his own safety (a valid fear, considering what we know).

Whatever the purpose, it's a really sad detail to me. Heartbreaking, actually. Edwin is 100% right when he says that the living are messy, and Crystal is right when she says that she and the boys lost their lives to boys who went too far (hers temporarily in the form of her memories, the boys completely in the form of their literal lives) because that's just it, isn't it? This show is full of moral and ethical conversations surrounding the limitations of labels like "good" and "bad" people; about capability and willingness to change; and about how our actions, whether rooted in good or bad intentions, can lead to unintended or undesired outcomes. Perhaps none of Charles' "friends" believed they would kill Charles that night; perhaps they just wanted to "rough him up" or "teach him a lesson." Perhaps none of Edwin's bullies could have anticipated that the ritual sacrifice "prank" would do anything more than scare a boy they perceived as different, effeminate ("Mary Ann"), and they certainly couldn't have known it would lead to years of torture and suffering in hell for not just Edwin, but for themselves as well. But it doesn't matter, and it doesn't excuse what they did. The boys who stood to the side and watched Charles die, and who watched their fellow "mates" beat on another boy prior to that, may not have thrown a single punch, but it didn't matter - the damage was done. They still were complicit in that violence, and therefore played just as much a role in Charles' death as the boys who were throwing stones and punches. To be alive is to deal with mess, complications, baggage...to insinuate otherwise is to diminish the nuance and intention put into every choice not only in this show, but in some ways, the world at large as well. It may be a small moment, but it struck me as something that said so much without having to explicitly say anything at all. Art is a good mirror on society in this way; it makes us face the reflections of messy, complex characters and situations that we could just as likely find ourselves a part of (maybe as the "good" guy, the vicim; maybe as the "bad" guy, the bully; or maybe as the guys who just... did nothing at all. The ones who watched, who were complicit in the suffering of others for what could be a multitude of selfish or self-preserving reasons).

All that being said, the TLDR here is: considering it's the same two boys who behave the same way in both instances it feels like an intentional detail. I wonder if there's potential for one (or both) of these boys to reappear in Charles' (after)life in the future? They are likely both still alive today, in their 50s, just as Charles would be had he not been murdered. Perhaps one of these boys could die and come to the agency with regrets or unfinished business (directly involving Charles or regarding something unrelated). Maybe Charles will run into them, alive, through a different case or just on the streets of London and be overwhelmed with a sense of "That should be me, too. I should have gotten to live." I imagine he would recognize them, even in older bodies, and it would understandably affect him to have to face anyone who played a role in his death, whether they threw stones or just watched.

Orrrrrrer it could be a totally pointless detail! 😂 I'm always open-minded to the fact that after 30+ rewatches I could be overanalyzing at this point. Either way, it confounds me nonetheless and I so desperately hope we will get to explore Charles' trauma more in season 2 (🤞)... so I thought I would share my thoughts! 🖤

(Last note: please excuse the bad photo quality!! I searched meticulously for the exact screencaps I needed but couldn't find anything, so I just took pictures of my tv screen with my phone lol.)

[podcastenthusiast]

Personally I don't think Edwin gets enough credit for being as socialized as he is. Socialized? That can't be it. That's for dogs. I'm tired I dunno.

But like for real. At least seventy years in Hell. 73? Decades in the worst place with the worst people--demons and others keen to harm him and damned souls just as wrapped up in their own misery as he was. And he didn't have friends even before that when he was alive. All that without even factoring in the autism of it all!

Like, yes he shows Charles immense kindness which had never been shown to him either. He wants to do good, for selfish reasons and for its own sake, and he wants a friend. Maybe his first friend ever. He hasn't spoken to anyone else in who knows how long. Probably hasn't laughed since he died. He's a lonely kid, still.

And listen: when Edwin says he's not good with other people, that he's out of practice, I believe it. After the pandemic lockdown I could not remember how to interact with strangers in real life, how to like have polite facial expressions and stuff, and that was only a year or so.

The Edwin we see thirty years later is comfortable with his best friend and wants nothing to change. He's rude to anyone he sees as a threat and sometimes without even realizing, and usually won't apologize. He's blunt, stubborn, clever but a bit condescending, kinda self-centered, full of repressed gay thoughts and trauma, bad at social cues, funny af but not always good at conveying if he's joking or genuine.

I love all of that about him, by the way.

I wouldn't be surprised at all if Edwin fresh out of Hell would just go days without even speaking were Charles to let him because he isn't used to the possibility of conversation and forgot how to initiate it. Thank god for Charles' likely endless list of questions about ghost rules.

Edwin back then was probably always bracing to be dragged to Hell again. Not to mention even more snappish and prone to saying shit that made other ghosts and psychics want to punch him.

Charles has dedicated thirty+ years of his afterlife to understanding Edwin Payne's mannerisms and communication style. He's done research. Because that's what love looks like.

Tldr: Edwin is a bitch and I love him so much.

[alivegirldetectiveagency]

The show gives us very little information about edwin’s life. i’m pretty sure all we know is (1) he read detective stories (2) is father would call crystal a bobtail (3) he was presumably bullied (i say presumably because the ritual could have been a first incident but i find that unlikely just cause. the severity of it)

i hope we learn a little more if we get a season 2 because i think edwins childhood would give interesting insight into him (this goes for all the characters actually) but i think we can make a lot of assumptions about what his life was like based off the time period

(disclaimer: i am not an expert by any stretch of the imagination, so i apologize for any inaccuracies)(and for any typos)

this post got kinda long so the rest is under the cut

edwin lived from 1900-1916 which mostly encompasses the edwardian era (1901-1910). for the purposes of this post i will be talking as if it was all edwardian for simplicity and also because the last few years of the victorian era and the first few years after edward vii would have been very similar. i am also operating under the assumption the paynes were upper class because (1) vibes (2) edwin is very formal which would have been emphasized the most in the upper classes (3) he had the time and money to go to boarding school which still wasn’t very accessible (although education was growing in importance)

the importance of childhood was growing in the era and there was a lot more leisure time and entertainment. still, etiquette and manners were very important so there would have had the “seen and not heard” attitude towards children. in upper class families, child rearing would have been done by a nanny and not the mother. the father as head of the house would have been strict and interacted little with the children. so edwin probably saw very little of his parents while growing up even before boarding school. since edwin was a son his father might have taken him out for things like shooting/hunting but that would have been just him and his father (and brothers if he had any). also edwin does Not seem like he would have enjoyed that so i dunno if much bonding would have occurred during those outings. family time in general would be rather brief. He would have had more time spent with siblings his age since younger children would have spent most of their time in the nursery/with the nanny.

i’m going to brush past the school life part because i do not know much about it other than that he would have started at st Hilarions around 13. and that i’m pretty sure corporal punishment was used in boarding schools like it at the time? (not entirely sure on that front it depends on if the school is state sponsored) we can infer from the show that edwin did not have a Great time at school but i don’t know what the specifics would have been like

etiquette was very very important. i don’t think the edwardian era was quite as strict as the victorian era but there was still a LOT of social expectations. including the perfect posture george rexstrew does as edwin. etiquette would also include addressing everyone properly and limited affection. you also wouldn’t really touch anyone! not to get their attention or shake hands in greeting or clapping someone on the back. Self control was everything even in times of excitement or distress. Social classes were very strict although the industrial revolution created the neavue riche so social mobility was not impossible. new rich families often tried to adapt the traditions of the (aristocratic) upper class but integration was slooow. (Middle class families would adopt trends from the upper classes too). while formality was important, language in general was simplifying partially due to mass newspapers. if you’ve ever read Oliver Twist or another Dickens story, the language is very verbose and hard to follow which is par the course for victorian literature but less so for edwardian literature.

speaking of literature and entertainment we know edwin liked detective stories. he reads a max carrados story (which started in 1914) to charles and in edwin’s death flashback you see him with a detective penny/dime novel (in the scene you can read “The Aldine Tip Top Tales, High Hat Harry” and google tells me the rest of the title is “The Base Ball Detective”). Edwin probably also read Sherlock Holmes which was still popular. Growing up he might have Peter Pan/Peter and Wendy (the title changed after its initial publishing in 1904) and The Tale of Peter Rabbit (1902). And more short stories and dime novels (like the Aldine company ones) since they were getting very popular at the time. Entertainments like the Winter Gardens and Pleasure Beach in Blackpool were also growing popularity. but generally outdoor upper class entertainment would have been tennis, hunting, or racing. (fun fact the 1908 summer olympics was in london so edwin might have watched it as a child!) there also would have been a lot of dinner parties but those would have been for the parents to maintain or increase social status and not necessarily include the children.

overall edwin’s childhood probably included a lot of extravagant entertainment. He would not have spent much time with his parent so unless edwin had siblings his early childhood would have probably been lonely. canon does not suggest he really made friends while in school either.

Canon and fanon has touched on how edwin’s social skills took a hit from being in hell for 70 years (which is definitely true). But on top of just escaping hell, edwin is using knowledge/skills from a vastly different social era when he first meets charles. it must have been really jarring the first few years of being friends because charles’s ideas/experiences with friendship were WILDLY different than edwin’s

[paraphwrites]

dead boy detectives is a show about forgiveness and goodness and change. but also, not.

marren isn't a bad person. she's a scared teenager and she accidentally kills her shitty boyfriend and she feels bad about it and she decides to turn herself into the police even though, honestly, she kind of did not have to in my opinion (sorry i know being pro murder is a wild take but this is fiction hush). she chooses to be good and she chooses to take accountability for her actions. but she doesn't forgive brad or hunter because what they did is not worthy of forgiveness

crystal is a dick! crystal's an absolute dick before she's possessed. but once she's taken out of a toxic environment she chooses to become better because she knows she can and she knows she should. crystal isn't a bad person before because she wants to be she is a bad person because she doesn't know how else to be. she doesn't forgive her parents but she does want to fix their relationship

charles is not a bad person, ever, but he thinks he is. he thinks he's a bad person because he was taught that he was and because all the other boy's around him were, so why would he be the exception? charles is not a bad person but he has to learn that. he does not forgive his dad, nor should he, but he also does not forgive himself or process the situation whatsoever. because his arc is incomplete

esther is a bad person because she is made into a bad person. i think we overlook how irresponsible it is of lilith to make an angry, vengeful person immortal - yes, esther was wronged, and lilith didn't think through the potential harm esther could do. after all, i think it is far easier to loose your humanity when you are immortal. esther wasn't a bad person initially but she chose revenge instead of forgiveness and then she still chose to harm other people instead of moving on

simon is not a bad person, he is sixteen. but, he still does horrible, horrible things, and he feels horrible about it. he's complicated. he's in hell. he's sixteen. he's a murderer. he's sixteen. and it all kind of coalesces in this violent swath of guilt and grief which consumes everything, including the people around him, including edwin. edwin forgives simon but simon cannot forgive himself so simon is lost forever. edwin moves on and simon does not and that is that

monty is selfish, not evil. i think he got caught up in the fantasy of liking edwin and chose to ignore the real facts that he was trying to facilitate his death. he played pretend that he and edwin could sit on swings and kiss forever, as if that would stop esther's plan. and when edwin did not reciprocate his feelings, monty decided he should die for that. but, he still did feel a lot of remorse about it and tried to change his mind. the damage was still done, though

dbda is not a show which preaches forgiveness but it is a show which demands you try your best to be kind.

monty was nice but he was not kind. esther was mean but she was honest. crystal was mean because she was angry, and once you took away that anger, she was kind. they're all immortal or sixteen and more often than not both. they're all fucking traumatized. they aren't all trying to be good. some of them are better people than they deserve to be. some are worse people than the rest deserve.

we aren't all trying to be good but dead boy detectives says we should. it also says it's not too late to start trying today. yes crystal was a bad person before. and now she is trying not to be. yes monty was selfish and dangerous before. and now he is trying not to be. yes simon was a bad person before, and now he is so trapped in his own guilt that he is unable to make amends and instead just rots.

we can all be better. and, we can all be worse. change is not inevitable but it is possible and that is important

[babyseraphim]

A little list of silly Charles headcanons!

Charles collects beanie babies. He has a ton of them in his bag of tricks, and he always tells Edwin that they’re increasing in value, so he’s just collecting them as a means of trade/payment

Every time Edwin suggests he try and use any of them to trade, Charles always finds something else to trade instead

His favorite is a panther named Mercury (after Freddy Mercury), as well as a cat that he named after Edwin (he even made a little bow tie for it out of scraps of cloth)

"You ought to stop giving them names. If you keep personalizing them, they will become even more difficult to part with. Farmers and ranchers often employ the same practice with their livestock."

"Well, I can't just leave them nameless, can I? Everyone deserves a name, and the ones on their tags are always a bit daft."

"They are not people, Charles. They are sacks of cloth filled with beans."

"Oi! Be nice, yeah? They’ve never done anything to you."

“...You’re incorrigible.”

Given that he was alive in the 80’s, I think it’s plausible that Charles’s chosen mode of transportation is skateboarding!

I can just picture him hanging out at skate parks all weekend to avoid going home (I know he’s at boarding school, but maybe before he was sent there or on holidays), smoking cigarettes he isn’t supposed to have and falling on his face trying to learn how to do tricks

"Where did this scar on your elbow come from?"

"Oh, that one? Tried and failed to do a kickflip once. I was always rubbish at tricks, but it was fun trying."

"What on Earth is a 'kickflip'?"

"It's a skateboard trick, one of the more popular ones."

"..."

"Right, I knew I kept a spare board in my bag for a reason. Come on, I'm sure we can find a deserted skate park fit for some ghost...boarding. Skate ghosting? Eh, I'll workshop it."

"Please don't."

Also because he was an 80’s teen and needed some place to be that wasn’t home, I think he also spent a lot of time at arcades

I bet he would be super into pinball, mostly because they're really satisfying and stimmy. Plus, they’re kind of a test of fast reflexes, and we all know Charles has stellar reflexes

He held the high score in Pac Man at his local arcade up until after his death, and will sometimes visit after closing to try and reclaim the high score

"Charles."

"Uh-huh."

"Charles."

"Uhhh-huh."

"CHARLES!"

"What? Oh, sorry, mate. This machine is mint, I can't believe the quality of its cut scenes. It's like I'm actually at the cinema!"

"We are here to finish solving a case, yes? The Case of the Pinball Poltergeist, as you so aptly named it. We can revisit these games afterwards, though I admittedly cannot understand your fondness for a machine that produces such a terribly loud noise."

"Not a fan of pinball, ay? I bet you'd be aces at Tetris."

"Is that a game? It sounds like a contagious disease."