#and hes honestly ableist as hell

[i-am-simply-here]

Me trying and failing to explain to my boss why I think people with a disabled placard/parking thing (what are they called actually?) should be able to park in the parking lot at the nature reserve in town for free because I am struggling to find the words and it just kind of sounds like I'm whining about having to pay $10 to park in the reserve

[just-an-enby-lemon]

I get Jack you're repressed and depressed now quit your job and stop being a dick.

[lu-is-not-ok]

A Narcissistic reading of Hong Lu

Yup, I'm actually doing this.

To lay down some facts first: I have NPD, alongside a bunch of other things that coalesce into a nuclear concoction strong enough to kill every dark empath in a five mile radius. If I find you ableisting it up, I give myself the permission to smite you. This is a threat and a warning.

Now, let's talk about Hong Lu. Because as it turns out, he might just be the most difficult literacy check in Limbus Company according to what I've seen.

I could just say "I'm a narcissist and Hong Lu is just like me fr fr so he's a narcissist too" and end the post, but honestly, where's the fun in that? There are, legitimately, things I want to yap about, so I'm going to yap about them, and no chucklefucks can stop me.

So, to start this off, let's make one thing clear.

Hong Lu is not only a good actor, but also a skilled liar. The way he navigates conversations and the methods he uses are just as important to analyze as the actual words he says, if not more so. In fact, I'd go as far as to say that trying to understand him based Only on what he says and not how he uses the things he says would result in an understanding that's not only incomplete, but potentially outright wrong.

Now, this isn't really tied to why I think Hong Lu could be very reasonably read as having NPD, at least not directly. Narcissists aren't inherently evil liar manipulators, and if that's what you take away from this post, that's more of a you problem (and you can go ahead and block me considering I'm one of the evil liar manipulator narcissists according to you).

However, there is a reason why I have to bring it up. And it's because almost all of Hong Lu's narcissistic traits become a lot more obvious once you look at the exact ways he takes control of conversations.

With that out of the way, what exactly are we even looking for?

NPD, in my experience, primarily affects one's sense of self-worth and self-esteem. I personally found that the analogy of a pendulum makes the most sense to me - a narcissist's sense of self-worth can swing between massive highs and massive lows, almost never staying in a middle "balanced" position, with even the tiniest things being able to throw it to one side or another.

The ways this can present outwardly are. Quite frankly, way too fucking many to count. But there are some common threads we can keep in mind:

High sensitivity to criticism

Need for an external source of validation

Tendency to seek out ways to make oneself feel more special, important, or powerful

So, does Hong Lu fit those criteria?

Well. Yeah. This post wouldn't exist if he didn't.

Let's talk about the first point, high sensitivity to criticism. And, immediately, I would like everyone to remember Hell's Chicken, specifically the scene where Meursault begins to verbally roast his team's dish, and in the process laying down a verbal smackdown on everyone involved. That scene ended like this.

Curious, isn't it? The moment Meursault was about to start criticising Hong Lu, he just jumps in and distracts Meursault with a change of topic - something even Dante's narration points out.

Mind you, this isn't an isolated event. This is just the most obvious example of Hong Lu exhibiting this kind of behavior.

Don't believe me? Just look at these.

These are all examples of Hong Lu either backpedaling, changing the subject, or otherwise trying to avoid the acknowledgement of something that criticizes his status, thought process, or (in the last example) which would reveal an emotional vulnerability.

This is a fairly consistent pattern for him, and that's not even getting into the fact that the line he says when hovering over him before a skill check he has a Very Low chance at succeeding in has him suddenly try to excuse himself and leave.

Hong Lu is absolutely highly sensitive to criticism, it's just that his primary emotional reactions aren't ones we're privy to. Instead, what we get to see is how he acts to try and minimize the impact of those criticisms, if not outright find ways to never let them leave someone's mouth in the first place.

Next up - need for external validation.

This one doesn't have as many examples as the previous point, as Hong Lu is a generally closed off person who keeps a certain level of distance from most other Sinners. However, that doesn't mean I don't have any.

One such example comes from Canto 4, where soon after acting out his part in the play, Hong Lu seeks validation from Yi Sang.

Then there's this moment in Canto 6, where Hong Lu, once again, seeks validation for something he's done.

And then there's also these lines from Hong Lu's various Identities.

Aaaand then there's these base Identity voice lines, which, if you ask me, feel a bit like fishing for compliments.

This point is a lot harder to say is a definitive one, mainly due to Hong Lu's more closed off projected personality. That being said, the fact that one can find examples of it despite that is pretty notable.

And for the final one - trying to make oneself feel more special, important, or powerful.

This is one that's a bit harder to provide exact examples for, as again, Hong Lu isn't someone who talks about how he feels often, and when he does it's not always exactly trustworthy. He's not like Rodya, who while still putting on a facade, is pretty open and easy to read about how she actually feels.

But, there's still some non-mutually exclusive interpretations I want to posit here. Two, in fact.

One - I believe that for Hong Lu, the thing he sees as power is control.

See, avoiding criticism isn't the only time Hong Lu steers conversations. In fact, it's something he does All The Time. He's often the one asking questions to get the group moving, trying to gather information that might be relevant to him, and generally taking over the direction a conversation is going in. Chances are, if Hong Lu speaks up, it's likely to alter the conversation he joins in noticeable ways.

This, I think, is one of the ways Hong Lu makes himself feel more powerful. After all, it's not that hard to guess from what little bits of his background we have that Hong Lu lacked agency for most of his life. So, wouldn't it make sense for him that having that agency, that being able to be socially in control, would be the exact kind of thing that would boost his self-esteem?

In fact, the only times we see him rendered completely speechless, seemingly stripped of that confidence in conversations he usually exhibits, are in Canto 7 - specifically in scenes where he's Not In Control of what the others are talking about. Those scenes being when the other Sinners start shit-talking Xichun in front of him, and when Xichun actively tries to bother Hong Lu by alluding to the way he's been treated back at home.

Extremely confident until something external happens that utterly strips him of that confidence... sounds familiar, doesn't it?

Then, there's the second interpretation.

See, with NPD, there are two ways a narcissist can try to make themself feel more deserving of attention. One is the one most probably think of when they think about narcissists - setting out to fulfill extremely high goals to feel amazing when one reached them and then feeling utterly crushed in the case one doesn't. This would be someone like Rodya.

However, there is also another way, one which I personally have much more experience with - to undersell. To set extremely low expectations, so that it's as hard as possible to fail reaching them, and to feel way better upon surpassing them than one would with higher, more "regular" expectations.

This, to me, is exactly the kind of narcissist Hong Lu is. Think about it. He's constantly putting out this image of an extremely sheltered person that barely understands the outside world, with notable moments where it's made clear he's Just Making Shit Up at points. Wouldn't making one seem unable to do anything, only to then proceed to do things you've led people to not expect of you, make it feel like you're much more exceptional than you really are?

The underselling goes the other way too. When the other Sinners point out something odd about Hong Lu in a more positive way, he's often quick to point out how it's Nothing compared to what his Family expected of him. Wouldn't that make one feel exceptional, to make it seem like whatever effort you're putting in to do well is but a fraction of what else you can do? That you don't even have to try to be able to be special?

...So, there. That's all the analysis and interpretation I find important to do to get my point across.

Just to make it clear, I don't think that the only thing wrong with Hong Lu is the narcissism. There's definitely a lot more shit going on in that head of his. But, I'll be honest, the NPD reading felt so obvious to me that it genuinely took me by surprise that other people don't see it.

Though... maybe I shouldn't be shocked. Some fuckers out there still think Faust is a narcissist when she's literally just autistic.

[doodler16]

long one ahead. discussion of ableism and disability.

i have a very strong feeling viv only added disabled characters for clout/praise. none of the disability "rep" is good or realistic imo. yes, it's hell and heaven etc etc. idc. not to mention she's ableist towards disabilities, mental or physical, she can't or doesn't want to romanticize. look at the bellhopper from ghostfuckers and the goat lady at the reception of the hospital blitz and loona went to. ableism is funny there, but when someone is mean or ableist to fizz, it's wrong?

not to mention every single disabled character gets their disability "fixed" without any issue or actual impairment of their life. it doesnt impact them or shows itself as an actual disability, just as an event that happened to them that got fixed eventually. which is fucking wild. wouldnt be surprised if she "fixed" autism or anything in that regard too in the future.

vaggie - gets her wings back for no damn reason. never mentioned or tackled how she manages with only one eye. how does she coordinate with dancing and fighting? depth perception? it seems like her getting attacked/ her eye torn out by lute was just for shock value. its literally never mentioned again.

lute - gets a perfectly working arm prosthetic. why did her arm get crushed in the first place? only for drama?

fizzarolli- perfectly working prosthetics yet again. at least its shown that he struggles with self worth and confidence with his remaining horns and 'disfigurement'. yknow, seeing that the disability had an actual impact on his life. like those in real life do.

blitz - literally had half of his face burned off, plus most of his arms/hands, and his eye on the affected side is perfectly intact, and his hands are too.

what even is the logic in all of this? (there is none surprise surprise)

i wont even get into how addicts & mentally ill ppl are treated... maybe another time.

sorry for the ramble.

I don’t think Vivziepop and Brandon thought much about the disability aspect besides making into a punchline/dark humor. Because Helluva Boss was supposed to be a comedy while Hazbin Hotel handles all the serious lore and drama. Now in Helluva Boss they want to be serious about their topics, creating a double edge sword.

You are right about Fizzoralli, Anon. The Mammon Special bothered me for 2 reasons: Blitz and the way Fizzarolli is babied in and outside of the show. The fans would shower Fizzarolli with praise for leaving his abusive environment and gaining weight (I’m sorry I barely see a difference regarding his weight, dude is built like a twig) but meanwhile nobody in and outside of the show keeps the same energy with Moxxie. I remember making a video all about that because that episode was so hypocritical and the double standards.

It’s not fine for Fizzoralli to be made fun but Moxxie, the goat nurse, and the bellhop can be? Like cmon. Fizzoralli got like a whole protection squad it’s not even funny.

Vaggie getting her wings was not only awkward animation wise but out nowhere and I have to question is that how all the angels get their wings back by.. dancing and jumping around while another person is singing confidently about love?

Like what is the process/requirements of getting your wings back? Looks it is not a permanent situation. I get what they were trying to do, Vaggie coming full circle similarly like a butterfly except hers was nonexistent/rushed. I’m honestly surprised nobody in the hotel asked about her eye or Vaggie has not been insecure about it.

Like Angel Dust can make fun of her tits and name but never mentions her eye. That would be great character development for both Vaggie and Angel Dust. He pushes her to edge and goes too far, in the process Angel Dust learns more about Vaggie and why she is so guarded and closed off to sinners.

Vaggie’s eye being ripped, It was definitely for shock value and show how ruthless the excorists can be especially Lute. Lute losing her arm kind of adds to drama but it’s mainly Adam dying that takes the cake. Lute is the type to use anything that happened negatively towards her as an example of why sinners are dangerous.

I’m surprised Blitz can see properly, I thought he would be blind, wear an eye patch like Vaggie, or his vision would be 10x worse than before. Blitz getting that main character plot armor. 😂 Overall, the person who truly acknowledges their disability is Fizzarolli (even if it’s brief). I would love to hear your thoughts how addicts and mentally ill characters are treated in the show, no need to apologize for rambling. I find these conversations interesting.

[itsdrawingmen]

We need to talk about Zen.

Every character in Mystic Messenger is a tragic one, and the Casual Story trio is often disregarded in that respect. But there is one character for whom I’ve hardly seen it explored at all. Maybe it’s because his route sucks such major ass, or because he’s honestly a bit of an asshole, misogynistic, homophobic, and ableist; or maybe it’s because his trauma is only briefly, fleetingly mentioned, as he and his friends refer to it, and then quickly brush it aside.

Zen Ryu, beautiful, stupid, and self-absorbed, is, on the surface, a perfect comic relief character, a beloved himbo, brash but well-intentioned. And I think this wonderful actor has been playing that role so well that he has fooled everyone, including the fandom.

Some character exploration and the uncropped art under the cut.

It’s no secret that Zen’s selfishness is nothing but a coping mechanism, masking a deep-set fear of inadequacy and paralysing self-doubt. It’s stated explicitly by Ray in Another Story, and it’s pretty evident from the way Zen is quick to worry there’s nothing more to him than his looks.

It’s obvious where he got it, considering how his mother treated him and his passions, and how his brother turned his back on him when he needed him the most. But there are more things I haven’t seen discussed anywhere, and I have a lot of thoughts and headcanons, and simply questions, so let’s start from the very beginning.

It’s made very clear in Zen’s route that his early life was… well, horrible. As early as kindergarten, he started getting singled out for his looks. Strangers kept staring at him and wanting to touch him, which bothered his mother.

Instead of getting on their child’s side, little Hyun’s parents tried to convince him he was ugly, to ‘humble’ him. It’s said that they just wanted him to be successful and to have a stable, secure life. Well, good intentions pave the road to hell, as it’s said. What they got as a result was a child who was harassed and stalked at school and in the streets with no one to confide in but his brother, who didn’t explicitly dismiss it, but still made light of it.

A little interesting point:

Make a note here of the ‘protection’ line, because I will get back to it later.

Anyway, whatever small support and understanding little Hyun’s brother provided him with, it wasn’t meant to last. Zen states that their parents treated them so differently they effectively separated them.

When he entered middle school and found passion for music, what his mother saw was her son turning to a precarious road and basically undermining his future. When she tried to convince him his dreams were stupid, Hyun’s brother took her side, leaving Hyun without the last person in his family who supported him. So little Hyun ran away from home, and thus began the story of Zen.

And here is where things get interesting. Zen left home when he was in middle school. A middle schooler in South Korea is anywhere between 12 and 15 years old. And a person living on their own must eat something and sleep somewhere. But here’s the catch: you can only rent if you are at least 19 (I’m assuming, Korean-19, so 18), and you can technically work part-time jobs starting at 13, but you need parental permission for that. And for any full-time job you must be 18. And this is the first big question with no easy answer: how did little Hyun survive after he left home? Where did he live, and what did he eat?

We can assume that for a while, he stayed with his friends, whom he for some reason tried to hide from his parents.

However, it would have been problematic for him to make it a long-term arrangement. If his friends were teenagers like him, their parents would be likely to tell his family where he was so that they would come collect their son. And if the friends were older and employed, it’s doubtful they would be well off enough to host a dependent long-term, unless there was something sinister going on. So the question remains: where did he live and what did he eat?

He mentions part-time jobs and extortion as sources of income, he worked night shifts to make ends meet, and there are also the mysterious 'bad things' that we will get back to later. But there are more variables here than just money.

Well, as far as I can tell, the answer to that is right here:

And now, I want you to stop for a moment and think about what this implies.

A child in his early teens (I like to assume 13-14), and a very pretty child at that, with a history of harassment that was never addressed, let alone stopped, finds himself on the street (at this point, we can presume: homeless and hungry). And he catches the eye of gangsters. Perhaps it’s my fresh experience watching ‘Banana Fish’ speaking (definitely not, I've had this conviction basically since I saw 'bad things' mentioned), but I want to really ask you: what do you think gangsters are likely to do with a beautiful and vulnerable young boy, besides use him for petty crimes Zen admits on the screens above? What 'bad things' could he have been forced to do to survive?

This admission by Zen himself doesn’t help my train of thoughts at all:

Of course, this is said in the context of exploitation at work, but given the gangs and the ‘bad things’, one can’t help but draw a connection.

Besides, this is where that screen I told you to take note of comes into play. Zen says that after middle school, he understood what his parents were trying to protect him from, essentially what dangers being pretty entailed. It couldn’t have been the usual harassment that he had been facing since kindergarten, he would have understood that by then. Another interesting point is that for someone with a gangster past, Zen is suspiciously gender nonconforming in his looks, and mellow in general demeanour. Yes, he’s rough around the edges, he’s homophobic, misogynistic, and foul-mouthed, but he isn’t really violent. Someone who used to fit in with gangs, especially as a youth, I would think, looks and acts differently. And this all takes me to a very grim conclusion: I firmly don’t believe that a good-looking and vulnerable child with no support network and with a history of harassment survived in gangs without being molested or sexually exploited once.

But let’s not delve into my headcanons and continue with the facts we have. These bits and pieces that come together to form a picture of Zen’s teenage years already paint a pretty morbid picture. But he made it big, became an actor, and left it all behind, and he’s happy in the canon timeline, right? Right?!

Wrong.

The most obvious thing is the contents of Zen’s fridge, which Jaehee points out when she goes to see him.

It’s referenced many times in the game, Zen lightheartedly says he often skips meals and in general eats pretty badly, and I think even V refers to it. And it’s easy to chalk it up to his insane diets and the expectations of his body and looks that he has to maintain to stay in the industry. Or, if you are a little like me and like to assume the worst, you can also attribute it to Zen’s borderline self-harming workaholism. But I think there’s a little bit more to it, and the key to it is actually where Zen lives.

I remember being a little confused as to why everyone was surprised that Zen lived in a semi-basement.

But I didn’t give it much thought, after all, semi-basements seem to be cheaper here as well, and Zen’s flat looked pretty nice on CGs (if extremely beige). And it wasn’t until recently when I was talking to a colleague about his friend sharing her experience in Korea that I learned that semi-basements were actually a signature dwelling of the poorest, and seemingly a clearly understandable trope for a Korean. Those semi-basement apartments are often at risk of flooding, which is apparently a well-known fact, and also why they’re supposed to be banned as residential quarters. And, of course, Zen is quick to tell everyone he likes that place with poor ventilation and little sunlight, because it’s Zen, after all. He has that working class mentality because he’s cool, and he likes underground apartments and old tech.

But it seems that the picture of his present life is also pretty grim. Now, I’m not in South Korea, and I know little about how theatre actors are paid there, but I can tell you what I know from several actor/actress friends here in Ukraine: theatre actors aren’t, unfortunately, paid shit. Even the ones you recognise and talk about, working in cool popular theatres, drop over half of their salary to rent a shitty apartment, and are left wondering what they’re going to eat. So it seems pretty likely to me that Zen’s empty fridge, old computer and mp3 player, daily subway commute, and semi-basement apartment all point to one simple fact: he’s simply poor.

And to make it worse, he seems to be extremely lonely.

I’m pretty sure he also mentions isolating himself when he’s feeling bad, but I can’t seem to find screenshots for that anywhere.

All that said, when the fandom looks at Zen, they see a self-absorbed himbo, the ‘don’t kill yourself you so sexy aha’ type of guy. And he is, and I think he’s hilarious, and I’m the first one to laugh at him tbh. But when I look at him for a little longer than a second, I see a young man who has been harassed to hell and back starting as early as kindergarten, who never graduated from school, who ran away from home in his early teens, worked multiple jobs, and still had to resort to crime to make ends meet. I see a young man who was once a vulnerable teen at the mercy of gangsters, who had to learn that all help comes with strings attached. And I see a young man struggling silently with poverty while maintaining a facade of a glamorous and charming actor.

And I think the charming actor has fooled everyone.

[magpod-confessions]

I feel like the way some of the fandom treats Jon is unfair and tbh borderline ableist. It's not his fault that he got hooked on statements by Elias/Jonah, it's very clear that he was being manipulated into it from the beginning. And even once he starts having to take live statements, he doesn't want to have to! He canonically hates that he has to do that to people for sustenance, but that compulsion isn't within his control.

Like c'mon. It's very heavily implied that he becomes genuinely suicidal because of his self-loathing around this, and how the other people around him are treating him like a monster and demanding he "just control" something that he isn't actually able to. Which isn't to say that Basira/Melanie/Georgie/s5!Martin etc. don't have the right to feel that way/that their responses aren't understandable, but they still aren't fair to Jon.

Jon's existence such as it is might not be fair, because his presence does harm others unintentionally. But sometimes that's how things are, and it's equally if not more unfair for the others to act like he's just a monster who should be put down and is selfish for continuing to want to live and be healthy.

Honestly, it sort of feels like some of the fandom has ignored/forgotten that the situation Jon is in isn't unique to a horror story, and in fact has many parallels in real life (whether that be addiction, mental disorder/disability, trauma, etc.) and that to take the view of "well he should've just Not Done That Stuff, skill issue, anyways you can't blame the others for how they treated him" is not exactly going to make actual people who are/have been in situations like that feel welcome in fandom spaces.

🗣️ (but no pressure)

I yea. Agree! I feel you can definitely have a discussion abt how much control Jon has over his actions, but at the end of the day, Jon has been manipulated to hell and back. But I also feel that a lot of it comes from a place of 'If I was in his situation I wouldnt do that' which has some victim blaming undertones, but also hes a fictional character in a fictional setting, which definitely influences how ppl talk abt him. If someone irl talked abt being abused and manipulated, along with having their addiction/disability taken advantage of, even if that same person would go on and on abt how 'The persons actually fine and its my fault' ppl likely would be very kind and take the situation very srsly, which isnt the same kind of reaction ppl have towards Jon, due to him being a fictional character - rosette

yeah i. heavily agree with this too anon. im way too tired to put any true thought into this like rosette did but yeah. people really dont take jons situation serious, and this extends to other characters in the series as well. the fandom doesn't often think further about avatars past 'haha they have to serve a dread power and they cant do anything about it' . - deceit

[diaphin93]

The worst is that those Edelgard haters are bigoted ( misogyny is a very important part of it, but there's also so much casual racism, ableism and queerphobia, but I'm sure you've seen this better than I did :/ ) but they often believe themselves to not be, and so many of them try to make them like they're actually the one fighting bigotry.

For example, Edelgard has the biggest queer fanbase out of all the house leader and appear outside of the fire emblem fandom in sapphic online space ( hell she even had an irl drag performance ). But they can't really acknowledge that, because that would make them look bad.

So they pretend that actually the huge majority of Edelgard fan are straight men... But to pretend that, they have to play with reality. Edeleth is getting reposted really often in yuri reddit community ? That's because those community are actually all straight men fetishizing wlw. Edelgard is the only canonical bi lord? That's because they wanted to attract those straight men fetishizing wlw, so it's actually terrible male-gazey represention. Edelgard fanfiction are by the HUGE majority written by sapphic women? They'll conveniently only attack the one man that got his F!Edeleth fanfic popular. That guy actually has mostly sapphic and often trans reader? They don't mention it. He often talk about his own queer headcanon or analysis himself? They'll make shitty post on how those hcs or analysis are actually queerphobic.

And that's the same for sexism, racism and ableism. Edelgard is a character made for white straight men, so she's bad for minorities despite her own traits diverging from the norm: she's an acceptable target when you pretend to be against bigotry. Her fans are all white straight men, so they're acceptable target when you pretend to be against bigotry. ( And funnily enough, they never acknowledge when a non-negligible part of the fandom they're in, like Dimitri and Rhea, are full of straight white men )

But that's the problem, the huge logical issues they try so hard to bury, is that we're not actually white straight men. It's so alienating to have them talk about the bad white straight fans of Edelgard, while at the interacting with people like us. Like, did any of your detractors even ever genuinely acknowledged when you, a woman, accused them of incel like behavior without immediately scoffing at the accusation? Did they ever acknowledge that uncomfortable place of minorities in the Edelgard discourse, like they do so often with Rhea or Dimitri to portray themselves as fighter against bigotry?

They erase minorities in the fandom, but they pretend to fight for them.

And the worst is that they don't even really fight against bigotry in the fandom at all. There's so many racist, queerphobe, ableist, misogynist in part of the fandom like the Blue Lions. Hell some of them are very openly conservative or far-right! But they'll never attack those.

Even in the Edelgard community, where we do have small group of vocal straight white bigoted men like in Reddit... They don't actually do anything to them! Those guys are often just as busy fighting F!Edeleth and sapphic women in the community as they are engaged in the discourse. And the Edelgard haters, well, they don't like F!Edeleth and honestly they don't like sapphic women who like Edelgard either, so they have no interest in fighting them. Because they don't actually care about bigotry, they just want to shit on the character they dislike, not so rarely for bigoted reason on their own.

Hey, thanks for the message and sorry that I'm replying so late, started to write this up and then got distracted alot. And I feel you. I think many aspects of this whole Edelgard discourse and fandom Drama surrounding it are very symptomatic with issues in fandom in general, that can often be very hostile towards lesbians and sapphics in particular, due to the strong androcentrism that is visible across Fandoms. I think FE3H in this way represents somewhat of a microcosm of Fandom in on itself, due to the fact that Edelgard early on established herself as a fav of Sapphic and Yuri-centric communities inside Fandom, her most favored ships being w/w with m/w ships always being somewhat of a niche.

Like, Edelgards strong presence in the fandom as well as the preference of sapphic relationships surrounding her is quite an anomaly inside fandom which isn't very often seen and in my opinion the result of a perfect storm. I think what partially plays into it is probably t he way 3 Houses is structured, with the eponymous 3 Houses front and center and a chose your own Lord approach, which creats very much a faction system with this game and with it, encourages the development of communities centered around supporting their chosen Lord and House inside the broader fandom of 3 Houses. And the Black Eagles are just perfectly set up to draw out a strong sapphic and yuri fanbase for itself. There is naturally Edelgard as the central female Lord of the game herself, but I think what cemented it is having Dorothea next to her. Both of them are not only part of the, sadly rather small, cast of confirmed and unambigiously canonical queer characters with the ability to marry either Byleth, they also are themselves written in a way that would naturally draw sapphic audiences. Edelgard alone already fits right into typical tastes of both sapphic audiences and the more decicated fandom, being a canonically queer woman who serves as the central protagonist of her playable route and not only subverts traditional writing with her dominant, brunt and guarded personality, but also acts as a morally nuanced character with motivations strongly centered around the revolution against an oppressive religious institution and a heavy hitting backstory centered around themes of loss of abuse, loss of bodily autonomy and societal vilification. It doesn't hurt that her initial students uniform also strongly invokes an association to Utena if you look at her, even if it may happen unconsciously, who stands as one of the definitive icons of queer women and sapphic centric story telling inside japanese media. Her role is also close to the villainess genre, which is highly centered around a critical lense on the way female character usually are vilified and reclaiming them as empowered feminist symbols, often through the heroine subverting the predetermined narrative that sets them up against each other and chosing female solidarity and companionship with the villainess, which is basically the plot of the Black Eagles Route. The Narrative tries you to force siding against Edelgard and only through claiming authority and deepening their bond to Edelgard, can they defy it and side with her. With Dorothea, we probably have the most feminist character in the history of Fire Emblem, whose themes center highly around objectification and misogyny she faced in what hs implicitely a clearly patriachal society.

Both of them also have strong supports with the other two female members of the Black Eagles, whose personal themes go deep into patriachal abuse, misogyny and anxiety as well as xenophobia, imperialism and the loss of autonomy, both on a personal and national level. Them having these strong bonds with other women, but also female characters outside the Black Eagles, like Edelgard with Lysithea and Dorothea through their shared Paralogie with Ingrid, even if the laters support line is sadly cut short, creats an in short ideal set up a strong w/w centric community around the Black Eagles. With the Black Lions, with its extreme androcentrism, focus on male bonds and traditional Bishonen Design, drawing the traditional Yaoi but also het crowd, we have also a male supporting class who have strong queer subtext with each other, while also drawing in more non-conventional m/m shippers. Especially Ferdibert, due to Huberts more striking non-Bishonen features.

Sorry for the deranged long tangent and going so much offtopic, but I think it was interesting to go a bit into the factors that in my opinion lead to Edelgard and the Black Eagles having an by far above average w/w representation and appeal against the typical trend we see in more general non-female or sapphic centered media. And honestly, I think this is part of where the hatred comes from, because Edelgard and the Black Eagles just tick every box, but in a game that also features your typical straight white heterosexual with yaoi-bait possible Protagonist that draws Fandom attention, to which she stands in opposition. So it invokes hostility and ire, because it ultimately reveals the very centrist to conservative milktoast comforts of Fandoms that try to present themselves as bastions of progressive values and queer representation, when alot of m/m is less than an authentic representation of queerness and most often written around the comfort and gratification of a mostly cishet and in the case of western fandom also very white audience (look at how for example the m/m fandom on the Blue Lions side shuns Dimidue in favor of Dimilix, despite a much more tender relationship that can be read as romantic by the former). So they need to recontextualize Edelgard and her Fandom as actually not queer, as rightwing and reactionary but also engaging in the tactic of it being at one hand oppressively powerful and hostile but on the other hand also a niche delusional group that misreads the entire story. It is all to justify their own more conservative or centrist comfort zones and androcentrism, against a queer feminist Icon.

Though I think especially on Tumblr, what also goes into it is this need to recontextualize fandom into activism. We see this alot with m/m fandoms for example, where, what is male on male stories written not for a queer audience but for cishetero female consumption first and foremost, is treated as the forefront of gay activism. I mean, we saw it with the whole SuleMio vs Destiel Drama here, didn't we? Where bitter Destiel fans expressed the view that their Supernatural ship was actually a major influence in the push for queer representation and acceptance, up to claiming yuri gundam from japan owes everything to some male-centered buffy rip-off that featured less explicit queer representation than its predecessor did at the turn of the millenium. In 3 Houses, we also see this as treating opposition to Edelgard as some form of activism, framing her goals as imperialist or outright colonialist in nature and making the divine whiter than white dragon people who are the immortal progeny of a dragon goddess into a representation of every real marginalized ethnic group on earth...in a game that eschews racial allegories in favor of actually depicting xenophobia, colonialism and genocide against human PoC characters. Many of these arguments actually reveal how Edelgards detractors are basically just performative progressive activists focussing their advocacy on wars against fictional european-inspired powers inside a game, while also clearly just repeating leftist words that they picked up without an understanding of their contemporary political context. Again offtopic, but using terms such as imperialism in its contemporary political context or even worse, colonialism, for wars of conquest and ideals between fictional nations inspired by medieval european kingdoms and empires is asinine.

As you also hinted at Captain Flash, I think there is also a hugh double standart towards male yuri fans which bothers me. First off is blanked hostility and accusations of fetishization towards these groups always linked by transphobic collateral, due to how many closeted sapphic transfems first explore their identity and sexuality through the safe confines of w/w fiction and especially Yuri and this kind of rhetoric will inevitably damage eggs. Secondly is it hypocritical as it often comes from white cisheterosexual women who center their media consumption around the blatant objectification and fetishization of male queerness, with the Yaoi Genre having a shit ton of homophobic, heteronormative, misogynist and transphobic baggage. It also shows a clear lack of knowledge and insight into the culture surrounding Yuri in general, with these kinds of detractors usually projecting issues inside the yaoi community onto yuri. Yuri, as a genre, just never had a split between male and female creators that queer male japanese fiction had, which was traditionally seperated into the female dominated yaoi and the male lead bara or gay comics genre. Sapphic women were always a driving presence both as creators and consumers of the Yuri genre and are very well capable of policing fandoms against fetishizing misogynistic influences. It doesn't even fit into consumption trends, gooners, to name them very bluntly, don't engage with fanfiction, yuri asa broader yuri or shipping discourse, they are much more pragmatic in getting off and just straight up jump into porn.

I think its especially nefarious if we look at the queer community surrounding Edelgard. I mean, Monica at this point could be a transbian icon, because I have seen so many trans women strongly identify with her and build their fandom identity around her, because they can immerse themselves so deeply into her love and appreciation for Edelgard due to her being such an important comfort character for them. Edelgards most passionate fans are often also among the most vulnerable people inside this fandom, who feel inspired and comforted by her. Hell, even Captain Flash, who is often heavily slandered by Edelcritical crowds for the crime of writing a f!Edeleth fanfic often expressed in his authors notes how important and comforting Edelgard is to him, due to his own history of trauma and health issues.

Though I will also say, I'm against the idea of pushing the entire Blue Lions Fandom under the Bus and villify all of them. And even if I did just write some accusatory shit against Yaoi Fans, there is no understatement that in this case I talk about problematic trends I noticed inside the broader fandom discourse as well as the subsection of Yaoi Fans who engage over and over again in hostility against lesbians. At this point, I don't really think the people you complain about, which bother me alot myself, are really a majority of Blue Lions and Dimitri Fans, they are just very loud, pushy and aggressive and are good in talking as if they have any authority (look for example at this asshole who goes into his large somewhat orientalist and overall just stretching interpretations of the games supposedly deep buddhist themes and characterizes Edelgard as some evil seductress due to his own misogyny and media illiteracy). We shouldn't forget that Dimitri for many is just as much of a comfort character and inspiration as Edelgard is for her fans, due to his themes of trauma, mental illness, redemption and forgiveness which resonate strongly with them and their lived situation. I also think the very loud edelcrit community really worked towards poisening the waters and radicalize discourse, but overall I would personally assume that the majority of Dimitri Fans can understand and appreciate Edelgard as what she is in the confines of his route, a well-intentioned antagonist who in their point of view goies to far in her ambitions and whose ideals are irreconcilable with Dimitris. Which is true from the point of view AM operates on, just as Dimitri for an Edelgard Fan represents a good man who has fallen victim to the System and its manipulators Edelgard fights against. Theirs is a conflict of opposing ideals and perspective and I would say its where the game manages to execute its themes of connections and outreach as well as differing perspectives the best. Like, normal Blue Lions Fans ultimately agree with what Edelgard wants to archieve, because their reading is that Dimitri wants to archieve the same, they personally prefer his approach and road towards that goal. I think this is a point where people should be able to have fun with heated discussions but ultimately agree to disagree, its a very subjective matter ultimately.

Actually, I would say the worst detractors and most toxic individuals of the community are probably the church of seiros fans and the "Rhea did nothing wrong" crowd. Like, they can be among Dimitri, Claude or Rhea Fans, but those are usually those who try to force their own rather reactionary interpretations onto the community and engage often in rather racist, religious apologetics and pro-eugenics as well as pro-feudalism talking points and have this weird disdain for humans and human autonomy & liberation, as if they really immerse themselves mostly into the fantasy of being from some superior race, lol. Most of them have rather twisted and messed up interpretations of the world and the story which they are adamant about and usually they build their interpretation of the game around what they want it to be, namely being very pro-theocracy, anti-liberation and espousing the idea that humans need divine immortal beings to lead them, as well as often also being super Pro-Crest. I mean, one of the most infamous Edelcrit Fanfics is basically just full on pro-theocracy, pro-feudalism and pro-eugenics. Usually they have a strong hate boner against Hopes because it really ruins their personal headcanons of what the game is, lol. And I think many of them seem to have strongly jumped to the Engage bandwagon, which is closer to what they want out of 3 Houses, playing the idea of a divine dragon ruler straight and justified feudal bloodlines straight.

But yeah, I think I went into quite a few tangents here, I hope it doesn't bother you. If you have any more asks you can hit me up. Ultimately, I call them out when they engage in Incel and Misogynist behavior and otherwise just clown on these trolls. Its also just sad in a way, because its clear, that they constructed this idea of what they think the game is in their heads and everything that came out after te initial release of the game contradicts it.

[nekropsii]

i feel like im in hell i JUST got out of a fandom who constantly talked abt how mu fave character was autistic when in canon he has an intellectual disability *which is different* and explains *all of his actions* and as SOON AS I GET INTO HOMESTUCK AND DECIDE MY FAVORITE CHARACTER IS MITUNA. everyone decides to write him as autistic when he has BRAIN DAMAGE!!! im going to start eating rocks.

this is even worse bc before all this i was in a fandom where the main character was so very clearly autistic but everyone just decided he was eccentric or whatever. i always lose.

I am so fucking sorry, lol. We are brothers from another mother. It keeps happening. It’s funny how people keep trying to say Mituna is autistic when it’s explicitly stated he has brain damage a million fucking times and him having a TBI literally explains everything about him. He’s honestly a pretty straightforward writing of a Frontal Lobe TBI. More intensive, normal Mituna fans have known the exact injury he has for like, a decade at this point. It is known. Calling him autistic is just kind of ridiculous.

It really is funny how fandoms like to say they’re woke and anti-ableist when they really aren’t. The more they preach it, the less it’s true.

[applebuttercringe]

Arcane Episode 6 Immediate Thoughts

Spoilers

-Give me the doomed Jayvik content, I'm ready. Jayce is an off the wall murderer hell bent on destroying Arcane and Viktor is the new Herald of the Arcane.

-Viktor is a full on magical girl transformation dimension. The floating and glowing, start patterns, glowing hair.

-Huh

-So Viktor is straight up God?

-This Caitlyn training scene is dope

-OOOH they're gonna go to Viktor to cure Vander. Thats a cool way to tie all these stories together. I wonder if any of them will recognize Viktor. Did Caitlyn or Jayce tell Vi about him?

-Look at Jinx's face, she does not give a fuck about Vi and Hucks stand off.

-Man the council didn't know shit, Viktor should have been in charge this whole time.

-Man Jayce is gonna show up and destroy it. 🥺

-HAHAHAHAHA VIKTOR IS SO JESUS, the long hair, the robe, the staff.

-Viktor has his original eye color in the Hexcore universe.

-cookie

-Even Jinx knows Viktor is a straight up snack.

-Fortune cookies are canon? What Americanized Chinese food restaraunt is Jinx going to? Is there a Panda Express in Zaun?

-Viktors Steel Oasis is realized

-Oh hey it's the kind of plant that he experimented on the hexcore with

-So is this real Sky and we were all wrong in thinking the Hexcore was just using her image?

-Does this take several days? How long is it taking Jayce to come to the undercity? He seemed in a hurry when we last saw him.

-I don't care if these animatic style visuals are the result of a mismanaged budget. Arcane's 2d music video style visuals are so good when you aren't being told they are just for cost saving.

-"We"

-This is nice, this is what I wanted for Thor and Loki

-Singed has a Vander tracking compass. Like the Vampire compass in Vampire Diaries.

-Does Caitlyn know the Herald is Viktor? How will she react?

-Ooh the Singed-Viktor reunion!

-Why is Viktors voice more metallic than before?

-"Evolution has a destination" I mean technically no, you're a scientist Viktor c'mon. Thats a common misconception.

-GLORIOUS EVOLUTION MENTIONED

-And he had the voice distortion when he said it, this is the desire of the Hexcore not of him?

-Is Viktor dating a ghost?

-OH DAMN, the Caitvi reunion is a violent one. Not looking good for the Caitvi stans, or the future of this ship. They're doing a Catradora.

-Caitlyn is a dictator who is offended by being called a mongoose, and by her ex-gfs new style. Be glad she didn't get bangs Caitlyn.

-"Cupcake"

-Ambessa eating an entire raw meat hunk with her hands.

-Oh damn, the betrayal.

-HOLY SHIT JAYCE, ITS HAPPENING, IM NOT READY!

-The music, is this the start of the inevitable end of a three episode arc music montage fight scene that cuts between the plot points while a pop-rock song plays?

-SPIT ON HER

-Oh no, this is the sweet conversation that happens to make everything happy so they can rip it away by killing one of the characters isn't it? Is Isha gonna die soon?

-OH, the Caitvi reveal! Caitlyn did a good! Nice. All it took was to be in her ex-gfs presence one more time and she completely flipped. Poor Maddie.

-The blind fold is kinda kinky tbh

-is Caitlyn gonna see Jayce? Will they talk? Has Caitlyn seen Viktor?

-Now Jayce has a leg brace, my how the turn tables. I little ableist maybe that a leg brace is used to show who is powerless in the dynamic but still.

-I wish we knew more about what Jayce went through, or how long the time skip is, to have context. C'mon writers what was it?

-Once again Jayce is about to nuke a child with the Hex Hammer

-Is Jayce gonna come be healed?!

-The come to Jesus music when he goes to meet Viktor.

-Viktor is the Avatar, or a Jedi

-Caitlyn will be saved by Jinx! Will this cause another snap change in her alignment. Who knows!

-Its honestly shocking this is the first time someone has tried just grabbing her uber long hair in a fight.

-JAYCE NUKED VIKTOR!

-IS HE DEAD! MY BLORBO! JAYCE YOU BITCH!

-UNREAL

-Vander is crying lava?

-No Viktor Jayce is the reason your commune failed.

-Jinx crying on the floor after being struck by a loved one like when she was a child.

-Aw this is cute

-Isha better not die, don't you dare show. Don't you DARE.

-They did!

-They killed Viktor and Isha in one episode, Now Caitlyn is just chill with both Vi and Jinx, why. Awful. How dare they. First genuinely bad episode.

Final thoughts: AAAAAAAAAH! I'm actually mad. They killed Isha, they killed Viktor. Both in dumb and unnessecary ways. Jayce's motivations have not been explored in any depth or meaningful way this season which would justify the story move. I was fully ready to call this a flawed but good show till the second half of this episode. I think this arc release will genuinely divide the fandom. Beginning of the end. Oof. Sorry boys. Arcane is Fumbled.

Let me in the writers room, I just wanna talk.

[animentality]

I was wondering if maybe you had some advice for me. I've been dealing with some really weird stuff here on Tumblr and I don't want to say I'm being harassed, but this is starting to get creepy.

I saw this funny meme about how Metal Gear Solid was a twerking simulator. At least I really thought it was a meme, because obviously anyone who knows what that is would know it's not about twerking, right? So I followed the blog which posted it. r4cs0. The blog description brags about being "Tumblr famous" which I also assumed was a joke.

Well the guy must watch his activity feed very closely, because within 2 minutes of following him, he had followed me back and was starting to send me private messages very insistently. It was a little off putting, but nothing that made me block him right away. And apparently the "famous" thing was partly true because he does have a lot of mutuals who seem to think he's the most awesome dude ever or something.

The problem started when he was apparently combing through ALL my past posts and actively looking for "problematic" issues. He found a post I made on St. Patrick's Day about a green shirt I wore and he asked if I was Catholic. When I said no, he insisted that I never wear green again and that I had to wear orange so people would know "which side" I'm on…? Then he found a post where I complained my blender broke and called it "useless." r4cs0 claims that word is the "U-slur" and that I was being "ableist" by using it! And so much other crazy shit I just can't even tell you everything.

But then the most disturbing thing was a message he sent just a few minutes ago. I don't know what the hell his problem is now and I'm honestly afraid to ask. "Still forced to ignore Christian Terrorism, I see?"

I have advice, anon!

Block that fucking weirdo.

Claiming you're "Tumblr famous" as if it's some fabulous title... this is the WORST place to have followers EVER.

I also doubt he's famous anyway.

Never heard of this guy. Been hear for fifty years.

Also, that weird microaggression fake ass SJWing is soooo dumb.

I would just ignore his ass.

Block it, and move on.

Not worth your time or effort.

I honestly hate people who send me insistent whiny messages anyway.

This place is for your interests, and your interests alone.

No one else can ruin it for you.

Always block.

[ranbling]

i want to be clear i am NOT a tommy stan and i want that man to choke

but i fear they may be right about the eddie being gerrard’s favorite thing especially after the mustache… like i really could see tim being stupid and petty enough to make eddie’s “mental health spiral” be him being super buddy buddy with gerrard and giving him his own like “lawsuit era” where everyone shuts him out… like it’d be so out of character but tim showed us in 7b that he doesn’t really care about writing eddie in character anymore so

i really hope it’s just a mustache and that it’s just an awful wardrobe choice but i can’t help but fear that it’s not gonna be a good thing like so many people are convincing themselves that it is… like i’m afraid people are just going to be set up for disappointment by comparing him to freddie mercury when the way the writers room treats eddie it’s very plausible that he WILL be the new sal… which i don’t want at all and i think it would be stupid of them to do that and honestly might result in me quitting the show but i could see them using it as some sort of “he was in a dark place” storyline and having him apologize later and then act like it never happened even though the bucktommy cultists are going to take that victory

So, I'm not 100% convinced the mustache is a reference to Freddie Mercury or even a sign that he's gay (but it would be hilarious if they spoiled a major storyline by this)

However, no matter how weird choices Eddie made in s7, I don't think he'd ever be buddy buddy with Gerrard. 1. They showed us in s2 how Eddie reacted to racists (the guy who refused care from Chim and Hen) 2. He punched out a guy for being ableist towards Chris, I don't think he'll tolerate Gerrard being racist towards his friends (and him, but I feel like he'd keep his mouth shut if only he was targeted) 3. Gerrard was always shown more racist than homophobic. If anything he'll probably tone down his homophobia and think Buck will stand behind him to protect himself (but like Buck won't do that, but Gerrard is only familiar with the ones like Tommy - actively participating in the bigoted behaviour- and Sal)

Also, Eddie being like Sal wouldn't be the worst. There is a slight confusion in the fandom, Sal wasn't that bad (but the bar is in hell so....). Sal wasn't even in Chimney Begins and made no comments towards Hen in Hen Begins. He was a passive figure in all, and def benefited from Gerrard's old boys club, but we never saw him actively participating. He only clashed with Bobby 'cause he thought someone from the Midwest in not equiped to run an LA firehouse and wanted to take charge so nobody will get hurt. So if Eddie really became like Sal, it would mean he's not doing anything against Gerrard, but not joining him either

And if the show has ANY sensitivity writers they will call out a storyline like that

I don't see any possibility of this happening, but if they really do this I might quit too

[darklinaforever]

Criston Cole defeated Daemon by attacking him from behind. I don't call that a success. Daemon is a real soldier who went into the field, literally fought a war for real, and won. Criston Cole has never been on the battlefield. Also, the post only concerned Aemond and only makes him think he is a match for Daemon.

Also, what does Daemyra have in there ? Is not the subject.

And aren't the antis tired of bringing out the same incoherent strangulation scene as a sort of magic joker ? And then sorry, but where the hell is Rhaenyra afraid of verbally challenging Daemon ? She does the complete opposite, even after that stupid scene that makes no sense...

For this post :

For this post :

For this post :

Ableist meaning : Discrimination or prejudice against individuals with disabilities. 

So again ; Wtf ?

And then the last one that I know about one of my most recent post :

Once again, what does that mean ? I'm not talking about Aemond and his internal debates. I'm talking about the drastic difference in treatment between him and Daemon on the fact that the writers constantly question his loyalty to the monarch through the other characters, while there is no real proof that his loyalty can be questioned but who nevertheless never ceases to be so, but Aemond on the other hand, the one who directly says a sentence that could call his loyalty into doubt, strangely the screenwriters will never talk about a possible doubt about his loyalty to the characters, even by Criston, the one who witnessed Aemond's jealousy. That's what I'm talking about. Not Aemond's internal emotions.

Honestly, the antis Daemon, Rhaenyra and Daemyra, have nothing better to do than go to posts that don't concern them to piss off ? What kind of mentality do they have ?

[driveitlikesebastianvettelwould]

I also think that Andrea Stella himself just favors Oscar tbh. Like after the race he said, “Oscar is so strong mentally. I always say he is the youngest and wisest member of our team.” And it's like ... he's been obsessed, literally starting last year with this comparison between Lando being overly emotional and immature (which I think anybody could understand his reaction to those orders given the circumstances yesterday. I wouldn't have blamed him if he didn't swap positions tbh) and oscar being so strong in comparison. I'm honestly starting to think he and his ideologies are probably why Mind ended the partnership with McLaren and went with Mercedes instead. I also just think it's shitty in general to be constantly using one of his drivers who's spoken publicly about having mental health struggles to prop the other one up as "look how strong he is mentally!" Like idk it just seems very ableist and like toxic masculinity. I had my disagreements with Andreas Seidl when he was team principal too, but god when it came to managing driver relationships and looking after drivers well-being and really just the people side of the sport, he was so much better than Andrea Stella. Even look at the difference between Monza '21 and this race. This environment Stella is creating is not healthy competition, hell I'm convinced there won't even need to be teammate mind games because Stella is doing all of that work for Oscar.

That’s interesting, I didn’t know about that.

It is always shitty when team principals use media pressure and bullying to send their drivers a message.

Team politics will always kill a driver relationship with the team. When a team principal or any management starts to wage war in the media against their own driver in favor of the other driver, all respect flys out of the window.

Behavior like this shows a potential power imbalance and struggle in a team. Potentially, someone wants Piastri ahead of Lando. Calls like that can completely tank a championship run if a team is obsessing over screwing over one of their drivers instead of focusing on fair racing. I would gtfo if I were Lando. We have seen what happens when a team pulls the rug out from under a driver by pulling support to give to their teammate. (I’m looking at you ferr*ri) for no other reason than team politics. Not because that driver deserves it but because the team or the management want the other driver ahead. Whether that is from pressure from Piastri’s personal management or just someone from the teams agenda, it doesn’t matter. It’s crooked.

[flash-warning]

I honestly hate to see how much Homestuck characters get watered down and misinterpreted/mischaracterized because they’re so much more than what people present them as

like Dirk is not EXCLUSIVELY depressed and mentally ill just for the sake of it !! he is much more of a complex character and has reasons why he is the way he is and how he reacts to things or bottles them up because he never learned how to properly deal with things

Same with Roxy , like she isn’t just some drunkie junkie as some people like to represent her because she was trying to get over her drinking problem and did ! and she’s also not that great of a state (despite dirk being worse) she still is LONELY and has her own mental issues

And then there’s Mituna as well and Yeah there’s a character with brain damage WOAH so crazy but holy shit. he isn’t That Fucking Stupid as some of you portray . He isn’t just some silly goober because he’s not as functional as your average guy (not even close,) and he’s actually an almost depressing character because there’s a REASON he’s like that and some of you water him down to just a mentally retarded silly goober with zero capability and every time I see someone genuinely do this I mentally compare you to cronus becayse Holy Shit some of you are ableist as hell and probably without even realizing

Uhh this is all I have right now Hhe it’s 9:40 and I have to get up at 4 am tomorrow 🫡 goodnight homestuck community

[bornwholocker]

Yeah I’m making another character rant post sue me, but it’s actually crazy to me how many people I’ve seen just going full hater mode on toshiro?? Obviously you’re allowed to not like a character, but people are villainizing him so hard, it’s wild. Like as an autistic person who has had people pretend to be friends with them, yes that shit HURTS. And the way toshiro went about his relationship with laios(especially for so long) definitely wasn’t healthy, but also like. It’s so much deeper than that?? And I’m glad I’m starting to see more people talking about this lately because honestly, it’s right there guys.

First things first, I do want to remind people that being “polite” and not telling people you don’t like them, but subtly signaling it, is still the standard in most social situations! And it doesn’t make much sense to me and it sucks for a lot of people and causes miscommunication, but it’s not like toshiro’s some big bad evil guy for following unspoken social rules that most neurotypicals also follow. Also also, given that dungeon meshi’s setting is definitely not modern, the characters probably don’t know what autism is! They just know that Laios is weird about monsters and doesn’t do well socially. All the characters have problems, many of which are accentuated for us by how normalized a lot of things are in a modern world, and a lot of things not being acceptable/normal. Obviously these are still issues for the characters, and are addressed/resolved as such, but we need to put it in perspective just a little bit.

Toshiro lashed out because A) he had just gone through some CRAZY ASS SHIT, which I feel like no one brings up. He just learned that his party companions used illegal magic that pretty much everyone agrees is dangerous on the woman he loved (yeah the way he proposed to falin without any previous communication was weird but that’s a whole nother can of worms), and it ended horribly for her! and B) he was exhausted. He had just gone days with little to no food, very little sleep, and there’s Laios, well fed and rested and to toshiro, not at all treating the situation with the seriousness it deserved. And it just hit home with how much he and Laios had clashed, how Laios was so open and honest about every little thing, and oblivious to what toshiro thought was extremely obvious. Toshiro had been raised to be quiet, polite, respectful, etc. and as a result learned to bottled up his feelings, so when he saw Laios being able to say whatever was on his mind, he understandably envied that. Even though we know that it’s difficult to be on Laios’ end, toshiro saw it as a privilege. Not only that, but he had been trying to signal to Laios (not exactly effectively but) how he felt for YEARS. And his point never made it. Everyone talks about Laios being misunderstood, but what about toshiro? What about his years of trying to communicate in the way he knew, and not being understood? I think everyone knows exactly how frustrating it is to feel like we’re being SO obvious, only for it to still cause miscommunication. So why not extend that understanding to toshiro?

Aside from all this though, it’s still clear that he does care about Laios, even though he’s annoyed by him. He literally gives Laios a bell that, when rung, would ring a matching one and be a call for help. Another example- which albeit anime only’s probably won’t know, I only know because I saw the panel- is in the finale I think, toshiro defends Laios to the elves. He sticks up for him and places his trust in him, even after everything.

Neither side was really in the wrong, but people are bashing toshiro like crazy. Unfortunately we don’t have a lot of big scenes with him outside of that meeting in the dungeon, so most of our opinion is formed off of that one moment, but that moment tells a much bigger story than just, “toshiro bad and ableist, laios poor autistic puppy.” It’s been said countless times on this hell site and beyond, but I am BEGGING people to please have a little critical thinking as a treat. Like Ryoko Kui wrote this story and the characters so much more complex than good guy and bad guy. (Slight spoilers maybe) Not even the BBEGs are really all bad, when you get down to it. Everyone’s feelings and experiences are shown from their perspective and contextualized to the audience extremely well IMO, which is one of the reasons I love dungeon meshi so much. Anyway point is think deeper folks.

[catholic-character-tournament]

Round 1 - Side A

Propaganda below ⬇️

Claude Frollo Propaganda:

This man got horny and his response was “that woman must burn”

I love him so much. More seriously Book Frollo is much more ambivalent than Disney Movie Frollo which makes sense because we're talking about Victor Hugo VS a children's movie. He didn't kill Quasimodo's mom, he took him in (when himself was only nineteen and already in charge of his own baby brother since their parents had died not long before) when he was left on the church's doorstep. I mean, he does quite a few reprehensible and slightly evil stuff afterwards but he had a good start, you know ? He taught Quasi to communicate by signs when he became deaf because of the bells. He was also very much into alchemy which was pretty cool. His behavior towards Esmeralda was still very much not okay but I'd like to point out that Phoebus is also a jerk in this one. And Quasi's quite a bit amoral because no intelligent enough to understand some stuff

I actually haven't gotten very far through the book yet but from the musical (not the disney one the other one it's SO GOOD) I can confirm he sucks at being catholic. literally tells a child over and over that he's ugly and unlovable until he fully believes it and won't let the kid go outside. https://genius.com/Alan-menken-out-there-lyrics (lyrics to the song in which frollo convinces quasimodo he's unlovable. ableist as hell and shitty in every way you can possibly imagine and it breaks my heart every time. feel free to listen to the actual track but it doesn’t get good until about 40 seconds in) frollo keeps saying it's good and right to punish sinners himself, and it's not right that the wicked go unpunished. there's a really satisfying moment in the musical where quasimodo sees him for what he is and repeats his words back to him (7:45 - 8:54, frollo is the one with the insanely deep voice) and it gives me goosebumps every time to hear that "yes you do" link to that video: https://youtu.be/HL7WZcTIgus

I honestly wrote this submission because I suffered from severe insomnia for being reminded that I might have poor taste when it comes to enjoying media since I enjoy Disney version of Frollo even after I watched other versions of this character. (I am so sorry the host yes I am that annoying anon lying in the dark little corner of your ask box. I have no other thing to do in my life so hello again) His character is different from the original novel version, and to be honest as an adoption, that is NOT necessarily WRONG. He had more struggles with his pride and his self-imagine in the Catholic framework. "Beata Maria, you know I am a righteous man, of my virtue I am justly proud" as the opening line of his villain song, clearly states his main struggle throughout the movie--pride and self-imagine (super-ego) vs lust and instinct (id). Once his self-imagine in the Catholic framework was on shaking ground, he bent his twisted sense of "righteous" to make him less painful. Tbh, the novel version used the example of Bruno d’Ast to justify his hornyness, so it's just classical Frollo behaviour no matter which version it is. (SMASH THE TABLE) HAVE YOU READ~~THE NOVEL~~ I REPEAT: HIS CHARACTER IS NOT JUST "I HATE WITCHCRAFT AND I AM HORNY AND RACIST". I REPEAT: HIS CHARACTER IS NOT JUST "I HATE WITCHCRAFT AND I AM HORNY AND RACIST". I REPEAT: HIS CHARACTER IS NOT JUST "I HATE WITCHCRAFT AND I AM HORNY AND RACIST". I am sorry for the noise pollution in your submission Google form. I should have taken my sedatives regularly. I am truly sorry. Also please don't bully me in the debate, novel/musical enjoyers. LOOK, I AIN'T YOUR ENEMY. I LOVE NOVEL/MUSICAL FROLLO, I JUST LOVE DISNEY VERSION AS WELL, I AM AS TORMENTED AS YOUR FAVORITE CATHOLIC PRIEST. I am not a native tongue, so I tried my best to express my thoughts/feelings/justification why Disney version should be a qualified candidate as well. If you tried to debate with me, I would be drowned in my poor English. Sorry again.

Javert Propaganda:

His whole deal is like, “can someone still be good even if they’ve broken the law? Can you still be godly if you’re a felon” He really believes that by upholding the law, he is absolutely in the moral right all the time. And when he realizes that’s not true, it absolutely destroys him

he is the law and the law is not mocked <3 he is also. so gay. i'm sorry i refuse to believe you're even a little heterosexual if you chase jean valjean for like over 20 years for breaking parole and/or bread theft and recognise him by his muscles and have a major moral crisis as soon as he's nice to you one (1) time also he gets called out by a child that one time?? that was fun ALSO HE UHH???? THINKS HE SCREWED UP ONE TIME AND LIKE. ASKS HIS BOSS TO FIRE HIM???? (the boss is valjean he doesn't know that yet dw abt it) also uh uhm. he jumps into a river,,,, but before he does that he feels the need to put his hat on the fence nearby so it doesn't get wet lmao he's so silly goofy <3333