#also still absolutely in love with the fact the writers had the two characters from wintery places be the ones with hypothermia lmao
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ratatattouille Ā· 2 months ago
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summary of caitlyn kiramman defenders points that i've seen so far:
-cait didn't go as far as ambessa, so her actions are technically benevolent
-cait questioned ambessa and distrusted her, so yeah (like it doesn't still make her complicit)
-cait HAD to invade zaun and use the gas pipes to (poison zaunite air) avoid bloodshed (which makes it less violent hence almost not violent at all anyways)
-cait and vi learned to trust each other which is what zaun and piltover needed to begin healing (gag)
-vi's character resisted change, so for her arc to be complete, she needed to accept powder had changed and let go of her and embrace the life she wanted (in piltover? with sexy cait <3 - and not her zaunite family lmao) this is better than vi learning to accept jinx and herself and both their mistakes so they can realize their dream for zaun because it wasn't ever really about zaun and classism anyways it was about love uwu
-arcane wasn't actually centred around the sisters and it didn't sacrifice anyone's established personality traits in order to diverge from a more political plot (XD)
-jayvik was just as bad as caitvi (jayvik faced consequences like they legit "atoned" by fucking dying)
-caitlyn and jinx's (and vi's) reasons for tweaking are both equally valid <3
-caitlyn willing to shoot an innocent child (something JINX HERSELF has never done - at least sober) has no relevance to her seeing zaunites as lowkey expendable "it's so easy to hate them"
-cait (poor kitty) was manipulated by ambessa to get those cops beating up and gassing zaunite civilians (but jinx being manipulated by silco means she needed to die for their to finally be peace between the two countries bc she was always the one destroying the peace, isn't that right arcane writers?)
-cait betrayed ambessa tho, so that means vi would 100% embrace her bc she didn't shoot her father <3 and let jinx out of the cell <3 (despite the fact that vi already had little to no trust in piltovians, she saw her parents killed by enforcers as a kid, and saw cait load it up and point at an innocent child bc zaunites were that disposable to her)
-caitlyn gave up her seat to sevika (which is not actually cannon and also, many councillors had already died and there was one new seat added that year -jayce's, who was gone)
-vi deserves to be happy (and she would absolutely be happier with a formerly? fascist girlfriend instead of the sister she's wanted to be reunited with since vander died - like she wouldn't feel any guilt AT ALL for what transpired in the vents :D because cait trusted her despite her sister killing her mom after literally joining leading the military in harassing vi's people post-breakup but don't you see? it's because cait realized that zaun was dangerous with jinx still on the loose so that makes it kinda okay :D vi would totally forgive that after hearing of all the police brutality her people had suffered under the kiramman regime during that whole time :D)
-THE SHOW WAS NEVER ABOUT CLASS DIVIDES IT WAS ABOUT LOVVVEEEEEE AND FORGIVENESS WHY ARE YOU MAD??
-NO CHARACTER WAS ALTERED OR CHANGED (vi's thirst for zaun's independence and peace in zaun) IN ORDER TO STEER THE PLOT AWAY FROM THE POLITICAL IMPLICATIONS OF PILTOVER'S VIOLENCE AGAINST ZAUN HAHAH WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT??? THIS WAS ALL PLANNED FROM THE BEGINNING
you know what, i believe you, and that makes it suck even worse
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most-datable-datable-bracket Ā· 13 days ago
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MOST DATABLE DATABLE CHARACTER 2 THIRD PLACE
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Claude propaganda:
"To say Claude has trust issues is an understatementā€”you have to spend half the game earning his. (Claude isn't even his real name!) Once you have it, though, he's absolutely ride or die for you until the stars go out. He is so full of heart and ambition: He wants both sides of his heritage to get along, he wants to open borders and eliminate xenophobia and promote equality between commonfolk, and deep down, I think he craves a partner to stand with him at that new dawn, or an equal who sees his vision for the future and will fight for it just as hard. Nobody believed in him when he was a kid, but if you put your faith in him, he'll return it tenfold. Some people don't like that he's calculating, or has to leave the player character at the end of the game to go back to his homeland, but both are necessary elements for his goals to change things. He will always come back, and everyone who bets against him and his love for his companions is wrong with a big fat W. #KhalidForMostDatablePrez"
"Claude is a fun little onion of facades. He calls himself the embodiment of distrust, he acts like he's carefree and without worries, an unscrupulous schemer--and so many in universe buy into that hook line and sinker. He's used to others viewing him with suspicion and uses it as armor to obscure his not-so-dark truth: that he cares immensely, that he values minimizing the loss of life, and that above all he has so much hope that people will fundamentally choose to do better given the choice.
His front guards a center that his conflict filled world would be happy to tear apart. As the child of people from two nations in constant conflict--one of which is explicitly isolationist and dehumanizes those outside its church's reach--he hasn't really had a place where he can be without his facade. As a child he thought he could run, but when confronted with the fact that this hatred existed no matter where he ran, he chose to instead try to create a more just and kind world.
His inability to let others in beyond his facade at first may lead to a sense of distance, but isn't it then all the more satisfying when you're allowed in? All he wants is a little trust, a little faith, and--like what he wants to give everyone--a chance to be better.
And like that you got a charming young lad with a fun personality that your grandma would be thrilled to have stay forever."
Elliott propaganda:
ā€œJust look at him. Pure hunk energy.ā€
ā€œI will punch anyone who dislikes him. Heā€™s like a fire emblem character in the modern day. Heā€™s so flamboyant and handsome, he can play the piano and heā€™s best friends with the old fishing man!ā€
ā€œdramatic writer man with sexy hairā€
"Since I like elliott. I will state some reasons why I like him
Imagine if Mr. Darcy didnā€™t insult your family first time you met him, thatā€™s Elliott. The man whoā€™s basically the hallmark romance love interest. Heā€™s a writer who moves to the small town in the country side to find inspiration for his writing. Then he finds the farmer.
He has a crab living in his pocket
He can play the piano (hopefully it isnā€™t the river flows in you however)
His fans sometimes hc him as a merman and thatā€™s just a major plus IMO
He genre of the book he writes is dependent on what genre you say you like.
He also sends letters to you if you marry him
Okay and also some things I dislike
His liked gifts, the easiest one is pomegranates, which cost like 6000g to grow a tree if you donā€™t pick the fruit cave. I AM NOT GETTING SQUID INK IN YEAR ONE FOR YOU.
he might be British /j
The fact he has no kitchen but still likes food like lobster, like he is just a mystery. Lives in a cabin, with no kitchen, no washroom (okay no character has a washroom), but still likes the most fancy food out there and has luscious hair worthy of a Lā€™OrĆ©al ad.
Gifting him on rainy days when you donā€™t have two hearts"
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leohtttbriar Ā· 7 months ago
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i definitely agree that ds9 could have used more moments between kira and dax in which they not only disagree but express that disagreement to each other. but i also feel like their friction is even more interesting for the fact that they are always on each other's sides despite the ample evidence that they shouldn't be.
like, dax being who she is, kira being who she is---and still most of their interactions are in active support of one another. they're a flipped version of spock and bones: meant to express two very different perspectives to the captain--never bickering about it. the "truce," so to speak, that they have must be so particular and fragile and yet the audience is never really given the impression that it's ever under threat of breaking.
(i also suspect the writers were trying to avoid, at least on some level, the tired trope of "women not getting along"--jadzia and kira being the main female characters sort of bars that from happening. but that's a separate thing)
and the fact that the most friction we see between them is some version of them advocating for the other where she's not advocating for her own self--kira concerned when jadzia wants to honor curzon's oath, jadzia wanting to expel the prophets to save kira's life--is really really compelling to me. they're also shown both criticizing the other's culture--like kira saying the trill ban against reassociation isn't right--while also actively supporting each other through it--like jadzia disguising herself as a bajoran religious figure to help the bajoran government. i absolutely would have loved to see them talk about the differences between them more (i mean a wrote a fic about the religious tension--i do in fact find it worth thinking about), but also one of the reasons i think they're so interesting is the fact that they don't talk about it often and still are who they are and still they behave the way they do.
like in "children of time" when jadzia is blaming herself the whole episode for kira's death, blames herself again for kira staying alive and the colonists' non-existence (blames but sure does smile about it), and in between that there's the scene where jadzia is resigned to a fate she absolutely doesn't want, a fate that is kira's preference/kira's death, and they clasp hands and just look at each other without saying anything before moving forward. which was affecting.
bareil even commented on it once, how they shouldn't be friends, and kira just laughed it off---like there's so much there. not any of it undercut by dax's """"underdevelopment.""" she may not have had as much screentime and narrative focus as she should, but she wasn't just there to technobabble. she's a character that feels as much like a person as the others and a lot of that personhood is expressed with her unyielding loyalty to kira.
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melrosing Ā· 6 months ago
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so stuff Iā€™ve not liked about the finale and S2 more generallyā€¦. unfortunately itā€™s a lot and i'm thinking i might need to say this in several parts but first and foremost: the pacing really was shit and i don't just mean there weren't enough action scenes i mean the whole season they've had almost nothing to say about these characters and have just been making us think they do by having them repeat the same ham-fisted monologues about power and peace and the cost of war and whatever whilst moving at a glacial pace from one minor plot point to another and by the end of it most of these characters STILL haven't changed, and where they have it feels undeserved, and yes they really are at roughly the place they started so what have they even got to show for these eight hours of TV?? like damn
and I do get that the writer's strike has really effected them here and HBO hacking two eps off their season affected them too and that really can't be helped. but the pacing has been pretty poor from kick off and I can't just put it down to this being a more 'internal' season. i do not care about big battles. it's fine to have a season of a show thatā€™s more about the charactersā€™ interiority rather than plot action. thatā€™s the exact reason why I like AFFC so much.
but these characters barely have interiority like idk what to say. some like Rhaenyra, Jace and Alicent have been spouting the same monologues every episode about wanting peace/wanting agency/wanting peace again etc etc, and the more interesting moments like Alicent's apparent suicide attempts, Rhaenyra's butchering of the dragonseeds etc... I mean where IS the interiority here?? unless they are spelling out a character's thoughts in the most literal way they can (as per Jace's diatribes about the dragonseeds), they leave their audience to do absolutely all the work by showing us nothing, and just leaving us to figure that the characters must be having some kind of thoughts but y'all can decide what they are.
and even Daemon, whose entire ARC was about his interiority.... like look I was so so ready to love this arc. i love fucked up little dream sequences. i love harrenhal. i was really enjoying the angle they took with alys. i was here for it. but now we've seen the whole of his S2 arc, im going to say yes, it was intended as a redemption adjacent kind of arc, and it isn't a very good one. Daemon has a handful of weird dreams, gets shouted at by some Riverlands folk, and he's a changed man.
consider the character everyone compares Daemon to (and who I'm always more than happy to talk about) and that's Jaime. and look at the sheer ground covered in ASOS: Jaime breaks out of a dungeon, Jaime meets a younger version of himself, Jaime gets his hand hacked off, Jaime reveals his anime villain backstory in the bath, Jaime deals with Roose Bolton, Jaime has a weird weirwood dream, Jaime fights a fucking bear - and at this point we're still only about halfway through.
now in contrast, what have they actually managed to do with Daemon this season. where has that finale moment with Rhaenyra been earned. this is not slow pacing for the sake of powerful character development, it's slow because they don't have anything else to say.
and also look at the state of characters like Aemond who seemed really promising in S1, yet in this season he barely reflects on the fact that he hadn't meant to kill Luke, and this war is an accident that he started, etc etc - he's just a killing machine lol. there were some nice touches in there, like i say i enjoyed Helaena telling Aemond how he'll die in the finale. but I no longer trust these writers to do anything with their more inspired ideas because they just consistently fail to do so.
look at Baela!!! like my god, has Baela had the opportunity to do anything except A) what she's told and B) counsel men on their feelings. she has like one moment looking at Daemon and you feel like the series is going to explore how complex it is to be Daemon Targaryen's daughter.... but my god they never do!! so where IS this interiority we've spent eight episodes on! what have they got to show for it!!
and i talked more weeks back about how frustrating i've found the writing of women more generally in this series and as of the finale I am finding it so egregious and so condescending. women want peace. women want to protect their children. women are tired of men. women are tired of war. women are trying to end this war peacefully. women are pacifists. women hate violence. and so on and so on and so on like jesus christ who am i even talking about here. even i don't know. it's so boring. it's so dry. and it requires female characters to always be the paragons of virtue, never do anything truly condemnable, never be unlikeable, never fucking anything except stand around saying how much they hate this. im bored of it and it makes me angry that they would do this in a series that specifically seeks to make everyone grey and everyone complex - they keep suggesting that might extend to the women before abruptly shutting it down again. see Alicent and Rhaenyra even STILL, after EVERYTHING, trying to peacefully shut down the war for the sake of love and friendship in the goddamn finale. I don't believe it anymore!! it's not cute! it's just dull!!!
and finally that just kind of brings me to how shortsighted a lot of the plot developments seem, when you see how the characters fail to reckon with their pasts or shit that just happened. Rhaenyra and Mysaria make out, and then that's never mentioned again and the tone never changes between them. Rhaenyra is done thinking about Luke. Helaena is done thinking about Jaehaerys. Aegon actually didn't mention Jaehaerys in the list of things he's 'lost' in that finale. Alicent's relationship w Viserys was just now condensed to 'we were fond of each other but he always liked your mum better'
like idk it's just. if this season's pacing is all about giving characters the chance to change and grow into the people they'll be when this war REALLY kicks off.... do it. write it. do not just write the same monologue a dozen times and hope it'll hit harder with each. doesn't work like that. sorry.
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coffee-with-mint-syrup Ā· 1 year ago
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The case of live-action atla zutara.
First of all, the scarf scene. I won't be repeating myself, here are some main points - there was absolutely no reason for Zuko to act the way he did and for the scene to be shot this dramatically. Even if they did the shipbaiting in this scene - it means there's a ship which is much more than live-action kataang has at this point. Also I don't really think these guys are shipbaiting type but that's just the impression I got.
Then - the second obvious one - Oma and Shu's visuals. We have star-crossed lovers from two towns at war, basically the local equivalent of Romeo and Juliet (as in legendary lovers who are known above all for their love) wearing coincidentally colors that are primarily associated with two of our characters (who shared this dramatically shot scene in the previous episode).
And I know, it may seem so insignificant - but but but but! - you have to think about this. Of course there are creators, writers and showrunners that are unaware of some non-canon ships or don't care about them. But it's not the case for atla. No, creators of atla were so aware of zutara - they wrote a parody scene in a in-world trashy play to mock this fan pairing and it still proved absolutely nothing and just gave zutara more content. The creators and writers of this adaptation clearly had the discussion "what we should do with kataang" - because there is no trace of kataang in the 1st season. So it was a conscious decision to omit that - but where would the romantic subplot go? Well, I don't know, but they are showrunners, they most certainly discussed options. They are clearly very, very, very much aware of zutara. And they still do this? They still show us Oma and Shu wearing red and blue? All they had to do is to give at least one of them any different color. Any. But they didn't. (for fuck sake, it is the Earth Kingdom - yellow and green would do it)
There were zero, no, nada Kataang interactions, implications or those scenes that are filmed just a little bit too dramatically like the scarf one. I don't know, there's still a chance that they will wait for season 3 to make Aang's crush on Katara happen. I'm also not so sure what will happen to Aang failing to open seventh chakra, I mean - his love for Katara has a huge purpose in series, so it still doesn't look very good. But you can't even imagine how glad I am that they didn't do this secret tunnel thing. It was very uncomfortable.
So it was the more fact-based part of my case, let's get to the irrational, almost delusional part, tin foil hat probably needed.
Almost all the scenes Zuko and Katara shared in the first season kept reminding me of another famous enemies-to-lovers ship that actually became canon in the infamous final episode - Reylo, the way it was filmed in The Force Awakens. I mean - the first fight in the woods where she looses, the intensity of him staring at her, the final fight in snowy location where she kicks his ass and shows her mastering this superpower, him trying to talk to her during this fight and mentioning her learning/having to learn...Zuko calling Katara a peasant reminded me of this "Rey is no one" discourse. I don't know man, I haven't thought about The Force Awakens reylo for a very long time and it just kept popping in my head.
All of this - it's like a blueprint for enemies to lovers.
Also I actually think that the look they shared in the 2nd episode was also shot kinda weirdly and dramatically. It's not to the extent of the scarf scene but I do remember thinking that "why did they film it they way? it's too intense".
In the conclusion I'd like to say that as much as I like all the season 1 zutara stuff they left out in the adaptation - necklace subplot and implications, pirates and the famous "You rise with the moon, I rise with the sun" - I think I actually prefer the scarf scene. Yes, it would be so great to see those things in adaptation but in the end of the day they would still be just the things they kept from the original and probably noting more. Like the cabbages or the secret tunnel song or anything else, just things from the source material that implicate nothing. While the scarf scene, the Oma and Shu's clothes - it means they made a conscious decision to make it that way. It means they put some thought into that and some meaning. And this gives me hope there's a chance for Zutara in this adaptation.
P.S. I told about this my sister who hasn't watch the series yet and she said "I think people who made this show are just shipping zutara in secret". I do not necessarily imply she might be right - but creators of animated series (the very same people that made kataang canon, not zutara) DID leave because of some creative differences and because they couldn't control creative decision. Might as well be THAT kind of decision.
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elyvorg Ā· 11 months ago
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Kieran Part Bonus: I AM SO PROUD OF MY BOY
And now for my really actually final analysis post about Kieran, covering both the epilogue and also his scenes in the League Club room once youā€™ve finished that. Somehow both of these relatively short pieces of content still managed to be packed with delightful nuance showcasing both how Kieranā€™s still struggling with his issues and yet also how much heā€™s grown since his main arc. They are absolutely lovely and fill me with so many warm happy feelings about my boy.
Honestly, itā€™s remarkable, not just from a PokĆ©mon-writing perspective but as a piece of fiction in general, to have this kind of satisfying follow-up for a character arc. Usually once a characterā€™s arc reaches a resolution, their story just ends there, and we donā€™t get to see more of how theyā€™re processing what theyā€™ve been through and learning to grow further in the aftermath. So itā€™s a really wonderful breath of fresh air to get to see something like that for once here with Kieran! The PokĆ©mon writers absolutely did not have to make the epilogue and postgame content focused on showcasing this, and yet they did. I am, once again, pleasantly boggled by how much they cared about doing Kieranā€™s story justice. Just, wowzers, man. There really is no more appropriate word for my amazement than that.
(This is an epilogue, if you will, to my previous two analysis posts discussing Kieranā€™s character arc in The Teal Mask and The Indigo Disk! Reading those before this is probably recommended.)
Before even getting into things that are strictly from the epilogue itself, can I just say: I really love that Kieran took a mental health break from Blueberry Academy to give him some time to process things? (Okay, the game only calls it a ā€œbreakā€, but letā€™s be real, it is for his mental health, and this is Good.) It just makes me very happy that the writing acknowledged that heā€™d probably need something like that after what heā€™s been through instead of going straight back to business as normal at school ā€“ and in an in-story sense, itā€™s lovely that Kieran realised he needed this and didnā€™t try and force himself to just keep going as if nothing had happened. Heā€™s starting to learn to take care of himself and not push himself way too hard!
Making new friends
The first lovely sign of Kieranā€™s growth that we see in the epilogue is that, not only does he want to catch up with you, he also wants to meet your friends from Paldea! He must have spent some time during his break thinking about the fact that you mentioned you had friends from there.
And the thing is, with Kieranā€™s insecurities, it would have been so easy for him to slip into a mindset of ā€œyour friends are probably way cooler than me, why would you need meā€. But instead of letting himself get caught up in that jealousy spiral again, he fought against it and did the healthy thing of asking to meet them himself. Hopefully he can become friends with them too and then heā€™ll have nothing to feel jealous about! He outright says when he meets them, ā€œAny friend of [yours] is a friend of mine!ā€ Look at him go. (Arven should take notes on how not to act insecure about oneā€™s best friend having other friends, because damn, Kieranā€™s managing to be more well-adjusted than him now.)
All this is also just a sign that Kieranā€™s hoping to try and make more friends in general. Heā€™s such an introvert that he must have figured thatā€™d be easier for him to do with people for whom he has a mutual friend to get to know them through. Plus, if theyā€™re your friends, then he already has a guarantee that theyā€™ll be good and nice people. Way more manageable for him than trying to approach complete randos.
And really, itā€™s such a huge remarkable thing for Kieran that he is trying to make friends now. Friends, plural! This is the kid who used to be so lonely and shunned by others that his big dream was to one day be like the ogre who, according to him, doesnā€™t care that itā€™s all alone. And maybe then, if he managed that, heā€™d be able to befriend the ogre ā€“ just that one other person who is also alone and outcast. It never even crossed his mind to try and imagine that one day he could be confident and worthy enough to justā€¦ have some human friends. That wasnā€™t even an option in his head ā€“ it was ā€œlearn to not care that heā€™s aloneā€ or nothing.
And yet look at Kieran now, actively reaching out to try and make new friends! I am so proud of him.
Learning to ask for help
Soon after you meet up with Kieran, it becomes apparent that something is Very Wrong with his sister. According to Kieranā€™s account, it was shortly after he sent you the letter that Carmine became possessed, so itā€™s not that the letter was secretly a call for help in which he couldnā€™t bring himself to admit the actual problem.
And even now that youā€™re hereā€¦ Kieran wasnā€™t going to tell you about this problem at all until Carmine happened to wander up and start mochi-dancing in front of you. He tries to play the whole thing off like itā€™s totally normal and sheā€™s definitely justā€¦ excited to see you???, even though he has to know that doesnā€™t make any sense at all. On some level this is just because itā€™s really scary to admit to himself that something is very wrong and he doesnā€™t have a clue how to fix it. But itā€™s also becauseā€¦ he still doesnā€™t feel like he has the right to ask you and your friends for help.
This is one of the ways in which Kieranā€™s issues and low sense of self-worth from before are still lingering and have not just been magically, instantly fixed. While he may be making a conscious effort to fight through his insecurities to try and make more friends, he hasnā€™t started consciously tackling everything that was holding him back just yet. It seems like he imagines that asking your friends for help, these people heā€™s only just met, would just make him a burden on them and maybe spoil any chance he had of actually becoming their friend himself. (Although, even if youā€™d come to visit him alone, I suspect heā€™d still struggle to ask even just you for help, simply due to his old ingrained mindset that heā€™s not worthy enough to deserve it.)
Happily for Kieran, your friends are all good people who instantly unthinkingly offer to help without him even needing to ask them! Kieranā€™s sheer surprise and gratitude when this happens is so telling about his insecurities for why he didnā€™t feel he could ask, but itā€™s also lovely to see him starting to realise that his instinctive way of thinking about this is mistaken. Welcome to having friends, Kieran, this is how it works actually! Most people are good and will be happy to help out a friend in need! Itā€™s okay to need help sometimes!
Thereā€™s another very innocuous line that I find interestingly telling about Kieranā€™s mindset regarding this. When youā€™re all at the community centre wanting to use the TV, Kieran laments that itā€™s stuck playing the tourism ad because the caretaker hid the remote, so Arven immediately suggests you all look for it. And Kieran reacts, in surprise, ā€œWhy didnā€™t I think of that?ā€ It reads as largely rhetorical, butā€¦ itā€™s a good question.
Why didnā€™t Kieran think of just trying to find the remote? Because heā€™s spent so long stuck in a mindset where, if things are bad for him, itā€™s just what he deserves for being weak and thereā€™s nothing he can do about it. His response to his problems during the main storyline was to completely separately fixate on making himself Stronger so that, in theory, problems would just stop happening to him entirely. It never occurred to him to try and just face and deal with his problems directly ā€“ at least not until the climactic battle with Terapagos, which was the first time he ever found the courage to take such an approach ā€“ so the notion to do so still isnā€™t quite habitual in his mind just yet.
Hopefully Kieran asking why he didnā€™t think of that wasnā€™t quite so rhetorical, and he was reflecting on it himself a little when he said it. He ought to realise that actually, taking action to directly solve his problems is a good thing and something he should strive to do more! He has already begun to do so in some ways by reaching out in an attempt to make more friends, at least.
Solving the problem
Kieran sure does get a lot more practice at Directly Solving Problems thanks to the events that go on to occur that night, doesnā€™t he. I love that the epilogueā€™s plot, while ostensibly just there to give players an opportunity to catch Pecharunt, is also a narrative that exists to let Kieran get to be a hero alongside you.
Itā€™s somewhat low key, but Kieran definitely gets pretty freaked out about everything thatā€™s happening. Which is really perfectly reasonable ā€“ though the effects of the possession are incredibly silly, itā€™s still got to be genuinely frightening to see people he knows getting controlled against their will by some unknown force, especially when this includes his own family. (One detail I love is that the game uses that lack of a highlight in his eyes during certain lines to communicate the fear he's feeling and trying not-so-successfully to hide; itā€™s a small thing, but it works so well.)
Once youā€™ve fought off his possessed grandparents, Kieran starts to panic, convinced itā€™s only a matter of time before it gets him (even though the evidence of how exactly the possession occurs is right there if heā€™d just stop to think about it for a moment). On some level, he must still have this sense that, if it can get all these people he looks up to, surely itā€™ll get him too whoā€™s so much weaker than them. His inferiority complex is still there and affecting him, especially in this stressful situation.
Good thing Kieran has you by his side, the strongest coolest friend ever whom he knows he can rely on! If you hadnā€™t been there to reassure him and snap him out of it, he really might have lost himself to his panic. Or he might have just not even tried to battle the possessed people and do something about all of this in the first place ā€“ see the earlier point about how him facing problems directly is still not instinctive to him. Heā€™s able to do so here, but a lot of that is probably thanks to being able to follow your lead. Still, this is bound to help him get better at doing so on his own in future!
Kieranā€™s also still a bit too liable to feel like things are his fault even when they really arenā€™t. He blames himself for not warning Arven and Penny about the mochi in time, even though he was literally about to do so when Pecharunt showed up and sniped mochi directly into their mouths. That canā€™t be called Kieranā€™s fault at all! He tried! (And, hey, itā€™s not like you made any attempt to warn them either.) But he still feels responsible for it anyway.
And heā€™s also still rather defeatist when it comes to facing Strong Opponents in battle. Kieran couldnā€™t defeat Nemona earlier in the day, so when it comes down to facing off against her in order to get to Pecharunt, he just feels like he canā€™t do it, end of. Really, thatā€™s not necessarily the case ā€“ since this is an emergency and not a friendly battle for sport, thereā€™s no reason you have to beat Nemona in a fair 6-on-6. Anything to get past her will do; the two of you could have taken her on in a 12-on-6 double battle, perhaps! Kieran did not need to momentarily feel useless in this situation, but he did, because not being able to win against someone still equates in his mind to being No Good At All. Kieran, nooo.
Happily, the narrative provides Kieran with something else to do with himself while you fight Nemona so that he is very decidedly not useless in the slightest ā€“ fighting off the entire townā€™s worth of people behind you??? That is equally as necessary as taking down Nemona, something without which youā€™d never have managed to get to Pecharunt, and it must take some incredible battling skill to be able to hold off that many opponents at once. Like, dang, Kieran. I really hope heā€™s able to reflect on this in the aftermath and realise how incredibly strong and cool that was of him, because it was.
(He was holding his own one-against-many, just like he always admired Ogerpon for doing!)
Kieranā€™s fear and pessimism also show through just a tiny bit as youā€™re fighting Pecharunt at the end, when he reacts to the fact that you were able to damage it. Apparently he was afraid that this thing would be completely invulnerable and it just wouldnā€™t be possible for even someone as amazing as you to beat it and stop the curse. Yikes, that must have been a scary thought. But still, it all worked out in the end! Kieranā€™s learning that even when things are scary and feel overwhelming, by facing up to them and doing his best, itā€™ll usually turn out okay! Especially because heā€™s not alone and has friends by his side to support him now.
And, hey, one way or another, it seems like the events of the epilogue did help give Kieran that last little push he needed to decide to go back to Blueberry Academy! I imagine he was already thinking about doing so ā€“ he is actually a very stubborn and determined person at his core, so I donā€™t think he could ever have been considering just giving up on it ā€“ but all of this probably helped give him the confidence to make that leap. The thought of apologising to everyone for how he acted must still be incredibly daunting ā€“ but, heā€™s begun to realise that he can face scary things!
His old Kitakami team
During the epilogueā€™s battles, I was absolutely delighted to see Kieran send out Poliwrath, one of the PokĆ©mon he used in Teal Mask but not in Indigo Disk ā€“ because this is proof that heā€™s been reconnecting with the PokĆ©mon friends he left behind back then! As it turns out, the rest of his team for these multi battles is the same as his Champion team, with only the Polis switched, but even so, Poliwrathā€™s presence is enough to be a promising sign for all of his old PokĆ©mon friends.
And this gets further confirmed by his dialogue with Arven in the clubroom! Arven asks Kieran which of his PokĆ©mon heā€™s closest to, and he mentions his Hydrapple (which has been with him since it was an Applin), his Poliwrath and Politoed, his Yanmega, and his Furret! This accounts for all of the PokĆ©mon Kieran had in his Teal Mask battles up to the third one, after which he started to fixate hard on getting stronger to prove himself to you, so these are likely all of the PokĆ©mon that were friends of his from the start. And he still considers them friends now, which means he reconnected with them all and apologised as necessary for any leaving them behind/thinking they were weak/etc that he might have done! Yes good, Justice For Furret was had, I could not be happier.
(Okay, we never saw the second Poli back then, but the way he talks about both Polis together suggests theyā€™re a pair, so I imagine they were both his friends back then, too. He also never used Applin against you before evolving it into Dipplin ā€“ which is fair, Applin is very not good in battles ā€“ so the lack of us seeing another Poliwag/whirl is probably because he felt he needed to use a diverse team that didnā€™t have two of the same species. He doesnā€™t have to battle with all of his PokĆ©mon for them to still be his friends, after all! He still doesnā€™t battle with most of them now in the clubroom battles either, which use his same Champion team, but that doesnā€™t stop them from being his precious pals!)
(On the other hand, since there is no sign nor mention of them in the postgame, I suspect that, like Cramorant before them, his Gliscor, Shiftry and Probopass from the final Kitakami battle got released. Kieran would have only had them for like a day or two during the events of Teal Mask, since he only caught them after he fixated on getting stronger, so I doubt heā€™d grown very attached to them during that time. Still, thatā€™s okay, because hey, he did make them stronger, which is probably all they ever expected from him when they joined his team.)
Nemona is Good
One extremely delightful aspect of the epilogue and beyond is Kieranā€™s interactions with Nemona. It turns out that her outlook on battling is exactly the kind of thing Kieran needed to help regain a healthier view on it himself!
His feelings about his own battling skills are still very all-or-nothing at the beginning of the epilogue. When Nemona excitedly declares that sheā€™s heard heā€™s really good at battling, Kieranā€™s pretty dismissive of that idea. He couldnā€™t beat you, therefore that means heā€™s Not Good At It, right? (Kieran, no.) He also says that Nemona ā€œdestroyedā€ him once theyā€™ve battled ā€“ but based on the fact that she has nothing but praise for how good he is, I very strongly suspect that he actually gave her a really tough fight, and he only framed it that negatively because losing at all still makes his inferiority complex blow things way out of proportion.
Happily, delightfully, Nemona tells Kieran exactly what he has always needed to hear this whole time, which is that it shouldnā€™t matter whether you win or lose, because battles are fun either way! And with a moment to reflect on that, he agreesā€¦ yeah, they are, he had a lot of fun!
Weā€™d heard from Drayton that Kieran was always a kid whoā€™d deeply enjoyed battling, from the very beginning. But it seems that somewhere along the way heā€™d stopped loving it so much, at least when heā€™s the one battling - probably because heā€™d often lose, which would trigger his inferiority complex and make him feel bad. We only saw a small glimpse of his passion for battling ourselves at the beginning of Teal Mask, mostly when he watched you battle his sister, and a little bit in his own early battles with you, but he still felt bad over losing, poor kid.
But with Nemonaā€™s help, Kieranā€™s been able to remember just how much he always loved battling and can just enjoy himself with it again! In your clubroom battles with him, he has a line just before he Terastallises where he says ā€œthese feelings never changeā€ ā€“ and though he doesnā€™t specify what feelings heā€™s talking about, the one thing about Kieran that has never changed this entire time, even if he sort of lost sight of it for a while along the way, is the thrill he gets from battling! He also says in another line that heā€™s ā€œhaving a blastā€ ā€“ which is phrasing that Nemona uses that Kieran never has before, so apparently he picked that up from her? Aww. I am so glad he could meet her; she is exactly the breath of battle-loving fresh air he always needed.
Kieranā€™s clubroom conversation with Nemona is also very good and helps him let go of his all-or-nothing mindset a little more. Nemona praises him for how quickly he climbed the ranks of the BB League, which he insists is meaningless because he pushed himself unhealthily hard and then still couldnā€™t beat you in the end. But Nemona helps him reframe it and think of it as: he was incredibly dedicated, and it must mean he really loves PokĆ©mon and battling, which is true! This has to help Kieran view his training arc in a more positive light instead of focusing on the negative aspects like his toxic obsession and lack of self-care. Hopefully if/when he starts training hard again, heā€™ll be able to feel better about it and not associate it with all the bad things, thanks to Nemona! (But also, Kieran, please remember to not neglect self-care again, that was bad. I imagine he has indeed got the message about that, since the way he talks about that aspect in this conversation seems tinged with regret.)
Carmine is Trying
Another thing we see in the epilogue ā€“ admittedly only a small glimpse near the end, but itā€™s something ā€“ is that Kieranā€™s relationship with his sister seems to have gotten a little bit healthier? They each make equal-opportunity Sibling Banter jabs at each other, and Kieran doesnā€™t slump and shrink and look so defeated when she bites back against one of his. Thereā€™s probably still some ways to go here on their dynamic becoming completely truly healthy, but itā€™s definitely progress from before, which is good to see.
I think Carmine really must have reflected on her role in Kieranā€™s breakdown and is trying in her own fumbling awkward way to do better by him now. A delightful sign of this is one of her scenes in the clubroom, in which she resolves to be less protective of Kieran, even if itā€™ll make her lonelier without him around as much. Thatā€™s exactly what she needs to do! After all, this whole thing started because Carmine couldnā€™t bear to let her brother endure even the tiniest amount of badfeels that would have come from learning he happened to miss out on meeting the ogre. Carmine has realised on some level that she needs to have more faith in Kieran and his ability to endure and get through stuff on his own, rather than trying too hard to protect him from everything ever, which just results in coddling him and stifling his possibility for growth. She still does want to look out for him from a distance and be able to help if he really does need it, but sheā€™s trying not to overdo it any more. Yes good, I am proud of her too.
Reconciling with his schoolmates
I said already in the Indigo Disk post that itā€™s incredibly brave of Kieran to resolve to apologise to everyone he hurt and make amends, and this is still true. That has to have been so scary, but he went and did it anyway! It seems he even apologised to the people who cared about him, such as his sister and Amarys, for worrying them with his behaviour ā€“ which also means he has managed to comprehend the fact that people cared about him, even back then when he was at his most unlikeable.
And by the sounds of what he says in his clubroom scenes, most people took his apologies well and are talking to him like normal now, which has to have been such a relief. It means a lot that Kieran wasnā€™t expecting anything of the sort and apologised anyway despite expecting backlash, simply because it was the right thing to do ā€“ but hey, most people are nice and can probably tell he was decidedly Not Himself during that time and are willing to put the past behind them! Social interaction isnā€™t quite as scary as heā€™d used to think, it turns out!
Even then, some things are still a bit weird, and with how far-reaching his impact as Champion was, Kieranā€™s bound to keep having to deal with this for a while. There must keep being more people he was a jerk to that he still hasnā€™t apologised to yet, people being intimidated by him because they donā€™t realise heā€™s changed, constant reminders of some of the hurtful things he said and did back then. Making amends is going to be a pretty long-term thing, but Kieran is putting in the effort to do so all the same, because itā€™s the right thing to do, and he is so brave.
Someone who is making this harder than it needs to be is Drayton, because of freaking course he is. He still insists on rubbing in the ā€œex-Champā€ thing, even though Kieran has made it clear he does not appreciate being called that (of course, he no longer minds that heā€™s not Champion any more, but the fact that Drayton insists on constantly reminding him of his past self has to sting). On the one hand, Drayton is still concerned about Kieran in his own way, because he does effectively ask if Kieranā€™s eating better meals now, but on the other hand their entire clubroom interaction features him deliberately dodging Kieranā€™s genuine attempts to just engage with him in an effort to make amends, and, geez. This is exactly what he wanted from Kieran all along, and yet he is somehow still not satisfied. Seriously, Drayton.
At least Drayton is the only one of the Elite Four to be like this, and the others seem to be on good terms with Kieran now! Look at Lacey insisting that the past is in the past when Kieran acts confused that sheā€™d want to help him after he was such a jerk to her. (Someone needs to take notes there, Drayton.) And it seems like Kieranā€™s got another good friend in Crispin, whoā€™s in the same class as him! Our boy is making so many new friends and it is wonderful.
Of course, his insecurities are still around, and heā€™s still a little too liable to assume heā€™s doing something Wrong in social situations, as we see in a couple of his clubroom interactions. That one with Arven about his PokĆ©mon is an example, as Arven phrased things as if he expected Kieran to have just one single closest PokĆ©mon buddy, and Kieran seemed to feel bad that he actually had multiple candidates and couldnā€™t pick ā€“ but happily, Arven reassured him that itā€™s cool to not be able to choose, too! And in Kieranā€™s interaction with Crispin, he reflexively apologises for not having watched the latest episode of a show, but Crispin calls him out on the apology, and Kieran is able to question himself as to why he apologised and conclude that he didnā€™t need to, because itā€™s not like Crispinā€™s going to mind.
He is learning! He does not need to feel like he has to perfectly match his conversation partnerā€™s expectations in order to be their friend! Kieranā€™s approach to his own issues has become so healthy and filled with self-reflection and growth, and I am so proud of him.
Friendship with you
Kieran is also able to be a whole lot healthier about his friendship with you, now that youā€™re properly friends again after everything! Possibly my favourite completely innocuous line in the epilogue is when he casually mentions that you and he became friends during the school trip to Kitakami. This is actually huge, because Kieran had spent so long utterly convinced that you couldnā€™t possibly have meant it when you called him a friend back then, not after the lie and all of his issues about being too weak to deserve it. But now, heā€™s been able to reflect on that and realiseā€¦ of course you meant it. Of course you always wanted to be his friend, right from the very beginning! It wasnā€™t on purpose of you that he got left out of meeting Ogerpon at all, because youā€™re a good person and you wouldnā€™t do something like that, and he never actually deserved that after all.
(Perhaps sometime during his break, he had a proper talk with his sister about what happened and why she lied, and Carmine finally got to fully express that you and she never meant to hurt him and shun him with that.)
Kieran is still not over his idolisation of you, mind you. He reacts to you being the one to find the TV remote of all completely mundane things with ā€œWowzers! ā€˜Course you found it first!ā€ ā€“ which, really isnā€™t a wowzers or an of course? Your magical protagonist powers do not and should not extend to this, and yet they still do in Kieranā€™s head. But even though he still views you this way, Kieran is so much healthier about it now. Heā€™s no longer bitter and jealous and beating himself up for not being as perfect as he thinks you are, since nobody is (not even you, not really) ā€“ instead, heā€™s just so incredibly thrilled that he actually gets to be friends with someone so cool!
I really love that the devs went and gave Kieran a new losing animation for his clubroom battles, too. His previous ones always had him being varying levels of upset about losing, but not any more! He just stares in wide-eyed awe at your amazingness, and then breaks into a big smile and thanks you for the battle, because he still had great fun even though he lost! And heā€™s able to freely admit that he looks up to you because youā€™re so strong, or, in an optional line in the epilogue, he admits that heā€™s jealous that your friends are all really good people. He still has those feelings, but heā€™s able to healthily express them now without letting them twist him into something harmful.
It seems like heā€™s still a little insecure about if he deserves to be friends with you, though, based on a few small things. When he asks you for a trade in the clubroom, he appears hesitant to ask, as if heā€™s not sure he has the right to, and if you say no ā€“ even though thereā€™s every chance this is just because you want some time to decide on an appropriately special PokĆ©mon to give him ā€“ he slumps, probably having had his sensitivity to rejection triggered. And even once youā€™ve traded, he can later ask if youā€™re absolutely sure he can really keep the PokĆ©mon you traded him, because he canā€™t quite believe he could get to have such a cool gift from you of all people. Aww, Kieran. Hopefully his hypothetical future interactions with you will help squash this insecurity of his further, because he deserves to feel comfortable in his friendship with his best friend!!!
Ogerpon
Another seemingly-innocuous but extremely good line in the clubroom is that Kieran can ask you if Ogerponā€™s doing well and say that he thinks sheā€™ll be pretty happy with you. He says this in a completely casual way, with no hint of bitterness ā€“ which tells us that heā€™s no longer jealous that you caught Ogerpon! It makes sense that he wouldnā€™t be, because he doesnā€™t need her acknowledgement any more like he used to think he did in order to feel worth something. Heā€™s already got acknowledgement and self-worth and happiness now for so many other reasons, after all! So he can just be selflessly happy for Ogerpon that sheā€™s found a trainer she can feel safe and happy with too, without being irrationally preoccupied over what she thinks of him.
It is interesting to see in this dialogue that Kieran initially calls her ā€œthe ogreā€ before correcting himself to ā€œOgerponā€ ā€“ apparently, heā€™s only quite recently made an effort to shift what he calls her in his head. Itā€™s true that in his reaction to her in the Champion battle, he did indeed just call her ā€œthe ogreā€. Itā€™d make sense that he didnā€™t actually work to shift his mental idea of what to call her during his Indigo Disk arc, despite knowing her species name, because the name ā€œOgerponā€ likely brought back too many painful reminders of everything that happened in Kitakami. It was probably easier for him to just stick with ā€œthe ogreā€ and try to forget anything had changed. But heā€™s okay with what happened now!
And maybe Kieran trying to make a habit of using her name now is a sign that heā€™s started to realise that Ogerpon is her own individual whoā€™s not quite the same as the mental image he always had of what ā€œthe ogreā€ was like? Maybe. Itā€™s hard to be sure. Unfortunately the epilogue/postgame canā€™t do much with Ogerpon because itā€™s always optional for her to be on your team or even in your game at all (since you could in theory have released her or traded her away). But we can at least hypothetically imagine that in Kieranā€™s continued interactions with you, heā€™ll get the chance to hang out with Ogerpon a little and come to understand her better. It certainly seems now that heā€™d be able to hang out with both you and her without feeling uncomfortably jealous, which is a good start! (And Terapagos is on the list of ā€˜peopleā€™ he owes an apology to, so letā€™s imagine he gets a chance to do that, too.)
Moving forward
The ā€œclimaxā€, such as there is one, of Kieranā€™s mini-arc of scenes in the clubroom is him excitedly telling you that heā€™s had the BB League drop him from their rankings. Although your character seems a little bewildered by it (they are still a bit of a social dumbass), this is in fact an extremely good thing for Kieran! Heā€™s taking a step back from the competitive side of things for the sake of his mental health, so that he can untangle himself from the toxically-obsessive mindset that he was in back when he was only focused on winning! Look at Kieran doing all this good self-reflection and self-care, it is so lovely to see. He doesnā€™t even seem to view this as any sign of him failing, either ā€“ heā€™s just comfortably acknowledging that he needs to do this for now for his own sake and thereā€™s no shame in that.
Kieran seems pretty sure that he is going to want to get back into competing once heā€™s cleared his head a bit, but heā€™s already so much more casual and healthy about it! He says heā€™s going to shoot for the Champion title again, and even if you respond with a friendly taunt of ā€œYou still wonā€™t beat me!ā€, he takes it so well. Heā€™s genuinely okay now with the thought that he might never quite be good enough to beat you ā€“ he just wants to have fun trying. Look at how far heā€™s come!
In the meantime, while he sorts his head out, he just wants to spend time with his PokƩmon (who mean a lot to him as far more than just sources of battling strength!) and his human friends (whom he has so many of now???) and figure out what he really wants to do with himself from here. Good for him!
Kieranā€™s still just a kid, and seeing him already learn how to grow from his mistakes and face up to his lingering issues and be just so emotionally healthy about things now is such a promising sign for wherever heā€™s going to end up in future. I love that the epilogue and these postgame clubroom scenes put so much effort into showing us this about Kieran now, reassuring us that he really is going to be okay. I truly could not be more proud of or happy for my boy.
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couldnt-think-of-a-funny-name Ā· 7 months ago
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okay so TENATIVE predictions for season 4: it looks like they're going to be playing into the mandela effect. half the universe remembers the umbrella timeline, half the universe remembers the sparrow timeline, and the ONLY thing both groups remember is Ben.
I've been praying since day one that Ben will have memories of both lives in his head, and judging by the fact he appears to be Going Through It in the trailer I assume that'll be the case.
since Ben is at the center of the conspiracy, I almost want to say he's who they're supposed to be rescuing? like, maybe instead of One Ben Two Lives, it's Two Bens One Cup. I don't think they'll do that, though. They're probably trying to rescue Jennifer. HOWEVER I do think it would be really sexy if Nick Offerman and Megahn Mullally weren't playing a couple but were instead playing the same person from different universes (hence being named Gene and Jean), and they somehow found each other and that's why they're leading this conspiracy.
Mystery Jennifer is stressing me out. obviously by the glowing she's got something going on. I'm thinking there's a possibility she was erased from the family's memories after Ben's death- the trailer makes it seem like Reginald made Allison rumor them after the fact. there's probably a decent chance they all knew her, she lost control of her powers, Ben died, Reginald locked her away and erased all traces of her. maybe in the sparrow timeline she died instead, or maybe she was always locked up there and Ben was drawing her from memories that were already starting to leak through from the og timeline, but either way probably in trying to uncover how Ben died they figure out they have to save her. idk!
also, six is like. a random number of years I'm sorry. why wouldn't they just say five years later? maybe another thing to do with Ben bc umbrella Ben was number six? I'm probably reading too much into that one.
I'm truly SO scared they're gonna reveal none of them have spoken during the time skip. Five doesn't deserve that šŸ˜­šŸ˜­. in my perfect world him and Viktor have an apartment but the show writers 100% forgot they said those two were best friends when they were kids judging by the rest of the series rip. when the Gene and Jean characters were first announced I thought maybe Five got stuck in the foster system and they took him in, and that could still be the case (maybe that's how they noticed the universe is a lie in the first place, the boy loves to Yap) but I think it's less likely now idk
if Diego and Lila's daughter isn't named Gracie....what was this all for. what was this all building towards. what's the point. LMFAO I know the popular fanon one is Anita (personally in my head I've been calling her Poppy and I Don't Know Why) but like Gracie is the only name that makes sense, Diego is Too Much of a mama's boy to accept anything else.
this one isn't a prediction it's just a demand- I DEMAND a white violin icon moment set to extraordinary girl by green day. they can 100% get away with just doing an instrumental version since Viktor's not a girl lmfao, but it literally Haunts Me that they didn't do that at the end of season 1 (or at LEAST play the opening of letterbomb when Viktor was in the basement hallucinating) so they NEED to make up for that. it's the last season. play the fucking song oh my God.
there might be too much going on to bring the sparrows back in any meaningful way, but like! I liked them! I especially wanted more Marcus last season, he and Viktor had good chemistry. and Fei was an icon. Why Are We Hiding Sloane Tho. I considered maybe they were rescuing Sloane, but like, Luther just seems a little too happy for that to be the case? that's why I also think Diego and Lila's kid isn't the one being rescued like I saw some theories suggest- Diego is so excited and Lila's grinning in the car scene. can't imagine their 5 year old is missing.
Five is absolutely gonna die. like I'm sorry since episode 1 there's never been a believable outcome where everything's okay and he lives. HOWEVER I think there's a very strong chance the series could end with the timeline is finally saved and set right, and grandpa Five died- but then right at the end 2002 baby Five shows up and gets stuck in the safe timeline. Five has been a walking paradox the whole series. it'd be bittersweet to lose the Five we love, but know that he's still technically getting a happy ending because he doesn't have to live through the apocalypse and become an assassin. I think that's like the best outcome we can hope for.
I think it'd be EXTREMELY funny if Reginald is just super nice now that Abigail is back. like the entire excuse for 30 years of insane behavior was that he missed his wife. bestie there are better ways to cope than abusing superpowered kids </3 but lmao I'm intrigued by him and Viktor being together in both trailers! I've always gotten the feeling that Viktor is one of his 'favorites' (to the best of his ability anyway), and from the brief childhood flashbacks we see that he had baby V acting as an assistant for him, so I'd like to see their relationship expanded a little bit. honestly I just want a lot about Reginald cleared up- he does give off the distinct impression that he actually cares about his kids, even though he's abusive. I'm assuming the explanation will be something along the lines of 'well I always planned to bring you back and safe in the New Universe', that he was approaching it as a 'they have to suffer now to save the universe, and then they can be happy' mindset. that would be interesting. but I'm also a little worried they'll wave his behavior off with 'oh he's an alien he just can't understand how he affected them', which, would suck writing-wise.
I'm worried about Allison- I'm sure they're gonna want her to have a full redemption by the end of the series, but what she did to Viktor and Luther last season...like I just don't know that they'll pull off a meaningful redemption, to where it's believable that they forgive her (other than the fact they're both softies and push overs). not with the shorter season, anyway! I *think* the person Viktor was punching in the trailer was Allison. but I'm worried that instead of actually fixing the issue the writers will just have her do a sacrifice play. especially since, bless her, she's the least sacrificial person in the family, so I could see the argument that it'll be a meaningful character growth moment, but like...if they don't actually have her believably fix her mistakes it'll just feel like a lazy writing move. also, I love her and I don't want any of them to die. as I said, the only death I'm willing to accept is Five's WITH the promise of baby Five getting a happy ending.
I want the Handler to come back, even if it's only for one scene. sorry, I think her absence was one of the low points of season 3.
I think if Grace appears in this season at all it won't be the robot version we're used to, but an older version of her human self that Diego met in the 60s. could be very bittersweet. I just don't think the robot exists in this universe bc honestly if my husband revived me from the dead but then I found out he's been living without me just fine, but made a robot copy of a pretty young fling he had after my death and seemingly can't live without her. I'd be a little pissed! sorry! lmao that said I also have personally been headcannoning that Grace is actually a cyborg and not a robot this whole time, the kids just don't know because of all the insane protocols Reginald set up, so if they do something with that instead I'll be really excited.
Diego and Lila's daughter deserves powers<3
alright I think that's all I got for now. but I wanna hear more theories!!
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aristaspark Ā· 2 months ago
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Do you believe Brooklynn has feelings for Darius?
Hellooo, I really don't think she does! (who's surprised honestly?) No but fr I need to stop writing essays on this topic šŸ˜‚ Thank god i'm an insomniac.
I know people are convinced she loves him back because she didn't *actually* reject him and instead said "I'm not really ready for..." but if you look closely at the sequence, the way they animated her body language and facial expressions is much more telling than her words (at least to me), and it led to me agreeing with Darius' recollection of this moment (she tried to be nice about it but it was clear she didn't feel the same).
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Like, I don't see how anyone can see that and think she's in love šŸ˜­ THAT'S the face of love according to this fandom???? She looks horrified at the mere possibility that Darius could feel anything other than friendship towards her.
Also important to note that she started saying "I just don't think..." before changing her choice of words, and to me it's a clear sign she was about to reject him more directly, but couldn't do it, so instead she went for an answer that would spare his feelings.
And when you add the shot of her putting distance btw them by moving her feet away from him as if she suddenly felt uncomfortable with their proximity... Why would you physically recoil as the person you *supposedly* love confesses to you?
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To me if the writers had wanted to indicate that deep down she wanted to be with Darius, but couldn't in this moment because it was too soon (as she said)/for Kenji's sake, they would have had her say the same thing, but have her body instinctively move closer to him as a physical manifestation of her "true feelings" (...which it is, but it moved away, you do the math).
Also the fact that right after that she still asks him to meet with her for her investigation. I don't know, I think that if she felt anything towards him she would have been as embarrassed/uncomfortable as him, but here she brushed it off as if it was nothing. She had no problem with the idea that she would see him later that day, as if to her there was nothing more to be said/this "incident"/chapter was closed.
I already talked about the look during the plane scene so I'm not going to do it again.
From a story standpoint, it would be really questionnable writing if she suddenly fell in love with someone a week after her partner of 6 years dumped her.
And I absolutely cannot see them throw the "she was in love with Darius while dating Kenji" excuse at us, like, that's straight up character assassination. I know they made Brook morally grey but you can't come back from that šŸ˜‚. Also, it would go against what they showed in the two first seasons because she looked really in love with Kenji (how devastated she looked when he broke up, how happy they were on the video on her phone, how physically affectionate she was with him in episode 3, the picture of them in her secret apartment...).
And this.
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I didn't think my biggest evidence for Kenlynn would be some scribbles on a notebook, but oh well šŸ˜‚
Like, one simply cannot explain this away. This was her attempt at telling them she was alive, and she only wrote to Kenji, not Darius. And it's not like she had to censore herself or to, idk, force herself to write to Kenji to keep up the appearances because those are only, as I said, scribbles on a paper, her raw feelings and thoughts, something she was never going to send anyway.
Like, if they want to make dinostar canon, why post that? Why not take this opportunity to add content/substance to the ship they *supposedly* want to make endgame? Having that letter addressed to Kenji only serves the purpose of showing us that Kenji's the one on her mind, because otherwise that was unnecessary. They could have had her write to the whole camp fam, but instead they decided to show us that she wanted to tell Kenji she was alive above everyone else, including Darius, the one who confessed to her right before her "death" and who Brooklynn most likely knew felt incredibly guilty for not showing up/for her death (Ronnie probably told her).
If she was in love with Darius she would have adressed the "letter" to him, I can't see any argument against that. Or maybe it's more that if she wasn't in love with Kenji anymore, she wouldn't have written to him, but to all of them.
Honestly, the most I can see them giving Dinostar as far as Brooklynn's feelings for Darius go is to have her admit that she used to have a little crush on him when they were on Nublar but that it completely disappeared once she started getting coser to Kenji. I have nothing to back up this theory, but I don't know, I thought that much wouldn't be too far fetched.
(oh, and I almost forgot but this goes without saying... pretty sure her getting attacked, alone at night, mauled by a dino and loosing her arm partly because he set her up would have killed any potential blooming feeling in her).
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bitterrobin Ā· 10 months ago
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Let's talk about Damian, the League of Assassins and the al Ghuls. A.K.A things to keep in mind when writing them.
You don't have to force yourself to comply with this, but there are some important facts you need to know and things you absolutely SHOULDNT do (be racist or orientalist).
Read on for a long post about Damian and the League and his family - giving context, some research and comic storylines, and characterization.
There are basically three different backstories for Damian.
Batman: Son of the Demon - technically, this baby is unnamed and not completely Damian. But the writer of that comic does still (sorta) resent that Morrison was able to write Damian in current comics while he wasn't. This baby was given up for adoption by Talia and we never see him again. Fans vastly prefer taking this backstory (me) because Damian is NOT a product of rape and Talia is written like herself.
Morrison's canon/the 2006-2011 era - the Damian we know and love. Kinda-sorta. So, in Morrison's whole run - Damian was raised in the League and trained as an assassin. One key point here: Talia DID NOT raise him. Morrison instead wrote that Talia only first met Damian when he was eight years old, and she was out of his life before then. Morrison also completely fucked up by writing Talia as a rapist who assaulted Bruce in Son of the Demon rather than the actual consensual sex they had. While it gave us the character, its not the complete version that many like. (and also its pretty racist)
Tomasi/Gleason's canon in Batman and Robin/Robin: Son of Batman - almost the same Damian as before, with one key difference: we actually get see what his training and life in the League entailed. Additionally, Talia in this version raised him from an infant, thus making his connection with her much stronger. A win/lose situation there. Talia would never raise her son under her father, but we do get a stronger mother/child bond than we ever had before. (Still fucked, but insanely better than Morrison).
From these three versions, only two utilize the League of Assassins in Damian's origin.
The League, then, is very important to his character. By extension, so should Ras right?
In Morrison's canon/the 2009 era - no, apparently. As per Resurrection of Ras al Ghul, he only sees Damian as a vessel for his soul. To stay eternally youthful and does not care for him as grandson in any way. This...is a lot. You could use it for angst. But it's also not in line with Ras' characterization. You could argue that this version of him and Damian have never interacted before but still.
Here's what you need to know about Ras al Ghul. He was and still is: a doctor. A man of science. He loves and wants to save the beauty of nature. Ras is an eco-terrorist. Not a generic assassin. He believes in the life of nature, animals, but he despises humanity for what they've done to the world. He has seen it all, and he canonically laments of loss of endangered species, of ruined habitats and long-gone animals he once cared for.
He also loves his family. A lot. The entire reason he becomes the Demon's Head is because his first wife, Sora, was killed by someone he treated, and then he was imprisoned and forced to co-habit with her corpse. Of course, over the centuries he's been alive, she's become only one reason for his existence, as we see how jaded he sees humanity and how little he trusts people. He latches onto Talia, his surviving daughter, because he loves her and he grieves her mother. He degrades Dusan, the White Ghost, because he cannot bring himself to love him. He was murdered by Nyssa because she felt betrayed and began to despise his love (and inaction). In current canon, Damian is his grandson and he loves him, despite everything.
Of course, it doesn't justify what he's done. But it's a crucial part of his character: the twisted love that cages. The love that binds and says it knows best for you - "I only want the best for you, I want to protect you, I want the world for you. Can't you see that? I can bring you something better." The fact that he's an ancient immortal only adds to the superiority he believes he's giving to his family.
We return to the League of Assassins. SO, the League was canonically created to further his ultimate goal: saving the planet. Again, eco-terrorism. The League exists to cull the human population. Ras believes in utopia, a world without any humans (even himself and his family). Ras is willing to die, eventually, like a really long time from now, if he gets to complete his goal. Thus, the League wholeheartedly believes in him, for the betterment of the world with their savior at the head. Exactly how the League treats their mission and Ras depends on the writer - but it's common to write them as a cult. Almost a religion.
We don't really get a lot about they operate. There are figures like Dr. Darrk and the White Ghost and all the stuff that comes up in Red Robin. We get some interesting ideas and characters in Robin: Son of Batman. But we don't get how the League works. There's no comic that does a step by step breakdown of their finances, operations, assassins, employees, what Ras actually does to lead and impart his vision to his followers.
We go the cult route, then. Here's something that I'm currently exploring and that I think others should too: The League is a global cult that believes in the holiness of death and the end of humanity in order to save nature/the planet. The League is far-reaching. It is eternal. It has existed for centuries, just as long as Ras al Ghul has.
Damian was part of a cult. Depending in your version of events, he was either taken from his adoptive parents or born into the League. Either way, he was indoctrinated. He believes in his grandfather's ideas. His training, canonically, began when he was very young. It was fast paced, trainer after teacher after teacher. He didn't grow attached to them, but he retained the skills. He is raised not just as an assassin. He is raised as an heir. A leader. An overachievement of talent and privileges. He embodies Ras' beliefs.
He is worshipped. A symbol of the cult. A prince. He is dehumanized. He is a figurehead, a piece of Ras that the common folk can touch and see. Damian believes in this superiority, misguidedly thinks they respect him and not the word of Ras. And there begins the struggle.
He grows up arrogant. Manipulated by his loving grandfather into something he really shouldn't be. But there is still Talia.
Either she only met him later in life when he was eight years old, or she was there from the beginning. In both cases, she would NOT stand for her son being treated this way.
Talia is not a completely non-violent character. She has killed before, and does not have the strict rules of Bruce. But she's not an assassin (at least , she didn't used to be). She can cry over a soul lost. She can shoot a gun but with a trembling heart. Talia was raised by her father with affection. She was sheltered, spoiled. She was educated and trained, yes, but she was not made into a weapon. She was taught martial arts for skills, protection, for Ras' paranoid benefit.
She was loved, but Ras has canonically hit her in moments in rage. He has canonically manipulated/threatened her to try and kill Bruce. I fully believe that she would want to protect Damian from as much abuse as possible even if they're both in the League.
You can interpret her split from her father as many things: her love for Bruce, her love for the world, her own love for her father and seeing in horror how twisted he'd become, her need for independence, to be her own woman without Bruce or Ras in her life, an abused child becoming an adult, etc.
Talia also canonically studied medicine (in Cairo). She believes in life. She would impart this onto her son. She wouldn't want him to grow up sheltered as she was, nor would she want him to become a weapon to be wielded. Talia would advocate for him to be taught arts and literature and respect for nature, and to try and give him some sense of normalcy. She was the one who let him keep Goliath. She would never kill Damian's pets (Morrison you have three days what were you thinking?!).
(EDIT: adding some more context to the Talia section of this post!)
After Talia healed Jason using the Pit and sent him to be trained, she left the League in entirety. For several comics, she was entirely independent and drifting - enjoying her life apart from Ras as her own woman.
For a brief moment in comics when Lex Luthor was the US President (yes that happened), he chose Talia to oversee LexCorp. Talia does not like Lex, but she agreed anyway in order to secretly change his company from the inside. While she put on a front to the public and Superman as another cruel businesswoman, in reality she was draining Lex's finances, shifting LexCorp into a more ethical direction, and digging up as much dirt as possible on Lex in order to take him down. She secretly gave Superman information on all of Lex's evil plans as she could, but didn't directly work with him. She wasn't LexCorp CEO for very long, but it was pretty much all she was doing until the events of Death and the Maidens. It can be assumed that while she was a CEO, Damian was being trained in the League in secret.
In Batman: Death and the Maidens, Talia was kidnapped and repeatedly tortured/resurrected in a Lazarus Pit by Nyssa Raatko (her half-sister) in order to brainwash her. She was killed, over and over and over again, then resurrected every single time afterwards in immense pain until she was filled with nothing but primal rage. Nyssa's goal was to use Talia as her own pawn against Ras in a revenge plot. The brainwashing made her a loyal follower of Nyssa, hate Bruce, and made her kill Ras without a second thought. Eventually, they succeeded in taking over the League - leading to the eventual storylines in Robin: One Year Later and Infinite Crisis where Nyssa is shown leading the League (before her unceremonious death). Ras eventually returns in the Batman: Resurrection of Ras al Ghul storyline that precedes Final Crisis/Bruce's death.
Some fans use this Pit event to explain Talia's butchered character in later appearances - making her abusive and cold to Damian and a full villain towards Bruce - as a consequence of this horrific brainwashing. It's definitely a far better explanation for her actions in Batman and Robin (2009) and Batman Incorporated than her sudden heel turn under Morrison. Unless you're completely re-writing her actions in the 2009-2011 era to be more in line with her original characterization, then this explanation is an easy add-in to explain her dynamic with Damian in your fic if you want.
You could take the complicated family dynamics of the al Ghuls and write some seriously heavy stuff on love and abuse and the cycles of trauma and violence. From RĆŗh to Ras down to Talia/Nyssa/Dusan down to Damian and Mara. It's one big circle.
Speaking of which, here's a list of all known al Ghuls for your convenience.
RĆŗh al Ghul - AKA Mother Soul. Ras' mother. She's fairly recent, but I think she's interesting enough to include. Unlike Ras' hard beliefs in science, RĆŗh is very spiritual and a practitioner of magic. Through her, it can be implied that every al Ghul has the possibility of learning magic. She believes in a figure called the Demon. Led the League of Lazarus on Lazarus Island, where she was basically imprisoned for centuries.
Ras al Ghul - real name unknown. The originator.
Sora - his first wife. Deceased. Killed by a raging prince who was healed by the Pit, as Ras did not know what it did back then.
Melisande - his second wife. Talia's mother. Half-Arab, half-Chinese. Deceased. Ras canonically met her at Woodstock (lol). She was murdered by Qayin, the antagonist of Son of the Demon. In some depictions (basically only Morrison) she was revealed to be alive and a fortune teller who hid her identity from Talia. (I think her being dead makes more sense for how Ras treats Talia, and her issues/love for her father).
Nyssa Raatko - I believe she's Ras' oldest child. Technically, she's been dead since Infinite Crisis and has not appeared in comics ever since. Canonically tortured and brainwashed Talia. Led the League for at least a couple months to a year. Half-Russian, part Arab and Chinese. Jewish ?, it's complicated. Canonically survived the Holocaust. Is immortal.
Dusan al Ghul - the first White Ghost. Albino. The forgotten and despised son. Still very loyal to Ras, does not call him father and instead calls him the Demon's Head. Mara's father. Is not immortal.
Talia al Ghul - the younger child. The beloved one. Damian's mother. Is not immortal.
Damian al Ghul-Wayne - you know already.
Mara al Ghul - Dusan's daughter. Damian's cousin. I think they're pretty much the same age. Raised in the League, led the Demon's Fist. Can be assumed to have been trained in the same subjects as Damian at the same time.
Compiling all of this, here's the things to NOT DO when writing the al Ghuls and the League:
Making them animal abusers, encouraging Damian to kill animals or showing him their deaths. The League stands for nature. They would not kill them unless its for food or mercy. It's insanely racist, even, to imply that a group of Arab-based people or Ras or Talia would gleefully brutally murder a puppy in order to teach Damian a "lesson."
Making Ras or Talia comically abusive. Ras would be hard on Damian and manipulate him. He's smart. He knows what he's doing all the time. He'd rather keep Damian's loyalty than turn him against him using physical violence. That doesn't mean he wouldn't ever threaten him, just..idk show some restraint when you write them interacting. On the other hand, Talia WOULD NEVER ABUSE HER SON. You could make an argument for Ras, but Talia would never ever hit her son unless she was forced to.
This is just common sense. DO NOT write the League or al Ghuls as racist, orientalist tropes. Research before you write? Use your brain. Please, I'm begging you. If you think of a concept you think might be problematic, look it up, try and find sources, ask around.
Make Ras weirdly obsessed with/in love with Tim. Seriously. What the fuck. This also weird and racist. I've seen horrendous tik-toks making shitty jokes over this. ITS NOT TRUE. STOP MAKING HIM A PEDO BC YOU THINK ITS FUNNY OR EVEN REMOTELY INTERESTING. Never once has Ras expressed a desire as making Tim "his bride" or some fucked shit like that. I'm going to beat you with hammers.
Having everyone take a dip in the Lazarus Pits/using them extensively to become immortal. As far as I know, only RĆŗh and Ras have used them frequently. Only they are the immortal ones, the ones arguably driven slowly mad by the unknown sciences of the pit. Talia is not immortal, she's not even that old, and she doesn't have the desire to be ageless. She has to be at least near Bruce's age, maybe younger than him depending on the timeline/your interpretation. Damian did not ever become exposed to the Pits until after he was killed in Batman Inc, and even then- he was NOT resurrected by it. (Actually I don't think he's ever been put into one.)
Having Talia hate Bruce. Like, No? Currently, they have more of a "we are Divorced but still care another but also we don't agree" dynamic. But they were once really in love, star-crossed even, they were married. But Ras and circumstances and even Damian pulled them apart. (I do think writing Damian as a child of divorce is both accurate and kind of funny).
Finally, demonizing all of the al Ghuls and making Bruce's half of the family Damian's saviors. THIS is racist. Full stop. Making his majority white family the "good ones" and "saving" him from his evil brown family is an insanely bad thing to write. We have to see it enough in comics, please don't write it into your fic. There can be redeeming things about the al Ghuls, about his life prior to meeting Bruce. Keep in mind, always, that Damian is part Arab/Chinese, that the al Ghuls are all a mix of Arab/Chinese ancestry and that they should/would be imparting their culture onto him. The League was where he was taught art, to appreciate animals. You could write Talia imparting certain tea preferences onto him, favorite cultural foods, practices, numerous languages. Ras is immensely proud of his own heritage, muddled by age it may be, there's no way he didn't let Damian express himself this way. I fully believe Damian is fluent in various Arabic languages and Chinese, and that his first language is not English.
My final message: think before you write. Consider the actual comics, in fact, I'll put one here for Ras.
Ras al Ghul: One Bad Day. Published 2023. Unfortunately written by Tom Taylor (sigh). Its still good though.
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Ras kills some rich guys for facilitating the extinction of the wolf species you see. Of course, Bruce investigates.
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Ras kills Bruce, keeps him dead for three months before resurrecting him in the Pit. Damian stays by Bruce's side. There's a lot more, but I implore you to read this comic for yourself to get the full experience.
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Thus ends this post. Read this comic for yourself! Have fun writing them, just take these things into mind.
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alinaastarkov Ā· 2 months ago
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i'm not a shipper, but i think it's blatantly obvious that grmm has something big n impactful for jonrya. we're talking about two main characters, created to complement each other from the beginning. if she were a little older, i think ppl would be more willing to at least try to analyze the text. and i suspect that, deep down... fans noticed, but prefer to pretend they didn't. like at some point, you have to ask yourself why grrm felt it necessary to revisit old ideas n make jon live a semi-triangle through his perspective that also maximizes so many emotions. jon is a v passionate young boy when it comes to arya. while the other stark children think fondly of each other, they have all this intense stuff involving soul n heart. ultimately he chose arya. his heart is his sister and his sister is his heart. and the heart is all that matters. how ridiculously obvious is that? lol we already know that he and arya are outsiders, that they are each other's favorite person. it's redundant to keep hammering the reader like that. plus using the love vs duty card at this point in the story implies that if the theme comes back, it won't have the same narrative impact bc that alternative has already been used, just like if he died again for someone else it wouldn't have the same impact either. grrm isn't exactly a subtle writer, when he feels inspired, he just writes. as he wrote: each other's memories prevent them from giving themselves completely to organizations that demand detachment from the past. jon thinks that arya's home isĀ with him. he wasĀ tormentedĀ over her.Ā why do their stories need to be so intertwined in affc and adwd? what implications could his dying thought associated her will bring after the resurrection? how will their already close relationship be reconfigured? could they save each other after they meet again and connect with their true selves? these are questions that many fans don't seem ready to discuss. although, if that's part of grrm's plan. it will happen eventually. he might just take the platonic route with undertones. easy as hell. in a series full of incest, a brother ends up being accused of stealing a bride and apparently nothing rings in the heads of fans who are always so dedicated to looking for the smallest details to validate dumb ass theories looool. it's bc they simply don't want to see. the crazy parallels with rhaegar (black heart/stark maiden) are also not subtle either. as i said, i don't even consider myself a shipper, i prefer jon/val and i like arya/gendry. however, these pairings obviously don't carry the same emotional weight as jonarya and weren't even set up as endgame initially, ppl liking it or not. and grrm has already confirmed that he's going for the endings he's had in mind since 1991, so these two will inevitably be more important in their respective endings than secondary characters created later. and frankly, everyone knows that they choose each other before any possible love interests. be fucking realist. it's grmm's story. there's definitely something planned for them and has put a lot of attention on their relationship for a reason. jonrya foreshadowing is so thick that i cannot see how ppl can ignore them
you are absolutely right, anon. george at no point has scrapped his ideas for these two, and in fact made it more prevalent. they've been bonded since childhood, both outsiders, honourable, listened the most to ned's lessons, stubborn, kind, have a shared journey of losing identity (something all the key 5 go through actually which can be added to the list of reasons they are still the key 5), george even made them unique in looking alike. i could go on. he wrote them both with the other in mind.
forgive me if i'm getting the numbers wrong but i think jon thinks of arya something like 47 times? and that's in 42 chapters. on average he thinks about her at least once a chapter. crazy work. arya in turn thinks about jon around 42 times across her 34 chapters. frankly, arguments that george isn't going that way, isn't highlighting their bond especially or for a particular reason, are being purposefully obtuse. and they absolutely have noticed, lol. this is why every jonsa theory rests on jonrya material, quotes about arya, arya's storyline and themes or jon's love for arya. jon and arya's entire relationship is apparently just a red herring. they simultaneously insist there's nothing romantic and that we're gross, but also take "what do you know of my heart, priestess?" and pretend it's about sansa because deep down they know it's the most romantic thing ever. it's why they insist sansa will be the girl in grey or that sansa replaced arya in the original outline's love triangle despite no evidence of this. suddenly we're supposed to believe jon-arya-tyrion became jon-sansa-tyrion despite jon never thinking of sansa, and jon spending adwd fighting imaginary duels with ramsay for arya's honour. the outline also makes clear arya's in love with jon not tyrion, so who's to say it wasn't always meant to be a love triangle from jon's perspective only, lol?
i would absolutely agree that it's becoming redunant with how often he hammers it home if the fandom wasn't like this. as it is, most of the fandom still isn't getting in. he needs to be more insane about them actually. and the constant assertion that the girl in grey, or jon's betrayal for love will happen again shows such a misreading of the text. they've recognised the devotion jon has for arya, but because they don't like her that can only be platonic, and that devotion will be transferred onto whoever they like best and this time it will be romantic, duh. as if he's gonna repeat storylines exactly just with a different character this time.
and yeah, this doesn't have to lead to anything more than a deep, platonic bond and endgame where they at least won't be apart from each other. but to insist jon and arya are platonic and "not that deep", "he loves his whole family," etc. and then literally replace arya in the story with x character is unbelievably stupid and annoying.
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aiiria17 Ā· 2 months ago
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Anyone else underwhelmed by Sonic 3?
First note - I'm not trying to say you're wrong for enjoying the movie but just wanted to express how I felt. In fact I also liked a lot about the movie which I'll also mention
Second note - I absolutely love Sonic Adventure 2 and play it almost daily so it's DEFINITELY not that I'm not into the topic.
Third note - Spoilers!!!
Okay so there's two main things that bugged me about the movie, starting with the biggest one:
1 - Shadow
I LOVE Shadow as a character. I literally finished Shadow 05 just cause I adore his character so much. The arc he goes down in processing the rage he feels following Maria's death/his awakening is so good and has so much love and care put into it. I don't think movie Shadow is as strong of a character as the Shadow I love and obsess over.
First of all one thing I realized is just he's very quiet. Like at the end of the movie I was thinking "did I like Keanu as a voice for Shadow" and then I realized I don't feel there was enough for me to really base it off of. Like most of Shadow's scenes are him silently sitting there and observing and its just... underwhelming? That's how I felt about his character: I wanted a lot out of him and the script just didn't deliver much at all.
Shadow's relationship to Maria is shown well but kind of thrown at the wayside until the moon scene. Like honestly it feels like all he thinks about for her is revenge when that doesn't feel right in the context of the movie. In Adventure 2 the deal was Shadow having to remember Maria's wish that he valued but that doesn't exist here he just kinda realizes "oh wait I don't have to kill people" and then goes super and does stuff.
Genuinely as a huge certified Shadow lover this is just an underbaked iteration of the character that really made me feel like the movie doesn't deliver a satisfying end to his arc, at least to me. Like the moon scene is his big character climax but after that there's really nothing other than "he saves the world." I'd like him to like reflect? One of the most memorable parts of Adventure 2 is seeing Shadow cascade down to Earth. ("Maria, this is what you wanted right? This is the promise I made to you").
Basically movie Shadow is a weaker version of game Shadow and that's sad.
2 - Gerald Robotnik
The other big new character is so, so bad. I don't think the writers had a single idea for what to do with Gerald. Like he's the super evil real bad guy who wants to destroy the world but also very silly! And it's not just that he was like pretending to be silly to manipulate Ivo there is a scene after their betrayal (not really sure who technically betrayed who by definition but whatever point is they're fighting) where Gerald is spanking Ivo and like it's supposed to be silly and why can't this movie just have a consistent tone.
Ivo being silly is one thing; he's already off his rockers from the start it's his whole character. Gerald's goofiness feels so so forced and while that is arguably part of the point it goes beyond just "he was manipulating Ivo." I actually think I would have liked the movie way more if I didn't hate this character so much he's just such an ill-fitting illogical part of the story that I can't understand. Like why not just do Adventure 2 and have Eggman work with Shadow it would more sense and you could still do a lot and not have this mess to deal with.
Okay now I'm going to quickly mention things I liked but it's late so I don't want to write too much more and your time is valuable (thanks for reading if you are I appreciate it)
Good Thing 1 - Team "Sonic"
Shoulda been Team Tails he's the mvp.
Honestly their relationship in this movie was perfect. Everything felt right and natural and they all worked great and had amazing chemistry and look my pfp is Tails for a reason I'm always happy to see my boy succeed. I hope Knuckles can be treated a tad more seriously but I also do find Knuckles funny so I'm not mad (I'm like the one actual fan of the Knuckles show).
Good Thing 2 - Stone
Stone went from "I love this side character" to "this is a very good side character." He finally shows nuance to his relationship with Robotnik and it makes him seem way more interesting. He truly does want Robotnik to see him as a friend (if not more let's be real here) and there's an actual conflict between the two of them and it feels great to see happen! I really liked the Eggman message to him at the end it felt like a great end for both?(more on that next paragraph) of their characters.
So I think Eggman is maybe dead dead. If they get Jim Carrey I think it will be as a fake Eggman (my guess is Metal Sonic is going to do some Sonic Heroes shenanigans next). I do think they can do more with Stone. I mean what does he do now? I would actually like to know. Lowkey a series with him and Shadow would rule (all he really has to do is offer Shadow inner peace guac this time)
Briefly I think the post-credits is exciting and very expected. Feels like an obvious direction. My surprise bet, as previously mentioned is that it won't be Sonic CD (Amy seems too able to care for herself for that to be the case and that's awesome) and more a Sonic Heroes (where Metal Sonic shines more anyways).
Genuinely thanks for reading I just wanted to express this but it's almost midnight and I drove a lot today for this movie so I'm sleepy. bye bye
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archduchessofnowhere Ā· 1 month ago
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We talk about portrayals of Sisi, but I think that Franz Joseph was, if anything, even more misrepresented by the recent period dramas. How would you rank the portrayals of him you have seen/read (in historical novels)? Is there any piece of historical fiction that actually captures his character accurately?
Hello! YES I always focus on Elisabeth but he is also completely butchered in all these new series. I think I've said it before, but basically it's very hard to reconcile who FJ actually was (both as an emperor and as a person) with him being a love interest we as an audience can root for. Specially in these new adaptations in which Elisabeth is outspoken, mature and actively politically involved in the events of the empire (and not just the Compromise). Why would our Girl Boss protagonist want to be with a man who was bureaucracy made flesh, very conservative, and just kinda boring in general? It doesn't work. Thus, his personality also gets rewritten.
I don't really have a decided ranking, but off the top of my head I'd say these are my least to most favorite portrayals:
Sisi & Ich (2023): Do you hate Sisi adaptations that turn FJ into a horrible, abusive husband in order to make his wife look good? Well, this portrayal does just that. He is only very briefly in the movie but I hated every minute of it, personally I was mostly fine with the movie despite all its inaccuracies but there was one scene from this part that was a deal breaker for me. This movie should've been just two hours of Irma and Elisabeth traveling and nothing else.
Die Kaiserin (2022-): The solution of the screenwriters to the problem of "how do we make FJ likeable?" Basically turning him into his brother Maximilian lol. You see, he has liberal ideas but his evil mother doesn't let him pursue them! Oh, and he had nothing to do with those executions, that was also his mother! In fact everything bad he ever did was all his mother's fault, because he is not even governing, his mother is. By season 2 it almost seems that FJ has absolutely no idea what's going on in his own empire and needs to be explained basic thing like Italian nationalism. This series sanitizes FJ in levels that just aren't seen in any other adaptation, not even the Sissi Trilogy. You are watching the show and can't help but think "who is this guy???". The only thing he has in common with the real FJ is that he loves his wife, but the way their relationship is portrayed is so unlike the real couple that not even that makes him similar to his historical counterpart.
Sisi (2021-2024). This FJ is in the opposite end of the same spectrum as Die Kaiserin's FJ. Season 1 had the original take of not making FJ likeable, but instead they turned him in a borderline cartoonishly evil, violent and smug man. He smiles as he orders executions, he beats his aids for not reason, he openly cheats on his wife and publicly insults her in a fit of jealousy. Honestly I was baffled by this take, because even after all these bizarre changes they still went for a "Sisi and Franz's great love story!" approach for the series. Which was. A choice. They obviously wanted to make him like that so that he could go through a redemption arc thanks to his relationship with Sisi, but it was just not a well written arc, and when his personality does change in later seasons it doesn't feel like earned character grow but simply that the writers decided to tone down their original approach.
Yet I will admit I'm lowkey fond of this portrayal, I liked most of his storyline in season 2 (he spends most of the season bonding with a feral child and also definitely has a thing going on with AndrƔssy you can't convince me otherwise), and in season 3 I found myself agreeing with him. So yeah, utterly butchered FJ but in an entertaining way at least.
Sissi Trilogy: I'm honestly overall indifferent to this FJ; he is basically the blueprint for every posterior depiction that portrays him as a Prince Charming love interest. Yet, for all the overomantization of Elisabeth's early life, the movies don't shy away from telling us how FJ was directly responsible of the counter revolution executions. We even see how he is still hated in Hungary and Italy (at least until Sissi comes into the scene). A certain show from a certain straming service could learn that it's not necessary to completely sanitize his image and pin all his faults onto his mother to make Franz Josef into a palatable love interest.
Sisi (2009). I feel about this FJ almost the same as I feel about the Sissi Trilogy's FJ, but in this portrayal we do see more of him than just "Sisi's love interest". Also it's not always all the color of roses, he and Elisabeth disagree and fight more than once. His relationship with his brother Max is also really interesting, pity they only interact in like three scenes. Overall a solid take, if a bit romanticized and not particularly remarkable.
Kronprinz Rudolf (2006). Not a bad take but for what I remember they portrayed Taaffe as having this great influence over FJ and putting him against Rudolf. And like no the evil minister was not responsible for FJ distrusting his son He Was Like That.
Elisabeth das Musical: the only depiction on this list that I truly like, and it really proves that the only way to have a good FJ is to not make him into a love interest. He is only a supporting character and yet the musical nails the most important bits of his personality and his relationship with Elisabeth outstandingly well (loved his wife but never understood her, cheated yet still longed for her, let her go but always hoped she would comeback next to him). There's even room to also show his relationship with Rudolfl! The only thing that I don't really like is that they do portray his mother as having a lot of influence over him, but that's mostly because the musical has an outdated take on Sophie (which works pretty well in a storytelling level nonetheless!). Boote in der Nacht is the saddest song in the entire musical, and the musical is not even about FJ and Elisabeth as a couple. Just a great, nuanced and engaging take!
I know I'm missing a lot FJs but these are the ones that came to my mind right now; I don't think I've ever seen Franz Josef in a piece of media that isn't about Elisabeth or Rudolf. Thank you for your question!
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whispsofwind Ā· 4 months ago
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Tbh I still absolutely refuse to entertain the idea of Ziyal as a love interest for Garak because it just - isn't thematically interesting nor coherent with the rest of the series??
Like, there's so much importance on fatherhood and parental figures on DS9.
There's Ben Sisko and his relationship with both his own father and his son Jake, and how the positive relationship with his father translated into a virtuose generational cycle where he does his absolute best for Jake, always. Also, Sisko acts as a Moses figure in Bajoran religion, becoming as a paternal figure of sorts of Kira and as a Captain he acts a paternal figure for all of the Station, much more than Kirk or Picard ever did imo. (And quite frankly he is basically the MC so his character arc informs the whole series)
There's Julian and his relationship with his parents and especially his father - the father who became his architect because his son was "defective" and then resented Julian for it.
There's Rom and Nog and their mutually supportive relationships.
There is Kira Nerys and her relationship to multiple father figures - her biological father, sure, but also Ben Sisko and Tekeny Ghemor, and all the complicated messy feelings that those bring in their intersection with religious and political elements. And then the fact that Kira was a surrogate for the O'brien family and all the complicated feelings there, and her role as a parental figure to Ziyal.
There's Dukat and his absolute disaster of a relationship with his daughter (and his implied relationship with the rest of his children - and the implication that Dukat is not a good father by neither Federation or Cardassian standards).
There is Garak and the absolutely fucked up relationship he has with Tain and the intersection between Tain as a representative of the State and Tain as a father and the State as a parental figure to Cardassia.
In a smaller capacity there's also Miles who literally becomes a father a second time in DS9 and Worf and his complicated relationship with Alexander.
Odo and his complicated relationship with his "father", who wasn't his father at all but in a way wasn't he in the way he shaped Odo and his perspective of the world?
Even Dax, one could argue if stretching the argument enough, can be read through the lens of parental figures- Curzon as a father figure of sorts to Benjamin, albeit in a more fun dad sense, and Ezri as a metaphorical daughter figure to both Jadzia and Curzon, the young one with such big shoes to fill - I feel like I am not stretching it toooooo much here ok.
Just - so much of DS9 narrative revolves about being children of someone, and parents of someone. What it means to be a good father, a good parent, and how parents shape and form ad hurt and traumatise you.
And the writers were aware of that! So many episodes directly parallel two or more different plots about these elements with either the main characters or one-shot characters.
So, like, the subplot with Ziyal and Garak is basically already written?? Garak supplanting Dukat as a father to Ziyal is so thematically resonant with Garak and Dukat's storylines in the context of the broader implications of the show. It works on multiple levels in terms of Dukat not deserving fatherhood, and Garak breaking away from Tain's cycle of trauma and reconciling with a more humane and natural approach to family, and it also serves Ziyal's character arc in bridging her Cardassian and Bajoran sides through her putative parents, Garak and Nerys.
It's unfortunate that they really needed to make sure Garak looked straight and they chose Ziyal for it, because I truly think it was such a bad choice. I do not believe for a second that Garak is straight, so it didn't even work, but it surely ruined a perfectly good thematic streak they had going on.
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crimsoncold Ā· 7 months ago
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AEMONDSA: A crack ship with unexpected depth and appeal
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A treatise (in four parts) on the intriguing parallels and complementary contrasting of Aemond and Sansa and the subsequent allure of them as a romantic pairing in Fanfic
- from the perspective of a sansa-stan, jonsa + sansa-centric multishipper, and someone who is generally Targ critical
Now while my general stance of "ship and let ship/don't worry so much about what other people in fandom focus on or ship/etc" still stands i wanted to do a little write up on what I've found so appealing about this particular crack ship.
Not to justify it (again fandom and shipping in general is just about enjoying/thinking about fictional characters and scenarios... no one needs to justify why their imagination likes to think about two characters interacting romantically) but because there isn't a ton of metas addressing the interesting parallels between these characters and the appeal of them as a ship so I wanted to make one so the handful of people who do ship it get to see some more positive engagement/responses to this pairing.
I just unexpectedly ended up loving this pairing so much and I always have a particularly strong urge to contribute to fandom content on the rare pairs/crack ships that I like....So here have a deep dive into the parallels, and contrasting but complimentary aspects of Aemond and Sansa, and the unexpected appeal of Aemond x Sansa as a pairing in fanfiction...
PART 1: MY EXPERIENCE WITH ASOIAF/GOT & HOTD FANDOM AND WHY AEMONDSA IS A PLEASANT SURPRISE
So I'm going to be drawing from both book and show elements when I consider and compare Sansa and Aemond's characterization and plot arcs (particularly since this tends to be how they are handled in fanfic- which all have differing combinations of book or show canon for both characters)
(this is a HOTD S2-free zone though... HOTD's writing has certainly not improved and it's inconsistencies even compared to their past writing and characterization of many characters including Aemond has made such an absolute mess so for this post I'm ignoring the worst part of HBO's attempt at making hotd fanfiction i.e. S2- and I am basing my understanding of Aemond on a combination of what can be gleaned from book canon and s1 because that was what initially interested me AND because that is what the aemondsa fanfic I've read has also been based on)
Now Just to set the scene for my journey as a stark fan, jonsa shipper, and generally targ critical person to become an appreciator of aemondsa...
GOT had a steep decline in quality in the later seasons and HOTD despite the incredible effort of the actors/sfx people was not particularly good to start with in terms of writing/storytelling...yet disappointing or poorly written shows are not without their appeal for participating in fandom and reading/writing related fanfiction, particularly when there is a handful of interesting characters-looking at you stark kids who suffered through the writing of GOT's later seasons and HOTD's team green-that fans want to rescue from the terrible writing/butchering by the showrunners and to explore alternative stories/endings for them... sometimes it is even one of the most appealing sort of set up for fandom/fanfiction to take over and fix things.
I was already a huge Sansa fan, and she was the original draw for me towards asoiaf/got fandom and fanfiction, and while jonsa has been and remains my favorite pairing for her I've always been open to dabbling in various other sansa pairings/crack ships.
(While the parallels don't take the exact form as the ones between Sansa and Jon- and obviously aemondsa isn't accompanied with the incredible foreshadowing and potential that jonsa is- this pairing still feels similarly compelling due to the sheer amount of parallels between the two characters and for the fact that its a ship that is appealing and seems quite fitting without fanfic writers having to stray too far from canon personalities/back stories to make them work as a romantic pairing- beyond you know the obvious aspect of them being alive at the same time)
When HOTD first came out and before i discovered Ameondsa was a thing I was staying away from HOTD fanfic for the most part despite my interest in a few of the characters
HOTD's most predominant focus in both it's fandom and fanfiction seemed to be Rhaenyra/Team black/ Daemyra centric- all of which I was at just personally not drawn. Aemond (hot dramatic anime antagonist transported into hbo's HOTD and personal favorite of mine) centric fics unfortunately tended towards shipping him with various TB characters or TB OCs but both as a concept and due to the handling/set up these fics were generally not appealing to me (more on this later).
Furthermore hotd fandom itself seemed to be shaping up into a new edition of targ stan centric fandom- specifically a new "team black only" brand of stanning... which is definitely not something I am interested in.
Being someone admittedly anti targ/targ critical in general who just happened to be more intrigued (and sympathetic) to the greens in HOTD it did seem that the bulk of hotd fandom was probably going to a similar if even more extreme form of what I encountered with targ-stan segments of the GOT fandom as a sansa-stan/jonsa shipper (ie. Less posts/fanfic that i would personally agree with or be interested in from these fans and potentially hostile and unpleasant responses or takes from the majority of these fans)
As a result of my general avoidance of hotd (i.e. the very pro targ/pro TB fanfiction that hotd fandom offered) Aemondsa, already an extremely rare pair and crack ship, wasn't even a pairing on my radar until one of the authors i was subscribed to started a hotd time travel fix it aemondsa fic...I have an appreciation for well written crack ships, and I am willing to give most pairings or fandoms a chance when I'm already a fan of either the story's main characters or of the author specifically ...but I was actually incredibly suprised how compeling Aemondsa was as a pairing in this story..as well as how much I enjoyed the other Aemondsa fics that I checked out afterwards..it seemed this was a niche segment of hotd fandom that i was going to absolutely obsessing over.
There was a lot of depth to them for a crack ship, which was achievable without altering their personalities and backstories very much from canon (dont get me wrong I love crack ships even ones where people and the plot are altered significantly to make a ship feel possible but there is something uniquely compelling when characters fit together without having to be too ooc) so I just wanted to write a bit about what is so fascinating about this ship since it's such a new rare pair that hasn't accumulated a massive audience or a ton of discussions or write ups yet.
PART 2/4. THE SURPRISING AMOUNT OF PARALLELS BETWEEN SANSA AND AEMOND (FANDOM, PLOT-WISE, but most of all regarding FAMILY)
(Uh ....Brace yourself? this section ended up way longer than expected)
For me the initial appeal comes down to intriguing Character parallels between Sansa and Aemond which fanfic at least offers the opportunity to explore in a story format ....
On a surface level they are (in the shows particularly) both intelligent and underdog figures with fantastic little sassy moments - true queens of dealing out backhanded and cutting compliments, or being unapolegetic critical towards some of the flawed and extremely privileged individual's they encounter who are used to receiving only coddling and fawning worship.
Both characters seem to get shit treatment, sometimes from the fandom other times due to the terrible choices/handling by the writers/showrunners.
Both were characters I personally found interesting and sympathetic despite how fandom- some of it for aemond and a significant amount of it for sansa- had deemed these essentially young and still innocent characters worthy of being reviled and harmed for the ways the adults in their lives had set them up for failure or abuse. Forever dismayed by the way they (unlike certain fan favorites) were somehow never deemed by fandom as deserving of sympathy for the horrible things that happened to them, and how notably they never recieve the same feverent forgiveness/understanding/support for their more dangerous or dark actions the way other characters did
Looking at the difference in fan responses to show!Arya or Dany compared to Sansa- though when it comes to the sheer amount of violence, destruction, and murder or the act of threatening their kin obviously despite what Sansa-antis say Sansa is the only one who should not even be part of the discussion, and how Dany or Arya always recieves excuses, sympathy, forgiveness, or outright praise from the core audience for their more questionable actions while somehow Sansa is deemed as the unforgivable, dangerous, evil, traitorous, and foolishly reckless character
How Aemond (and all of TG really) are set up and considered by TB stans to be unworthy of their house/rightful inheritance and the ones most at fault for the onset and destruction caused by a civil war... never victims mistreated or endangered by the more privileged and powerful members of their family... just the people who only ever deserved what was inflicted on them by TB for the crime of being forced to wed a disgusting and neglectful King or for being threats to Rhaenyra's family or throne simply by existing? How the morally questionable or violent actions of Rhaenyra, her sons, or more particularly her uncle-husband will always be seen as either justifiable, in the right, excusable, or literally worthy of praise the way Aemond's and his family's actions will never be viewed by this core audience
I think about how much like segments of asoiaf fandom bash Sansa by deeming her too southern/too Tully/Too Catelyn-like to be a real Stark (unlike her "truly northern" siblings) their are also segments of hotd fandom that have chosen to see Aemond and his full siblings as only Hightowers who are wrongfully stealing from TB/the "true Targaryens"
But there were even more striking parallels when it came to their characterization and plot.
Both younger (non heir) children, presented as being intelligent, incredibley dutiful and studious, with a very close relationship to their mother, in a sort of intense people pleaser manner - trying their best to excel at all the skills/duties that their parents/society deems necessary for their position and sex because that is the way they receive acceptance, attention, or praise from their family/the adults in their life
Aemond and his studies, his apparently dedication and success in training with the sword despite his own disability, his determination and recklessness to finally become a dragon rider like the rest of his Targaryen family- as it is what is expected and what he has long been mocked over by some of his targ kin, how despite his own ambitions and the way he thought himself particularly suitable for rulership he remained the dutiful and loyal younger brother who served as regent for his gravely injured older brother but did not attempt to stylize himself as King and steal Aegon's throne.
the way that Alicent seems to be the only family member he allows himself to be vulnerable with, the one with whom he turns to for consolation and comfort, Alicent being absolutely devastated and incensed over the loss of Aemond's eye and the lack of punishment for the assault on his person, the only one to demand recompense, the only one to raise a knife to the blacks when she is denied, how Aemond is the one person who tries to console his mother in the aftermath, how despite having just lost an eye he is the one who actually tries to sooth his mother to bring a stop to the increasing and dangerous level of tension and conflict that had erupted between the blacks and greens at driftmark, Aemond's own longstanding protectiveness of and devotion to his family- most especially his mother- that lasts until his own demise.
Sansa and the way she thrives and enjoys the type of world and training that is more of a noble woman's or specifically her mother Catelyn's domain- unlike her wilder other siblings she is generally a steadfastly proper and gentle girl- no doubt a comfort to her mother not just because she is generally so well behaved but in the fact that unlike her siblings she is not shown to be obviously or very publically close with Ned's illegitimate child- who for Catelyn would be the literal personification of Ned's infidelity, the disrespect and humiliation he puts her through by raising him in their house along side their children, and her deep seated fear that he loved and will prioritize another woman and her child more than his own wife and family.
Sansa is the child who seemed to love all things "southern" the most (though undeniably despite how Sansa is looked down upon for her love of romantic stories and song her other siblings also certainly enjoy legends and tales of Knighthood or Southern Princes and warrior Princesses) and to be fascinated by the environment her mother is from, the one who is drawn to and practice her mother's faith in addition to keeping to the old gods,
How Catelyn though she truly grieves letting her daughter go seems to accept it not just because her belief that Sansa would excel as a princess and future queen but because she thinks Sansa would thrive simply through getting to experience the south...Catelyn seems to grasp the things Sansa dreams about and unlike many other family members she does not view Sansa and her interests with the same condescension, dismissal, or disdain.
Catelyn loves all her children immensely but there is something so tragic and beautiful in her love for her daughters, the desperate lengths she is willing to go to to ensure the saftey of both of them while the lords/males in her family have already given them up as a lost cause and inevitable and necessary casualties in their war for vengeance and northern independence
Despite this affection though there is a lot of pressure on both of them... almost to the point that their treatment by the adults in their lives has a bit of a "parentification" dynamic- a manner that sometimes puts the onus on them to be a support and a comfort to their mother amid any tension in the family/marriage (Aemond) or to be the perfectly behaved role model or minder for their less dutiful siblings (Sansa)
Sansa, in everyone's eyes a lady at three and a queen destined to be, the determined effort she puts into excelling at being studious, accomplished, proper, and ladylike, how much she tries to exemplify the behavior praised and exemplified by her mother and her septa
set up by the adults in her life as a go between for the stark sisters...used as the benchmark for their demands and expectations of Arya, being held up as the bar for perfect, proper, and praise worthy behaviour that Arya is presssured to also attain, the daughter who gets censured on the few occasions she acts out while her younger sister typically gets away with her poor behaviour (at least when it comes to their parents)... Sansa isn't just under the pressure of the exacting expectations for a lord's daughter she also experiences the stress of being put in the position of exemplar for her wild untractable younger sister.
Aemond, apparent dutiful student in many areas expected as a child of nobility, who is expected to support Aegon in his rulership and war and (in the show) even takes responsibility for trying to keep his older brother in line, the one who after losing an eye takes the effort to comfort and console his mother's grief and rage when their father does nothing in response to an attack on Aemond other than threaten and intimate his wife and his children with Alicent in order to support his firstborn daughter, who becomes the human equivalent of not just a wrecking ball but a literal weapon of mass destruction sent out on behalf of the advancement of his family or later to enact terrible bloody vengeance on his family's behalf, his life his purpose and his death is all for his family's sake more than his own.
They put so much effort into being well behaved, to reach the exacting standards for a child in their position, setting an example for the less obedient/well behaved sibling(s) all of which in turn adds to significant strain or conflict between said sibling.
Sansa and Aemond are the sibling expected to and determidly striving to live up to the high expectations that the adults in their life put on them and to survive the extremely dangerous and high stakes scenarios they are put in (as a lord's daughter, prince's betrothed and future queen, a hostage and target for the machinations and ambitions of others, the older sibling, a ruling lady, and elected queen; a prince, dutiful son and brother, ruthless and dutiful defender of his family, and regent)
Meanwhile they have other siblings who struggled to meet said expectations or have given up attempting to all together (Arya, Rhaenyra, or to some degree Aegon)
Siblings who must from the perspective of Sansa and Aemond (who are still young, inexperienced, and have had a great deal of conflict with said siblings) seem to flaunt all expectations free to rebell, flaunt the rules, and generally ignore the high pressure expectations that children from their class face.
Undoubtedly frustrating since, much like their more rebellious siblings have failed to sympathize with the more responsible ones, Ameond and Sansa too have not (yet) been able to recognize the ways their less successful/dutiful siblings also suffer under the highly restrictive expectations of their class and position even if they do not choose or succeed in conforming to them.
They see that despite how they may excel in studying, striving and succeeding in their roles, and ultimatley exemplifying the high standards they were raised to it is these other siblings who seem to get rewarded (experiencing in their eyes at least what appears to be more freedom, less pressure, minimal censure or punishment for their misbehavior... while simultaneously receiving the bulk of the reward in terms of their inheritance, the attention they recieve, or even with regards to the amount of affection given by some of the authority figures in their lives, i.e. their fathers)...
To them it must seem that these siblings get to be not just easily forgiven for their mistakes and misbehaviour, but accepted as or outright adored simply the way they naturally are, whereas dutiful and non problematic children like themselves tend to be overlooked or underappreciated, and quickly criticized on the rare cases they misbehave... the acceptance and affection they recieve appears far more conditional on them behaving well according to the expectations of their family or various instructors/minders... whereas the affection their siblings receive, from say a certain parent, is show to be rather unconditional
Seriously they both give me such severe "easy" (i.e. overlooked) and "gifted" child trauma vibes... how much of their behavior is simply in their nature and how much is what they conform themselves to to make the adults around them proud... because as the quieter child or apparent outsider amindst their family/siblings this is the only action that comes natural to them and gets them some (hard earned) attention/praise in a rather large and loud family they otherwise seem a bit lost in... how much of their striving to succeed is dependent on the sincere belief/understanding that their saftey and potentially the future, saftey, and wellbeing of their family depends on it.
They both have a far more distant relationship with their fathers who favoured another sibling- a sister over them... father's who either didn't seem to know how to connect with them - Ned- or never really bothered to try- Viserys...
while i do believe Ned loves his children and they adored him in return i feel its obvious that he neglected in preparing any of them for the true dangers and realities of the world away from the satey and protection of winterfell and their Stark family, and he absolutely dropped the ball on keeping either of his daughters safe and supervised when he took them along into a very dangerous situation in kingslanding
Furthermore Ned never quite seemed to connected with or pay attention to Sansa they way he did with Arya... just something about the fact that when he follows the orders of his king/supposed best friend to kill Sansa's direwolf (the very symbol of their house) it is in replacement for Arya's Direwolf who was allowed to escape the cruel wrath of the Queen and Prince...and how he continues to fail Sansa in the aftermath
It's something about the gifts he gives his very angry and traumatized daughters to comfort them after- in lieu of truly trying to actually connect with and console both of them or to even properly mediate their increased fighting.
Arya (in the show and book) is given lessons with a "dancing" master who teaches her swordplay/water dancing, she was so excited and she always wanted to be outside learning to fight like her brothers got to, in this moment to her understanding she is not just seen by her father she is accepted and supported (a careful reader may see that Ned's attitude appears to be slightly condescendingly indulgent on the matter of her learning swordplay... but Arya gets the chance to do something she loves all the same)
Meanwhile (in the show) to try to console Sansa Ned gives her... a doll? (Honestly I can't recall any equivalent gift from Ned to Sansa in the books? the mention of her possibly getting harp lessons in Kingslanding was actually a promise Catelyn made to her on Ned's behalf rather than his own effort... and was something that Ned didn't actually ever arrange in the books)
But is this doll meant to be an appropriate gift to make up for the death of her direwolf? Is this gesture enough to comfort her and make amends after Ned killed her direwolf (notice its not exactly as spectacular, meaningful, or comforting a gift as arya's "dancing lessons"... certainly there is no indication that he has any particular understanding of Sansa or has given much thought into her talents, interests, or personality beyond the most shallow perusal)
In the aftermath of Lady's death Ned does nothing to truly protect Sansa or keep her away from the obviously dysfunctional and dangerous family he has promised her away to.
Yet he can take the time to comfort and have a frank conversation with Arya about how important staying together and supporting eachother as family is- especially when they are amongst dangerous people who mean to harm or separate them- and the specific importance her and Sansa will have to one another as sisters who share the same blood... further explaining how just as they will need eachother Ned needs them as well
Ned has no such comforting or distinctly meaningful exchange with Sansa... he doesn't explain the reality of the Lannisters/Joffrey/Robert (i.e. the truth of the people he has agreed to give his young daughter away to despite the fact that he either personally has no respect for most of them or has not been around them long enough to know anything about their true nature)
Yes it is the risk to his daughter that makes him willing to falsely confess to treason, yes eventually he decides its best to send his daughters back to winterfell, yes he finally wants to break the betrothal and he makes a beautiful promises to make her a match with "a high lord who's worthy of [her], someone brave and gentle and strong" ... but he is much too late to get both of his daughters away from the lannisters/kingslanding, way too late in his attempt to keep them safe, and he fails to handle Sansa with age appropriate respect and frankness and to actually tell her how dangerous things are in kingslanding and why joffrey (false prince -bastard born of incest) is such an ill suited match.
Maybe if he had put any effort into explaining things to her...or simply spending time with her, speaking to her, trying to understand her, comforting her amidst the loss of lady and the increased fighting with Arya, or doing literally anything other than just neglecting her and her saftey Sansa would have actually trusted his decision and seen it as him wanting what was best for her.
Maybe if he had been more proactive and focused on his daughters well being he wouldn't have brought both of them south after the altercation over their direwolves... or maybe he could have been successful at getting both his daughters out of kingslanding before everything went to hell.
Its almost like the whole point of the Ned/Arya/Sansa and the Ned/Cersei/Sansa dynamic isn't to show that Sansa is a naive girl who betrays her family for the lannisters but is instead to show that when you neglect your child emotionally they will turn elsewhere for comfort and will be particularly vulnerable to being manipulated or abused by other adults... its almost like this part of A Game of Thrones is more about the way even someone like Ned- a man who does strives to do what he thinks is right and a parent who does loves his children- can still fail.
Ned's treatment of Sansa is specifically intriguing, though i don't know if it will be addressed specifically since her relationship and dynamic with Ned is one that much like Robb ended with his tragic and unjust murder (leaving behind a grief stricken Sansa helplessly longing for the return of her family and home, grieving with a near devotional regard for her lost father and brother)... Sansa will never get to confront or reconcile with them over the many ways she was let down and left unprotected by her male relatives- and who knows if a traumatized and grieving Sansa will ever even recognize and admitt to herself the ways the people who she loved the most failed to live up to her expectations of them... how clearly that despite their love for her she was rarely their first priority ... how they both seemed to fail to follow their family mottos ... the lone wolf dies but the pack survives.... family before duty or honor... she was family yet duty and honor came before her in Robb's eyes... she was part of a pack but through Ned promising her to a marriage in the south, in him taking her and Arya away to kingslanding, in him failing to prioritize her saftey until they all were practically already on the chopping block, and in Robb abandoning any hope or plan of rescuing her she truly was abandoned by them ...to be a lone wolf without a pack to help her survive
Then there is Viserys who at the very least had a much stronger regard for Rhaenyra than all the kids by his second wife ...but can also quiet easily be accused of outright neglecting and mistreating them
The lack of guidance holds true for all his children really but with Rheanyra at least it is accompanied by an (ultimatley harmful) spoiled indulgence that he offers only to his eldest daughter- covering up her obvious blunders and threatening anyone who would speak the truth of her questionable actions and her children's legitimacy including his own wife and sons ... going against traditional succession not because he wants to promote first born succession/succession by "merit"/or treating daughter equal to sons in terms of inheritance or anything like that but because of guilt and unashamed favoritism.
Viserys refuses to give to his son what westeros society at least would deem as Aegon's birthright, while also failing to make arrangements for any his non-Rhaenyra children to have a future and saftey separate from the throne.
He doesn't arrange matches with other kingdoms and give them allies, protection, family, independence, or a power base independent of the crown/hightowers instead leaving them dependent only on the crown, vulnerable targets to be handled (i.e. no doubt killed on the orders of Rhaenyra and/or her uncle husband Daemon) as living they would remain the most significant threat to the legitimacy of their rulership.
Viserys looks the other way when Aemond specifically is permanently maimed by Rhaenyra's son...his only action after his son loses his eye is to threaten his second family, to intimidate them into staying quite on the topic of the legitimacy of Rhaenyra's children before he deems the matter concluded... as if the worst part of that altercation was Aemond calling them bastards rather than say four children ganging up against one and how one of these children attacked using a knife and cost the other their fucking eye?
That for Aemond more than anything must cement his understanding of his father's feelings about Aemond and his full siblings and mother. To Viserys they simply matter less than Rhaenyra and her children.
In fact their well being or saftey matters less than even an offense made to Rhaenyra's reputation... which shows Alicent and her children without question that they are in danger from the blacks and the King will do nothing to prevent the blacks from trying to severely physically harm Aemond or his siblings, and in fact that there will be no punishment for the blacks when they succeed in doing so.
A civil war between the blacks and the greens was inevitable... Viserys actions of protecting and favoring Rhaenyra while also not ensuring she is instructed on and practices/proves her ability to rule, willfully ignoring that she violates her own vows and that she passes off her obviously illegitimate children as trueborn heirs, of permitting her not just to inherit (and position her illegitimate son as the next heir to) what most considered the birthright of her brother but also for her to steal the birthright of her own cousins by supplanting them with her other bastard and demoting them to being simply their brides/consorts, him keeping her as heir not just after he has multiple trueborn sons but also after Rhaenyra gets remarried to the exact violent bloodthirsty man that so many feared and Viserys himself had previously removed as his own heir in favour for Rhaenyra.
Viserys doing all of this while still choosing to remarry and have MULTIPLE children with his new wife... the neglectful and disrespectful way he treats his second family... all of this ensured that the death of some (if not all) of his children, via either assassination or in outright civil war, would always have been inevitable.
There is so much hatred, fear, distrust, and tension between Viserys' family members... and not only did he fail to intervene or improve things he was the one most responsible for it ....so much of the environment Alicent lived in and Aemond and his full siblings were raised was permeated by not just a sense of deep injustice (particularly in Aemond's case with his treatment by not just the blacks but his own father) but also an undercurrent of desperate fear over what will happen to them and their family in the wake of a brewing succession crisis
The mommy, daddy, and sibling issues are so strong with these two and I'm so obsessed with how the complicated family dynamics and tragic family losses that Ameond and Sansa experience echoe one another in so many ways...there is just so much love, grief, rage, unpacked trauma, and hurt in them and I am always obsessed with stories that allow the narrative or characters to address such trauma.
PART 3/4. THE CONTRASTING AND COMPLIMEMTARY ASPECTS OF THEIR STORIES (SUFFERING AND GRIEF)
They were both were so young when they became targets of the wrath and dislike of powerful and corrupt "Queens"
Sansa who loses her direwolf at the demand of Queen Cersei, a queen who after long being abused by her own husband sees a perhaps more extreme form of that sort of violence in her own mad son being directed at Sansa, who rather than expressing or experiencing compassion or sympathy instead takes the chance to revel in the destruction of Sansa's innocence, to mock and emotionally abuse Sansa when she has lost her father and her only protection in Kingslanding, leaving her a hostage of war at the mercy of a violent and corrupt royal family
Aemond who after losing his eye to an attack instigated by Rhaenyra's children receives no apology or recompense...instead his own sister asks for her mutilated little brother to be tortured sharply questioned due to the offense he caused by accusing her sons -accurately mind you- of being bastards... Aemond and his siblings who were never truly ever treated by Rhaenyra as her siblings only ever the offspring of Alicent and thus obstacles and threats for her (and her uncle's) right to the throne.
Both were physically harmed or tormented by (or with the approval of) young members of royalty, with very little being done to intervene, stop, or punish those involved despite their own highborn status- which would generally deem them unacceptable targets for such abuse.
Young Sansa a hostage but still a high born daughter descended from two of the seven ruling houses in westeros, The Warden of the North and the Lord Paramount of the Trident, and niece/cousin to the rulers of a third kingdom, the Lord Paramount of the Vale. Who while under the "care" of the crown is tormented, stripped, and beaten in open court at the behest of a mad boy king... forced to look upon the severed heads of her father and household, forced into being an unwilling child bride to the house of her family's enemies, who is molested and threatened with sexual assault on multiple occasions
Prince Aemond son of the King who is mocked by his brother and nephews (or his king and father in the books) over the fact that he hasnt yet claimed a dragon, and when this makes him reckless enough to approach and claim the largest dragon in existence the torment doesn't stop it gets dangerously worse as the tension between the children of the blacks and greens escalate to the point of a violent confrontation between Aemond and his nephews and cousins... and the resulting loss of of his eye when one of his attackers brings out a knife. None of the children who banded together to attack Aemond would face any consequences, only Aemond himself and his mother and older brother would censure and outright threats from their King Father and Older sister. Whose earliest sexual experience- done at the behest of his older brother- was implied to be at the very least coerced, traumatizing, and humiliating- if not outright non consensual on his part.
Both Sansa and Aemond face a terrible sort of loss when they begin losing their family members to mass civil war ...often in a manner that is distinctly horrific or against all laws of decency in the 7 kingdoms
her father Ned unjustly executed for treason and whose decapitated head is displayed and used to torment her, her younger sister Arya gone missing for years and long thought dead, her home sacked and younger brothers Bran and Rickon supposedly murdered by her family's ward- a boy who grew up alongside the stark children- the burned/mutilated heads and bodies of two young boys being being put on display at winterfell, her older Brother and Mother slaughtered when their traitorous allies and bannermen men break sacred guest rights at a wedding, both their bodies desecrated in a mockery of their houses... Robb decapitated his direwolves own head placed ontop of his body while his enemies parade his remains around, her mother Catelyn's throat slit and her body dumped naked in a river and left to rot.
(In the show) Rickon being cut down before his siblings eyes by a madman who betrayed their house and had tortured Sansa herself, her "half brother" Jon betrayed and murdered by his men and later sent off into a lonley exile away from his family and home for the "crime" of taking out an invader who had just committed mass murder... Sansa being left to rule the north all alone with many of her family members long dead and the surviving ones being set on a path away from the north/winterfell while she is left to handle rulership in isolation
Aemond who after commiting the first Kinslaying of the "war of dragons" by attacking his own assailant and nephew Lucerys proceeds to lose all of the family that he loved.
Starting with the tragic murder of his innocent young nephew at the behest of his elder sister/uncle- who arranged for his mother Alicent to be attacked tied up and forced to bear witness to the gruesome murder of her grandchild,
His sister Helaena -who plead for her life to be taken to spare her son- forced under the threat of the rape of her young daughter to choose which of her young sons will be murdered. Only for all of them to be traumatize further when they kill Jaehaerys and leaving Maelor the son she "chose" to die to survive with the message that his own mother wanted him dead... the emotional torment this caused the whole family but most of all his sister who refused to eat, bathe, or look upon her remaining son due to her immense feelings of guilt
his older brother Aegon who has lost his son and heir, and whose sister/wife is in a grief so deep she cannot care for their remaining children, who is attacked and maimed but survives to live on in total agony,
the murder of Maelor, Aemond's remaining nephew at the hands of a mob
Aemond's last stand, sacrificing his dragon and his own life to take out his Uncle (the biggest threat to his family and the orchestrator of Jaehaerys' brutal murder)
The many tragedies that continued after Aemond's own death- his sister's eventual suicide, the death of his younger brother Daeron, his oldest brother outlasting all of his siblings and his own two sons only to be taken out by poison once the war is over, his mother spending the last of her years in confinement until she passes from sickness,
His niece Jaehaera, after the loss of her entire family, married off as a child in the name of "peace" and dying young and alone- of suicide or murder
There is just such fascinating potential when two characters would have so much mirroring grief and trauma ...there is such an undercurrent of helpess rage, guilt, and grief to them in their youth and a undoubtedly a feverent desire for either vengeance or justice against the many people who harmed them or slaughtered their family...
And here is where things begin to differ between the two in interesting ways
with Sansa who has these violent wishes/impulses but is not in a position to see them fulfilled herself- her desire to push Joffrey to his death even at the cost of her own life, her wish that someone will throw Ser Meryn Trant down and cut off his head, her hope that various people will fall/be unhorsed...
Sansa who recieves a direwolf, Lady, the very symbol of her house and potentially a companion that would have offered a connection that was an extension of her own soul only for Lady to be cut down so quickly and unjustly... Sansa who loses not just the connection/companionship she recieved from Lady but also the protection such a bond would offer her ... she is left vulnerable in so many ways and has no promise of reuniting with her own direwolf later on... that will never be a comfort or form of security offered to her after all the danger and trauma she experiences
While Aemond, who spent much of his young life similarly helpless to act or respond to insults and assaults on his own person or immediate family, (that his father/king either never deemed worthy of interference or punishment... that is when it wasn't the King himself who was the perpetrator of such offenses) unlike Sansa experiences a change of fortune in the form getting to bond with the symbol of his house
He gains (and gets to keep until his own death) a bond with a different sort of mythical beast companion... a dragon and as a result recieves all the potential for power and destruction that comes with being a dragon rider
By claiming Vhagar Ameond is the closest he will ever be to untouchable, not just from the harassment he personally experienced from his family but with regards to how grave and dangerous a threat/target he had now become for the blacks during the dance of dragons
Aemond now a dragonrider of the largest living dragon, a child and later teenager who is in control of the narrative equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction, and he is no longer held back from acting on his anger once the rule and interference of his neglectful father king is over,
he is in control of the most massive beast of pure destruction and unlike Sansa, who for now in the books- or for much of her story in the show- remained an unprotected hostage or pawn in the hands of those who mean to harm or use her... who handles her trauma very internally as she is not in a position to fight back, and must rely on her words, intelligence, and ability to read and strategically interact with people as a way of defending and keeping herself safe, Aemond is now in the position to enact every bloodthirsty impulse of revenge he ever experienced
He was held back from enacting vengeance only through his own will, which ultimately proves not enough- he commits the first kin slaying and soon the actions of each side escalated into a horrific bloodbath where nobility and small folk alike suffered or die en masse
While Aemond's story may be one of family devotion and loyalty, mistreatment, injustice, and suffering that ends by showing the terrible outcomes of revenge and uncontrolled cruel brutality Sansa's story feels like one where grief, rage, and mistreatment exist but where family, love, compassion, kindness, justice, and integrity will win out in the end.
Sansa was certainly developed into a more discerning strategic and ruthless figure in the show but justice, duty, and forgiveness were still very prevalent in her storyline
she does have ramsay killed in a fittingly horrific manner, but she later holds a public trial for littlefinger- who was responsible for much of her familys suffering, the death of her father, and her own torment and rape- before she has him executed,
She feels compassion and forgiveness for theon the man who had betrayed her family and drove her young brothers out of their home, who only after experiencing significant torture himself became devoted to protecting the remaining starks and was able to find the courage to disobey his own torturers in order to help Sansa escape,
She possessed a concern for other people that few ruler do in asoiaf/got... speaking up against Joffrey's cruelty even as a powerless hostage, being the person concerned with the more practical matters of caring for and feeding their people during a harsh winter- a notable development in comparison to say everyone else just focusing on battle tactics and the upcoming battles (as though feeding an army is not an essential part of warfare), and the invader who just burned westeros' food stores en masse and now expects others to feed not just her armies but also demands that her dragons be fed "whatever they want"
I think in the books however that despite Sansa's internal grief and rage and her burgeoning political acuity there will be a gentler end to her arc where her own innate sense of duty and her (now more discerning) sense of compassion will win out in the end when she takes back her name, identity, and birthright ... that she along with her surviving family will have justice administered in the name of their lost family and people... efficiently bringing down righteous and necessary judgement on those that harmed and betrayed them rather than simply dealing out some form of mass, bloody, cruel revenge on her enemies (I'll leave that for lady stoneheart) ... and that a satisfying ending for her and the other starks will balance them realistically addressing the dangers and betrayal they faced with their own personal resolve to hold true to the values imparted to them by their parents.
... yet after all her suffering (and the frustrating lack of trust, consideration, or support she was given by her own family in the later GOT seasons) there is something darkly appealing to the idea of her getting (not a hero precisely) but a ruthless and devoted sort of monster to support her and bring down unholy vengeance on her various tormentors
PART 4/4: THE RESULTING DRAMATIC AND EMOTIONAL APPEAL OF AEMONDSA FICS
This after their many parallels and complementary contrasts is what intrigues me the most...the interplay of a potentially wary, cautious, traumatized but still duty and justice oriented person and a companion or lover who is comparatively more ruthless, unhinged, capable of atrocities, and who is more equipped to dole out violence en masse... (guys the pipeline from dark jon/dark jonsa to aemondsa just makes so much sense)
the question in Aemondsa fics of what will win out in the end- the shared grief and rage or them both controlling/channeling such impulses into strategic righteous fury and justice is always fascinating... and most of all the idea of Sansa (after all the trauma mistreatment and grief she has experienced) attaining the interest and eventual devotion of someone who despite being capable of monstrous actions is also incredibly loyal, devoted, and ruthless in the pursuit of their loved ones interests ("I want you to put out your eye ... plan to make it a gift if it to my mother" indeed) is just as appealing as the idea where an isolated, lonely, traumatized, grieving, and dangerously angry young man like Aemond gets to find acceptance, affection, companionship, and belonging with an intelligent strategic but more importantly an exceptionally compassionate person like Sansa.
Its just a dynamic far too intriguing to ignore especially for someome who already loved Time Travel/Reincarnation Fix IT AUs in fanfiction
While emotional catharsis and Sansa returning home and having the dreams she had wrote off as impossible be fulfilled (i.e. building a loving partnership and marriage, having children with someone who loves and wants her more than her claim itself, reuniting with her family) is something I love- and what I want to happen in canon (hence my otp being Jonsa)- there is always an interesting/guilty pleasure aspect of fanfic where Sansa (or the Starks in general) get to wreck terrible bloody victory and vengeance on those who betrayed and butchered their family and people (not really the ultimate message or point of the book but definitely emotionally satisfying in fanfic)
Just like there is a sort of appeal that exists in hotd fanfic that is sort of the opposite ...ones that alter the violent senseless and tragic trajectory of the dance of dragons... to either change the course of a brutal civil war or prevent it all together
and the Aemondsa pairing's time travel or reincarnation fics provide an opportunity to explore both of these diverse dynamics.
Sansa will always deserve the world... in canon and in fanfic i want to see all her dream and hopes come true whether it is with a truly good and just partner with whom she gets to build the life and home she always dreamed of or through her getting her very own devoted monster who would do anything to keep her safe from the scores of people who wish to misuse or harm her
and I always wish that hotd fanfiction offered more Aemond centric fics with a love interest that you know actually likes, sympathizes with, or understand him? He feels too tragic a character for me to want him to experience the typical hate and love (enemies AND lovers) treatment he tends to get in fanfic... its not really satisfying for me seeing his typical pairing up with whatever team black character (or really TB character rewrite) or some Daemon's or Rhaenyra's daughter OC that is the frequent choice for aemond centric fics...him being portrayed as some impusive awful and villainous love interest who changes sides and abandons his family just to be with his lover/obsession feels so out of character in a way that erases the best, most compelling, and sympathetic parts of his canon personality, motives, and actions.
Luckily Aemondsa fics seems to be a pairing that offers everything I like in Ameond or Sansa centric fics....
In conclusion Aemondsa is surprisingly compelling and versatile dynamic in fanfic and I think that is why I've become such a fan of Firesteel/Aemondsa fanfiction (in a way I'm NOT at all a fan of the actual HOTD show writing lol)
I'm a proud support of crack ships/rarepairs and I'm always willing to add to the fandom appreciation of pairings that gets less attention or fandom related works... so expect to see the occasional Aemondsa fanart/fic recommendation post from me amongst my typical jonsa content (in fact expect one in the next in a day or so)
Otherwise I just hope established Ameondsa fans (or people who haven't ready any aemondsa fics but are fans of either character/curious about this pairing in general) have enjoyed seeing me fangirl about these two characters/this crack ship and feel inspired to check out or even make their own Aemondsa content!
-Crimsom Cold
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goodluckclove Ā· 21 days ago
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A Meandering Insight into Writing Stronger Dialogue
So I'm taking it easy today. It's cloudy in Portland and I would like to do some drawing. But I also thought I would do a weird new thing for me and maybe offer some writing advice into the void about creating stronger dialogue.
I've said before that I am easily angered by how most writing advice is phrased. At the same time, I get that for a beginning writer, my go-to guidance of "watch movies, read books, figure it out" can be like crazy intimidating. So I'm going to try and be more flexible. It might be helpful, it might not be.
There are a ton of information available about writing stronger dialogue. I've looked at a few videos and found an amount of useful tips. Listening to the way people talk is super useful, and eavesdropping on conversations in public places (without being a creep about it) is a super great way to do that. But for the most part I came away realizing that people giving advice on stronger dialogue are, almost entirely, just crazy biased.
Even the concept of "writing stronger dialogue" is - somehow both complicated and vague. It's dependent on genre. It's dependent on the era, the laws of the universe and the whims of the narrative as a whole. I can think of many examples in which part of what makes a story stronger is the fact that the dialogue is what some would consider "weak". One of the videos I watched had a man use Tommy Wiseau's The Room, a famously incoherent cult movie, as an example of bad dialogue.
And he's absolutely right! Part of the mystique behind the film and it's director/writer/producer/lead actor is that Tommy Wiseau insists he's born and raised in the United States, despite that just. Not being possible. So when he writes a script it turns meandering, disjointed, confused and deeply melodramatic. But when this well-meaning YouTuber revised a scene to be "stronger" in terms of dialogue between the two actors, it turned The Room from longstanding classic that still has ongoing showings at arthouse movie theaters, to some mediocre indie movie with nothing that really captures attention. It's clearer and more direct. The video creator claimed it was likely what Tommy Wiseau's original intent was. I would argue Wiseau's intention also involved a sense of soap opera emotional highs and lows - a tone that is not served a bland, weirdly subdued script revision.
I think asking "how do I write stronger dialogue" is a question a writer can only answer from within. The question to ask outside parties, perhaps those with more experience in the craft, is "how do I write dialogue that works better to fulfill my goals and the goals of my story"? You might not like the way I write my own dialogue, and that's fine. But it absolutely does what I want it to do, so I'd say the second question is one I can try to answer.
Be Honest With the Reader - And With Yourself
This is not an easy thing for me to do, but I'm going to have to call out a quirk I see a lot of newer writers do. I do it with love, because it's something I did myself a lot when I was starting out. You start writing and you form a character who's really cool, but they're also smarter than you are! Or funnier! Or more charming! What do you do???
It's an easy issue to face, and every time I see it I want to sit down with the writer and tenderly say Shh stop it. Change the character, the approach to the scene, or your perspective on how you write them. Stop going the way you're going it is almost certainly not going to be interpreted the way you want it to be.
It's the worst when I see people struggle with a character they view as "funnier than them". And they might try and crowd source for tips and tricks on how to be funny. And while I can see this potentially being a jumping off point to something useful, for the most part I find myself wanting to scream HEY DONT DO THIS THIS IS NOT HOW IT WORKS.
I'm not gatekeeping being Funny. I'm saying straight up that I truly think every human being has some sense of humor, even the ones that have been told enough by others to internalize that they "aren't funny". You are! If you have ever made yourself smile or laugh, you are funny! And more people than you think will also find you to be funny!
Humor is incredibly varied. Because of this, there is a Lot of comedy that will probably do nothing for you. You might be numb to prop comedy, for instance. So if you tried, unironically, with full sincerity, to write and perform a new prop comedy routine, it would very likely not turn out well. I personally am pretty attuned to inauthenticity in writing, and it's the easiest way for me to toss a book (or my whole TV if it's a movie or show) right out the window.
If you want to learn more about writing comedy, start with what makes you laugh. If it's something someone else wrote, maybe look into what that person says about comedy. The person who made you laugh will know more about helping you write comedy than a stranger online who might have an entirely different sense of humor.
Write What You Have a Frame of Reference For
I got told "write what you know" a lot when I was starting out. Usually by people that weren't writers, which makes sense, because that phrase is trash and it made me so angry. Because at 13, when I seriously started writing, I didn't know a ton of stuff. So feeling like I was that limited created a sense of distrust in myself that is just not helpful when you're starting out.
But if you rely on what you have a frame of reference for, things get a lot vaster, and only more expensive over time. You might not know anything about going though a divorce, or becoming an assassin, or turning into a vampire. But maybe you've had a falling out in a relationship, or you've started a new job in an industry you're unfamiliar with, or you've felt lonely and isolated and scared. If you focus on the latter, the way you connect to the circumstances on the narrative, it's way easier to craft compelling characters.
This is debatably less crucial for more experienced writers. I personally, after 10+ years in the medium, still find crucial to have some kind of investment and connection to every character I write, even if they're bad people.
If a character is smarter than you about a certain subject, don't focus directly on that. They're an expert in Quantum Biochemistry? Oh man you know anything about that. So if you aren't confident in your ability to learn and absorb enough on the field to have it be a plot-crucial element, maybe you're light on the references to that characters background and career in exchange for a greater emphasis on something that you have a better grasp on. Or you can narrow the scope - maybe your quantum biochemistry expert is a professor or a researcher, two careers that might be far more accessible. In many cases, micro is more impactful than the macro.
What you're able to do will naturally grow as you grow. And when you're starting out, you should absolutely feel welcome to be overambitious. Take risks, do something new, fuck up spectacularly and don't let that stop you. But if you're looking to improve something like dialogue, I would say it comes down the angle of the character that allows you as the writer to connect to them. Even if you don't agree with their actions. Even if you have nothing else in common with them. If you get some connection that makes the character something other than "person more interesting than I am" it becomes a LOT easier to write for them.
Also maybe don't take a majority of dialogue advice from people who exclusively engage in books and movies you hate. Don't do that. It doesn't matter they they went to film school. They will probably not help you.
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ghost-proofbaby Ā· 13 days ago
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When you get this, reply with your favorite five fics that you've written, then pass on to at least five other writers. Let's spread the self-love šŸ’›
this caused a sweet walk down memory lane of the last several years, so thank you very much for that <3 i've decided to exclude long fics, and focus more on one shots posted here, because in all honesty? every long fic i write for a character i hold near and dear to my chest, and each one is a love letter all on their own (i'm looking very hard at you two, the shire is burning and the moon will sing.)
you showed me colors (eddie munson x reader)
yes, very sad, but also i just adore the world building i managed in this fic. absolutely tragic but also the sweet moments really did give me a toothache. i think it did well on encapsulating both the feeling i got as i fell for eddie while watching the show, as well as the devastation when the canon ending to season 4 happened. a slightly different story, an almost parallel universe, and yet it all ended the same. big tragedy. big feelings. but the love is still there <3
2. foolishness and all (eddie munson x reader)
this one is honestly pure silliness, but it also just captures my love for eddie so... nicely? so perfectly? one shots like this one and no denture adventure just always serve to remind me why i love eddie, why i love writing, and just the sheer joy of fandom/being a fan of things to the point of wanting to immortalize them with my words forevermore - even when the words are inside jokes or entirely unserious for the most part.
3. sweet like honey (steve harrington x reader)
the notorious fic in which i've had snippets of sent to me a few times where i go "WHO WROTE THIS? I NEED TO READ IT!!" only to be hit with the fact that i wrote it. was the final nail in the coffin in the way steve owns the nickname "honey" for me, too. we love cocky king steve. long live.
4. simple. (astarion x reader)
this one i love due to the way i got to play around with a new dynamic between astarion and reader/tav <3 his character, including his trauma, is something extremely personal and important to me, so venturing out with this type of writings with him has always been a slippery slope for me. but i genuinely enjoy what i did here <3
5. kissing lessons (robin buckley x reader)
and of course... how can i not include this lovely work in which helped me take something sour from my past, and make it sickly sweet? robin has been a huge fictional crush for me since season 3, and getting to put myself into a reader while giving them a happier ending than reality was just very fulfilling to me <3 makes my heart sing that so many others enjoyed it right along with me <3
this was so fun and nostalgic, thank you so much!! šŸ˜­šŸ–¤
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