#also grrm is not a nihilist

[spectrum-color]

I have been on something of an aSoIaF meta kick lately because it’s a fun series to analyze, and I stg I am going to smack the next person I see say that GRRM is a cynic who hates romance. “The things I do for love” isn’t just an iconic line, it’s the thesis statement for the whole series.

From Jon breaking his vows to the Nights Watch and getting himself killed to try and save Arya from a terrible fate (or so he thinks,) to Catelyn releasing a valuable POW and crippling her sons cause to try to get her daughters back, to Ned damaging his reputation and risking his own execution for treason to honor his beloved little sisters last wishes, to Tyrion murdering his own father to get revenge for destroying his first love, the choices that the characters make, good and bad, are driven by love. GRRM is a self described romantic and it shows in the story.

[littleandless]

HOUSE OF THE DRAGON SEASON 2 FINALE: MY THOUGHTS

i mean, wow.

tyland getting some screen time yay. also, i was glad to see the trend of dyed beards represented on screen FINALLY. game of thrones shied away from that.

aegon and larys running away together…doomed yaoi</3

honestly i’m glad they made aegon’s broken dick part of show canon. first of all, he deserves it, but also…it means he’s about to get perverted in a different way. maybe larys will introduce him to voyeurism.

jacaerys has gone full-on bratty failson, which is kind of pathetic and sexy of him tbh.

ulf went from harmless idiot to dangerously irreverent soooo quickly. i know he has a dragon or whatever but he should at least pretend to kiss ass for the moment. like hugh! he knows the value of appearances.

how the hell did gwayne even find out about alicent and criston fucking? am i meant to assume he extrapolated that from the intense sniffing of the handkerchief?

i love how nihilistic criston cole has become. no more shiny white veneer, just a bald-faced suicide mission. he doesn’t fear death. the only thing holding him back since that night when alicent found him was her. and now he sees the futility of it all. so yeah, let’s embrace death! yippee!

this episode added so much to helaena’s character. after we see her and daemon interact in his weirwood vision, it cuts to her in the next scene, in the same outfit with the same facial expression. we’ve had 2 seasons of helaena making prophetic statements, but they were always full of metaphors, and her dreamer status seemed more like something that happened to her rather than something she did. but this episode turns that assumption completely on its head.

the weirwood vision was INSANE! BLOODRAVEN! DAENERYS! THE WHITE WALKERS! it reminded me that we’re being told this story for a purpose. grrm didn’t write a spin-off just for the sake of making a few extra dollars. it’s all connected. we’ve been hearing about the dance since shireen baratheon taught davos seaworth about it in season 5 and joffrey spoiled the ending in season 3 of game of thrones. and when ser duncan and baby egg finally appear on screen in a knight of the seven kingdoms, witnessing the blackfyre rebellions amd interacting with brynden rivers, things will be recontextualized yet again. the impact of all of these characters reverberates for centuries. you see it everywhere in a song of ice and fire. even if you’re not much of a reader, i implore you to read them anyway. and i’m not just saying that. even if grrm never actually finishes the series, i will die swearing that it was totally worth the read. if you have any love for these characters at all, give it a shot.

back to helaena: her scene with aemond was fucking fantastic. away from the eyes of their mother, each of them is more themselves than ever. aemond isn’t just an incel a wounded aggressor and helaena isn’t just a wounded dove. they both have a clarity of purpose, and they are in direct opposition to the other’s. aemond “come with me, help me defend us and all we hold dear” and helaena “it won’t change anything, it’s over, you’re already dead” it had me on the absolute edge of my seat. i felt like a dog in need of a stuffed animal to annihilate with my teeth. THIS IS CINEMA.

back to daemon: from his first scene in the episode, we see a resignation that wasn’t there before. he accepts the maddening nature of harrenhal, he accepts alys hovering over him at night and leading him to the weirwood tree, and he doesn’t brush off her words. he embraces the power of this place as well as the finality of what it reveals to him. there will be no more yearning or grasping, at least not for his own purposes. he knows what he must do. he submits to rhaenyra as he submits to his impending death.

the scene between alyn and corlys was so powerful. idk maybe it’s because i have daddy issues too, but it moved me a lot. watching your father forsake you for his trueborn heirs while you toil ceaselessly for survival, and then witnessing the downfall of everything he holds dear, and then finally…finally he acknowledges your value. knowing that all your success as a ship captain is attributed to the man who didn’t or couldn’t give you shit else. trying to compensate for decades-old wounds. all of this and he can still barely stand to meet your eyes. GOD.

another illicit rhaenicent scene! so much sexual potential and they just keep squandering it!

but seriously, that scene was insane. alicent has completely given up. “here, have the castle. take king’s landing. i’ll open the door for you. fuck, take my son too, take it all.”

all of their relationship encapsulated in a single conversation! everything boiled down to its base essence: i clung to honor and tradition and resented you because you didn’t, and now i’ve done some of the same things i always judged you for and i’ve realized it doesn’t matter. i just want this all to end.

that’s it, guys! that’s their whole dynamic! hell, that’s the whole show basically! but it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late! it’s too late!

someone redesign the sigil of house targaryen as a dragon eating its own tail and wrap this shit up

[horizon-verizon]

HOTD IS ALREADY A VIOLENTLY ANTI BLACK SHOW BUT RACIST PIGS WANT TO HAVE ANOTHER BLACK GIRL SIDELINED IN FAVOR OF AN IRRELEVANT & UNINTERESTING WHITE NON-CHARACTER.

When Aegon III look at Jaehaera, her face, her eyes, I know he saw Aegon II’s face. With Jaehaera, he can’t escape him, he can’t escape his mother’s violent death, he isn’t allowed to think of anything else, he’s forced to revive his olympic trauma over and over again. But with Daenaera, it’s UTTERLY different.

Jaehera dying is the story coming full circle. A greedy and ambitious hand wanting to make his daughter queen started the war but now his line ended by another greedy and ambitious hand who wanted to make his daughter queen. The point is that the Greens didn’t get what they want in the end because someone, one of their supporters, had the exact same mindset as Otto. Karma got to them. The Greens started this entire war to get their blood on the throne and their last chance to get their victory is dashed by one of their own people doing the same thing to them, GRRM is a genius, it’s ABSOLUTELY PERFECT.

Y’all REFUSE to let Rhaenyra have some crubs, it’s so disgusting. The Greens already have their own victory, Aegon II is the one remembered as king and Rhaenyra as an usurper, but he must also have descendants (the Blackfyres I guess) who tries to usurp Rhaenyra’s descendants and grandsons who became kings ??? OUT OF QUESTION, LET IT GO. You cannot have your cake and eat it too.

The Greens started this entire war to get their blood on the throne and their last chance to get their victory is dashed by one of their own people doing the same thing to them

Heavy on this, anon. In fact, let me go back an insert the part about Jaehaera being the green's last botched "chance".

Anon refers to this post I wrote from a person expressing why they thought Jaehaera's death was "narratively irrelevant". And why Daenaera can still be written in without marrying Aegon.

It's true Aegon the Elder is held as one of the kings in the line of monarchs while she is not. That is not bc she usurped Aegon, but because they wanted to discourage the idea and practice of naming women or girls as heirs altogether. It was about female rulership being made into the cause of disaster or conflict, not Rhaenyra necessarily!

I still don't think Rhaenyra is universally remembered as the/a usurper, because by their own vocabulary Rhaenyra can never be a usurper...she was declared heir by the monarch and held as the true heir for years. Gyldayn calls her "Queen" several times and unironically and out of the then-living people's perspective. To be a usurper, you need to violently or unlawfully seize power, which Rhaenyra never ever did. The greens did that.

Once again, Stannis is not a reliable source to judge history, because the man is a walking self-denier and nihilistic user of fear to get his way. In the actual novels, Rhaenyra is thought of a civil conflict more than the direct cause of one through usurpation and "usurpation" itself is never mentioned unless it's Stannis saying so. And yes, Arianne Martell had the right of it, even though she is also using history for her own claims...the difference is that her reading of history and Rhaenyra's position is correct.

The people who want things to be more "equal" or "balanced" bt the greens and the blacks or have the greens have a sort of victory like the blacks just sound really desperate. And for what? For patriarchy to reaffirm itself deeper than ever and more than if Rhaenyra had just been queen?🙄

[shaydh]

Ooo can you point me to better grimdark? I don't know if I enjoy the "genre" (I know it's too broad to be a genre) but I keep getting interested in 40k and VtM so I'd like to find out!!!

Also, aww, you don't like eragon? I know it's not perfect but, darn I really liked those books back in the day, I'm afraid they won't live up to my memories now

i liked eragon when i read it as like, an eleven year old but it is objectively bad. dude wrote it when he was like fifteen so i don’t want to shit on it too bad but. anyway.

good “grimdark” (or just dark gritty fantasy type of thing): asoiaf series by GRRM, the First Law trilogy by Joe Abercrombie which i finished and went into a nihilistic fugue state for a bit (positive), Berserk by Kentaro Miura, Between Two Fires by Christopher Buehlman, Ego Homini Lupus by Gretchen Felker-Martin, the Malus Darkblade books by Dan Abnett.

[dragondream-ing]

I think the people that screech “ASOIAF isn’t Disney/a fairytale” are up there with Dany antis. First of all, they say it to insult other fans, to signal that those fans are unrealistic. It’s reductive, it’s disingenuous, and it’s not even true—I haven’t seen a single take seriously claiming GRRM is writing a pure sugar-sweet story. I don’t know anyone who even WANTS that.

It’s worse because most of these “critics” think ASOIAF is grimdark or a tragedy or something along those lines. They think bittersweet means bitter. And they don’t seem to realize the original versions of the fairytales they hate so much are far closer to grimdark than ASOIAF will ever be lmao

GRRM isn’t some nihilist, and he’s not into tragedy porn. He never has been. He’s actually quite a romantic, even if his romances don’t end with “and they lived happily ever after without ever experiencing a single problem again.” He loves aspirational characters, and not because he wants them to fail. Actions having consequences in his stories isn’t the same as “it’s not worth trying, everything is terrible and nothing will ever be better.”

Here’s an actual example of bittersweet for the hidden prince trope, and it’s •definitely• not loosely based on a very obvious character in ASOIAF:

The enemy is defeated, but the prince loses his sword arm during the battle. Known for his prowess with a blade, he will have to endure living without such a defining aspect of himself for the rest of his life. He may be relieved he has an excuse not to take up arms again, or perhaps he’ll dedicate himself to learning to fight with his non-dominant arm, but he’ll never be the same as he once was.

The prince is devastated by a greater loss; when he lost his arm during the battle, his closest companion sacrificed themself to protect him. He will have to live without their steadying presence and spend many days finding himself unworthy of such a sacrifice. His loved ones will remind him his closest companion would want him to accept the gift and live happily. He’ll know this is true and will try, but he’ll only succeed on some days and fail on the rest.

The prince goes on to rule the kingdom with his queen, but they’re going to have to rebuild a world shattered by war and deal with the trauma of their experiences for the rest of their lives. Not all is lost, however: they have each other to lean on, being two people that understand each others’ suffering and struggles and love each other more deeply because of it. They also have the hope that their children and the generations to follow will live in a better world thanks to their sacrifices.

The end 🥲

When I think of bittersweet, I think of my grandpa. In his mother country, he grew up too poor to own shoes, then went on to be a shoemaker. He joined the military and was kind of a big deal in his impoverished village, but he left because the government was corrupt and he feared for his family’s safety in the long term. He lived his life in America being derided and underestimated, working menial jobs doing the dirty work many people never think about or value, saving every cent he could, and fighting tooth and nail to ensure his kids and grandkids lived in more security than he ever did. He lived across the world from his beloved siblings, never saw them again, and outlived them all. He retired as a janitor and died in the home he loved with his grandkids and wife beside him.

I’m proud to be his granddaughter. He lived an extremely hard life and struggled more than I can comprehend. And I can’t comprehend it because he made sure I wouldn’t have to. He’s the definition of planting trees under whose shade you’ll never sit. THAT is bittersweet. Bittersweet is poignant and painful and beautiful, joyful and tragic and compelling. It is not on the same thematic plane as House of 1000 Corpses.

I’ll say this in conclusion. If you’re running around insulting people with “ASOIAF isn’t Disney,” let me tell you, even Disney is closer to bittersweet than your nihilistic depressing takes will ever be. If you think Snow White can’t be a bittersweet tale, you’re disingenuous. She suffered tremendously (bitter) but never lost hope and was able to find love (sweet). Extend the ending and make it a bit more “realistic” by including some of Snow White’s and the Prince’s struggles and losses, and it would be a perfect example of a bittersweet tale.

[agentrouka-blog]

Hi I love your content! And sorry in advance for my rant.

I have been a hardcore jonsa shipper for years. But after season 8 nothing makes sense. I can’t believe this is George’s ending. There is nothing bittersweet about it, it’s just bitter. What was the point of a Stark restoration if they all split up by the end? Jonsa is the only endgame that makes sense. The Starks are the heart of the story and they must prevail by the end. Sansa is at the center of that. Her arc is all about family, marriage, love and motherhood. Yet in the show she is the only main character that has never been in a consensual and true relationship. She ends the story alone, and D&D imply she will never find love after all the abuse she has suffered. After season 8 I have given up on the entire story. What if we are wrong? What if Jon will fall for a monster (dany) and ruin his life because of it. Maybe we think to highly of him. Maybe he’s just as big of an idiot as Robb by falling for the wrong woman and losing his kingship and family over it. Maybe Jonsa will just be the greatest love story that never was. I just don’t know anymore…

Jonsa is the best endgame possible it ties up the entire story and is the only satisfactory conclusion, both for the story as a whole but also for Jon and Sansa’s arcs. A true Stark restoration. Without it the story is just a flop.

Not that it matters. George will never finish the books. And we will never get canon Jonsa from the shows (neither GOT nor Snow). HBO are the biggest Dany fanboys.

Whoa anon, someone was having a nihilistic day in late June!

Step away from the doom and gloom and try to think logically.

It makes no sense for GRRM to hide the jonsa clues if they lead nowhere. It also makes no sense to hide them if they are an unimportant red herring that only distracts from the endgame.

Know why? It's a lot of effort setting up those clues - and for those who see them you can't unsee them, but they do require paying attention first. GRRM didn't take that effort for nothing. Hiding them only makes sense if he deliberately wants to reveal what they lead to. It's important, but time sensitive.

It's happening.

And do you really really think that GRRM has created Jon Snow and his entire story so far as a set-up for a fatal attraction to his aunt, who, by the time they meet, will have a body count to dwarf Tywin? Do you think Jon Snow will look at a Targaryen with three dragons, demanding to rule Westeros, and feel a twitch in his nethers from excitement? Do you think that's the extend to which GRRM is willing to take his character development?

Did Ned Stark look at Cersei Lannister and feel remotely aroused?

What's the more subversive storyline: male character slave to erectile preoccupation, or maybe just maybe, Hector and Achilles?

[nightswatchdisbandmentera]

More recently, the dominant fandom narrative that’s been cropping up is the idea that ASOIAF isn’t a nihilist story but is instead a rather romantic story at its core. Or better yet, fans have come to accept that while it takes a more realistic approach to medieval fantasy, ASOIAF is essentially a tale about earned romanticism.

In the same story with Roose Bolton and Tywin Lannister, we have Davos Seaworth and Ned Stark and Brienne. The same story with dangerous ice elves who ride the waves of winter to threaten humanity with death and enslavement has characters like Bran Stark whose soul in animal form is called Summer (the opposite of winter) and Daenerys Targaryen who is the mother of dragons (representing heat and passion and life) and a liberator of slaves. So the idea that even in the face of evil and darkness, goodness and light still exist and will eventually prevail, right?

Ok. 

So tell me why people then use death and tragedy to define Jon Snow and his story even though he’s morally closer to Brienne, Ned, and Davos, and shares the same magical destiny as Bran and Dany? Why do people keep ascribing tragic endings to him and say he has the most probability to die (where are these statistics coming from)? Or they say that because he dies at the end of ADWD, then he’ll also die at the end of the story?

Jon’s death and resurrection (which happens during winter, mind you) is the idea of life everlasting. Even in death, life will continue to persevere. Jon’s great destiny is to fight the Others. It’s why GRRM made him the main POV in that magical war. His arc has always been related to the greater conflict that is coming. So Jon’s death and return to life is also going to be related to that conflict, right? 

See as the Others come riding the winds of winter, death follows. Of course this will affect the world. People may die and the land and its fertility might die as well, but ever persevering is the dream for spring. The dream that after a period of death and darkness and winter, life and light and spring will be restored. Jon, the main POV in the fight against the Others so far, is the embodiment of that. 

The next book is called The Winds of Winter and we can expect death and devastation to follow, but we can also expect new life to emerge. That new life is Jon Snow’s resurrection. He will be reborn and will gain new life in spite of winter. Jon’s rebirth in this book is a mirror of the life that will eventually be restored to the land after winter. Jon is literally a dream for spring and it’s actually quite poignant that these words are only ever said in his POV.

And, Jon’s mythological parallels are usually about life after a period of death. Usually there is death and sacrifice but then there is the promise of everlasting life that comes after. Jon is connected to spring and fertility and rebirth! 

He is the Corn King, a fertility god who dies and is reborn to bring about the rejuvenation of the land (spring). He is Persephone whose descent into the underworld is accompanied by winter, but whose ascent back to the world of the living brings about the spring. Other mythical parallels like Osiris are presented as gods of fertility who are connected to the promise of life after death. Not to mention the obvious messianic undertones that are everywhere in his story; a savior who dies in the place of his people and is reborn to ensure that they too see life after death. It goes on and on but a majority of the mythological influences in Jon’s story have to do with the concept of fertility and vegetation; NOT death.

So as I see it, the struggle between life and death is personified with Jon Snow. Jon’s death at the end of ADWD coincides with winter arriving in Westeros. But then he won’t stay dead because he will be brought back to life; though we’re not sure how it will happen, only that Jon will have a chance at rebirth. 

And Jon will be reborn during winter. Isn’t the idea then that even in the face of death, life prevails? That’s why it’s so thematically relevant that as the cold sweeps through Westeros, a bastard boy is brought back to life near the lands of winter so he can then beat back death. It’s what makes Jon the King of Winter. Not that he represents death but rather that he conquers it.

It’s thematically meaningful for Jon, one of the main heroes of the story, to actually wrestle with death and come out on top. So him dying again at the end of the story or having a tragic end, what’s the point of that? How does that track with the current thematic elements in the story? Yes, this is even if he is to die in an act of self-sacrifice. Jon has already done that at the end of ADWD. What will a second death show that hasn’t been done with the first one? What new understanding will we gain of the character?

I don’t understand why this fandom goes out of its way to deny Jon the romanticism that they ascribe to other characters, even though GRRM puts him at the heart of that struggle between life and death. It’s so vital that out of all the prophesied heroes in the story, Jon is the one who literally tastes death but ultimately defeats it through resurrection. Eventually, that has to mean something to the larger themes presented in the story.

So the point is not that Jon died. The point is that he died but did not stay that way. He lived. The boy lived. So stop using death to define Jon’s story!

[thephantomcasebook]

What is even the point of having Aegon sexually violate his mother??!!! Had a cringefest yesterday with my friend after reading that speculation. The sad part is none of this shi* is beyond Hess...and even Ryan, who openly implied in the GOT Con that Daemon was probably 'in love' with Viserys. They were ready to take inc£st to a whole new level. 😭

I think there is a great trap that is absolutely inherent in George RR Martin's writing, in general.

His stories are built on an incredibly subversive and nihilistic foundation that was meant to challenge fantasy tropes that J.R.R. Tolkien and Robert Howard created in the 1930s/1940s.

However, the problem with that is that GRRM has the discipline - most of the time (Read @duxbelisarius military analysis of "The Dance) - to know what the line is for his universe and how far one can take the nihilistic nature of the story and then pull it back. the Dunk & Egg stories are a masterclass in that type of 1960's Marvel Age morality tales in which doing the right thing is the hardest thing to do and you don't get rewarded for it, but the main characters do it anyway and it costs them dearly every time.

However, if you don't recognize that, than the ASoIaF Universe with all it's Nihilism and Brutality is just the type of world that is seductive to lazy and bad writers to dream up and bring into existence some of the most horrific and degenerate situations, because, they believe that is the world of "Game of Thrones". They believe that everything is awful and bad things happen to people all the time. So they can make or write something exploitive, because, they believe it is in the very DNA of Westeros.

That type of small minded thinking is also tempting for someone who has a personal mission to write in their political or social agenda to torture and languish female characters by turning every male character into a monstrous rapist, abuser, or generally unhinged in order to make some bullshit Sapphic social commentary about the treatment of women in the real world and how men hold all the power and patriarchy and all that bullshit.

The issue remains that they fundamentally don't understand the Jack Kirby and Stan Lee type of morals that GRRM is trying to set down. Yes, bad things happen. Yes, humanity is capable of true evil. And the right thing is hard and can be stupid, and you can be punished for doing it. But that doesn't mean that you don't do it. GRRM is constantly taking characters and evolving or degrading their morality, based on the Marvel Age principle of the 1960s Comics he grew up loving.

You give a writer a story in Westeros and they'll show you what kind of storyteller, good or bad, they are by the end of it.

[cerseiwondered]

I think it's interesting how so many ASOIAF fans and content creators disagree when the general audience/casual readers call GRRM's work nihilistic and cynical, and I agree. I think HBO's GOT is to blame for this image that the series has.

But most of the people who affirm that GRRM is actually a romantic will also support the idea of Dany becoming a mass murderer/villain by the end of the series.

I'm rereading AGOT right now, and we see Ned, who, I believe, is supposed to be the closest thing to a moral compass in the story (cares deeply about children, innocents, honour, etc.) actually fighting Robert, his best friend and king, to save Dany's life. Because Robert believes that she must die for being a Targaryen; that she must die for being the Mad King's daughter; that she must die for marrying a Dothraki and maybe, possibly, in the future, leading the large Dothraki army to invade Westeros and commit genocide.

I see all of that, and I'm supposed to believe that romantic GRRM will, after all, tell us that Robert was right? That Robert, who called Rhaenys and Aegon dragonspawn and who brushed off their slaughter as "war", was right, and not Ned?

[melrosing]

What do you think about Jaime dying? I'm sitting on the fence as to whether GRRM intends him to die, but gen fandom overwhelmingly thinks he is doomed (and tend to think murder-suicide with Cers... which... urgh on so many levels).

Do you think he's going live or die? While I'm not sure what GRRM intends, I think the story would be so much more interested if Jaime lives. "How do you struggle to be moral in a world which almost compels you to be immoral?" is an interesting question, and I almost don't want GRRM to cop out from answering that question by going "and then Jaime got killed by an Other protecting Brienne... the end".

My approach to everything in life is to expect the worst so I'm either prepared for it or happily surprised..... so as a Jaime stan I'm just hedging my bets lol

I don't really have many thoughts in terms of how/where he dies, but my reasoning tends to be:

His weirwood dream seems to suggest that death is on the cards. Not definitively, and there's room for manoeuvre, but yeah, expect the worst

'Legacy' is a big part of Jaime's story: he spends a not inconsiderable amount of time wondering what his will be - what will people think and say of him after he dies? I think for the story to answer that question, he'll need to die first

Siiiigh so also like.... punishment for Tywin lmao. He wipes out entire families, now watch the same happen to him. Goddammit though if my fave dies just to piss off a dead Tywin.... I would fucking hate to see it

Always felt like Jaime belongs in the 'old world' of Westeros, and I wonder if GRRM would feel there's room for him in the new world the younger characters make. I dunno :\

Again, happy to be proved wrong here and I concur with everyone who'd like to see more stories where people have to actually live their better lives, but whilst I don't feel GRRM is nearly as nihilistic as many claim... I am still cautious with my optimism on certain points

[shieldofrohan]

Only ending I prefer for Tyrion is death or he sent to wall. If Cersei and Jaime are going to die even Tommen and Myrcella who are innocent, then why Tyrion is going to live?

Hello Anon,

Because he is author's fav. That's it.

I wish you could see me right now. I am looking at my computer and trying to find the words that can tell what I am feeling and thinking about this Tyrion issue. I put my fingers on the keyboard and take a deep breath and nothing. I am speechless. Because I simply don't understand.

My only explanation is that Martin tries to point out that sometimes bad people win and they end up with power. Maybe it is a realistic take because yeah it happens i real life but in FICTION, this just underwhelms the readers. Because I personally feel like I read him being a horrible person and a RULER/HAND for nothing (but asoiaf is not nihilistic he says... my as* I say...)

He was not smarter or better than Baelish or Tywin so why did they die and lose but Tyrion ended up fine? Baelish was smarter than him x100 times but he lost. And it was satisfying to read. Tyrion's ending makes no sense so far and it just leaves a hollow feeling after witnessing the whole journey.

Yes I know, we still don't know how Martin is going to serve this ending to us but I don't have higher hopes. I am afraid even show's ending will be considered better than his own take.

Some of my theories (which are weak imo):

Tyrion will be crucial in the fight with Da*nerys. He knows enough about dragons and HOW TO KILL THEM. So maybe they'll need him for this.

He'll help and side with Starks. He designed a saddle for Bran in AGOT because Jon asked him (if I remember right) and this was a strong FS of him helping the Starks to have POWER. Even in the show they chose Bran as King after Tyrion's stupid speech. He'll be the one who'll open the way for Bran to become King and maybe Jon will be the one behind this.

Martin just want to diss Tywin even more in his death by leaving Tyrion as his only heir (does Martin have daddy issues because I feel like he does). Even Joff's death makes me sad so I can't talk about poor Tommen and Myrcella. I don't get it.

He'll have some kind of a leverage against the Starks/Westeros. I don't know maybe like sth RLJ? He'll threaten them to expose it in the wrong time. It can be anything, I really can't take a guess right now.

He'll have strong allies. I really can't imagine how or why but this would explain why he'll end up alive and well. Jaime was not punished for killing the Mad King because the monarch changed and his father Tywin played a role in it, also Lannisters were too strong. So sth like this might occur again. Maybe he will win allies by promising them wealth and power. I would accept him as a Hand of a CHILD (!!) too if he promised me sth in return.

Take your pick. They all suck. In any case I can't just accept that the idea of becoming a HAND TO A FCKING CHILD can be considered as a PUNISHMENT.

Is he alive? Yep. So he is free to do whatever he wants. He is not under imprisonment, no one calls him a betrayer/prisoner/criminal, no one tortures him, he is not banished. I really can't imagine how is this all a PUNISHMENT?

Some say that he'll serve as a Hand but no one will appreciate him and it's his punishment but cry me a river. The man committed every crime in the book and this is what he gets??

Da*nerys stan should cancel Grrm for this, not for King/Queen Bran/Sansa but they still can't admit that Tyrion is bad because her majesty can't have bad people around her... she wouldn't fall for him. Lol.

I think Martin could have at least made KARMA find him in end. Imagine Tyrion wakes up in the morning as the Hand of the King and he fcking slips and falls on his head and he dies... the end. More satisfying if you ask me. Also I don't understand why they just can't get rid off him? Oops he died, can you believe.. let's move on. Come on Ary* girl, stick with the pointy end...

Anyway.

I just want to say that I probably won't remember Asoiaf as a satisfying books series even if we somehow manage to have ADOS in the future. I made my peace with that. But it doesn't mean I am not looking forward for future books for my favs like Sansa, Jon, Brienne, Cersei, Jaime, Jeyne, Bran, Sweetrobin etc. I don't trust the author with them either but I just want to take it all (good and bad) and leave it all behind me. I had great time in fandom with great friends and people thanks to these books and it will always a special place in my heart but objectively I am ready to be let down. Bring it on.

Thanks for the ask.

[argelladurrandaun]

I saw your response to that person claiming Arya's ending is to sail away and I wanted to add something to back up how they are wrong. In the beginning of the series GRRM explicitly gives Sansa and Arya a twisted version of their desires at the end of AGOT, a clear "be careful what you wish for" premise. At that point all Sansa wanted was to marry a handsome prince and become queen only for her to regret this because her handsome prince is cruel and violent. Arya while in King's Landing wanted to escape the city and have some sort of adventure, only for her to be forced to escape and her "adventure" to become the stuff of nightmares. So if GRRM went out of his way to establish this than why would he just send Arya out to explore and adventure in the end? And why would he end the series with Sansa desiring the same thing she did in the beginning? Honestly it makes no sense and it would be horrible writing. Like I understand cyclical storytelling, but if you end your story with your character being the exact same in the end as they were in the beginning, IMO that's bad writing and completely nihilistic. Also all the symbolism and themes I've researched about Arya doesn't suggest that type of ending at all. So while Arya may not always be rooted in the same place, I highly doubt she'll sail off on a suicide mission with no plans to return. Honestly, what D&D did to Arya at the end of the show was them subtextually killing her off so the savior of Westeros wouldn't threaten Sansa's claim.

The truth!!!

[fedonciadale]

Master meta post

*** Edit: Please check the pinned post on this blog! This post will not be updated anymore as the original owner of the blog, my mother, has passed away.***

Master meta post

So I decided to put together some of my metas/ask posts (that tend to become metas occasionally) for convenience and pin this post.

I have not yet linked all (obviously), but I will revisit this post once in a while and add links...

Also for my numerous ask - evolved into metas I usually added some that I think are representative.

ASOIAF - Bookwise

Meta series on “Singers singing songs and their impact on character in ASOIAF”: part 1: Jon

part 2: Sansa

part 3: Daenerys

part 4: Starks and Lannisters

An ask about Florian and Jonquil (note the excellent additions!)

What is a bittersweet ending? (x, x, x, x)

Meaning of Ice and Fire

GRRM is not a Nihilist

First men and Children of the Forest

Politics in ASOIAF/GoT

Legitimacy of Kings in Westeros

Claim to the throne, right to the throne and the making of Kings

Daenerys and her understanding of history

Marriage annulment

Northern Independence asks (x, x, x)

Food sharing in Westeros

Parallels to Wars of the Roses

Starks

Sibling dynamics: Everyone was the odd one out once in a while

Sansa and Arya (mostly answers to Did Sansa bully Arya? (x, x)

Succession in the North: Was Sansa disinherited (x, x, x, x, x, x, x, x)

Septa Mordane

Dragons vs. direwolves

Targaryens

Would Jon on the throne mean a Targ restoration?

Why did the Targs practice incest and what are the political repercussions?

Jon Snow’s Targ name

Shipping:

Jonsa, Jon€rys and the logic of shipping

Shipping and canon shipping

Why is Jonsa hated?

Bulverism

Show rants:

Catfight at Winterhell: rant, asks (x)

Annulment of marriages in the Middle Ages

Daenerys and her understanding of history

Doubts prior to season 8

Circular storytelling

The full cirlce of Westeros

Why the endgame doesn’t make sense: 1 (Bran) , 2 (Tyrion), 3 (Arya), 4 (Sansa), 5 (Jon)

Women:

Women in Westeros and misogyny - Cersei

Women in Westeros and misogyny - Brienne

Sansa and Feminism

Arya and her feminitiy

Catelyn the advisor

Comparison of Jonsa with other ships

Jonsa and Jon€rys (my oldest post, Nov 2016)

In General: Incest, Endogamy, Exogamy, Genetic attraction phenomenon

Cousin marriage in the Middle Ages

In-world opinions on Cousin marriage, Targ incest

Does a Jonerys marriage solve any problems?

Foreshadowing for Jonsa, Jon€rys and J0nrya

Jonerys foreshadowing

Why Jonerys is incompatible

Comparison of Jonsa and Jonerys foreshadowing

What was GRRM’s original idea?

J0nrya and the original outline

So called J0nrya foreshadowing (= Jonsa foreshadowing in disguise)

Will there be a Jon€rys baby? (x, x, x, x, x)

Arya and Jonsa, J0nrya reunion

Political J0nrya marriage after Sansa’s death?

J0nrya as a possibility in books and show

Anti Dany/Jon/Sansa threesome for Targ restoration

Anti Sansan 

Anti Sanrion

Does Jon have a crush on Alys?

Alys Karstark as possible marriage candidate

Sansa Stark

The Trident incident (x, x)

The ‘Horseface’ question

Precanon crush?

Sansa is Jon’s type

Arguments against Sansa and “Rickard Forrester” as a rando last minute love interest

The Broken Tower in Winterfell

Sansa’s ‘betrayal’

Sansa won’t be disfigured

Sansa’s wishes

Sansa and the Northerners

Sansa and Alysanne Parallels

Sansa and Lady

Dany and Sansa as foils

Sansa as the ‘original villain‘

Does Sansa trust Littlefinger?

Is Sweetrobin getting poisoned?

Sansa and Sweetrobin

Ned and Cat

The man who passes the sentence

Was Ned in love with Ashara and did he have sex with her?

Ned and Cat as parents

The Starks value life

Literal tropes:

Relationship tropes in GoT and ASOIAF

Accidental incest and secret parentage and their outcoming

The function of secret parentage in fiction

What even is incest?

Jonsa and Beauty and the Beast

Fairy tales:

The trickster cat

The Bear and the Maiden fair

The Pig boy

Allerleirauh

Comparisons with Tolkien:

Beren and Luthien: part 1, part 2, part 3

Aragorn and Arwen

The Girl in Grey:

Various asks on the Girl in Grey (x, x, x, x, x)

DarkDany stuff

Why conquer Westeros at all?

A Storm that hits

Conquerors landing on the shore

Will Dany die as a saviour?

Questioning sharply (Dany’s descent into darkness)

Dany and politics

Dany’s ‘hero’s journey’

Dany and Galadriel

Setting up Dany as a villain: the Leni Riefenstahl connection (mostly @une-nuit-pour-se-souvenir but it started with my ask

Dany is not an abolutionist

Fire and Blood:

Methods of foreshadowing

Alysanne

Jaime

Succession in Fire and Blood

Fire and Blood tidbits

Will Arya kill Dany?

Archmaester Glydaen and his bias

Political Jon

Jon the Player, Jon the Deceiver?

Cersei and Aurane Waters as a parallel to Jon and Da€nerys

Deceiving and Lying Starks

Jon the Negotiator

Jon’s political skill on the show

Starks and their political skills

Asks about Political Jon (x, x, x)

Other:

Jaime Lannister as Hand of the King

Jaime as Hand - Hints in F&B (1, 2)

Tully mud, blood, death and sudden change

Rains of Castamere and the futility of revenge

Stark words and Stark obligations

Parallels to Outlaw King

Crack:

Why we should ship Tormund and Dany

HP Verse:

Everything wrong with the HP verse

Good Slytherins

Internalized misogyny in HP and the girly girl

Is S.P.E.W fake woke?

Grey characters in HP

Classism in the HP verse

Is Draco smart?

Hogwarts sorting: How it should go

JKR’s writing

Arthur Weasley and muggles or classism in HP

On redemption arcs: Draco,

On ships in HP: Fremione and Harmony; Anti Romione

My thoughts on : Ginny, Ron

[jackoshadows]

Ngl I got this odd thought popping up lately. Ofc just armchair psychology and tinfoil so far... but the more I'm alienated by GRRM's gaslight-y, dishonest demeanour he's showing at least since the GoT ending disaster - passive-aggressive, egotistical and maybe even cynical character features become noticable - the more he seems like a person capable of coming up with something as disgusting as the show finale, after all. I know ASOIAF isn't set up well for that at all, but maybe GRRM is...?

Nah, not at all.

The show's ending was rubbish in every possible way. It was not just nonsense from a book reader's POV but also from the POV of general show only watchers. It was nihilistic, 'Subverting expectations' shit with fanservice, dumb jock jokes and character assassination.

I can't stress this enough - Nothing and I mean nothing in the show's final season made sense. Every single character got trashed. Even side characters like the Hound was sacrificed for 'Cleganebowl'. One of GRRM's lead characters Arya had to spend her final season with the Hound because fanservice. The rules of the world was destroyed to get characters to their ending. One cannot even go back and rewatch earlier seasons knowing how these characters end up - there is no point in watching Dany's journey or Bran's or Arya's or Jon's because their endings were completely disconnected from their story in the previous 7 seasons.

The central conflict of the books - The Others and the long Night - was brushed aside in one episode after build up for 8 seasons because D&D loved Lena Headey and wanted her on the show till the end. Jon, Arya and Bran were sidelined because D&D wanted Sophie Turner's Sansa to take center stage due to the backlash they got for combining her story with Jeyne Poole's.

There are three things GRRM told D&D, that they implemented - Stannis burning Shireen, Hodor and Bran on the Iron Throne. Those are the only things that will be the same (but happens in a different way in books) IMO in both the show and books. Everything else is different.

Now whether GRRM is going back and changing things because he wants a different ending to the one he originally envisioned? There is speculation that he is rewriting aspects of the story. However in this case, he's never going to finish because there's so much foreshadowing and clues he has put in the earlier books that his story can only move towards the ending he came up with originally. As he himself said:

I’ve been planting all these clues that the butler did it, then you’re halfway through a series and suddenly thousands of people have figured out that the butler did it, and then you say the chambermaid did it? No, you can’t do that,” Martin reportedly said while addressing whether fan theories and online speculation influence his writing process for the “Song of Ice and Fire” series of novels on which HBO’s adaptation is based.

I think GRRM's ending would be a more optimistic, happier ending than the show's.

[elegantwoes]

What are the parallels between Sansa and Disney Princesses?

That’s a good question, dear anon. Now we know that GRRM has said he was inspired by the stories of medieval France and Burgundy for Sansa, a story that in return inspired Walt Disney to create the Disney princess archetype. That is the first connection Sansa Stark has to Disney Princesses. 

As to who she has parallels with? Well with many but the first one that comes to mind is obviously Princess Ariel from The Little Mermaid and the similarities are uncanny:

red hair and blue eyes

half fish

wants to leave her home

defies her father

Another princess that Sansa has similarities with is Princess Belle from Beauty and the Beast:

bookworm

romantic

beautiful*

wants more in life than staying at home

*Sansa is the character who is called beautiful the most in ASOIAF.

Also, Sansa’s romantic storyline is deeply connected with the tale as old as time. Throughout her arc, Sansa meets many beast-like figures who have some similarities with the Beast: Joffrey, Sandor Clegane, and Tyrion Lannister. However, at the end of the day, these characters are not the beast to Sansa’s beauty. Who Sansa’s true beast is, is yet to be revealed.

There are other princesses that Sansa has strong similarities with. I am talking about the three classical princesses: Snow White, Cinderella, and Aurora. Sansa has the natural charm and innocence of Snow White, the compassion and resourcefulness of Cinderella, and the elegant and graceful bearing of Aurora. 

However there’s another aspect that Sansa shares with these three princesses, especially Cinderella and Snow White, and it’s their ability to hope that things will get better for them and that they will one day experience love. This is something Sansa does from her first chapter in AGOT to her TWOW sample chapter. She never loses the hope that life will get better for her and that she will one day experience love:

This time her eyes met Harry's. She smiled just for him, and said a silent prayer to the Maiden. Please, he doesn't need to love me, just make him like me, just a little, that would be enough for now. (TWOW, Alayne I).

That will be enough for now

That will be enough for now

That will be enough for now

THAT WILL BE ENOUGH FOR NOW.

Even though Sansa knows this is a political match and that Harry doesn’t like her in that way a part of her still hopes their political marriage can grow into something more.

Despite everything Sansa has endured, the sexual trauma, death of her family members, never knowing whether she will go home, she still never loses hope that life will get better for her and that she will experience true love. The fact that Sansa hasn’t lost this hope and dream of hers well into the second last book in this series proves to me she will never lose that hope. 

Honestly why do people even want her to lose this hope? This is what makes Sansa a hero in her own right. GRRM wants us to admire and root for Sansa because she never stops hoping. Just like he admired Snow White, Cinderella and Aurora, as a child. After all these are the Disney heroines he grew up with. No doubt he has an emotional attachment to these three princesses. The fact he designed Sansa Stark so similar them says a lot. It shows that no matter how much antis want to deny it, Sansa Stark is a heroine in the eyes of GRRM. 

The only difference is that, unlike the classical Disney princesses, Sansa’s dreams, hopes, morals and beliefs are genuinely put into question by characters like Joffrey, Cersei, and Sandor. There are times where it seems Sansa loses her hope but in the end she never does. The trauma that Sansa endures is raw, messy, and frankly, very depressing, rather than designed in the careful and clean way that Disney does (and in Disney’s defense, their primary audience is children, so of course they will never delve into the heavy topics GRRM does with ASOIAF). 

However challenging her world view is not the only way GRRM is deconstructing the Disney princess archetype with Sansa. He is also showing the one inevitable journey of the Disney princesses we never see: becoming a queen. In her AFFC arc Sansa takes on the role of Lady of the Eyrie. Anyone who understands how medieval society works knows that running a large castle is not that different from running a country. Sansa’s journey to become queen does not stop here. Once she reaches the North Sansa will no doubt take on the role Lady of Winterfell and there she will:

earn the love of Northerners (both noble and small folk alike)

hone her skills in soft power

learn how hard power and governing works

Once the wall falls and the white walkers come marching down Winterfell will most likely bear most of the onslaught and Sansa will put every skill she has learned so far into good use. Her role in the battle for Dawn will be a vital one. As lady of Winterfell she will be linchpin that holds the war for humanity together. 

Learning how to rule and reclaiming her identity as a Stark are key aspects of Sansa’s narrative arc. In light of that I fully expect her to become either Lady of Winterfell or Queen in the North.

For all the deconstructing and bringing this down to realism that GRRM is doing I fully expect him to reconstruct Sansa’s storyline. After all GRRM is no nihilist and his last book is called a Dream of Spring. Since Sansa is so similar to a Disney princess, especially the classic trio, then her dream of spring will be an end to her suffering and finding true love. 

All in all, Sansa isn’t just a Disney Princess. She is the ultimate Disney Princess. 

[mummer]

i feel like quents story is, to a certain extent, grrm almost apologising jons resurrection before it evens happened? Like quent is a great literary deconstruction in and of himself of course, but if/when jon does get brought back a la “the hero never dies” i feel like quent kinda serves as a grrms acknowledgement of the trope of it all. Like yes i brought the hero back. but look at this poor little guy. look at him. he couldn’t do a direct trope deconstruction so it happened through a proxy

which just makes it way sadder :( because really what separates jon and quentyn. conviction? assertiveness? magic icedragon genes? like, it's not ABOUT 'deserving', which is really sad. like if ppl call asoiaf grimdark just based on quentyn i kind of understand lol. but also the tragedy of it is of course the point.... sometimes people who don't deserve to die will die and not come back! just based on, what, not having genre awareness of the story you're in? and that's miserable :( but also necessary :( :( not all men are meant to dance with dragons but all roads still lead down the dragon's gullet :( im a nihilist now